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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, out louders, it's

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Speaker 2: Holly popping up in your ears today to tell you

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Speaker 2: about our out Loud Sunday special. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to MID, but if not, why not.

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Speaker 2: It's the show that I host that is for gen

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Speaker 2: x women who are anything but and on MED. We

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Speaker 2: have all kinds of conversations about all kinds of things

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Speaker 2: that grown up women have to deal with, and one

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Speaker 2: of them that is very relevant at this time of

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Speaker 2: year is about alcohol. You might be well and truly

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Speaker 2: into the silly season now, Christmas parties, festive lunches, New Years,

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Speaker 2: all of that stuff, and how do you know if

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Speaker 2: your relationship with alcohol is getting a bit out of control.

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Speaker 2: One of the first episodes of MID I did because

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Speaker 2: I knew this was a big topic for gen X women,

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Speaker 2: was with Shana Juan from Sober in the Country, and

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Speaker 2: I talked to her about her story about how she

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Speaker 2: broke up with alcohol in midlife, how she did it,

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Speaker 2: what her life's like now, what had brought her to

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Speaker 2: that point, how do you know if you're drinking too much?

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Speaker 2: It's a really important conversation. And look, if you want

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Speaker 2: more Mid, jump over to the midfeed and there are

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Speaker 2: plenty of episodes about all kinds of things that affect

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Speaker 2: gen X women in that feed, and you can listen

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Speaker 2: via the link in our show notes. Gen X grew

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Speaker 2: up with the cool girls with the drink like the boys,

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Speaker 2: girls with beers and bladders and big fruity cocktails, weekends

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Speaker 2: of blurry bedtimes and painful mornings for what happened last

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Speaker 2: night and examining mystery bruises through a thickening head. Our

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Speaker 2: pinups weren't five am yoga girlies clutching smoothie. We swooned

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Speaker 2: over Kate Moss slinking out from somewhere, drinking one hand,

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Speaker 2: dart in the other, a footloose man at her side.

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Speaker 2: We were messy, sometimes made some bad calls, perhaps woke

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Speaker 2: up with the shame maybe, But that's what fun was,

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Speaker 2: we thought. Then we grew up and there was wine

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Speaker 2: o'clock and Hen's Nights and girls did and Margie's and

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Speaker 2: it's definitely six o'clock somewhere, and pop a bottle and

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Speaker 2: we get knocked down, but we get up again, and

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Speaker 2: then we didn't really go out anymore. But the wine

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Speaker 2: was still in the fridge. And maybe it gets you

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Speaker 2: through those witching hours between five and seven, But then

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Speaker 2: what then? Those hours can be hard and long without

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Speaker 2: the fridge doors swinging open and the sound of the

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Speaker 2: glug glug. Poor, best not think about it. Life's a lot.

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Speaker 2: You deserve a little treat. And it's been the thing

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Speaker 2: that's been there for you at all the big moments,

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Speaker 2: hand in yours as you've grown up, a symbol of summer,

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Speaker 2: of good times, of freedom and holidays and birthdays and

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Speaker 2: christenings and Sunday afternoons just because. And then maybe yes,

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Speaker 2: it's been there hand in yours, in the arguments that

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Speaker 2: should never have been and that thing that you didn't

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Speaker 2: mean to say to your kid, and the shortened temper

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Speaker 2: and the messy memories that you've chased away. It was

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Speaker 2: there at the breakup and on that night you did

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Speaker 2: what you said you wouldn't, and that one your friends

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Speaker 2: still talk about, and you wonder, I think I might

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Speaker 2: have outgrown you alcohol. Why are you still here? Hello,

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Speaker 2: and welcome to mid My name's Holly Wainwright and I

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Speaker 2: am mid midlife, mid family, mid identity crisis. Look, we're

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Speaker 2: here to have the conversations that interest Gen X women

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Speaker 2: because we are anything but mid And the only conversations

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Speaker 2: we've got time for are deep ones, helpful ones, ones

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Speaker 2: that make us we a little bit because we're snort

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Speaker 2: laughing so hard. All of that's okay. And today I'm

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Speaker 2: having one of those kind of conversations with Shanna. One

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Speaker 2: about Generation X is complicated relationship with alcohol. We drink

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Speaker 2: more than the generation above and the generation below. And

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Speaker 2: here's where I put up my hand and say that

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Speaker 2: I am not sober. I am not a sober member

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Speaker 2: of Generation X. Alcohol definitely plays a role in my life,

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Speaker 2: as I say to Shanna, but she told me that

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Speaker 2: ninety percent of the people who seek help from her

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Speaker 2: organization sober in the country or women aged between forty

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Speaker 2: and sixty.

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Speaker 1: That's us.

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Speaker 2: Friends. You might have heard Shanna speak before on Australian

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Speaker 2: Story or on MEA's No Filter. You might have seen

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Speaker 2: her accepting an award for Australian of the Year, Local

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Speaker 2: Hero or Mary Clare's Advocate of the Year. You might

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Speaker 2: have even seen her representing Australia on the international stage

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Speaker 2: at the funeral of the Queen of England. Because all

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Speaker 2: of those things have happened, Shanna is a big deal

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Speaker 2: in the sober world, not that you'd ever hear her

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Speaker 2: saying that, because she took her own life experience as

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Speaker 2: a former self described small town drunk and turned it

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Speaker 2: into an organization that helps others. It was twenty fifteen

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Speaker 2: when Shanna made the decision to give up drinking, a

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Speaker 2: decision that she says saved her life, and she started

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Speaker 2: Sober in the Country. It's a grassroots charity with a

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Speaker 2: simple mission to ensure all our mates know that it's

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Speaker 2: okay to say no to booze in the bush. And

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Speaker 2: if you want to hear the whole story about how

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Speaker 2: that happened, we'll put the link to Shanna's conversation on

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Speaker 2: no Filter in the show notes. But if you're thinking, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is going to be about people who live in

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Speaker 2: the country, well it is, but not only because Shanner's

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Speaker 2: messages about alcohol are very relevant and might resonate with

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Speaker 2: you no matter where you are. Shanna, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for coming on to talk to us on mid

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Speaker 2: I want to jump right in with this question, right,

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Speaker 2: because I've been told that around eighty percent of the

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Speaker 2: people who come to your peer support group, Sober in

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Speaker 2: the Country are women age between forty and sixty. Is

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Speaker 2: that true?

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Speaker 1: It is true, Holly, it is and it's a statistic

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Speaker 1: that never ceases to make me feel a bit sad.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, my age group are the greatest portion of

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Speaker 1: our peer support network, which we call the bush Tribe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so tell me a little bit about the bush

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Speaker 2: Tribe first, so that people can get a picture of

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about. Give me a bit of a

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Speaker 2: snapshot of what you've been doing for the past gosh,

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Speaker 2: is it nine years now?

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Speaker 1: It's heading towards ten years since I personally said see

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Speaker 1: you later. Tabooze Sober in the Country was effectively registered

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Speaker 1: as a national charity in late twenty nineteen after Australian

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Speaker 1: Story did an episode on us. Myself is a human being.

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Speaker 1: I've been having these conversations since twenty fifteen, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're heading on towards a decade.

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Speaker 2: Shanna, if you don't mind me asking how old were

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Speaker 2: you in twenty fifteen?

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Speaker 1: When you oh, shivers, are you going to make me

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Speaker 1: do that? I turned fifty pc years, so it.

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Speaker 2: Was around forty, around forty, yeah, around forty. Your own

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Speaker 2: story also fits into this kind of demo of the

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Speaker 2: forty to sixty year old women going hold on this

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Speaker 2: is not working.

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Speaker 1: It very much does. And as I read, and I've

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Speaker 1: probably said forty eight million times, I share my own

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Speaker 1: story of overcoming alcohol addiction and suffering from that battle,

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Speaker 1: not because it's unique and not because I'm special, but

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Speaker 1: precisely because of the opposite, because my story is horrifyingly,

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Speaker 1: horrifyingly common, and it's especially horrifyingly common in my age group.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so to to go back and just I

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Speaker 1: guess give you the blurb on the charity, so Sober

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Speaker 1: in the Country is a bush charity and we exist

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Speaker 1: to raise awareness and have conversations around alcohol heim in

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Speaker 1: rural and remote Australia. And our primary purpose in a

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Speaker 1: snapshot is to aim for a future rural Australia in

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Speaker 1: which our mates know it's always okay to say no, thanks,

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Speaker 1: no thanks, to be or not today right. Our okay

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Speaker 1: to say no hashtag is what we roll out with.

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Speaker 1: But of course, underneath that friendly, happy, very inclusive hashtag

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Speaker 1: is a much small serious chat. Your listeners might be thinking, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't need to listen to this if it's about

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Speaker 1: the bush. It's actually a universal chat. Alcohol harm is

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Speaker 1: an issue globally and nationally. We just happen to focus

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Speaker 1: on the rural sector. But this chat it's relevant to

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Speaker 1: any of your listeners in that space.

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Speaker 2: Of course, when you talk about why you started sober

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Speaker 2: in the country, you talk about obviously the isolation that

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Speaker 2: people in the bush face when it comes to this,

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Speaker 2: and the sometimes lack of resources. But drinking isolates a

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Speaker 2: lot of people no matter where they are right So

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Speaker 2: it's this thing of people feeling like they're struggling alone,

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Speaker 2: even if they are right in the middle of the city.

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Speaker 2: I know that everybody's story is individual, but as you've

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Speaker 2: already said, your particular story and coming to ask for

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Speaker 2: help when you're forty is quite typical. What's the kind

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Speaker 2: of average reason that a woman in our age group

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Speaker 2: finally goes it's time. I need to try and address this,

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Speaker 2: because I've also heard you say that it can take

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Speaker 2: twenty years for people to recognize that their relationship with

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Speaker 2: alcohol is problematic. Could you pay me a bit of

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Speaker 2: a picture of a kind of average story that might

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Speaker 2: bring somebody to your door.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what, I'll use myself as an

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Speaker 1: example just because that way I can't get it wrong.

