1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:13,672 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on HI. It's your 3 00:00:13,672 --> 00:00:16,072 Speaker 1: host Claire Murphy bringing you an update on one of 4 00:00:16,112 --> 00:00:20,232 Speaker 1: Australia's most notorious true crime cases, the murder of British 5 00:00:20,312 --> 00:00:23,791 Speaker 1: backpacker Peter Falconio. It's the case you might remember that 6 00:00:23,872 --> 00:00:28,112 Speaker 1: inspired the Australian horror film Wolf Creek. Bradley John Murdoch 7 00:00:28,352 --> 00:00:31,232 Speaker 1: was convicted of Falconio's murder back in December two thousand 8 00:00:31,272 --> 00:00:34,031 Speaker 1: and five. He was sentenced to life in prison, but 9 00:00:34,192 --> 00:00:39,071 Speaker 1: now there's been a significant development. Murdoch died of throat 10 00:00:39,071 --> 00:00:42,112 Speaker 1: cancy on July fifteen, twenty twenty five, at the age 11 00:00:42,111 --> 00:00:45,552 Speaker 1: of sixty seven. He'd been diagnosed with the terminal illness 12 00:00:45,632 --> 00:00:48,112 Speaker 1: back in twenty nineteen, and he was released from Alice 13 00:00:48,111 --> 00:00:51,712 Speaker 1: Springs's Correctional Center just last month to receive palliative care 14 00:00:51,751 --> 00:00:56,432 Speaker 1: at Alice Springs Hospital. But chillingly, his death came just 15 00:00:56,832 --> 00:01:00,592 Speaker 1: one day after the twenty fourth anniversary of Falconio's murder. 16 00:01:01,312 --> 00:01:05,752 Speaker 1: Despite years of investigation and repeated appeals from police, Murdoch 17 00:01:05,832 --> 00:01:09,192 Speaker 1: never discs close the location of Peter Falconio's remains and 18 00:01:09,232 --> 00:01:12,672 Speaker 1: his body has never been found. In a statement following 19 00:01:12,752 --> 00:01:17,192 Speaker 1: Murdock's death, Northern Territory Police said his silence has denied 20 00:01:17,191 --> 00:01:20,552 Speaker 1: the Falconio family the closure they have so long deserved. 21 00:01:20,831 --> 00:01:22,831 Speaker 1: They went on to say our thoughts are with the 22 00:01:22,831 --> 00:01:27,271 Speaker 1: Falconio family in the United Kingdom, whose grief, they said, continues. 23 00:01:27,911 --> 00:01:30,831 Speaker 1: In this episode, originally published back in twenty twenty one, 24 00:01:31,352 --> 00:01:35,632 Speaker 1: Jesse Stevens speaks with former Detective Superintendent Colleen Gwynn, the 25 00:01:35,752 --> 00:01:39,831 Speaker 1: lead investigator into Peter Falconio's disappearance and murder, about the 26 00:01:39,872 --> 00:01:40,911 Speaker 1: details of this case. 27 00:01:42,592 --> 00:01:45,511 Speaker 2: It's Saturday night in the middle of July two thousand 28 00:01:45,551 --> 00:01:49,792 Speaker 2: and one when Peter Falconio and Joanne Leeds travel down 29 00:01:49,792 --> 00:01:54,232 Speaker 2: the Stuart Highway in their Orange Combi van. Peter is 30 00:01:54,272 --> 00:01:57,912 Speaker 2: twenty eight and in the driver's seat, His girlfriend, twenty 31 00:01:57,952 --> 00:02:01,672 Speaker 2: seven year old Joanne is in the passenger seat. They've 32 00:02:01,672 --> 00:02:04,872 Speaker 2: been in Australia for a little over five months, first 33 00:02:04,992 --> 00:02:09,311 Speaker 2: arriving in Sydney on a working holiday visa. They'd come 34 00:02:09,352 --> 00:02:12,992 Speaker 2: from Brighton in England, prepared for the trip of a lifetime. 35 00:02:14,352 --> 00:02:17,632 Speaker 2: On June the twenty fifth, the young tourists departed Sydney 36 00:02:18,072 --> 00:02:22,592 Speaker 2: to embark on a road trip across Australia, starting in Canberra, 37 00:02:22,832 --> 00:02:28,032 Speaker 2: then on to Melbourne, Adelaide, Darwin and Brisbane. The couple 38 00:02:28,072 --> 00:02:30,952 Speaker 2: had been in Alice Springs and abound that night for 39 00:02:30,992 --> 00:02:35,432 Speaker 2: the Devil's Marbles south of Tenant Creek. The road is 40 00:02:35,472 --> 00:02:40,312 Speaker 2: long and the drive notoriously remote. You rarely see another car, 41 00:02:40,392 --> 00:02:42,792 Speaker 2: and the road extends as far as the eye can 42 00:02:42,832 --> 00:02:47,472 Speaker 2: see kilometers ahead. It's eerie if you stand on the 43 00:02:47,512 --> 00:02:51,032 Speaker 2: side of the road, it's so quiet and still, you're 44 00:02:51,072 --> 00:02:55,232 Speaker 2: able to hear your own heartbeat. They had stopped at 45 00:02:55,232 --> 00:02:58,752 Speaker 2: the roadhouse in Barrow Creek, but once they set off again, 46 00:02:58,952 --> 00:03:03,272 Speaker 2: they start to notice something unusual a car. They keep 47 00:03:03,312 --> 00:03:07,472 Speaker 2: expecting the car to overtake them, but it doesn't. Along 48 00:03:07,512 --> 00:03:10,672 Speaker 2: the expanse of road, a Toyota four wheel drive with 49 00:03:10,712 --> 00:03:14,752 Speaker 2: a large green canopy in the back approaches them. The 50 00:03:14,832 --> 00:03:18,632 Speaker 2: driver gestures for them to pull over. Something must be wrong. 