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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Maya podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: So the risk that I was taking was will I

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Speaker 1: be betraying the black community? Will I be betraying women?

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Speaker 1: Will I be betraying other left leaning people? Am I

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Speaker 1: betraying my audience and friends and people that think they

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Speaker 1: know me and my partner and whatever else? But also

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Speaker 1: I was at such a point of the rage, if

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Speaker 1: you will, because suddenly I couldn't unsee how many people

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Speaker 1: were monetizing from people's shame. And the truth is, I

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Speaker 1: was not afraid of cancelation. I was not afraid of

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Speaker 1: the exile.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to no filter from Mamma may I'm me afraidman,

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Speaker 2: and I am afraid of being canceled every day in

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Speaker 2: every way. But as you just heard, my guest today

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Speaker 2: is not afraid, not anymore. Because in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: writer and activist Africa Brook wrote an open letter and

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Speaker 2: posted it online. She called it why I'm Leaving the

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Speaker 2: Cult of Wokeness, and it immediately went viral. She was

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Speaker 2: twenty nine years old at the time, and that open

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Speaker 2: letter changed her life but not in the way she

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Speaker 2: expected it to. So what did she write in a

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Speaker 2: letter and how did she become unafraid and also why

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Speaker 2: she canceled. Africa believes that we are living right now

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Speaker 2: in the age of intolerance. Hard agree. And she also

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Speaker 2: believes that what the culture was demand of us is

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Speaker 2: to pick aside and post loudly and incessantly about it

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Speaker 2: on social media. And so for a long time, that's

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Speaker 2: what she did until suddenly one day it made her

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Speaker 2: feel sick. You're about to hear what happened that day,

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Speaker 2: but before you learn what made her quit the so

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Speaker 2: called cult of wokeness, you need to know how and

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Speaker 2: why she joined in the first place. Africa's story actually

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Speaker 2: begins back in twenty sixteen when she had a severe

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Speaker 2: drinking problem. So I started by asking her how her

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Speaker 2: alcohol addiction turned her into an activist.

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Speaker 1: I was twenty four years old and I was trying

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Speaker 1: to get sober. But I was struggling, struggling to let

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Speaker 1: go of alcohol, and it was pretty bad. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: sort of like a oh I take it a little

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Speaker 1: bit too far. Sometimes it was alcoholism. So I was

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Speaker 1: a blank out drinker, a bench drinker, very specifically, which

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Speaker 1: I think the British and Australians understand that very well

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Speaker 1: and know exactly what that is because it's embedded in

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Speaker 1: our culture. I have always been a writer, I've always

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Speaker 1: been in the creative world. So when I realized that

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Speaker 1: this problem wasn't going to be going anywhere anytime soon,

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Speaker 1: I started sharing online. I had relapsed seven times before that,

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Speaker 1: and I really knew that if I don't find a

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Speaker 1: way to get sober, going to be dead before I

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Speaker 1: turned twenty five years old. So I started an Instagram account,

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Speaker 1: which was anonymous at the time, still the same one

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Speaker 1: that I have today, and I started sharing sharing as

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Speaker 1: a way to keep myself sober, sharing as a way

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Speaker 1: to see if my you know, cries for help would

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Speaker 1: land with anyone out there. There was no plan to

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Speaker 1: build any sort of platform in the way that I

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Speaker 1: do now. None of that was part of the plan.

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Speaker 1: I just needed to get well and I had no

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Speaker 1: other space to do it offline. That was it. And

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Speaker 1: then what happened is that my story got picked up

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly by the UK media because of my age,

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Speaker 1: because of the way that I spoke about it, but

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Speaker 1: also it was just a sort of compelling story as well.

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Speaker 1: And I was immediately. When I say immediately, I mean

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Speaker 1: maybe six to eight months in, I was labeled as

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Speaker 1: a sobriety advocate. And the thing is, when you become

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Speaker 1: labeled as an advocate, you are also then labeled as

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Speaker 1: an activist, you know. So that's an important piece of

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Speaker 1: the story for me. Pretty early on into my recovery,

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Speaker 1: me just sharing about recovery and my findings and you know,

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Speaker 1: speaking in the way that I do now, but just

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Speaker 1: in a very different way. It was very recovery specific

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Speaker 1: at the time. I then became labeled an activist. And

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Speaker 1: once you get labeled an activist, you're not only expected

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Speaker 1: to speak about the specific thing you talk about. Now

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Speaker 1: you have to activate for everything else. So now I

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Speaker 1: can't just speak about recovery. I have to speak about

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Speaker 1: recovery through the lens of being a black woman. And

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Speaker 1: then after I do that, I have to speak about

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Speaker 1: recovery through the lens of a black immigrant woman, and

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Speaker 1: then so on and so on and so on. Right,

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Speaker 1: But then it doesn't just stop with me. I have

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Speaker 1: to start advocating for other people. And to be honest,

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Speaker 1: I actually, how do I put this? Not even just

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Speaker 1: on a credibility level, if I'm to be completely honest,

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Speaker 1: I think on an egoic level, it felt quite good

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Speaker 1: for people to think that I am someone that is

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Speaker 1: worthy of taking up all of these causes. So I

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Speaker 1: never really questioned it, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's like, not all heroes wear capes. Some of them

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Speaker 2: have a social media account, yeah, some of some of them.

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Speaker 1: Post on Insta, they do, some of them make infographics,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I think that part of the story

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Speaker 1: is quite important because then twenty sixteen, especially with everything

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Speaker 1: that happened in the US with Trump being elected, and

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Speaker 1: then I would say that for me and actually most

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Speaker 1: people that I speak to you, that's when we started

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Speaker 1: to notice the sort of just how much our most

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Speaker 1: intimate lives were being politicized. I don't remember before then

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Speaker 1: people looking at every fucking thing through the lens of politics.

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Speaker 1: I just don't, you know. Yeah, So twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, I started to go sort of deeper into

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Speaker 1: social justice spaces, but I truly believed I still had

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Speaker 1: my autonomy. I didn't believe that I was a social

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Speaker 1: justice warrior or anything like that, but I supported anyone

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Speaker 1: that was doing anything under social justice, because it's still

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Speaker 1: a value that I hold closely to this day. It

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Speaker 1: just looks very different to what I thinkt what it

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Speaker 1: needed to look like. And I realized that even though

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Speaker 1: I was a very confident, outspoken person and I'd been

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Speaker 1: speaking publicly around very challenging things for a time, I

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Speaker 1: just thought I'd feel very afraid in my own mind

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Speaker 1: first to begin with. And I can realize it now

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Speaker 1: more in retrospect, but I recognize what that feeling was.

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Speaker 1: Where I felt that I couldn't ask questions was the

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Speaker 1: first one, or that I couldn't point out any contradictions

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Speaker 1: that would kind of poke holes in whatever the mission was,

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Speaker 1: whether it was to do with race or gender, or

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Speaker 1: sex or identity, anything that didn't quite make sense to me.

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Speaker 1: I felt as if I just needed to keep it

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Speaker 1: to myself. You know that I'm not allowed to talk

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Speaker 1: about it because if I talk about it or ask

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Speaker 1: the questions, I might seem as if, how do I

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Speaker 1: put it, it felt like a betrayal. If I'm to

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Speaker 1: put it very simply, It's not a logical thing. It

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Speaker 1: just felt like I'm betraying black people if I ask

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Speaker 1: these questions or point out these contradictions, or I'm betraying

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Speaker 1: women if I say, actually, I don't think we should

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Speaker 1: live in such a fearful way, or to believe that

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Speaker 1: all men are just so many things that I just thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: but how is this applicable? Is it applicable to every

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Speaker 1: single situation? Just any critical thinking was sort of not

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Speaker 1: allowed by myself but also by the environment around me.

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Speaker 1: That was just the reality of it. So this suppression

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Speaker 1: of my voice and my inner thoughts especially, it just

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Speaker 1: started to come to a head around twenty nineteen because

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Speaker 1: I felt that I wasn't being in complete integrity with

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Speaker 1: my work. My work is about understanding self sabotage. My

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Speaker 1: work has always been around self expression and taking emotional

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Speaker 1: conversational risks. It's always been about having the conversations that

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Speaker 1: no one wants to have. But I realized that there

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Speaker 1: was an ever growing list of things that I was

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Speaker 1: not allowed to say, you know, because.

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Speaker 2: It did go with the correct opinion on that topic

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Speaker 2: according to activists. Absolutely yeah, right, So like if you

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Speaker 2: questioned the idea that say all men a rapists, and

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Speaker 2: you said, well, hang on, not all men, right, or

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Speaker 2: if say you believed. I don't know if this is

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Speaker 2: something you believe or not, but if you believed in

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Speaker 2: abortion but didn't feel comfortable with late term abortions for

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Speaker 2: non medical reasons, for example, but you couldn't say those

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Speaker 2: things publicly because the activists on those issues insisted you

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Speaker 2: or either with them or you were an enemy, and

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Speaker 2: you had to choose. There was no room for nuance.

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Speaker 1: There you go, there you go, one hundred percent. And

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Speaker 1: I think that was in the defense of men without

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Speaker 1: taking the nuance of well, when we talk about men,

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Speaker 1: we're also talking about boys, So how is it for

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Speaker 1: boys to be hearing us speaking of that? There was

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Speaker 1: just you can't, you can't. It just is what it is.

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Speaker 1: So for me, all of that over the course of

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Speaker 1: two to three years felt like a huge integrity breach massively.

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't keep up with it any more internally

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Speaker 1: for myself. And by the time twenty twenty comes around

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Speaker 1: and George Floyd is murdered in the States, like anyone else,

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Speaker 1: I was absolutely horrified. I felt just a level of

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Speaker 1: sickness I've never felt before around the situation like that,

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Speaker 1: And I think a lot of it is to do

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Speaker 1: with the fact that we were all online and we

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Speaker 1: will never experience well I hope we'll never experience anything

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Speaker 1: like that again. But it was just a very different time. Psychologically,

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Speaker 1: we were all very different. But there was something about

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Speaker 1: that specific case and the way that it sort of

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Speaker 1: just exploded all over the world, and how regardless of

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Speaker 1: where you were in the world, you were supposed to

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Speaker 1: behave and speak and respond to it in a very

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Speaker 1: specific way, very specific way. I even write about it

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Speaker 1: in the book and I say that even if you

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Speaker 1: were a shepherd in rural Guero, which is Zimbabwe, you

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Speaker 1: were expected to speak about this and to post the

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Speaker 1: square and to atone for your sins if you happen

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Speaker 1: to be white. For me, in the beginning, I felt

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Speaker 1: that sort of, I'm black, I'm supposed to respond to

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Speaker 1: this immediately. I'm supposed to call other white people in,

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Speaker 1: you know, this idea, which I think is so self righteous.

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Speaker 1: You know that I have to call people in, you know,

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Speaker 1: But that's what it was. That's what I felt like.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain the difference between calling someone out and

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Speaker 2: calling someone in and how those two things have sort

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Speaker 2: of seen differently.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I personally don't think there's any difference.

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Speaker 1: But the idea of calling someone out, for example, is

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Speaker 1: that you notice a problematic action or some kind of wrongdoing,

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Speaker 1: then you have a duty to name whatever the harm

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Speaker 1: that's been done, and you have a duty to use

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Speaker 1: pretty much any means necessary apart from let's say, extreme

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Speaker 1: physical violence, to shame the other person and to make

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Speaker 1: them see what they have done so that they decide

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Speaker 1: that they will take accountability for whatever the harm is.

