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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. For Mamma Mia,

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to But Are You Happy?

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Speaker 1: The podcast for people who think healing is buiting new

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Speaker 1: water bottle and deleting their Instagram for the afternoon.

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Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia Harnas, a clinical psychologist passionate about

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Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. This week is the last week

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Speaker 2: that we are bringing you a special episode focused on

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Speaker 2: the holiday season. Last week, we spoke about the financial

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Speaker 2: pressures we all experience over this season of buying gifts

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Speaker 2: and paying holidays.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about how to navigate difficult family and

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Speaker 1: friend dynamics when you're forced to see them at holiday events.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you have different political views, maybe you've fallen out

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Speaker 1: with them, or maybe you never really liked them.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you how you can actually engage

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Speaker 2: with these types of people at the gatherings you've been dreading.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it. So it's really funny because when

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Speaker 1: we were preparing for this episode, it got me thinking

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Speaker 1: about those memes on Instagram around if you think you

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Speaker 1: feel just spend a weekend with your family, Oh you

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Speaker 1: know those ones, you know the ones around there.

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen that.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I have to send it. But it's

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Speaker 1: so funny because it genuinely gets me thinking more about

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Speaker 1: why do the people that we love most trigger us the.

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Speaker 2: Most those old wounds. Seriously, they get triggered up. It's

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Speaker 2: funny we have It's so true that family can irritate

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Speaker 2: us and upset us in ways that other strangers or

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Speaker 2: acquaintances just can't. You know, even if someone we just

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Speaker 2: met said something that was more mean than what a

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Speaker 2: family member says. We have history with our family, and

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Speaker 2: so that one comment that upsets us at the dinner

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Speaker 2: table is actually not just about the one comment, it's

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Speaker 2: about all the comments that have come before it. It's

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Speaker 2: so true.

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Speaker 1: There is so much history, and it gets me thinking

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Speaker 1: about sometimes, like when I'm back with my family, it's

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Speaker 1: like I regress into being a fifteen year old, and

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Speaker 1: then I just have this inner conflict being like, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, a Shanie, what are you doing. We've done

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Speaker 1: so much in a work.

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Speaker 2: Are we here? Like you know what I mean? Regression

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Speaker 2: to the old role. Yes, yeah, it's interesting. It's a

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Speaker 2: very common thing that people talk about when they're with family.

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Speaker 2: And perhaps you know, they're now living independently or they

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Speaker 2: have families of their own, and then they go back

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Speaker 2: to their sort of core family from their upbringing that

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Speaker 2: they do go back into those more childlike roles. And

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Speaker 2: I've certainly heard people talk about, you know, being really

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Speaker 2: quite successful people in their day to day lives, really

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Speaker 2: confident in their workplace, and then suddenly they go back

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Speaker 2: to the family home and they're the quiet, timid, you know,

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Speaker 2: fifteen year old like you said, waiting to take instructions

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Speaker 2: from mom and dad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so true.

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Speaker 2: I like that we're talking about this regression into different

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Speaker 2: roles because it reminds me of a type of therapy

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Speaker 2: called internal family systems. Yes, for sure, And I know

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Speaker 2: you know a bit about this as well. But for

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Speaker 2: the listeners out there, it's essentially this notion that we

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Speaker 2: have different parts within ourselves, but these parts can be

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Speaker 2: influenced by the ways in which our family dynamics were constructed.

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Speaker 2: So for example, we might have sort of the part

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Speaker 2: of us that's like the manager role, who's really good

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Speaker 2: at like keeping the peace and organizing things and trying

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Speaker 2: to prevent conflict. And we might have the firefighter who's

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Speaker 2: like oh no, there's some tension going on. Quick like

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Speaker 2: put that out, make a funny joke to fuse the situation.

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Speaker 2: So we have these different roles and parts within us,

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Speaker 2: but depending on who we're with from our family, different

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Speaker 2: kind of parts of us will come out as well.

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Speaker 1: It's like different characters in a way, isn't it. Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I guess different levels of comfortability with vulnerability,

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Speaker 2: how much we're willing to share with our family, the

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Speaker 2: sorts of topics we're happy to talk to them about, etc.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting because I think when it comes

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Speaker 1: to family dynamics, there's this it's hard to be vulnerable

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Speaker 1: sometimes because they are the closest people in your life

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Speaker 1: and you're like, can I share this? Is it safe to?

