WEBVTT - Why Africa Brooke Left The Cult Of Wokeness 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a MoMA Maya podcast. 0:00:13.925 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.565 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:19.405 --> 0:00:22.325 So the risk that I was taking was will I 0:00:22.405 --> 0:00:25.605 be betraying the black community? Will I be betraying women? 0:00:25.685 --> 0:00:28.165 Will I be betraying other left leaning people? Am I 0:00:28.205 --> 0:00:30.885 betraying my audience and friends and people that think they 0:00:30.925 --> 0:00:34.125 know me and my partner and whatever else? But also 0:00:34.885 --> 0:00:37.885 I was at such a point of the rage, if 0:00:37.925 --> 0:00:41.605 you will, because suddenly I couldn't unsee how many people 0:00:41.685 --> 0:00:46.685 were monetizing from people's shame. And the truth is, I 0:00:46.725 --> 0:00:49.205 was not afraid of cancelation. I was not afraid of 0:00:49.245 --> 0:00:49.845 the exile. 0:00:52.005 --> 0:00:55.565 Welcome to no filter from Mamma may I'm me afraidman, 0:00:56.125 --> 0:01:00.165 and I am afraid of being canceled every day in 0:01:00.285 --> 0:01:03.445 every way. But as you just heard, my guest today 0:01:03.605 --> 0:01:07.565 is not afraid, not anymore. Because in twenty twenty one, 0:01:07.885 --> 0:01:11.365 writer and activist Africa Brook wrote an open letter and 0:01:11.405 --> 0:01:17.085 posted it online. She called it why I'm Leaving the 0:01:17.165 --> 0:01:22.285 Cult of Wokeness, and it immediately went viral. She was 0:01:22.285 --> 0:01:24.565 twenty nine years old at the time, and that open 0:01:24.645 --> 0:01:27.325 letter changed her life but not in the way she 0:01:27.365 --> 0:01:30.285 expected it to. So what did she write in a 0:01:30.365 --> 0:01:34.685 letter and how did she become unafraid and also why 0:01:34.805 --> 0:01:39.205 she canceled. Africa believes that we are living right now 0:01:39.405 --> 0:01:43.405 in the age of intolerance. Hard agree. And she also 0:01:43.445 --> 0:01:45.885 believes that what the culture was demand of us is 0:01:45.885 --> 0:01:49.845 to pick aside and post loudly and incessantly about it 0:01:49.965 --> 0:01:52.645 on social media. And so for a long time, that's 0:01:52.645 --> 0:01:55.805 what she did until suddenly one day it made her 0:01:55.885 --> 0:01:59.605 feel sick. You're about to hear what happened that day, 0:02:00.005 --> 0:02:02.285 but before you learn what made her quit the so 0:02:02.365 --> 0:02:06.525 called cult of wokeness, you need to know how and 0:02:06.565 --> 0:02:11.525 why she joined in the first place. Africa's story actually 0:02:11.525 --> 0:02:15.445 begins back in twenty sixteen when she had a severe 0:02:15.525 --> 0:02:19.205 drinking problem. So I started by asking her how her 0:02:19.285 --> 0:02:22.285 alcohol addiction turned her into an activist. 0:02:23.205 --> 0:02:25.325 I was twenty four years old and I was trying 0:02:25.365 --> 0:02:29.605 to get sober. But I was struggling, struggling to let 0:02:29.645 --> 0:02:32.405 go of alcohol, and it was pretty bad. It wasn't 0:02:32.445 --> 0:02:35.285 sort of like a oh I take it a little 0:02:35.285 --> 0:02:38.525 bit too far. Sometimes it was alcoholism. So I was 0:02:38.525 --> 0:02:41.925 a blank out drinker, a bench drinker, very specifically, which 0:02:41.965 --> 0:02:45.405 I think the British and Australians understand that very well 0:02:45.445 --> 0:02:48.085 and know exactly what that is because it's embedded in 0:02:48.125 --> 0:02:51.485 our culture. I have always been a writer, I've always 0:02:51.565 --> 0:02:55.245 been in the creative world. So when I realized that 0:02:55.405 --> 0:02:58.605 this problem wasn't going to be going anywhere anytime soon, 0:02:58.685 --> 0:03:03.725 I started sharing online. I had relapsed seven times before that, 0:03:04.365 --> 0:03:07.725 and I really knew that if I don't find a 0:03:07.765 --> 0:03:11.525 way to get sober, going to be dead before