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Speaker 1: But I am very typical, as we've discussed with my demographics.

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Speaker 1: So Shannawan enters the world or back then, Shannon Rowlands

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Speaker 1: enters the world bright eyed, bushy child. I've got the

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Speaker 1: world at my feet. I've got a loving family in

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Speaker 1: my case, which confuses a lot of people, right because

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Speaker 1: they think the only people who can end up suicidal

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Speaker 1: and almost dead from addiction are people who've had a

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Speaker 1: rotten childhood. That's a common misnomer. In my eighteenth year,

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Speaker 1: as we discuss and explore in Mamma Mea, I experience

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Speaker 1: multiple sexual assaults and rape and trauma. So I turned

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Speaker 1: to alcohol because it's prevalent, and it's abundant, and it's everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and I learn very quickly if I have a few drinks,

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Speaker 1: my inhibitions are dropped, My worries peer to go into

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Speaker 1: a different realm where they're not, as you know, prevalent

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Speaker 1: and ever constantine. Voila entering the era where I use

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Speaker 1: alcohol to self medicate. But because I'm beautiful and I'm

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Speaker 1: young and I'm perceived as a fun party girl. No

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Speaker 1: one perceives or looks at that as a red flag

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Speaker 1: or an issue because all of us in that age

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Speaker 1: group are partying really really hard. Yes, I mean you know,

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Speaker 1: like that's it was normal, wasn't it? It was normal?

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Speaker 2: And also I think that almost for our generation, because

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Speaker 2: I think this is shifting happily. But it was almost

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Speaker 2: like proving that you could party with the boys, whether

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Speaker 2: that was in your setting in the bush, which is

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Speaker 2: a very particular kind of testosterone fueled environment, but there

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Speaker 2: are testosterone fueled environments everywhere, and certainly I grew up

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Speaker 2: in a city in England and being able to drink

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Speaker 2: with the boys and being able to drink like a

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Speaker 2: bloke and being a good time party person was high status.

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Speaker 2: Like it was whether or not you were doing it

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Speaker 2: to cover up your own insecurities or to get past

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Speaker 2: the trauma from it was kind of irrelevant. It was

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Speaker 2: seen as a good time, So please go on. You

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Speaker 2: were saying it was seen like it wasn't a pride.

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Speaker 1: It's a badge of honor, hey, isn't it. It's like right,

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Speaker 1: So there's the trauma factor, there's that I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: fit in in this extremely male dominated environment where no

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Speaker 1: one's going to take me seriously. Maybe if I do

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Speaker 1: this it'll help and fit it. You know, I can

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Speaker 1: fit in exactly what you've just said. And so you

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Speaker 1: look at a person who ends up in addiction and

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Speaker 1: they don't wake up one day and think, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I'd quite like to be that person who's on the

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Speaker 1: edge of suicide and had enough with life and wants

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Speaker 1: to check out. But that's where I was at age forty,

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Speaker 1: and as I share anytime I do a keynote talk

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Speaker 1: or do social media posts or whatever, this is a

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Speaker 1: twenty year discent. It began here, but it ended there,

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Speaker 1: and so is the complex nature of alcohol abuse, me

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Speaker 1: huse and finally addiction. It's a sliding scale and it

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Speaker 1: begins over here, but it ends there. And for me,

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Speaker 1: I was in that absolute classic statistic of a person

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Speaker 1: who took between eighteen and twenty years to seek support.

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Speaker 1: And I believe that statistic is what it is because

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Speaker 1: of what we've just discussed over here. It's seen as

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Speaker 1: completely normal. But at the end, when you're the forty

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Speaker 1: year old woman passing out at a dinner party or

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Speaker 1: doing humiliating, you know, extremely embarrassing things in public. You're

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Speaker 1: no longer able to slip under that radar of party girl,

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Speaker 1: fun girl, because you're now you're now forty. It's not

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Speaker 1: so funny anymore. It's actually embarrassing and noticeable, which in

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Speaker 1: itself is a whole ridiculous issue of complexities, because it

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Speaker 1: really is. It shouldn't be age relevant, should it.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like it's not cute anymore, Like it

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Speaker 2: was cute there for a while, but now it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we should be worried about her. And if you throw

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Speaker 2: in that often, you know, for a lot of us,

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Speaker 2: these issues can they might take you through motherhood or

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Speaker 2: marriage or divorce or whatever. You know, you're kind of

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Speaker 2: juggling these things, but the alcohol use is still there.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you the idea that it takes

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Speaker 2: between eighteen twenty years, and as you say that where

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Speaker 2: you may end up might be somewhere quite extreme.

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Speaker 1: But for some women it's not.

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Speaker 2: Necessarily that they're at a very extreme end, but it's

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Speaker 2: that they're unable to let go of that crutch. And yes,

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Speaker 2: I know that in your conversation with me, you do

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Speaker 2: talk about a rock bottom moment for you that brought

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Speaker 2: you to the point where you were like, this time,

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Speaker 2: I have.

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Speaker 1: To get help or I die.

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Speaker 2: Yes, do you think and does your experience talking to

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Speaker 2: women about this is that What is the usual catalyst

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Speaker 2: for somebody putting their hand up in this age bracket

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Speaker 2: and going, actually, I've got to change this or can

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Speaker 2: it sometimes be something less dramatic?

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for raising that. Holy it's such

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Speaker 1: a great question. It can be one hundred things at

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Speaker 1: any given point in time. One of the most difficult

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Speaker 1: aspects of raising conversations around alcohol harm and addiction is

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Speaker 1: this pervasive message that we are fed that the only

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Speaker 1: reason you should ever quit alcohol is if you are

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Speaker 1: someone in addiction or you've had a rock bottom crisis moment.

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Speaker 1: And that is such rubbish. That is such a lie

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Speaker 1: that we are fed from society. So my answer to

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Speaker 1: that is no, and happily and thank god for advocates

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Speaker 1: like me or other charities or other social media influencers.

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Speaker 1: There are women across the globe and rural Australia and

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Speaker 1: inner city Australia who are now going Wow, thanks to

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Speaker 1: that awareness, that education, that information and that stuff that

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Speaker 1: is really resonating with me. I'm going to have a

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Speaker 1: good hard look at where I'm at with my drinking.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not in a rock bottom se scenario. But

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Speaker 1: when I think about it, and when I'm really honest

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Speaker 1: about it, I can't actually finish my workday without having

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Speaker 1: one or two big glasses of wine. Holy crap? Is

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Speaker 1: that a thing? Is that a problem? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And what's so interesting about all the conversations we've generated

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Speaker 1: is that those people who've had the capacity to have

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Speaker 1: a really good, honest look at their relationship with alcohol,

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Speaker 1: they're going, I actually don't know how to do life

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Speaker 1: without alcohol. Whether it's one glass or one bottle or

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Speaker 1: three bottles, as was my case, doesn't matter if alcohol

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Speaker 1: is not serving your family, your health, your relationships, your finances,

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Speaker 1: your work life, balance, your whatever. And if it's an issue,

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Speaker 1: it's an issue, it doesn't have to be a rock

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Speaker 1: bottom moment. And so I would hazard a guess, Holly,

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Speaker 1: that historically we only looked at it when it was

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Speaker 1: a rock bottom crisis moment, because historically we've had this

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Speaker 1: booze worshiping mentality in Australia where you are a legend

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Speaker 1: if you're Holly or Shanna and you can drink two

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Speaker 1: bottles of wine without going into a coma. Or you're

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Speaker 1: the blokeout in the backyards at the cattle station who

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Speaker 1: can sink a bottle of rump and still be upright

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Speaker 1: and chase a beast. It's ridiculous, right. We just have

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Speaker 1: this hero worship of grog that has meant people didn't

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Speaker 1: seek help before because it.

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Speaker 2: Was you know, it's interesting, isn't it, Because it's complicated,

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Speaker 2: that hero worship, because as you've said about the party

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Speaker 2: girl and how there's a tipping point where she's no

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Speaker 2: longer to be celebrated but to be kind of pitied

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Speaker 2: and denigrated and maybe taken advantage of where there are

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Speaker 2: points in our life where we shift, so you can

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Speaker 2: move from party girl to like the mummy wine time idea.

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Speaker 2: And I'd love to explore that a bit because what

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Speaker 2: I noticed very much in my peer group, and I

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Speaker 2: want to be really honest here, I am not sober.

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Speaker 2: I do drink. I don't drink to excess, but it

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Speaker 2: is part of my social life, there is no question

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Speaker 2: about that. And so one of my interests in exploring

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Speaker 2: this is that idea of because there's all of my

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Speaker 2: peer group around me. We have all grown up with

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Speaker 2: alcohol being part of our identity because we're part of

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Speaker 2: that binge drinking culture, and we're all sort of stepping

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Speaker 2: back and questioning it a bit now and going, oh,

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Speaker 2: what does it look like without it? But once you've

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Speaker 2: moved out of party girl, sometimes what slips in there

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Speaker 2: is wine o' clock. Right, you're not going out anymore necessarily,

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Speaker 2: But maybe it's the big glass of wine that helps

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Speaker 2: you get the kids into the bath or whatever, or

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Speaker 2: it's the big glass of wine that is that. And

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Speaker 2: I know that I've had to unpick this that there

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Speaker 2: is the marcation point between work day or parenting day

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Speaker 2: and me time, relaxed time is a glass of wine.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that the way that we talk about that,

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Speaker 2: and the memes and the jokes and their mummy juice

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Speaker 2: glasses that you can get and all that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: do you think that's almost as pun It's just as

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Speaker 2: dangerous as the kind of you idolizing the footballer who

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Speaker 2: can down twenty five beers on a flight kind of

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Speaker 2: drinking culture.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I'll just chuck it in here that

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Speaker 1: neither myself nor sober in the country. Are anti alcohol

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Speaker 1: prohibitionists in our approach? Right? My husband drinks a beer.

