1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,112 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:14,392 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. On the morning 3 00:00:14,592 --> 00:00:18,631 Speaker 1: of August third, nineteen ninety eight, John Ferlin did what 4 00:00:18,712 --> 00:00:22,232 Speaker 1: he always did, a creature of habit. The Melbourne businessman 5 00:00:22,352 --> 00:00:25,512 Speaker 1: got up, got dressed, then jumped in his white Suberu 6 00:00:25,552 --> 00:00:27,752 Speaker 1: Liberty and drove to the local shops to pick up 7 00:00:27,752 --> 00:00:30,432 Speaker 1: his coffee and newspaper before he'd head into work at 8 00:00:30,432 --> 00:00:33,872 Speaker 1: his business, a local auto salva yard in Coburg. It's 9 00:00:33,912 --> 00:00:36,431 Speaker 1: a typical Melbourne day. People are on their way to 10 00:00:36,472 --> 00:00:40,071 Speaker 1: work or school, grabbing their own morning survival fluids before 11 00:00:40,152 --> 00:00:43,831 Speaker 1: hopping into cars or onto nearby public transport. As he 12 00:00:43,912 --> 00:00:46,951 Speaker 1: drives down Lawrenceon Street, the time ticks over to eight 13 00:00:47,071 --> 00:00:54,072 Speaker 1: forty five am and John Ferlin ceases to exist. The 14 00:00:54,072 --> 00:00:58,072 Speaker 1: blast that tore his Subaru down the middle will be 15 00:00:58,152 --> 00:01:02,232 Speaker 1: felt up to five kilometers away. The car itself is 16 00:01:02,272 --> 00:01:05,872 Speaker 1: thrown fifteen meters down the road, spreading debris across a 17 00:01:05,872 --> 00:01:09,271 Speaker 1: three hun hundred meter radius. The windows of nearby homes 18 00:01:09,312 --> 00:01:12,192 Speaker 1: and shops are blown out as the cars park down 19 00:01:12,191 --> 00:01:16,231 Speaker 1: the street are also left scorched and twisted by sheer 20 00:01:16,631 --> 00:01:20,991 Speaker 1: luck or perhaps design. Not a single other person on 21 00:01:21,032 --> 00:01:25,271 Speaker 1: that busy suburban Melbourne shopping strip is killed, leaving John 22 00:01:25,352 --> 00:01:29,512 Speaker 1: Ferlin as the only victim. As police investigate, they realized 23 00:01:29,512 --> 00:01:33,032 Speaker 1: that John's cart isn't running on LPG gas as they expected. 24 00:01:33,792 --> 00:01:37,752 Speaker 1: This was no faulty tank explosion. This was a car 25 00:01:37,831 --> 00:01:42,312 Speaker 1: bomb and it was big, big enough to make a statement. 26 00:01:46,551 --> 00:01:49,632 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a 27 00:01:49,672 --> 00:01:53,192 Speaker 1: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 28 00:01:53,232 --> 00:01:56,392 Speaker 1: the people who know the most about them. There are 29 00:01:56,512 --> 00:01:59,392 Speaker 1: very few cases of car bombing debts here in Australia. 30 00:01:59,712 --> 00:02:02,511 Speaker 1: The most notable is the nineteen eighty six Russell Street 31 00:02:02,512 --> 00:02:05,791 Speaker 1: bombing that targeted Victorian police, the blast taking the life 32 00:02:05,832 --> 00:02:09,112 Speaker 1: of Angelo Rose Taylor, the first female Australian police officer 33 00:02:09,152 --> 00:02:11,792 Speaker 1: to be killed in the line of duty. Well that 34 00:02:11,872 --> 00:02:14,272 Speaker 1: case led to the arrest of several men. The death 35 00:02:14,272 --> 00:02:18,632 Speaker 1: of John Ferlin remains unsolved. What we do know is 36 00:02:18,632 --> 00:02:22,432 Speaker 1: that John, through his business, had ties to underworld criminals. 37 00:02:22,912 --> 00:02:24,912 Speaker 1: Was this a case of him threatening the wrong person? 38 00:02:25,912 --> 00:02:29,632 Speaker 1: He was also a known ladies man. Did he maybe 39 00:02:29,672 --> 00:02:32,912 Speaker 1: mess with the wrong man's wife? And who was the 40 00:02:32,992 --> 00:02:35,552 Speaker 1: man who eventually came forward to confess that it was 41 00:02:35,672 --> 00:02:38,272 Speaker 1: he who had made and placed the bomb on John's car, 42 00:02:38,912 --> 00:02:41,912 Speaker 1: only for him to die just seventeen days after his 43 00:02:41,952 --> 00:02:46,392 Speaker 1: admission to police. The case of John Feln is messy 44 00:02:46,512 --> 00:02:49,472 Speaker 1: and complex, with those closest to the center of this 45 00:02:49,552 --> 00:02:54,032 Speaker 1: tale dying in suspicious circumstances. Was it a hit? Had 46 00:02:54,072 --> 00:02:56,312 Speaker 1: he left explosives in the back of his car by mistake? 47 00:02:57,032 --> 00:02:59,152 Speaker 1: And what was the message being sent by doing it 48 00:02:59,192 --> 00:03:02,312 Speaker 1: in such dramatic fashion? And was the death of John 49 00:03:02,352 --> 00:03:05,392 Speaker 1: Ferlin a part of the Melbourne gangland? Was that saw 50 00:03:05,512 --> 00:03:08,472 Speaker 1: up to forty p executed many of them in public 51 00:03:08,712 --> 00:03:12,072 Speaker 1: in the fifteen years that followed. Adam Shannd is an 52 00:03:12,072 --> 00:03:15,912 Speaker 1: Australian journalist, writer and investigative reporter with over thirty five 53 00:03:15,992 --> 00:03:19,432 Speaker 1: years of experience in television, print and online media. Currently, 54 00:03:19,552 --> 00:03:22,272 Speaker 1: he serves as Crime editor for Real Crime Australia and 55 00:03:22,312 --> 00:03:25,592 Speaker 1: continues to produce investigative reports and content related to crime, 56 00:03:25,712 --> 00:03:29,112 Speaker 1: history and justice in Australia. He's hosted several true crime 57 00:03:29,152 --> 00:03:33,112 Speaker 1: podcasts and co hosts Hunters, a true crime investigative series 58 00:03:33,152 --> 00:03:36,512 Speaker 1: alongside former detective Steve van Apron. He joins us Now 59 00:03:38,032 --> 00:03:41,112 Speaker 1: Adam shand thank you so much for joining us on 60 00:03:41,152 --> 00:03:44,312 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations today. We are big fans of your work. 61 00:03:44,352 --> 00:03:46,152 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for giving up a bit of 62 00:03:46,192 --> 00:03:46,752 Speaker 1: time for us. 63 00:03:47,152 --> 00:03:49,392 Speaker 2: My absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. Well. 64 00:03:49,392 --> 00:03:54,512 Speaker 1: Today we're talking about the really quite intense story of 65 00:03:54,672 --> 00:03:58,952 Speaker 1: John Ferlin. I think not many Australians, especially maybe not 66 00:03:59,032 --> 00:04:03,432 Speaker 1: younger Australians would either remember this case or would understand 67 00:04:03,472 --> 00:04:07,912 Speaker 1: just how unique it is in Australian criminal law, because 68 00:04:08,752 --> 00:04:11,832 Speaker 1: we just don't do car bombing very often in this country, do. 69 00:04:11,872 --> 00:04:15,272 Speaker 2: We don't, We don't. The other really notable one was 70 00:04:15,312 --> 00:04:18,551 Speaker 2: the Russell Street police headquarters getting bombed back in March 71 00:04:18,672 --> 00:04:22,192 Speaker 2: eighty six, and usually our killing is a lot more targeted. 72 00:04:22,672 --> 00:04:28,512 Speaker 2: This one was very public, incredibly violent one that was 73 00:04:28,552 --> 00:04:30,312 Speaker 2: just a miracle. No one else was killed or even 74 00:04:30,312 --> 00:04:33,352 Speaker 2: injured in this. It was just pure luck rather than 75 00:04:33,392 --> 00:04:36,032 Speaker 2: the planning or calculation of the bomber. 