I 0:03:11.605 --> 0:03:15.365 turned twenty five years old. So I started an Instagram account, 0:03:15.365 --> 0:03:17.605 which was anonymous at the time, still the same one 0:03:17.605 --> 0:03:20.885 that I have today, and I started sharing sharing as 0:03:20.925 --> 0:03:23.245 a way to keep myself sober, sharing as a way 0:03:23.285 --> 0:03:26.325 to see if my you know, cries for help would 0:03:26.365 --> 0:03:28.725 land with anyone out there. There was no plan to 0:03:28.725 --> 0:03:30.605 build any sort of platform in the way that I 0:03:30.645 --> 0:03:33.045 do now. None of that was part of the plan. 0:03:33.565 --> 0:03:35.645 I just needed to get well and I had no 0:03:35.805 --> 0:03:38.445 other space to do it offline. That was it. And 0:03:38.485 --> 0:03:41.365 then what happened is that my story got picked up 0:03:41.365 --> 0:03:44.005 pretty quickly by the UK media because of my age, 0:03:44.085 --> 0:03:46.405 because of the way that I spoke about it, but 0:03:46.485 --> 0:03:49.245 also it was just a sort of compelling story as well. 0:03:49.845 --> 0:03:53.645 And I was immediately. When I say immediately, I mean 0:03:53.685 --> 0:03:56.565 maybe six to eight months in, I was labeled as 0:03:56.605 --> 0:03:59.965 a sobriety advocate. And the thing is, when you become 0:04:00.005 --> 0:04:03.765 labeled as an advocate, you are also then labeled as 0:04:03.765 --> 0:04:07.125 an activist, you know. So that's an important piece of 0:04:07.165 --> 0:04:10.805 the story for me. Pretty early on into my recovery, 0:04:10.885 --> 0:04:14.205 me just sharing about recovery and my findings and you know, 0:04:15.005 --> 0:04:17.005 speaking in the way that I do now, but just 0:04:17.045 --> 0:04:19.925 in a very different way. It was very recovery specific 0:04:20.005 --> 0:04:23.325 at the time. I then became labeled an activist. And 0:04:23.405 --> 0:04:26.725 once you get labeled an activist, you're not only expected 0:04:26.765 --> 0:04:29.285 to speak about the specific thing you talk about. Now 0:04:29.365 --> 0:04:32.205 you have to activate for everything else. So now I 0:04:32.245 --> 0:04:34.725 can't just speak about recovery. I have to speak about 0:04:34.805 --> 0:04:37.965 recovery through the lens of being a black woman. And 0:04:38.005 --> 0:04:39.845 then after I do that, I have to speak about 0:04:39.845 --> 0:04:43.365 recovery through the lens of a black immigrant woman, and 0:04:43.365 --> 0:04:45.925 then so on and so on and so on. Right, 0:04:46.525 --> 0:04:49.045 But then it doesn't just stop with me. I have 0:04:49.125 --> 0:04:51.565 to start advocating for other people. And to be honest, 0:04:52.085 --> 0:04:56.445 I actually, how do I put this? Not even just 0:04:56.485 --> 0:04:59.205 on a credibility level, if I'm to be completely honest, 0:04:59.245 --> 0:05:02.725 I think on an egoic level, it felt quite good 0:05:03.045 --> 0:05:05.245 for people to think that I am someone that is 0:05:05.325 --> 0:05:07.405 worthy of taking up all of these causes. So I 0:05:07.445 --> 0:05:09.325 never really questioned it, you know what I mean. 0:05:09.525 --> 0:05:11.645 It's like, not all heroes wear capes. Some of them 0:05:11.685 --> 0:05:15.125 have a social media account, yeah, some of some of them. 0:05:15.045 --> 0:05:18.285 Post on Insta, they do, some of them make infographics, 0:05:18.685 --> 0:05:21.005 you know. So I think that part of the story 0:05:21.045 --> 0:05:24.405 is quite important because then twenty sixteen, especially with everything 0:05:24.445 --> 0:05:28.125 that happened in the US with Trump being elected, and 0:05:28.165 --> 0:05:31.205 then I would say that for me and actually most 0:05:31.245 --> 0:05:33.245 people that I speak to you, that's when we started 0:05:33.245 --> 0:05:36.245 to notice the sort of just how much our most 0:05:36.325 --> 0:05:39.925 intimate lives were being politicized. I don't remember before then 0:05:40.005 --> 0:05:44.325 people looking at every fucking thing through the lens of politics. 