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Speaker 1: He loves a beer. He's one of these magical, bizarre

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Speaker 1: humans who can have one or two drinks and leave

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Speaker 1: it at that. Oh my god, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: people do it. Right. So anyway, I don't believe in

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Speaker 1: prohibition as effective. I don't think it's ever gonna work

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Speaker 1: if we go at things with extremes. So anyway, that's

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Speaker 1: that out of the way. So I don't judge you,

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Speaker 1: and I don't judge you. I don't judge anyone else. However,

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Speaker 1: I am always asking whether it's through again as myself

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Speaker 1: as a human, or through our social media. I'm always

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Speaker 1: saying and challenging people. Can we not glorify deadly drinking? Please?

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Speaker 1: Can we not do that with our social media? I'll

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Speaker 1: give you a class example, Holly. There's this trend that

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's been and gone or if

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Speaker 1: it's still happening, but you know, there's massive Stanley sippy

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Speaker 1: cups and people make a meme where they pour at

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Speaker 1: least a bottle of wine into a monstrous cup. They

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Speaker 1: cut a tea bag string, right, and drop it and

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Speaker 1: so that they're pretending they're having a cuppa, And then

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Speaker 1: the meme is that they're at kids sport while not

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Speaker 1: sacrificing mummy juice or mummy wine. And I've got to

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Speaker 1: tell you, everything in me just wants to curl up

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Speaker 1: and die, and I just find myself going, please don't.

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Speaker 1: And the worst thing is I got to stick my

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Speaker 1: own hand in there and say, that is exactly what

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Speaker 1: I would have perpetuated once upon a time. Once upon

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Speaker 1: a time, I was the human who if someone else

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Speaker 1: sat down next to me and said, no thanks, I'm right,

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Speaker 1: I would have said, what you're not drinking? What's wrong

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Speaker 1: with you? Are you pregnant? Have you got a problem?

367
00:20:06,807 --> 00:20:09,767
Speaker 1: I was that ignorant person, and I in that and

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Speaker 1: I totally claim it because it's exactly what I did.

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Speaker 1: And I had no clue at the time how pernicious

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Speaker 1: and how much of the culture of idolizing alcohol that

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Speaker 1: was feeding into and so on the other side of

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Speaker 1: that fence. And when I see, like, I'm okay, I

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Speaker 1: haven't wanted a drink in ten years, What a bloody

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing that is. I don't care about it, don't

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Speaker 1: think about it, don't want it, donate it. I could

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Speaker 1: never do this job if that was the torture I

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Speaker 1: lived daily. What I do know, though, is that there

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Speaker 1: are people who do live with that hell and that

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Speaker 1: torture daily. So imagine, imagine one of your best mates

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Speaker 1: in your mummy circle is having a silent and deadly

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Speaker 1: battle and is quietly attending say AA meetings in city

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Speaker 1: and then going to soccer on a weekend and having

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Speaker 1: this shoved in their face twenty four to seven. Those

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Speaker 1: are the people I think of when I see those

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Speaker 1: memes that I just I just feel so bloody sad.

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Speaker 1: And I know the intent isn't evil and bad and dreadful.

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Speaker 1: I know that I get that, But regardless, the knock

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Speaker 1: on effect of that worshiping and the sharing of those

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Speaker 1: memes buy some really high level influences. It is contributing

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Speaker 1: to harm and there's no question about it. So what

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Speaker 1: do we do? How do we change it?

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Speaker 2: I wanted to know how you know if you've got

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Speaker 2: a problem with alcohol, particularly when wine culture is everywhere

394
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Speaker 2: around you telling you it's normal, that's coming up after

395
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Speaker 2: the break, if you are struggling, Because we've already discussed

396
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Speaker 2: this for most of us, it might take a long

397
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Speaker 2: time for us to because you say, and I heard

398
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Speaker 2: you talk to me about this, that for ten years now,

399
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Speaker 2: since you've become sober, as you say, you haven't been

400
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Speaker 2: battling with it, but you battled for twenty years, like

401
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Speaker 2: as in battling with the urge that you battled for

402
00:22:06,727 --> 00:22:10,807
Speaker 2: twenty years before that. Right, So, people who are questioning

403
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Speaker 2: their drinking or realizing that it's making their life hard,

404
00:22:13,367 --> 00:22:15,407
Speaker 2: but they're kind of trying to picture what life might

405
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Speaker 2: look like on the other side. And I really want

406
00:22:17,647 --> 00:22:20,087
Speaker 2: to talk to you about that in a minute. If

407
00:22:20,087 --> 00:22:22,887
Speaker 2: they're seeing everywhere around them and I'm sure that I'm

408
00:22:22,927 --> 00:22:25,607
Speaker 2: guilty of this in my social circle. Oh I really

409
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Speaker 2: need a wine. Oh time to you know the mummy

410
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Speaker 2: paw that's this big and all those things. It's like, oh, okay,

411
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Speaker 2: maybe I don't have a problem. Maybe it's all fine.

412
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Speaker 2: Maybe everybody's like this. It's like a because you're always

413
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Speaker 2: in a battle of justification, right with your own behaviors

414
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Speaker 2: that you kind of know deep down are not serving

415
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Speaker 2: you anymore, but you're looking for validation at every turn.

416
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's such a common thing. Something that's

417
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Speaker 1: really encouraging. That I would love your listeners to understand

418
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Speaker 1: is that when we all choose to make the smallest changes,

419
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Speaker 1: you will see me bang on about these through our

420
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Speaker 1: socials as well. We're not anti alcohol, we're just anti

421
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Speaker 1: alcohol harm. And when we make small changes, whether it's

422
00:23:09,047 --> 00:23:12,927
Speaker 1: through social media or for instance, here's an example, Let's

423
00:23:12,967 --> 00:23:16,887
Speaker 1: say Ladies Day at the Rugby is coming, almost inevitably,

424
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Speaker 1: what we will see is an invitation that's gets dropped

425
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Speaker 1: into the stratosphere that says all you can drink tickets

426
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Speaker 1: two hundred dollars, blah blah blah. When we see a

427
00:23:26,127 --> 00:23:30,207
Speaker 1: change as simple as drinks tickets two hundred dollars, non

428
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Speaker 1: alcoholic options fifty five dollars or one hundred dollars or

429
00:23:34,087 --> 00:23:36,367
Speaker 1: whatever the hell it might be, there's suddenly there's this

430
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Speaker 1: inclusion for a non drinker. How powerful, how simple, how effective?

431
00:23:41,847 --> 00:23:45,047
Speaker 1: But because once again, at a societal level, at almost

432
00:23:45,047 --> 00:23:48,327
Speaker 1: every turn, it's in our faces that the expectation is

433
00:23:48,367 --> 00:23:51,887
Speaker 1: holy and Shanner and every single person is drinking, drinking, drinking, drinking.

434
00:23:52,487 --> 00:23:54,247
Speaker 1: When you're the one not drinking, you feel like an

435
00:23:54,247 --> 00:23:59,047
Speaker 1: absolute friggin weirdo, and you already are struggling with this battle,

436
00:23:59,087 --> 00:24:02,087
Speaker 1: as you said before, and for some people it's been

437
00:24:02,167 --> 00:24:05,367
Speaker 1: going on for a decade and they're still working it

438
00:24:05,407 --> 00:24:09,327
Speaker 1: out and they're floundering and they're struggling. And instead of

439
00:24:09,327 --> 00:24:14,727
Speaker 1: of having people at every corner trying to metaphorically jam

440
00:24:14,767 --> 00:24:18,527
Speaker 1: alcohol down our necks, if we've got leaders and people

441
00:24:19,207 --> 00:24:22,047
Speaker 1: and influencers saying if you're not drinking, it's okay, it's

442
00:24:22,087 --> 00:24:24,367
Speaker 1: okay to say no, it's all good. Have one of these,

443
00:24:24,447 --> 00:24:27,647
Speaker 1: have a zero ol beer or have a sparkling water.

444
00:24:28,927 --> 00:24:32,647
Speaker 1: Suddenly that terror that I'm feeling as a human contemplating

445
00:24:32,647 --> 00:24:37,327
Speaker 1: where I'm at is massively reduced, and it's normalized, and

446
00:24:37,367 --> 00:24:41,847
Speaker 1: there's just so many ways we can make positive inroads.

447
00:24:42,167 --> 00:24:45,167
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting point about things like that. It's like,

448
00:24:45,207 --> 00:24:48,047
Speaker 2: if it's right from the get go, or you cannot drink,

449
00:24:48,087 --> 00:24:50,367
Speaker 2: and it's this one hundred percent. And it's interesting because

450
00:24:50,407 --> 00:24:53,567
Speaker 2: I think generations younger than us a nailing this. You know,

451
00:24:53,567 --> 00:24:56,727
Speaker 2: they're saying that non alcoholic drinks is the fastest growing

452
00:24:56,767 --> 00:24:57,967
Speaker 2: sector and all that stuff.