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Speaker 1: And the idea is that calling someone in is supposed

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Speaker 1: to be you might notice, even in the way that

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Speaker 1: I said it, it's supposed to be a more gentle

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Speaker 1: approach of highlighting the harm that someone might have done.

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Speaker 1: But you're approaching it like a good faith They're supposed

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Speaker 1: to be a good faith approach around it, right. You're

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Speaker 1: not supposed to assume that the other person did this

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Speaker 1: maliciously and consciously. You're supposed to assume that maybe they

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Speaker 1: just didn't realize what they were doing, So yeah, call

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Speaker 1: them in, And you're supposed to do it privately before

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Speaker 1: you do it publicly, and if the person doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to respond privately, then your hand has been forced, and

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Speaker 1: then you can do it publicly. But even publicly, it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be a little bit more gentle. But the

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Speaker 1: reason why I say I don't think there's any difference

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Speaker 1: because I don't think I've ever seen it executed in

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Speaker 1: that way. Really, I just haven't seen that.

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Speaker 2: And is that something that you did. Would you call

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Speaker 2: people out and call them in and try to shame them.

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Speaker 1: No, I never did anything like that. I never called

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Speaker 1: anyone out or tried to call anyone in. I think

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Speaker 1: I was just sort of sitting on the sidelines co

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Speaker 1: signing that behavior. But I think I was co signing

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Speaker 1: that behavior out of fear because if I have empathy

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Speaker 1: for that person, then am I on the side of

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Speaker 1: the harm doer? You know what I mean. That's the

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Speaker 1: sort of sinister way all of these things work because

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Speaker 1: it starts to act as almost cancelation by proximity. If

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Speaker 1: I defend this person, I might get canceled too, So

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Speaker 1: I just have to let it happen. So twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: was very similar. In the beginning. I also was overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: with emotion because a black man has been killed by

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Speaker 1: the hands of the police. So it's a very specific Again,

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Speaker 1: there's a truth, but there's a way that the truth

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Speaker 1: is being put forward. That means that you all have

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Speaker 1: to be in a state of fear. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like as if black people are being lynched type of

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Speaker 1: thing without any any need to know what the details

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Speaker 1: of it was. Because if you're curious about what the

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Speaker 1: details are, that means you are siding with whatever the

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Speaker 1: thing is. So in the beginning I pretty much joined

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Speaker 1: the cause. I was horrified. I then was doing callouts,

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Speaker 1: but not even specific people. It was mainly saying you

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Speaker 1: need to be speaking up about this. It was a

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Speaker 1: very silence is violence energy, That's how I would put it.

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Speaker 1: It was very silence is violence. If you are not

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Speaker 1: speaking out about this, then you are on the wrong

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Speaker 1: side of history. Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, all

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Speaker 1: the all the scripts that you can expect. Then I

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Speaker 1: was applauded very loudly for it, very very loudly. It

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Speaker 1: was like, how do I how do I put this?

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Speaker 1: It was like you get a sort of rush off

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Speaker 1: for adrenaline because it's also happening in an environment that

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Speaker 1: is so abnormal. It's not actually normal for you to

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Speaker 1: put out a thought and in me imediately it's co

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Speaker 1: signed by thousands and thousands of people telling you that

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Speaker 1: you've done a good job. The same thing can never

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Speaker 1: happen offline. It just can't.

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Speaker 2: It would be like getting a standing ovation, like going

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Speaker 2: out into the street and saying something and having everyone

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Speaker 2: just stop what they're doing and just turn to you

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Speaker 2: and applaud.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly what it was, And I could see

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Speaker 1: just how easy it is to get drunk on that

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Speaker 1: level of validation and affirmation. But again, I use the

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Speaker 1: language of integrity breach, and that's very specific language that

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Speaker 1: I use for myself because my sobriety forced me to

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Speaker 1: really think deeply about what my values actually are, to

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Speaker 1: think about the kind of person that I am, So

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Speaker 1: it's very easy for me to notice when I'm operating

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Speaker 1: completely out of integrity, so that in that moment, I

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Speaker 1: think it was about a couple of hours or something

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Speaker 1: like that, all of this was happening in so I

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Speaker 1: didn't sort of lean into this silence as violence energy

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Speaker 1: for a prolonged amount of time, but for me was

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Speaker 1: long enough because I had never really participated in anything

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Speaker 1: like that before, So it was very sort of shocking

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Speaker 1: to the system to see myself behave in this.

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Speaker 2: Way, and there was a particular twenty four hour period

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Speaker 2: during that time in twenty twenty when Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 2: content completely dominated social media and where it seemed like

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Speaker 2: the whole world was posting a black square in solidarity

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Speaker 2: with the BLM movement, and also because people were scared

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Speaker 2: of being canceled if they didn't post one, and then

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Speaker 2: the active is canceled everyone anyway, because the black squares

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Speaker 2: were apparently flooding feeds, and they said that it was

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Speaker 2: preventing people from getting information from black creators about the

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Speaker 2: movement Africa. Did you post the black Square?

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Speaker 1: No? I didn't. I didn't. I was very close to

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Speaker 1: posting the black square because even I, as a black person,

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Speaker 1: felt pressure to post it. Because again, I really want

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Speaker 1: to make it clear that there's so much nuance in

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Speaker 1: what we're speaking about. So many conversations that were happening

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Speaker 1: at the time were really necessary, and I think they

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Speaker 1: have really transformed the way people understand race in a

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Speaker 1: useful way. However, it then started to go to an extreme,

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Speaker 1: to an extreme that I believe had this sort of

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Speaker 1: religious undertone to it, the idea that if you are

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Speaker 1: a white person, then you are pretty much born with

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Speaker 1: original sin that is white supremacy, so you have to

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Speaker 1: spend the rest of your life atoning for it through

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Speaker 1: an anti racism course. You might notice that also in

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Speaker 1: that year, all books to do with anti racism absolutely exploded, exploded,

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Speaker 1: They did so so well. Other people got book deals

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Speaker 1: because of that because they did something that went viral.

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Speaker 1: So to me, there is an anti racism industrial complex.

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Speaker 1: But that's a completely different conversation. But this is just

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Speaker 1: the thing that I started to notice. But I had

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Speaker 1: more questions because I started to think, well, how is

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Speaker 1: a let's say, a young black girl who was adopted

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Speaker 1: by white pairs supposed to feel about everything that we're

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Speaker 1: saying right now? Is she supposed to start questioning her parents?

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Speaker 1: Like I just didn't understand how a lot of what

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Speaker 1: was being said is applicable into real life and the

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Speaker 1: damage that it actually causes when we start interrogating every

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Speaker 1: white person we've ever interacted with to see if any

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Speaker 1: of maybe the conflicts that we had or disagreements were

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Speaker 1: because of some kind of racial intent. There were things

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Speaker 1: that I just didn't feel comfortable with over time, so

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Speaker 1: I didn't post the Black Square because also I didn't

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Speaker 1: understand the origin of it. I was hearing that it

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Speaker 1: had come from the music industry and it was specifically

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Speaker 1: for musicians, but then also so many black squares, it's

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Speaker 1: actually blocking out the information for people to meet up

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Speaker 1: and organize. So again, logically it just didn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: But I did keep the mob away, if you will,

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Speaker 1: by calling people out in a different way. So, if

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Speaker 1: I'm to be honest, it's as if I found another

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Speaker 1: way to be like, Okay, I'm not going to do

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Speaker 1: that thing, but I'll do this instead. I'll use my

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Speaker 1: platform to call everyone else out. So that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: There was a man that slid into your DMS to

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Speaker 2: question quite politely, I believe, what did he say to you?

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Speaker 2: And what did you do in response?

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Speaker 1: So this is when I was choosing my plan B

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Speaker 1: of not posting the Black Square and then kind of

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Speaker 1: just going hard and saying that everyone needs to be

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Speaker 1: posting gosh. And you know what, even when I think

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Speaker 1: about it, I'm like, oh my god, really really?

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Speaker 2: So then you had a surreal situation where all these

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Speaker 2: white people who were trying to be allies to the

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Speaker 2: black community started panicking because they didn't know whether the

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Speaker 2: best way to do that was to post the black

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Speaker 2: square or delete the one that already posted. And suddenly

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Speaker 2: it wasn't even about George Floyd anymore or fighting racism,

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00:19:04,325 --> 00:19:07,405
Speaker 2: but it suddenly became about cancelation by this group of

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Speaker 2: vigilantes who were policing what everyone was doing.

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Speaker 1: You just named it, That's exactly it. It stopped becoming

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Speaker 1: about the thing. The intent just became very different. It

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Speaker 1: just became very different. So that's what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: Everyone should be talking about this. Why is no one talking?

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah? And then this man sends me a DM,

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Speaker 1: which it was really polite. He was just curious about

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Speaker 1: my approach. He had been someone that had been following

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Speaker 1: my work for a while, so I think the way

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Speaker 1: in which I was approaching this conversation was just very

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Speaker 1: different from what he would have expected of me, understandably so,

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Speaker 1: so he was pretty much just asking, do I really

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Speaker 1: think this is the right way to be going about this.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying that I want people to come together, people

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Speaker 1: to be talking about this, So do I think that

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Speaker 1: this is the right approach for it? And I didn't

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Speaker 1: even respond to him. I screenshotted the DM. The conversation

365
00:20:02,445 --> 00:20:06,605
Speaker 1: posted it onto my Instagram feed, and then again immediately

366
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Speaker 1: because already I was getting cheers and validation from the

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Speaker 1: calling out people calling in every self righteous action possible.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was getting applauded for it. And when

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Speaker 1: I posted that screenshot immediately again because you have to

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Speaker 1: think back to the time, everyone is on their phones, yes,

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Speaker 1: and everything would explode at that time, and that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what happened with this post. And I think it was

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Speaker 1: up for all of twenty minutes, but it had tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands of likes and comments and well done. And

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Speaker 1: he shouldn't be speaking to you in this way, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of those ego stroking things, no one asked for

377
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Speaker 1: any context. Actually, I think there were some people that

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00:20:50,045 --> 00:20:53,405
Speaker 1: were commenting saying that is a valuable thing to ask,

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Speaker 1: you know, but I didn't. I didn't want to see

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Speaker 1: any of that. I didn't want to see anything that

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Speaker 1: would sort of break me out of this chance.

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Speaker 2: Did it feel good those twenty minutes?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely, are you kidding me? It feels like the

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Speaker 1: thing that I was saying before. It's exhilarating, you feel powerful.

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Speaker 1: It's like an arousal of all of the senses because

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Speaker 1: you're getting an insanely abnormal amount of validation and affirmation

387
00:21:19,645 --> 00:21:22,405
Speaker 1: from all corners of the globe. At the same time.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can see actually how people easily become

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00:21:27,925 --> 00:21:31,325
Speaker 1: caricatures of themselves based on a moment in time. You

390
00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:33,965
Speaker 1: see it. You see it because they want to repeat

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00:21:34,005 --> 00:21:36,765
Speaker 1: that same thing again and again and again. It's almost

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Speaker 1: like taking drugs for the first time.

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Speaker 2: And that becomes their identity exactly.