0:05:44.405 --> 0:05:48.805 I just don't, you know. Yeah, So twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, 0:05:48.885 --> 0:05:51.925 twenty eighteen, I started to go sort of deeper into 0:05:52.005 --> 0:05:55.085 social justice spaces, but I truly believed I still had 0:05:55.125 --> 0:05:58.245 my autonomy. I didn't believe that I was a social 0:05:58.365 --> 0:06:01.725 justice warrior or anything like that, but I supported anyone 0:06:01.845 --> 0:06:04.725 that was doing anything under social justice, because it's still 0:06:05.165 --> 0:06:07.405 a value that I hold closely to this day. It 0:06:07.485 --> 0:06:09.805 just looks very different to what I thinkt what it 0:06:09.885 --> 0:06:14.405 needed to look like. And I realized that even though 0:06:14.445 --> 0:06:18.245 I was a very confident, outspoken person and I'd been 0:06:18.285 --> 0:06:22.205 speaking publicly around very challenging things for a time, I 0:06:22.245 --> 0:06:25.405 just thought I'd feel very afraid in my own mind 0:06:25.525 --> 0:06:28.325 first to begin with. And I can realize it now 0:06:28.405 --> 0:06:31.885 more in retrospect, but I recognize what that feeling was. 0:06:31.925 --> 0:06:35.685 Where I felt that I couldn't ask questions was the 0:06:35.685 --> 0:06:39.365 first one, or that I couldn't point out any contradictions 0:06:39.885 --> 0:06:42.845 that would kind of poke holes in whatever the mission was, 0:06:43.005 --> 0:06:45.445 whether it was to do with race or gender, or 0:06:45.485 --> 0:06:49.405 sex or identity, anything that didn't quite make sense to me. 0:06:50.125 --> 0:06:52.565 I felt as if I just needed to keep it 0:06:52.605 --> 0:06:55.245 to myself. You know that I'm not allowed to talk 0:06:55.285 --> 0:06:57.965 about it because if I talk about it or ask 0:06:58.045 --> 0:07:01.765 the questions, I might seem as if, how do I 0:07:01.805 --> 0:07:03.725 put it, it felt like a betrayal. If I'm to 0:07:03.725 --> 0:07:06.365 put it very simply, It's not a logical thing. It 0:07:06.485 --> 0:07:09.045 just felt like I'm betraying black people if I ask 0:07:09.085 --> 0:07:12.485 these questions or point out these contradictions, or I'm betraying 0:07:12.845 --> 0:07:15.165 women if I say, actually, I don't think we should 0:07:15.245 --> 0:07:17.965 live in such a fearful way, or to believe that 0:07:18.045 --> 0:07:21.485 all men are just so many things that I just thought, okay, 0:07:21.605 --> 0:07:24.965 but how is this applicable? Is it applicable to every 0:07:25.005 --> 0:07:28.405 single situation? Just any critical thinking was sort of not 0:07:28.925 --> 0:07:32.685 allowed by myself but also by the environment around me. 0:07:32.805 --> 0:07:36.205 That was just the reality of it. So this suppression 0:07:36.205 --> 0:07:40.405 of my voice and my inner thoughts especially, it just 0:07:40.445 --> 0:07:44.405 started to come to a head around twenty nineteen because 0:07:44.485 --> 0:07:47.405 I felt that I wasn't being in complete integrity with 0:07:47.485 --> 0:07:50.525 my work. My work is about understanding self sabotage. My 0:07:50.565 --> 0:07:54.605 work has always been around self expression and taking emotional 0:07:54.645 --> 0:07:58.765 conversational risks. It's always been about having the conversations that 0:07:58.845 --> 0:08:01.605 no one wants to have. But I realized that there 0:08:01.685 --> 0:08:04.925 was an ever growing list of things that I was 0:08:04.965 --> 0:08:09.285 not allowed to say, you know, because. 0:08:09.005 --> 0:08:11.805 It did go with the correct opinion on that topic 0:08:11.925 --> 0:08:15.645 according to activists. Absolutely yeah, right, So like if you 0:08:15.765 --> 0:08:19.685 questioned the idea that say all men a rapists, and 0:08:19.765 --> 0:08:23.045 you said, well, hang on, not all men, right, or 0:08:23.325 --> 0:08:25.525 if say you believed. I don't know if this is 0:08:25.565 --> 0:08:27.685 something you believe or not, but if you believed in 0:08:27.765 --> 0:08:31.405 abortion but didn't feel comfortable with late term abortions for 0:08:31.485 --> 0:08:34.845 non medical reasons, for example, but you couldn't say those 0:08:34.845 --> 0:08:39.205 things publicly because the activists on those issues insisted you 0:08:39.325 --> 0:08:42.165 or either with them or you were an enemy, and 0:08:42.205 --> 0:08:44.085 you had to choose. There was no room for nuance. 