453
00:24:58,327 --> 00:25:02,847
Speaker 1: Can I quickly add if someone is in the contemplation phase,

454
00:25:02,887 --> 00:25:06,607
Speaker 1: they're reducing them moderating their switching drinks whatever whatever you

455
00:25:06,727 --> 00:25:09,247
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Holly, and I think this is a super

456
00:25:09,247 --> 00:25:13,487
Speaker 1: important one. To have alcohol free or zero elk beer,

457
00:25:13,527 --> 00:25:18,727
Speaker 1: wine and spirits. Can you please just be super careful

458
00:25:18,767 --> 00:25:22,207
Speaker 1: with those if that's your choice. And I say that

459
00:25:22,367 --> 00:25:26,047
Speaker 1: because those of us who've battled and are at the

460
00:25:26,367 --> 00:25:32,047
Speaker 1: more problematic addiction stage of alcohol, right when we're consuming

461
00:25:32,087 --> 00:25:35,447
Speaker 1: things that replicate perfectly the taste and the smell and

462
00:25:35,487 --> 00:25:38,807
Speaker 1: the ritual of alcohol at five pm, where do you reckon?

463
00:25:38,847 --> 00:25:42,687
Speaker 1: That can go very very quickly. So just be really

464
00:25:42,767 --> 00:25:46,607
Speaker 1: mindful of falling for the marketing behind those drinks, which

465
00:25:46,647 --> 00:25:50,807
Speaker 1: is extremely cleverly designed to say, if you're chasing some moderation,

466
00:25:51,367 --> 00:25:54,207
Speaker 1: do this, try that, do this, Just be super careful

467
00:25:54,287 --> 00:25:55,647
Speaker 1: of replicating alcohol.

468
00:25:55,807 --> 00:25:58,327
Speaker 2: Do they have a place in helping you in a

469
00:25:58,407 --> 00:26:01,847
Speaker 2: social transition? Do you think, I mean some people, for

470
00:26:01,967 --> 00:26:04,367
Speaker 2: some people who have that kind of issue of I'm

471
00:26:04,367 --> 00:26:06,847
Speaker 2: standing around at a barbecue, at least I've got a

472
00:26:06,927 --> 00:26:07,687
Speaker 2: drink in my hand.

473
00:26:07,927 --> 00:26:11,047
Speaker 1: They absolutely do for some And so the whole thing

474
00:26:11,087 --> 00:26:14,487
Speaker 1: with the spectrum of alcohol addiction, zero ELK drinks, etc.

475
00:26:14,847 --> 00:26:17,287
Speaker 1: There's no black and white. There's only a million shades

476
00:26:17,327 --> 00:26:20,727
Speaker 1: of gray. I could tell you firsthand of endless stories

477
00:26:20,767 --> 00:26:24,327
Speaker 1: of people who are at that other problematic end towards

478
00:26:24,367 --> 00:26:27,727
Speaker 1: you know, the chronic addiction, end stage addiction, and they've

479
00:26:27,767 --> 00:26:30,727
Speaker 1: turned to zero elk imitation drinks and they've had a

480
00:26:30,727 --> 00:26:34,167
Speaker 1: relapse that they haven't come back from. They're really, really,

481
00:26:34,207 --> 00:26:36,647
Speaker 1: really problematic in that regard. They have a place for

482
00:26:36,767 --> 00:26:41,127
Speaker 1: some Absolutely they really do. If in doubt have a

483
00:26:41,167 --> 00:26:44,847
Speaker 1: sparkling soda, water and lemon. Don't go near stuff that

484
00:26:44,927 --> 00:26:48,767
Speaker 1: imitates alcohol is just it can be very, very dangerous.

485
00:26:49,007 --> 00:26:50,967
Speaker 1: I'm ten years in and I will not touch them

486
00:26:50,967 --> 00:26:53,647
Speaker 1: with a barge pole. Absolutely will not go near them.

487
00:26:54,487 --> 00:26:57,527
Speaker 2: Seana, if someone's listening to this and they know that

488
00:26:57,567 --> 00:27:00,327
Speaker 2: their relationship with alcohol is tipping or has tipped into

489
00:27:00,407 --> 00:27:04,167
Speaker 2: unhealthy territory, and they're saying to themselves, but you know,

490
00:27:04,287 --> 00:27:06,927
Speaker 2: I can do dry July if I have to, or

491
00:27:07,007 --> 00:27:10,007
Speaker 2: I don't drink Monday to Wednesday, or I don't or

492
00:27:10,047 --> 00:27:12,407
Speaker 2: you know, I only drink blood. You know, I think

493
00:27:12,407 --> 00:27:17,127
Speaker 2: we put a lot of excuses justifications things around our drinking,

494
00:27:17,247 --> 00:27:20,447
Speaker 2: even if we deep down know We've talked about how

495
00:27:20,447 --> 00:27:23,847
Speaker 2: there's a sort of a spectrum, but is there a

496
00:27:23,967 --> 00:27:26,847
Speaker 2: question you should ask yourself to know whether or not

497
00:27:26,967 --> 00:27:28,687
Speaker 2: you do need to put your hand up for help?

498
00:27:28,767 --> 00:27:29,847
Speaker 2: Or is it not that simple?

499
00:27:30,287 --> 00:27:31,807
Speaker 1: Do you know what I used to do? I used

500
00:27:31,847 --> 00:27:33,367
Speaker 1: to google? Am I an alcohol?

501
00:27:33,847 --> 00:27:35,887
Speaker 2: About a lot of people listening to this A.

502
00:27:36,047 --> 00:27:39,247
Speaker 1: Lot of people, right, I'll tell you the litmus test, Holly.

503
00:27:39,327 --> 00:27:42,247
Speaker 1: That seems to be pretty fail proof. If you think

504
00:27:42,287 --> 00:27:44,767
Speaker 1: there's a problem, there's probably a problem.

505
00:27:44,887 --> 00:27:45,127
Speaker 2: Yeah.

506
00:27:45,167 --> 00:27:50,047
Speaker 1: Honestly, people without an issue or problem with alcohol don't

507
00:27:50,087 --> 00:27:52,447
Speaker 1: ask themselves if they have a problem or an issue

508
00:27:52,487 --> 00:27:54,647
Speaker 1: with alcohol. It's that simple.

509
00:27:54,807 --> 00:27:57,447
Speaker 2: If you're in your forties fifties and you're realizing that

510
00:27:57,487 --> 00:28:00,607
Speaker 2: you need to address alcohol, likely alcohol has been part

511
00:28:00,647 --> 00:28:03,367
Speaker 2: of your identity, as we've already discussed in various ways,

512
00:28:03,367 --> 00:28:06,647
Speaker 2: whether that's party girl, mum culture, whatever, it is wine

513
00:28:06,687 --> 00:28:09,607
Speaker 2: time for a long time. And one of the things

514
00:28:09,607 --> 00:28:12,367
Speaker 2: that I know to be true is this thing of like,

515
00:28:12,487 --> 00:28:14,447
Speaker 2: but who am I without drinking?

516
00:28:14,527 --> 00:28:14,607
Speaker 1: Like?

517
00:28:14,727 --> 00:28:18,167
Speaker 2: How do I celebrate without drinking? Alcohol has been with

518
00:28:18,247 --> 00:28:22,927
Speaker 2: me at every birthday, party, every wedding, every summer holiday.

519
00:28:23,287 --> 00:28:26,927
Speaker 2: You know, it's like it's become in our culture and

520
00:28:27,007 --> 00:28:30,407
Speaker 2: in some other cultures around the world, it's synonymous with celebration,

521
00:28:30,607 --> 00:28:34,127
Speaker 2: with relaxation, with having good time. And I imagine that

522
00:28:34,127 --> 00:28:36,607
Speaker 2: this must be particularly tricky in the bush in a

523
00:28:36,647 --> 00:28:39,247
Speaker 2: way because pubs are kind of like the community center,

524
00:28:39,367 --> 00:28:42,047
Speaker 2: aren't they. They're like, they're the place where everybody goes.

525
00:28:42,087 --> 00:28:45,327
Speaker 2: It's where you meet people, it's where everybody connects. So

526
00:28:45,927 --> 00:28:48,607
Speaker 2: what do you say to people who are struggling with

527
00:28:48,607 --> 00:28:50,727
Speaker 2: that thing of like, but who even am I if

528
00:28:50,767 --> 00:28:53,487
Speaker 2: I'm not drinking? And can I be in the world?

529
00:28:54,087 --> 00:28:56,327
Speaker 1: So I'm going to tackle this one as a city

530
00:28:56,447 --> 00:29:00,007
Speaker 1: versus rural issue because this is where the really obvious

531
00:29:00,047 --> 00:29:03,247
Speaker 1: gap happens. So let's say you, as Holly, decide you're

532
00:29:03,287 --> 00:29:07,407
Speaker 1: going to become a human who doesn't drink, and you

533
00:29:08,007 --> 00:29:11,047
Speaker 1: have the option. Let's say if you're in let's say

534
00:29:11,047 --> 00:29:15,207
Speaker 1: you're in Bondi or inner city Sydney, right, and it's

535
00:29:15,287 --> 00:29:20,287
Speaker 1: weird for you in your yoga class or your surfing group,

536
00:29:20,607 --> 00:29:24,167
Speaker 1: or your book club or whatever. Course, everyone's a raging

537
00:29:24,207 --> 00:29:25,807
Speaker 1: piss head book.

538
00:29:25,607 --> 00:29:28,127
Speaker 2: Clubs, right, and that's another place where everyone goes, Oh

539
00:29:28,167 --> 00:29:29,407
Speaker 2: you mean wine club.

540
00:29:29,207 --> 00:29:33,367
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, exactly exactly. So Holly decides, you know what,

541
00:29:33,447 --> 00:29:35,807
Speaker 1: I actually can't do this because there's too much grog.