394
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Speaker 1: And you're chasing that same feeling, so you're reading the

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Speaker 1: same thing, and in that moment, it's about twenty minutes,

396
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Speaker 1: I had this experience where I sort of zoomed out

397
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Speaker 1: of myself. You could call it dissociation or whatever, but

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Speaker 1: I think I had just hit my max of trying

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Speaker 1: to of wearing the mask, if you will, of wearing

400
00:22:00,445 --> 00:22:03,445
Speaker 1: the mask when actually had all of these questions. I

401
00:22:03,605 --> 00:22:06,325
Speaker 1: somewhat agreed with this man, and I knew that he

402
00:22:06,445 --> 00:22:09,685
Speaker 1: was saying was valuable, but the cognitive dissonance was so intense. Hence,

403
00:22:10,205 --> 00:22:12,005
Speaker 1: and to be honest, I think it was shame. I

404
00:22:12,045 --> 00:22:16,045
Speaker 1: felt ashamed because he was right. I felt ashamed because

405
00:22:16,245 --> 00:22:18,445
Speaker 1: everything that I was doing in this moment in time

406
00:22:18,605 --> 00:22:22,205
Speaker 1: was so directly opposing the work that I'd been doing

407
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Speaker 1: for the past five to six years. I was ashamed

408
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Speaker 1: because I had been called out. To be honest, I

409
00:22:29,165 --> 00:22:31,925
Speaker 1: would say what this man did with the truly calling in,

410
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Speaker 1: calling someone in saying hey, coming into me privately and

411
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Speaker 1: saying hey, I've been following your work for a while

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Speaker 1: and I respect what you do. So I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to know, do you genuinely believe that this is the

414
00:22:42,205 --> 00:22:45,725
Speaker 1: right approach? You know? So it's almost as if that's

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Speaker 1: what it was, cognitive dissonance, which was wrapped in shame

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Speaker 1: and embarrassment and having to look at myself, you know,

417
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Speaker 1: so instead of taking the time to respond to him,

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Speaker 1: I was going to publicly shame him instead.

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Speaker 2: You know, why did you take it down?

420
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Speaker 1: I took it down because I had that experience of

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Speaker 1: seeing myself behaving in this way, and I felt sick.

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Speaker 1: I don't I have many moments in my life where

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Speaker 1: something has happened psychologically that has actually made me feel

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Speaker 1: so sick, and that was one of those moments. And

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Speaker 1: I immediately deleted the post and I logged out off

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Speaker 1: Instagram I think for a day or a couple of days,

427
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Speaker 1: and in that time I just started journaling. I just

428
00:23:29,405 --> 00:23:34,445
Speaker 1: started writing everything, everything that I had felt afraid to say,

429
00:23:35,085 --> 00:23:38,645
Speaker 1: everything that I had seen in myself, everything that I

430
00:23:38,645 --> 00:23:40,685
Speaker 1: had been writing over the past couple of years, because

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Speaker 1: I've always journaled, so all of those moments that I

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Speaker 1: felt I needed to speak and think and behave in

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Speaker 1: a specific way, because I'm Black, because I'm supposedly left leaning,

434
00:23:50,525 --> 00:23:53,605
Speaker 1: because of all of these identity things. I wrote it down,

435
00:23:53,845 --> 00:23:57,485
Speaker 1: and that is what inspired the open letter that I

436
00:23:57,525 --> 00:24:00,765
Speaker 1: would then write in early twenty twenty one, which was

437
00:24:00,805 --> 00:24:04,085
Speaker 1: called why I'm leaving the Cult of Wokeness. So that

438
00:24:04,165 --> 00:24:07,445
Speaker 1: open letter didn't just sort of happen. I wrote it

439
00:24:07,485 --> 00:24:09,565
Speaker 1: in two hours. It was four thousand words. I wrote

440
00:24:09,565 --> 00:24:11,565
Speaker 1: it in a couple of hours, but it was a

441
00:24:11,685 --> 00:24:14,805
Speaker 1: build up from twenty eighteen. As I was saying to you,

442
00:24:15,325 --> 00:24:18,725
Speaker 1: of just suddenly realizing that I have been betraying myself

443
00:24:18,765 --> 00:24:23,085
Speaker 1: without even realizing, I have been self editing and monitoring

444
00:24:23,085 --> 00:24:27,045
Speaker 1: my language and replacing my language with scripts and things

445
00:24:27,045 --> 00:24:29,165
Speaker 1: that I don't actually believe in, because I thought if

446
00:24:29,245 --> 00:24:32,685
Speaker 1: I truly say what I think, or I truly just

447
00:24:32,805 --> 00:24:36,525
Speaker 1: generally express curiosity in a way that is not so

448
00:24:36,645 --> 00:24:39,325
Speaker 1: called allowed, that I'm going to be canceled, that I'm

449
00:24:39,325 --> 00:24:41,565
Speaker 1: going to be punished for it, that I'm going to

450
00:24:41,605 --> 00:24:45,045
Speaker 1: be exiled by my community, That i will lose my audience,

451
00:24:45,045 --> 00:24:47,845
Speaker 1: that I will lose my clients, that I will lose opportunities.

452
00:24:48,525 --> 00:24:52,765
Speaker 1: All of these things. I associated speaking the truth with loss.

453
00:24:53,045 --> 00:24:56,005
Speaker 1: There was no other way around it. It was just like,

454
00:24:56,125 --> 00:24:58,765
Speaker 1: if I ask questions, if I speak the truth, if

455
00:24:58,845 --> 00:25:02,405
Speaker 1: I point out contradictions, there will be loss. There was

456
00:25:02,485 --> 00:25:05,525
Speaker 1: no you know what I referred to as the third perspective.

457
00:25:05,565 --> 00:25:07,645
Speaker 1: There was no kind of nuance, There was no grade.

458
00:25:07,725 --> 00:25:10,685
Speaker 1: There was no well, I'm lose these people, but what

459
00:25:10,725 --> 00:25:14,165
Speaker 1: if I gain all of that, or actually I don't

460
00:25:14,205 --> 00:25:17,325
Speaker 1: need an audience that expects me to perform a very

461
00:25:17,365 --> 00:25:22,605
Speaker 1: specific version of myself. There was just no option of

462
00:25:23,005 --> 00:25:26,925
Speaker 1: any other way to be apart from compliance. So twenty

463
00:25:27,045 --> 00:25:31,165
Speaker 1: twenty was really big because of that. And then shortly after,

464
00:25:31,565 --> 00:25:35,805
Speaker 1: you know, the racial uprising then became the are you

465
00:25:35,925 --> 00:25:40,485
Speaker 1: vaccinated or not vaccinated conversation, which then became another whole thing.

466
00:25:40,925 --> 00:25:43,085
Speaker 1: So all of that is for me what inspired me

467
00:25:43,165 --> 00:25:45,325
Speaker 1: to write that open letter and to just make the

468
00:25:45,405 --> 00:25:49,485
Speaker 1: declaration that whatever, whatever this thing is, whatever this game

469
00:25:49,605 --> 00:25:53,125
Speaker 1: is I just refuse to do it. I won't do

470
00:25:53,165 --> 00:25:54,245
Speaker 1: it anymore.

471
00:25:55,605 --> 00:25:59,285
Speaker 2: After this shortbreak. What happened after Africa shared her views

472
00:25:59,325 --> 00:26:08,165
Speaker 2: with the world was she canceled? Did you regret it? Africa?

473
00:26:08,205 --> 00:26:10,925
Speaker 2: You begin your open life with the words, if there's

474
00:26:11,005 --> 00:26:13,965
Speaker 2: one thing I'm not afraid of, it's being canceled. If

475
00:26:14,005 --> 00:26:16,805
Speaker 2: being canceled means me living in integrity as a human

476
00:26:16,845 --> 00:26:20,685
Speaker 2: being who thinks for themselves, cancel me today. I repeat,

477
00:26:21,165 --> 00:26:25,525
Speaker 2: I am not afraid. Were you really not afraid? Because

478
00:26:25,765 --> 00:26:29,285
Speaker 2: I think everyone today, whether or not they're a public figure,

479
00:26:30,405 --> 00:26:33,645
Speaker 2: is pretty afraid of being canceled, right because it can

480
00:26:33,685 --> 00:26:37,285
Speaker 2: feel like we're all one misstep away from cancelation. And

481
00:26:37,325 --> 00:26:40,085
Speaker 2: we've seen it happen to enough people now to know

482
00:26:40,165 --> 00:26:43,565
Speaker 2: how brutal it looks. So how did you become unafraid

483
00:26:43,565 --> 00:26:43,765
Speaker 2: of that?

484
00:26:45,165 --> 00:26:49,205
Speaker 1: You know? What I think, if there's anything that I've learned,

485
00:26:49,285 --> 00:26:53,205
Speaker 1: is that fear never absolutely goes away. It's just a

486
00:26:53,205 --> 00:26:58,085
Speaker 1: different quality of fear. I think. So for me, I

487
00:26:58,165 --> 00:27:01,885
Speaker 1: did have that undercurrent of fear, which is absolutely normal,

488
00:27:01,965 --> 00:27:05,045
Speaker 1: because I was doing something that was so high risk

489
00:27:05,205 --> 00:27:09,085
Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons, for a lot of reasons,

490
00:27:09,525 --> 00:27:13,725
Speaker 1: because I felt that me pressing published was again, all

491
00:27:13,725 --> 00:27:16,005
Speaker 1: of it was based on identity, because we're in such

492
00:27:16,045 --> 00:27:19,965
Speaker 1: an identity obsessed world, and when you are a racialized

493
00:27:20,005 --> 00:27:22,325
Speaker 1: person that has been labeled an activist and all of

494
00:27:22,365 --> 00:27:25,925
Speaker 1: these other things, there are expectations off you. So the

495
00:27:26,005 --> 00:27:29,765
Speaker 1: risk that I was taking was will I be betraying

496
00:27:29,885 --> 00:27:32,485
Speaker 1: the black community, Will I be betraying women? Will I

497
00:27:32,525 --> 00:27:35,325
Speaker 1: be betraying other left leaning people? Am I betraying my

498
00:27:35,405 --> 00:27:37,685
Speaker 1: audience and friends and people that think they know me

499
00:27:37,845 --> 00:27:41,645
Speaker 1: and my partner and whatever else? But also I was

500
00:27:41,685 --> 00:27:45,045
Speaker 1: at such a point of almost like a rage, if

501
00:27:45,085 --> 00:27:48,765
Speaker 1: you will, because suddenly I couldn't unsee how many people

502
00:27:48,845 --> 00:27:53,445
Speaker 1: were monetizing from people's shame. I couldn't unsee how many

503
00:27:53,485 --> 00:27:57,325
Speaker 1: people were actually making this a business. They didn't want

504
00:27:57,485 --> 00:28:00,885
Speaker 1: racism to go away, you know, because then they're out

505
00:28:00,925 --> 00:28:02,885
Speaker 1: of pocket. They're out of a book deal, they're out

506
00:28:02,885 --> 00:28:04,925
Speaker 1: of a brand deal, they're out of all of these things.

507
00:28:04,925 --> 00:28:10,045
Speaker 1: So they're constantly creating problems. I couldn't unsee the people

508
00:28:10,165 --> 00:28:13,485
Speaker 1: or the activists that are constantly keeping women so afraid,

509
00:28:14,045 --> 00:28:18,125
Speaker 1: you know, never making women feel empowered about the realities

510
00:28:18,165 --> 00:28:20,805
Speaker 1: of the world. But there was just so much fear

511
00:28:20,885 --> 00:28:25,645
Speaker 1: that was being sold as progress and empowerment, and that

512
00:28:25,765 --> 00:28:28,165
Speaker 1: enraged me to the point of actually not allowing what

513
00:28:28,245 --> 00:28:31,005
Speaker 1: of a fear that I felt to consume me because

514
00:28:31,085 --> 00:28:33,725
Speaker 1: I had realized that I had been such a coward.