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Speaker 1: Will I receive a lot of backlash? You know? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And often they're the people we hope we will get

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Speaker 2: love and acceptance and validation from, or we expect we'll

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Speaker 2: get those things, and so if instead we're met with

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Speaker 2: criticism or you know, some tough love, that hits harder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And it's so different to friends, right because friends,

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Speaker 1: like we choose to hang out with our friends, we

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Speaker 1: can't really choose our family, Like we're born into our families,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get what we get and we're stuck

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Speaker 1: with them for life, with love of course.

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Speaker 2: And it's funny because sometimes family can actually be a

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Speaker 2: bit of a mirror back to us in a way

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Speaker 2: that irritates us, but it actually reflects things within ourselves

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Speaker 2: that perhaps we feel unresolved with or not happy about

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Speaker 2: within ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad you talk about the mirrors part,

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Speaker 1: because it's so easy to just go into blaming the

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Speaker 1: way that other people are, which can be completely validt

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Speaker 1: you know, with whatever the context is or the history

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Speaker 1: that's there, or however they're made up. But I think

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Speaker 1: as well, the reality is at the end of the day, like,

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Speaker 1: we can't control how other people show up, Like we

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Speaker 1: can try to communicate our needs, but at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, we can control how we show up.

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Speaker 1: So I like that self responsibility piece and the self

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Speaker 1: reflective being, like, Okay, why is that person triggering me?

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Speaker 1: What is it bringing up within me that I haven't

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Speaker 1: yet fully looked at. It's absolutely it's a mirror.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it gives us some insight into what we

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Speaker 2: need to work on as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which can be confronting but also healing too.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, And I feel like this is a nice

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Speaker 2: time to talk about those emotional wounds. And I know

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Speaker 2: we've used this analogy in a previous episode where we

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Speaker 2: talked about trauma, but really, when I think about emotional wounds,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't have to just relate to trauma. Can be

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Speaker 2: any sort of existing psychological or emotional hardship that we've

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Speaker 2: carried with us for some period of time. And I

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Speaker 2: think about that wound. If you imagine like a scab

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Speaker 2: on your arm, Say, if you walk past a tree

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Speaker 2: and a branch sort of scratches that scab and it

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Speaker 2: comes off, blood's gonna come rushing out. If you don't

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Speaker 2: have that scab, then it's just like, ohch a little scratch.

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Speaker 2: It hurts, but it doesn't hurt that much. But if

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Speaker 2: the scab comes off and blood comes out, that's more

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Speaker 2: painful and more intense. And that's often how it feels

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Speaker 2: when we're around family who trigger up those old wounds

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Speaker 2: that we have.

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Speaker 1: It's so true, it's such a good analogy. After the break,

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Speaker 1: Doc Anastasia is going to break down the myth of

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Speaker 1: the perfect family gathering and bring us back to reality.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us.

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Speaker 2: Can I just talk about Christmas movies and movies about

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Speaker 2: the holidays for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, let's do it. I love it.

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Speaker 2: I love a cheesy Christmas movie. Love the cheesier the better.

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Speaker 1: What's your top one?

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Speaker 2: I'm so curious.

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Speaker 1: I do like love actually, Oh yeah, that's a classic where.

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Speaker 2: She stands outside with the sign.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so romantic.

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Speaker 2: But when in real life does that ever happen? It's true,

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Speaker 2: so true. But this is the thing about these Christmas

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Speaker 2: movies and these holiday movies is that they paint these

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Speaker 2: unrealistic expectations of what the holiday period should be like

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Speaker 2: and what family gathering should be like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true.

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Speaker 2: And it's funny because they never well, they don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: paint the picture of the perfect happy family. I mean

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Speaker 2: some do, but a lot don't.

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Speaker 1: There's always drama.

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Speaker 2: There's always drama, right, wouldn't be like an interesting movie

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Speaker 2: without some drama. But it's always drama that gets resolved.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so true.

