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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mummama's daily news podcast, The Quickie,

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Speaker 1: and today we're going to find out how you get uncanceled. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it seems there is a cohort of celebs who, through

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Speaker 1: carefully curated appearances with a carefully curated crowd, have managed

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Speaker 1: to pull themselves back into the spotlight from the bin

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Speaker 1: in which we so definitively placed them. We're looking at you, Miller,

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Speaker 1: ashton Shire and James. But first let's find out what's

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Speaker 1: happening in the world with the latest headlines from the

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Speaker 1: Quikie Newsroom. Wednesday, June twelve. President Joe Biden's son Hunter

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Speaker 1: is facing a possible twenty five year jail sentence, found

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Speaker 1: guilty on three gun chargers. The jury took three hours

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Speaker 1: to reach a verdict at the trial, finding Hunter Biden

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Speaker 1: guilty of lying on a form when buying a gun

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Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen and illegally possessing the weapon for eleven days.

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Speaker 1: Biden claimed on the paperwork he was not using illegal

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Speaker 1: drugs when in fact he had an addiction to crack cocaine.

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Speaker 1: The federal charges have a maximum prison sentence of twenty

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Speaker 1: five years, but experts don't believe he'll get anywhere close

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Speaker 1: to that as a first time offender, with probation more likely.

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Speaker 1: President Biden released a statement after the conviction was handed down,

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Speaker 1: saying he and the first Lady will always be there

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Speaker 1: for their son, who they're proud of for coming out

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Speaker 1: of the other side of addiction, but will accept the

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Speaker 1: outcome and continue to respect the judicial system as his

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Speaker 1: son considers an appeal. A teenage boy has been arrested

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Speaker 1: after explicit images of female students from a Melbourne school

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Speaker 1: started circulating online. Fifty girls in years nine to twelve

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Speaker 1: at bachus Marsh Grammar reportedly had their images taken from

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Speaker 1: social media and manipulated into fake nudes using AI. The

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Speaker 1: students are being supported by the school, while the student

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Speaker 1: who allegedly made and then distributed the pictures has been

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Speaker 1: released pending further inquiries as the investigation can dows. The

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Speaker 1: school's principle says the creation and release of these images

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Speaker 1: is appalling and something that strikes to the heart of students,

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Speaker 1: particularly girls. Growing up at this stage, saying they should

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Speaker 1: be able to learn and go about their business without

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Speaker 1: this kind of nonsense. Hamas has reportedly accepted a UN

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Speaker 1: resolution backing a plan to end the war with Israel

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Speaker 1: and Gaza, but neither side has officially responded to the

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Speaker 1: truth proposal. Katari and Egyptian mediators are still waiting to

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Speaker 1: hear from both Israel and Hamas over the UN backed plan,

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Speaker 1: but an official close to the talks says that both

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Speaker 1: sides have suggested they are in agreeance as it fit

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Speaker 1: both their opposing goals. Discussion about what will happen once

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Speaker 1: the war is over is also happening over the next

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Speaker 1: few days, with US Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln in

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Speaker 1: Tel Aviv holding talks with Israeli leaders. Before Blincoln's arrival

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Speaker 1: in Israel, both Israel and Hamas had held hardline positions

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Speaker 1: that have interrupted any potential mediation, while Israel pressed on

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Speaker 1: with a sidelt in central and southern Gaza and her

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Speaker 1: Mass continues to hold hostages taken in the October seven

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Speaker 1: terror attack. Amongst all the rumors that Jennifer Lopez and

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Speaker 1: husband Ben Affleck are breaking up, E News co host

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Speaker 1: Justin Sylvester has thrown water on the fire with a

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Speaker 1: revelation about a night out at dinner. Sylvester says he

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Speaker 1: saw the couple while out recently, not sharing the location,

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Speaker 1: but sharing that the pair seemed like they were very happy,

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Speaker 1: him being his normal broody self while she chatted his

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Speaker 1: ear off, saying they still seemed very into each other.

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Speaker 1: The rumors have been circulating for months that Jen and

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Speaker 1: Ben were on the way to divorcing, after news broke

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Speaker 1: last month that they were no longer staying in the

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Speaker 1: same house. The rumors reaching fever pitch on the weekend

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Speaker 1: after it was revealed their selling their house in Beverly Hills,

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Speaker 1: which they bought for sixty million dollars just last year.