76 00:04:36,352 --> 00:04:38,992 Speaker 1: I'd love to start off with just first asking you 77 00:04:39,112 --> 00:04:43,871 Speaker 1: who John Ferlan was, because when you've investigated in talking 78 00:04:43,872 --> 00:04:46,592 Speaker 1: to his friends, he's one person, but then when you 79 00:04:46,632 --> 00:04:48,952 Speaker 1: talk to his business associates, he seems to be another. 80 00:04:49,312 --> 00:04:51,592 Speaker 1: So he seems to be two separate characters. Can you 81 00:04:51,632 --> 00:04:52,952 Speaker 1: give us an idea of who they are? 82 00:04:53,752 --> 00:04:55,912 Speaker 2: Well, he was a very typical sort of guy you 83 00:04:55,952 --> 00:04:59,392 Speaker 2: meet in the motor trade in Melbourne at a car 84 00:04:59,472 --> 00:05:05,432 Speaker 2: wrecking business. He'd bought and sold cars, particularly VW's and Subaru's. 85 00:05:06,792 --> 00:05:08,272 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even say he had a check 86 00:05:08,312 --> 00:05:11,152 Speaker 2: it past because he had no criminal history whatsoever. He 87 00:05:11,272 --> 00:05:14,112 Speaker 2: was steeped in the normal little disputes you have in 88 00:05:14,152 --> 00:05:17,992 Speaker 2: the car industry about you know, the condition of vehicles, 89 00:05:18,992 --> 00:05:22,592 Speaker 2: money here and there. And that was that's what made 90 00:05:22,632 --> 00:05:25,592 Speaker 2: his murder so remarkable. That he wasn't the sort of 91 00:05:25,632 --> 00:05:29,312 Speaker 2: person that would engender such fierce hatred to do him 92 00:05:29,312 --> 00:05:31,952 Speaker 2: away with in such a public. 93 00:05:31,632 --> 00:05:33,992 Speaker 1: Way, Because his friends really describe him as a bit 94 00:05:33,992 --> 00:05:37,592 Speaker 1: of a a fun character. He liked to drink, he 95 00:05:37,752 --> 00:05:40,152 Speaker 1: liked the ladies, and he seemed to be quite you know, 96 00:05:40,432 --> 00:05:43,312 Speaker 1: especially amongst his friends, like well loved now. 97 00:05:43,352 --> 00:05:45,872 Speaker 2: He was a party boy for sure, and he certainly 98 00:05:45,912 --> 00:05:49,192 Speaker 2: showed that face to his friends. And he liked to drink. 99 00:05:49,272 --> 00:05:51,232 Speaker 2: He liked to go up with his friends on boats. 100 00:05:51,672 --> 00:05:54,512 Speaker 2: He had a wide circle of friends, love fishing, loved 101 00:05:54,512 --> 00:05:57,672 Speaker 2: to travel to Tasmania, go fishing in particular, and he 102 00:05:57,712 --> 00:06:00,272 Speaker 2: had two children. He had a strange wife, he had 103 00:06:00,312 --> 00:06:03,872 Speaker 2: a string of girlfriends. He definitely liked the ladies, and 104 00:06:03,912 --> 00:06:06,032 Speaker 2: that was certainly looked at as one of the possible 105 00:06:06,032 --> 00:06:07,912 Speaker 2: motive in his murder. But it certainly wasn't a crime 106 00:06:07,952 --> 00:06:11,712 Speaker 2: of passion. But there was this slightly dark underbelly. The 107 00:06:11,712 --> 00:06:14,352 Speaker 2: people that he was dealing with in the motor trade 108 00:06:15,312 --> 00:06:17,312 Speaker 2: had some criminal connections. 109 00:06:17,712 --> 00:06:19,352 Speaker 1: We'll touch on that and say, but let's talk about 110 00:06:19,352 --> 00:06:23,832 Speaker 1: the day that the bomb exploded, because I've outlined that 111 00:06:24,072 --> 00:06:26,791 Speaker 1: John was a particular creature of habit and did the 112 00:06:26,792 --> 00:06:29,832 Speaker 1: same thing every day. So investigators found that that was 113 00:06:29,872 --> 00:06:31,992 Speaker 1: actually a pretty easy way for someone who wanted to 114 00:06:31,992 --> 00:06:34,472 Speaker 1: commit a crime like this to commit this crime, right, 115 00:06:35,592 --> 00:06:35,952 Speaker 1: And it. 116 00:06:35,832 --> 00:06:39,192 Speaker 2: Really shows that he wasn't expecting this to happen because 117 00:06:39,232 --> 00:06:42,152 Speaker 2: he was following his normal routine. The third of August 118 00:06:42,232 --> 00:06:45,192 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, early in the morning, he drives out 119 00:06:45,192 --> 00:06:48,791 Speaker 2: of his driveway on Sydney Road, Coburg and follows his 120 00:06:48,872 --> 00:06:51,232 Speaker 2: normal route on the way to his auto wrecking business. 121 00:06:51,712 --> 00:06:55,791 Speaker 2: He gets around the corner and a bomb explodes. So 122 00:06:55,872 --> 00:06:57,392 Speaker 2: he was about to get out of his vehicle to 123 00:06:57,392 --> 00:06:59,832 Speaker 2: get his normal coffee in his newspaper and he gets 124 00:06:59,872 --> 00:07:04,712 Speaker 2: blown to smithereens instead. In fact, the initial thought was 125 00:07:04,752 --> 00:07:07,792 Speaker 2: that this was an LPG tank that must have exploded 126 00:07:07,872 --> 00:07:11,112 Speaker 2: in his vehicle, but his vehicle didn't run on gas 127 00:07:11,112 --> 00:07:13,672 Speaker 2: the super Liberty he was driving, so it took a 128 00:07:13,712 --> 00:07:15,792 Speaker 2: little while from that to realize this was a very 129 00:07:15,912 --> 00:07:19,512 Speaker 2: powerful bomb that had been placed under the passenger seat 130 00:07:19,512 --> 00:07:20,152 Speaker 2: of his vehicle. 131 00:07:21,312 --> 00:07:25,792 Speaker 1: What I thought was really quite compelling in the episode 132 00:07:25,992 --> 00:07:30,192 Speaker 1: that you made about this crime. You actually go and 133 00:07:30,232 --> 00:07:32,992 Speaker 1: see the wreckage of the vehicle, which is still part 134 00:07:32,992 --> 00:07:35,432 Speaker 1: of police evidence because this is an unsolved crime, so 135 00:07:35,472 --> 00:07:38,232 Speaker 1: it hasn't been disposed of. What was it like to 136 00:07:38,272 --> 00:07:40,672 Speaker 1: stand in the room with that car and see the 137 00:07:40,792 --> 00:07:42,992 Speaker 1: damage that was done that day? 138 00:07:44,312 --> 00:07:47,272 Speaker 2: You're right, it was a visceral feeling of being back 139 00:07:47,312 --> 00:07:51,432 Speaker 2: on the scene again, and you could still smell the 140 00:07:51,512 --> 00:07:55,352 Speaker 2: explosives within the vehicle, even though it was so long 141 00:07:55,392 --> 00:07:58,352 Speaker 2: after that, and the twisted wreckage you could barely see 142 00:07:58,392 --> 00:08:02,752 Speaker 2: what model or make the car was, and you realize 143 00:08:02,752 --> 00:08:06,392 Speaker 2: he had absolutely no chance of surviving that, and that 144 00:08:06,472 --> 00:08:08,632 Speaker 2: was the aim of the bomber. I think that was 145 00:08:08,712 --> 00:08:11,512 Speaker 2: part of our drive to try to look in this 146 00:08:11,592 --> 00:08:16,392 Speaker 2: case again, is to once we saw that vehicle, you think, boy, 147 00:08:16,512 --> 00:08:19,272 Speaker 2: people are going to know what happened. And people would 148 00:08:19,272 --> 00:08:22,592 Speaker 2: have been shocked by the ferocity of this, and these 149 00:08:22,632 --> 00:08:26,832 Speaker 2: sorts of killings tend to be about sending a message, 150 00:08:27,432 --> 00:08:30,672 Speaker 2: and putting a bomb in a car like this showed 151 00:08:32,432 --> 00:08:34,352 Speaker 2: to other people who might have been in that circle 152 00:08:34,391 --> 00:08:37,031 Speaker 2: that the people who did it were very, very serious characters, 153 00:08:37,552 --> 00:08:40,832 Speaker 2: and they also didn't mind the possibility of collateral damage. 