Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
Speaker 1: women are actually talking about on Wednesday, sixth of May.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright and the first thing I'm going to do,
Speaker 1: the first order of business, very simple out louder is
Speaker 1: if you love your show, please vote for us in
Speaker 1: the upcoming Australian Audio Awards as a People's Choice category.
Speaker 1: It's really straightforward. We're going to put a link in
Speaker 1: the show notes, We're probably going to put it on
Speaker 1: social We're going to put it everywhere. We would love
Speaker 1: your support to help us get there. That is the
Speaker 1: end of my manifesto for the day.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I just would like to say as a
Speaker 2: lazy girl that there are all these things to fill out.
Speaker 3: You only have to fill us out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to do everything is just tick
Speaker 1: Mama Mia out Loud.
Speaker 3: So important for the lazy girls out there, and as
Speaker 3: as a bossy girl, I just concur with Holly. I
Speaker 3: know you can make that ask of people, and I
Speaker 3: think that's a great step towards greet our self assertive.
Speaker 1: I'm growing, I'm growing, Amelia Growing. I'm Amelia Lester and
Speaker 1: I'm Claire Stephen and here's what's made our agenda for today.
Speaker 1: So now that it's all over and many damning text
Speaker 1: messages scatter the ruins of what was the biggest celebrity
Speaker 1: story for a couple of years, Just who did win
Speaker 1: in the whole? Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni court case drama.
Speaker 3: Plus Cameron Diaz is a mother again at fifty three,
Speaker 3: and Holly has some thoughts.
Speaker 2: And veteran broadcaster James Valentine filmed the last year of
Speaker 2: his life for the ABC, and between a living wake
Speaker 2: and his openness around voluntary assisted dying, he's opened a
Speaker 2: conversation around what it means to die a good death.
Speaker 1: But first, Amelia Lester, the Mecgala.
Speaker 3: Did it feel different this year? A lot of people
Speaker 3: said that it did. Amy Odell, a fashion writer, wrote
Speaker 3: in her background newsletter that the Metgala was all money,
Speaker 3: no soul, and she wasn't alone in this criticism. Basically,
Speaker 3: people are saying that because Jeff Bezos and his wife
Speaker 3: Lauren Sanchez Bezos sponsored the event, it just started to
Speaker 3: feel a little craven, a little gross, and less fun
Speaker 3: than it used to be. So there were a lot
Speaker 3: of protests in New York. In the lead up to
Speaker 3: the event, they were all centered around Amazon's labor practices,
Speaker 3: its environmental damage. And then there are those who say, no,
Speaker 3: that's not true. The mech color's always been about rich
Speaker 3: people giving their money towards a good cause, which is
Speaker 3: the Metropolitan Museum's Costume Institute. And look, they did raise
Speaker 3: a lot of money on Monday night. The Bezos has
Speaker 3: bought the event for about ten million dollars, but then
Speaker 3: the event itself raised about forty one million. This is
Speaker 3: US dollars, which is a lot for this event. It's
Speaker 3: apparently kind of record breaking. So are we just complaining
Speaker 3: about nothing, Holly? Do you feel like celebrities stayed away?
Speaker 3: Did they agree that this was a sort of off
Speaker 3: event this year?
Speaker 1: So I'm going to give you a list of the
Speaker 1: celebrities who people say boycotted, because none of the people
Speaker 1: so far who everyone is saying has boycott had actually
Speaker 1: verbalized that they were boycott.
Speaker 3: Well, we are boycotted, which we just had to take
Speaker 3: a stand because.
Speaker 1: I do feel a little bit like what soul when
Speaker 1: you said it's all money those salt like, I do
Speaker 1: feel a bit that I don't think this is the
Speaker 1: first year. It has been pointed out in the culture,
Speaker 1: particularly since trump Ism and all those things, that this
Speaker 1: feels very hunger games. Yes, yes, and I know although
Speaker 1: there's a more direct link here, you know, with the
Speaker 1: Bezos is buying it. I do feel like Jeff sort
Speaker 1: of bought it for Lauren as a gift, which is
Speaker 1: a nice gift. Nice, but it feels more avert. So anyway,
Speaker 1: let's look at this because when I was watching it
Speaker 1: on Tuesday and then I did a subscriber episode with
Speaker 1: me as straight afterwards, I was like, well, all the
Speaker 1: celebrities are there, like Beyonce's there. All the famous people
Speaker 1: I was expecting to be there were there.
Speaker 2: Well, actually a lot of famous feom we didn't expect
Speaker 2: to be there were there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then it was pointed out to me who
Speaker 1: was not Billie Eilish. Now that tracks because she doesn't
Speaker 1: like billionaires, and she remembers she gave a speech a
Speaker 1: while ago where she said, you lot give more of
Speaker 1: your money away. So I don't think she would have
Speaker 1: been either welcome or willing to go, because Jeff might
Speaker 1: have worried that she was going to shake him down
Speaker 1: in the bathroom to share more of his money. Zoe Saldana,
Speaker 1: she is somebody who is usually there. She was not there.
Speaker 1: She is almost as rich as the billionaires. She is
Speaker 1: an unbelievably well paid actress because of her Marvel and
Speaker 1: Avatar connections. So Zoe's at home count of dollars. Olivia
Speaker 1: Rodrigo that tracks too. She is political, That would not
Speaker 1: be surprising. She's in the middle of an album promo,
Speaker 1: so you might have usually expected her to be there.
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga an interesting one because she could have been
Speaker 1: expected to be there because she's in The Devil Wears
Speaker 1: prior of Too and the rest of the Well. Meryl
Speaker 1: wasn't there, but Meryl never goes, so that's not surprising.
Speaker 1: But Anne Hath the way Emily Blunt Stanley Tucci were
Speaker 1: all there.
Speaker 2: Stanley Tucci with Emily blount sister, it's always fun.
Speaker 1: So maybe Gaga, but also she's kind of said lately
Speaker 1: that she's going to focus on promoting things she wants
Speaker 1: to promote rather than just being around. Lewis Hamilton come on,
Speaker 1: like he's literally dating Kim Kardashian, who's extremely bezos adjacent.
Speaker 1: I don't think that was a political.
Speaker 3: Let's get to the big guns. Some were missing, right,
Speaker 3: some who we might have realized. Sarah Jessica Parker.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, Sarah Jessica I reckon. That is probably I
Speaker 1: would say that's almost definitely a boycott. But she went
Speaker 1: to support Anna at a dinner, but she didn't.
Speaker 3: Go to the There was a dinner on the weekend
Speaker 3: before the gala. It probably would have been more fun.
Speaker 1: Anyways, she said anything, No, she hasn't, but she I
Speaker 1: think she was in support of the New New York mayor. Right,
Speaker 1: And obviously he didn't go, but then I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: expected him to go, and he did post about it.
