Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Your children were tiny,
Speaker 2: and now they're not. Your parents were giants and now
Speaker 2: they're not. You were the bold young thing in the office,
Speaker 2: and now you're not. Let's call it the shift. It's
Speaker 2: as stark as the moment you can no longer read
Speaker 2: the small print, and as subtle as the slow creep
Speaker 2: of crapy lines where your cute dimples used to hang out.
Speaker 2: The shift can be joyful. There's such pride in seeing
Speaker 2: someone you've cared for so long learning how to care
Speaker 2: for you in little ways, a cup of tea, a
Speaker 2: sincd iPhone, and big ways, a mental load lifted, a
Speaker 2: solid force beside you as you weather bad news. It's
Speaker 2: heart filling seeing the tide flowing both ways on a
Speaker 2: caring stream that was, for the longest time only running
Speaker 2: in one direction. You giving them, growing big and warm
Speaker 2: on all that love you've funneled their way. And the
Speaker 2: shift can be sharp. Understanding the lasts you didn't know
Speaker 2: were lasts really are moments that will never repeat. A
Speaker 2: sure footed walk with your dad, a long spirited row
Speaker 2: with your mom, an unself conscious little hand slipped into
Speaker 2: yours on the street.
Speaker 1: Takes a minute.
Speaker 2: We have to figure out what to do with our
Speaker 2: hands and our hearts. Now our job descriptions have changed.
Speaker 2: Parenting your parents is a whole new skill that requires
Speaker 2: diplomacy and patience and a deep understanding that no one
Speaker 2: ever wants to see themselves as helpless, watching kids who
Speaker 2: are no longer kids make childish choices, and holding your
Speaker 2: tongue realizing that you're now seen as office mum, even
Speaker 2: if you're not anyone's bloody mum. There's solidarity in the shift.
Speaker 2: Support can be found in sister friends all around, and
Speaker 2: there's loneliness too, when the cacophony of family chaos fades
Speaker 2: into a quiet Friday night. Maybe you're there, maybe you're not.
Speaker 2: Midwomen are the rebels who threw out scripts and had
Speaker 2: kids early, late, not at all, who moved far from
Speaker 2: families to carve their own paths, who pushed back on
Speaker 2: default caring roles that left them feeling exploited, and lent
Speaker 2: into ones that made us feel privileged and full. And
Speaker 2: then there's just no choice. We love who we love,
Speaker 2: We want them safe and cared for.
Speaker 1: Will do what it takes.
Speaker 2: We can't fight forever, the fact that the world has
Speaker 2: slipped an other lens over the way it views us.
Speaker 2: Once we no longer read young, We just hold hands
Speaker 2: and get on with it, whisper to each other about
Speaker 2: the weirdness, the strain, the freedoms, the losses big and small,
Speaker 2: the hilarity about how we've learnt over and again that
Speaker 2: changes the only constant, and yet every single time it's
Speaker 2: a sticky surprise. As a whole lot of cartoon lions
Speaker 2: taught us in the nineties, it's the circle of life, friends,
Speaker 2: and no one is wiser than a cartoon lion.
Speaker 1: We're all connected in the great circle of life.
Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family,
Speaker 2: mid chaos. Thanks to you, my friends, this season of
Speaker 2: our new show, Yours and Mine is bigger than ever.
Speaker 2: You embrace sex. Don't get me wrong, I know a
Speaker 2: whole lot of us are not actually embracing sex at
Speaker 2: the moment with Perry and everything, but you jumped on
Speaker 2: our episode about libido and adventure with Leslie Morgan, and
Speaker 2: I couldn't be more delighted about that. Go tell someone
Speaker 2: about it if you think they need to hear it.
Speaker 2: And hopefully you're going to love today's EPP just as much. Yes,
Speaker 2: I'm that person asking you to like, follow, rate and
Speaker 2: review wherever you're listening just today, then I'll shut up
Speaker 2: about Today's episode is about the shift that moment in
Speaker 2: your life when a lot of the established parameters of
Speaker 2: how you live at home, at work, with family, with
Speaker 2: friends begin to change shape. And I told you last
Speaker 2: week that this season we've cooked up a dinner party
Speaker 2: for you. Over the eighth episodes. That's a spicy mixture
Speaker 2: of names you'll know and some you don't, but all
Speaker 2: have something to say that we all need to hear today.
Speaker 2: It's the former Kylie Gillies has been in living rooms
Speaker 2: across Australia every morning for seventeen years. She's the co
Speaker 2: host of the Morning Show with Larry Mda.
Speaker 3: Adam Rodriguez my hero, crime scene investigator.
Speaker 1: Stripper and look at night in shining Armor. Look how
Speaker 1: he comes to my rescue. Larry, what are there? You
Speaker 1: wouldn't never have done this for me?
Speaker 2: It just hello. The kind of live tea, the job that,
Speaker 2: as she tells me, in this chat means one minute
Speaker 2: you're talking about foot fungus, and the next you're interviewing
Speaker 2: a rock star, and the next you're doing a TikTok
Speaker 2: dance and playing the recorder. I wanted to talk to
Speaker 2: Kylie because and we start straight off talking about this.
Speaker 2: When I got to go on the morning show to
Speaker 2: talk about mid, she said something pretty funny to me
Speaker 2: about what she hoped we weren't going to discuss on
Speaker 2: this show. It told me, of course, what I already knew,
Speaker 2: that Kylie's a smart, engaged journalist with opinions, but also
Speaker 2: that as a midwoman, she's perfectly placed to talk about
Speaker 2: everything else. Mid's a wrestling with kids, growing up, losing
Speaker 2: and caring for much loved parents, reflecting on your career,
Speaker 2: and working out what's next. And I was right, we
Speaker 2: get into all of that. She's also, in very stark
Speaker 2: contrast to episode one's guest, been married to the same man,
Speaker 2: her husband, Tony, since she was twenty two. I loved
Speaker 2: talking to Kylie, who told me she'd never done a
Speaker 2: podcast interview before and she was a bit nervous. So
Speaker 2: here we go. Mid season two, Episode two, The Shift
Speaker 2: with Kylie Gillies.
Speaker 1: Kylie, I was.
Speaker 2: Lucky enough to come into the morning show and sit
Speaker 2: on the couch with you to talk about mid when
Speaker 2: we first launched, and I'm just gonna share a little
Speaker 2: behind the scenes. You said to me before we went on,
Speaker 2: you said, I hope this show isn't about fucking maniform
Speaker 2: and hot flushes and stuff. She's like so much of that.
Speaker 1: Around and I was like, well, tell me why you
Speaker 1: felt like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, First up, I would have absolutely said that, I
Speaker 3: know really didn't swear.
Speaker 2: Maybe you didn't swear. Maybe that I'm reading I probably.
Speaker 1: Did because I would feel comfortable with you.
Speaker 3: So one. I don't remember saying it, but it sounds
Speaker 3: absolutely one hundred percent something I would say. I love
Speaker 3: being in this era of my life. And yes, that's
Speaker 3: something that affects all of us over a certain age,
Speaker 3: isn't it.
Speaker 1: And it's great it's getting so.
Speaker 3: Much publicity at the moment, But sometimes I think at
Speaker 3: the expense of just chatting about a lot of other stuff, right,
Speaker 3: But I don't mind. I mean, I don't want to
Speaker 3: talk about it twenty four to seven.
Speaker 2: But I wonder if because this is how I feel sometimes,
Speaker 2: right is sometimes I feel like and this is very much.
Speaker 2: The premise of MID is that we do sometimes talk
Speaker 2: about hormones and things.
Speaker 1: But I don't.
Speaker 2: Want that to be the only conversation that women our
Speaker 2: era are having, because sometimes I worry that it makes
Speaker 2: a sound like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, well you know what I think. Well,
Speaker 3: I don't want to be dismissed a bit. I don't
Speaker 3: want to be defined by my ovaries. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 3: want to be defined by my minstrual cycle. I think
Speaker 3: I've got a lot more to offer and to talk about.
Speaker 3: I think we should talk about it because it affects
Speaker 3: our everyday life sometimes, but I don't want to be
Speaker 3: defined by that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I think the pendulum was too far the other way,
Speaker 3: and my god, that pendulum has swung all the.
Speaker 1: Way over, you know, to the extreme. And look, you know,
Speaker 1: if age back like three percent, that could be good.
Speaker 2: No, I totally know what you mean, because you want
Speaker 2: to talk about menopause talk.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, like not not you, but like just out there.
Speaker 3: That's great, But you know, I don't want it to
Speaker 3: be the only thing that defines women over fifty.
Speaker 2: Well, and also it might be true because also when
Speaker 2: you're in the public eye and I struggle with this.
Speaker 2: I'm not in the public eye like you are, but
Speaker 2: you don't want to be seen as being old because
Speaker 2: it kind of pushes you into a different space where
Speaker 2: you're like, I love my work, I love my career,
Speaker 2: I love what I'm doing. I don't want to keep
Speaker 2: doing it. I don't want you to suddenly think that I'm,
Speaker 2: you know, over the hill, Holly.
Speaker 3: I would like to be just a pin up girl,
Speaker 3: not the pinup girl for minipause, right, you know, And
Speaker 3: it's the same, you know, I think that, don't you
Speaker 3: think that's how do.