154 00:08:41,072 --> 00:08:43,032 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, because, as you mentioned, the bomb 155 00:08:43,072 --> 00:08:46,152 Speaker 1: went off on a pretty busy Melbourne street and yet 156 00:08:46,472 --> 00:08:49,952 Speaker 1: nobody else lost their lives that day, only John Ferlin. 157 00:08:50,472 --> 00:08:52,632 Speaker 1: Do you think that was pure luck or do you 158 00:08:52,672 --> 00:08:54,952 Speaker 1: think that was somewhat by design? 159 00:08:56,072 --> 00:08:59,472 Speaker 2: It was pure luck. I mean, we understand that the 160 00:08:59,512 --> 00:09:02,392 Speaker 2: bomb was detonated by in line of sight with a 161 00:09:02,392 --> 00:09:05,592 Speaker 2: mobile phone from a distance of probably fifty to one 162 00:09:05,632 --> 00:09:09,792 Speaker 2: hundred meters, but they had only one chance to do it. 163 00:09:10,032 --> 00:09:14,192 Speaker 2: His car was moving along that street there in Merlinstone, 164 00:09:14,592 --> 00:09:19,272 Speaker 2: and there was a group of school children close by. 165 00:09:19,592 --> 00:09:22,872 Speaker 2: There was a bus, there are other vehicles. There was 166 00:09:22,952 --> 00:09:27,632 Speaker 2: a lady's starting work in the hairdressing shop directly adjacent, 167 00:09:28,192 --> 00:09:30,592 Speaker 2: and when you look at the spray of debris that 168 00:09:30,672 --> 00:09:34,312 Speaker 2: emanated from that bomb. There's just shrapnel everywhere, and you 169 00:09:34,312 --> 00:09:36,592 Speaker 2: can still see it to this day. You can see 170 00:09:37,032 --> 00:09:40,992 Speaker 2: dings and marks and walls. And it was just a 171 00:09:41,272 --> 00:09:46,352 Speaker 2: ferocious explosion. It was heard many many kilometers away. It 172 00:09:46,432 --> 00:09:50,272 Speaker 2: shook the ground, the car was pushed fifteen meters down 173 00:09:50,272 --> 00:09:52,912 Speaker 2: the road and the bonnet flew off, and it was 174 00:09:52,952 --> 00:09:56,832 Speaker 2: just absolute luck. I mean, it was absolute luck that 175 00:09:56,832 --> 00:09:58,352 Speaker 2: no one else was killed or even injured. 176 00:09:59,352 --> 00:10:02,952 Speaker 1: You mentioned before that a chrome like this is sending 177 00:10:02,992 --> 00:10:06,631 Speaker 1: a message. So what message does it send when you 178 00:10:06,712 --> 00:10:11,032 Speaker 1: strap a bomb of that size to kill just one man? 179 00:10:12,632 --> 00:10:17,072 Speaker 2: Yeah, it says, don't come after us, We're very serious people. 180 00:10:17,912 --> 00:10:21,472 Speaker 2: This really sent a tone in Melbourne, not for car bombing, 181 00:10:21,792 --> 00:10:24,912 Speaker 2: but for a series of public executions that we call 182 00:10:24,952 --> 00:10:27,792 Speaker 2: the Gangland War that went all the way from ninety 183 00:10:27,792 --> 00:10:31,552 Speaker 2: eight shoot to about twenty ten when Carl Williams was murdered. 184 00:10:31,632 --> 00:10:33,632 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that Carl was involved in this. He 185 00:10:33,672 --> 00:10:35,432 Speaker 2: was involved a lot of other things, but not this one. 186 00:10:35,552 --> 00:10:38,152 Speaker 2: But it just sent a message to the underworld that 187 00:10:38,232 --> 00:10:40,511 Speaker 2: all bets were off, that people are going to go 188 00:10:40,552 --> 00:10:45,592 Speaker 2: after each other with ferocity. And a real thirst for revenge. 189 00:10:46,232 --> 00:10:49,352 Speaker 2: And as I say, the car bomb like that says, 190 00:10:49,352 --> 00:10:53,671 Speaker 2: don't mess with us. The consequences will be dire, and 191 00:10:53,752 --> 00:10:57,112 Speaker 2: I think it certainly sent a shockwave literally through that suburb. 192 00:10:57,312 --> 00:10:58,752 Speaker 2: But also the Melbourne underworld. 193 00:10:59,032 --> 00:11:01,072 Speaker 1: Well let's get into that, because at this point, when 194 00:11:01,152 --> 00:11:05,672 Speaker 1: John Ferland dies, only is I think it's end. Gangitano 195 00:11:05,792 --> 00:11:09,712 Speaker 1: is the only one who's actually been killed execution style, 196 00:11:10,232 --> 00:11:12,392 Speaker 1: sort of publicly, to a point where we think, okay, 197 00:11:12,552 --> 00:11:15,632 Speaker 1: the Melbourne Underworld is starting, something is starting and brewing. 198 00:11:15,672 --> 00:11:18,632 Speaker 1: And then we, you know, fifteen years, we travel across 199 00:11:18,632 --> 00:11:23,232 Speaker 1: and see maybe forty people die in similar circumstances, in 200 00:11:23,312 --> 00:11:27,272 Speaker 1: quite public ways, some of them. And so why do 201 00:11:27,392 --> 00:11:31,352 Speaker 1: we start to tie John Felon, who has no criminal past, 202 00:11:31,552 --> 00:11:34,672 Speaker 1: who's running a seemingly legitimate business, who seems to be 203 00:11:34,752 --> 00:11:37,151 Speaker 1: like a fun party guy, maybe a little bit rough 204 00:11:37,152 --> 00:11:39,952 Speaker 1: around the edges in you know, conducting his business. Why 205 00:11:39,992 --> 00:11:42,752 Speaker 1: do we start linking him to this Melbourne underworld. 206 00:11:43,232 --> 00:11:45,472 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's more because it's an unsolved but 207 00:11:45,552 --> 00:11:48,912 Speaker 2: that that's really the first reason. But it also sets 208 00:11:48,912 --> 00:11:52,632 Speaker 2: this tone for public killings in Melbourne. We've kind of 209 00:11:52,632 --> 00:11:54,632 Speaker 2: always had a bit of a punch on for that 210 00:11:54,672 --> 00:11:58,271 Speaker 2: in Melbourne actually, But this was a concentrated period of 211 00:11:58,832 --> 00:12:02,992 Speaker 2: public executions and bullshit and bad manners get you killed 212 00:12:03,032 --> 00:12:07,031 Speaker 2: in Melbourne, and that was certainly a thing right through 213 00:12:07,072 --> 00:12:10,232 Speaker 2: this period. You didn't have to do that much to 214 00:12:10,272 --> 00:12:15,872 Speaker 2: get killed across someone in business, disrespect somebody, threaten somebody else, 215 00:12:16,752 --> 00:12:19,312 Speaker 2: lag on them, this type of thing. So this bullshit 216 00:12:19,352 --> 00:12:22,872 Speaker 2: and bad manners was often a motive enough. And this 217 00:12:23,032 --> 00:12:25,952 Speaker 2: was the baffling thing for police. Where was the motive here? 218 00:12:26,352 --> 00:12:29,832 Speaker 2: Where was the motive for killing Gangitano? Where was the 219 00:12:29,832 --> 00:12:33,312 Speaker 2: motive for killing another twenty five thirty people? In this period? 220 00:12:33,632 --> 00:12:37,312 Speaker 2: There was just a bloodlust that was quite astounding, and 221 00:12:37,352 --> 00:12:39,272 Speaker 2: I don't think any other period of killing in Australia. 