Speaker 1: They posted a series of let's sell a the real
Speaker 1: heroes of fashion and you know, celebrated workers behind the
Speaker 1: scenes and particular designers and things. So yes, so Sarah
Speaker 1: Jessica Parker I reckon could be a boycott. But then
Speaker 1: they're saying, you know, j Lo, I don't think Jalo
Speaker 1: was boycotting. I just think she's tired.
Speaker 3: Harry Styles.
Speaker 1: Harry Styles is in the middle of record of rehearsing
Speaker 1: for his tour. He's in a studio in bethnal Green
Speaker 1: running through it. Not that I've been stalking him. Justin Bieber,
Speaker 1: he's just done Coachella. Boy needs to lie down. Miley
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, she never goes, and I don't think she's so.
Speaker 1: I think that some of the boycott cots are not
Speaker 1: boy I.
Speaker 3: Think that's right. But it's interesting that some of the
Speaker 3: tech billionaires it clearly got to them a little bit.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting that Jeff did not walk the red
Speaker 3: carpet with Lauren. That's very unusual. They do everything together.
Speaker 3: We've learned this from various pieces about them and Lauren's
Speaker 3: dress being very boring. Do we think that was intentional.
Speaker 1: A little bit understated for Lauren, Yeah, but I think
Speaker 1: it was had a very specific art reference. It was
Speaker 1: the same dress as someone called Madame X and it's
Speaker 1: like scandalous women.
Speaker 3: Yep. It's interesting though, because Jeff did walk the carpet
Speaker 3: in twenty thirteen when Amazon sponsored the event. There was
Speaker 3: no outrage back then when Amazon sponsored the event and
Speaker 3: he walked with Mackenzie then Mackenzie Bezos his wife at
Speaker 3: the time. Mark Zuckerberg also made his Met Gala debut
Speaker 3: with his wife, Priscilla Chan, and they also didn't walk
Speaker 3: the red carpet, which I thought was interesting because it's
Speaker 3: kind of like, well, you want to be at the
Speaker 3: glamorous event, but you don't want the attention of being there.
Speaker 1: Do you think they might have been encouraged not to.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone encourages Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos
Speaker 3: to do anything would have worked exactly. But there were
Speaker 3: some tech willionaires who did walk the carpet. Google founder
Speaker 3: Sergei Brinn. He showed up on the red carpet with
Speaker 3: his girlfriend. Her name is Gaylyn Gilbert Soto. The New
Speaker 3: York Times describes her as a con conservative gut health influencer.
Speaker 1: That is one of the six job title Claire.
Speaker 3: Do you think that there's something inherently conservative about gut health?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because gut health is very don't take antibiotics and
Speaker 2: don't take antibiotics is very That's what it's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which used to be a sort
Speaker 1: of crunchy hippie vibe, but these days has come back
Speaker 1: around it.
Speaker 3: I thought it was just you know, drink your com
Speaker 3: your chart, but no, it means it can.
Speaker 2: Be very I feel like there's it's a short road
Speaker 2: from like gut health gut health to to anti vacs.
Speaker 2: Don't ever give your children antibiotics with my sour crow.
Speaker 3: And of course I'm AROUNDA was there. I just have
Speaker 3: to add she was there with Snapchat founder Evanstein on
Speaker 3: the carpet, of course.
Speaker 1: Possibly the biggest gun that I haven't mentioned though, is Zendaya.
Speaker 1: She does always go. Usually she didn't go, and that
Speaker 1: read like a boycott. And some people are saying, if
Speaker 1: your boycotting, say you're boycotting. I don't think so necessarily.
Speaker 1: You don't want to necessarily make everything about your politics.
Speaker 1: But I just have one question. I think that big
Speaker 1: charity galas of all types have always been, have always
Speaker 1: reflected the moment therein and they've always been a path
Speaker 1: to accessing status in a particular society. Watch the Gilded Age,
Speaker 1: It's all about that.
Speaker 3: And Nixon notably said that she thought it was great
Speaker 3: that the mayor didn't go.
Speaker 1: Yes, but like you know, you're reflecting the time. So
Speaker 1: you're going a big gala ball is the way you
Speaker 1: get all the fancy people together. This being a tech
Speaker 1: bro billionaire ball is very reflective of the moment we're
Speaker 1: living in, right, So is it surprising in any way
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties New York society. It was all
Speaker 1: about glitz and flash and Donald Trump, and now we're
Speaker 1: like again, I don't know. I kind of feel like,
Speaker 1: what did we expect to happen?
Speaker 3: No, that's right, But I think that the group that
Speaker 3: people are most angry at it's not the people who
Speaker 3: went in their pretty dresses. It's not the people who
Speaker 3: didn't go and stay quiet about it. It's the people
Speaker 3: who went but then tried to have their cake and
Speaker 3: eat it too. See.
Speaker 2: I'm not as frustrated about this because Sarah Paulson is
Speaker 2: getting a hole at a crap because she wore a
Speaker 2: dress that then and then had a blindfold that was
Speaker 2: a dollar bill, and it was people like it's making
Speaker 2: a statement about about like eating the rich.
Speaker 3: Well, she herself said that it was a statement about
Speaker 3: the one.
Speaker 2: Besides yes, and and I thought that was like a
Speaker 2: far swing. But the dress is actually called like the
Speaker 2: one percent by the artist, the designer who designed it,
Speaker 2: and the mask was called blinded by Money, and it
Speaker 2: was a statement on greed and corruption that comes with
Speaker 2: extreme power. I think it's a little bit unfair to
Speaker 2: look at her and say, well, you've got a net
Speaker 2: worth of twelve million dollars at which how does anyone
Speaker 2: calculate anyone's net worth on the internet? But you have
Speaker 2: a net worth of that you're at this event, how
Speaker 2: dare you then make a protest when it's like, well,
Speaker 2: isn't that exactly how how you do it?
Speaker 3: Don't you go in? And well, people do have a
Speaker 3: history of using that platform. So Alexandra Ocazio Cortez, who
Speaker 3: is a Democratic congresswoman from New York, famously wore a
Speaker 3: dress on the Megala red carpet a couple of years
Speaker 3: ago which said tax the rich. But people actually have
Speaker 3: the same criticism for her. To your point, Holly, the
Speaker 3: met Gala in some corners has always been seen as
Speaker 3: a kind of repulsive show of excess and decadence, and
Speaker 3: she got a lot of aoc got a lot of
Speaker 3: flak for even attending the event back then, reading the
Speaker 3: canapasey while saying.
Speaker 1: You guys are discussing while Charlie free directions.