Speaker 1: You feel like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I do, and I al I don't want to be
Speaker 3: a pinup girl either, But I'm just saying that I
Speaker 3: just don't want to be the face of menopause unless
Speaker 3: someone would like to give me five hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 3: to the face of been a pause? Is there s
Speaker 3: to drug or pill or something? And you know what,
Speaker 3: that would be great, let's talk.
Speaker 2: Yes, I totally at it. So your career, which has
Speaker 2: been is incredible. It has been incredible. It is incredible.
Speaker 2: You've done a lot of different things, right, So you
Speaker 2: have obviously been a reporter for a lot of years,
Speaker 2: you've done lots of news, you've done lots of sport,
Speaker 2: and now you've been in living rooms on the morning
Speaker 2: show for a really long time.
Speaker 3: Seventeen years with Larry, we started the show. People forget
Speaker 3: that we were the first ones on Channel seven to
Speaker 3: do the morning show because it was Kerrie Anne Kennerley
Speaker 3: on Channel nine had a very successful show, and then
Speaker 3: Channel seven didn't have one. So Larry and I were
Speaker 3: a foot where they put us together and we started
Speaker 3: it seventeen years ago and we're still there.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I know people love about
Speaker 2: it is the chemistry between you two, which is amazing.
Speaker 2: I also think, and this is interesting about ambition as
Speaker 2: you get older, right, is that I don't know if
Speaker 2: this happens to you, but it happens to me sometimes
Speaker 2: that Mum and me and people like, we've got to
Speaker 2: stay relevant, we've got to stay cool. So do this, ladies, TikTok,
Speaker 2: trend and let's do this, and let's do that, and
Speaker 2: now podcasts, video and now we're all on social and
Speaker 2: you know, if you want to stay in the culture,
Speaker 2: which I think journalists, do you embrace it? Do you
Speaker 2: embrace all that stuff, or do you ever feel like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: this isn't what I got into it for.
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying.
Speaker 3: I'm not on TikTok, but I would get dragged into
Speaker 3: TikTok sometimes that the station will put up.
Speaker 2: I've got an advantage because you can dance well.
Speaker 3: I got onto Instagram in the first place because I
Speaker 3: do love photography.
Speaker 1: It's one of the passions.
Speaker 3: So I could look at Instagram and go I love
Speaker 3: it for the photographic side of it, because I love
Speaker 3: taking photos, and I would take photos on the sidelines
Speaker 3: of my kids' footy matches, and I was sort of
Speaker 3: like the unofficial team photographer. So I got into Instagram
Speaker 3: for that. Is it something I did to stay relevant? Look,
Speaker 3: I think it is. If I haven't done something, I think,
Speaker 3: oh I should really do something. I do like it
Speaker 3: to a certain extent, but I don't let it run
Speaker 3: my life. Like a lot of people are really good
Speaker 3: and they talk to camera a lot. I talk to
Speaker 3: camera between nine and eleven thirty. I don't tend to
Speaker 3: do a lot of Hey, get ready with me, and Hey,
Speaker 3: what are we doing. I don't tend to do a lot.
Speaker 1: Of that because I guess I do it.
Speaker 3: You know on the big Telly Do, I probably don't
Speaker 3: do as much of that, and maybe I should.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I had to do what's authentic to me, and sometimes
Speaker 3: I go to do that and I don't feel comfy.
Speaker 3: Speaking of not feeling comfy, can I say, like being
Speaker 3: here with you, I've been really nervous about coming and
Speaker 3: doing this.
Speaker 2: Weird to me that you would be nervous to speak to.
Speaker 3: Me because I'm used to asking the questions, not being
Speaker 3: on this side, and I know it's a little bit confronting.
Speaker 3: So it really gives me an insight to what it's
Speaker 3: like being a guest on my show. Maybe you know,
Speaker 3: maybe I should have more empathy for my guests or something,
Speaker 3: because it's quite nerve wracking. And I don't like speaking
Speaker 3: about myself as she sits down to do a forty
Speaker 3: five minute podcast about herself, but do you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't actually enjoy it, and I tend
Speaker 3: to show away. I've never done a podcast before. Oh
Speaker 3: I've never been on that, so you feel very honored.
Speaker 2: But you know, what I was going to tell you
Speaker 2: is that because obviously, before I sit down with anybody,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go and look at lots of things
Speaker 2: about them and read lots of things about them, because
Speaker 2: I think you've always got to, you know, make sure
Speaker 2: you're giving your guest your respect. I think that your
Speaker 2: social presence, as we were just talking about, is perfect
Speaker 2: for you, right because you do share. You've shared some
Speaker 2: really beautiful things about your family, about your kids, about
Speaker 2: your parents, about your life, but not like a in
Speaker 2: a way that feels entirely appropriate for a grown up
Speaker 2: woman who you know has a serious career but also
Speaker 2: understands that people are curious about them.
Speaker 1: Like that's partly thank you.
Speaker 2: You know your job, and I think you do a
Speaker 2: very good job. And as fear feeling uncomfortable, I'm like,
Speaker 2: please don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not even.
Speaker 3: Comfy in a just so worried about it last night
Speaker 3: like going to say, I thought, I wonder what the
Speaker 3: hole is going to ask?
Speaker 1: How am I going to sound interesting?
Speaker 3: I think I hope why people like the Morning show
Speaker 3: too is that hopefully they see themselves in a little bit.
Speaker 3: And I know I get great hair and makeup done
Speaker 3: every day and that's a real treat.
Speaker 1: But I've come from Tamworth. I was born in Tamworth.
Speaker 3: My dad worked two jobs, you know, so I could
Speaker 3: afford a flute lesson.
Speaker 1: I have one sister. Mum worked as well.
Speaker 3: She stayed at home until we were old enough to
Speaker 3: you know, walk home ourselves from.
Speaker 1: School, and then she went back to work part time.
Speaker 1: So you know, I get what it's like not to be.
Speaker 3: Fabulous or not to be the person who was born
Speaker 3: into wealth or privilege or any of those things. I mean,
Speaker 3: I've worked. I've worked since I was seventeen years old.
Speaker 3: So people when they meet me say, oh, you're just
Speaker 3: like us. Yeah, and that's really a really nice compliment.
Speaker 3: So you're just like us, but you get good hair
Speaker 3: and make come.
Speaker 2: I think right that people can feel that in you,
Speaker 2: and I think that. I mean, I wouldn't be telling
Speaker 2: you anything you don't know, because you're a TV professional
Speaker 2: of many years. But people can see through like I
Speaker 2: don't know, they can see through the hair and makeup
Speaker 2: because they like they would still be like, bitch, looks amazing.
Speaker 1: Let me this eyelash off. No, I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2: I know you wouldn't do that.
Speaker 3: But does that sound like I know, no entirely, so
Speaker 3: it doesn't sound disingenuous to say that about myself, though,
Speaker 3: does it because not either sure, okay, because I think
Speaker 3: it comes through also, as I said when I was
Speaker 3: sort of looking at your life, as much as you
Speaker 3: can tell anything about anybody's life from what they put
Speaker 3: in the public, that comes out.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, honestly, what comes out work ethic are
Speaker 2: really strong work ethic and liking what you do. Family.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make you talk about that, and you're probably
Speaker 2: gonna cry. Family comes out very strongly, both your long marriage,
Speaker 2: your beautiful boys, and your parents and like that comes through.
Speaker 2: And also what comes through that I hope you know
Speaker 2: is like a good dose of joy, like I want
Speaker 2: you to do that. You know, I was joking about
Speaker 2: tiktoks and things and whether that sometimes feels a bit like,
Speaker 2: oh do I have to tap dads for my money?
Speaker 2: Now I get a sense that you know, I saw
Speaker 2: you recently doing like Chicago or something. What was that
Speaker 2: that I saw?
Speaker 3: I went behind the scenes of Chicago the Stage musical,
Speaker 3: and we filmed it for the Morning show.
Speaker 2: I love a woman who can like because you're a
Speaker 2: very good dancer.
Speaker 1: You're on Dance with the Stars. We all know that twice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and very good I've never got my hands on
Speaker 3: the mirror ball, though it must have been that good.
Speaker 2: You know, I was travesty of justice.
Speaker 3: One hundred marks for effort and for passion about a
Speaker 3: solid forty.
Speaker 1: Nine or actual skill. I always say, I don't care.
Speaker 2: I say to my kids the effort scores are the
Speaker 2: ones that But anyway, what came through in that too
Speaker 2: is like a bit of joy, like you clearly like
Speaker 2: doing that right. And one of the things I hope
Speaker 2: I never lose as I get older and sometimes our
Speaker 2: confidence gets a bit rocked, is like I want to
Speaker 2: try that thing. And I wanted to ask you, like,
Speaker 2: this amazing career you've had and you still have, does
Speaker 2: it still like a fire in you? And do you
Speaker 2: still have like lots of ambitions for things you want
Speaker 2: to do well?
Speaker 3: When we get to about this age, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of talk in my friendship group, I guess about retirement.
Speaker 3: Oh how's your super looking. Oh that's a really boring question,
Speaker 3: isn't it. And I'm like, oh, I'm not there. My
Speaker 3: head isn't even there. Yes, we should all be, as women,
Speaker 3: very mindful of super and I am, but I'm nowhere
Speaker 3: near that. I actually really enjoy going to work. I
Speaker 3: really enjoy my workmates. I enjoy the camaraderie. I enjoy
Speaker 3: seeing next Larry on the couch. We get to talk
Speaker 3: to really interesting people. So my head isn't even there yet.