0:08:44.685 --> 0:08:46.885 There you go, there you go, one hundred percent. And 0:08:46.925 --> 0:08:49.605 I think that was in the defense of men without 0:08:49.645 --> 0:08:51.965 taking the nuance of well, when we talk about men, 0:08:52.005 --> 0:08:54.685 we're also talking about boys, So how is it for 0:08:54.765 --> 0:08:56.965 boys to be hearing us speaking of that? There was 0:08:57.045 --> 0:08:59.885 just you can't, you can't. It just is what it is. 0:09:00.525 --> 0:09:02.725 So for me, all of that over the course of 0:09:02.925 --> 0:09:08.005 two to three years felt like a huge integrity breach massively. 0:09:08.085 --> 0:09:11.085 I just couldn't keep up with it any more internally 0:09:11.125 --> 0:09:15.845 for myself. And by the time twenty twenty comes around 0:09:16.045 --> 0:09:21.005 and George Floyd is murdered in the States, like anyone else, 0:09:21.165 --> 0:09:25.645 I was absolutely horrified. I felt just a level of 0:09:25.725 --> 0:09:28.845 sickness I've never felt before around the situation like that, 0:09:29.085 --> 0:09:30.765 And I think a lot of it is to do 0:09:30.925 --> 0:09:34.045 with the fact that we were all online and we 0:09:33.725 --> 0:09:38.245 will never experience well I hope we'll never experience anything 0:09:38.285 --> 0:09:42.045 like that again. But it was just a very different time. Psychologically, 0:09:42.125 --> 0:09:45.645 we were all very different. But there was something about 0:09:45.845 --> 0:09:48.325 that specific case and the way that it sort of 0:09:48.365 --> 0:09:52.125 just exploded all over the world, and how regardless of 0:09:52.165 --> 0:09:54.405 where you were in the world, you were supposed to 0:09:54.485 --> 0:09:57.685 behave and speak and respond to it in a very 0:09:57.765 --> 0:10:01.685 specific way, very specific way. I even write about it 0:10:01.725 --> 0:10:04.165 in the book and I say that even if you 0:10:04.245 --> 0:10:08.405 were a shepherd in rural Guero, which is Zimbabwe, you 0:10:08.445 --> 0:10:12.325 were expected to speak about this and to post the 0:10:12.405 --> 0:10:15.645 square and to atone for your sins if you happen 0:10:15.725 --> 0:10:18.565 to be white. For me, in the beginning, I felt 0:10:18.605 --> 0:10:21.885 that sort of, I'm black, I'm supposed to respond to 0:10:21.925 --> 0:10:25.805 this immediately. I'm supposed to call other white people in, 0:10:26.365 --> 0:10:30.125 you know, this idea, which I think is so self righteous. 0:10:30.245 --> 0:10:33.485 You know that I have to call people in, you know, 0:10:33.925 --> 0:10:35.925 But that's what it was. That's what I felt like. 0:10:36.285 --> 0:10:38.645 Can you explain the difference between calling someone out and 0:10:38.685 --> 0:10:41.245 calling someone in and how those two things have sort 0:10:41.285 --> 0:10:42.445 of seen differently. 0:10:43.245 --> 0:10:46.285 Well, first of all, I personally don't think there's any difference. 0:10:46.325 --> 0:10:49.925 But the idea of calling someone out, for example, is 0:10:49.965 --> 0:10:53.925 that you notice a problematic action or some kind of wrongdoing, 0:10:54.365 --> 0:10:58.685 then you have a duty to name whatever the harm 0:10:58.725 --> 0:11:01.485 that's been done, and you have a duty to use 0:11:01.805 --> 0:11:04.845 pretty much any means necessary apart from let's say, extreme 0:11:04.885 --> 0:11:08.485 physical violence, to shame the other person and to make 0:11:08.525 --> 0:11:10.925 them see what they have done so that they decide 0:11:11.365 --> 0:11:14.125 that they will take accountability for whatever the harm is. 