Speaker 2: But if you're not there, you don't have a microphone
Speaker 2: to say anything about the event, do you know? Well,
Speaker 2: I guess you do. I guess like Vende could opposed
Speaker 2: to something on Instagram.
Speaker 3: If you want Zendaya not going definitely took the air
Speaker 3: out of the room when that announcement came out, And
Speaker 3: I guess it wasn't an announcement so much as a
Speaker 3: news update. Everyone kind of went, that's big. When Zendeia's
Speaker 3: not there, it's big.
Speaker 2: Because she's always one of the coolest on the carpet.
Speaker 2: Does something really original, remember that, like bloody light up
Speaker 2: dress and she.
Speaker 3: Oh, but there was a bathroom selfie. Some things always
Speaker 3: stay the same, right, and you saw this by Yes,
Speaker 3: it's always an iconic bathroom selfie. It's always the thing
Speaker 3: you want to look for. And there was an amazing
Speaker 3: one that had you know, the Margo Robbie all the
Speaker 3: people in it. But one of the things that was
Speaker 3: most striking about that And so I saw that in
Speaker 3: the wild last night and I was like, why is
Speaker 3: there an exceptionally beautiful woman in the middle of that
Speaker 3: who is wearing a quarter zip sweatshirt? I was like,
Speaker 3: was she at that party?
Speaker 1: And then it's having a lot of headlines today because
Speaker 1: she is actually a very famous model.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually love the story behind this. Her name
Speaker 3: is Bavitha Mandava and she that what she wore was
Speaker 3: a quarterzip jumper essentially and what looked like jeans. It
Speaker 3: turns out they weren't just any jeans. The jeans were
Speaker 3: made with silk muslin and had a blue denim effect.
Speaker 3: My jeans today have a blue denim effect. And it's
Speaker 3: a very important iconic look because she opened Chanell's show
Speaker 3: in December, which was on the New York City Subway,
Speaker 3: wearing essentially that outfit, and the fashion world lost their mind.
Speaker 3: That show was like considered extremely groundbreaking, and she was
Speaker 3: the first Indian model to open a Chanel show and
Speaker 3: she is now the first South Asian ambassador for Chanel.
Speaker 3: And incidentally, did you notice that Margot Robbie, who was
Speaker 3: also Chanel ambassador, It was right next to her in
Speaker 3: that photo. So Chanell must have been just so happy
Speaker 3: about the whole thing.
Speaker 1: I know, but it just she just looked so out
Speaker 1: of place.
Speaker 3: But that's what made it so good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I was like wandered into the shop. But
Speaker 1: she also read all about it and I was amazing.
Speaker 1: Yet she didn't have to have a bubble machine boobs.
Speaker 3: And then that look that she wore on the Chanel
Speaker 3: catwalk was actually a nod in turn to how she
Speaker 3: was discovered. I love this so much. She was a
Speaker 3: grad student m YU and she was discovered on the
Speaker 3: New York City subway waiting for a train. One would
Speaker 3: imagine probably wearing a similar outfit to the one she
Speaker 3: is now wearing in a much more fabulous incarnation at
Speaker 3: the metgala.
Speaker 1: But you were obsessed with another red carpet walk.
Speaker 2: Yes, because I am a basic bitch. If, like I swear,
Speaker 2: if there was like a thermometer for like, what's what
Speaker 2: does the basic bitch think about anything that's happening in
Speaker 2: the world right now? It comes over me and it's
Speaker 2: like bing bing bing bing bing because I saw the
Speaker 2: red carpet photos of Hugh Jackman in Suton Foster and
Speaker 2: I think I was sitting opposite you and Holly and I.
Speaker 3: Said, oh oh, was like I don't and I'm like,
Speaker 3: howm my.
Speaker 1: Here has it been?
Speaker 3: Now? Not that many at least well he was.
Speaker 2: Hugh Jackman was on the Red carpet with Debory Furnace
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: My group chats are very divided on this. Some love
Speaker 3: the two of them together and some are talking about
Speaker 3: deb Prowley.
Speaker 1: Do you have to not debut your relationship after a
Speaker 1: divorce five years, ten years? What do we want?
Speaker 2: There are no rules, but I am allowed to go
Speaker 2: oh poor deb Oh, no, I hate that I am allowed.
Speaker 2: And then the tabloids, because again I'm a basic bitch.
Speaker 2: The tabloids were like, hey, basic bitches, We've made up
Speaker 2: a story for you. So there are sources in Inverata
Speaker 2: commas who say that Debrale Furnace was a huge fan
Speaker 2: of the event and the decision to bring Sutton Foster
Speaker 2: was a final blow to deb And what I didn't
Speaker 2: realize when I went really deep on this was some
Speaker 2: Foster's wearing a ring, like they think that you proposed
Speaker 2: in January and they think they're going to have some
Speaker 2: trend in your wedding.
Speaker 1: And is that all are not allowed? He's not allowed
Speaker 1: to marry again, not ever, not ever.
Speaker 3: I I don't know about that.
Speaker 1: How do you know that, Deborah Lee Furness. This is
Speaker 1: what I don't like about this narrative is it victimizes
Speaker 1: a woman who maybe is totally done with that, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. She obviously she made up some
Speaker 1: statements that made it clear she was not happy when
Speaker 1: that relationship broke down, But again three years ago, so
Speaker 1: now she might be living her absolute best life. Thank
Speaker 1: god I don't have to go to the met gala
Speaker 1: with that guy.
Speaker 3: She disagrees politically too. We don't know anything about it,
Speaker 3: like she was kind of famously a conservative political voice
Speaker 3: because he is the godparent of Rupert Murdock and Wendy
Speaker 3: Dang's children. Also, he's very close with Avanka Trump. So
Speaker 3: no one was surprised to see Hugh at the slightly
Speaker 3: maga codd metgala.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, he's unfair, And I know no one's crying
Speaker 1: for the celebrities, but I think it's unfair to brand
Speaker 1: everybody who was at that red carpet as maga.
Speaker 3: Co Oh no, no, no, I did too, But I just
Speaker 3: I'm saying that he's not exactly Alexandra Orcasio Cortez. No
Speaker 3: one would be expecting him to make a big political
Speaker 3: statement about the taxing the rich. No, he's very like
Speaker 3: to promote.
Speaker 1: In a moment, what the heck was all that Baldoni
Speaker 1: Lively business about? If we've both basically ended with nobody
Speaker 1: winning and no money changing hands. So moments before one
Speaker 1: Blake Lively swept onto the met gala carpet looking a
Speaker 1: bit like Cinderella, very trademark minus the bluebird. She didn't happen.
Speaker 1: She always said exactly body, She's pretty good all that stuff.