Speaker 3: So I do genuinely love what I do. And then
Speaker 3: when I get to do those great things like dancing
Speaker 3: with the stars, you know, once every ten years, or
Speaker 3: go behind the scenes of Chicago the musical, it does
Speaker 3: bring me joy. But on that point of joy, this
Speaker 3: is something I had to We had a mentoring program
Speaker 3: at Channel seven and you could put your hand up
Speaker 3: if you wanted to join, and I was asked if
Speaker 3: I'd like to be a mentor. I'm like, oh, you mean,
Speaker 3: not one getting you know, mentored? Would you like to
Speaker 3: be the Is it the men the mentor? The she
Speaker 3: is the one learning the mentor? And I'm like, oh, oh, okay.
Speaker 1: So I won't name her.
Speaker 3: But I was paired up with a beautiful girl at
Speaker 3: work and she was talking to me about ambition and
Speaker 3: what she should do next and all of this. But
Speaker 3: I could look at her and I went, I think
Speaker 3: you really like what you do and she said, yeah,
Speaker 3: I love what I'm doing. And she wasn't in Sydney,
Speaker 3: And I said, you're in a relationship. Yeah, I'm happily married,
Speaker 3: and do you like we living? Love where I'm living?
Speaker 3: And I said, you know what, there's nothing wrong with
Speaker 3: being content and happy with what you're doing. You haven't
Speaker 3: got to be the next six o'clock news reader just
Speaker 3: because you think that's what you have to do. And
Speaker 3: she actually stopped and she thought about it, and she went, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone's actually ever said that to me before,
Speaker 3: because sometimes we're all so hell bent on what should.
Speaker 1: I be doing next?
Speaker 3: So I just said to her, it's nice to have ambition,
Speaker 3: and it's nice to think about the next year, but
Speaker 3: please don't forget to enjoy what you doing now. And
Speaker 3: I could say this to any of your listeners, like,
Speaker 3: there is joy in what you're doing now, and don't
Speaker 3: forget to enjoy that. And I think that has probably
Speaker 3: had stood me in good stead, because hand on heart,
Speaker 3: I have never asked for any job that I've ever gotten.
Speaker 3: They've always come to me and said, Kylie, would you
Speaker 3: like to do this? Would you like to do that?
Speaker 3: So I've always had of course, you're aware of what's
Speaker 3: going on around you. But for the morning show, I
Speaker 3: was doing updates. I think I just had the boys.
Speaker 3: They were two and four. I was filling and doing
Speaker 3: late night updates. Again happy doing that and this came along.
Speaker 1: Do you know what.
Speaker 3: Lisa Wilkinson actually had the job before I did. We
Speaker 3: were both doing weekend Sunrise together. They asked her to
Speaker 3: be next to Larry on.
Speaker 1: The morning show.
Speaker 3: Now what happened was that the Today's Show on Channel
Speaker 3: nine came along and approached her.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
Speaker 3: So that work came to me and said we want
Speaker 3: you to try it for the morning show, and I
Speaker 3: was flabbergast. I said, no, no, no, that's Lisa's got
Speaker 3: that job, and they went, don't you worry about Lisa,
Speaker 3: don't you worry about Let you come and we want
Speaker 3: you to try out for this. So what did I do?
Speaker 3: I went and told Lisa, said, Lisa, guess this is
Speaker 3: a very political game place come and asked me to
Speaker 3: try out, but this is your this is and she
Speaker 3: looked at me, she said, Kylie, you go right ahead, you
Speaker 3: go and try I'm want to be fine. So clearly
Speaker 3: she wasn't telling me that channel wanted approached it.
Speaker 1: So even for the job I'm doing now.
Speaker 3: I tried to palm it back off to the person
Speaker 3: who I thought had the job. So I just said,
Speaker 3: to this young girl who works for us, don't forget
Speaker 3: to enjoy what you're actually doing now, because I can
Speaker 3: tell that you're enjoying it and live in the moment.
Speaker 3: And if you're really happy in what you're doing, that
Speaker 3: will come across and that will lead to other opportunities.
Speaker 2: You mentored yourself out of being a mentor.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I did.
Speaker 2: We don't need to talk.
Speaker 1: She's now had a baby.
Speaker 3: I rang here only yesterday must have been on my
Speaker 3: mind because I was talking to you and I rang
Speaker 3: here and I said, you're back at work now you've
Speaker 3: had a baby, and she said yes. I said that
Speaker 3: you're happy, said, I'm over the moon, and she said
Speaker 3: Channel seven, I have been so great in the you know,
Speaker 3: I'm just coming back part time. And I said, wow,
Speaker 3: it's all working out, and she said I'm so happy
Speaker 3: that She said, thank you.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute. When I ask Kylie
Speaker 2: how she deals with comparison and second getting herself in
Speaker 2: a notoriously competitive industry, do you reckon it's your personality
Speaker 2: or have you found a way to not do that
Speaker 2: always looking over your shoulder thing, because not only in
Speaker 2: media and lots of professions, and I think that when
Speaker 2: you sometimes get to an age where you're like, looking
Speaker 2: at this is what I've done, this is where I am,
Speaker 2: it's sometimes hard not to compare, contrast, worry, pusha I
Speaker 2: know I do it all the time. I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: I know I'm doing this and I like it, But
Speaker 2: should I be doing that? Do people think I should
Speaker 2: be doing that? What am I going to do next?
Speaker 2: Do you think that's just your personality that's allowed you
Speaker 2: to enjoy and appreciate or is there a trick to it?
Speaker 3: A country upbringing I think has a lot to do
Speaker 3: with it. I remember Larry actually saying to me, it's
Speaker 3: in the first year or two of a spend on
Speaker 3: the show, and he said, with good happens, you don't
Speaker 3: go off, do you? And he said, but that's some taken.
Speaker 3: When something bad happens, you don't go down. So I
Speaker 3: think I'm probably steady as she goes. So probably if
Speaker 3: something amazing happens to me. Look, I'm happier if something
Speaker 3: amazing happens to my family or to my boys. If
Speaker 3: something amazing happens to them, I would much rather that
Speaker 3: than something amazing happens to me. So maybe it's a
Speaker 3: personality thing. Maybe you do get wiser as you get older, too,
Speaker 3: because everything you know it can be taken away from
Speaker 3: you in an instant. So if you're always looking for
Speaker 3: something else and it gets taken away from you, you've
Speaker 3: missed out on all those years of enjoying what you
Speaker 3: could have had, and that goes. It doesn't matter whether
Speaker 3: I think it's TV or whether it be anything anything,
Speaker 3: you know, so you.
Speaker 2: Don't feel that sort of you know, I'm sure there
Speaker 2: are people around who will be like, are you worried
Speaker 2: about what's next? You're like, no, I'm enjoying what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: We'll see what happens next. Yeah, but I'm not ready
Speaker 2: to wind down.
Speaker 3: But it's probably also the reason why I'm not running
Speaker 3: some sort of multimillion dollar company or haven't written five books,
Speaker 3: or I haven't got a podcast or another reason, like,
Speaker 3: you know, I think that's probably you know, maybe I
Speaker 3: could be a little bit more proactivey things like that
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, do I want to do a.
Speaker 3: Podcast, like, probably not, because I'm talking to people two
Speaker 3: and a half hours every day anyway, So I think
Speaker 3: you have you know, but yes, maybe I should be
Speaker 3: off my ass wholly and do a little bit more
Speaker 3: and you know, have a successful clothing line.
Speaker 2: I don't reckon. I think. I look at your life.
Speaker 2: It looks plenty busy enough to me, my goodness, like
Speaker 2: a bit of behind the scenes on a show like yours.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I've only been lucky enough to come
Speaker 2: to the Morning Show I think a couple of times.
Speaker 2: But the thing that's awesome about going on a show
Speaker 2: like yours is that you sit in the green room
Speaker 2: as a guest, and there could be like a dog
Speaker 2: and a fireman and a nana and fourteen children from
Speaker 2: a choir or a really famous singer. It's like every
Speaker 2: day is different, right in terms of what you do
Speaker 2: every day. So you know, you've been on the morning
Speaker 2: show for seventeen years, you say, which is amazing, But
Speaker 2: every day you never know what's going to walk in
Speaker 2: and sit down next to you.
Speaker 3: Today, I think we had how the spotted chet, then
Speaker 3: we morphed into tonail fungus and how mixed vapor Rob
Speaker 3: Hello vix vapor, Rob, you can use that on.
Speaker 1: Your toenails if you've got fungus. Did you know that?
Speaker 1: And then we had a little bit.
Speaker 3: Of American politics, you know, so yeah, you have to
Speaker 3: be a jill of all trade.
Speaker 1: And then we interviewed.
Speaker 3: Doctor Maksteamy Eric Dane, who's in a new movie. Ye
Speaker 3: like it's a lottery. We had a psychologist who was
Speaker 3: on our show and he was sitting on the lounge
Speaker 3: much like you did in the green room, and he's like,
Speaker 3: he did actually say that very thing.
Speaker 1: He said, do you have to shift keys very quickly?
Speaker 2: Don't you?