542
00:29:35,847 --> 00:29:40,087
Speaker 1: In all of these situations, the beauty is you might

543
00:29:40,127 --> 00:29:42,687
Speaker 1: be able to go one suburb over and find a

544
00:29:42,727 --> 00:29:46,407
Speaker 1: new surf club, a new book club, a new yoga class.

545
00:29:46,887 --> 00:29:49,567
Speaker 1: You might actually be able to find this plethora of

546
00:29:49,647 --> 00:29:52,327
Speaker 1: face to face recovery support meetings because you're in the

547
00:29:52,407 --> 00:29:55,847
Speaker 1: city where there is such a notion as anonymity. Praise

548
00:29:55,927 --> 00:30:02,487
Speaker 1: be how wonderful you suddenly have choices, services, support, options, connection.

549
00:30:03,327 --> 00:30:07,927
Speaker 1: Now let's take case studies Shannawan, a woman who has

550
00:30:08,007 --> 00:30:11,447
Speaker 1: indeed had alcohol heart and soul and center of her identity,

551
00:30:11,807 --> 00:30:15,727
Speaker 1: her whole life as the wild party girl. Who is

552
00:30:15,767 --> 00:30:20,607
Speaker 1: she without alcohol? Well, bloody good question. I'm still figuring

553
00:30:20,647 --> 00:30:23,167
Speaker 1: that out ten years down the track. And what I

554
00:30:23,207 --> 00:30:26,247
Speaker 1: will tell you is it in rural and regional and

555
00:30:26,327 --> 00:30:30,007
Speaker 1: even some of our bigger regional cities, right, it is

556
00:30:30,167 --> 00:30:35,167
Speaker 1: an incredibly difficult journey for people because we do not

557
00:30:35,287 --> 00:30:37,887
Speaker 1: have the option of being anonymous. We do not have

558
00:30:37,927 --> 00:30:42,207
Speaker 1: the option of changing our crowd, our gathering places, our

559
00:30:42,247 --> 00:30:46,127
Speaker 1: friends groups, our schools, yoga classes. Whatever. What you get

560
00:30:46,287 --> 00:30:48,367
Speaker 1: is what you get, and you've got it for life.

561
00:30:48,407 --> 00:30:51,647
Speaker 1: And so you have to learn to be a sober

562
00:30:51,727 --> 00:30:55,207
Speaker 1: human in that environment, or you can pack up and

563
00:30:55,247 --> 00:30:58,447
Speaker 1: start a brand new life somewhere else. Those are your

564
00:30:58,447 --> 00:30:59,167
Speaker 1: two options.

565
00:30:59,407 --> 00:31:04,287
Speaker 2: I've heard you call that pulling a geographical.

566
00:31:03,207 --> 00:31:07,047
Speaker 1: Pulling a geographical right, and that's really not ideal, and

567
00:31:07,087 --> 00:31:10,767
Speaker 1: it breaks my heart that that should even be away.

568
00:31:11,127 --> 00:31:13,207
Speaker 1: Someone has to learn to deal with this. But I've

569
00:31:13,247 --> 00:31:18,367
Speaker 1: seen it happen because a person newly sober is struggling

570
00:31:18,407 --> 00:31:22,487
Speaker 1: so badly to find their feet and be accepted now

571
00:31:22,527 --> 00:31:24,447
Speaker 1: as a non drinking person, that they go this is

572
00:31:24,487 --> 00:31:26,727
Speaker 1: so hard. I'm just going to start again. And I

573
00:31:27,527 --> 00:31:29,967
Speaker 1: have to confess that when I gave up alcohol, I

574
00:31:29,967 --> 00:31:32,887
Speaker 1: said to my husband, mate, I need to leave this town.

575
00:31:33,167 --> 00:31:34,727
Speaker 1: I need to leave this place. I got to go.

576
00:31:34,767 --> 00:31:37,007
Speaker 1: I gotta go. I just don't want to be here

577
00:31:37,047 --> 00:31:40,327
Speaker 1: anymore because everyone thinks this, and everyone's been gossiping about

578
00:31:40,327 --> 00:31:43,847
Speaker 1: me anyway, and you know, God Almighty, the things that

579
00:31:43,887 --> 00:31:47,287
Speaker 1: I heard about myself, and it's pretty hardcore.

580
00:31:47,447 --> 00:31:49,767
Speaker 2: It must be terrible. And also all those people are

581
00:31:49,807 --> 00:31:51,527
Speaker 2: still there, and they've got a picture in the head

582
00:31:51,567 --> 00:31:54,087
Speaker 2: of who you are, and you've got to almost convince

583
00:31:54,447 --> 00:31:57,047
Speaker 2: them or yourself that you're not that person anymore.

584
00:31:57,527 --> 00:32:00,927
Speaker 1: And my beautiful, beautiful, wise husband said to me, sweetheart,

585
00:32:00,967 --> 00:32:05,047
Speaker 1: you've been running from yourself and doing geographicals your whole life.

586
00:32:05,287 --> 00:32:09,087
Speaker 1: You have to face yourself. God damn it. That so

587
00:32:09,247 --> 00:32:12,167
Speaker 1: annoying and so wise. I'm not saying that's the anset

588
00:32:12,287 --> 00:32:14,487
Speaker 1: for everyone, but that was what we decided to do,

589
00:32:15,447 --> 00:32:17,887
Speaker 1: and it was an easy holly for me to face

590
00:32:17,967 --> 00:32:21,087
Speaker 1: my community that i'd been. I mean, here's the irony.

591
00:32:21,127 --> 00:32:23,367
Speaker 1: I mean, I was the person everyone shouted drinks to

592
00:32:23,487 --> 00:32:25,887
Speaker 1: because I performed like a monkey. Yeah, And that was

593
00:32:25,927 --> 00:32:27,847
Speaker 1: all fun and games, wasn't it. But when it was

594
00:32:27,847 --> 00:32:31,327
Speaker 1: a problem, I was mocked and shunned and talked about.

595
00:32:31,367 --> 00:32:34,367
Speaker 1: And that's the paradox of what happens with drinkers. We're

596
00:32:34,407 --> 00:32:38,327
Speaker 1: funny one minute and we're ostracized the next. And crueler

597
00:32:38,407 --> 00:32:42,687
Speaker 1: again is that we can be ostracized further socially and

598
00:32:42,767 --> 00:32:45,887
Speaker 1: not just geographically, because we've chosen to be so bad.

599
00:32:45,887 --> 00:32:50,047
Speaker 1: And that's uncomfortable because in rural communities people are massive,

600
00:32:50,047 --> 00:32:52,247
Speaker 1: massive drinkers, and they don't know what to do with me.

601
00:32:52,967 --> 00:32:55,407
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound like I'm full of myself here.

602
00:32:55,447 --> 00:32:57,247
Speaker 1: That's the last thing I ever want to sound like.

603
00:32:57,287 --> 00:33:01,007
Speaker 1: But I would like to think that the advocacy that

604
00:33:01,087 --> 00:33:04,207
Speaker 1: I have been doing in the rural space has provided

605
00:33:04,287 --> 00:33:06,687
Speaker 1: a beacon. I guess for a lot of women who've

606
00:33:06,687 --> 00:33:09,847
Speaker 1: come after me to know how to navigate is to

607
00:33:10,327 --> 00:33:13,927
Speaker 1: better manage that situation, because it is brutal and it's

608
00:33:14,007 --> 00:33:16,607
Speaker 1: really really hard. And I can say, hand on heart

609
00:33:16,647 --> 00:33:19,567
Speaker 1: it is easier for those who've come behind because a

610
00:33:19,647 --> 00:33:23,167
Speaker 1: decade of sober in the country and conversations and then

611
00:33:23,167 --> 00:33:25,927
Speaker 1: of course Australian of the Year and Marie Claire stuff

612
00:33:25,967 --> 00:33:28,487
Speaker 1: and whatnot, there's been a lot of media, there's been

613
00:33:28,527 --> 00:33:31,567
Speaker 1: a lot of publicity in our message has been heard

614
00:33:31,687 --> 00:33:35,007
Speaker 1: nationally and so thank God for that because my only

615
00:33:35,127 --> 00:33:41,087
Speaker 1: wish ever has been that someone someone else like me,

616
00:33:41,207 --> 00:33:44,847
Speaker 1: would not go through the hell I've experienced in becoming

617
00:33:44,927 --> 00:33:46,007
Speaker 1: sober in the country.

618
00:33:47,207 --> 00:33:49,887
Speaker 2: All Right, so maybe you've decided you do need to

619
00:33:49,927 --> 00:33:53,167
Speaker 2: do something about your drinking, but I want to know

620
00:33:53,207 --> 00:33:56,087
Speaker 2: what that looks like on the other side. If alcohol

621
00:33:56,087 --> 00:33:59,807
Speaker 2: has always been your fun, your socializing, your release, your

622
00:33:59,887 --> 00:34:04,207
Speaker 2: coping mechanism, how does life work without it? That's coming

623
00:34:04,287 --> 00:34:10,847
Speaker 2: up next? Has it changed? Like obviously you know that

624
00:34:10,927 --> 00:34:12,847
Speaker 2: the work that you've done has changed it for people

625
00:34:12,887 --> 00:34:15,767
Speaker 2: come behind you, But you now living almost a decade

626
00:34:16,487 --> 00:34:19,767
Speaker 2: as the sober person, do you still have to struggle

627
00:34:19,807 --> 00:34:22,287
Speaker 2: with all that stuff in terms of other people's perceptions

628
00:34:22,367 --> 00:34:24,447
Speaker 2: or have people Because what I'm thinking about is a

629
00:34:24,447 --> 00:34:27,647
Speaker 2: woman listening to this who's imagining her social life and

630
00:34:27,687 --> 00:34:30,087
Speaker 2: her social group and her whether it's in the country,

631
00:34:30,087 --> 00:34:33,047
Speaker 2: whether it's in the city, small town, whatever, and she's

632
00:34:33,087 --> 00:34:36,487
Speaker 2: thinking it's going to be so hard. Does it get easier?