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Speaker 1: That's your latest news headlines. Next, there have been recent

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Speaker 1: sightings of celebs who seem to be in the process

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Speaker 1: of uncanceling themselves. We find out what they've done to

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Speaker 1: reverse their fall from grace, while others remain in the

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Speaker 1: wilderness to be seen or heard from again, and a

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Speaker 1: select few who seem immune to cancelation altogether. Remember when

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Speaker 1: actors Ashton Kutcher and Milikunis came out in support of

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Speaker 1: their disgraced former That seventy Show castmate Danny Masterson, only

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Speaker 1: to reverse their stance after the court found he really

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Speaker 1: did sexually assault those women. We are aware of the

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Speaker 1: pain that has been caused by the character letters that

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Speaker 1: we wrote on behalf of Danny Masks We support victims.

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Speaker 1: The letters were not written to question the legitimacy of

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Speaker 1: the judicial system.

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Speaker 2: They were intended for the judge rey, not to undermine

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Speaker 2: the testimony of the victims or rehoumitize them.

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Speaker 1: That happened just last year and was parodied by TikToker Clara,

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Speaker 1: who goes by the handle color Me Lovely and who

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Speaker 1: plays the role of pr to celebs who get it

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Speaker 1: all so very wrong.

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Speaker 3: Sure, yeah that apology.

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Speaker 2: You can use that word and it set me back

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Speaker 2: a few steps. So yeah, no, doing nothing would have

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Speaker 2: Emperor for a block.

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Speaker 1: Also, remember when actor Shia Labouf was accused by his

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Speaker 1: ex FKA Twigs of sexual battery, assault and the infliction

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Speaker 1: of emotional distress back in twenty twenty one. The case

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Speaker 1: is still yet to be heard in court, expected to

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Speaker 1: be in front of a judge later this year. Or

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Speaker 1: when James Franco was accused of using his now defunct

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Speaker 1: acting school as a way to prey on young girls,

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Speaker 1: who claimed in a lawsuit in twenty eighteen that he

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Speaker 1: was exploitative and sexually abusive. The case was later settled

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Speaker 1: out of court for two point two million with no

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Speaker 1: criminal record. All of these previous incidents seem to now

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Speaker 1: be in the past, with Franco and Labooth stepping out

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Speaker 1: on the carn red carpet, and Kunis and Kutcher making

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Speaker 1: smaller public debuts at intimate movie premieres, peaking with a

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Speaker 1: very big appearance at a basketball game with the pair's children,

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Speaker 1: nine year old Wyatt and seven year old Dmitri, who

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Speaker 1: are rarely seen in such a public moment, with their

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Speaker 1: famous parents squarely positioned between the two of them. With

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Speaker 1: these celebs sitting in the canceled bin, it seems they've

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Speaker 1: now done enough time to be uncanceled. It hasn't worked

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Ellen, for example, who was canceled first in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven after publicly coming out in her sitcom,

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Speaker 1: a move that would put her in the acting wilderness

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Speaker 1: for more than a decade. Afterwards, started The Ellen Show,

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Speaker 1: which debuted in two thousand and three, and her star

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Speaker 1: Rose and rose again, making her one of the favorite

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Speaker 1: talk show hosts of the time, before she was again canceled,

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Speaker 1: this time for reportedly creating a toxic work environment and

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Speaker 1: overlooking some shocking behaviors by former producers. The show came

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Speaker 1: to an end in twenty twenty with the ratings in

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Speaker 1: a free fall. She hasn't been able to get back since.

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Speaker 1: Go back a little further and Mel Gibson, who seemed

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Speaker 1: to be falling off a cliff professionally in personally in

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Speaker 1: the early two thousands, culminating in a dui arrest in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six where he unleashed an anti semitic rant,

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Speaker 1: followed up in twenty ten where tapes between him and

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Speaker 1: ex Oxana Gregorieva were leaked. He screamed abuse, what am I?

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Speaker 1: Didn't you? And we thought it was all over for Mel.

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Speaker 1: But six years after that he was given a standing

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Speaker 1: ovation at the Venice Film Festival for his movie haxel Rich,

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Speaker 1: which would go on to win a bunch of Oscars.

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Speaker 1: More recently, Jerry Seinfeld is saying things that should get him.

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Speaker 3: Canceled as a man. I didn't ask your pronouns. I've

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Speaker 3: always wanted to be a real man in that era Again,

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Speaker 3: it was JFK, it was Muhammad Ali, Sean Connery. I

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Speaker 3: miss a dominant masculinity. Yeah, I get the toxic n.