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Speaker 2: It's always drama that can somehow be resolved just before Christmas,

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Speaker 2: just before the big family gathering, or just after or

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Speaker 2: just in time. You know, it sells us this message

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Speaker 2: that that the core happy family does exist. You've just

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Speaker 2: got to overcome a couple of hurdles to get there

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Speaker 2: and then lo and behold it can all come together

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Speaker 2: for you. And that's beautiful if that's how it happens.

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Speaker 2: But the reality is that's not a lot of people's experiences.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so true, Like, conflict doesn't just stop, you do,

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like it can be ongoing and

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Speaker 1: it can be years it like it can really drag off.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're probably not going to resolve like years of

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Speaker 2: family tensions over one Christmas dinner. Yeah, that's so true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, would like that.

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Speaker 2: It would be nice. Unfortunately, No, Yes, So I think

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Speaker 2: I think that's important to note because if people don't

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Speaker 2: have that experience, but they see that portrayed in movies

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Speaker 2: and on TV, that can lead for people to feel

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Speaker 2: not so good about their own situation or if they

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Speaker 2: don't have the big happy family, If maybe Christmas New

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Speaker 2: Year's holiday periods are actually quite quiet and lonely times

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Speaker 2: for people, seeing these depictions of what these festivities should

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Speaker 2: look like can then be really hard.

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Speaker 1: It really is setting up these unrealistic expectations at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, It's interesting that you were talking

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Speaker 1: about loneliness because it gets me thinking about how sometimes

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Speaker 1: around the holiday period it actually can bring up a

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Speaker 1: bit of grief for people because there's certain people not

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Speaker 1: at the table that you wanted.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yes, grief as a result of loss from

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Speaker 2: you know, family members perhaps passing away or from estranged

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Speaker 2: family members. You know, dynamics and tensions in families where

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Speaker 2: maybe someone's no longer talking to their family or a

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Speaker 2: member of their family, and that can be a really

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Speaker 2: hard time for people and really brings those issues to

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Speaker 2: the forefront of their mind. So again, these festivities that

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Speaker 2: are sold as being really joyous, happy fun times often

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Speaker 2: come with a lot of complexity and sometimes also a

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Speaker 2: lot of pain.

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Speaker 1: Totally after the break duckto Anastasia is going to tell

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Speaker 1: us how we can engage in big family discussions without

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Speaker 1: it all erupting. Stay with us, okay, anesthesia. How do

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Speaker 1: we engage in conversations with loved ones without erupting? Is

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Speaker 1: it possible?

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Speaker 2: It is possible. It's not always easy.

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Speaker 1: Though, Yeah, yeah, yeah, good answer.

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Speaker 2: So a couple of tips for people. First one, if

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Speaker 2: you are going to family get togethers and family gatherings,

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Speaker 2: be prepared. If you've got that one uncle that likes

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Speaker 2: to talk politics, be prepared that that's a conversation that

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Speaker 2: may come up at the dinner table, and be prepared

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Speaker 2: as to how you yourself want to approach some of

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Speaker 2: those challenging conversations. You might decide that, you know, the

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Speaker 2: New Year's barbecue isn't necessarily the time or place where

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Speaker 2: you want to be having these bigger conversations with some

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Speaker 2: family members. Maybe that's not the time to talk about

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Speaker 2: religion or politics or money, and so you decide to

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Speaker 2: save those conversations for a later time. If someone else

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Speaker 2: engages you in those conversations, you can politely decline to

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Speaker 2: talk about it with them, or you can sort of

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Speaker 2: steer the conversation in another direction, or you can choose

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Speaker 2: to be quiet if it is a bigger conversation. I

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Speaker 2: think some people may feel a pressure like if I

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Speaker 2: don't contribute to this conversation, if I don't add my

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Speaker 2: two cents, if I don't share my beliefs on this topic,

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Speaker 2: then I'm doing myself a disservice. I would say, there's

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Speaker 2: a time and a place for everything, and so it's

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Speaker 2: completely up to you if it feels like engaging in

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Speaker 2: those conversations is going to be too much at this

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Speaker 2: point in time.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting when you're just giving the example about

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Speaker 1: the uncle that likes to talk about politics, and how

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Speaker 1: would you politely decline that conversation though, right, because there

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Speaker 1: is this element where, if you are younger, it's like,

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Speaker 1: how do I communicate that in a respectful way?