633
00:34:36,607 --> 00:34:40,047
Speaker 2: Do people give you a frickin' break after a while

634
00:34:40,807 --> 00:34:43,367
Speaker 2: and support you rather than make things harder.

635
00:34:44,207 --> 00:34:46,167
Speaker 1: What we hear again and again and again through the

636
00:34:46,207 --> 00:34:49,127
Speaker 1: eight hundred people, just even in our peer support network,

637
00:34:49,327 --> 00:34:51,767
Speaker 1: those who get some runs on the board and get

638
00:34:51,767 --> 00:34:54,567
Speaker 1: a year or two under their belt, the common refrain

639
00:34:54,727 --> 00:35:00,607
Speaker 1: is it gets easier. Hang in there, have hope, don't

640
00:35:00,647 --> 00:35:04,207
Speaker 1: give up, because what eventually happens. And I'll tell you

641
00:35:04,247 --> 00:35:07,767
Speaker 1: what if you ever want to know, if you ever

642
00:35:07,807 --> 00:35:11,767
Speaker 1: want to know who you're truest, truest friends are get sober,

643
00:35:12,807 --> 00:35:16,567
Speaker 1: Get sober, and watch what happens. And again I'll use

644
00:35:16,607 --> 00:35:19,207
Speaker 1: myself as an example. I am a case in point.

645
00:35:20,047 --> 00:35:24,367
Speaker 1: Very quickly, once we choose sobriety, two things happen our

646
00:35:24,407 --> 00:35:27,647
Speaker 1: friends and families and those who really do care about

647
00:35:27,647 --> 00:35:31,887
Speaker 1: our welfare, our mental health and us as humans can

648
00:35:31,967 --> 00:35:35,487
Speaker 1: do nothing but get around us and support us quickly

649
00:35:35,687 --> 00:35:38,327
Speaker 1: because they're so relieved that we're seeking to change, right,

650
00:35:38,367 --> 00:35:41,167
Speaker 1: because most of us who give up had an unhealthy

651
00:35:41,167 --> 00:35:43,287
Speaker 1: thing going on, or in my case, we were at

652
00:35:43,407 --> 00:35:46,327
Speaker 1: absolute rock bottom, whatever end of the spectrum it is.

653
00:35:47,047 --> 00:35:49,567
Speaker 1: When people see someone trying to do something to better

654
00:35:49,607 --> 00:35:53,967
Speaker 1: their health, their circumstances, whatever, true friends wrap around. Right.

655
00:35:55,127 --> 00:35:59,647
Speaker 1: Often big drinking buddies and those upon who we relied

656
00:35:59,647 --> 00:36:03,047
Speaker 1: on to just have big drinking sessions and no meaningful,

657
00:36:03,367 --> 00:36:07,127
Speaker 1: real interaction beyond just getting on the source, they drop away.

658
00:36:07,727 --> 00:36:10,007
Speaker 1: And at first that hurts because we used to think

659
00:36:10,087 --> 00:36:14,247
Speaker 1: upon those groups as our friends. But it's pretty evident

660
00:36:14,647 --> 00:36:18,607
Speaker 1: quickly that that friendship group was actually based on nothing

661
00:36:18,607 --> 00:36:23,007
Speaker 1: more than just getting drunk. Yes, there's nothing meaningful behind it,

662
00:36:23,047 --> 00:36:27,167
Speaker 1: and that's pretty brutal and confronting once you're seeing the

663
00:36:27,207 --> 00:36:29,807
Speaker 1: truth of that. But myself and many many many before

664
00:36:29,927 --> 00:36:34,007
Speaker 1: and after me, have seen quickly that wow, they were

665
00:36:34,007 --> 00:36:34,727
Speaker 1: not my mates.

666
00:36:35,087 --> 00:36:38,967
Speaker 2: You know that is so relevant, This idea that like,

667
00:36:39,047 --> 00:36:40,567
Speaker 2: but this is what me and my friends do. We

668
00:36:40,647 --> 00:36:43,007
Speaker 2: get together and we drink and that's what we do, right,

669
00:36:43,687 --> 00:36:46,047
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of women don't necessarily mean me.

670
00:36:46,127 --> 00:36:49,007
Speaker 2: I mean this is but although sometimes indeed we do.

671
00:36:49,407 --> 00:36:52,367
Speaker 2: But the idea that what would we do without? Is

672
00:36:52,367 --> 00:36:54,767
Speaker 2: there fun to be had? Can life still be fun

673
00:36:54,807 --> 00:36:56,727
Speaker 2: in midlife? With our alcohol shower.

674
00:36:57,207 --> 00:37:00,607
Speaker 1: Bloody oath? It can be? Holly? Do you know what?

675
00:37:01,047 --> 00:37:03,247
Speaker 1: Oh my god? And again I'll use our group as

676
00:37:03,287 --> 00:37:07,167
Speaker 1: a reference point. I mean, we see people dropping comments

677
00:37:07,207 --> 00:37:09,847
Speaker 1: and they might have been struggling for a couple of years,

678
00:37:09,847 --> 00:37:13,207
Speaker 1: and eventually when they come through the hard slog, and

679
00:37:13,247 --> 00:37:15,327
Speaker 1: there is a hard slog for a lot of these people,

680
00:37:15,647 --> 00:37:19,807
Speaker 1: it's rarely an overnight, you know, transition, right, But when

681
00:37:19,847 --> 00:37:21,887
Speaker 1: they come out the other side of all that hardship,

682
00:37:22,607 --> 00:37:24,567
Speaker 1: people are suddenly going, oh my god, you guys, It's

683
00:37:24,607 --> 00:37:26,287
Speaker 1: been two years since I've had a drink, and I've

684
00:37:26,327 --> 00:37:29,247
Speaker 1: saved like god knows how many tens of thousands of

685
00:37:29,287 --> 00:37:33,847
Speaker 1: dollars and I've started running. And guess what my kids think.

686
00:37:33,927 --> 00:37:37,207
Speaker 1: I'm an awesome mum because I'm present and i am

687
00:37:37,287 --> 00:37:40,847
Speaker 1: here and I'm available and I'm not useless every Sunday.

688
00:37:41,047 --> 00:37:43,007
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say that as though every mummy is that

689
00:37:43,007 --> 00:37:45,927
Speaker 1: it hasn't dream right, you know what I'm saying. I'm

690
00:37:46,007 --> 00:37:50,687
Speaker 1: speaking generally. Or we see dads dropping in and saying

691
00:37:50,687 --> 00:37:52,847
Speaker 1: I've lost my beer gut and I've got a six pack,

692
00:37:52,887 --> 00:37:55,087
Speaker 1: and my wife reckons I'm the shes look at me,

693
00:37:55,207 --> 00:37:59,767
Speaker 1: go it's gorgeous. We see so many beautiful, beautiful stories

694
00:37:59,847 --> 00:38:06,287
Speaker 1: of families restored, health, restored, lives actually restored. And I

695
00:38:06,327 --> 00:38:08,527
Speaker 1: feel like I sound like an evangelist here, but I

696
00:38:08,567 --> 00:38:11,487
Speaker 1: feel like an evangelists sometimes. I want to stand on

697
00:38:11,527 --> 00:38:13,127
Speaker 1: the top of the mountain and say, you guys, you

698
00:38:13,127 --> 00:38:17,927
Speaker 1: don't understand. What's on the other side is amazing. There's happiness,

699
00:38:18,247 --> 00:38:23,287
Speaker 1: there's clarity, there's presence of mind. Yeah, there's fitness. There's

700
00:38:23,367 --> 00:38:27,247
Speaker 1: all of these wonderful, wonderful things. I think that in

701
00:38:27,327 --> 00:38:31,807
Speaker 1: sobriety circles what can happen is because there is so

702
00:38:31,967 --> 00:38:34,767
Speaker 1: much hardship and that a focus on the bad things

703
00:38:34,807 --> 00:38:38,087
Speaker 1: and the rock bottom, that we forget the magical moments

704
00:38:38,127 --> 00:38:40,847
Speaker 1: that come. I have to tell you, whenever I do

705
00:38:40,927 --> 00:38:44,567
Speaker 1: a keynote, I always finish with that point and I say,

706
00:38:44,807 --> 00:38:47,567
Speaker 1: you know, for magical Unicorn was to land on my

707
00:38:47,647 --> 00:38:50,567
Speaker 1: shoulder and say, Shanna, wan, I grant thee the wish

708
00:38:50,607 --> 00:38:54,927
Speaker 1: to drink like a normal human from henceforth. Ping I'd say, no,

709
00:38:55,047 --> 00:38:57,287
Speaker 1: you bugger off and take that wish and stick it

710
00:38:57,327 --> 00:39:01,407
Speaker 1: in your jumper. Thanks, mister unicorn. I literally would never

711
00:39:01,487 --> 00:39:05,647
Speaker 1: go back to alcohol for all the money in the world, ever, ever, ever.

712
00:39:06,327 --> 00:39:09,687
Speaker 1: So you know, I think it's super important that people

713
00:39:09,767 --> 00:39:14,007
Speaker 1: listening who are in that contemplation phase understand the good

714
00:39:14,007 --> 00:39:16,967
Speaker 1: stuff that can happen and the change. You know what

715
00:39:17,087 --> 00:39:20,207
Speaker 1: I see again and again, Holly, is that friendship groups

716
00:39:20,247 --> 00:39:24,327
Speaker 1: and what not change drastically, and so I'm no longer

717
00:39:24,367 --> 00:39:28,087
Speaker 1: surrounded by humans on the grog. I'm surrounded by people

718
00:39:28,167 --> 00:39:32,607
Speaker 1: in my friendship groups who are very health focused, motivated,

719
00:39:33,007 --> 00:39:36,967
Speaker 1: They're achieving things, they're doing things. They're very inspiring people

720
00:39:37,007 --> 00:39:37,287
Speaker 1: to me.