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Speaker 1: But even a response from his former Seinfeld castmate Julia

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Speaker 1: Luis Dreyfus, who says people who complain about political correctness

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Speaker 1: is a red flag, hasn't seemed enough for this comedian

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Speaker 1: to get himself on the canceled list. Well, it seems

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Speaker 1: like it's always men who are able to be uncanceled.

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Speaker 1: That's not always the case, Gleister. Leah Michelle was canceled

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty after tweeting solidarity for the Black Lives

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Speaker 1: Matter movement, but was outed by former coastar Samantha Ware,

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Speaker 1: who claimed she was bullied by Michelle, joined by other

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Speaker 1: castmates who pointed out her mean girl behavior. She was

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Speaker 1: out in the wilds from that point on, but a

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Speaker 1: couple of years later Michelle was back, taking over the

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Speaker 1: lead role in the Broadway show Funny Girl. So are

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Speaker 1: we in the era of the great uncanceled? Or are

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Speaker 1: there some who will never make it back to see

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Speaker 1: the light of day. Laura Brodnick is MMA MIA's head

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Speaker 1: of Entertainment and co host of our daily entertainment podcast,

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Speaker 1: This Spill Laura. Where it comes to being uncanceled, does

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Speaker 1: the crime dictate the cancelation time? Like Miller and Ashton

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Speaker 1: wrote some letters supporting a very bad man, but Shia

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Speaker 1: and James allegedly are the bad men, so it should

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Speaker 1: take them longer to return, right.

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Speaker 2: It definitely should come down to the crime they've committed

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Speaker 2: to kind of use that phrasing or the reason that

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Speaker 2: people are upset about them. But a lot of the

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Speaker 2: timing can come from how big the public outcry was,

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Speaker 2: where their public standing was so for someone like Miella

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Speaker 2: and Ashton because they had really shaped themselves as this

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Speaker 2: Hollywood golden couple. They had founded a charity against child

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse in human trafficking, and were really seen as

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Speaker 2: his family unit. Because they wrote those letters in defense

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Speaker 2: of a man who was charged with drugging and raping women,

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Speaker 2: that felt like it had a longer time for them

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Speaker 2: to stay out of the spotlight. Whereas James Franco and

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Speaker 2: Sheila Buff some terrible allegations are made against them. But

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Speaker 2: because both of those men were seen as these troubled

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Speaker 2: artists and these artistic men, even though they both did

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Speaker 2: have some time over a year out of the spotlight.

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Speaker 2: It seems like they could have come back a little

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Speaker 2: bit earlier because their public persona was different.

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Speaker 1: Is that something too, Is this expectation that some men

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Speaker 1: in Hollywood are just awful people, or even just not

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Speaker 1: just men in particular, that those who populate Hollywood are

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Speaker 1: just genuinely awful and we just have to accept the

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Speaker 1: fact that they're going to do awful things.

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Speaker 2: It definitely comes down to what your brand is. So

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Speaker 2: we'll have someone like an Ellen Degenerest, who has canceled

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Speaker 2: for a long time, who there were accusations that she

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Speaker 2: was rude to staff. Obviously, that's nowhere near some of

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Speaker 2: the accusations that are coming out against men like Shier

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Speaker 2: and James Franco. But because they hadn't sold themselves on

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Speaker 2: kindness or being good people, they had sold themselves as

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Speaker 2: people who were dark artists who wanted to stay out

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Speaker 2: of the spotlight, I thought the public can lean a

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Speaker 2: lot more into giving them these redemption arcs sooner. It's

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Speaker 2: definitely not the right way it should play out, But

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Speaker 2: pop culture and fame and the entertainment industry is a

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Speaker 2: very fickle thing. A lot of time, it comes down

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Speaker 2: to how you're seen, not actually what you've done.

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Speaker 1: Can we look at the process then, of how some

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Speaker 1: of these stars have uncanceled themselves, and it seems like

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Speaker 1: they do all kind of move along the same process.

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Speaker 1: One is where they back away pretty much entirely from

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Speaker 1: the spotlight and they stay quiet for a while. Some

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Speaker 1: might apologize or have a very high profile journalist, for example,

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Speaker 1: sit down and talk to them about the work that

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Speaker 1: they've put in and how they've come to realizations about

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Speaker 1: the way that they were behaving, etc. And then they

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Speaker 1: can slowly step back into the light. But then there

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Speaker 1: are others who just to ignore it and it goes away.