Speaker 3: I went and I didn't even clock it. I went, yeah,
Speaker 3: now that you mentioned that, yeah, we probably do.
Speaker 2: And also it's you know, I mean, people know this,
Speaker 2: but it's live right.
Speaker 3: Well, my husband will tell you, Holly that I am
Speaker 3: able to shift keys very fair, very quickly. I can
Speaker 3: spin on a dime from happy to oh my god,
Speaker 3: you've left that wet towel on the floor again.
Speaker 1: Yes, he can tell you I can spin on a dime.
Speaker 2: I can imagine talking of your husband and your beautiful boys.
Speaker 2: So all the time that you've been doing this job,
Speaker 2: you've been raising your boys who are now. I believe
Speaker 2: one of them is living overseas.
Speaker 3: He's about to turn twenty two. He's twenty one at
Speaker 3: the moment. He's been living in Europe now for nearly
Speaker 3: a year and a half. He's due to come home
Speaker 3: because his visa expires. He's been doing internships. And Archie's
Speaker 3: nineteen and he's at Uni.
Speaker 2: Is he still at home with you?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, And Gus.
Speaker 3: Will be returning home from Europe because he has not
Speaker 3: only does he have no money, he's like in the minus,
Speaker 3: he's in the negative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yes, or he'll be coming home to his bedroom.
Speaker 2: And I bet that you're probably relatively happy about that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, look, it'll be an adjustment. I want to
Speaker 1: ask you about that.
Speaker 2: A lot of our listeners obviously are in the phase
Speaker 2: we well. Actually, one of the things that's interesting I
Speaker 2: think about women of our generation, we're in all kinds
Speaker 2: of different situations. Some of us have still got primary
Speaker 2: school kids, and some of us have got adult kids
Speaker 2: and stuf of us at grandma's and some of us
Speaker 2: obviously don't have kids at all.
Speaker 1: I was thirty six when I had guessed yeah.
Speaker 2: So and so like me, I actually had my kids
Speaker 2: quite late late in inverted commas like it's such a
Speaker 2: nonsense word.
Speaker 3: But yes, so when the medical term is jury, actually igne,
Speaker 3: well yeah that's the horrible term.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Was forty when I had my second child, and I
Speaker 2: always remember the midwife who as much she called me
Speaker 2: because I was over you, and she goes, I've just
Speaker 2: realized you're forty, And I was like, you've just realized,
Speaker 2: like we've been sitting there for nine months. We're not
Speaker 2: allowed to let geriatric women go over the dune day.
Speaker 2: Can you come into me? And I was like, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, I felt one hundred years old. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 2: I digress not about me. I want to talk to
Speaker 2: you a bit about your identity as your family grow, right,
Speaker 2: because you would have had a lot of these seventeen years,
Speaker 2: that crazy time when the kids are little and the
Speaker 2: juggle is intense, and how that shifts as they get older.
Speaker 2: Do you look back on that time and wonder how
Speaker 2: the hell you even did that? Because your husband, Tony
Speaker 2: also has had a quite a big job of big career, Yes,
Speaker 2: do you wonder how the hell you did it? And
Speaker 2: do you ever miss that time?
Speaker 1: Okay, do I miss it? Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I miss being on the side of the footy ground.
Speaker 3: I miss the you're involved in the manutia of their life.
Speaker 3: That's the great thing, but also the bad thing is
Speaker 3: the minutia of their life. So I used to have
Speaker 3: because Tony would go to work very early, I would
Speaker 3: have to be early for the morning show would you have.
Speaker 3: We were lucky enough to be able to have a
Speaker 3: nanny that would come in until I got home, So
Speaker 3: it was like from seven am.
Speaker 1: Probably till midday. Very lucky.
Speaker 3: Didn't have to do that rushing to the childcare, but
Speaker 3: I would rush home to relieve the nanny by mid day.
Speaker 3: Do you know what, Holly, I found a book. We
Speaker 3: had a book that would see on the kitchen bench
Speaker 3: and I would write in all the details to tell
Speaker 3: the nanny.
Speaker 1: We were beautiful. We had a local family.
Speaker 3: They were twin boys who were at UNI and their
Speaker 3: sister they were our nanni's so between the three of them,
Speaker 3: they still like their parents still live down the road
Speaker 3: from us.
Speaker 1: We were so lucky, so.
Speaker 3: I would write all the details of the day into
Speaker 3: this book.
Speaker 1: Now. I found that book just last week.
Speaker 3: It made me cry because it was stuff like Gus
Speaker 3: has the sport carnival today. The green T shirt I
Speaker 3: washed last night, it's hanging up in the laundry. He
Speaker 3: will need cut up oranges. We're on orange, Judy. You'll
Speaker 3: find the oranges in the bottom of the crisper. Please
Speaker 3: cut the oranges into eight and make sure you use
Speaker 3: that type of word.
Speaker 1: But make sure the top.
Speaker 3: I like, who was I? That was like crazy woman?
Speaker 3: It was, and every single day was like that. How
Speaker 3: lucky it was I that I had someone to do that,
Speaker 3: But I was hanging on so tightly. I could feel
Speaker 3: the tension in the pages. I have to ring up
Speaker 3: the nannies now and apologize for what a crazy woman
Speaker 3: I must have been.
Speaker 1: But all that stuff is important.
Speaker 3: If he didn't have his green shirt because it was
Speaker 3: house color day, that would have been a really big
Speaker 3: thing for the ten year old not.
Speaker 1: To have his house color T shirt.
Speaker 2: You've got like a physical representation of the very relatetionable
Speaker 2: mental load that all women are carrying.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent.
Speaker 3: It was my mind on the page, and it made
Speaker 3: me want to cry, and it made me want to
Speaker 3: go and hug every single woman in the office who
Speaker 3: have kids of that age, because I'm like, oh, man,
Speaker 3: I'm seeing you all over again, and.
Speaker 1: So I was taken back.
Speaker 3: So gradually, gradually, gradually, as they go to high school,
Speaker 3: you don't have to worry about the green T shirt anymore,
Speaker 3: although I probably did, but they kind of start to
Speaker 3: look after that themselves, so you gradually get weaned off it,
Speaker 3: until one day you wake up and you go, oh,
Speaker 3: they don't need any of that anymore.
Speaker 1: They don't need me to write in a book. They
Speaker 1: don't want me to come to the sports carnival, you know.
Speaker 2: And when that happened that moment, because I'm most still
Speaker 2: a little way off that yet my daughter's fourteen, but
Speaker 2: it's definitely shifted already for me, Like it's a weaned
Speaker 2: yeah process, and it's a slow like the doors closed now,
Speaker 2: the bedroom door instead of always being open, and all
Speaker 2: those things. Did you have a mouthed out? Did you
Speaker 2: handle it in a very emotionally mature fashion?
Speaker 1: Do you know why?
Speaker 3: I found that if you speak to your girlfriends, so
Speaker 3: you are the school mum friends, I guess, and you
Speaker 3: all go through it, and I leant on them a
Speaker 3: lot and continue to do so. I'll never forget the
Speaker 3: boys were older, they'd all gone away for a couple
Speaker 3: of days. I think they would have been old enough
Speaker 3: to drive, so they drove themselves. Maybe they were year twelve.
Speaker 3: And do you know what, those buggers they'd been away
Speaker 3: for three days altogether. They came home, dump their stuff.
Speaker 3: I'd prepared a beautiful dinner.
Speaker 1: Welcome home, Gus. You must be starving.
Speaker 3: You've been away for three days, and I've cooked lamb roast,
Speaker 3: your favorite.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh no, we're going out.
Speaker 3: Literally he was home for I think twenty four and
Speaker 3: not long enough to have a shower, dump his stuff.
Speaker 1: And go again. They were all going out to somewhere else.
Speaker 3: Ah, And I like it, like really upset me, and
Speaker 3: I'm went to my husband tiny.
Speaker 1: He didn't even He's like, okay, see yeah, see ya.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, but why wouldn't he want to spend
Speaker 1: that dinner with us? He hasn't seen us for three days.
Speaker 3: I will never forget that moment. And I like, I
Speaker 3: got the shits. I thought, you feel like you're going insane,
Speaker 3: and you feel clinging and you feel needy. And of
Speaker 3: course he went and I went, Okay, then whatever, which
Speaker 3: is really yeasure.
Speaker 1: Whatever.
Speaker 3: Then it was only a couple days later I speaking
Speaker 3: to one of the other mums and the same thing,
Speaker 3: of course happened to her because they're all meeting up.
Speaker 3: And she said, I did exactly the same thing, kindly,
Speaker 3: and you're what my husband said, yeah, seeya, okay, glad
Speaker 3: you had a good time. And she said, you know,
Speaker 3: to her husband, but why don't they want to And he.
Speaker 1: Said, they're boys. Let them go now.
Speaker 3: If I had my time over again, I would go,
Speaker 3: did you have a good time?
Speaker 1: Terrific? See you later.
Speaker 3: So there are times like that which I have learnt
Speaker 3: now for my second that sometimes you have to just
Speaker 3: let them do that, and.
Speaker 2: Do you find another way to? And I don't necessarily
Speaker 2: buy into the idea it's different with boys and girls.