515
00:28:33,845 --> 00:28:35,805
Speaker 1: I had been a coward and I didn't even know,

516
00:28:36,245 --> 00:28:39,205
Speaker 1: and I had so much compassion and empathy for that coward.

517
00:28:39,605 --> 00:28:43,125
Speaker 1: But I needed this version of Africa to step forward

518
00:28:43,205 --> 00:28:46,165
Speaker 1: and to say this is what we're doing now. So

519
00:28:46,485 --> 00:28:49,125
Speaker 1: I was not The truth is I was not afraid

520
00:28:49,165 --> 00:28:52,045
Speaker 1: of cancelation. I was not afraid of the exile. I

521
00:28:52,125 --> 00:28:55,685
Speaker 1: was afraid of the uncertainty because there's so much unknown

522
00:28:55,885 --> 00:28:58,845
Speaker 1: once you liberate yourself, there is so much that is unknown.

523
00:28:59,125 --> 00:29:02,725
Speaker 1: But in writing those words, even when I read them

524
00:29:02,765 --> 00:29:05,285
Speaker 1: back now or someone reads them back to me, I

525
00:29:05,365 --> 00:29:08,525
Speaker 1: feel a sense of so much power. That's exactly how

526
00:29:08,565 --> 00:29:11,925
Speaker 1: I felt in that moment. I didn't feel consumed by

527
00:29:11,965 --> 00:29:14,765
Speaker 1: fear at all. I didn't, But I think it's because

528
00:29:14,805 --> 00:29:18,285
Speaker 1: being consumed by fear was just no longer a choice

529
00:29:18,485 --> 00:29:19,165
Speaker 1: at that time.

530
00:29:19,445 --> 00:29:22,845
Speaker 2: Your open letter went viral. It's currently been read by

531
00:29:22,925 --> 00:29:26,525
Speaker 2: I think around twenty million people. Were you canceled?

532
00:29:27,565 --> 00:29:35,085
Speaker 1: No what happened quite the opposite. Actually my letter, I

533
00:29:35,285 --> 00:29:38,485
Speaker 1: realized here's the thing. By the way, can I ask

534
00:29:38,485 --> 00:29:40,925
Speaker 1: you a question, how do you define cancelation?

535
00:29:41,245 --> 00:29:44,565
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question, isn't it. I mean, I've

536
00:29:44,605 --> 00:29:48,605
Speaker 2: been canceled so many times, over so many years before

537
00:29:48,605 --> 00:29:50,405
Speaker 2: it was even called that. It used to be called

538
00:29:50,445 --> 00:29:55,605
Speaker 2: a pylon or backlash or outrage culture. But I think

539
00:29:55,605 --> 00:29:57,805
Speaker 2: a pylon is probably the best description of what it

540
00:29:57,845 --> 00:30:01,085
Speaker 2: feels like when it happens to you. And it's very

541
00:30:01,085 --> 00:30:03,925
Speaker 2: different to criticism. I always try to explain that to

542
00:30:03,965 --> 00:30:08,925
Speaker 2: people that can be constructive. Criticism can always be helpful

543
00:30:09,005 --> 00:30:12,965
Speaker 2: and well meaning. But cancelation is such a horrible word

544
00:30:13,045 --> 00:30:19,365
Speaker 2: because it's so dehumanizing. It's so dehumanizing, like you cancel

545
00:30:19,405 --> 00:30:22,965
Speaker 2: a flight or you cancel a meeting. You don't cancel

546
00:30:23,045 --> 00:30:27,965
Speaker 2: a human being, And yet people try to because the

547
00:30:27,965 --> 00:30:30,565
Speaker 2: thing is that you can reschedule a flight or a meeting,

548
00:30:30,605 --> 00:30:33,885
Speaker 2: but there's no formal process for being uncanceled, and that's

549
00:30:33,925 --> 00:30:35,805
Speaker 2: kind of the point to it, to delete you as

550
00:30:35,845 --> 00:30:40,045
Speaker 2: a person, which is just so awful. And the other

551
00:30:40,085 --> 00:30:42,205
Speaker 2: thing about that word is how it's applied to such

552
00:30:42,205 --> 00:30:44,365
Speaker 2: a wide range of people, for such a wide range

553
00:30:44,405 --> 00:30:47,885
Speaker 2: of things. So like everyone from Harvey Weinstein, who was

554
00:30:47,925 --> 00:30:51,765
Speaker 2: actually a serial rapist who went to jail for his crimes,

555
00:30:52,365 --> 00:30:54,925
Speaker 2: to someone who used a word that maybe they didn't

556
00:30:54,965 --> 00:30:58,525
Speaker 2: realize was no longer acceptable because I don't know, they're

557
00:30:58,525 --> 00:31:02,005
Speaker 2: seventy years old, or maybe they just don't mix in kind.

558
00:31:01,805 --> 00:31:04,325
Speaker 1: Of woke circles. So I guess with.

559
00:31:04,365 --> 00:31:07,445
Speaker 2: Cancelation, the big difference to me, besides the fact that

560
00:31:07,485 --> 00:31:11,285
Speaker 2: Harvey Weinstein committed actual crime, is that he didn't do

561
00:31:11,325 --> 00:31:14,565
Speaker 2: them by accident, and the person who used the wrong

562
00:31:14,605 --> 00:31:17,765
Speaker 2: word probably wasn't trying to cause harm. You know. I

563
00:31:17,805 --> 00:31:21,405
Speaker 2: know this is general, but in most cases when someone's canceled,

564
00:31:22,245 --> 00:31:26,565
Speaker 2: they didn't intend to be offensive or cause harm. And

565
00:31:26,605 --> 00:31:28,445
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that they didn't offend people and they

566
00:31:28,445 --> 00:31:32,845
Speaker 2: didn't cause harm. But cancelation is the total flattening of

567
00:31:32,925 --> 00:31:37,005
Speaker 2: intention and effect. So that's kind of how I've come

568
00:31:37,045 --> 00:31:39,405
Speaker 2: to understand it. How do you think of cancelation?

569
00:31:40,005 --> 00:31:43,165
Speaker 1: I love that so much, I think, and I'll just

570
00:31:43,205 --> 00:31:46,725
Speaker 1: say this as well, even when you think of Harvey Weinstein, right,

571
00:31:46,845 --> 00:31:52,685
Speaker 1: he still received due process. Right, he did still receive

572
00:31:52,885 --> 00:31:56,125
Speaker 1: due process. So I asked that question, and it's a

573
00:31:56,205 --> 00:31:58,245
Speaker 1: question that I now ask a lot of people because

574
00:31:58,245 --> 00:32:02,325
Speaker 1: I genuinely believe that a lot of the posarization that

575
00:32:02,325 --> 00:32:05,645
Speaker 1: we continued to experience and just never getting anywhere in

576
00:32:05,685 --> 00:32:10,325
Speaker 1: conversation is because we have definition issues. If I think

577
00:32:11,285 --> 00:32:16,725
Speaker 1: cancelation is simply accountability and allowing for people to see

578
00:32:16,765 --> 00:32:19,285
Speaker 1: the harm that they've done so they can take responsibility

579
00:32:19,325 --> 00:32:22,605
Speaker 1: for their actions, sure I would be on board with

580
00:32:22,645 --> 00:32:26,365
Speaker 1: that too if that was actually true. But if another person,

581
00:32:26,925 --> 00:32:29,245
Speaker 1: and I'm the other person in this case, if another

582
00:32:29,285 --> 00:32:34,565
Speaker 1: person believes that cancelation is a combination of public shaming, pylons,

583
00:32:35,445 --> 00:32:39,925
Speaker 1: virtual stoning, that it's doxing, that it's anti social behavior,

584
00:32:40,005 --> 00:32:44,125
Speaker 1: it's cyberbullying, then we're working with completely different definitions, so

585
00:32:44,205 --> 00:32:47,085
Speaker 1: we'll never agree on what it is. So I always

586
00:32:47,645 --> 00:32:51,165
Speaker 1: like to ask people how they do define it after

587
00:32:51,245 --> 00:32:53,725
Speaker 1: having studied this for the past five to six years

588
00:32:53,725 --> 00:32:57,285
Speaker 1: and really understanding the nature of cancel culture, which I

589
00:32:57,325 --> 00:33:00,605
Speaker 1: prefer to call it collective sabotage. And the reason I

590
00:33:00,725 --> 00:33:03,485
Speaker 1: do that is because I've been studying self sabotage for

591
00:33:03,525 --> 00:33:07,285
Speaker 1: the past eight years. Self sabotage being and this is

592
00:33:07,285 --> 00:33:09,485
Speaker 1: how I describe it in the book. When you are

593
00:33:09,525 --> 00:33:12,245
Speaker 1: the one poking holes in your own ship when what

594
00:33:12,365 --> 00:33:15,205
Speaker 1: it is that you say you want is in direct

595
00:33:15,325 --> 00:33:18,645
Speaker 1: conflict with your behavior. You're saying you want progress, but

596
00:33:18,685 --> 00:33:23,045
Speaker 1: you're using extremely regressive methods to get there, you know,

597
00:33:23,725 --> 00:33:26,405
Speaker 1: and you're pulling the plug on your own cause. So

598
00:33:26,485 --> 00:33:29,045
Speaker 1: when you have individuals that are already in a state

599
00:33:29,125 --> 00:33:32,285
Speaker 1: of self sabotage and then we come together as a collective,

600
00:33:32,765 --> 00:33:36,765
Speaker 1: we're quite literally acting against our own best interest. Because

601
00:33:36,805 --> 00:33:39,165
Speaker 1: if you are part of a mob and you get

602
00:33:39,205 --> 00:33:43,605
Speaker 1: your exhilaration and fire and charge from that, you better

603
00:33:43,645 --> 00:33:45,685
Speaker 1: believe that same mob is going to come after you

604
00:33:45,765 --> 00:33:49,645
Speaker 1: the moment you get any step out of line, and

605
00:33:49,725 --> 00:33:51,565
Speaker 1: the same thing will happen to you. But we don't

606
00:33:51,565 --> 00:33:54,125
Speaker 1: think that far. We have very sort of short term

607
00:33:54,245 --> 00:34:01,645
Speaker 1: thinking in this mindset. So for me, I haven't been canceled,

608
00:34:01,685 --> 00:34:06,205
Speaker 1: whether it's in my open less or my work from then. Sure,

609
00:34:06,325 --> 00:34:10,205
Speaker 1: I've had people. I remember someone at and I thought

610
00:34:10,205 --> 00:34:14,285
Speaker 1: this was so hilarious. I think it's when I wrote

611
00:34:14,285 --> 00:34:18,085
Speaker 1: my open letter, and then this woman sent me. She

612
00:34:18,125 --> 00:34:20,405
Speaker 1: was a black American woman. She sent me this long

613
00:34:20,805 --> 00:34:24,525
Speaker 1: email about how she's been following my work for such

614
00:34:24,565 --> 00:34:27,965
Speaker 1: a long time, and she's so disappointed that I have

615
00:34:28,085 --> 00:34:30,765
Speaker 1: decided to become a bed wench for the white man.