Speaker 1: But moments before that, a statement dropped into the inboxes
Speaker 1: of major press outlets, including People, New York Times and
Speaker 1: so on, and it read the end product the movie.
Speaker 1: It ends with Us is a source of pride to
Speaker 1: all of us who worked to bring it to life.
Speaker 1: And with no context, Everyone's like, why are we reading this?
Speaker 1: Raising awareness and making a meaningful impact in the lives
Speaker 1: of domestic violence survivors and all survivors is a goal
Speaker 1: that we stand behind. It becomes clear this is a
Speaker 1: joint statement from Blake Lively's team and Justin Baldoni's team
Speaker 1: about the court case we've all been obsessed about for years.
Speaker 1: We acknowledge the process, presented challenges, did it.
Speaker 3: Recollections and recognized concerns raised by mes Lively deserved to
Speaker 3: be heard.
Speaker 1: We remain firmly committed to workplaces free of improprieties and
Speaker 1: unproductive environments. This is one of those statements that so
Speaker 1: many lawyers were involved in drafting that it.
Speaker 3: I hate an unproductive environment and I'm with that.
Speaker 1: That's fair. It is our sincere hope that this statement
Speaker 1: brings closure and allows all involved to move forward constructively
Speaker 1: and in peace, including a respectful environment online. And in
Speaker 1: the hope of moving forward constructively and in peace, Blake
Speaker 1: goes to the met gal Yeah, yep. Now we'll get
Speaker 1: to whether or not they got their respectful environment online,
Speaker 1: But just a very quick catch up, because we would
Speaker 1: be here for a year if we went into all
Speaker 1: the ins and outs of what's been going on here.
Speaker 1: But it all started when Blake Lively. Do I need
Speaker 1: to explain who she is? Significant star actress, possessor of
Speaker 1: wonderful hair, one half of a very powerful Hollywood power couple,
Speaker 1: made a movie called It Ends with Us, based on
Speaker 1: one of the best selling books in the past decade
Speaker 1: by Colleen Hoover.
Speaker 2: And you guys are weird about it because I said
Speaker 2: this morning that it's objectively one of the worst movies
Speaker 2: I've ever seen. And you guys, it's fine. You guys
Speaker 2: were so mad well. I didn't stop you so mad well.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to that in a minute. The thing
Speaker 1: is is that making a movie based on one of
Speaker 1: the best selling books of the decade is smart business
Speaker 1: and lots of people wanted to do it. But the
Speaker 1: man who owned the rights was Justin Baldoni, who's a
Speaker 1: lesser known dude. He's an actor, producer, self proclaimed feminist. Done.
Speaker 1: Some Ted talks about it.
Speaker 3: Everything I know about this man I've learned against my
Speaker 3: will exactly done.
Speaker 1: Some Ted talks about it podcast with Liz Plank something
Speaker 1: something something. Anyway, the movie itself is about domestic balance.
Speaker 1: That is not a mystery or a surprise at his
Speaker 1: front and center in the plot. The movie got made,
Speaker 1: and the movie was a huge hit, proving Claire Stephens wrong.
Speaker 3: All I need to say.
Speaker 1: Against the modest production budget of twenty five million, it
Speaker 1: grossed around three hundred and fifty one million dollars. Huge movie, right,
Speaker 1: But before the hit part happened, obviously, it was obvious
Speaker 1: that things were for apart. Behind the scenes, everything had
Speaker 1: gone very very wrong. We're not going to take you
Speaker 1: through because again I know Klas Stevens has a PowerPoint
Speaker 1: on this somewhere. You It went very deep at the time.
Speaker 1: You were a great source of it.
Speaker 3: It was great. A lot of this was going down.
Speaker 2: I think maybe just as I submitted my books, and
Speaker 2: my reward to myself was finish your book and you
Speaker 2: can read all the legal poculars.
Speaker 1: Yes, and there was this press tour that was like
Speaker 1: separate red carpets and warring factions and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And then in December twenty twenty four, Lively sued Baldoni,
Speaker 1: accusing him of harassment, sexual misconduct, and a smear campaign
Speaker 1: on the set of their movie. She claimed that Baldoni
Speaker 1: conspired with publicists to preemptively destroy her reputation, hence the
Speaker 1: dodgy press tour after she privately accused him of sexually
Speaker 1: harassing her on the movie set. There were a lot
Speaker 1: of damning texts released, all hell broke loose. Then Baldoni countersued.
Speaker 1: He basically alleged that Lively and her husband Ryan Reynolds
Speaker 1: always wanted to take over this movie, the control of
Speaker 1: the script, to the edit, all the things that they
Speaker 1: had it in for him, and they used their very
Speaker 1: famous friends to intimidate and harass him.
Speaker 3: I'll never forget the email that when unanswered, that she
Speaker 3: sent to Matt Damon.
Speaker 1: Oh, I know. There were a lot of damning texts revealed.
Speaker 2: Again, sorry, the one to Ben Affleck where she like, oh,
Speaker 2: she just made an awkward joke about how she had
Speaker 2: sent the email to Matt Damon and how great Matt
Speaker 2: Damon was, and I was like, honey, that's like Ben
Speaker 2: Affleck's biggest point of in security is comparing himself to
Speaker 2: Matt Damon and you don't know the idiots and your
Speaker 2: correspondence with Ben.
Speaker 1: And so here we are suddenly, just weeks before this
Speaker 1: mess was all going to go to court, all these
Speaker 1: cases have been it.
Speaker 3: Hadn't even gone to court.
Speaker 1: No, some things had been dropped dropped. So first of all,
Speaker 1: Baldoni's case against Lively got dropped, and some elements of
Speaker 1: Lively's case against him got like so there was all
Speaker 1: that was stuff, but it was it was meant to
Speaker 1: go to court I think on May eighteen, so soon. Wow,
Speaker 1: And days before it's been disappeared. Lawyers have made millions,
Speaker 1: reputations have been trashed and nobody apparently no money exchanged
Speaker 1: hands between the two parties, and no one, as you
Speaker 1: as evidenced by that really confusing press release, nobody is
Speaker 1: saying that they've won or not. Claire does the fact
Speaker 1: that Blake Lively stepped onto the met Gala carpet the
Speaker 1: minute that happened signaled that she sees this as victory
Speaker 1: or that she'd liked to pretend the whole thing didn't happen,
Speaker 1: And how the hell does she move forward?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Claire, what does that mean that she shot up
Speaker 3: at the Metgala?
Speaker 1: One?
Speaker 2: I think it's genius. I always think that the best
Speaker 2: publicity in response to this stuff is to be around
Speaker 2: and change the narrative, like changing a different direction. Celebrities
Speaker 2: are so clever that it is no coincidence that this
Speaker 2: statement came out when it did and that then she
Speaker 2: was on a red carpet, because you just you know
Speaker 2: that there's so much going on in the world. People
Speaker 2: are going to be all the celebrity reporters are going
Speaker 2: to be distracted, just like the zones.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And.