Speaker 2: But maybe it is because I know you're one of
Speaker 2: two girls, right, you've got two boys, yes, and I've
Speaker 2: got one of each. Actually, But friends of mine who
Speaker 2: have boys say it's like a breakup. It's like a
Speaker 2: slow breakup almost, But you obviously have to find, well,
Speaker 2: what's my new identity now now that I'm not yellow
Speaker 2: T shirt? Your favorite roast dinner, cutting up the oranges,
Speaker 2: and I know you'd rather be with your mates, which
Speaker 2: is very normal and you know now it's to you
Speaker 2: and have you figured that out?
Speaker 3: I'm slowly figuring it out. And yes, it's an adjustment.
Speaker 3: And is there a morning period?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? And who wrote beautifully about this was mea Friedman.
Speaker 3: She wrote beautifully about the looks of like the longest
Speaker 3: breakup you'll ever have and the last. Actually I remember
Speaker 3: quoting me as Page once about you never know it's
Speaker 3: the last time you hold their hand as they walk
Speaker 3: across the road, or the last time you cut up
Speaker 3: the oranges, all the last time I would photograph the
Speaker 3: boys AFL games, and you never know they're the last
Speaker 3: until they're the last, and.
Speaker 1: Then you look back. Yeah, I'm slightly figuring it out.
Speaker 3: And because I have Tiny by my side as well,
Speaker 3: sort of turned to each other and do we still
Speaker 3: like each other? Yes we do, And so that's a
Speaker 3: really lovely thing to have. I think if I didn't
Speaker 3: have that it would maybe be a little bit hard,
Speaker 3: but maybe not. I think you lean on your friends,
Speaker 3: and that's where connection is so important, and that's where
Speaker 3: psychologists talk about that that having other people in your
Speaker 3: life that you are connected to, whether it be friends,
Speaker 3: whether it be the lady down the road, whether it
Speaker 3: be your neighbor. So I am lucky enough to have
Speaker 3: We are lucky enough to have a strong support network
Speaker 3: of people who are going through the same thing. And
Speaker 3: we have now once a month Friday night catch ups
Speaker 3: with one group and then there's another group who are
Speaker 3: going out with next. I'd just back from a little
Speaker 3: mini break with another set of friends, friends who we've known,
Speaker 3: by the way for thirty five years, as long as
Speaker 3: we've been married.
Speaker 1: So you have to have that support network.
Speaker 2: And I think life's right, which you have obviously with
Speaker 2: work and all the things that you do. There's still
Speaker 2: a gap, but presumably it's not as you're as it
Speaker 2: could be.
Speaker 3: And it's not about money Either's sure, going on on
Speaker 3: mini break that's about whether you've got money to do that,
Speaker 3: and I get that. But the sort of things I
Speaker 3: do as well, nothing about that. I have enaghbor two
Speaker 3: doors down, her kids, a little bit older than me.
Speaker 3: We will go walking maybe twice a week. Will text
Speaker 3: you around yep, let's go for a walk, and we'll
Speaker 3: go for a walk. Oh, I should talk about our
Speaker 3: walking club with another group of friends in our suburb.
Speaker 3: We've got this walking challenge for the year we have
Speaker 3: to do I think four million steps.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 3: So once we clock our steps, you know, you've got
Speaker 3: that app on your phone once a month. My husband
Speaker 3: collates and we're competing as individuals and as couples. There's
Speaker 3: five couples, and it's about being active. It's not about
Speaker 3: who can walk the most. It's the person who walks
Speaker 3: the least has to walk to lunch and perhaps shout
Speaker 3: the group masch fantastic. So I've been doing that since
Speaker 3: the first of January we started. It's still going. The
Speaker 3: winter months, I've got to say those steps have dropped off.
Speaker 2: But the five couple there's also something wonderful about walking
Speaker 2: with friends, Like it's a way of catching up that
Speaker 2: isn't as intense as sitting across a table, like having
Speaker 2: I don't know, I really you often share really interesting
Speaker 2: things when you all.
Speaker 3: So we would you always like meet friends for coffee.
Speaker 3: Now it tends to be how are you around for
Speaker 3: a walk? So that's good for people our wage. It
Speaker 3: gets you outside. It doesn't cost a sin. So going
Speaker 3: to coffee will cost you fifteen bucks these days, yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: walking around the block love and costing.
Speaker 2: I think after this short break we talk about Kylie's
Speaker 2: grown up sons and what she's learned about letting go,
Speaker 2: if anything, your relationship with the boys now that they
Speaker 2: are so independent. I read a beautiful profile of you
Speaker 2: in the Australian Woman's Weekly with your boy got the
Speaker 2: handsome boys if I take after their father and all
Speaker 2: poor Tony, and in it you quote this beautiful quote
Speaker 2: from I think Mother Teresa about understanding. And I have
Speaker 2: struggled with this, so I want advice about understanding that
Speaker 2: You're kids are basically not you. And the quote you
Speaker 2: used was you'll teach them to fly, but they will
Speaker 2: not fly your flight. You'll teach them to dream, but
Speaker 2: they will not dream your dream. And I find that
Speaker 2: very hard. And I want you to tell me how
Speaker 2: to shut up and just let them live rather than
Speaker 2: always be going well, I think you should and don't
Speaker 2: you want to? And I bet you'd be better like
Speaker 2: don't you know? Don't you want to get into this?
Speaker 2: Or do that?
Speaker 1: Or all those things?
Speaker 3: Oh Holly, And it's so hard not to. And I
Speaker 3: stumbled across that quote too late. If only I had
Speaker 3: that in year seven when I I said to Gus,
Speaker 3: why don't you join the improv, theater group, and why
Speaker 3: don't you join the debating team? All the things that
Speaker 3: I did. He did the improv he lasted a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks and he was really good at it, but
Speaker 3: then he didn't last at it and they went the
Speaker 3: more sporty route again. I wish I had that wisdom
Speaker 3: and hindsight. I think I'm really better at it now.
Speaker 3: I'm better at it with Archie, our second born, than
Speaker 3: I am with Gus. Gus first, I don't know, you
Speaker 3: have all this expectation. Leaving and doing his own path
Speaker 3: in Europe has been the best thing for him and
Speaker 3: for us, because I do think I hold on too tight?
Speaker 3: Are you the mum who's always texting like hey, and
Speaker 3: he's like, well we're on what's the app again? He's
Speaker 3: got so much better at that since he's been away. Look,
Speaker 3: hand on heart, I've been really proud of what I've
Speaker 3: been able to do while he's in Europe and pull back.
Speaker 3: I've really pulled back and that's allowed him to thrive
Speaker 3: and find his own path. And people say, what's he
Speaker 3: going to do when he gets back, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: I don't know, It's up to him. He's had a
Speaker 3: taste of what he'd like to do, and that's on
Speaker 3: him now, Archie. He sort of forges his own path anyway.
Speaker 3: So it's hard. The sooner you can wrap your head
Speaker 3: around it, the better. I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker 3: You have to let them, but you have to support them.
Speaker 3: I don't know, Holly, I really don't know when you're in.
Speaker 2: It, when you think they're making a bad choice. Because
Speaker 2: this is what I often struggle with now. It gives
Speaker 2: me a lot of insight into what I was like
Speaker 2: at that age and what my mom must have had
Speaker 2: to swallow her tongue. I mean, when you think they're
Speaker 2: making a bad choice, sometimes you have to just go.
Speaker 2: I guess you can talk to Tony about it, right,
Speaker 2: but you have to just go It's okay?
Speaker 1: Is their thing?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: Have you learned how to do?
Speaker 3: I read this quite one to where you shouldn't buddy
Speaker 3: in with your opinion. You should ask the question and say, well, darling,
Speaker 3: if you did that, what would be the consequence?
Speaker 1: But do we do that in the heat of the moment.
Speaker 1: We don't do that. We go away being so like idiot,
Speaker 1: like what, I can't believe you.
Speaker 3: I've gone off so many times, and if I had
Speaker 3: just had the self restraint to then ask questions, that
Speaker 3: would have been.
Speaker 1: A whole lot better.
Speaker 3: But look, you know what, I'm also like, I beat
Speaker 3: myself up about it. I'm like, you do the best
Speaker 3: that you can do. I have so many parenting books
Speaker 3: it's not funny. Yeah, I flip through them from time
Speaker 3: to time, But when you're in the thick of it,
Speaker 3: it's really hard. And I just think, lean on the
Speaker 3: people who can support you. And you have to be
Speaker 3: very care with other mum friends not to portray confidence,
Speaker 3: says as well do because that can happen. You don't
Speaker 3: want to go running to your other mum friend and
Speaker 3: go ahhrah ah rah and suddenly you know they're learning
Speaker 3: all about stuff. That's so you have to be smart
Speaker 3: about it. Trust your gud like you can just trust
Speaker 3: your gud like, do you know what, I don't think
Speaker 3: my mum would have read a parenting book in her life.
Speaker 3: And she's my mum and she's the best mum I
Speaker 3: could hope for. Could she write a book about parenting? No?
Speaker 1: Did mum make a lot of mistakes? Probably? Do I
Speaker 1: remember them? Not really, Like I.
Speaker 3: Just know that she's my mum and she's there for me.
Speaker 3: And that's all I want is for my kids to
Speaker 3: know that I'm their mum and I will always be
Speaker 3: there for them, and I can only be who I am.