222 00:12:39,272 --> 00:12:40,592 Speaker 2: We're seeing a lot of killing at the moment in 223 00:12:40,632 --> 00:12:43,072 Speaker 2: Sydney and Melbourne for different reasons, but nothing seems to 224 00:12:43,472 --> 00:12:48,912 Speaker 2: reach this level of paranoia and fear and revenge this cycle, 225 00:12:49,432 --> 00:12:54,192 Speaker 2: which was incredibly intimidating. But I was covering all this 226 00:12:54,272 --> 00:12:57,192 Speaker 2: through this period and you just didn't really know who 227 00:12:57,272 --> 00:13:00,472 Speaker 2: was next or why, and it took a lot of 228 00:13:00,672 --> 00:13:05,192 Speaker 2: burrowing into the whole thing to actually understand that all 229 00:13:05,232 --> 00:13:09,511 Speaker 2: bets were off that if you cross these people, they 230 00:13:09,552 --> 00:13:12,952 Speaker 2: were going to exercise their power and they were going to, 231 00:13:13,352 --> 00:13:17,832 Speaker 2: you know, when in doubt, kill them. And when that 232 00:13:17,912 --> 00:13:20,312 Speaker 2: was kind of kind of the idea because because if 233 00:13:20,312 --> 00:13:23,152 Speaker 2: you didn't, they might come back at you to affect 234 00:13:23,192 --> 00:13:26,792 Speaker 2: your underworld business, threaten your family, this type of thing. 235 00:13:27,112 --> 00:13:30,992 Speaker 2: So the Furln bombing, even though most of the underworld 236 00:13:30,992 --> 00:13:33,272 Speaker 2: people I've spoken to who are actually involved in it said, oh, 237 00:13:33,312 --> 00:13:35,472 Speaker 2: there's nothing, it's not connected with us, but it just 238 00:13:35,512 --> 00:13:36,712 Speaker 2: set a tone. I think. 239 00:13:38,592 --> 00:13:41,432 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy. 240 00:13:41,592 --> 00:13:44,272 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Adam Shand about the car bombing of 241 00:13:44,352 --> 00:13:47,912 Speaker 1: Johnny John Ferlin. Up next, Adam tells us what John 242 00:13:47,992 --> 00:13:53,512 Speaker 1: Ferlin's past had to do with his suspicious death. We 243 00:13:53,672 --> 00:13:56,312 Speaker 1: do find out that John Ferlin does have some kind 244 00:13:56,312 --> 00:14:00,631 Speaker 1: of loose ties to the Melbourne underworld through his business dealings. 245 00:14:01,232 --> 00:14:04,152 Speaker 1: Can you talk us through the business that he's leased 246 00:14:04,712 --> 00:14:08,632 Speaker 1: to a guy who sells CA and what his family 247 00:14:08,832 --> 00:14:13,232 Speaker 1: legacy ties into potentially maybe bringing John Felan a little 248 00:14:13,232 --> 00:14:15,511 Speaker 1: bit into the darker side of Melbourne's crime world. 249 00:14:16,232 --> 00:14:18,872 Speaker 2: Well, indeed, I mean he lived on Sydney Road, Coburg, 250 00:14:18,912 --> 00:14:20,912 Speaker 2: and right next door he owned a block of land 251 00:14:20,952 --> 00:14:24,312 Speaker 2: which was a car yard and he leased that car 252 00:14:24,392 --> 00:14:28,712 Speaker 2: yard to a fellow called Domenico Italiano, whose grandfather of 253 00:14:28,752 --> 00:14:34,272 Speaker 2: the same name, Domenico Italiano, was probably Melbourne's first godfather 254 00:14:34,352 --> 00:14:38,792 Speaker 2: Calabrian Mafia. His uncle, Michelle Screever, was an Underworld hit man. 255 00:14:39,232 --> 00:14:42,192 Speaker 2: Other people in his family were steeped in the underworld 256 00:14:42,192 --> 00:14:46,112 Speaker 2: as well, but Mick Italiano, as he was called Dominico, 257 00:14:46,952 --> 00:14:48,832 Speaker 2: was not of that ilk. He had the big name, 258 00:14:49,392 --> 00:14:54,552 Speaker 2: he had the antecedents, he was not regarded in the 259 00:14:54,592 --> 00:14:58,712 Speaker 2: same way. He was more of a con man really, 260 00:14:58,752 --> 00:15:02,152 Speaker 2: if anything. And he found himself in the motor trade 261 00:15:02,712 --> 00:15:06,752 Speaker 2: and he leased this car yard from John Ferlan and 262 00:15:06,792 --> 00:15:08,752 Speaker 2: he also leased a car just around the corner from 263 00:15:08,792 --> 00:15:11,192 Speaker 2: my house, I discovered later. And that's the thing is 264 00:15:11,232 --> 00:15:13,272 Speaker 2: in Melbourne, if if someone wants to get you, they'll 265 00:15:13,312 --> 00:15:15,592 Speaker 2: find you. And that's the same anyway you can do 266 00:15:15,632 --> 00:15:17,872 Speaker 2: all the aliases and hide your address and so and 267 00:15:17,872 --> 00:15:20,952 Speaker 2: so for that was to find you. So Mick is 268 00:15:20,992 --> 00:15:24,552 Speaker 2: not doing that well on the rent. He's behind and 269 00:15:24,912 --> 00:15:26,992 Speaker 2: this is starting to bother John John loved a dollar. 270 00:15:27,232 --> 00:15:29,072 Speaker 2: He was, and he was always looking for a dollar. 271 00:15:29,112 --> 00:15:33,192 Speaker 2: He never had enough, so tension began to rise between 272 00:15:33,592 --> 00:15:39,032 Speaker 2: Italiano and Furlan to the point where Italiano offered him 273 00:15:39,232 --> 00:15:44,472 Speaker 2: an opportunity. Mick was running these dodgy raffles under the 274 00:15:44,552 --> 00:15:48,872 Speaker 2: Youth Motorsport banner, where he purported to be raising money 275 00:15:48,872 --> 00:15:53,032 Speaker 2: for charity while raffling off these cars. In reality it 276 00:15:53,072 --> 00:15:55,312 Speaker 2: was a fraud and it was just a way of 277 00:15:55,432 --> 00:15:59,152 Speaker 2: moving cars to people while avoiding sales tax and doing 278 00:15:59,232 --> 00:16:03,152 Speaker 2: it on the dodge, and his friends or business associates 279 00:16:03,752 --> 00:16:06,912 Speaker 2: would magically win the raffle and at the car for 280 00:16:07,312 --> 00:16:10,512 Speaker 2: a much reduced price. So he was doing that quite 281 00:16:10,512 --> 00:16:14,912 Speaker 2: successful for quite a while. And I through my investigation 282 00:16:15,472 --> 00:16:19,752 Speaker 2: I discovered through a friend of John's that John had 283 00:16:19,752 --> 00:16:24,272 Speaker 2: been offered this as well, in lieu of the tens 284 00:16:24,272 --> 00:16:28,432 Speaker 2: of thousands of dollars that he was owed. Whether he 285 00:16:28,752 --> 00:16:30,912 Speaker 2: wanted to do I'm not really sure. But at the 286 00:16:30,912 --> 00:16:34,592 Speaker 2: same time, John Ferland was putting in reports to Fair 287 00:16:34,632 --> 00:16:38,752 Speaker 2: Trading about Mika Taliano, because. 288 00:16:38,592 --> 00:16:41,552 Speaker 1: John himself had actually been in a spotlight from fair 289 00:16:41,552 --> 00:16:44,112 Speaker 1: Trading himself, hadn't he Oh yeah. 290 00:16:43,952 --> 00:16:46,352 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I think this is deregue for people 291 00:16:46,392 --> 00:16:49,792 Speaker 2: at that end of the of the motor trade. You know, 292 00:16:49,952 --> 00:16:55,272 Speaker 2: we're winding back odometers and we're changing compliance plates and 293 00:16:55,312 --> 00:16:59,152 Speaker 2: where we're bringing in vehicles that shouldn't be in Australia, 294 00:16:59,592 --> 00:17:02,912 Speaker 2: and we're doing all kinds of things like that. So, yeah, 295 00:17:02,912 --> 00:17:06,712 Speaker 2: he'd had his moments where where he'd caught the eye 296 00:17:06,792 --> 00:17:12,591 Speaker 2: of the fair Trading Bureau. But I think, as I say, 297 00:17:13,071 --> 00:17:16,151 Speaker 2: that's probably the best motive we have to include a 298 00:17:16,192 --> 00:17:20,472 Speaker 2: Taliano in the list of suspects. And police did look 299 00:17:21,071 --> 00:17:25,552 Speaker 2: thoroughly at all this, and I know the homicide detective 300 00:17:25,591 --> 00:17:28,232 Speaker 2: is an excellent detective. Jeff Mark concluded, it just doesn't 301 00:17:28,272 --> 00:17:33,032 Speaker 2: didn't seem enough. Even though the revelation of these raffles 302 00:17:33,111 --> 00:17:36,872 Speaker 2: led the police to charge it Taliano for running these raffles, 303 00:17:36,911 --> 00:17:40,031 Speaker 2: and he was actually jailed over them, along with some 304 00:17:40,071 --> 00:17:43,111 Speaker 2: other things as well, all low level stuff, but it 305 00:17:43,192 --> 00:17:46,232 Speaker 2: never really seemed to reach the level of a motive. 