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Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, it could be something as simple as saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: there's so much happening right now with the state of

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Speaker 2: the world and with politics, but you know what, I'm

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Speaker 2: so happy just enjoying this barbecue as it is. Let's

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Speaker 2: you know, let's go back for another sausage of the barbecue,

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Speaker 2: or something like actually diverting the conversation away from it,

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Speaker 2: acknowledging that someone wants to talk about it, but sharing

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Speaker 2: That's not what I want to do right now. I

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Speaker 2: actually want to enjoy my time and connect with people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 2: Preparation for the family get togethers can even sometimes go

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Speaker 2: as far as thinking through where you might sit, who

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Speaker 2: you might sit next to, where you might stand, you know,

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Speaker 2: who you're going to actually surround yourself with. If there

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Speaker 2: are family members that you know you have a little

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Speaker 2: bit more of a challenging time with actually sort of

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Speaker 2: strategically thinking through if you might like to not spend

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Speaker 2: as much time with them, and how you can make

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Speaker 2: that happen strategic. We like it. I think it's about

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Speaker 2: being prepared. Yeah, right, know yourself, know what topics are,

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Speaker 2: maybe no topics for you, and be prepared rather than

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Speaker 2: walking into a situation where you feel ambushed.

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Speaker 1: So do you have any other tips?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Practically take some breaks if the family get togethers

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Speaker 2: feel overwhelming for you, take a bathroom break, take a

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Speaker 2: walk around the block, break, take a I've just got

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Speaker 2: to make a quick phone call outside break, Take whatever

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Speaker 2: break it needs to be, but allow yourself that time

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Speaker 2: to regroup your thoughts, manage your own internal emotional experiences,

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Speaker 2: and decide how you want to proceed with the family

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Speaker 2: get together. Is it that you need to take a

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Speaker 2: breather and then you can re enter, or is it

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Speaker 2: that you need to take a breather and then go.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I don't have too much left in the bucket

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Speaker 2: and I'll probably need to leave this gathering soon.

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 2: One more suggestion I have is for people to be

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Speaker 2: willing and prepared to disappoint others, So make sure you

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Speaker 2: say yes when you actually mean yes, and make sure

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Speaker 2: you say no when you mean no. Do you actually

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Speaker 2: want the responsibility of cooking the meals for the Christmas dinner?

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Speaker 2: Or do you actually want to be spending money on

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Speaker 2: buying gifts? Or do you actually want to do the

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Speaker 2: things that you were saying yes for or are you

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Speaker 2: doing them out of obligation or habit. This might be

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Speaker 2: a time where you reconsider what it really is that

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Speaker 2: you want out of the holidays, how you want to

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Speaker 2: connect with other people, and how you can communicate your

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Speaker 2: boundaries around those.

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Speaker 1: At a stagia. Can you reiterate on the main takeaways

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Speaker 1: from today's episode. Yes.

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Speaker 2: First of all, family can trigger old emotional wounds in us,

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Speaker 2: sometimes more than strangers or acquaintances can. Second, avoid getting

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Speaker 2: pulled into the myth of the perfect family gathering that's

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Speaker 2: sold to us via Hollywood. And last of all, have

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Speaker 2: a plan for how to manage difficult family dynamics and

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Speaker 2: be prepared to set some no go topics of conversation.

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Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there are

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Speaker 1: a few ways to get in contact with us. Links

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Speaker 1: are in the show notes. And remember, while I am

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Speaker 1: a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool. The advice

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Speaker 1: and ideas that we present here should always take into

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Speaker 1: account your personal medical history. Next week, we're back to

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Speaker 1: our regular episodes, so tune in for those.

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Speaker 2: The senior producer of What Are You Happy is Tarlie Blackman,

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Speaker 2: Executive producer is Naima Brown, and Social producer is Jemma

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Speaker 2: Dona who sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram and TikTok search at

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Speaker 1: but Are You Happy Pod? I'm a Shandy Dante.

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Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anaesthesia heronus. The names and stories of

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Speaker 2: clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.

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Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,

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Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes

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Speaker 2: around the topics we discussed today. If you're wanting more

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Speaker 2: immediate support, you can reach out to organizations like Beyond

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Speaker 2: Blue or Lifeline.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and

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Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on