Speaker 2: It's the same reason it always happens. When I was
Speaker 2: editor in chief, the local Australian celebrities would always announce
Speaker 2: their breakup at like five pm on a Friday, and
Speaker 2: it's like, you know.
Speaker 3: The journals have gone to drinks or boxing day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, we've gone to drinks, you know
Speaker 2: that West Skeleton stuff on the weekends.
Speaker 3: We're not going to go as hard on this story.
Speaker 2: So I think it was smart that it was released
Speaker 2: when it was, and it was smart that she turned
Speaker 2: up at the met gala and that she reminded everyone
Speaker 2: I look really good in address.
Speaker 1: You to figure but disagree because what immediately happened the
Speaker 1: minute she opened her mouth.
Speaker 2: Well, this is what's interesting that depending on your algorithm,
Speaker 2: and depending on what side of the Internet you're on,
Speaker 2: there are two very different stories. So on certain apps,
Speaker 2: the story I'm saying is this was a win for
Speaker 2: Blake Lively that, for example, the line at the end
Speaker 2: of that statement including a respectful environment online, that that
Speaker 2: was very much acknowledging what had happened to her, which
Speaker 2: was all the allegations about manufactur orchestrated campaign.
Speaker 1: Because that is the thing that I will take away
Speaker 1: from this mess the most, is that seeing the messages
Speaker 1: between Baldoni's press people and him about ways that you
Speaker 1: can use and manipulate social media to dent somebody's reputation
Speaker 1: is not just like when you see suddenly start seeing
Speaker 1: everywhere lots of tiktoks around of like, look at this
Speaker 1: interview with this person, doesn't she come across a bit
Speaker 1: like this but there can be a lot more behind it.
Speaker 1: And this is also things that we pointed out about
Speaker 1: amber Hood joining the amber Hood Johnny deppcayse that there
Speaker 1: can be a really orchestrated dark arts going on there,
Speaker 1: and certainly the examples that were pinging back and forward
Speaker 1: between Justin Baldoni and his reps suggested that I knew that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's there's a lot of arguments that
Speaker 2: that line in particular is about what she went through,
Speaker 2: because she really has been torn apart on the internet. However,
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that she turns up at the met Gala.
Speaker 2: She there's she clearly you could actually tell from her
Speaker 2: speaking when she was interviewed that she was nervous, that
Speaker 2: she was trying, like, I can't put my foot in it.
Speaker 3: I can't like that.
Speaker 2: There have been viral interviews of her for a couple
Speaker 2: of years now all over the Internet of her just
Speaker 2: saying slightly the wrong thing in an interview, and it
Speaker 2: becomes that she's an awful person. Blake Lively did an
Speaker 2: interview on the met Gala red carpet and it has
Speaker 2: been analyzed to death, and people think she was rude
Speaker 2: to the interviewer in this instance, well, you look gorgeous.
Speaker 4: I am wearing Jackson weederhot gorgeous, thank you beautiful hair.
Speaker 4: She yeah, you look studying. And this is archival versace,
Speaker 4: but they met a fid it by adding a big
Speaker 4: beautiful train. So it's a piece from two thousand and six.
Speaker 4: And it was just such an honor to be able
Speaker 4: to wear this gorgeous, gorgeous gown. It looks like a
Speaker 4: sunrise and a sunset and watercolor and gorgeous range shworts, jewelry.
Speaker 4: But this this, but these, this is a Judith leberbag.
Speaker 4: And we were trying to find a piece of famous
Speaker 4: iconic art to put on and make it look like
Speaker 4: it was in a frame. And then I said, would
Speaker 4: you actually, if you're gonna make it custom, would you
Speaker 4: do my kid's art? So my kids each painted a painting,
Speaker 4: a watercolor painting. So each of my four kids did this.
Speaker 1: That is so spoo especial.
Speaker 4: So I have them with me.
Speaker 2: And that has been interpreted as her being a bit,
Speaker 2: as her being dismissive, as her being self scentered. The
Speaker 2: other thing that's been I think we want to know
Speaker 2: what this is.
Speaker 1: So here's my challenge to your strategy, be public, give
Speaker 1: them things to talk about, because she can't get away
Speaker 1: from this narrative now for some time, it's been years
Speaker 1: of her lit like every time she opens her mouth.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people invested in you're a terrible person,
Speaker 1: as you say, so they're just going to find ways
Speaker 1: to say that over and over again. In the way
Speaker 1: that the Internet is now very invested in hating Blake
Speaker 1: Lively a certain so, just in the way that the
Speaker 1: internet's very invested in hating Megan Markele. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what she does, what she says, where she goes. You
Speaker 1: can't win that game.
Speaker 2: One of the great arguments was it costs one hundred
Speaker 2: k for a plate at the Met gala, and part
Speaker 2: of her claim was the financial stress caused by Baldoni
Speaker 2: smear campaign. And it's like she's not paying for that
Speaker 2: one hundred k plate, neither is anyone people being like
Speaker 2: I thought you were arguing you were locked out of Hollywood.
Speaker 3: Doesn't look like you're locked out of Hollywood.
Speaker 2: And she had a bag where her interpretation of the
Speaker 2: art theme was that she got her four kids to
Speaker 2: draw a picture on each side of the back no
Speaker 2: self centered, made it about you.
Speaker 3: You wanted to.
Speaker 2: Claim authorship over this event, So there are people.
Speaker 1: This is why I think her best strategy is to
Speaker 1: go away for a few years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think the weird thing is I think
Speaker 2: if Justin Baldoni had turned up, I think there's something,
Speaker 2: there's an anonymity that we give men that we just
Speaker 2: don't give women like I just don't think he is
Speaker 2: going to be plagued in the same way. And I
Speaker 2: think it's Marina Hyde who says he'll probably do some
Speaker 2: low budget it.
Speaker 1: Will definitely have dented his possibilities of becoming a big name.
Speaker 1: I think that because, as Marina Hyde says in that
Speaker 1: story in The Guardian, she wrote a column about this,
Speaker 1: saying that the overarching lesson of this whole thing is
Speaker 1: never ever go to court, never ever ever. And they
Speaker 1: didn't actually end up in court, but still is that
Speaker 1: for the rest of time. Their names are now linked,
Speaker 1: every interview, every pro file, every project they do. This
Speaker 1: will always be part of the story in a way
Speaker 1: that it wouldn't if it hadn't entered the courts. But
Speaker 1: when I say I think go away free, I don't
Speaker 1: mean disappear like I don't mean silencing women. I mean
Speaker 1: work on projects, work on producer projects, hustle behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: do all your hollywoody stuff until you can come back
Speaker 1: to address this with more nuanced Look at Lena Dunnan.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about that a lot lately. Famously one
Speaker 1: of the most hated women on the internet for a
Speaker 1: period of time, couldn't put a foot right, couldn't do
Speaker 1: anything right, opened her mouth, everybody jumped on her. We
Speaker 1: know how the culture treats women who speak out about
Speaker 1: all kinds of things. There are local examples of this too.