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Speaker 1: So there must be some big PR machines working behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes to get these people back on track.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, if they've done something where there are accusations,

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Speaker 2: or they've been found guilty, or have had a settlement

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Speaker 2: around something like rape or drugs or abuse, a lot

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Speaker 2: of the time they won't do those big, glossy magazine

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Speaker 2: interviews because then they open themselves up to a journalist

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Speaker 2: asking these hard questions and if they don't answer, that

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Speaker 2: can make their story worse. So we usually see those

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Speaker 2: glossy magazines for people who have had a bit of

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Speaker 2: a public misstep and they can kind of set the

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Speaker 2: records straight there. For men in particular who have to

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Speaker 2: bring their careers back in that way, a lot of

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Speaker 2: it comes down to staying out of the spotlight for

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Speaker 2: quite a long time. Sometimes they can be up to

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Speaker 2: a year or two years. And then what really helps

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Speaker 2: them is having other famous people step in and really

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Speaker 2: support them. So either cast them in big movies like

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Speaker 2: we've seen recently with Shilah Bouff and Francis Ford Coppola,

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Speaker 2: having him at Khan and walking the Red carpet in

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Speaker 2: that movie also really helps. If they have a new relationship.

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Speaker 2: People are very forgiving of a man who has been

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Speaker 2: charged with something like that, who has a woman by

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Speaker 2: his side, and also who becomes a father. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying that's why this happens, but with someone like

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Speaker 2: sheer La Boof, like Mia Goth supporting him, walking red

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Speaker 2: carpets with him, they have a child together. James Fencob

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Speaker 2: not posing with his girlfriend red carpets but then being

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Speaker 2: photographed together really has softened his image. They also don't

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Speaker 2: do the kind of big, glitzy photo shoots are often

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Speaker 2: more in rumpled suits, they have a bit of facial hair.

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Speaker 2: It's this idea that they've punished themselves and worked on

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Speaker 2: themselves and then they start to slowly re emerge.

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Speaker 1: Is there an equivalent for women in the same situation.

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Speaker 1: I mean, often they're not canceled due to sexual assault allegations.

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Speaker 1: It's more likely that they were bullies, like for example,

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Speaker 1: Leam Michelle was outed for She has uncanceled herself but

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Speaker 1: has quietly taken smaller roles and maybe what she would

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Speaker 1: have precancelation, Like there were people who commented that she

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Speaker 1: would never have picked up a role on Broadway was

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Speaker 1: already done by Beanie Feldstein to become like the second

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Speaker 1: person to step in that role. But we've seen other actors'

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Speaker 1: contacts smaller roles in their return from being canceled, like

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Speaker 1: Kevin Spacey, for example, is doing smaller movies these days.

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Speaker 1: Is that the redemption up for women is that they

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Speaker 1: have to kind of quietly sneak their way back.

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Speaker 2: In Exactly, they had just seek their way back into

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Speaker 2: the industry, and even if it's a main role like

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Speaker 2: Leah Michelle had in Funny Girl, they come back with

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Speaker 2: this very overhauled persona. And even though Lee Michelle did

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Speaker 2: a few interviews talking about how she had worked on

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Speaker 2: herself and how she was so young when those allegations

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Speaker 2: came out, and some of them weren't just being awful

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Speaker 2: and set. There were allegations of racial abuse and all

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Speaker 2: these horrible things that came from her co stars. And

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Speaker 2: so the whole time she was starring on this Broadway

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Speaker 2: show and working her way up, she gave a lot

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Speaker 2: of interviews at being very humbled. There were all these

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Speaker 2: stories that were being leaked from the rehearsal set of

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Speaker 2: Funny Girl, of her arriving so early and being so

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Speaker 2: kind to everyone, and there were all these cast members

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Speaker 2: who would never normally have done any kind of press

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Speaker 2: giving interviews about what a lovely person she wo was.

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Speaker 2: And on her first night having her big curtain call,

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Speaker 2: usually that would be a moment for her to kind

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Speaker 2: of step forward, that she was pulling her cast mates

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Speaker 2: up with her. It was all very orchestrated for her

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Speaker 2: to completely shed that nasty diva persona.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we're also as a community becoming a

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Speaker 1: little less into canceling people and a little bit more

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Speaker 1: willing to allow them to make mistakes. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: saw it with Willopy Goldberg, for example, who said some

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Speaker 1: things about the Holocaust, and Matt Damon, who said a

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Speaker 1: very nasty Geisler that he said he didn't understand. But

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Speaker 1: those two weren't essentially canceled. They were more suspended for

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Speaker 1: a minute and then kind of allowed to admit that

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Speaker 1: they'd messed up and can get back to work. Is

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Speaker 1: that where we're at now with canceling people.