0:11:14.605 --> 0:11:18.245 And the idea is that calling someone in is supposed 0:11:18.285 --> 0:11:20.325 to be you might notice, even in the way that 0:11:20.365 --> 0:11:23.805 I said it, it's supposed to be a more gentle 0:11:23.965 --> 0:11:28.005 approach of highlighting the harm that someone might have done. 0:11:28.125 --> 0:11:31.045 But you're approaching it like a good faith They're supposed 0:11:31.045 --> 0:11:33.005 to be a good faith approach around it, right. You're 0:11:33.045 --> 0:11:35.405 not supposed to assume that the other person did this 0:11:36.045 --> 0:11:39.365 maliciously and consciously. You're supposed to assume that maybe they 0:11:39.405 --> 0:11:41.845 just didn't realize what they were doing, So yeah, call 0:11:41.925 --> 0:11:44.565 them in, And you're supposed to do it privately before 0:11:44.565 --> 0:11:47.485 you do it publicly, and if the person doesn't want 0:11:47.485 --> 0:11:51.245 to respond privately, then your hand has been forced, and 0:11:51.285 --> 0:11:53.725 then you can do it publicly. But even publicly, it's 0:11:53.725 --> 0:11:56.445 supposed to be a little bit more gentle. But the 0:11:56.485 --> 0:11:58.285 reason why I say I don't think there's any difference 0:11:58.325 --> 0:12:01.645 because I don't think I've ever seen it executed in 0:12:01.765 --> 0:12:05.245 that way. Really, I just haven't seen that. 0:12:05.525 --> 0:12:07.925 And is that something that you did. Would you call 0:12:08.005 --> 0:12:10.885 people out and call them in and try to shame them. 0:12:11.045 --> 0:12:14.965 No, I never did anything like that. I never called 0:12:15.005 --> 0:12:17.565 anyone out or tried to call anyone in. I think 0:12:17.605 --> 0:12:20.365 I was just sort of sitting on the sidelines co 0:12:20.525 --> 0:12:23.965 signing that behavior. But I think I was co signing 0:12:24.045 --> 0:12:28.045 that behavior out of fear because if I have empathy 0:12:28.125 --> 0:12:31.365 for that person, then am I on the side of 0:12:31.405 --> 0:12:33.565 the harm doer? You know what I mean. That's the 0:12:33.885 --> 0:12:36.605 sort of sinister way all of these things work because 0:12:36.645 --> 0:12:40.765 it starts to act as almost cancelation by proximity. If 0:12:40.805 --> 0:12:43.685 I defend this person, I might get canceled too, So 0:12:43.765 --> 0:12:47.125 I just have to let it happen. So twenty twenty 0:12:47.245 --> 0:12:51.045 was very similar. In the beginning. I also was overwhelmed 0:12:51.045 --> 0:12:53.765 with emotion because a black man has been killed by 0:12:53.765 --> 0:12:57.325 the hands of the police. So it's a very specific Again, 0:12:58.245 --> 0:13:01.365 there's a truth, but there's a way that the truth 0:13:01.485 --> 0:13:04.725 is being put forward. That means that you all have 0:13:04.805 --> 0:13:06.845 to be in a state of fear. It's kind of 0:13:06.885 --> 0:13:10.605 like as if black people are being lynched type of 0:13:10.605 --> 0:13:14.085 thing without any any need to know what the details 0:13:14.085 --> 0:13:16.605 of it was. Because if you're curious about what the 0:13:16.685 --> 0:13:20.245 details are, that means you are siding with whatever the 0:13:20.285 --> 0:13:24.805 thing is. So in the beginning I pretty much joined 0:13:24.845 --> 0:13:29.725 the cause. I was horrified. I then was doing callouts, 0:13:29.765 --> 0:13:33.365 but not even specific people. It was mainly saying you 0:13:33.525 --> 0:13:35.685 need to be speaking up about this. It was a 0:13:35.805 --> 0:13:38.965 very silence is violence energy, That's how I would put it. 0:13:38.965 --> 0:13:42.005 It was very silence is violence. If you are not 0:13:42.085 --> 0:13:44.285 speaking out about this, then you are on the wrong 0:13:44.325 --> 0:13:46.245 side of history. Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, all 0:13:46.325 --> 0:13:48.925 the all the scripts that you can expect. Then I 0:13:49.645 --> 0:13:54.765 was applauded very loudly for it, very very loudly. It 0:13:54.845 --> 0:13:58.045 was like, how do I how do I put this? 0:13:58.205 --> 0:14:00.925 It was like you get a sort of rush off 0:14:01.005 --> 0:14:04.365 for adrenaline because it's also happening in an environment that 0:14:04.445 --> 0:14:07.605 is so abnormal. It's not actually normal for you to 0:14:07.685 --> 0:14:10.285 put out a thought and in me imediately it's co 0:14:10.485 --> 0:14:13.605 signed by thousands and thousands of people telling you that 0:14:13.685 --> 0:14:16.325 you've done a good job. The same thing can never 0:14:16.485 --> 0:14:18.725 happen offline. It just can't. 0:14:18.845 --> 0:14:21.565 It would be like getting a standing ovation, like going 0:14:21.645 --> 0:14:24.525 out into the street and saying something and having everyone 0:14:24.605 --> 0:14:26.485 just stop what they're doing and just turn to you 0:14:26.525 --> 0:14:27.125 and applaud. 0:14:27.645 --> 0:14:31.005 Yeah, that's exactly what it was, And I could see 0:14:31.725 --> 0:14:34.205 just how easy it is to get drunk on that 0:14:34.405 --> 0:14:38.285 level of validation and affirmation. But again, I use the 0:14:38.365 --> 0:14:42.445 language of integrity breach, and that's very specific language that 0:14:42.485 --> 0:14:45.485 I use for myself because my sobriety forced me to 0:14:45.565 --> 0:14:48.245 really think deeply about what my values actually are, to 0:14:48.285 --> 0:14:50.685 think about the kind of person that I am, So 0:14:50.965 --> 0:14:54.125 it's very easy for me to notice when I'm operating 0:14:54.245 --> 0:14:58.085 completely out of integrity, so that in that moment, I 0:14:58.125 --> 0:15:00.525 think it was about a couple of hours or something 0:15:00.565 --> 0:15:03.365 like that, all of this was happening in so I 0:15:03.405 --> 0:15:06.965 didn't sort of lean into this silence as violence energy 0:15:07.005 --> 0:15:09.525 for a prolonged amount of time, but for me was 0:15:09.565 --> 0:15:12.445 long enough because I had never really participated in anything 0:15:12.485 --> 0:15:14.525 like that before, So it was very sort of shocking 0:15:14.605 --> 0:15:16.685 to the system to see myself behave in this. 0:15:16.685 --> 0:15:19.765 Way, and there was a particular twenty four hour period 0:15:19.925 --> 0:15:23.045 during that time in twenty twenty when Black Lives Matter 0:15:23.085 --> 0:15:26.965 content completely dominated social media and where it seemed like 0:15:26.965 --> 0:15:30.565 the whole world was posting a black square in solidarity 0:15:30.645 --> 0:15:34.925 with the BLM movement, and also because people were scared 0:15:34.925 --> 0:15:38.085 of being canceled if they didn't post one, and then 0:15:38.125 --> 0:15:41.325 the active is canceled everyone anyway, because the black squares 0:15:41.325 --> 0:15:44.765 were apparently flooding feeds, and they said that it was 0:15:44.805 --> 0:15:49.485 preventing people from getting information from black creators about the 0:15:49.485 --> 0:15:52.245 movement Africa. Did you post the black Square? 0:15:52.965 --> 0:15:55.885 No? I didn't. I didn't. I was very close to 0:15:55.965 --> 0:15:59.725 posting the black square because even I, as a black person, 0:15:59.845 --> 0:16:03.765 felt pressure to post it. Because again, I really want 0:16:03.845 --> 0:16:06.005 to make it clear that there's so much nuance in 0:16:06.045 --> 0:16:08.765 what we're speaking about. So many conversations that were happening 0:16:08.805 --> 0:16:12.045 at the time were really necessary, and I think they 0:16:12.045 --> 0:16:15.165 have really transformed the way people understand race in a 0:16:15.285 --> 0:16:19.005 useful way. However, it then started to go to an extreme, 0:16:19.045 --> 0:16:21.085 to an extreme that I believe had this sort of 0:16:21.605 --> 0:16:24.845 religious undertone to it, the idea that if you are 0:16:24.845 --> 0:16:27.005 a white person, then you are pretty much born with 0:16:27.165 --> 0:16:30.325 original sin that is white supremacy, so you have to 0:16:30.365 --> 0:16:33.285 spend the rest of your life atoning for it through 0:16:33.325 --> 0:16:36.925 an anti racism course. You might notice that also in 0:16:37.005 --> 0:16:43.965 that year, all books to do with anti racism absolutely exploded, exploded, 0:16:44.165 --> 0:16:47.685 They did so so well. Other people got book deals 0:16:47.765 --> 0:16:51.045 because of that because they did something that went viral. 