51 00:03:19,912 --> 00:03:24,032 Speaker 2: There's a twinge of fear there alone, more than fifteen 52 00:03:24,112 --> 00:03:29,232 Speaker 2: thousand kilometers from home. News had emerged recently in Australia 53 00:03:29,352 --> 00:03:34,472 Speaker 2: and internationally of backpacker murders, with tourists like them disappearing 54 00:03:34,512 --> 00:03:38,232 Speaker 2: in the Australian outback. They pull the car over and 55 00:03:38,272 --> 00:03:42,072 Speaker 2: a man approaches them, and a few hours later, Northern 56 00:03:42,152 --> 00:03:52,912 Speaker 2: Territory police get a panicked phone call. I'm Jesse Stevens 57 00:03:52,992 --> 00:03:57,712 Speaker 2: and this is True Crime Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring 58 00:03:57,752 --> 00:04:01,072 Speaker 2: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people 59 00:04:01,152 --> 00:04:05,032 Speaker 2: who know the most about them. In today's episode, I'm 60 00:04:05,032 --> 00:04:10,072 Speaker 2: speaking with former Detective Superintendent Colleen Gwynn, the lead investigator 61 00:04:10,232 --> 00:04:23,671 Speaker 2: for the disappearance and presumed murder of Peter Falconio. You 62 00:04:24,032 --> 00:04:27,312 Speaker 2: received a phone call one day from a young police 63 00:04:27,312 --> 00:04:30,032 Speaker 2: officer who said that you better come into work because 64 00:04:30,632 --> 00:04:34,512 Speaker 2: a bloke was missing and his partner said that someone 65 00:04:34,552 --> 00:04:38,872 Speaker 2: had shot him when you arrived at work, Can you 66 00:04:38,952 --> 00:04:42,272 Speaker 2: remember those early details of the case, those sort of 67 00:04:42,352 --> 00:04:44,512 Speaker 2: first preliminary details that were coming out. 68 00:04:45,112 --> 00:04:48,192 Speaker 3: I remember it was about eleven o'clock at night and 69 00:04:48,432 --> 00:04:50,872 Speaker 3: I got a phone call which was a little bit 70 00:04:50,872 --> 00:04:53,472 Speaker 3: different to what you would get in Central Australia. Normally 71 00:04:53,512 --> 00:04:57,792 Speaker 3: it's something more akin to a bad car accident or 72 00:04:57,872 --> 00:05:00,871 Speaker 3: something that had happened in a remote area someone needed 73 00:05:00,872 --> 00:05:04,232 Speaker 3: to be airlifted. But to say that a woman had 74 00:05:04,232 --> 00:05:07,791 Speaker 3: claimed that her boyfriend had been was very much out 75 00:05:07,792 --> 00:05:10,152 Speaker 3: of the ordinary. So I got myself to work and 76 00:05:10,592 --> 00:05:14,592 Speaker 3: it just looked really stressed and chaotic. It didn't seem 77 00:05:14,632 --> 00:05:17,552 Speaker 3: to be organized. People were saying that there had been 78 00:05:17,592 --> 00:05:19,632 Speaker 3: this claim and they were going to send some people 79 00:05:19,712 --> 00:05:23,312 Speaker 3: up to Barrow Creek to interview this woman, but really 80 00:05:23,312 --> 00:05:26,472 Speaker 3: there didn't seem to be a sense of organization and 81 00:05:26,792 --> 00:05:29,632 Speaker 3: any sort of planning with the idea that this might 82 00:05:29,712 --> 00:05:33,671 Speaker 3: be something that would turn into a major investigation for 83 00:05:33,792 --> 00:05:37,392 Speaker 3: many years. So yeah, not really what you would expect. 84 00:05:37,472 --> 00:05:39,872 Speaker 3: And I guess when you see what happens over the 85 00:05:40,032 --> 00:05:43,431 Speaker 3: following few weeks and months, I think that first twenty 86 00:05:43,472 --> 00:05:45,792 Speaker 3: four hours was critical and probably did a lot more 87 00:05:45,912 --> 00:05:47,992 Speaker 3: damage than what we initially understood. 88 00:05:48,832 --> 00:05:52,192 Speaker 2: Can you describe, for anyone who hasn't been to Barrow 89 00:05:52,232 --> 00:05:55,712 Speaker 2: Creek and might not know that part of Australia very well, 90 00:05:56,672 --> 00:05:58,912 Speaker 2: just what it looks like, what the feel of it is, 91 00:05:58,992 --> 00:06:02,952 Speaker 2: because we hear that it's very very remote, but I 92 00:06:02,952 --> 00:06:05,512 Speaker 2: think a lot of people don't quite know how remote 93 00:06:05,632 --> 00:06:07,232 Speaker 2: this stretch of road actually is. 94 00:06:08,192 --> 00:06:11,032 Speaker 3: The Stretcher Road where the crime scene was. You can 95 00:06:11,072 --> 00:06:15,551 Speaker 3: see what appears like kilometers ahead. It's just very straight 96 00:06:15,592 --> 00:06:19,472 Speaker 3: that area road and what you have is very hard ground, 97 00:06:19,632 --> 00:06:22,232 Speaker 3: low salt brush, so you can see a long way 98 00:06:22,392 --> 00:06:24,832 Speaker 3: from If you stand in one area, you can see 99 00:06:24,872 --> 00:06:28,992 Speaker 3: three sixty around you. There's no heels. It's probably some 100 00:06:29,112 --> 00:06:31,791 Speaker 3: of the remotest area in Australia. 