Speaker 1: In a way. You've got to like let the air
Speaker 1: out of it and then come back when there's some
Speaker 1: nuance and distance.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean That her while best friend
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift would have told her that too, because Taylor,
Speaker 3: of course also famously disappeared and was getting around in
Speaker 3: large boxes for a while just to stay out of
Speaker 3: the public eye. That comment of Marina Hides about never
Speaker 3: go to court is interesting because a few years ago,
Speaker 3: someone in a professional context did something to me that
Speaker 3: made me want to take them to court, and so
Speaker 3: I went to talk to a lawyer about it, who
Speaker 3: have been recommended to me, and the lawyer heard me out.
Speaker 3: I was very grateful for the advice she gave me.
Speaker 3: She said, look, I think you have a strong case,
Speaker 3: but if you did this, everyone in your field would
Speaker 3: say that you were a nightmare, no matter what happened
Speaker 3: in the court case, no matter how right you are,
Speaker 3: and I do think you're right, it would affect you
Speaker 3: professionally and it would follow you professionally for the rest
Speaker 3: of your life. And I think getting that advice from
Speaker 3: someone who had kind of a monetary gain to taking
Speaker 3: the case on was something I really appreciated. And I
Speaker 3: just wonder if Blake Lively's legal advice turned out to
Speaker 3: be deeply misguided.
Speaker 1: I know. The sad thing about this argument I've never
Speaker 1: taken to court is, of course, that women putting up
Speaker 1: with sexual harassment at work are just always this guy
Speaker 1: from ever doing anywhere with it, because you're going to
Speaker 1: get your character smeared. And it might be on the
Speaker 1: scale of a Blake Lively, or it might be just
Speaker 1: the local gossip at the football club, like whatever it is,
Speaker 1: and that it's like we've seen this play out in
Speaker 1: massive letters across the sky that watch out, women will
Speaker 1: get you one way or another, and whether or not
Speaker 1: Blake Lively is particularly likable, is always nice to everybody?
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah, isn't the point?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is quite scary for women knowing that if
Speaker 2: you pursue, which is what an element of what Blake
Speaker 2: Lively was pursuing, a sexual harassment claim, that all your
Speaker 2: texts will be looked over and mocked and made fun of. Like,
Speaker 2: that's a really scary cost to pay. After the break
Speaker 2: James Valentine and why everyone's talking about the concept of
Speaker 2: a living wake. On the twenty second of April of
Speaker 2: this year, cast out musician and author James Valentine died
Speaker 2: age sixty four, leaving behind his son, his daughter, and
Speaker 2: his wife. The ABC veteran had terminal cancer, and he
Speaker 2: was widely loved by his audience, who had been listening
Speaker 2: to him for three decades. He had been transparent over
Speaker 2: the last two and a half years about his health.
Speaker 2: He was a very talented saxophone player and anyone who
Speaker 2: grew up in the eighties in Australia probably knows him
Speaker 2: as part of the band The Models and their iconic
Speaker 2: songs Barbados and Out of Mind, Out of Sight, and
Speaker 2: he was a Sydney radio presenter. Emilia and Holly, what
Speaker 2: was your connection to James Valentine as a radio personality?
Speaker 3: He was a really important figure in my childhood. He
Speaker 3: hosted a thing called the Afternoon Show on ABC when
Speaker 3: back when there were forty TV channels in this country.
Speaker 3: I remember those days, and he would host and it
Speaker 3: was cartoons, it was variety. And I never really listened
Speaker 3: to him on the radio, but I have such you know,
Speaker 3: in the way that those childhood figures loom large for you.
Speaker 3: I've always held such fondness and affection for him. And
Speaker 3: how about you, Hollie.
Speaker 1: He's clearly just an incredibly skilled communicator. I mean, I
Speaker 1: would be lying if I said I listened to that show.
Speaker 1: But anyone who knows how radio works, how the ABC works,
Speaker 1: so many people I know who know him. He was
Speaker 1: just clearly exceptionally good at what he did and very loved.
Speaker 2: It's a reminder I think that parasocial relationships have existed
Speaker 2: long before the Internet. The fact that when the news
Speaker 2: of his death came out there was a widespread kind
Speaker 2: of public grieving and a lot of listeners who called
Speaker 2: in the next day, and his wife and his kids
Speaker 2: were kind of saying how much that meant to have
Speaker 2: people remember their dad through sense of humor and his energy.
Speaker 2: So two and a half years ago he was diagnosed
Speaker 2: with esophagal cancer and he was given two different treatment options,
Speaker 2: and he chose the one that was a bit less
Speaker 2: invasive and would preserve the things he loved in life,
Speaker 2: which were presenting radio, playing saxophone and enjoying food. Then
Speaker 2: in January of this year, he's given a terminal diagnosis
Speaker 2: and his response to that diagnosis and what he planned
Speaker 2: to do next was documented in Monday's episode of Australian Story,
Speaker 2: presented by Lee Sales, and it started a huge conversation
Speaker 2: about the concept of a living wake, which he very
Speaker 2: fittingly held on Valentine's Day of this year. Here's what
Speaker 2: he said on the show stage.
Speaker 5: Four, terminal, inoperable, uncurable. I don't want to hear any
Speaker 5: of those words, let alone in the one sentence. So
Speaker 5: a friend suggested Tommy, maybe you should do a living wake,
Speaker 5: and oh, that sounds like fun. I will know the
Speaker 5: time and the day and so it'll be the last weekend.
Speaker 5: What do you do on that last weekend's dinner? Before?
Speaker 5: What do you think is that the last meal, I
Speaker 5: will probably know exactly when I'm going.
Speaker 1: That's so moving. So seeing the footage of his reference
Speaker 1: at the end there was due to the fact that
Speaker 1: he ultimately chose the time he was going to die, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he chose voluntary assisted dying and was very transparent
Speaker 2: around how he made that decision and what that decision entailed.