Speaker 3: But another good quote is, and I did actually say
Speaker 3: this to us once, I am being the mum to
Speaker 3: a twenty one year old for the first time ever.
Speaker 3: I've never been mum to a twenty one year old,
Speaker 3: so I'm not really sure about this either, so let's
Speaker 3: figure it out together.
Speaker 2: I am in that beautiful Weekly story. Also, I'm not
Speaker 2: sure which one of you boys said this. They said
Speaker 2: they remember doing a shoot like that when they were
Speaker 2: four or young and they didn't really like it, but
Speaker 2: they really liked it this.
Speaker 1: Time around has grown up?
Speaker 2: Is that also a bit of a challenge, Like do
Speaker 2: you think it's been a challenge for the boys to
Speaker 2: be I have parents in the public eye.
Speaker 1: They haven't done a.
Speaker 3: Lot as far as that's the first time they've ever
Speaker 3: been quoted. I think was in the Women's Week and
Speaker 3: they were nineteen and twenty one, so I figured that
Speaker 3: was ok.
Speaker 1: That was okay.
Speaker 3: Why they liked it this time is that they got
Speaker 3: Ralph Lauren suits, and the suit's worth two thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: They didn't get to keep them. I think I actually
Speaker 3: tried on He said, oh mom, this is a lovely suit.
Speaker 3: I went, yes, isn't it? And give it back please
Speaker 3: to the stylist.
Speaker 2: You should have spilt something on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh damn, I didn't.
Speaker 3: So it wasn't a struggle for them, I don't think,
Speaker 3: but I've tried to. Some people are really precious about it,
Speaker 3: and that's good. I always thought I've got some access
Speaker 3: to some really good photographers through these magazines. I have
Speaker 3: got the best family album. So do you want to
Speaker 3: export your kids? No? Look, I think I've probably done
Speaker 3: one when they were little. I think was on Dancing
Speaker 3: with the Stars and they just stood there. So two
Speaker 3: thousand and nine, twenty twenty throat and.
Speaker 2: Now you can put the pictures on the wall and
Speaker 2: happy days. Talking about your mum. She called Mark Margaret Margaret.
Speaker 2: Sorry I shouldn't call it.
Speaker 3: We all call it Giama. That's what the boys call her,
Speaker 3: and so we all just now call a gema. I'll
Speaker 3: ring up, go high dreamer.
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about your parents because also something
Speaker 2: that is a very mid experience is you've got your kids.
Speaker 2: You know you're looking after your kids, and your parents
Speaker 2: are getting older. And I know you lost your beautiful
Speaker 2: dad a few years ago and you have written so
Speaker 2: beautifully about that. And also it was COVID and you
Speaker 2: couldn't go to his funeral, and that's just I can't imagine.
Speaker 2: How do you juggle that, that feeling of you know,
Speaker 2: caring for parents. Why you've got a family and I
Speaker 2: know that, like me, you live away from them. What
Speaker 2: have you learned about that process?
Speaker 1: And how so they do you call it the sandwich? Yes,
Speaker 1: yes to some extent.
Speaker 3: My dad got sick and so Mum and Dad left
Speaker 3: the family home of Tamworth where they had lived oh
Speaker 3: since they were married, so they had lived there for
Speaker 3: forty five years in the same house, and when Dad
Speaker 3: got sick, they made the decision to move to Queensland
Speaker 3: to be closer to my sister so she could be
Speaker 3: of support. So my sister Stacy is an amazing support
Speaker 3: to Mum and continues to be And it's coming up
Speaker 3: to three years since we lost dad, so I feel
Speaker 3: that she was a great support to them and continues
Speaker 3: to be for Mum, and I have to support her.
Speaker 3: So I think for the people who are really close geographically,
Speaker 3: it's really important to support the kira. Not that Stacey
Speaker 3: is their Kira, but she lives just up the road
Speaker 3: from Mum. So I feel that I like to support Stace,
Speaker 3: and then of course support Mum. Mom comes to Sydney
Speaker 3: with five. Mom down to Sydney, she comes to opening
Speaker 3: nights with me.
Speaker 1: She loves the theater, so that's a real treat to
Speaker 1: be able to take her to.
Speaker 3: Red carpets and opening nights and that's so great, take
Speaker 3: her shopping in Sydney and be there for her in
Speaker 3: those ways. I speak to her almost every day, but
Speaker 3: it's hard.
Speaker 1: It's hard.
Speaker 3: Mum's eighty five though, going eighty six, eighty six, going
Speaker 3: on sixty. She looks in very good form. I saw
Speaker 3: the post she shed.
Speaker 2: I think it was Mother's Day and she was dancing.
Speaker 1: Oh, that was my sister's wedding.
Speaker 3: My sister got married recently in Bali and Mom kicked
Speaker 3: her shoes off and was dancing barefoot. She was horrified
Speaker 3: that I put a barefoot shot of her dancing Like
Speaker 3: the dancing was fine, but Kylely, I haven't got my
Speaker 3: shoes on.
Speaker 1: Mum. We were on the grass. That was fine. It
Speaker 1: was in Bali, it was beside the pool and she.
Speaker 3: Was dancing with the kids. So she loves her grandchildren.
Speaker 3: She's got four, my two boys, my sister's two girls.
Speaker 3: She loves them to bits. She is there for them.
Speaker 3: Sometimes she's speaking to my children even when I'm not.
Speaker 3: Not I'm not speaking to them, but she'll say, oh,
Speaker 3: I spoke to Gus.
Speaker 1: You're saying what he rang you. He's in Berlin. He
Speaker 1: rang you, he didn't ring me.
Speaker 3: So I love that she has that relationship with her grandkids,
Speaker 3: and she's obviously very close to my sister as well.
Speaker 3: It can be a juggle, I guess, but again it's
Speaker 3: just that you do what you do. You do.
Speaker 1: It's hard, I.
Speaker 2: Think if you're away. I mean, obviously my situation is
Speaker 2: different again because my parents are in England so very far.
Speaker 3: It's very difficult. My girlfriend's in the same situation. She
Speaker 3: feels that pool immensely.
Speaker 2: And my brother's there but I'm here.
Speaker 1: Okay, So do you support your brother, Holly.
Speaker 2: So that's what I'm trying to do at the moment.
Speaker 2: Is like, because they're getting to that age where things
Speaker 2: are beginning to happen? Is it inevitable? I think it's
Speaker 2: very difficult. Like your parents sound like very capable, independent,
Speaker 2: like hard work people who the idea of being cared
Speaker 2: for or is.
Speaker 1: Like their worst nightmare. Oh horrible.
Speaker 2: So knowing that that's what's ahead, you know, it's either
Speaker 2: happening or it's about to happen, is very hard for
Speaker 2: them as well. And so being far away, you know,
Speaker 2: I reach out to my brother about it a lot,
Speaker 2: but I worry and I panic about what will happen
Speaker 2: when this happens and that happens, and shouldn't a daughter
Speaker 2: be there? And there's guilt. I don't know what have
Speaker 2: you got to teach me about that?
Speaker 1: Kind I think you support your brother.
Speaker 3: I think it's really important to do that because he's
Speaker 3: on the ground and as capable as your parents are,
Speaker 3: they will be leaning on him. So it's important that
Speaker 3: you help prop him up as well. And I've tried
Speaker 3: to do that for Stace, so I'm not sure. I'm
Speaker 3: not sure if she thinks I would, but it's you know,
Speaker 3: you take the phone calls and you make sure you ring.
Speaker 1: Her as well.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting to know my brother in law is
Speaker 3: a beautiful man, and I spoke to him about this
Speaker 3: recently and he said, there's lots of grief that goes
Speaker 3: through for older people. So Mum would be grieving Dad's loss.
Speaker 3: She's still miss as dead terribly, but then also grieving
Speaker 3: maybe the loss of her license or the loss of
Speaker 3: you know, there's many milestones that happen when you reach
Speaker 3: a certain age. And so my brother in law said
Speaker 3: to me, Kylie, remember that there is stages of grief,
Speaker 3: and it's not just the grief about dad, but it's
Speaker 3: a grief about much the same as us and the
Speaker 3: kids leaving home. There's grief, and so you have to
Speaker 3: recognize that and listen to them and support them and
Speaker 3: don't try and cajole them too much, like hear them out,
Speaker 3: because they just want to be heard. So it's no
Speaker 3: good if they go i'm feeling really sad about this and.
Speaker 1: You go, oh, well, that doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: Let's the same as if you said I'm feeling really
Speaker 3: sad about your daughter. She's not in you twelve, but
Speaker 3: my I'm feeling really sad about my daughter finishing year
Speaker 3: twelve and someone goes, well, it's okay, she's still da
Speaker 3: da and you just want to be heard, you want
Speaker 3: to go no, I feel really sad. So I think
Speaker 3: it's really important to listen to them and support them
Speaker 3: and let them feel all the feels, because there's nothing
Speaker 3: worse than you know it yourself. If you want to
Speaker 3: go through something and you want to be heard and
Speaker 3: someone doesn't listen to you, that's awful. So I think
Speaker 3: listen is the most important thing that you can do.
Speaker 2: I think that's very good advice.
Speaker 3: And when your brother rings, something goes, Mom is driving
Speaker 3: crazy and you go, what's your brother's name?
Speaker 1: Tom? Tom? Oh, Tom, that must be really harpy.