101 00:06:32,832 --> 00:06:36,632 Speaker 2: The two people involved, it was Joanne Lees who had 102 00:06:36,672 --> 00:06:43,192 Speaker 2: called the police, and her boyfriend Peter Falconio had gone missing. 103 00:06:44,272 --> 00:06:47,272 Speaker 2: They were traveling through Australia, weren't they. What did you 104 00:06:47,312 --> 00:06:49,952 Speaker 2: know about their movements before that night. 105 00:06:50,952 --> 00:06:54,712 Speaker 3: Yeah, they'd spent quite some time in Sydney. Joanne was 106 00:06:54,752 --> 00:06:58,552 Speaker 3: working in a bookstore. Peter had bought this comby van 107 00:06:58,632 --> 00:07:01,752 Speaker 3: and he was doing some work on it preparing for 108 00:07:01,792 --> 00:07:05,512 Speaker 3: this trip through remote Australia. That was his dream is 109 00:07:05,592 --> 00:07:09,072 Speaker 3: to go through Australia and kind of sleep rough. And 110 00:07:09,792 --> 00:07:12,872 Speaker 3: he wasn't interested in hanging around Sydney and nightclubs and 111 00:07:12,912 --> 00:07:15,912 Speaker 3: living it up. He wanted to get out and wanted 112 00:07:15,912 --> 00:07:18,672 Speaker 3: to go to places where no one else was around. 113 00:07:18,712 --> 00:07:21,192 Speaker 3: And they'd saved for many years for this holiday, and 114 00:07:21,232 --> 00:07:25,632 Speaker 3: this was their last holiday before they were to marry, 115 00:07:25,752 --> 00:07:28,832 Speaker 3: So they had planned to then go on to New 116 00:07:28,912 --> 00:07:32,552 Speaker 3: Zealand and onto other countries and then gradually make their 117 00:07:32,592 --> 00:07:35,832 Speaker 3: way back to the UK and settle down and have kids. 118 00:07:35,872 --> 00:07:38,792 Speaker 3: So they had invested a lot of money in this 119 00:07:38,992 --> 00:07:42,352 Speaker 3: trip and had saved significantly for many many years. 120 00:07:42,672 --> 00:07:45,152 Speaker 2: Where were they going that night when they were on 121 00:07:45,192 --> 00:07:45,672 Speaker 2: that road. 122 00:07:46,472 --> 00:07:49,112 Speaker 3: I don't think they had a destination in mind at 123 00:07:49,112 --> 00:07:54,152 Speaker 3: that point. They fueled up and then had decided to 124 00:07:54,272 --> 00:07:58,472 Speaker 3: drive until they had enough for driving. They'd intended to 125 00:07:59,032 --> 00:08:02,992 Speaker 3: come up to North Australia and then across to Western Australia, 126 00:08:03,112 --> 00:08:06,992 Speaker 3: so they had quite a long trip plan and they 127 00:08:07,032 --> 00:08:09,952 Speaker 3: were planning to spend months in that Combe van that 128 00:08:10,032 --> 00:08:12,552 Speaker 3: was going to be their home for the next few months. 129 00:08:12,872 --> 00:08:17,312 Speaker 2: When Joanne first did speak to police, what was her 130 00:08:17,472 --> 00:08:20,752 Speaker 2: version of events? What did she say had taken place 131 00:08:20,872 --> 00:08:21,472 Speaker 2: that evening? 132 00:08:22,192 --> 00:08:25,352 Speaker 3: Her story didn't change a great deal. There was some 133 00:08:25,392 --> 00:08:29,152 Speaker 3: confusion in some of the detail, but basically her account 134 00:08:29,392 --> 00:08:32,432 Speaker 3: was that her and Peter were driving along at some 135 00:08:32,592 --> 00:08:36,592 Speaker 3: point they realized there was a car behind them, and 136 00:08:36,631 --> 00:08:39,512 Speaker 3: then that vehicle, which we now know to be Bradley 137 00:08:39,592 --> 00:08:43,391 Speaker 3: Murdoch in his land Cruiser, had pulled up alongside them 138 00:08:43,752 --> 00:08:47,792 Speaker 3: and was pointing towards the rear of their vehicle as 139 00:08:47,792 --> 00:08:52,312 Speaker 3: if to indicate that something was wrong. So at that point, 140 00:08:52,392 --> 00:08:56,712 Speaker 3: Peter had pulled over and he got out of the car. 141 00:08:57,672 --> 00:09:00,112 Speaker 3: Joanne was then asked to move over to the driver's 142 00:09:00,152 --> 00:09:04,592 Speaker 3: seat and rev the engine, and what she then heard 143 00:09:04,912 --> 00:09:09,151 Speaker 3: was allowed bang. Her immediate thought was that was a 144 00:09:09,432 --> 00:09:13,432 Speaker 3: vehicle backfiring, but we now believed that was the gun shot, 145 00:09:13,512 --> 00:09:17,352 Speaker 3: the fatal shot that killed Peter. She was then confronted 146 00:09:17,432 --> 00:09:20,872 Speaker 3: by Bradley Murdock. He appeared at the driver's side door, 147 00:09:21,152 --> 00:09:24,432 Speaker 3: pointing a gun that she described at the time as 148 00:09:24,472 --> 00:09:28,752 Speaker 3: a Western type revolver. He pushes her over to the 149 00:09:28,792 --> 00:09:31,832 Speaker 3: passenger side and instructs her to bend forward and put 150 00:09:31,872 --> 00:09:36,552 Speaker 3: her hands behind her back. So Joanne through this whole idea, 151 00:09:36,752 --> 00:09:40,272 Speaker 3: She just fights for her life continually, and she refused. 