0:16:51.125 --> 0:16:54.685 So to me, there is an anti racism industrial complex. 0:16:54.725 --> 0:16:59.325 But that's a completely different conversation. But this is just 0:16:59.405 --> 0:17:01.805 the thing that I started to notice. But I had 0:17:02.205 --> 0:17:06.005 more questions because I started to think, well, how is 0:17:06.045 --> 0:17:08.685 a let's say, a young black girl who was adopted 0:17:08.685 --> 0:17:12.885 by white pairs supposed to feel about everything that we're 0:17:12.885 --> 0:17:17.205 saying right now? Is she supposed to start questioning her parents? 0:17:17.605 --> 0:17:20.805 Like I just didn't understand how a lot of what 0:17:21.005 --> 0:17:23.885 was being said is applicable into real life and the 0:17:23.965 --> 0:17:28.005 damage that it actually causes when we start interrogating every 0:17:28.125 --> 0:17:31.605 white person we've ever interacted with to see if any 0:17:31.645 --> 0:17:34.805 of maybe the conflicts that we had or disagreements were 0:17:34.805 --> 0:17:38.685 because of some kind of racial intent. There were things 0:17:38.685 --> 0:17:41.125 that I just didn't feel comfortable with over time, so 0:17:41.725 --> 0:17:44.525 I didn't post the Black Square because also I didn't 0:17:44.565 --> 0:17:46.885 understand the origin of it. I was hearing that it 0:17:46.925 --> 0:17:49.485 had come from the music industry and it was specifically 0:17:49.525 --> 0:17:53.805 for musicians, but then also so many black squares, it's 0:17:53.845 --> 0:17:56.885 actually blocking out the information for people to meet up 0:17:56.885 --> 0:18:00.685 and organize. So again, logically it just didn't make sense. 0:18:01.365 --> 0:18:04.765 But I did keep the mob away, if you will, 0:18:05.325 --> 0:18:08.645 by calling people out in a different way. So, if 0:18:08.645 --> 0:18:10.925 I'm to be honest, it's as if I found another 0:18:10.965 --> 0:18:12.645 way to be like, Okay, I'm not going to do 0:18:12.765 --> 0:18:15.485 that thing, but I'll do this instead. I'll use my 0:18:15.565 --> 0:18:18.405 platform to call everyone else out. So that's what I did. 0:18:18.925 --> 0:18:21.645 There was a man that slid into your DMS to 0:18:21.765 --> 0:18:27.925 question quite politely, I believe, what did he say to you? 0:18:28.005 --> 0:18:29.325 And what did you do in response? 0:18:29.845 --> 0:18:32.885 So this is when I was choosing my plan B 0:18:33.045 --> 0:18:35.125 of not posting the Black Square and then kind of 0:18:35.165 --> 0:18:37.685 just going hard and saying that everyone needs to be 0:18:37.725 --> 0:18:40.445 posting gosh. And you know what, even when I think 0:18:40.485 --> 0:18:44.205 about it, I'm like, oh my god, really really? 0:18:45.925 --> 0:18:49.245 So then you had a surreal situation where all these 0:18:49.285 --> 0:18:51.365 white people who were trying to be allies to the 0:18:51.365 --> 0:18:55.125 black community started panicking because they didn't know whether the 0:18:55.125 --> 0:18:57.005 best way to do that was to post the black 0:18:57.045 --> 0:19:00.885 square or delete the one that already posted. And suddenly 0:19:00.885 --> 0:19:04.005 it wasn't even about George Floyd anymore or fighting racism, 0:19:04.325 --> 0:19:07.405 but it suddenly became about cancelation by this group of 0:19:07.445 --> 0:19:10.765 vigilantes who were policing what everyone was doing. 0:19:11.725 --> 0:19:14.525 You just named it, That's exactly it. It stopped becoming 0:19:14.565 --> 0:19:17.765 about the thing. The intent just became very different. It 0:19:17.885 --> 0:19:20.805 just became very different. So that's what I was doing. 