Speaker 3: Tell me about it, well, Mum, so I think it's
Speaker 3: really important And Tom, yeah, oh well Tom, if you
Speaker 3: just did this, Tom, And if you did this Tom,
Speaker 3: listen to Tom and go I hear you, Tom, What can
Speaker 3: I do to help out? He'll go, oh, nothing, I'm fine,
Speaker 3: and he'll feel better because he's been able to unload
Speaker 3: on you because he can't unload on Mum.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine how difficult it was for you that
Speaker 2: period where you were grieving your dad and the borders
Speaker 2: were closed because Queensland obviously we weren't allowed to go
Speaker 2: up there if you're in New South Wales and that
Speaker 2: must have been unbelievably difficult to get through. You have
Speaker 2: already spoken about it. Sounds like you have a very
Speaker 2: solid partnership.
Speaker 1: We've been married for thirty five years.
Speaker 2: This is amazing.
Speaker 1: But again, I hate that hashtag couple goals, yeah, because.
Speaker 3: I write something nice and someone will say that and
Speaker 3: I go, oh, that's really lovely.
Speaker 1: But oh, it's so not that.
Speaker 3: Like you know, when I'm yelling at him about the
Speaker 3: towel on the floor, hashtag couple goals, you know that's
Speaker 3: also got to be included, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: So is he your biggest support?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 1: Is he the person? Again?
Speaker 3: Someone once said to me, we're talking about relationships, and
Speaker 3: it's like, if something good happens to you, who do
Speaker 3: you want to tell? And he'd be the first person
Speaker 3: I want to tell. Or if something bad happened, who
Speaker 3: do you want to tell first? And he's my person,
Speaker 3: So if you can, you know, it's not oh I
Speaker 3: want to tell my girlfriend. So I think in a couple,
Speaker 3: that's what.
Speaker 1: I want for my boys.
Speaker 3: I would love them to find someone in their life
Speaker 3: who's going to be your person, and it's not that
Speaker 3: one person has to be everything to you, but I
Speaker 3: think they've got to be on your side, and I
Speaker 3: think I have to support you. There's also like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, there's there's good times and bad times and
Speaker 3: life it can be shitty, but life can be good
Speaker 3: and it can be shitty, and it can be good
Speaker 3: and shitty all.
Speaker 1: In one day or all in one hour.
Speaker 3: Come in.
Speaker 1: I just think you have to it. We met. I
Speaker 1: was married two days after I turned twenty two.
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 3: I was engaged when I was I think I was
Speaker 3: twenty so I was just really lucky. I obviously met
Speaker 3: my person when I was young. Where did you meet
Speaker 3: in Tamworth? Tony worked at the local newspaper and I
Speaker 3: worked at the local TV.
Speaker 2: And was he from Tamworth too or was he a
Speaker 2: blowing I look.
Speaker 3: Originally from Adelaide, but had lived in Tamworth since he
Speaker 3: was fourteen, so I had done all his high schooling
Speaker 3: years in Tamworth at the same high school I went to.
Speaker 3: But he's seven years older than I am, so we
Speaker 3: weren't at high school together. But he once came and
Speaker 3: gave a talk at my year eleven journalism class. I
Speaker 3: was on the school newspaper, and Tony was the star
Speaker 3: graduate of the Tamworth High School Kohala newspaper.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 3: And because he had made the big time by being
Speaker 3: a sub editor at the Northern Daily Leader, Tamworth newspaper,
Speaker 3: he was brought back.
Speaker 1: Into the classroom.
Speaker 3: Look, he's our star student, Tony Gillies. He used to
Speaker 3: be at Tamworth High School and now he works on
Speaker 3: the local newspaper.
Speaker 1: Let's hear it from mister Gillies.
Speaker 3: Yay.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 3: And then what I would have been like sixteen, and
Speaker 3: then it turns out how many years later I end
Speaker 3: up marrying him?
Speaker 1: Not that I oh god, no, not that I me
Speaker 1: mayor or whatever. I would meet him.
Speaker 3: So if I was sixteen, then I would meet him
Speaker 3: sort of three years later.
Speaker 2: And I know you would hate this question because, as
Speaker 2: you've just said, it isn't like this. But what happens
Speaker 2: to a lot of people is that, you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of things change between then and now, and it's
Speaker 2: not always easy to stay on the same page. Oh God,
Speaker 2: So do you think there's a secret or do you
Speaker 2: think a lot of it's luck in choosing that person
Speaker 2: at that time?
Speaker 1: Oh? Holly. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's luck, Maybe it's you're a bill to tolerate. Maybe
Speaker 3: I have a high tolerance, Like you've got to tolerate
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff in a person. Right you're living
Speaker 3: in the same house. We've lived together in the same
Speaker 3: house for thirty five years.
Speaker 1: I think it.
Speaker 3: Look, it's understanding. It's tolerance, it's not walking out when
Speaker 3: the going gets tough, but it's also choosing the right person.
Speaker 3: Chinye is a good person. We had shared outlook on life.
Speaker 3: Do you know what that was fifteen years before we
Speaker 3: had kids. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wonder if that's also really helpful at this time
Speaker 2: on the other side of the kids.
Speaker 1: Maybe that was by design.
Speaker 3: I didn't want kids straight away, like I got married
Speaker 3: when I was twenty two. There's no way I wanted
Speaker 3: kids straight away. So we were happy, really happy in
Speaker 3: our careers. This comes back to the loving what you do.
Speaker 3: He's passionate about journalism. I'm passionate about journalism. We both
Speaker 3: loved our work and we were really happy working until
Speaker 3: I did the Sydney Olympics in two thousand.
Speaker 1: That was a goal. Yeah I did that, and then
Speaker 1: we oh, we should think about having kids. Now.
Speaker 3: I had two miscarriages before then falling pregnant with Gus,
Speaker 3: so there was a little like maybe I would have
Speaker 3: had kids maybe when I was thirty three if things
Speaker 3: had gone right, but.
Speaker 1: They didn't, and so I don't know, maybe that's why
Speaker 1: we've lasted.
Speaker 3: I don't look it's it's a crap shoot, like it's
Speaker 3: a it's a like, you know, let's roll the dice
Speaker 3: and see how we go. I do think you have
Speaker 3: to have that shared outlook on life, shared moral compass,
Speaker 3: and be tolerant, I guess I.
Speaker 1: Think, and a lot, you know what, You've got to
Speaker 1: love the person like I can still at time and
Speaker 1: go I love you.
Speaker 2: And you like going away for the weekend with him,
Speaker 2: and you like hanging out with them on a Saturday night,
Speaker 2: and you like that stuff sometimes.
Speaker 3: Sometimes like and sometimes I'm like, oh, I am like
Speaker 3: over you like and I'm going upstairs to bed. But no, look,
Speaker 3: I think you know you have to look at them
Speaker 3: and go, I still love you after all of these years.
Speaker 2: I often think that when you get to this grown
Speaker 2: up age that we are, you've also been through a
Speaker 2: lot of shit together, right, So you know, as you
Speaker 2: just said, you've been through miscarriage together, you've been young together,
Speaker 2: and then losing parents and all the many little scary
Speaker 2: moments with kids, and it's like how you learn a
Speaker 2: lot about somebody and how they react in all those
Speaker 2: moments and if they're going to be there for you.
Speaker 2: And I think that obviously where you are now, you
Speaker 2: know that so solidly.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he's not going anywhere.
Speaker 3: I'm not going anywhere, So we're stuck with each other
Speaker 3: for hopefully a lot of years to come.
Speaker 2: Do you think your parents were really good role models
Speaker 2: for that too?
Speaker 3: Do you think that's well, yeah, they were married for
Speaker 3: I think jashi fifty five years.
Speaker 1: I think they get to fifty six something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I look at Mom and Mom just yeah,
Speaker 3: like when my sister got married, for example, earlier this year,
Speaker 3: like Dad wasn't there for that, And I know Mom
Speaker 3: felt that keenly. So when big things happen in our family,
Speaker 3: Dad's no longer there for it, and so I know
Speaker 3: she feels that we all do. But you know, we're
Speaker 3: all there with our husbanans and you know, grandkids now
Speaker 3: have partners, So I know Mum feels that keenly. But
Speaker 3: Dad lived to be ninety one. So they had many,
Speaker 3: many good years together. And so comes back to saying
Speaker 3: the Mum, that must be really hard and I know
Speaker 3: you must be missing Dad now. So just listening to
Speaker 3: that and then knowing that you had some really great
Speaker 3: years fifty five of them together.
Speaker 2: You did the most beautiful thing that you posted about
Speaker 2: that you took her a sapphire that he'd bought her
Speaker 2: when they were young. I mean put it in a ring.
Speaker 2: I could cry my hide out and reading that, Yeah.
Speaker 3: What that sapphire had been wrapped up in that little
Speaker 3: bit of tissue for fifty years, like for so many years,
Speaker 3: and they just never got around like that's just not
Speaker 3: in them to spend money on getting that made into
Speaker 3: a ring for mum. Do you mean that just wasn't
Speaker 3: probably part of either their budget their inclination. They would
Speaker 3: always spend the money on us going to a school
Speaker 3: camp rather than mum getting a sa fire ring set.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, she was going through some stuff and she
Speaker 1: dug it out.
Speaker 3: I went, Mum, it's time we got that sapphire that
Speaker 3: dad he got it for her from Inverell.