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think there's a lot of fatigue at the

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Speaker 2: moment around, particularly the cancelation of very public men who

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Speaker 2: have done things that are quite serious, only because there's

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Speaker 2: been such a huge news cycle of that for the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years that unless it's something like with

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Speaker 2: Sean Combs, of like a video coming out that's very visceral.

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Speaker 2: When those allegations first came out, it wasn't the new cycle,

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Speaker 2: but it didn't really pick up with fans or the

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Speaker 2: general public because there was just so much fatigue there. Instead,

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Speaker 2: we're more likely to attach ourselves to these short, salacious

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Speaker 2: moments of like Jennifer Lopez being rude to someone on

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Speaker 2: a red carpet, and canceling her for a few days

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Speaker 2: through TikTok videos, because that doesn't evoke a deeper conversation.

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Speaker 2: There's no stress around it. It's seen there's this moment

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Speaker 2: in pop culture, but I think there's definitely fatigue around,

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Speaker 2: particularly canceling famous men, just because people just can't keep

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Speaker 2: up that intensity. Even though that's a horrible way to think,

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Speaker 2: because every woman who comes home with a story is important.

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Speaker 2: That's just an intensity that people have just let go

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Speaker 2: because it feels like every day the news cycle is

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Speaker 2: giving you a different story like that.

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Speaker 1: Just finally, are there people in the industry who are uncancellable?

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Speaker 1: It seems like Jerry Seinfeld is doing his utmost best

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Speaker 1: to get himself canceled, but just doesn't. And we've seen

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Speaker 1: men like Jimmy Carr, the comedian who purposely made a

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Speaker 1: whole show about trying to get himself canceled and did

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Speaker 1: not get canceled. Arethough, people in this industry who are

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Speaker 1: just immune.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there definitely are. I think with Darry Seinfeld, the

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Speaker 2: fact that he hasn't been canceled is just that he

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Speaker 2: doesn't have that cultural currency anymore, and so a lot

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Speaker 2: of people don't have that interest in him and his

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Speaker 2: career enough to cancel him. But then you've got someone

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Speaker 2: like Brad Pitt who has had years, years and years

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Speaker 2: of the worst allegations coming out about him that haven't

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Speaker 2: been disproven. They just didn't go through court. Allegations around

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Speaker 2: physical violence and assault from his kids and from his

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Speaker 2: ex wife, Angelina Jolly. His kids have tried to go

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Speaker 2: on the record many times in court to talk about

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Speaker 2: things that he's done to them. They're all dropping his

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Speaker 2: surname now and have said that they physically don't want

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Speaker 2: to be around him. Most other stars in Hollywood, those

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Speaker 2: kind of stories coming out with sour someone's reputation a

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Speaker 2: little bit. But because Brad Pitt has been attached to

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Speaker 2: so many big studio movies and there's too much money

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Speaker 2: wrapped around him, and he has a big network of friends,

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Speaker 2: and he's very good at like walking humbly out on

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Speaker 2: red carpets and embracing his co stars and acting like

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Speaker 2: this lovely, tradditional golden boy movie star. And I think

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Speaker 2: there are a few men in Hollywood who were in

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Speaker 2: that mold who were just completely untouchable.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to throw her under the bus, but

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Aniston played a big role in that, right, because

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Speaker 1: there was this moment we were all shipping them getting

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Speaker 1: back together.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's really something that happens with famous men

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Speaker 2: in particular. I mean the Johnny Depp amber Her trial

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Speaker 2: is a really good example of that, where you had

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Speaker 2: when on a writer and Kate Moss and all these

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Speaker 2: women who were very beloved coming forward and yes with

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Aniston. At the same time, all those headlines were

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Speaker 2: coming out about things that the FBI was investigating between

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Speaker 2: him and Angelina Jolly. The main headlines that really took

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Speaker 2: over were him and Jennifer Aniston hugging on a red

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Speaker 2: carpet or being on a zoom call together, because that's

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Speaker 2: such a nicer story to attach ourselves to. So I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of the time it comes down to

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Speaker 2: the famous people who were going to stand beside you

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Speaker 2: more so than the story that's out there.

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Speaker 1: For more from Laura Brodnick, check out The Spiel Daily

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Speaker 1: here and The Muma mea podcast Network. Thanks for listening today, friends.

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Speaker 1: The Quickie is pretroduced by me Claire Murphy and our

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Speaker 1: executive producer Kellie Rintole, with audio production by Tom Lyone.