152 00:09:41,392 --> 00:09:44,032 Speaker 3: He then put a gun to her head and she 153 00:09:44,432 --> 00:09:47,511 Speaker 3: subdued into compliance. She really thought that at this point 154 00:09:47,552 --> 00:09:48,832 Speaker 3: he was going to kill her. Who was going to 155 00:09:48,872 --> 00:09:51,832 Speaker 3: shoot her in the head. He then tied her hands 156 00:09:51,952 --> 00:09:54,912 Speaker 3: using the manacles that are now quite well known and 157 00:09:54,992 --> 00:10:00,232 Speaker 3: talked about, and forced her out of the vehicle. Murdock 158 00:10:00,312 --> 00:10:03,631 Speaker 3: straddles her and attempts to bind her feet, and she 159 00:10:03,712 --> 00:10:07,271 Speaker 3: just starts kicking, he gives up. She's tough. She just 160 00:10:07,392 --> 00:10:10,632 Speaker 3: keeps fighting and he punches her to the side of 161 00:10:10,672 --> 00:10:13,952 Speaker 3: the head and he lifts her and frog marches her 162 00:10:14,432 --> 00:10:18,792 Speaker 3: to the vehicle and then grabs her head and prevents 163 00:10:18,832 --> 00:10:21,631 Speaker 3: her from looking around. So clearly she's at that point 164 00:10:21,672 --> 00:10:25,352 Speaker 3: she's looking for Peter. She's wondering where he is, so 165 00:10:25,432 --> 00:10:30,752 Speaker 3: he deliberately forces her head forward and places her in 166 00:10:30,792 --> 00:10:34,992 Speaker 3: the back of his Yet she's very confused at this day. 167 00:10:35,072 --> 00:10:38,032 Speaker 3: She's probably can cast. All of this has happened very 168 00:10:38,072 --> 00:10:40,592 Speaker 3: quickly from the time that they first pull over to 169 00:10:40,632 --> 00:10:45,432 Speaker 3: this happening, and she's calling out, asking Murdoch what he'd 170 00:10:45,472 --> 00:10:51,712 Speaker 3: done with Peter, and he doesn't respond. She actually also says, 171 00:10:51,872 --> 00:10:55,192 Speaker 3: are you going to rape me? And at one point 172 00:10:55,232 --> 00:10:57,792 Speaker 3: he opens the back of the canopy and he just 173 00:10:57,832 --> 00:11:02,432 Speaker 3: says be quiet, or he would suit her. She realizes 174 00:11:02,472 --> 00:11:06,152 Speaker 3: that if she doesn't escape now, then she probably wasn't 175 00:11:06,432 --> 00:11:10,392 Speaker 3: ever going to survive this, so she slips down the 176 00:11:10,392 --> 00:11:13,272 Speaker 3: rear of the canopy and as soon as her feet 177 00:11:13,312 --> 00:11:16,672 Speaker 3: hit the ground, she runs towards the bush. She just runs. 178 00:11:16,712 --> 00:11:20,432 Speaker 3: She doesn't really know what direction she's running in, so 179 00:11:20,472 --> 00:11:25,352 Speaker 3: she hides behind a relatively small saltwush tree and curled 180 00:11:25,432 --> 00:11:27,712 Speaker 3: up in a ball with her knees tucked under her chin, 181 00:11:28,792 --> 00:11:32,912 Speaker 3: and then tried desperately to control her breathing. The fact 182 00:11:32,992 --> 00:11:37,112 Speaker 3: that she was able to hide there was probably a 183 00:11:37,152 --> 00:11:42,112 Speaker 3: miracle if you've seen that area, She was very, very fortunate. 184 00:11:43,592 --> 00:11:47,632 Speaker 3: After some time, she hears Murdoch's startner combee and drive 185 00:11:47,712 --> 00:11:50,952 Speaker 3: it north. He actually drives it off and hides it 186 00:11:51,152 --> 00:11:56,072 Speaker 3: in the bush, and she listens really carefully and she 187 00:11:56,152 --> 00:12:01,032 Speaker 3: can hear the gravel crunching and something being dragged or hauled, 188 00:12:01,952 --> 00:12:06,511 Speaker 3: she believed to be her boyfriend Peter. She then is 189 00:12:06,712 --> 00:12:11,752 Speaker 3: the second vehicle start then drive away. She's then left 190 00:12:11,912 --> 00:12:15,592 Speaker 3: under that salt bush, wondering basically what will happen next. 191 00:12:15,952 --> 00:12:19,552 Speaker 2: And how did she escape? How did she find anyone, 192 00:12:19,672 --> 00:12:22,832 Speaker 2: because as you say, this is such a remote area. 193 00:12:23,832 --> 00:12:25,832 Speaker 2: Did she manage to flag down a car? 194 00:12:26,592 --> 00:12:29,152 Speaker 3: So she sat there for some time, It was about 195 00:12:29,472 --> 00:12:33,752 Speaker 3: four or five hours. Because the biggest dilemma for Joanne 196 00:12:33,832 --> 00:12:36,992 Speaker 3: is anyone that may come along that road might either 197 00:12:37,072 --> 00:12:42,031 Speaker 3: be Murdoch or an associate of murder. So once she 198 00:12:42,272 --> 00:12:45,872 Speaker 3: heard what appeared to be the sound of a large truck, 199 00:12:46,152 --> 00:12:49,072 Speaker 3: which we now know was a road train. She thought 200 00:12:49,112 --> 00:12:52,152 Speaker 3: that that was safe or more likely to be safe 201 00:12:52,232 --> 00:12:56,352 Speaker 3: to come out, and she ran out and flagged the 202 00:12:56,432 --> 00:12:57,312 Speaker 3: road train down. 203 00:12:58,552 --> 00:13:02,592 Speaker 2: And so when she spoke to police and she's described 204 00:13:02,632 --> 00:13:05,912 Speaker 2: this series of events, was she able to describe what 205 00:13:05,952 --> 00:13:08,352 Speaker 2: the map and looked like who had attacked them. 206 00:13:09,072 --> 00:13:14,152 Speaker 3: Joanne's initial description was pretty spot on. She describes him 207 00:13:14,592 --> 00:13:19,432 Speaker 3: as a tall, white man. She describes his hair down 208 00:13:19,472 --> 00:13:23,672 Speaker 3: to quite remarkable detail, and she says that his hair 209 00:13:23,792 --> 00:13:26,552 Speaker 3: kind of had bright flecks in it. That was quite 210 00:13:26,632 --> 00:13:31,112 Speaker 3: interesting for me when I had initially read that, because 211 00:13:31,352 --> 00:13:34,312 Speaker 3: I had never seen someone describe that in my years 212 00:13:34,312 --> 00:13:37,312 Speaker 3: of policing, that someone had kind of these shiny patches 213 00:13:37,352 --> 00:13:39,992 Speaker 3: in their hair, and I thought, well, maybe that's bits 214 00:13:39,992 --> 00:13:44,152 Speaker 3: of gray that the offender had. It's interesting to note 215 00:13:44,152 --> 00:13:47,352 Speaker 3: at this point when I first met Bradley Murdoch, that's 216 00:13:47,392 --> 00:13:49,272 Speaker 3: one of the things I noticed if he had this 217 00:13:49,312 --> 00:13:52,271 Speaker 3: little it's kind of like his hair had this shine 218 00:13:52,312 --> 00:13:56,752 Speaker 3: to it, and that's what Joanne noticed. So in terms 219 00:13:56,792 --> 00:13:58,992 Speaker 3: of her ability to be able to pick up on 220 00:13:59,152 --> 00:14:03,352 Speaker 3: such minute detail when she's under such enormous dress, shows 221 00:14:03,352 --> 00:14:05,192 Speaker 3: what a remarkable woman she was. 222 00:14:06,312 --> 00:14:10,752 Speaker 2: When police received that call, they then went to the scene. 223 00:14:11,432 --> 00:14:15,232 Speaker 2: Was there any evidence left behind from either the perpetrator 224 00:14:15,472 --> 00:14:17,391 Speaker 2: or any sign at all of Peter. 225 00:14:17,952 --> 00:14:20,872 Speaker 3: What they find is blood that is on the road 226 00:14:20,992 --> 00:14:23,872 Speaker 3: and on the verge of the road. But you can 227 00:14:23,952 --> 00:14:26,952 Speaker 3: clearly see where someone's tried to cover that blood up 228 00:14:27,032 --> 00:14:29,552 Speaker 3: by pushing their gravel from the side of the road 229 00:14:29,632 --> 00:14:31,712 Speaker 3: on top of the blood that was on the road. 230 00:14:32,312 --> 00:14:34,312 Speaker 3: But there was certainly quite a bit of blood there 231 00:14:35,032 --> 00:14:37,792 Speaker 3: and off to the side of the road when you 232 00:14:37,872 --> 00:14:41,432 Speaker 3: looked along the fence line, it was the Combi van, 233 00:14:41,712 --> 00:14:44,792 Speaker 3: so it was clear that that was the scene of 234 00:14:44,832 --> 00:14:45,312 Speaker 3: the crime. 235 00:14:46,232 --> 00:14:50,472 Speaker 2: When Joanne came with her series of events, she was 236 00:14:50,752 --> 00:14:53,232 Speaker 2: the only real witness who had seen this that you 237 00:14:53,312 --> 00:14:58,952 Speaker 2: knew of. Was there any suspicion cast over Joanne herself 238 00:14:59,352 --> 00:15:02,592 Speaker 2: in those early days, weeks and months, the. 239 00:15:02,512 --> 00:15:06,912 Speaker 3: First few weeks of this investigation, If you look back hindsight, 240 00:15:06,952 --> 00:15:08,792 Speaker 3: there were some things that we've done well. There were 241 00:15:08,832 --> 00:15:12,832 Speaker 3: some things that weren't done particularly well. But in any 242 00:15:13,072 --> 00:15:17,432 Speaker 3: homicide such as this or suspicious murder or death, you've 243 00:15:17,472 --> 00:15:20,592 Speaker 3: always got to keep an open mind, particularly if the 244 00:15:20,632 --> 00:15:26,192 Speaker 3: offender is not evident immediately. Now it's a valid avenue 245 00:15:26,232 --> 00:15:31,592 Speaker 3: of investigation to look into the complainant or that person 246 00:15:31,672 --> 00:15:35,832 Speaker 3: that is closest to the victim or the decease in 247 00:15:35,832 --> 00:15:39,672 Speaker 3: this case, and of course that they looked at whether 248 00:15:39,792 --> 00:15:44,112 Speaker 3: she would have any motive to want to harm or 249 00:15:44,232 --> 00:15:47,752 Speaker 3: kill her partner at that point. So was she a 250 00:15:47,832 --> 00:15:50,952 Speaker 3: person of interests? Probably not, But did they keep an 251 00:15:50,992 --> 00:15:56,192 Speaker 3: open mind and consider that she could potentially have some involvement, Yes, 252 00:15:56,232 --> 00:15:56,672 Speaker 3: they did. 253 00:15:57,712 --> 00:16:02,632 Speaker 2: There was an early press conference where Joanne fronted the 254 00:16:02,712 --> 00:16:08,152 Speaker 2: media wearing an unfortunate T shirt. What did the shirt say? 255 00:16:08,472 --> 00:16:12,032 Speaker 2: And how do you think she came across? 