306 00:17:46,712 --> 00:17:51,311 Speaker 2: And particularly with the inability to link the bomb to 307 00:17:51,351 --> 00:17:54,752 Speaker 2: a bomb maker, to a killer, and then to find 308 00:17:54,792 --> 00:17:58,951 Speaker 2: a connection between that killer and Italiano, these were the 309 00:17:58,992 --> 00:18:03,352 Speaker 2: issues that police faced and unlike most of the other 310 00:18:03,472 --> 00:18:07,111 Speaker 2: murders in this period, there weren't informers step up, at 311 00:18:07,192 --> 00:18:10,311 Speaker 2: least in the beginning to help them. 312 00:18:10,391 --> 00:18:14,552 Speaker 1: So a young man walks into the Saint Kilda police 313 00:18:14,552 --> 00:18:19,512 Speaker 1: station some years after the bombing occurred and says it 314 00:18:19,552 --> 00:18:24,391 Speaker 1: was me, like completely stuns the investigators and says I 315 00:18:24,752 --> 00:18:27,912 Speaker 1: made the bomb, I planted the bomb. I was part 316 00:18:27,911 --> 00:18:31,191 Speaker 1: of detonating it. Who is this man? Do we believe 317 00:18:31,232 --> 00:18:33,471 Speaker 1: that he actually did it or was he confessing for 318 00:18:33,512 --> 00:18:34,591 Speaker 1: other reasons? 319 00:18:35,192 --> 00:18:38,152 Speaker 2: That's a really, really good question. It was six years 320 00:18:38,831 --> 00:18:41,431 Speaker 2: after the death of Ferland. Young Philip Matthews, who's then 321 00:18:41,472 --> 00:18:44,471 Speaker 2: in his early twenties, turns up at Sint Kildeerode police 322 00:18:44,631 --> 00:18:48,231 Speaker 2: headquarters and asked to see detectives. He wasn't on the 323 00:18:48,311 --> 00:18:53,552 Speaker 2: radar and says, I killed John Ferland. He couldn't tell 324 00:18:53,591 --> 00:18:57,872 Speaker 2: them who would ordered the murder, only that he'd been 325 00:18:57,911 --> 00:19:01,232 Speaker 2: in jail for a previous bombing as well, which. 326 00:19:01,071 --> 00:19:01,951 Speaker 1: He also confessed to. 327 00:19:02,111 --> 00:19:05,671 Speaker 2: Right, this guy likes to confess. He loves to confess. 328 00:19:05,831 --> 00:19:10,432 Speaker 2: That's always a red flag for investigators that as much 329 00:19:10,431 --> 00:19:12,552 Speaker 2: as this is a walk up start and you love 330 00:19:12,552 --> 00:19:14,631 Speaker 2: it and you think you want to believe it, we 331 00:19:14,671 --> 00:19:17,071 Speaker 2: have a history of informans here in Melbourne who gives 332 00:19:17,111 --> 00:19:18,951 Speaker 2: stories that police like and they lead them down the 333 00:19:18,952 --> 00:19:23,591 Speaker 2: garden path. That's another podcast though, And Philip Matthews seems 334 00:19:23,631 --> 00:19:27,351 Speaker 2: to know a lot about the bombing, but most critically, 335 00:19:27,911 --> 00:19:32,071 Speaker 2: he had a physical appearance that matched a witness description 336 00:19:32,792 --> 00:19:35,632 Speaker 2: of a young man driving a red miss and patrol 337 00:19:36,871 --> 00:19:40,792 Speaker 2: seeing at the time of the bombing and also days before. 338 00:19:41,391 --> 00:19:43,992 Speaker 2: And he had a distinctive tattoo on his right arm 339 00:19:44,472 --> 00:19:49,071 Speaker 2: of an eagle. It matched. He had that tattoo from there, 340 00:19:49,111 --> 00:19:52,071 Speaker 2: though there were other issues that didn't match, and it 341 00:19:53,032 --> 00:19:56,952 Speaker 2: led police to doubt his story. He also talked about 342 00:19:57,631 --> 00:20:02,511 Speaker 2: storing other while making supplies, detonated and so forth in 343 00:20:02,512 --> 00:20:07,592 Speaker 2: a country location where he'd also detonated bombs in trial runs. 344 00:20:08,071 --> 00:20:11,311 Speaker 2: He also talked about having been approached by these guys 345 00:20:11,311 --> 00:20:15,752 Speaker 2: in jail who we established did have connections to Italiano 346 00:20:18,111 --> 00:20:22,151 Speaker 2: about other bombings. And he actually set a device in 347 00:20:22,232 --> 00:20:26,591 Speaker 2: Flemington in Melbourne's north to send a message to somebody 348 00:20:26,631 --> 00:20:30,152 Speaker 2: else where. Someone when they opened up their roller door 349 00:20:30,192 --> 00:20:35,831 Speaker 2: it detonated an explosive there confesses that and goes to 350 00:20:35,911 --> 00:20:40,591 Speaker 2: jail for it. So police were faced with a choice 351 00:20:40,631 --> 00:20:43,512 Speaker 2: between here is someone who's got a rush of conscience 352 00:20:43,552 --> 00:20:45,591 Speaker 2: and honesty or who's a want to be and an 353 00:20:45,631 --> 00:20:46,552 Speaker 2: attention seeker. 354 00:20:47,512 --> 00:20:49,831 Speaker 1: So that's the question then, is like is he confessing 355 00:20:50,032 --> 00:20:53,351 Speaker 1: for clout, does it get him up the criminal ladder 356 00:20:53,391 --> 00:20:56,511 Speaker 1: a little further or is he legitimate in all of this? 357 00:20:58,151 --> 00:21:02,752 Speaker 2: Very hard to say because unfortunately, spoiler here, a few 358 00:21:02,752 --> 00:21:06,151 Speaker 2: weeks later he takes his own life. There's no suggestion 359 00:21:06,992 --> 00:21:09,191 Speaker 2: of suspicious circumstances that he was murdered. 360 00:21:09,351 --> 00:21:12,512 Speaker 1: Surely that would be questioned though in this particular case. 361 00:21:12,792 --> 00:21:15,871 Speaker 2: Well it was, and the investigator who reviewed this later 362 00:21:15,911 --> 00:21:19,232 Speaker 2: on looked at all the statements, looked at all the circumstances, 363 00:21:19,512 --> 00:21:23,472 Speaker 2: and also his demeanor in the interview that he did 364 00:21:23,512 --> 00:21:27,431 Speaker 2: do He was a troubled young man and he was 365 00:21:27,472 --> 00:21:32,472 Speaker 2: coming forward out of conscience. He wasn't he didn't want, 366 00:21:32,552 --> 00:21:36,191 Speaker 2: he didn't want to put the finger of suspicion on Italiana. 367 00:21:36,232 --> 00:21:40,511 Speaker 2: He didn't know who had ultimately ordered the bombing. So 368 00:21:40,671 --> 00:21:45,272 Speaker 2: this was purely out of his conscience that he was speaking. 