616
00:34:31,365 --> 00:34:39,645
Speaker 2: And I wow, a bed wench for the white man. Wow,

617
00:34:40,125 --> 00:34:42,325
Speaker 2: what an insult. It's very creative.

618
00:34:42,325 --> 00:34:45,685
Speaker 1: It's seen how much I was laughing. I could not

619
00:34:45,885 --> 00:34:49,245
Speaker 1: stop cracking up. I was like, that takes time to

620
00:34:49,405 --> 00:34:53,845
Speaker 1: write an email, and it was very well listened to. Honestly,

621
00:34:53,885 --> 00:34:57,325
Speaker 1: I've never received any sort of trolling or any cancelation,

622
00:34:57,525 --> 00:34:59,845
Speaker 1: or any call outs or anything like that. And I

623
00:34:59,885 --> 00:35:02,605
Speaker 1: think it's because when you actually read my open letter,

624
00:35:02,885 --> 00:35:05,245
Speaker 1: it's very easy to see the word wokeness on the

625
00:35:05,285 --> 00:35:07,765
Speaker 1: title and to make so many assumptions about what will

626
00:35:07,805 --> 00:35:10,165
Speaker 1: be in there. But I think I'm quite fair, so

627
00:35:10,245 --> 00:35:14,125
Speaker 1: I've never experienced cancelation. And I think it's because this

628
00:35:14,325 --> 00:35:15,925
Speaker 1: kind of like a mindset thing. And it might sound

629
00:35:16,005 --> 00:35:18,885
Speaker 1: really abstract, but I think there's something about it. Even

630
00:35:18,925 --> 00:35:22,885
Speaker 1: happens with bullies in the playground, right. If you show fear,

631
00:35:23,085 --> 00:35:26,205
Speaker 1: you become more attractive. That's just how it works. If

632
00:35:26,205 --> 00:35:28,925
Speaker 1: you don't allow for your convictions to be shown. And

633
00:35:28,965 --> 00:35:31,925
Speaker 1: I'm very good at being convicted, but I'm still open,

634
00:35:32,045 --> 00:35:36,325
Speaker 1: I'm still very warm. I'm not cynical. I am able

635
00:35:36,365 --> 00:35:38,885
Speaker 1: to look at things differently if someone offers me new

636
00:35:38,925 --> 00:35:42,125
Speaker 1: information that I wasn't aware of. So I think my

637
00:35:42,245 --> 00:35:45,445
Speaker 1: open letter served as a point of just relief for

638
00:35:45,565 --> 00:35:50,045
Speaker 1: so many people, especially other racialized people, who didn't know

639
00:35:50,525 --> 00:35:53,285
Speaker 1: that they could or who had forgotten rather that they

640
00:35:53,285 --> 00:35:55,405
Speaker 1: could ask questions that they can say I don't agree

641
00:35:55,445 --> 00:35:55,725
Speaker 1: with that.

642
00:35:55,925 --> 00:35:57,925
Speaker 2: Or I agree with parts of it, but there are

643
00:35:57,965 --> 00:36:00,965
Speaker 2: other parts I'm not willing to sign up for.

644
00:36:01,285 --> 00:36:03,645
Speaker 1: That's exactly it, to say this works for me, but

645
00:36:03,725 --> 00:36:05,445
Speaker 1: this doesn't quite work for me, you know.

646
00:36:06,245 --> 00:36:08,325
Speaker 2: Or I'm unclear about that. I see it in a

647
00:36:08,365 --> 00:36:10,685
Speaker 2: more nuanced war exactly.

648
00:36:11,085 --> 00:36:14,285
Speaker 1: And also for people that have been racialized as white,

649
00:36:14,325 --> 00:36:17,085
Speaker 1: that were made to believe that they have this original

650
00:36:17,165 --> 00:36:20,405
Speaker 1: sin that they need to I just don't believe in

651
00:36:20,445 --> 00:36:22,325
Speaker 1: any of that. I just won't stand for it. And

652
00:36:22,565 --> 00:36:25,765
Speaker 1: I think it just offered as a point of relief

653
00:36:25,845 --> 00:36:30,485
Speaker 1: for people. And I think because of my genuine curiosity,

654
00:36:30,565 --> 00:36:34,965
Speaker 1: but also my expertise as a developmental coach, as a researcher,

655
00:36:35,085 --> 00:36:38,245
Speaker 1: as a consultant, as a writer, it's allowed me to

656
00:36:38,285 --> 00:36:42,125
Speaker 1: continue exploring the conversation in a way that isn't sensationalized.

657
00:36:42,245 --> 00:36:44,685
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not doing this so I can be

658
00:36:44,765 --> 00:36:47,685
Speaker 1: a talking head, So I can kind of, as we

659
00:36:47,685 --> 00:36:50,685
Speaker 1: were saying before, hone in on just one thing. So

660
00:36:50,925 --> 00:36:54,765
Speaker 1: I'm not anti woke, for example. I haven't made anti

661
00:36:54,805 --> 00:36:57,685
Speaker 1: woke my identity and sort of become like a caricature

662
00:36:57,725 --> 00:37:00,245
Speaker 1: of myself. That's not what I'm doing. So I think

663
00:37:00,405 --> 00:37:03,765
Speaker 1: my work is easily received by people because they can

664
00:37:03,845 --> 00:37:07,565
Speaker 1: feel that it's not some kind of what's the term.

665
00:37:07,405 --> 00:37:12,685
Speaker 2: For this, Well, you're not scolding people. It's not about scolding.

666
00:37:12,925 --> 00:37:17,485
Speaker 2: It's about it's about refusing to be part of a

667
00:37:17,485 --> 00:37:23,405
Speaker 2: polarized system who insists that you pledge complete allegiance to

668
00:37:23,525 --> 00:37:29,085
Speaker 2: a particular team. Yes, after this break, I'm going to

669
00:37:29,125 --> 00:37:32,365
Speaker 2: ask Africa about this current moment in the news and

670
00:37:32,525 --> 00:37:36,645
Speaker 2: how it's playing out on social media. And I'll be honest,

671
00:37:36,965 --> 00:37:39,565
Speaker 2: this is the part of the conversation I'm most nervous

672
00:37:39,565 --> 00:37:47,285
Speaker 2: about Africa. Since October seventh last year, we've seen a

673
00:37:47,325 --> 00:37:50,645
Speaker 2: similar situation play out on social media as we saw

674
00:37:50,765 --> 00:37:54,685
Speaker 2: after George Floyd's death, in that the world's been really

675
00:37:54,725 --> 00:37:58,965
Speaker 2: shocked and really distressed by truly horrific news and images

676
00:37:59,365 --> 00:38:01,685
Speaker 2: of the war in the Middle East, and there has

677
00:38:01,725 --> 00:38:04,685
Speaker 2: been a similar attempt by some people to kind of

678
00:38:04,725 --> 00:38:09,565
Speaker 2: police what isn't isn't being posted about the war, just

679
00:38:09,605 --> 00:38:12,325
Speaker 2: as the black square turned out to be, I guess,

680
00:38:12,365 --> 00:38:15,805
Speaker 2: an imperfect expression of solidarity with Black Lives Matter.

681
00:38:16,485 --> 00:38:16,965
Speaker 1: We saw a.

682
00:38:16,885 --> 00:38:20,165
Speaker 2: Similar phenomenon a couple of months ago where in a

683
00:38:20,205 --> 00:38:23,925
Speaker 2: twenty four hour period, millions of people on social media

684
00:38:23,965 --> 00:38:27,485
Speaker 2: all around the world posted that image with the words

685
00:38:27,565 --> 00:38:31,445
Speaker 2: all eyes on RAFA to show their support for Palestinian civilians.

686
00:38:32,245 --> 00:38:34,525
Speaker 2: And at the time there was a lot of surveillance

687
00:38:34,565 --> 00:38:37,605
Speaker 2: around who had and who hadn't posted it, and then

688
00:38:37,645 --> 00:38:41,525
Speaker 2: it emerged that the image had been generated by AI,

689
00:38:41,765 --> 00:38:45,565
Speaker 2: So then people started yelling about that. And meanwhile the

690
00:38:45,605 --> 00:38:48,325
Speaker 2: war continues and Palestinian people are still being killed and

691
00:38:48,325 --> 00:38:51,205
Speaker 2: the hostages are still being held. And then some people

692
00:38:51,205 --> 00:38:53,405
Speaker 2: believe if you don't post about those things, then that

693
00:38:53,485 --> 00:38:57,605
Speaker 2: means that you don't care, so they start questioning other

694
00:38:57,605 --> 00:39:01,445
Speaker 2: people's humanity. Right, how did you read that moment when

695
00:39:01,445 --> 00:39:05,045
Speaker 2: everyone was posting and then deleting that tile about raffa.

696
00:39:05,085 --> 00:39:08,725
Speaker 1: Gosh, and thank you for bringing that up. I can

697
00:39:08,765 --> 00:39:11,245
Speaker 1: imagine that so many people listening will resonate with that.

698
00:39:11,605 --> 00:39:13,805
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about this is that even if someone

699
00:39:13,965 --> 00:39:16,045
Speaker 1: is listening to this in six months time or a

700
00:39:16,125 --> 00:39:19,085
Speaker 1: year or two years, three years, there's going to be something.

701
00:39:19,245 --> 00:39:21,725
Speaker 1: It's going to be something that is happening culturally that

702
00:39:21,805 --> 00:39:25,805
Speaker 1: will be very reminiscent of this. Always something, And that's

703
00:39:25,805 --> 00:39:27,445
Speaker 1: what I like to keep in mind, by the way,

704
00:39:27,485 --> 00:39:30,485
Speaker 1: and I would invite anyone listening to this or watching

705
00:39:30,525 --> 00:39:32,565
Speaker 1: to keep that in mind too, that there's always going

706
00:39:32,605 --> 00:39:35,885
Speaker 1: to be something. Try and notice the patterns in terms

707
00:39:35,965 --> 00:39:38,685
Speaker 1: of how you're expected to respond and the time in

708
00:39:38,725 --> 00:39:41,645
Speaker 1: which you're expected to respond. So for me, when I

709
00:39:41,685 --> 00:39:46,125
Speaker 1: saw that, exactly as you said, it was like immediate flashbacks.