Speaker 2: For context, voluntary assisted dying is legal in all states
Speaker 2: in Australia and the Act except the Northern Territory, and
Speaker 2: obviously it's an incredibly complex and incredible, incredibly personal decision
Speaker 2: that has sparked. It's sparking more and more conversation the
Speaker 2: more we have and aging population and the more people
Speaker 2: are getting certain diagnoses that may keep them alive for
Speaker 2: a very long time, but the quality of that life
Speaker 2: may be poor, and him kind of taking people through
Speaker 2: that decision was a huge part of the Australian story.
Speaker 2: But it meant that he got to plan this living
Speaker 2: wake and there's footage of it, and he's got his
Speaker 2: family and friends there and there are so many familiar
Speaker 2: ABC faces and he's really good friends with Norman Swan,
Speaker 2: who he had on radio to discuss his diagnosis, like
Speaker 2: what all the different parts of the body were and
Speaker 2: what they did. And there was something so moving about
Speaker 2: seeing him on stage with a microphone at his own wake,
Speaker 2: basically saying, please come up to me and tell me
Speaker 2: stories and memories about us, because they are what's going
Speaker 2: to carry me through the next few weeks. And I
Speaker 2: guess I thought it must be such a relief for
Speaker 2: his family that then when you do a funeral, he's
Speaker 2: heard all the beautiful things that you're then going to
Speaker 2: say about him. I think this is really something we
Speaker 2: should we should all be looking at.
Speaker 1: If it's possible, this episode of Australian Story is really
Speaker 1: recommended viewing. I think, whether you know who James Valentine
Speaker 1: is or not, in a world where we hate to
Speaker 1: talk about death, and yet it touches everybody obviously, I
Speaker 1: mean that's a ridiculous thing to say, but it does
Speaker 1: touch everybody. I'd lost a friend to this same cancer
Speaker 1: when he was only forty six. It's like all cancers.
Speaker 1: It's a it's it's cruel and the idea that we're
Speaker 1: also we don't like talking about illness, we don't like
Speaker 1: talking about death, and seeing somebody such a skilled communicator
Speaker 1: like James Valentine in this episode talking about why he
Speaker 1: wanted to do the things he did, and they document
Speaker 1: the year so very like him talking about how very
Speaker 1: much clarified for him that he loved his work, so
Speaker 1: he didn't want to stop working. He loved playing his saxophone,
Speaker 1: so he wanted to try and avoid procedures that were
Speaker 1: going to stop him from doing that. That he really
Speaker 1: wanted to work, play and be with his family, and
Speaker 1: those are the things he wanted to spend his last
Speaker 1: year doing. It's just it's very powerful, it's very clarifying.
Speaker 1: And then to see him at his living way and
Speaker 1: he says, you know, it wakes People always say, oh,
Speaker 1: he would have loved me there, and he says, so
Speaker 1: I wanted to be there, And I just think it's
Speaker 1: very refreshing. I think, you know, I, as I said,
Speaker 1: I didn't have a direct listenership with Joe's Valentine, but
Speaker 1: people who do, and people I know who've worked with
Speaker 1: him said he brought joy all the time. And it
Speaker 1: feels like a gift to give be so honest and
Speaker 1: so open and so clear eyed in talking about this
Speaker 1: thing that nobody wants to talk about. Is like the
Speaker 1: last incredible gift that a great communicator could give, and
Speaker 1: his family is so amazing in it. I really recommend
Speaker 1: watching the show.
Speaker 2: There's a great quote in one of the ABC articles
Speaker 2: about his kind of decision making towards towards the end,
Speaker 2: where I think, as a psychologist says, dying people are
Speaker 2: not the actual act of dying is not the thing
Speaker 2: they're most scared of. They're scared of the invisibility and
Speaker 2: the absence of conversation around it. They're scared of people
Speaker 2: turning away and not wanting to be around them because
Speaker 2: of how confronting it is. And this was just such
Speaker 2: a reminder to look it straight in the eye and
Speaker 2: have the existential conversations with the people around you. The
Speaker 2: way that he spoke to his kids, and his kids
Speaker 2: were able to say, what do you think is going
Speaker 2: to happen afterwards?
Speaker 3: And I bet that that's so much harder to do
Speaker 3: than even it looks. It doesn't look easy, but I
Speaker 3: bet it's even harder to actually enact these principles that
Speaker 3: we can all agree are worthwhile.
Speaker 1: I love that his kids say that this was perfect
Speaker 1: for him in particular, this living weight, because he loved
Speaker 1: being center of attention. He loved a party, He loved
Speaker 1: being told I'm brad he was. I love the way
Speaker 1: they you know that families are really kind of I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm sure no families are perfect, but they're really healthy
Speaker 1: and loving when they can just call out that stuff
Speaker 1: about you and be like, he would love this because
Speaker 1: he just loves everybody tell him how great he is.
Speaker 3: So good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I loved that it wasn't a sanitized version
Speaker 2: because I think something I always bristle at is when
Speaker 2: you hear of somebody getting a terminal diagnosis or of
Speaker 2: you know, knowing that they're going to die. I bristle
Speaker 2: at the narrative of I guess almost toxic positivity that
Speaker 2: they're just like, well, I'm completely grateful and joyful. And
Speaker 2: then I feel for the people who don't have that response,
Speaker 2: which is completely bloody normal. But I loved there was
Speaker 2: a lot of light and shade in this. They talked
Speaker 2: about they went on a holiday, a family holiday to Bali,
Speaker 2: just before he was meant to get the surgery for
Speaker 2: his esophagus, and that the whole family's like, oh so
Speaker 2: bloody terrible holiday. Everyone was sick, everyone had covid Dad.
Speaker 3: Had BALI belly like. It's sort of I like that.
Speaker 2: In documenting this time, they've been able to show the
Speaker 2: highs and lows of what happened. But the nort Yeah,
Speaker 2: how normal it is. But the fact that he was
Speaker 2: able to do it his way, and that those conversations
Speaker 2: around what you want, what you don't want, they give
Speaker 2: so much empowerment in those in those final months and
Speaker 2: final days.
Speaker 1: Something completely different. There was celebrity baby news this week
Speaker 1: that I must mark because it was interesting. Cameron Diaz
Speaker 1: and Benji Madden just welcomed their third child. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting because Cameron is fifty three. Now. When I say that,
Speaker 1: I don't mean it's interesting in that way of like, oh,
Speaker 1: miracle baby, how did she do that? Why did you
Speaker 1: do that? Cameron Diaz. They announced that their little boy
Speaker 1: had come. They announced what his name was. His name
Speaker 1: is Nortous and he joins Raddix and Cardinal, which are
Speaker 1: all just the most rock star names of all time.
Speaker 1: They announced it. They didn't give any more details than that.