369 00:21:46,272 --> 00:21:50,752 Speaker 2: And who knows, maybe the killing of Ferland did weigh 370 00:21:50,831 --> 00:21:56,032 Speaker 2: so heavily on him that he decided to do this. 371 00:21:56,992 --> 00:22:00,151 Speaker 2: Mind you, we'd also put his brother in for a 372 00:22:00,232 --> 00:22:04,311 Speaker 2: murder his twin brother, no less. So he liked to 373 00:22:04,351 --> 00:22:07,951 Speaker 2: confess and sometimes it was true, maybe sometimes it wasn't. 374 00:22:08,831 --> 00:22:13,431 Speaker 2: And I know police are desperate to speak to Philip 375 00:22:13,431 --> 00:22:15,712 Speaker 2: Matthew's girlfriend at the time that he was living with 376 00:22:16,631 --> 00:22:19,311 Speaker 2: and because she may be able to shed further light 377 00:22:20,151 --> 00:22:22,871 Speaker 2: on his activities at the time. We actually door knocked 378 00:22:22,871 --> 00:22:27,032 Speaker 2: the whole street in our Hunter's episode and spoke to 379 00:22:27,071 --> 00:22:28,431 Speaker 2: people who had been there for a long time, and 380 00:22:28,472 --> 00:22:31,752 Speaker 2: they said, yes, some strange goings on next door. There 381 00:22:31,752 --> 00:22:33,952 Speaker 2: was one witness in particular who said, yes, we saw 382 00:22:34,032 --> 00:22:37,191 Speaker 2: people coming and going, There was cars being worked on, 383 00:22:37,272 --> 00:22:40,351 Speaker 2: there was materials going back and forth. Something was going 384 00:22:40,351 --> 00:22:43,311 Speaker 2: on there, and he had too much information to not 385 00:22:43,911 --> 00:22:47,591 Speaker 2: have some role in all this. Just how far he 386 00:22:47,792 --> 00:22:51,871 Speaker 2: was involved, I'm not sure, but I think the witness 387 00:22:51,871 --> 00:22:55,232 Speaker 2: statement puts him on the scene. I think that's reliable. 388 00:22:55,351 --> 00:22:58,351 Speaker 2: He may have been the one who actually physically detonated 389 00:22:58,431 --> 00:23:01,151 Speaker 2: the bomb, but he didn't do it on his own. 390 00:23:01,792 --> 00:23:04,831 Speaker 2: And this is the focus of the current police investigator 391 00:23:04,871 --> 00:23:07,951 Speaker 2: or the reinvestigation. Actually where they've announced a one million 392 00:23:07,992 --> 00:23:11,752 Speaker 2: dollar reward is because really these things are done on 393 00:23:11,752 --> 00:23:15,951 Speaker 2: one's own In fact, there are striking similarities with the 394 00:23:15,992 --> 00:23:19,232 Speaker 2: bomb that killed Furlan to the bomb that killed Don 395 00:23:19,311 --> 00:23:23,351 Speaker 2: Hancock and Louis Lewis in Perth in two thousand and 396 00:23:23,391 --> 00:23:27,311 Speaker 2: one September, the same similar sort of device placed in 397 00:23:27,311 --> 00:23:30,552 Speaker 2: the same way. And if you remember that story, that 398 00:23:30,752 --> 00:23:35,032 Speaker 2: was allegedly in retaliation for the killing of a gypsy 399 00:23:35,111 --> 00:23:39,392 Speaker 2: joker biker in Ourbanda in two thousand in Western Australia, 400 00:23:39,992 --> 00:23:42,991 Speaker 2: and there had been efforts to kill Don Hancock with 401 00:23:43,792 --> 00:23:48,192 Speaker 2: fairly crude bombs, molotov cocktails, things like that, but this 402 00:23:48,272 --> 00:23:52,031 Speaker 2: one was a step up. So I know police have 403 00:23:52,272 --> 00:23:57,591 Speaker 2: the identity of potential people who could have been the bomber, 404 00:23:58,552 --> 00:24:02,431 Speaker 2: and those sort of individuals are pretty dangerous characters if 405 00:24:02,431 --> 00:24:05,951 Speaker 2: they're able to source and construct and be part of 406 00:24:05,952 --> 00:24:11,792 Speaker 2: criminal conspiracies, because the risk to public safety is unbelievable. 407 00:24:12,071 --> 00:24:16,711 Speaker 2: So I think that's the focus of the current police investigation. 408 00:24:16,911 --> 00:24:20,552 Speaker 2: Hence the desire to speak to Matthew's girlfriend to see 409 00:24:20,552 --> 00:24:25,672 Speaker 2: if they can I guess, recreate the circle of associates 410 00:24:25,752 --> 00:24:26,831 Speaker 2: he was dealing with back then. 411 00:24:36,552 --> 00:24:41,511 Speaker 1: What about the DNA evidence, Adam, Because they are investigators 412 00:24:41,552 --> 00:24:44,472 Speaker 1: are going off the idea that John Felon was away 413 00:24:44,472 --> 00:24:47,831 Speaker 1: on a fishing trip in Tasmania the day before on 414 00:24:47,952 --> 00:24:51,311 Speaker 1: the days before he was killed, and his car was 415 00:24:51,351 --> 00:24:54,952 Speaker 1: parked behind a fence at his home, a pretty easy 416 00:24:54,992 --> 00:24:56,871 Speaker 1: way for someone to get in and out without being 417 00:24:56,911 --> 00:25:00,512 Speaker 1: seen jump the fence, and there were cigarette butts around 418 00:25:00,552 --> 00:25:02,831 Speaker 1: where he would park his car. A lot of the 419 00:25:02,911 --> 00:25:05,392 Speaker 1: DNA obviously belonging to John himself, but there was some 420 00:25:06,032 --> 00:25:08,792 Speaker 1: that didn't. Do we know whether that ever shared any 421 00:25:08,911 --> 00:25:10,871 Speaker 1: light on who potentially could have been in his yard 422 00:25:10,911 --> 00:25:11,472 Speaker 1: at that time. 423 00:25:12,311 --> 00:25:14,911 Speaker 2: Well, they have looked at all that DNA in the 424 00:25:14,952 --> 00:25:17,192 Speaker 2: months since our show, as I understand it, and they 425 00:25:17,192 --> 00:25:21,831 Speaker 2: can't find any match to criminals because in Victoria we're 426 00:25:21,871 --> 00:25:27,151 Speaker 2: not using the latest forensic genetic investigation techniques. So if 427 00:25:27,151 --> 00:25:29,792 Speaker 2: you haven't got a criminal record, then you can't match 428 00:25:30,552 --> 00:25:34,432 Speaker 2: that DNA. It could well be that it's friends of John's. 429 00:25:35,151 --> 00:25:38,431 Speaker 2: I mean, he had a lot of visitors. It was 430 00:25:38,431 --> 00:25:40,792 Speaker 2: easy to get into that yard. It's actually exactly the 431 00:25:40,871 --> 00:25:45,191 Speaker 2: same way today as it was back then, and it 432 00:25:45,232 --> 00:25:48,151 Speaker 2: would have been fairly simple for someone to climb the fence, 433 00:25:48,151 --> 00:25:51,912 Speaker 2: as you say, But yeah, that DNA could still yield 434 00:25:52,391 --> 00:25:55,391 Speaker 2: potential suspects and we have to use the latest techniques, 435 00:25:55,712 --> 00:26:00,032 Speaker 2: and I'm sure the investigators are lobbying their bosses to 436 00:26:00,992 --> 00:26:02,911 Speaker 2: use the same sort of techniques that have been used 437 00:26:02,911 --> 00:26:05,951 Speaker 2: in Western Australia and New South Wales to unlock the 438 00:26:05,952 --> 00:26:09,391 Speaker 2: idea of people who aren't on criminal DNA databases and 439 00:26:09,992 --> 00:26:11,352 Speaker 2: could hold the answer to this whole thing. 440 00:26:11,911 --> 00:26:14,991 Speaker 1: What then happens with Italiano because as you mentioned, he 441 00:26:14,992 --> 00:26:18,471 Speaker 1: did go to jail for his dodgy raffle dealings and 442 00:26:18,712 --> 00:26:21,111 Speaker 1: there is potentially links between him and the bomb maker 443 00:26:21,151 --> 00:26:24,391 Speaker 1: in prison that have not been ever confirmed. But then 444 00:26:24,992 --> 00:26:27,191 Speaker 1: what happens to him? Is he still under a cloud 445 00:26:27,232 --> 00:26:29,672 Speaker 1: at this stage and what does his life then look 446 00:26:29,712 --> 00:26:31,712 Speaker 1: like from that point on, Well, he ends. 447 00:26:31,671 --> 00:26:36,391 Speaker 2: Up underground actually before his time. He goes to jail, 448 00:26:36,472 --> 00:26:40,712 Speaker 2: he actually appeals some of his convictions and he gets 449 00:26:40,752 --> 00:26:45,511 Speaker 2: released on bail. To celebrate, he gets some drugs and 450 00:26:45,552 --> 00:26:51,231 Speaker 2: some viagra. He meets the girlfriend of a prison cell mate. 451 00:26:52,351 --> 00:26:56,071 Speaker 2: Don't that you love? A loyalty who's also a lady 452 00:26:56,111 --> 00:26:58,831 Speaker 2: of the night, shall we say? And they have an 453 00:26:58,871 --> 00:27:01,871 Speaker 2: afternoon wild sex and fun and he dies on the 454 00:27:01,952 --> 00:27:07,431 Speaker 2: job as a heart attack. So another potential suspect or 455 00:27:07,512 --> 00:27:13,512 Speaker 2: source of information is departed, so which makes the case 456 00:27:13,552 --> 00:27:15,512 Speaker 2: for investigators all that more difficult. 