710
00:39:46,485 --> 00:39:51,245
Speaker 1: It was the same mechanics, same mechanics. This thing comes out,

711
00:39:51,605 --> 00:39:54,765
Speaker 1: no one asks where it's from in terms of its origin. Again,

712
00:39:54,885 --> 00:39:59,965
Speaker 1: we do need urgently actually more media literacy for people

713
00:40:00,005 --> 00:40:02,845
Speaker 1: wondering where things are actually coming from and who are

714
00:40:02,845 --> 00:40:05,525
Speaker 1: they coming from, because again, things just come out and

715
00:40:05,565 --> 00:40:09,285
Speaker 1: we see, we tend to see a number Okay, twan

716
00:40:09,365 --> 00:40:11,605
Speaker 1: and people have shared this. Ten thousand people have shared this,

717
00:40:11,645 --> 00:40:13,885
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand people have shared that means

718
00:40:13,965 --> 00:40:16,805
Speaker 1: I should also be sharing because there is that thing

719
00:40:16,885 --> 00:40:20,045
Speaker 1: where it's contagious. We don't ask any questions. We just

720
00:40:20,165 --> 00:40:23,685
Speaker 1: trust that the data being higher means that it's the

721
00:40:23,765 --> 00:40:26,005
Speaker 1: right thing that we need to be sharing. And for

722
00:40:26,085 --> 00:40:29,005
Speaker 1: many reasons it could have been because exactly as you said,

723
00:40:29,485 --> 00:40:31,805
Speaker 1: it makes people aware of what is going on. So

724
00:40:31,845 --> 00:40:34,765
Speaker 1: I understand that awareness peace offered in terms of that

725
00:40:34,805 --> 00:40:39,525
Speaker 1: being an objective. But within twenty four hours, actually people

726
00:40:39,525 --> 00:40:44,125
Speaker 1: were already being shamed for posting it exact same as

727
00:40:44,125 --> 00:40:48,565
Speaker 1: the black square, the exact same thing. To a t

728
00:40:48,885 --> 00:40:52,765
Speaker 1: it is uncanny, right, And then now people are feeling

729
00:40:52,965 --> 00:40:55,605
Speaker 1: ashamed of being like, do I delete it? But if

730
00:40:55,645 --> 00:40:57,765
Speaker 1: I delete it, people might see that I've deleted it

731
00:40:58,165 --> 00:41:01,525
Speaker 1: becomes a whole thing. But then for me, the biggest

732
00:41:01,525 --> 00:41:05,685
Speaker 1: thing is and this is why I remember recording a

733
00:41:05,725 --> 00:41:09,285
Speaker 1: specific podcast episode on this maybe three four years ago,

734
00:41:09,445 --> 00:41:11,405
Speaker 1: on why you don't have to speak up on every

735
00:41:11,445 --> 00:41:15,565
Speaker 1: social issue, and it all rings true today. This idea

736
00:41:15,845 --> 00:41:19,445
Speaker 1: that every single thing people are doing or thinking they

737
00:41:19,445 --> 00:41:22,965
Speaker 1: are putting online is something that we need to realize

738
00:41:23,165 --> 00:41:28,685
Speaker 1: is very, very very limiting. In many ways, someone could

739
00:41:28,685 --> 00:41:31,285
Speaker 1: have been marching for the past ten months, you know,

740
00:41:31,405 --> 00:41:35,085
Speaker 1: in their hometown or sending letters to their local MP

741
00:41:35,925 --> 00:41:40,325
Speaker 1: or donating hundreds, maybe even thousands, maybe even more. Some

742
00:41:40,365 --> 00:41:43,605
Speaker 1: people are having real world conversations. Some people are actually

743
00:41:43,765 --> 00:41:47,485
Speaker 1: holding people who are being harmed by this every single day.

744
00:41:47,845 --> 00:41:50,445
Speaker 1: Some people are seeing what they can do in their community.

745
00:41:50,805 --> 00:41:53,205
Speaker 1: Some people are making phone calls. Some people are dealing

746
00:41:53,245 --> 00:41:56,605
Speaker 1: with another war happening in their country, another reality we

747
00:41:56,645 --> 00:41:59,005
Speaker 1: have to accept. And again this is just opening up

748
00:41:59,085 --> 00:42:02,325
Speaker 1: the nuance in the grave for people to understand that

749
00:42:02,365 --> 00:42:05,525
Speaker 1: things are not as simple as oh, if this person posts,

750
00:42:05,565 --> 00:42:07,445
Speaker 1: then that shows that they care. That shows that they're

751
00:42:07,485 --> 00:42:10,965
Speaker 1: doing something. Because I could post an infographic from bed

752
00:42:11,165 --> 00:42:13,205
Speaker 1: and not even really care, but just post it to

753
00:42:13,525 --> 00:42:16,605
Speaker 1: say that I've done something. I think it's such a shame.

754
00:42:16,845 --> 00:42:19,005
Speaker 1: It's such a shame that we have come to this

755
00:42:19,085 --> 00:42:22,765
Speaker 1: point where we believe that if someone doesn't post something

756
00:42:23,125 --> 00:42:25,565
Speaker 1: quite literally by the way, that something could be anything.

757
00:42:25,765 --> 00:42:27,645
Speaker 1: There's never any detail on what it could be. It

758
00:42:27,685 --> 00:42:30,805
Speaker 1: could be anything doesn't even have to actually be a

759
00:42:30,885 --> 00:42:35,005
Speaker 1: link that sends maybe something more tangible to where the

760
00:42:35,045 --> 00:42:37,765
Speaker 1: conflict is happening. It could be anything. It could be

761
00:42:37,805 --> 00:42:40,685
Speaker 1: a photo, it could be a slide, it could be

762
00:42:40,845 --> 00:42:46,565
Speaker 1: just one word. People prefer the performance more than whether

763
00:42:46,645 --> 00:42:51,445
Speaker 1: something is actually changing fundamentally, because I think where in

764
00:42:51,565 --> 00:42:54,365
Speaker 1: such a trance when we're online that we don't even

765
00:42:54,525 --> 00:42:57,685
Speaker 1: think that people could be doing something else that isn't posting.

766
00:42:57,845 --> 00:43:02,005
Speaker 2: You know, what's the reason for that, Because it's not everybody,

767
00:43:02,045 --> 00:43:05,405
Speaker 2: but the people who speak loudest online often around these

768
00:43:05,445 --> 00:43:09,045
Speaker 2: things have become like vigilantes. It's like there's self appointed

769
00:43:09,085 --> 00:43:14,165
Speaker 2: shareefs of the internet surveiling what everyone else is posting

770
00:43:14,485 --> 00:43:18,005
Speaker 2: and calling out people that they think are posting not

771
00:43:18,165 --> 00:43:20,245
Speaker 2: in the right amount or not in the right way.

772
00:43:21,245 --> 00:43:22,445
Speaker 2: Isn't narcissism?

773
00:43:22,485 --> 00:43:23,325
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they.

774
00:43:23,245 --> 00:43:25,525
Speaker 2: Think they're doing the right thing. Do they actually think

775
00:43:25,605 --> 00:43:29,445
Speaker 2: that what they're doing by centering themselves and shouting at

776
00:43:29,485 --> 00:43:33,805
Speaker 2: everybody else is helping or is it just that they

777
00:43:33,885 --> 00:43:37,805
Speaker 2: get sort of addicted to the attention or the head rush?

778
00:43:37,845 --> 00:43:40,445
Speaker 2: I mean back in the day when I used to

779
00:43:40,445 --> 00:43:43,365
Speaker 2: be a lot more outraged online, there is a bit

780
00:43:43,405 --> 00:43:45,925
Speaker 2: of a head rush, as you spoke about before, about

781
00:43:46,125 --> 00:43:48,525
Speaker 2: when everyone agrees with you and you get lots of

782
00:43:48,805 --> 00:43:52,605
Speaker 2: likes and you go girl kinds of comments. Is that

783
00:43:52,725 --> 00:43:56,645
Speaker 2: why there's just this intolerance for nuance because being extreme

784
00:43:56,765 --> 00:43:58,685
Speaker 2: gets more collapse. To me.

785
00:43:59,565 --> 00:44:01,765
Speaker 1: I don't have one answer, but I think it can

786
00:44:01,805 --> 00:44:04,605
Speaker 1: be a combination of different things. I find that a

787
00:44:04,645 --> 00:44:08,005
Speaker 1: lot of the time, when we find it so difficult

788
00:44:08,125 --> 00:44:11,645
Speaker 1: to hold our own contradictions, we just won't be able

789
00:44:11,645 --> 00:44:14,565
Speaker 1: to hold other people's. That's just that's actually just the

790
00:44:14,565 --> 00:44:19,125
Speaker 1: reality of it. Because if I can't see myself as

791
00:44:19,805 --> 00:44:24,925
Speaker 1: both good and bad, as both manipulative but also very thoughtful,

792
00:44:24,965 --> 00:44:27,685
Speaker 1: but also very kind, but I can also be very rageful,

793
00:44:27,765 --> 00:44:30,045
Speaker 1: I can also be very impatient, but I can also

794
00:44:30,085 --> 00:44:33,165
Speaker 1: be very sweet, and I can also be ground. If

795
00:44:33,205 --> 00:44:35,645
Speaker 1: I can't see all of those things about myself, and

796
00:44:35,845 --> 00:44:39,685
Speaker 1: especially be able to name the shadowy parts of myself,

797
00:44:39,965 --> 00:44:42,405
Speaker 1: I will never be able to do that about someone else.

798
00:44:42,485 --> 00:44:46,005
Speaker 1: I just won't. And even worse, if I then encounter

799
00:44:46,205 --> 00:44:50,725
Speaker 1: someone who's able to hold those truths about themselves, they

800
00:44:50,765 --> 00:44:53,445
Speaker 1: will always be a trigger for me. So something that

801
00:44:53,485 --> 00:44:55,925
Speaker 1: I always think about it in the context of self

802
00:44:55,965 --> 00:44:59,645
Speaker 1: censorship is that when you become very well trained at

803
00:44:59,685 --> 00:45:03,085
Speaker 1: censoring yourself, you will find people that are not just

804
00:45:03,285 --> 00:45:06,605
Speaker 1: uncensored to the extreme, but people that allow themselves to

805
00:45:06,685 --> 00:45:08,965
Speaker 1: actually speak their minds, or to ask questions or say

806
00:45:08,965 --> 00:45:10,525
Speaker 1: I don't know agree with that, or to say I

807
00:45:10,565 --> 00:45:12,405
Speaker 1: know everyone agrees with this, but this is what I

808
00:45:12,445 --> 00:45:15,365
Speaker 1: think you will feel. That it's actually a threat to

809
00:45:15,405 --> 00:45:18,365
Speaker 1: your sense of self and it's very illogical, but it's

810
00:45:18,445 --> 00:45:23,965
Speaker 1: people feeling like your worldview isn't actually just yours. It's

811
00:45:24,045 --> 00:45:27,085
Speaker 1: now a threat on my sense of self. So I

812
00:45:27,125 --> 00:45:30,205
Speaker 1: have to do everything I can to take it down

813
00:45:30,245 --> 00:45:33,405
Speaker 1: and to somehow give you mine so then I'm safe.

814
00:45:33,645 --> 00:45:36,005
Speaker 2: You're right. So when I was a couple of years ago,

815
00:45:36,045 --> 00:45:38,205
Speaker 2: I was diagnosed with ADHD and I wrote about it,

816
00:45:38,245 --> 00:45:42,325
Speaker 2: and I wrote about how there was nothing good about

817
00:45:42,325 --> 00:45:44,925
Speaker 2: it for me, like it had only made my life harder.

818
00:45:45,805 --> 00:45:52,525
Speaker 2: And there was huge pushback from the neurodivergent community saying,

819
00:45:52,565 --> 00:45:55,005
Speaker 2: you can't say, how very dare you say that? You're

820
00:45:55,045 --> 00:45:56,765
Speaker 2: not allowed to say that. You've got to be a

821
00:45:56,885 --> 00:45:59,445
Speaker 2: role model for young people. And of course there were

822
00:45:59,485 --> 00:46:02,645
Speaker 2: other people saying, oh, thank god, I'm so glad you've

823
00:46:02,645 --> 00:46:04,205
Speaker 2: said it, because I said, I don't feel like it's

824
00:46:04,245 --> 00:46:07,245
Speaker 2: my superpower. Maybe some people feel like it's their superpower.