256 00:16:13,032 --> 00:16:19,432 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's some footage that I often used in education 257 00:16:19,632 --> 00:16:24,592 Speaker 3: for detectives, particularly around how to use the media to 258 00:16:24,992 --> 00:16:28,832 Speaker 3: elicit information in relation to a major crime. Some real 259 00:16:28,832 --> 00:16:32,712 Speaker 3: mistakes were made there. So Joanne obviously didn't have any 260 00:16:32,752 --> 00:16:34,912 Speaker 3: clothes with her, so one of the things that the 261 00:16:34,992 --> 00:16:38,912 Speaker 3: police initially did was to assist her in buying some 262 00:16:39,232 --> 00:16:43,712 Speaker 3: clothes to get her through. And that shirt she chose 263 00:16:43,752 --> 00:16:49,072 Speaker 3: herself and then wore in that very important first media interview, 264 00:16:49,912 --> 00:16:54,552 Speaker 3: and I think it probably wasn't the best choice in 265 00:16:54,672 --> 00:16:58,432 Speaker 3: terms of clothing, and I think that's where the severe 266 00:16:58,512 --> 00:17:02,832 Speaker 3: judgment of Joanne Lee's first started. In these matters, the 267 00:17:02,872 --> 00:17:07,111 Speaker 3: public will always be suspicious, They will always judged victims, 268 00:17:07,232 --> 00:17:10,071 Speaker 3: and it happens time and time again, and we as 269 00:17:10,192 --> 00:17:13,552 Speaker 3: police really need to ensure that we provide the best 270 00:17:13,591 --> 00:17:17,351 Speaker 3: advice to protect victims from that sort of public scrutiny. 271 00:17:17,391 --> 00:17:20,511 Speaker 3: And I think in this case they failed Joanne in 272 00:17:20,591 --> 00:17:24,152 Speaker 3: allowing her to wear a shirt that says cheeky monkey 273 00:17:24,831 --> 00:17:28,552 Speaker 3: when she's pleading for the public for information that may 274 00:17:28,712 --> 00:17:33,992 Speaker 3: lead to the whereabouts of Peter or the identity of 275 00:17:34,032 --> 00:17:36,071 Speaker 3: the personal persons who are harmed him. 276 00:17:38,032 --> 00:17:42,231 Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jesse Stevens. 277 00:17:43,071 --> 00:17:47,272 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with former detective Superintendent Colleen Gwynn about the 278 00:17:47,311 --> 00:17:59,271 Speaker 2: disappearance and presumed murder of Peter Falconio. It was February 279 00:17:59,311 --> 00:18:03,272 Speaker 2: two thousand and two, that's about six months after Falconio's 280 00:18:03,311 --> 00:18:07,952 Speaker 2: disappearance when you were promoted to superintendant, which was the 281 00:18:08,192 --> 00:18:11,991 Speaker 2: head of crime in Alice Springs. Where was the case 282 00:18:12,472 --> 00:18:14,032 Speaker 2: at at that point? 283 00:18:14,631 --> 00:18:17,391 Speaker 3: Externally, if the public were looking at it, it probably 284 00:18:17,391 --> 00:18:20,032 Speaker 3: seemed to be that it was going through a progress 285 00:18:20,071 --> 00:18:25,792 Speaker 3: of excluding persons of interest based on investigative avenues and 286 00:18:26,671 --> 00:18:30,552 Speaker 3: process of elimination going through what was thousands of lines 287 00:18:30,591 --> 00:18:34,231 Speaker 3: of inquiry. But once I was promoted and I was 288 00:18:34,272 --> 00:18:38,431 Speaker 3: assigned this investigation, I went through a process of actually 289 00:18:38,431 --> 00:18:42,071 Speaker 3: just listening and watching and looking at what was going 290 00:18:42,111 --> 00:18:46,192 Speaker 3: on with the team at the time, and it became 291 00:18:46,591 --> 00:18:52,111 Speaker 3: really clear to me fairly quickly that the investigation lacked leadership, 292 00:18:52,151 --> 00:18:56,112 Speaker 3: and it lacked direction, and it lacked any valid and 293 00:18:56,151 --> 00:19:01,432 Speaker 3: thorough investigation plan that would increase the chances of identifying 294 00:19:01,792 --> 00:19:04,232 Speaker 3: the offender in this. So you know, there were some 295 00:19:04,311 --> 00:19:07,031 Speaker 3: things that I had to do immediately to try, and 296 00:19:07,351 --> 00:19:11,391 Speaker 3: I guess, improve our chances of finding Peter dead or 297 00:19:11,472 --> 00:19:15,672 Speaker 3: alive and finding out who was responsible. My first three 298 00:19:15,752 --> 00:19:19,192 Speaker 3: priorities was to look at the team and understand who 299 00:19:19,232 --> 00:19:22,951 Speaker 3: in that team actually was engaged and had belief in 300 00:19:23,032 --> 00:19:25,911 Speaker 3: Johanna as the victim, and who was there for the 301 00:19:26,032 --> 00:19:28,792 Speaker 3: right reasons and wanted to see this to the end. 302 00:19:29,631 --> 00:19:33,831 Speaker 3: The other part is to look at the detail. And 303 00:19:33,952 --> 00:19:36,271 Speaker 3: I'm not a details person by any means. I'm the 304 00:19:36,272 --> 00:19:38,591 Speaker 3: worst person for detail. But I had to go into 305 00:19:38,671 --> 00:19:41,591 Speaker 3: the detail, and I sat there day and night and 306 00:19:41,752 --> 00:19:45,272 Speaker 3: read case note entry after case not entry to understand 307 00:19:45,831 --> 00:19:48,231 Speaker 3: what they had done, where they were at, and really 308 00:19:48,391 --> 00:19:53,351 Speaker 3: what direction the investigation should