Speaker 1: It is safe to assume just because Cam's been on
Speaker 1: a press tour lately, she's been quite visible on a
Speaker 1: tour for a movie called Outcome, So she's been very visible,
Speaker 1: and it's safe to assume possibly that she wasn't heavily
Speaker 1: pregnant during that time, so likely that a surrogate was involved,
Speaker 1: but none of our business. But the thing that I
Speaker 1: found really interesting and refreshing that I wanted to unpack
Speaker 1: a little bit here is I wrote an essay a
Speaker 1: while ago when Sienna Miller was on the Red Carpet
Speaker 1: with her beautiful baby bump at I think forty three,
Speaker 1: and saying how we're entering a bit of an era
Speaker 1: of agelessness because perhaps of fertility technology, because of the
Speaker 1: different options that are open to us now, because of
Speaker 1: Hollywood and the wellness world's obsession with longevity, that we're
Speaker 1: in a different era now when it comes to age
Speaker 1: and women and kids. And I think nothing illustrates that
Speaker 1: more clearly than the fact that there haven't been a
Speaker 1: whole waterfall of stories about like, oh my god, a
Speaker 1: mom at fifty three and how could she and why
Speaker 1: would she? And da da da da. Is that now
Speaker 1: we're much more kind of like in the way that
Speaker 1: we might be about a man becoming a father at
Speaker 1: fifty three, because if you remove the biological complication from
Speaker 1: the advance for chility technology and all those things. It
Speaker 1: isn't really any different than the guy who's been doing
Speaker 1: that forever. Yeah, am I right? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, I think so too. The interesting thing is, as well,
Speaker 2: when I've looked at this story, how old Benji Madam? Well,
Speaker 2: nobody ever, as I don't know, I don't know, why
Speaker 2: didn't I.
Speaker 1: Google similar age? I think, well, let's find it happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're seven, so being a little bit younger
Speaker 2: Benji's forty seven, bloody spring chicken. But I it's interesting
Speaker 2: because whenever I see pregnancy baby news, it's obviously the
Speaker 2: life stage.
Speaker 3: I'man, I always google.
Speaker 1: How old is how?
Speaker 3: How old is that?
Speaker 1: Money is she?
Speaker 2: And you're right that we don't when we wouldn't blink
Speaker 2: an eye at a man having a child at fifty three.
Speaker 2: And obviously, if you want to think about any of
Speaker 2: the things that make rearing children.
Speaker 3: Difficult, the older you get.
Speaker 2: I mean, Amaran Diaz looks like a bloody pillar of health.
Speaker 2: She's gonna live forever, She's gonna live till she's undred.
Speaker 3: Well, I think what's interesting is that you said no
Speaker 3: one will blink, and I about a man. I wonder if, now,
Speaker 3: because women are also having babies older, all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: we're starting to blink her eyes at men having babies older.
Speaker 3: Men were allowed to do it for all of human history,
Speaker 3: but now that women are starting to do it, we're
Speaker 3: starting to revisit the whole idea of older parents because.
Speaker 2: We are interested, and there is actually more and more
Speaker 2: scientific research going into the health impacts of older because
Speaker 2: you know how, I'm called geriatric. Just for the record,
Speaker 2: I'm a geriatric mother. What age, I'm thirty five years old. No,
Speaker 2: they don't. They call it advanced material.
Speaker 3: They definitely call it just it's kind of coolrophistic.
Speaker 1: They definitely did call it geriatric though, when I had
Speaker 1: my second child at forty, I that's interesting.
Speaker 2: But if they call Brent geriatric, no, but they should
Speaker 2: have done it because he's elderly, I think.
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting. But then that also assumes.
Speaker 3: Like the judgments creeping in for both sexes now, is
Speaker 3: what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that assumes the idea about like we're becoming
Speaker 1: aware of the risks of older parents assumes assumes a
Speaker 1: lot about what might be going on here biologically. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: whereas if Cameron Diaz and Benji Madden and whoever else
Speaker 1: may be in their cohort are having are assessing all
Speaker 1: the risks, I'm sure they are. We know how health
Speaker 1: obsessed Hollywood is and making those choices, and there I think.
Speaker 1: I don't know that's interesting though, Amelia, where you say
Speaker 1: that that maybe the judgment, instead of fading away, just
Speaker 1: attaches itself to both genders.
Speaker 3: Well, because I don't think it is just about biology.
Speaker 3: I think it would be we need to put on
Speaker 3: the table to not be disingenuous. That a lot of
Speaker 3: people listening to this may have a reaction of if
Speaker 3: you have a baby at a more advanced age, shall
Speaker 3: we say, in your fifties, you automatically do a bit
Speaker 3: of maths, and you think, well, when that child in school,
Speaker 3: Cameron Diaz will be sixty three. I don't know how
Speaker 3: old Benji Madden will because I'm not that good at maths,
Speaker 3: but he'll be also kind of old. And so I
Speaker 3: think that's one of the concerns that people are now
Speaker 3: voicing a little bit more when no one ever used
Speaker 3: to say, well, Mick Jagger is going to be so
Speaker 3: old when his kids graduate but now we are starting
Speaker 3: to say that or feeling perhaps feeling more comfortable to
Speaker 3: say that.
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting. But then I think in
Speaker 1: this privileged bubble that we're talking about, longevity is an obsession.
Speaker 1: So I think that that is also changing. This right
Speaker 1: is that people are thinking rightly, wrongly whatever that with
Speaker 1: all the right advances and all the right supplements and
Speaker 1: all the right that they're imagining themselves at seventy three,
Speaker 1: at this kid's twenty first, like leaping around, I'm doing
Speaker 1: yoga and pilate, particularly if they.
Speaker 2: And Brian Johnson says he's got what is it the
Speaker 2: sperm of a twenty old? Think about that, man, Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I'm sure Cameron and Benji are having the same conversation.
Speaker 3: So Cameron has remember she literally wrote a book about
Speaker 3: sort of how to be healthy as you get older,
Speaker 3: so she's this is clearly on her radar that she's
Speaker 3: sort of anticipating she will be living a long time.
Speaker 1: That's always got time for on this Wednesday.
Speaker 3: At births, deaths, any marriages, No.
Speaker 1: There weren't any couples at the met gala, were they?
Speaker 1: They all went.
Speaker 2: Solo boycotting, boycotting marriage on the metal, or.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was like, unless that engagement wing comes from Amazon,
Speaker 1: we don't sink, perhaps in her body, her head and
Speaker 1: she did anyway. Thank you for being with us. Thank
Speaker 1: you for to our amazing team for helping us put
Speaker 1: the show together. We're going to be back in your
Speaker 1: ears on Friday, of course, and for subscribers with some
Speaker 1: scorelous gossip with Mia tomorrow. That's all.
Speaker 2: Goodbye, Bye, Mummyer acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
Speaker 2: on which we've recorded this podcast.