0:19:21.005 --> 0:19:23.365 Everyone should be talking about this. Why is no one talking? 0:19:23.365 --> 0:19:26.085 Blah blah blah? And then this man sends me a DM, 0:19:26.245 --> 0:19:30.045 which it was really polite. He was just curious about 0:19:30.045 --> 0:19:32.845 my approach. He had been someone that had been following 0:19:32.845 --> 0:19:35.165 my work for a while, so I think the way 0:19:35.205 --> 0:19:38.805 in which I was approaching this conversation was just very 0:19:38.845 --> 0:19:43.405 different from what he would have expected of me, understandably so, 0:19:43.405 --> 0:19:45.725 so he was pretty much just asking, do I really 0:19:45.765 --> 0:19:48.605 think this is the right way to be going about this. 0:19:48.845 --> 0:19:52.045 I'm saying that I want people to come together, people 0:19:52.045 --> 0:19:54.445 to be talking about this, So do I think that 0:19:54.525 --> 0:19:57.405 this is the right approach for it? And I didn't 0:19:57.685 --> 0:20:01.685 even respond to him. I screenshotted the DM. The conversation 0:20:02.445 --> 0:20:06.605 posted it onto my Instagram feed, and then again immediately 0:20:06.805 --> 0:20:09.725 because already I was getting cheers and validation from the 0:20:09.765 --> 0:20:14.245 calling out people calling in every self righteous action possible. 0:20:14.365 --> 0:20:18.005 You know, I was getting applauded for it. And when 0:20:18.045 --> 0:20:22.205 I posted that screenshot immediately again because you have to 0:20:22.445 --> 0:20:25.685 think back to the time, everyone is on their phones, yes, 0:20:26.125 --> 0:20:31.885 and everything would explode at that time, and that's exactly 0:20:31.885 --> 0:20:33.725 what happened with this post. And I think it was 0:20:33.925 --> 0:20:36.885 up for all of twenty minutes, but it had tens 0:20:36.925 --> 0:20:40.565 of thousands of likes and comments and well done. And 0:20:40.685 --> 0:20:43.085 he shouldn't be speaking to you in this way, you know, 0:20:43.365 --> 0:20:46.405 all of those ego stroking things, no one asked for 0:20:46.445 --> 0:20:50.005 any context. Actually, I think there were some people that 0:20:50.045 --> 0:20:53.405 were commenting saying that is a valuable thing to ask, 0:20:53.645 --> 0:20:56.925 you know, but I didn't. I didn't want to see 0:20:57.365 --> 0:20:59.405 any of that. I didn't want to see anything that 0:20:59.445 --> 0:21:01.405 would sort of break me out of this chance. 0:21:01.645 --> 0:21:03.485 Did it feel good those twenty minutes? 0:21:04.005 --> 0:21:07.725 Oh? Absolutely, are you kidding me? It feels like the 0:21:07.765 --> 0:21:11.525 thing that I was saying before. It's exhilarating, you feel powerful. 0:21:11.645 --> 0:21:14.285 It's like an arousal of all of the senses because 0:21:14.325 --> 0:21:19.485 you're getting an insanely abnormal amount of validation and affirmation 0:21:19.645 --> 0:21:22.405 from all corners of the globe. At the same time. 0:21:22.805 --> 0:21:27.805 You know, you can see actually how people easily become 0:21:27.925 --> 0:21:31.325 caricatures of themselves based on a moment in time. You 0:21:31.365 --> 0:21:33.965 see it. You see it because they want to repeat 0:21:34.005 --> 0:21:36.765 that same thing again and again and again. It's almost 0:21:36.765 --> 0:21:38.645 like taking drugs for the first time. 0:21:38.485 --> 0:21:41.765 And that becomes their identity exactly. 0:21:41.725 --> 0:21:44.165 And you're chasing that same feeling, so you're reading the 0:21:44.165 --> 0:21:47.685 same thing, and in that moment, it's about twenty minutes, 0:21:48.245 --> 0:21:50.565 I had this experience where I sort of zoomed out 0:21:50.565 --> 0:21:53.445 of myself. You could call it dissociation or whatever, but 0:21:53.525 --> 0:21:56.805 I think I had just hit my max of trying 0:21:56.845 --> 0:22:00.445 to of wearing the mask, if you will, of wearing 0:22:00.445 --> 0:22:03.445 the mask when actually had all of these questions. I 0:22:03.605 --> 0:22:06.325