go into. And I started 309 00:19:53,351 --> 00:19:56,311 Speaker 3: to set priorities. And one of the things I also 310 00:19:56,431 --> 00:20:00,391 Speaker 3: did was to try and limit the amount of influence 311 00:20:00,512 --> 00:20:05,631 Speaker 3: that the senior police had on the investigation. And my 312 00:20:05,871 --> 00:20:09,151 Speaker 3: priority was to let the investigators do the investigating and 313 00:20:09,311 --> 00:20:11,751 Speaker 3: they could get on with managing the police force. And 314 00:20:11,871 --> 00:20:14,111 Speaker 3: that was probably one of the hardest discussions I've ever 315 00:20:14,151 --> 00:20:17,311 Speaker 3: had with the Deputy Commissioner at the time, but to 316 00:20:17,351 --> 00:20:20,311 Speaker 3: his credit, he accepted that and let us get on 317 00:20:20,391 --> 00:20:21,232 Speaker 3: with doing the job. 318 00:20:21,871 --> 00:20:26,712 Speaker 2: You also chose a team who had varied skills, one 319 00:20:26,752 --> 00:20:29,672 Speaker 2: of whom was renowned for being incredibly good with detail. 320 00:20:30,431 --> 00:20:33,432 Speaker 2: A key to the case was the DNA found on 321 00:20:34,151 --> 00:20:39,071 Speaker 2: Joanne's shirt. Can you talk us through the breakthrough that 322 00:20:39,591 --> 00:20:42,631 Speaker 2: came from that and how you managed to actually obtain 323 00:20:42,871 --> 00:20:46,672 Speaker 2: DNA that led you to this key suspect. 324 00:20:47,032 --> 00:20:49,151 Speaker 3: It's like in any case. Now, look, this is nearly 325 00:20:49,192 --> 00:20:52,151 Speaker 3: twenty years ago and DNA was the round, but it 326 00:20:52,192 --> 00:20:56,351 Speaker 3: was still fairly new. So we had some DNA profiles. 327 00:20:56,391 --> 00:20:59,552 Speaker 3: We had one on joanne shirt, had one on the 328 00:20:59,591 --> 00:21:02,631 Speaker 3: gearstick of the combie, and one on the steering wheel. 329 00:21:03,792 --> 00:21:07,391 Speaker 3: So we had a profile, but the profile didn't match 330 00:21:07,431 --> 00:21:10,792 Speaker 3: anyone on our DNA system. If you think back twenty 331 00:21:10,831 --> 00:21:15,032 Speaker 3: years ago, the National DNA database was still relatively new, 332 00:21:15,272 --> 00:21:19,071 Speaker 3: so there wasn't the number of profiles that they would 333 00:21:19,111 --> 00:21:22,511 Speaker 3: have now. And so we had the profile, but we 334 00:21:22,591 --> 00:21:27,232 Speaker 3: didn't have a match. So we looked through our persons 335 00:21:27,232 --> 00:21:31,191 Speaker 3: of interest and one of them was Bradley Murdoch. Very 336 00:21:31,232 --> 00:21:33,711 Speaker 3: early on in the investigation, he became a person of 337 00:21:33,752 --> 00:21:37,631 Speaker 3: interest and then as other things transpired, he became a 338 00:21:37,671 --> 00:21:44,272 Speaker 3: suspect and we needed to get his DNA or close too. 339 00:21:44,712 --> 00:21:48,992 Speaker 3: So we understood that he had had a fooling out 340 00:21:49,032 --> 00:21:54,712 Speaker 3: with his brother and we needed to seek his consent 341 00:21:55,311 --> 00:21:59,271 Speaker 3: for a sample for the purpose of analysis. So the 342 00:21:59,351 --> 00:22:03,351 Speaker 3: youngest detective on our team was a very quietly spoken, 343 00:22:04,272 --> 00:22:08,431 Speaker 3: articulate and I thought that she was the best person 344 00:22:08,512 --> 00:22:11,911 Speaker 3: to speak to Gary Murdoch. So off she went and 345 00:22:11,952 --> 00:22:15,591 Speaker 3: spoke to him, and yeah, she explained our position that 346 00:22:15,631 --> 00:22:17,911 Speaker 3: we were in and the fact that his brother was 347 00:22:17,952 --> 00:22:21,232 Speaker 3: a suspect, and we were able to obtain a sample 348 00:22:21,591 --> 00:22:24,671 Speaker 3: for the purpose of analysis. And once that came in, 349 00:22:24,752 --> 00:22:25,871 Speaker 3: we knew we had our guy. 350 00:22:26,712 --> 00:22:32,792 Speaker 2: You say that Bradley Murdoch was a suspect. What did 351 00:22:32,911 --> 00:22:36,191 Speaker 2: police know about him up until that point because he 352 00:22:36,311 --> 00:22:40,792 Speaker 2: had been engaged in criminal activity? What was known about 353 00:22:40,831 --> 00:22:42,991 Speaker 2: him and what brought him onto your radar in the 354 00:22:43,032 --> 00:22:43,952 Speaker 2: first place. 355 00:22:44,472 --> 00:22:48,151 Speaker 3: When the investigation commenced. Once I took over, there's one question, 356 00:22:48,232 --> 00:22:51,512 Speaker 3: I asked, give me your top five to ten suspects. 357 00:22:51,512 --> 00:22:54,231 Speaker 3: If you got ten, Gray, give me who you have. 358 00:22:54,431 --> 00:22:57,552 Speaker 3: And at that time, Bradley Murdoch was second or third 359 00:22:57,591 --> 00:23:01,191 Speaker 3: on that list, and so I said, right, what we 360 00:23:01,232 --> 00:23:03,111 Speaker 3: are going to do is have a look at these 361 00:23:03,192 --> 00:23:06,952 Speaker 3: that require further attention. And once we looked at Murdoch 362 00:23:07,552 --> 00:23:12,111 Speaker 3: and we understood more about him, we realized that there 363 00:23:12,192 --> 00:23:17,831 Speaker 3: was so much circumstantial evidence connecting him to this particular crime. 