825
00:46:07,485 --> 00:46:09,965
Speaker 2: I don't feel like it's my superpower, Like it's made

826
00:46:09,965 --> 00:46:11,605
Speaker 2: my life harder. I wish I could give it back.

827
00:46:12,285 --> 00:46:15,725
Speaker 2: But I had strayed from the party line and this

828
00:46:16,245 --> 00:46:19,165
Speaker 2: orthodoxy of no, you can only.

829
00:46:18,925 --> 00:46:21,365
Speaker 1: Be positive about it, right.

830
00:46:21,325 --> 00:46:23,485
Speaker 2: And I was I agree. I just went, well, no,

831
00:46:23,645 --> 00:46:25,365
Speaker 2: forget it, like I'm not interested in that.

832
00:46:25,845 --> 00:46:31,125
Speaker 1: That's that's exactly it. It's like it's group think essentially. Yeah,

833
00:46:31,245 --> 00:46:34,365
Speaker 1: this idea that we only have safety if we all

834
00:46:34,485 --> 00:46:37,685
Speaker 1: think the same way, and anything that gets in that

835
00:46:37,765 --> 00:46:40,325
Speaker 1: opposes that is a threat and we have to get

836
00:46:40,405 --> 00:46:40,885
Speaker 1: rid of it.

837
00:46:42,885 --> 00:46:45,805
Speaker 2: It feels like a threat, right, because what people, I

838
00:46:45,845 --> 00:46:48,085
Speaker 2: think often miss is that the people who are most

839
00:46:48,285 --> 00:46:50,805
Speaker 2: likely to cancel you, or who are most likely to

840
00:46:50,845 --> 00:46:53,245
Speaker 2: call you out or pile on you or whatever, are

841
00:46:53,285 --> 00:46:56,965
Speaker 2: people who you are ideologically very similar with. They're part

842
00:46:57,005 --> 00:47:01,005
Speaker 2: of the people that you agree with most things. Yes,

843
00:47:01,205 --> 00:47:03,565
Speaker 2: Whereas I once spoke to someone who is like a

844
00:47:04,005 --> 00:47:07,765
Speaker 2: very right wing commentator and I was asking her, oh,

845
00:47:07,805 --> 00:47:09,965
Speaker 2: do you get a whole lot of shit from these

846
00:47:09,965 --> 00:47:12,245
Speaker 2: particular people on the left who like to cancel me,

847
00:47:12,645 --> 00:47:15,365
Speaker 2: And she's like, oh, no, they completely ignore me. I

848
00:47:15,485 --> 00:47:18,405
Speaker 2: get it from the right. So she got canceled from

849
00:47:18,405 --> 00:47:20,765
Speaker 2: the right, and the right leaves me alone. I get

850
00:47:20,805 --> 00:47:24,965
Speaker 2: canceled from the left. Gosh, why is that, why do

851
00:47:25,045 --> 00:47:28,245
Speaker 2: we cancel people that are more likely to cancel people

852
00:47:28,245 --> 00:47:29,605
Speaker 2: that are most like us.

853
00:47:29,925 --> 00:47:33,925
Speaker 1: It's like, to me, that's just tribalism. I always laugh

854
00:47:33,965 --> 00:47:37,005
Speaker 1: at how we think. Because we wear clothes now and

855
00:47:37,085 --> 00:47:39,845
Speaker 1: we have all of this technology whatever, we can override

856
00:47:39,925 --> 00:47:43,205
Speaker 1: our primal nature, but it's never going to go anywhere,

857
00:47:43,245 --> 00:47:47,085
Speaker 1: and we are tribal creatures. There was definitely a point

858
00:47:47,125 --> 00:47:50,125
Speaker 1: in time where if you stray from the tribe, whether

859
00:47:50,165 --> 00:47:54,365
Speaker 1: it's through actual action or thought, there's danger. There's danger

860
00:47:54,405 --> 00:47:56,925
Speaker 1: if you are cast out by the tribe, you will

861
00:47:56,925 --> 00:47:59,885
Speaker 1: be dead, you know, within a few hours. So I

862
00:47:59,925 --> 00:48:02,965
Speaker 1: think we still have that biological wiring, and I write

863
00:48:03,005 --> 00:48:06,085
Speaker 1: about it in the third perspective. We need to understand

864
00:48:06,085 --> 00:48:08,645
Speaker 1: our biology and our human nature so we can see

865
00:48:08,645 --> 00:48:12,725
Speaker 1: it at place because we will always have that thing

866
00:48:12,885 --> 00:48:16,765
Speaker 1: where our safety is determined by the people around us.

867
00:48:17,365 --> 00:48:21,285
Speaker 1: And that also means intellectual safety. Right. I can't feel

868
00:48:21,325 --> 00:48:23,045
Speaker 1: that safe if I don't know where to place you.

869
00:48:23,165 --> 00:48:27,325
Speaker 1: That's why I think identity has its uses, because it's

870
00:48:27,325 --> 00:48:30,365
Speaker 1: not about getting rid of identity completely. It just allows

871
00:48:30,405 --> 00:48:33,045
Speaker 1: us for us to understand each other. Even someone saying

872
00:48:33,085 --> 00:48:35,605
Speaker 1: I'm British, I'm Zimbabwe, I'm Australian, I'm this, and that

873
00:48:35,645 --> 00:48:38,085
Speaker 1: it gives you an idea, and that gives you a

874
00:48:38,085 --> 00:48:41,125
Speaker 1: bit of safety. Whereas when you don't know someone's name,

875
00:48:41,525 --> 00:48:43,965
Speaker 1: or their age, or where they're from or who they

876
00:48:44,005 --> 00:48:46,565
Speaker 1: actually are, How can I trust you when I don't

877
00:48:46,565 --> 00:48:49,325
Speaker 1: actually know you? So we take that a step further

878
00:48:49,405 --> 00:48:52,525
Speaker 1: with ideology, How can I trust you when you don't

879
00:48:52,645 --> 00:48:56,845
Speaker 1: think and feel exactly like me? So where I have

880
00:48:56,925 --> 00:49:00,765
Speaker 1: a lot of empathy and compassion actually for all of

881
00:49:00,765 --> 00:49:05,205
Speaker 1: this is that asking people to face their discomfort when

882
00:49:05,205 --> 00:49:09,245
Speaker 1: they're confronted with a different worldview, etc. It's a very unnatural.

883
00:49:09,965 --> 00:49:13,205
Speaker 1: It's a very unnatural thing to ask someone to hold

884
00:49:13,285 --> 00:49:17,205
Speaker 1: that contradiction and for it to not feel completely threatening.

885
00:49:17,565 --> 00:49:20,285
Speaker 1: But that is our work to do as people, to

886
00:49:20,445 --> 00:49:23,845
Speaker 1: surround ourselves not to an extreme, because this is why

887
00:49:23,885 --> 00:49:25,565
Speaker 1: people have to say, well, so what I should just

888
00:49:25,645 --> 00:49:27,925
Speaker 1: be friends with biggots and white supremacy? Why do we

889
00:49:27,965 --> 00:49:31,125
Speaker 1: have to go to those extremes. There are many things

890
00:49:31,165 --> 00:49:34,205
Speaker 1: in which you disagree with someone else on, but we're

891
00:49:34,245 --> 00:49:37,085
Speaker 1: building such a level of intolerance where even with the

892
00:49:37,125 --> 00:49:41,725
Speaker 1: most basic things people can't deal with it anymore. You know,

893
00:49:42,485 --> 00:49:43,805
Speaker 1: that's so true.

894
00:49:44,285 --> 00:49:48,845
Speaker 2: Just finally, Africa, your wonderful book. The third perspective, the

895
00:49:48,885 --> 00:49:53,045
Speaker 2: subtitle is Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. I

896
00:49:53,085 --> 00:49:55,565
Speaker 2: want to ask you about intolerance and why you think

897
00:49:55,605 --> 00:49:58,125
Speaker 2: we've become so intolerant, because I've worked in media for

898
00:49:58,165 --> 00:50:01,725
Speaker 2: thirty years and it used to be just understood that

899
00:50:01,845 --> 00:50:04,845
Speaker 2: you could disagree with someone, right, I don't agree with

900
00:50:04,925 --> 00:50:07,765
Speaker 2: your opinion. I don't agree with that story you published.

901
00:50:08,725 --> 00:50:12,645
Speaker 2: Now people have become so intolerant. It's I disagree with

902
00:50:12,725 --> 00:50:17,725
Speaker 2: your opinion. I'm unfollowing you, I am blocking you, or

903
00:50:17,965 --> 00:50:21,165
Speaker 2: I don't like that story. You need to take it down.

904
00:50:21,885 --> 00:50:24,605
Speaker 2: I can't handle that it even exists in the world.

905
00:50:25,685 --> 00:50:26,445
Speaker 1: What's that about?

906
00:50:26,525 --> 00:50:29,125
Speaker 2: Why have we become so completely intolerant?

907
00:50:29,765 --> 00:50:34,565
Speaker 1: Gosh? So I think that's a big question, and I'm

908
00:50:34,605 --> 00:50:36,445
Speaker 1: sure there's a big answer to it. But again, I

909
00:50:36,445 --> 00:50:38,405
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of different things, but I like

910
00:50:38,485 --> 00:50:41,445
Speaker 1: to kind of bring it back to the self, and

911
00:50:41,485 --> 00:50:43,285
Speaker 1: it's what I do in the book as well, because

912
00:50:43,285 --> 00:50:45,525
Speaker 1: I think these things can feel so big. Whether we're

913
00:50:45,525 --> 00:50:50,725
Speaker 1: talking about cancel culture, identity, politics, the politicization of absolutely

914
00:50:51,045 --> 00:50:54,525
Speaker 1: every single thing, even your food choices. It's political in

915
00:50:54,565 --> 00:50:57,925
Speaker 1: some way, even what you wear on your body, it's political?

916
00:50:58,005 --> 00:51:01,325
Speaker 1: Is it fast fashion? Is it you know, independent brands?

917
00:51:01,365 --> 00:51:05,525
Speaker 1: Who has more money to everything is political? But I think,

918
00:51:05,565 --> 00:51:08,845
Speaker 1: to me, the intolerance, there's kind of something and I

919
00:51:08,885 --> 00:51:11,725
Speaker 1: wonder what you but there's something sort of childlike about

920
00:51:11,765 --> 00:51:15,005
Speaker 1: it that everything is sort of me me, me. There's

921
00:51:15,005 --> 00:51:19,405
Speaker 1: been like an infantilization of people. People treating themselves like

922
00:51:19,845 --> 00:51:22,965
Speaker 1: sort of infants that need to be wrapped in cotton wool,

923
00:51:23,165 --> 00:51:26,405
Speaker 1: you know, in case something rubs onto them. So I

924
00:51:26,645 --> 00:51:29,845
Speaker 1: find that a way that I'm able to sort of

925
00:51:29,925 --> 00:51:32,325
Speaker 1: deal with this without it feeling so big is to

926
00:51:32,445 --> 00:51:36,845
Speaker 1: realize that I'm kind of dealing with sort of infants almost.

927
00:51:37,005 --> 00:51:38,725
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to let them run the show.