721
00:39:38,047 --> 00:39:41,087
Speaker 2: I'd love to ask you, Shan before we go, if

722
00:39:41,087 --> 00:39:43,807
Speaker 2: somebody is listening to this, and it's not necessarily themselves

723
00:39:43,847 --> 00:39:46,047
Speaker 2: that they're worried about, but somebody in their lives who

724
00:39:46,047 --> 00:39:50,807
Speaker 2: they love, who they know, is struggling, or they can

725
00:39:50,847 --> 00:39:53,847
Speaker 2: see that alcohol is their relationship with alcohol has become

726
00:39:53,887 --> 00:39:57,047
Speaker 2: unhealthy or has been for a while. What can you

727
00:39:57,087 --> 00:39:58,647
Speaker 2: do and should you do anything?

728
00:39:59,647 --> 00:40:02,767
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it's a really important question and it's probably

729
00:40:02,767 --> 00:40:06,527
Speaker 1: one of the most heartbreaking things that I see until

730
00:40:06,567 --> 00:40:10,087
Speaker 1: with on a daily basis in communities or just witness

731
00:40:10,447 --> 00:40:14,047
Speaker 1: and it is our most frequently asked question. The answer is,

732
00:40:14,327 --> 00:40:19,967
Speaker 1: you definitely need to, above all else, equip yourself with knowledge,

733
00:40:20,567 --> 00:40:26,007
Speaker 1: information tools, and an education and awareness. If you are

734
00:40:26,087 --> 00:40:29,527
Speaker 1: someone who cares about a human struggling, whether it's just

735
00:40:29,607 --> 00:40:32,567
Speaker 1: with a bit of red flag drinking or end stage addiction,

736
00:40:33,847 --> 00:40:35,847
Speaker 1: like jump on our website for starters and have a

737
00:40:35,847 --> 00:40:38,647
Speaker 1: look at the family and friends section or just google

738
00:40:38,687 --> 00:40:41,607
Speaker 1: what do I do if someone I love is you know,

739
00:40:41,687 --> 00:40:47,047
Speaker 1: red flag or problematic drinking? Because oftentimes, with the very

740
00:40:47,087 --> 00:40:51,207
Speaker 1: best of intentions, we do all the wrong things right,

741
00:40:51,807 --> 00:40:55,447
Speaker 1: my husband did the things that are common mistakes, covering

742
00:40:55,487 --> 00:40:59,687
Speaker 1: for me, lying for me, even sometimes enabling me unwittingly,

743
00:41:00,047 --> 00:41:02,567
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of contention around that topic of

744
00:41:02,687 --> 00:41:05,927
Speaker 1: enabling even so we don't have enough time to even

745
00:41:06,047 --> 00:41:10,607
Speaker 1: cover that. But please absolutely see help and support. And

746
00:41:10,647 --> 00:41:13,967
Speaker 1: in the same way someone with the issue around drinking

747
00:41:14,127 --> 00:41:18,607
Speaker 1: seeks peer support. Family members need their own peer support too,

748
00:41:18,767 --> 00:41:22,407
Speaker 1: because for every person impacted by addiction, the seven closest

749
00:41:22,727 --> 00:41:27,807
Speaker 1: people to them are equally impacted. Another really really awful statistic.

750
00:41:28,287 --> 00:41:30,807
Speaker 1: So you know, jump on our website, have a look

751
00:41:30,847 --> 00:41:34,327
Speaker 1: at the resources an info because it is really really

752
00:41:34,367 --> 00:41:37,767
Speaker 1: fragile territory and it's very very tricky. But there are

753
00:41:37,807 --> 00:41:41,287
Speaker 1: certain things that are better to say than others. There

754
00:41:41,287 --> 00:41:44,127
Speaker 1: are certain things that are better to do than others.

755
00:41:44,247 --> 00:41:47,167
Speaker 1: And I remember when it was May. I'll give you

756
00:41:47,167 --> 00:41:50,327
Speaker 1: an example. Someone very close to me came to me

757
00:41:50,527 --> 00:41:53,727
Speaker 1: one day in the morning very intelligently, because usually after

758
00:41:53,767 --> 00:41:56,687
Speaker 1: five o'clock it was anyone's guess what state I would be.

759
00:41:56,727 --> 00:41:59,567
Speaker 1: And I was an after five blackout drinker. That was

760
00:41:59,567 --> 00:42:03,727
Speaker 1: what I did. I was a workaholic by day, alcoholic

761
00:42:03,967 --> 00:42:06,807
Speaker 1: after five anyway, And she came to me one morning

762
00:42:06,847 --> 00:42:09,727
Speaker 1: and she said, Chen, we know that you're not well,

763
00:42:10,607 --> 00:42:13,447
Speaker 1: we know that you're struggling. We love you very very much,

764
00:42:13,487 --> 00:42:16,687
Speaker 1: but just to be clear, our family can't come and

765
00:42:16,727 --> 00:42:19,287
Speaker 1: have dinner and do anything with you of an evening

766
00:42:19,327 --> 00:42:23,487
Speaker 1: anymore because it's really upsetting and it's too difficult. Yep,

767
00:42:23,727 --> 00:42:26,327
Speaker 1: I know it makes you want to cry. It's too

768
00:42:26,367 --> 00:42:29,327
Speaker 1: hard for us to see you in this much pain

769
00:42:29,407 --> 00:42:31,287
Speaker 1: and torment, and we know that must have.

770
00:42:31,327 --> 00:42:33,847
Speaker 2: Been hard for them to say that to you, I mean,

771
00:42:34,487 --> 00:42:37,127
Speaker 2: unbelievably hard for you to hear. But also that would

772
00:42:37,167 --> 00:42:38,087
Speaker 2: take a lot.

773
00:42:37,927 --> 00:42:41,887
Speaker 1: Of it was really courageous, And what I will never

774
00:42:41,967 --> 00:42:45,287
Speaker 1: forget is the fact that they said, we know you're sick,

775
00:42:45,567 --> 00:42:48,247
Speaker 1: we know you're struggling, we know you can't help this,

776
00:42:49,047 --> 00:42:51,247
Speaker 1: and that is the truth. Really, at end stage addiction,

777
00:42:51,367 --> 00:42:55,247
Speaker 1: you actually can't even you can't even help what you're doing.

778
00:42:56,247 --> 00:43:00,327
Speaker 1: It's dreadful. It's a horrific, horrific thing. But the compassion

779
00:43:00,807 --> 00:43:03,927
Speaker 1: in the delivery took the worst of this sting out

780
00:43:03,927 --> 00:43:06,447
Speaker 1: of it. And when she'd left, it was one of

781
00:43:06,487 --> 00:43:09,527
Speaker 1: the reasons, among a handful of other reasons, that I

782
00:43:09,647 --> 00:43:14,807
Speaker 1: finally went shit, I'm in really big trouble here. If

783
00:43:14,847 --> 00:43:18,007
Speaker 1: people are not game to bring children to my home

784
00:43:18,567 --> 00:43:21,887
Speaker 1: after five o'clock, that's probably one of the most horrifying,

785
00:43:22,367 --> 00:43:25,927
Speaker 1: horrifying things imaginable for me to hear. And then I

786
00:43:25,967 --> 00:43:27,167
Speaker 1: heard some gossip.

787
00:43:27,567 --> 00:43:30,047
Speaker 2: Oh it makes me want to cry for you, because

788
00:43:30,047 --> 00:43:31,887
Speaker 2: just because I also think that, I mean, it's not

789
00:43:31,927 --> 00:43:34,687
Speaker 2: like you wouldn't have already been wallowing in the shame

790
00:43:34,767 --> 00:43:37,447
Speaker 2: of it, and then that would be and I'm sure

791
00:43:37,447 --> 00:43:39,007
Speaker 2: as your friend would have been like, I don't want

792
00:43:39,047 --> 00:43:41,847
Speaker 2: to add to this, you know, but at the same time, anyway, sorry,

793
00:43:41,927 --> 00:43:42,567
Speaker 2: I'm interrupted.

794
00:43:42,727 --> 00:43:45,567
Speaker 1: No, no, not at all. And look, it broke my

795
00:43:45,687 --> 00:43:49,887
Speaker 1: heart because I was always actually super careful around children.

796
00:43:50,247 --> 00:43:54,807
Speaker 1: Weirdly enough, that was my one the one place that

797
00:43:54,927 --> 00:43:57,607
Speaker 1: I was really good was if kids were involved. I

798
00:43:57,687 --> 00:44:01,407
Speaker 1: never allowed myself to be crazy shant. But anyway, it

799
00:44:01,447 --> 00:44:03,327
Speaker 1: was it was a fair call and it was a

800
00:44:03,327 --> 00:44:06,247
Speaker 1: fair point. And then I heard someone gossiping about me,

801
00:44:07,007 --> 00:44:08,887
Speaker 1: believe it or not, at my own house, with my

802
00:44:08,887 --> 00:44:11,967
Speaker 1: own because they thought I was asleep, And so these

803
00:44:12,007 --> 00:44:14,647
Speaker 1: things just kept happening and adding up and it was

804
00:44:14,727 --> 00:44:16,927
Speaker 1: no longer I mean, plus the fact that I was

805
00:44:16,927 --> 00:44:20,047
Speaker 1: in emergency every bloody five minutes, I mean, I was

806
00:44:20,167 --> 00:44:22,887
Speaker 1: just headed for death. That's not even a question mark.