Speaker 1: The sapphire capital of Australia.
Speaker 3: All those years ago, he was working on the road
Speaker 3: doing something, sales or something, and it had sat in
Speaker 3: mums draw for all those years, wrapped up in a
Speaker 3: bit of tissue. So we got it out and we
Speaker 3: got it made into that ring and she wears it
Speaker 3: every day.
Speaker 2: That's such a beautiful story and such a beautiful sort
Speaker 2: of full circle moment too, I think, because you can
Speaker 2: do things for her now.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah? I know.
Speaker 2: Is that something that you often think about as you
Speaker 2: watch your boys grow up, that like the shift? Yeah,
Speaker 2: the shift?
Speaker 3: Oh, the shift has happened with Gus. So I went
Speaker 3: and saw him in Vienna earlier this year and I
Speaker 3: was the one, you know, fumbling on the tram and.
Speaker 1: Stuff like, oh where does this card go? What zone
Speaker 1: are we?
Speaker 3: And he's like oh, And it was the first time
Speaker 3: really I had felt the switch. He was kind of like,
Speaker 3: you know, mothering me, if you like, and you know what,
Speaker 3: it felt great. It's like, you know what, I don't
Speaker 3: have to be in control of this. He's actually he's
Speaker 3: got my back. He's got my back, and he's the
Speaker 3: one showing me around this city and doing the thing
Speaker 3: and knowing how to operate the tram and everything.
Speaker 1: And oh it felt great.
Speaker 3: I just sat back and went mind it was still
Speaker 3: my credit card, that it was.
Speaker 1: My credit card that was getting pulled out.
Speaker 3: Of course it was yeah, him, Mom, this is a
Speaker 3: great new restaurant that I've heard about.
Speaker 1: Really okay, oh, grall, this is great us whitch here?
Speaker 3: I saw this on Insta and then yet yeah, here's
Speaker 3: the bill and as it gets pushed towards it, I've.
Speaker 2: Always wanted to go here. Yes, it's fabulous. How fabulous
Speaker 2: is unbelievable? One last question about we really finished?
Speaker 1: We are nearly finished. Well, I hope I haven't been
Speaker 1: boring to your listeners.
Speaker 2: You're so not boring, But I wanted to ask you
Speaker 2: on my thing about your beautiful mom and a beautiful ring.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like your life has been very different
Speaker 2: like to her life? And do you think at this
Speaker 2: point in your life that it's very different to hers?
Speaker 2: And that beautiful post about the ring? You said they've
Speaker 2: always put us first, They did everything for us. Do
Speaker 2: you feel like you've been able to live more for you?
Speaker 1: Wow, I've never really thought about that.
Speaker 3: To think that mum led any sort of unfulfilled life
Speaker 3: or whatever is not right. She has lived a very
Speaker 3: full life and loves her family very much. Have I
Speaker 3: done more things than Mum? Sure, I've traveled a lot more.
Speaker 3: I've done seven Olympic Games for the seven Network, so
Speaker 3: I've done more things. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: is it the things that matter or is it the
Speaker 3: way you lead your life and the people in it.
Speaker 3: So I think Mum would say to you, Holly, that
Speaker 3: she has led a very full life, she loves her
Speaker 3: family and that she's very happy. And at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, for me, it's not about what schools
Speaker 3: the boys went to or what car I drive. That's
Speaker 3: not what's going to define me. It's when I look
Speaker 3: around and no, am I fulfilled? And that's how I
Speaker 3: will judge whether my life has been successful or not.
Speaker 3: It won't be about the awards or the ratings. It'll
Speaker 3: be how I feel within myself and whether I feel
Speaker 3: that my life has a fullness to it, which has
Speaker 3: got to do with my heart and nothing to do
Speaker 3: with a bank balance.
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 3: So I've lived probably a different life in some respects,
Speaker 3: but in some way I'm still that kid from Tamworth
Speaker 3: who grew up in the weatherboard house which had one toilet,
Speaker 3: one bathroom, and that's how I judged my life.
Speaker 2: I think has your mum always really encouraged your I
Speaker 2: mean I was asking you about whether your life is
Speaker 2: really different to her as a new Harry rightly made
Speaker 2: it very clear that there's no better or worse than
Speaker 2: this or this, no like, the values are absolutely the same.
Speaker 2: But I wonder if your mum was a big cheerleader
Speaker 2: for you in your career and you chasing dreams and
Speaker 2: all those things.
Speaker 3: This was I think a pivotal moment in my life,
Speaker 3: and it comes down to my mum. My husband had
Speaker 3: been transferred to Sydney. I thought I better get a job.
Speaker 3: I was working at the local TV station in Tamworth,
Speaker 3: so I applied to Channel seven for a job. Chinese
Speaker 3: transfer was called off and he had to stay in Tamworth.
Speaker 3: But I got the job at Channel seven. So then
Speaker 3: I'm in this quandary.
Speaker 1: I was thinking.
Speaker 3: I was twenty eight at that point. I was thinking,
Speaker 3: if I don't take this job now at Channel seven,
Speaker 3: I may never get to Sydney. But hang on, my
Speaker 3: husband's transfers called off. He's going to be in Tamworth.
Speaker 3: So I remember sitting with Mum, going, Mum, what am
Speaker 3: I going to do? No, I want this job. It's
Speaker 3: Channel seven. Tiny will end up in Sydney eventually, like
Speaker 3: that's happening. It just got called off temporarily, and she said,
Speaker 3: I'll never forget it. Was sitting on the bed We're
Speaker 3: at my house and she said, Kylie, I think you
Speaker 3: should take it a lot, But Mum, it means leaving
Speaker 3: you and Dad in Tamworth. It means leaving Tony for
Speaker 3: the time being. And she said, Kylie, you've always wanted
Speaker 3: to work in Sydney. I really think you should. Now
Speaker 3: looking back on it, I was actually quite surprised at
Speaker 3: the time, thinking Mum wants me to go. Mum wants
Speaker 3: me to leave Tamworth, but her and Dad are in Tamworth.
Speaker 3: And now I can look back at it now, going
Speaker 3: what an unselfish thing to do. She could have said, oh, Kylie,
Speaker 3: Tiny's transfer has been called off. Why don't you stay.
Speaker 3: Dad and I are here. We would have probably had
Speaker 3: children a lot earlier, she would have had her grandkids
Speaker 3: in Tamworth. But she sat there on that bed and
Speaker 3: she encouraged me to take the job and I will
Speaker 3: be eternally thankful for her because that changed the course
Speaker 3: of my life and Tony's life. He ended up coming
Speaker 3: to Sydney six months later, so we were only apart
Speaker 3: for a little bit and we commuted. But how unselfish
Speaker 3: was that? And like I can look back and go, wow, Mum,
Speaker 3: what an unselfish thing you did, And isn't that wonderful?
Speaker 2: It's very wonderful. It's also back to that quote about
Speaker 2: your child's flight were be yours? Like your flight wasn't hers,
Speaker 2: you know, and it took you away from her at times,
Speaker 2: but she knew.
Speaker 1: That you had to do that. Yeah, like fly and
Speaker 1: chase your dream.
Speaker 2: And I think that just brings us to where we
Speaker 2: started about your values and what's important to you are
Speaker 2: exactly those things. Family, connection, people around you and doing
Speaker 2: something you love right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Like if the television thing all ends tomorrow,
Speaker 3: would I miss one hundred percent, but I'd cry about
Speaker 3: the living friends behind, perhaps not leaving a profile behind,
Speaker 3: so it would be always be about the people.
Speaker 1: It's always got to be about the people.
Speaker 3: I think. I'm sure that's beautiful. Thank you, Kyle, Well,
Speaker 3: thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Mids.
Speaker 2: I really hope you liked that conversation.
Speaker 1: I really did.
Speaker 2: You could probably hear that I got a bit emotional
Speaker 2: talking to Kylie about her parents being separated from the
Speaker 2: people you love as they become more vulnerable is something
Speaker 2: close to my heart, obviously. But I know a lot
Speaker 2: of you are figuring all that out too. If you've
Speaker 2: lost a parent like Kylie has in her beautiful dad,
Speaker 2: and you're trying to grapple with how to move through it,
Speaker 2: I want to point you to an episode we made
Speaker 2: in season one about grief and loss with an incredible woman,
Speaker 2: one of those names you might not know, called Jackie Bailey.
Speaker 2: It can be a really difficult time, as our relationships
Speaker 2: with our parents aren't always simple and smiley, of course,
Speaker 2: and she talks really beautifully about that. But also I
Speaker 2: hope you detected a lot of joy in Kylie, a
Speaker 2: woman who clearly loves what she does, loves her family fiercely,
Speaker 2: and isn't slowing down as she moves through the shift.
Speaker 2: Please tell me what you thought about the episode. We've
Speaker 2: got an Instagram account mid by Mamma Mia. You can
Speaker 2: follow and comment and we read absolutely everything you say there,
Speaker 2: and also on my own account, of course, which is
Speaker 2: with much hilarity from the gen zs in the office
Speaker 2: at Wainwright Holly on Instagram. So listen your green, have
Speaker 2: a great day, and I'll be waiting for you back
Speaker 2: here next week when we're talking about money with a
Speaker 2: very surprising guest. Goodbye,