457 00:27:16,351 --> 00:27:20,831 Speaker 1: Other than the alleged bomb maker's girlfriend, is there anyone 458 00:27:20,911 --> 00:27:24,591 Speaker 1: else still left alive you think has the information that 459 00:27:24,631 --> 00:27:26,711 Speaker 1: could lead to this case being solved? Because when we 460 00:27:26,752 --> 00:27:30,231 Speaker 1: talk about these gangland murders, this one really is the 461 00:27:30,272 --> 00:27:33,951 Speaker 1: only one still left open, right that there is an 462 00:27:34,032 --> 00:27:36,951 Speaker 1: understanding that the rest have been solved, just not this one. 463 00:27:37,472 --> 00:27:39,591 Speaker 1: Is someone still alive that still has the information that 464 00:27:39,631 --> 00:27:40,391 Speaker 1: we need to solve it? 465 00:27:41,032 --> 00:27:47,311 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, absolutely. Police know the identity of people that 466 00:27:47,351 --> 00:27:52,032 Speaker 2: could have supplied components electronics. I'm not going to say 467 00:27:52,071 --> 00:27:53,711 Speaker 2: I know the name because I'll be checking under my 468 00:27:53,792 --> 00:27:58,271 Speaker 2: car after that, but police certainly know those names and 469 00:27:58,311 --> 00:28:04,952 Speaker 2: the associates of Matthew's. They also have fortunately Matthew's twin brother. 470 00:28:06,311 --> 00:28:08,831 Speaker 2: If they wanted to match the DNA to what they 471 00:28:08,831 --> 00:28:11,311 Speaker 2: found in those cigarettes to see if it was linked 472 00:28:11,311 --> 00:28:15,871 Speaker 2: to Matthews. They have an avenue there that's been suggested 473 00:28:15,911 --> 00:28:18,071 Speaker 2: to them by the investigator who reviewed has now left 474 00:28:18,071 --> 00:28:20,112 Speaker 2: the force. I'm not sure if it's happened, but that's 475 00:28:20,111 --> 00:28:23,192 Speaker 2: certainly an avenue and I think also you've got other 476 00:28:23,232 --> 00:28:26,391 Speaker 2: people who were speaking to Matthews in jail and could 477 00:28:26,391 --> 00:28:32,272 Speaker 2: provide those links, the circumstantial links to bring it home 478 00:28:32,311 --> 00:28:35,752 Speaker 2: to Italiano. So I wouldn't put it out of the 479 00:28:35,792 --> 00:28:39,592 Speaker 2: realms of possibility that a wink and a nudge was 480 00:28:39,752 --> 00:28:43,272 Speaker 2: enough for Philip Matthews to motivate himself to do this. 481 00:28:43,992 --> 00:28:47,312 Speaker 2: But that can be established by the associates who are 482 00:28:47,312 --> 00:28:49,431 Speaker 2: still alive, and I know they are because I know 483 00:28:49,512 --> 00:28:53,352 Speaker 2: those names, and so yeah, I think it's still very 484 00:28:53,872 --> 00:28:58,872 Speaker 2: solvable as case, and I know police are extremely eager 485 00:28:58,952 --> 00:29:02,752 Speaker 2: to get new information on this because killing like this 486 00:29:04,592 --> 00:29:07,752 Speaker 2: is a big moment and the fact that you've got 487 00:29:07,752 --> 00:29:12,552 Speaker 2: people with the capacity to carry out these sort of killings, 488 00:29:12,592 --> 00:29:15,152 Speaker 2: every single one of them is important to get off 489 00:29:15,192 --> 00:29:17,592 Speaker 2: the streets because they could go back into business at 490 00:29:17,592 --> 00:29:20,352 Speaker 2: any time. And I think it just it shattered the 491 00:29:20,392 --> 00:29:23,072 Speaker 2: peace of that suburb and the other people still suffering the 492 00:29:23,072 --> 00:29:26,072 Speaker 2: effects the trauma of that. It's not just John's family 493 00:29:26,112 --> 00:29:27,991 Speaker 2: but those in the area. I mean, it was a 494 00:29:28,032 --> 00:29:29,191 Speaker 2: shattering moment. Literally. 495 00:29:30,671 --> 00:29:32,112 Speaker 1: You've got to touch on this a couple of times, 496 00:29:32,152 --> 00:29:34,312 Speaker 1: Adam about and you've been doing this for a long 497 00:29:34,431 --> 00:29:39,752 Speaker 1: time reporting on crime in Melbourne. Where As you mentioned 498 00:29:39,952 --> 00:29:42,952 Speaker 1: people were killed for very little. I imagine that having 499 00:29:42,952 --> 00:29:45,872 Speaker 1: their stories plastered in the newspaper or told by a 500 00:29:45,952 --> 00:29:48,992 Speaker 1: podcast or on TV shows like Hunters, some people would 501 00:29:49,072 --> 00:29:51,951 Speaker 1: not be overly happy with that. How have you fared 502 00:29:51,952 --> 00:29:54,112 Speaker 1: in amongst all of this sore you ever threatened or 503 00:29:54,152 --> 00:29:56,552 Speaker 1: ever felt unsafe, you know, dealing with the people that 504 00:29:56,592 --> 00:29:58,112 Speaker 1: you have to deal with to tell these stories. 505 00:29:59,272 --> 00:30:01,072 Speaker 2: That's a good question. I get asked this quite a lot. 506 00:30:01,911 --> 00:30:05,751 Speaker 2: The thing about when people threaten you is that the 507 00:30:05,792 --> 00:30:09,592 Speaker 2: serious people in life don't call you up, don't ring 508 00:30:09,632 --> 00:30:12,512 Speaker 2: you up, don't leave notes, let just come and do it. 509 00:30:13,072 --> 00:30:15,472 Speaker 2: So really, and I have had threats over the years, 510 00:30:15,632 --> 00:30:20,072 Speaker 2: and I tend to ide some advice from my old mentor, 511 00:30:20,152 --> 00:30:23,031 Speaker 2: Brian the Skull Murphy, one of the most notorious police 512 00:30:23,032 --> 00:30:25,392 Speaker 2: in Victoria. He said, he said just that, he said, 513 00:30:25,392 --> 00:30:27,231 Speaker 2: don't worry about the people that ring you up, you know, 514 00:30:27,752 --> 00:30:29,872 Speaker 2: and and when they when they do ring you up, 515 00:30:29,911 --> 00:30:31,872 Speaker 2: just give them a good burst. Give them a good burst, 516 00:30:31,952 --> 00:30:33,912 Speaker 2: because they're cowards, you know, and they want they want 517 00:30:33,952 --> 00:30:36,312 Speaker 2: you not to write this stuff. But but you know, ironically, 518 00:30:36,352 --> 00:30:38,072 Speaker 2: I think a lot of the gangsters in Melbourne they 519 00:30:38,232 --> 00:30:42,711 Speaker 2: liked being written about and they're elevated and glamorized pretty 520 00:30:42,872 --> 00:30:46,632 Speaker 2: some pretty tawdry characters involved in awful trades, doing terrible 521 00:30:46,632 --> 00:30:49,991 Speaker 2: things to each other. Suddenly you're celebrated in books and 522 00:30:50,112 --> 00:30:51,632 Speaker 2: movies and TV shows. 