807
00:44:22,967 --> 00:44:26,927
Speaker 1: So anyway, back to your question, Holly, Oh, it's really

808
00:44:26,927 --> 00:44:30,607
Speaker 1: tricky territory. And I just so strongly advise people, if

809
00:44:30,647 --> 00:44:34,087
Speaker 1: you are fortunate enough to live in a city where

810
00:44:34,087 --> 00:44:37,287
Speaker 1: there are l and non face to face support meetings,

811
00:44:37,527 --> 00:44:40,767
Speaker 1: just go, go and sit and learn from people with

812
00:44:40,927 --> 00:44:45,447
Speaker 1: experience and lived experience. Nothing will be more powerful for

813
00:44:45,527 --> 00:44:48,967
Speaker 1: you to find your way through. Just go and give

814
00:44:49,007 --> 00:44:53,087
Speaker 1: it a crack. Jump on an online group, get help, learn,

815
00:44:53,487 --> 00:44:59,007
Speaker 1: equip yourself. And whilst compassion is necessary and while the

816
00:44:59,047 --> 00:45:01,527
Speaker 1: people you love in addiction are not bad people, they

817
00:45:01,527 --> 00:45:04,007
Speaker 1: are very sick and you actually have to learn to

818
00:45:04,047 --> 00:45:08,807
Speaker 1: protect yourself and put some very serious boundaries in places

819
00:45:09,047 --> 00:45:11,207
Speaker 1: that it's just a sad fact.

820
00:45:11,647 --> 00:45:15,207
Speaker 2: Did your relationship with that loved one survive? Yeah, the

821
00:45:15,207 --> 00:45:16,967
Speaker 2: one who was brave enough to say that to you?

822
00:45:17,007 --> 00:45:19,607
Speaker 1: And oh my god, I'm going to cry telling you this.

823
00:45:21,647 --> 00:45:24,407
Speaker 1: Oh it always gets me. It's a really beautiful story.

824
00:45:24,447 --> 00:45:27,647
Speaker 1: It was actually my sister in law and two years

825
00:45:27,727 --> 00:45:30,127
Speaker 1: later she made me the godmom of her little boy.

826
00:45:31,007 --> 00:45:35,087
Speaker 1: So yeah, I know, sorry, I wasn't even going to

827
00:45:35,167 --> 00:45:37,367
Speaker 1: drop that in there, but it always makes me cry.

828
00:45:37,527 --> 00:45:40,967
Speaker 1: And so I think that that is a really gorgeous

829
00:45:43,247 --> 00:45:47,087
Speaker 1: story of such hope and restoration that can happen because

830
00:45:47,847 --> 00:45:50,647
Speaker 1: I thought that relationship was done. I thought it was

831
00:45:50,807 --> 00:45:56,247
Speaker 1: never going to be repairable. And sorry, and that's you know,

832
00:45:56,327 --> 00:45:59,807
Speaker 1: that's here's the beautiful take home lesson for people holy

833
00:46:00,007 --> 00:46:03,407
Speaker 1: like you know you might think, and I guess this

834
00:46:03,607 --> 00:46:06,407
Speaker 1: is definitely aimed more so at people who resonate with

835
00:46:06,527 --> 00:46:10,567
Speaker 1: me where it's just it seems as so there's no hope,

836
00:46:10,607 --> 00:46:15,927
Speaker 1: there's no redemption, there's no alternative. There is there is.

837
00:46:16,087 --> 00:46:18,527
Speaker 1: And you know the other thing my husband said to

838
00:46:18,567 --> 00:46:22,807
Speaker 1: me when I begged him to leave this town, he said, sweetheart,

839
00:46:23,807 --> 00:46:27,087
Speaker 1: you'll see that in time when people observe who you

840
00:46:27,167 --> 00:46:31,287
Speaker 1: become and who you are and who I see, the

841
00:46:31,327 --> 00:46:34,647
Speaker 1: girl I love is who they're going to start seeing.

842
00:46:34,887 --> 00:46:37,087
Speaker 1: And you just have to hang in there. And he said,

843
00:46:37,127 --> 00:46:40,647
Speaker 1: once people discover who the shan is that we know,

844
00:46:41,007 --> 00:46:44,607
Speaker 1: those of you closest to you know, watch what will happen.

845
00:46:45,247 --> 00:46:48,407
Speaker 1: And you know something, Holly, I've had that redemption and

846
00:46:48,487 --> 00:46:53,167
Speaker 1: I've had that restoration, and I mean, gosh, imagine imagine

847
00:46:53,207 --> 00:46:57,367
Speaker 1: being an Australian of the Year recipient and going back

848
00:46:57,407 --> 00:47:00,727
Speaker 1: into your town with that. I mean, it's unimaginable really

849
00:47:00,767 --> 00:47:03,687
Speaker 1: to me that that even happened. And again, that's not

850
00:47:03,727 --> 00:47:05,327
Speaker 1: why I do what I do. It's not why I

851
00:47:05,327 --> 00:47:08,847
Speaker 1: did what I did, but I guess I do always

852
00:47:08,927 --> 00:47:13,327
Speaker 1: hope that it's a story that we will encourage others

853
00:47:13,367 --> 00:47:13,647
Speaker 1: to know.

854
00:47:15,567 --> 00:47:19,847
Speaker 2: Sorry, thank you for telling the story. Thank you for

855
00:47:19,927 --> 00:47:22,247
Speaker 2: doing what you do. With sober in the country, with

856
00:47:22,607 --> 00:47:26,007
Speaker 2: the peer support group. I mean, it's just it's amazing

857
00:47:26,087 --> 00:47:28,767
Speaker 2: because I know that there will be so many women

858
00:47:28,807 --> 00:47:32,167
Speaker 2: listening to this who they'll either be thinking about themselves,

859
00:47:32,287 --> 00:47:34,527
Speaker 2: or they'll be thinking about their partner, or they'll be

860
00:47:34,567 --> 00:47:38,407
Speaker 2: thinking about their friends. And it's just so helpful. And

861
00:47:38,487 --> 00:47:41,567
Speaker 2: thank you so much for sharing. Obviously, Shanna, we will

862
00:47:41,607 --> 00:47:44,047
Speaker 2: put in our show notes for this episode all of

863
00:47:44,087 --> 00:47:46,967
Speaker 2: the links to all of your resources, and so if

864
00:47:46,967 --> 00:47:49,727
Speaker 2: it has raised issues for people, they can go there.

865
00:47:49,767 --> 00:47:51,527
Speaker 2: There's also a lot of resources on there for people

866
00:47:51,567 --> 00:47:54,487
Speaker 2: who aren't in the country. Absolutely, thank you so much

867
00:47:54,527 --> 00:47:55,367
Speaker 2: for this conversation.

868
00:47:55,967 --> 00:47:59,127
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Holleen. I just really appreciate

869
00:47:59,207 --> 00:48:00,807
Speaker 1: the opportunity and I wish I could give you a

870
00:48:00,847 --> 00:48:01,407
Speaker 1: little cuddle.

871
00:48:05,447 --> 00:48:08,847
Speaker 2: When we finished that conversation, everyone in the studio was

872
00:48:08,887 --> 00:48:12,047
Speaker 2: in tea. And if you're ending this the same way,

873
00:48:12,407 --> 00:48:15,047
Speaker 2: maybe because it struck a chord with you about your drinking,

874
00:48:15,127 --> 00:48:18,047
Speaker 2: or about someone in your life shrinking, or someone who

875
00:48:18,127 --> 00:48:20,567
Speaker 2: used to be in your live strinking. I want you

876
00:48:20,607 --> 00:48:23,407
Speaker 2: to know that, friend, you're not alone. As Shanner so

877
00:48:23,527 --> 00:48:26,767
Speaker 2: eloquently puts it, you're up against the world in some ways,

878
00:48:26,807 --> 00:48:29,487
Speaker 2: and you're past and everything you've ever been told about

879
00:48:29,487 --> 00:48:32,727
Speaker 2: having a good time. You're not broken, and you are

880
00:48:32,807 --> 00:48:35,647
Speaker 2: not weak. You're going to find links in our show

881
00:48:35,687 --> 00:48:39,407
Speaker 2: notes to organizations that can help you, including Shannon's of course.

882
00:48:40,487 --> 00:48:43,367
Speaker 2: And next week we're having a conversation that's for you

883
00:48:43,527 --> 00:48:46,127
Speaker 2: if you're one of the very many midlife women who

884
00:48:46,167 --> 00:48:50,407
Speaker 2: are just tired all the time. It's about burnout, and

885
00:48:50,447 --> 00:48:53,927
Speaker 2: it's with the important and beautiful writer Catherine May. I

886
00:48:54,007 --> 00:48:57,047
Speaker 2: cannot wait for you to hear that. I was dying

887
00:48:57,087 --> 00:48:59,127
Speaker 2: to talk to Katherine. If you've ever heard of the

888
00:48:59,127 --> 00:49:01,287
Speaker 2: book Wintering, lots of people have heard of it. She

889
00:49:01,407 --> 00:49:04,327
Speaker 2: wrote it. It's amazing. Anyway, you'll hear me gosh about

890
00:49:04,327 --> 00:49:06,887
Speaker 2: that next week. I want to thank my excellent producer,

891
00:49:06,887 --> 00:49:09,567
Speaker 2: to Elsabezaz for making these shows with me. I want

892
00:49:09,567 --> 00:49:11,647
Speaker 2: to thank you for listening to them. If you love

893
00:49:11,767 --> 00:49:14,167
Speaker 2: mid share it with someone who needs to hear it.

894
00:49:14,447 --> 00:49:15,407
Speaker 2: We'll see you next week.