928
00:51:38,805 --> 00:51:40,325
Speaker 1: I'm not going to let them tell me what I

929
00:51:40,325 --> 00:51:42,485
Speaker 1: can say and not say. I'm not going to allow

930
00:51:42,565 --> 00:51:45,085
Speaker 1: for them to say you need to behave in this

931
00:51:45,205 --> 00:51:48,405
Speaker 1: way when a lot of the time it's people that

932
00:51:48,485 --> 00:51:51,645
Speaker 1: are so out of control in their personal lives, but

933
00:51:51,685 --> 00:51:54,445
Speaker 1: then they get this sense of control online. Now they

934
00:51:54,485 --> 00:51:57,925
Speaker 1: tell everyone else what to do. When you can barely

935
00:51:57,965 --> 00:52:00,685
Speaker 1: have a conversation with your own family, when you can

936
00:52:00,725 --> 00:52:03,285
Speaker 1: barely have a conversation with your partner or your sibling.

937
00:52:03,845 --> 00:52:05,485
Speaker 1: So I like to think of it in that way,

938
00:52:05,605 --> 00:52:09,325
Speaker 1: that it's people trying to gain a sense of control

939
00:52:09,565 --> 00:52:11,605
Speaker 1: they don't have in their own lives. So there's something

940
00:52:11,685 --> 00:52:14,005
Speaker 1: quite childlike. It's like a toddle.

941
00:52:14,125 --> 00:52:16,645
Speaker 2: That makes so much sense now I understand a couple

942
00:52:16,685 --> 00:52:18,965
Speaker 2: of people so much better. It's like a toddler stamping their.

943
00:52:18,805 --> 00:52:22,725
Speaker 1: Foot, absolutely absolutely, And I think you have to think

944
00:52:22,765 --> 00:52:24,525
Speaker 1: about it in that way, as in, how would you

945
00:52:24,605 --> 00:52:27,165
Speaker 1: respond to a toddler who is stamping their foot and

946
00:52:27,205 --> 00:52:29,925
Speaker 1: saying post this and do that and share this. Why

947
00:52:29,965 --> 00:52:32,485
Speaker 1: have you done that? It's insane.

948
00:52:33,205 --> 00:52:36,165
Speaker 2: You wouldn't be scared of them, you wouldn't listen to them.

949
00:52:36,245 --> 00:52:39,445
Speaker 1: So I think we need to sort of understand that

950
00:52:39,445 --> 00:52:42,325
Speaker 1: we're dealing with something a little bit unnatural here in

951
00:52:42,485 --> 00:52:44,965
Speaker 1: needing to lean in instead of leaning out of the

952
00:52:45,005 --> 00:52:48,165
Speaker 1: discomfort of being confronted with a different worldview or a

953
00:52:48,205 --> 00:52:51,445
Speaker 1: friend of yours changing their mind you know about something,

954
00:52:51,925 --> 00:52:53,525
Speaker 1: or saying, you know what, I used to agree with this,

955
00:52:53,605 --> 00:52:56,285
Speaker 1: but I don't actually agree with that so much anymore,

956
00:52:56,325 --> 00:52:58,765
Speaker 1: And for you to feel like you can still love

957
00:52:58,845 --> 00:53:01,885
Speaker 1: and appreciate that person and not apply so much meaning

958
00:53:01,965 --> 00:53:04,205
Speaker 1: to it, so I think we've kind of lost this

959
00:53:04,325 --> 00:53:08,045
Speaker 1: ability to be able to hold contradiction. But I do

960
00:53:08,165 --> 00:53:11,565
Speaker 1: think it starts with our selves. Otherwise, I promise you,

961
00:53:12,005 --> 00:53:13,605
Speaker 1: as much as you would like to think you'll be

962
00:53:13,645 --> 00:53:15,365
Speaker 1: able to do it, you will never be able to

963
00:53:15,365 --> 00:53:17,645
Speaker 1: hold contradiction in someone else if you can't do it

964
00:53:17,685 --> 00:53:17,965
Speaker 1: for you.

965
00:53:22,365 --> 00:53:27,805
Speaker 2: That makes so much sense, the idea of holding contradiction

966
00:53:28,325 --> 00:53:32,565
Speaker 2: in yourself and being open to the idea of changing

967
00:53:32,605 --> 00:53:37,925
Speaker 2: your mind or having nuanced views about things because most

968
00:53:37,925 --> 00:53:41,445
Speaker 2: of our views aren't completely polarized, and listening to Africa's

969
00:53:41,485 --> 00:53:44,965
Speaker 2: story and her wisdom, I can really understand how she's

970
00:53:45,005 --> 00:53:49,685
Speaker 2: become unafraid of cancelation and the online mob, especially through

971
00:53:49,725 --> 00:53:54,285
Speaker 2: that framework of someone behaving a bit like a toddler.

972
00:53:54,605 --> 00:53:58,045
Speaker 2: And that's not to be trite, because I do believe

973
00:53:58,045 --> 00:54:00,565
Speaker 2: that everybody thinks that they're doing the right thing. They

974
00:54:00,605 --> 00:54:03,525
Speaker 2: honestly do believe. I have to think this right. I

975
00:54:03,605 --> 00:54:06,965
Speaker 2: have to believe that they have good intentions if I

976
00:54:07,045 --> 00:54:10,885
Speaker 2: want that same consideration given back to me every time

977
00:54:10,925 --> 00:54:12,965
Speaker 2: I make a mistake or do something that people don't

978
00:54:13,005 --> 00:54:15,765
Speaker 2: agree with. But I think what's important is to pause

979
00:54:15,805 --> 00:54:18,765
Speaker 2: and ask yourself what do we actually owe the Internet?

980
00:54:19,205 --> 00:54:21,565
Speaker 2: What do we owe social media? What do we owe

981
00:54:21,965 --> 00:54:25,245
Speaker 2: to the strangers who follow us? Is it the only place,

982
00:54:25,685 --> 00:54:28,685
Speaker 2: or even the right place to engage in really complex

983
00:54:28,725 --> 00:54:33,805
Speaker 2: ideas and situations that require critical thinking and nuance and

984
00:54:33,845 --> 00:54:38,885
Speaker 2: where we might change our mind. The truth is, you

985
00:54:38,925 --> 00:54:42,405
Speaker 2: don't owe the Internet anything. What we do in our

986
00:54:42,445 --> 00:54:46,325
Speaker 2: actual lives, what we stand for in our communities and homes,

987
00:54:46,885 --> 00:54:51,045
Speaker 2: in our workplaces, and in our hearts, in our wider society,

988
00:54:51,165 --> 00:54:53,925
Speaker 2: that is always going to matter more than what you

989
00:54:54,005 --> 00:54:57,765
Speaker 2: do or don't post to the world. I don't post

990
00:54:57,805 --> 00:55:00,045
Speaker 2: about my kids online. Do you think that means I

991
00:55:00,045 --> 00:55:03,005
Speaker 2: don't care about them? And, as Africa says, in the

992
00:55:03,045 --> 00:55:05,725
Speaker 2: eyes of the Internet, you'll never get it right. So

993
00:55:05,805 --> 00:55:09,165
Speaker 2: maybe the best way to protect ourselves and each other

994
00:55:09,765 --> 00:55:12,925
Speaker 2: is to live our core values more than we post

995
00:55:13,125 --> 00:55:16,245
Speaker 2: about what we want people to think our core values

996
00:55:16,285 --> 00:55:19,925
Speaker 2: are or what we feel that their core values and

997
00:55:20,005 --> 00:55:24,445
Speaker 2: their posts should be. And look, I feel like I've

998
00:55:24,445 --> 00:55:26,285
Speaker 2: said that a lot in this podcast. I'll be honest

999
00:55:26,285 --> 00:55:28,765
Speaker 2: with you, there were moments I was really afraid to

1000
00:55:28,805 --> 00:55:31,605
Speaker 2: even have this conversation with Africa or share my own

1001
00:55:31,645 --> 00:55:36,525
Speaker 2: experiences and ask my own questions, because well, you know,

1002
00:55:36,685 --> 00:55:39,445
Speaker 2: I know what cancelation feels like, and it is life changing,

1003
00:55:40,085 --> 00:55:43,165
Speaker 2: not the good kind of life changing. And even saying that,

1004
00:55:43,325 --> 00:55:45,685
Speaker 2: I'm scared that people will try to weaponize those words

1005
00:55:46,085 --> 00:55:49,365
Speaker 2: to cancel me. But you know what, I can't let

1006
00:55:49,365 --> 00:55:51,165
Speaker 2: that fear run my life and I can't let it

1007
00:55:51,285 --> 00:55:53,685
Speaker 2: determine the kind of conversations that I want to bring

1008
00:55:53,725 --> 00:55:57,205
Speaker 2: you here on No Filter. I want No Filter to

1009
00:55:57,285 --> 00:55:59,405
Speaker 2: be a place where you can hear from people you

1010
00:55:59,485 --> 00:56:03,605
Speaker 2: might disagree with, or feel your own positions challenged a bit,

1011
00:56:03,725 --> 00:56:07,645
Speaker 2: and remember how to actually have conversations in a good

1012
00:56:07,685 --> 00:56:11,125
Speaker 2: faith way. And that's what this show is about. And

1013
00:56:11,205 --> 00:56:14,445
Speaker 2: as you heard, that is certainly what Africa is about.

1014
00:56:14,565 --> 00:56:17,205
Speaker 2: What strikes me most about her, I mean all the things,

1015
00:56:17,805 --> 00:56:21,845
Speaker 2: but it's her lack of righteousness. It is her openness,

1016
00:56:22,125 --> 00:56:25,845
Speaker 2: her ability to listen, and her willingness to embrace nuance,

1017
00:56:26,365 --> 00:56:31,005
Speaker 2: an uncertainty and contradiction. You probably want more of Africa.

1018
00:56:31,405 --> 00:56:34,645
Speaker 2: Who wouldn't Lucky for you. She's a consultant, a coach,

1019
00:56:34,765 --> 00:56:38,805
Speaker 2: a strategist, a speaker. She's magnificent on social media, and

1020
00:56:38,845 --> 00:56:40,885
Speaker 2: we will pop all the links that you need to

1021
00:56:40,965 --> 00:56:44,045
Speaker 2: become the Africa Brooks super fan that you should be,

1022
00:56:44,525 --> 00:56:46,885
Speaker 2: and like we all are here at No Filter, will

1023
00:56:46,885 --> 00:56:49,965
Speaker 2: pop them in the show notes. The executive producer of

1024
00:56:50,005 --> 00:56:52,805
Speaker 2: No Filter is Naima Brown. Give her a big, hard,

1025
00:56:52,845 --> 00:56:56,645
Speaker 2: thorny conversation any day over small talk. Our audio producer

1026
00:56:56,685 --> 00:56:59,565
Speaker 2: is Tom Lyon. He's learning how to meditate and will

1027
00:56:59,565 --> 00:57:03,245
Speaker 2: not engage in online drama. And I'm mea friedman. I'm

1028
00:57:03,285 --> 00:57:05,485
Speaker 2: gonna have a big cup of tea and a very

1029
00:57:05,485 --> 00:57:07,925
Speaker 2: big lie down. I'm your host. Be kind to each other.

1030
00:57:08,245 --> 00:57:11,005
Speaker 2: I think twice before you jump into a pylon. There's

1031
00:57:11,045 --> 00:57:14,565
Speaker 2: a real person on the bottom of it. Cancel reservations

1032
00:57:14,565 --> 00:57:15,605
Speaker 2: and meetings, not.

1033
00:57:15,645 --> 00:57:16,805
Speaker 1: People love you.

1034
00:57:17,165 --> 00:57:17,885
Speaker 2: See you next week.