523 00:30:51,592 --> 00:30:53,951 Speaker 1: And Shopper made the back end of his life all 524 00:30:53,952 --> 00:30:56,152 Speaker 1: about that, right, he really did. 525 00:30:56,392 --> 00:30:59,512 Speaker 2: Chopper did, my goodness, And you know I was part 526 00:30:59,552 --> 00:31:01,392 Speaker 2: of that mythmaking as well. You know, I was part 527 00:31:01,392 --> 00:31:05,632 Speaker 2: of Chopper's greatest highst ever, you know, where he claimed 528 00:31:05,592 --> 00:31:08,471 Speaker 2: he'd killed four people and yeah, that's a story for 529 00:31:08,512 --> 00:31:10,392 Speaker 2: another day. But yeah, I think there's a lot of 530 00:31:10,632 --> 00:31:12,632 Speaker 2: a lot of mythmaking goes on. And people like to 531 00:31:12,872 --> 00:31:14,872 Speaker 2: be as much as they like to complain about the 532 00:31:14,911 --> 00:31:18,272 Speaker 2: media attention. It makes them relevant, It makes them, makes 533 00:31:18,312 --> 00:31:21,112 Speaker 2: them and to their enemies, seem to be something more 534 00:31:21,152 --> 00:31:22,832 Speaker 2: formidable than they might otherwise be. 535 00:31:24,592 --> 00:31:26,232 Speaker 1: So what are you working on now, Adam? I mean, 536 00:31:26,752 --> 00:31:28,512 Speaker 1: been a fan of your work for a long time. 537 00:31:28,712 --> 00:31:30,711 Speaker 1: I've followed a lot of the stories that you have 538 00:31:30,792 --> 00:31:33,272 Speaker 1: investigated over the years. Can you give us an insight 539 00:31:33,352 --> 00:31:35,392 Speaker 1: into what else might be coming our way. 540 00:31:36,112 --> 00:31:40,152 Speaker 2: I'm doing a series called Real Chrime Adam Shanner podcast series, 541 00:31:40,632 --> 00:31:42,872 Speaker 2: and it's about the cases that I've been looking at 542 00:31:42,952 --> 00:31:46,191 Speaker 2: for some time, including the Ryl Grimmer case from fairy 543 00:31:46,232 --> 00:31:49,312 Speaker 2: Meadow it's on the site this week actually, and those 544 00:31:49,312 --> 00:31:51,752 Speaker 2: sorts of stories. But what I'm really getting motivated by 545 00:31:52,392 --> 00:31:55,431 Speaker 2: is the number of Indigenous women who've been murdered in 546 00:31:55,431 --> 00:31:58,951 Speaker 2: this country for whom there's been no justice whatsoever. And 547 00:31:58,952 --> 00:32:01,832 Speaker 2: I'm looking to a case in South Australia where a 548 00:32:01,911 --> 00:32:07,032 Speaker 2: lady Daphne Enid Sansbury was murdered by her partner who 549 00:32:07,112 --> 00:32:10,912 Speaker 2: never faced justice, and spending time within the Sansbury clan, 550 00:32:10,952 --> 00:32:13,192 Speaker 2: which also includes Adam Goods by the way that he's 551 00:32:13,272 --> 00:32:16,711 Speaker 2: part of that whole family, and just to understand the 552 00:32:16,752 --> 00:32:21,032 Speaker 2: impact on them and how that relates to so many 553 00:32:21,072 --> 00:32:25,191 Speaker 2: cases of Indigenous women being murdered and there's no justice. 554 00:32:25,671 --> 00:32:29,232 Speaker 2: So I'm finding this I'm stepping outside of my comfort zone, 555 00:32:29,232 --> 00:32:32,152 Speaker 2: if you like, a little bit sort of you know, Carlton, 556 00:32:32,392 --> 00:32:35,432 Speaker 2: you know, Sunshine, all sort of things to actually understand that, 557 00:32:35,472 --> 00:32:37,952 Speaker 2: and I think it's yeah, it's been a real pleasure 558 00:32:38,232 --> 00:32:42,792 Speaker 2: and a great educational value and the quiet dignity that 559 00:32:43,911 --> 00:32:47,431 Speaker 2: these people have when they've stuffered such injustice. I'm not 560 00:32:47,431 --> 00:32:49,392 Speaker 2: really wanting to get involved in these in these new 561 00:32:49,431 --> 00:32:51,671 Speaker 2: gang lane wars. For some reason, they just don't seem 562 00:32:51,712 --> 00:32:53,431 Speaker 2: to reach the heights of that. 563 00:32:53,431 --> 00:32:55,032 Speaker 1: That doesn't excite you anymore. 564 00:32:55,911 --> 00:33:00,752 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure I'll never say never, but you know, 565 00:33:01,112 --> 00:33:03,072 Speaker 2: I'm leaving that to the news guys at the moment. 566 00:33:03,552 --> 00:33:05,752 Speaker 2: As you know, in podcasting it's a little more historical. 567 00:33:06,312 --> 00:33:08,512 Speaker 2: You're not so much on the on the bleeding edge 568 00:33:08,512 --> 00:33:11,191 Speaker 2: of stories. But no, I think, And the problem is, 569 00:33:11,632 --> 00:33:14,752 Speaker 2: I just get so many people sending me messages saying 570 00:33:14,792 --> 00:33:16,392 Speaker 2: I need your help, and I'm a sucker for that. 571 00:33:18,152 --> 00:33:21,471 Speaker 2: I love to be needed, so I really do, and 572 00:33:21,512 --> 00:33:24,472 Speaker 2: it gets I get excited. And I, for instance, had 573 00:33:24,472 --> 00:33:29,352 Speaker 2: a lady approached me recently whose father was a very 574 00:33:29,472 --> 00:33:35,911 Speaker 2: very notorious sex offender in Melbourne who had information about 575 00:33:35,952 --> 00:33:39,952 Speaker 2: some murders which he wanted to impart and no one 576 00:33:39,952 --> 00:33:42,712 Speaker 2: would listen to him because of who he was. And 577 00:33:43,112 --> 00:33:46,152 Speaker 2: of course you've got to think twice about platforming someone 578 00:33:46,232 --> 00:33:49,552 Speaker 2: like that. That's certainly, you know, but I think, stuff 579 00:33:49,552 --> 00:33:53,792 Speaker 2: it if he's got information. But also the human drama 580 00:33:53,952 --> 00:33:57,632 Speaker 2: of a daughter who reconnects with her father of this 581 00:33:57,712 --> 00:34:00,672 Speaker 2: heenous background and believes in him and tries to tell 582 00:34:00,712 --> 00:34:02,951 Speaker 2: the story. I can't resist that sort of yarn, and 583 00:34:03,032 --> 00:34:05,832 Speaker 2: I guess I'm prepared to cop whatever issues come my 584 00:34:05,911 --> 00:34:10,992 Speaker 2: particular if it assists investigators to resolve some pretty heinous crimes. 585 00:34:13,431 --> 00:34:15,552 Speaker 1: Thank you to Adam for helping us tell the story. 586 00:34:15,632 --> 00:34:17,911 Speaker 1: You can watch Hunters at the link in our show notes, 587 00:34:17,951 --> 00:34:20,392 Speaker 1: where we've also linked more of Adam's work. If you 588 00:34:20,392 --> 00:34:22,071 Speaker 1: want to see images from this story, you can head 589 00:34:22,072 --> 00:34:24,792 Speaker 1: to our Instagram page. It's at True Crime Conversations, and 590 00:34:24,832 --> 00:34:26,591 Speaker 1: while you're there, give us a follow and have a 591 00:34:26,592 --> 00:34:29,712 Speaker 1: look at our case explainers too. True Crime Conversations is 592 00:34:29,712 --> 00:34:33,192 Speaker 1: hosted by me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer is Charlie Blackman. 593 00:34:33,471 --> 00:34:36,712 Speaker 1: The group executive producer is Alaria Brophy, with audio design 594 00:34:36,832 --> 00:34:39,832 Speaker 1: by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be 595 00:34:39,911 --> 00:34:46,431 Speaker 1: back next week with another True Crime Conversation. We want 596 00:34:46,471 --> 00:34:49,071 Speaker 1: to hear from our true crime fans. Tell us what 597 00:34:49,152 --> 00:34:51,272 Speaker 1: kind of content you love, what you'd like to hear 598 00:34:51,312 --> 00:34:53,671 Speaker 1: more of, and a bit about your listening habits. You'll 599 00:34:53,672 --> 00:34:55,511 Speaker 1: final link to the show notes to take our quick 600 00:34:55,632 --> 00:34:58,071 Speaker 1: five minute survey, and you'll have the chance to win 601 00:34:58,072 --> 00:35:00,591 Speaker 1: a one thousand dollar gift card. Just for participating,