364 00:23:18,712 --> 00:23:20,792 Speaker 3: One of those things was he was in all of 365 00:23:20,831 --> 00:23:24,272 Speaker 3: Springs at the same time. So to be in Central 366 00:23:24,272 --> 00:23:27,951 Speaker 3: Australia when you actually live in Western Australia or you 367 00:23:28,071 --> 00:23:33,552 Speaker 3: live in South Australia, that is an enormous coincidence. We 368 00:23:33,671 --> 00:23:36,311 Speaker 3: then started to find out a little bit more about 369 00:23:36,351 --> 00:23:40,791 Speaker 3: Bradley Murdoff, who would often go from South Australia to Broom, 370 00:23:40,911 --> 00:23:45,992 Speaker 3: taking five to ten pounds of drugs each trip, and 371 00:23:46,512 --> 00:23:50,311 Speaker 3: he would do that in the vehicle that fitted the 372 00:23:50,391 --> 00:23:55,431 Speaker 3: description that joe Anne Leeds had given. So we knew 373 00:23:55,472 --> 00:23:59,711 Speaker 3: that he still had this vehicle, but he had made 374 00:23:59,752 --> 00:24:04,952 Speaker 3: some significant changes to it immediately after this crime had occurred. 375 00:24:06,431 --> 00:24:09,752 Speaker 3: Thing he'd done is he'd completely changed his appearance. He'd 376 00:24:09,792 --> 00:24:13,031 Speaker 3: shaved his hair, he'd shaved his facial hair off, his 377 00:24:13,151 --> 00:24:18,311 Speaker 3: behaviors changed, He kept a much lower profile. And when 378 00:24:18,431 --> 00:24:21,911 Speaker 3: we released the truck stop video, we had a phone 379 00:24:21,952 --> 00:24:27,032 Speaker 3: call that the person in that video looked very similar 380 00:24:27,071 --> 00:24:30,631 Speaker 3: to Bradley Murdock. The final piece was the fact that 381 00:24:30,712 --> 00:24:35,871 Speaker 3: his drug associate, James Heppy, was also talking about Murdock 382 00:24:35,952 --> 00:24:40,591 Speaker 3: as the potential murderer in this case. So things were 383 00:24:40,631 --> 00:24:44,792 Speaker 3: starting to unravel for Bradley Murdock, but the circumstantial evidence 384 00:24:45,391 --> 00:24:50,311 Speaker 3: around him was just mounting up. And then when you 385 00:24:50,391 --> 00:24:53,111 Speaker 3: add the DNA, you're pretty much there. 386 00:24:53,952 --> 00:24:56,752 Speaker 2: How did you eventually arrest him? 387 00:24:57,032 --> 00:25:01,911 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, this is another interesting coincidence. So during our investigation, 388 00:25:02,552 --> 00:25:06,432 Speaker 3: I sought to get a criminal profile of the offender. 389 00:25:06,552 --> 00:25:11,232 Speaker 3: Now I had learnt a lot about criminal profiling, and 390 00:25:11,272 --> 00:25:13,952 Speaker 3: I was a big believer in her, and I knew 391 00:25:14,151 --> 00:25:17,392 Speaker 3: there was a superintendent at the time in South Australia 392 00:25:18,032 --> 00:25:22,951 Speaker 3: who had been FBI trained, and so she undertook a 393 00:25:23,032 --> 00:25:26,712 Speaker 3: profile of the offender in this matter and had made 394 00:25:26,831 --> 00:25:30,792 Speaker 3: some conclusions about who the offender is, and she was 395 00:25:30,831 --> 00:25:35,111 Speaker 3: pretty close in terms of her predictions. It just so 396 00:25:35,351 --> 00:25:38,272 Speaker 3: happened that during that time between the time she did 397 00:25:38,311 --> 00:25:42,272 Speaker 3: the profile and the time we started to actively look 398 00:25:42,351 --> 00:25:46,671 Speaker 3: for Bradley Murdoch, that she was the district superintendent in 399 00:25:46,792 --> 00:25:49,631 Speaker 3: charge of the area where he had committed another crime. 400 00:25:50,472 --> 00:25:51,591 Speaker 2: What was that crime? 401 00:25:52,272 --> 00:25:55,151 Speaker 3: So that was the rape and abduction of a woman 402 00:25:55,311 --> 00:25:59,391 Speaker 3: and her daughter from a town in South Australia where 403 00:25:59,472 --> 00:26:03,152 Speaker 3: he had abducted them. He had chained them to the 404 00:26:03,351 --> 00:26:07,311 Speaker 3: back of his land cruise a ute and he had 405 00:26:07,391 --> 00:26:09,992 Speaker 3: driven around with him for a couple of days and 406 00:26:10,232 --> 00:26:15,472 Speaker 3: tormented and tortured them and finally letting them go. Then 407 00:26:15,512 --> 00:26:19,391 Speaker 3: there was a man hunt for him and Superintendent Pillmyer, 408 00:26:19,512 --> 00:26:22,272 Speaker 3: who had done the profile, was in charge of that. 409 00:26:22,512 --> 00:26:25,831 Speaker 3: And I'll never forget her ringing me and saying I 410 00:26:25,871 --> 00:26:26,871 Speaker 3: think I've got your guy. 411 00:26:27,992 --> 00:26:33,432 Speaker 2: You met Bradley Murdoch in his cell and we hear 412 00:26:33,512 --> 00:26:38,391 Speaker 2: often that he is tall and quite dominating. What was 413 00:26:38,431 --> 00:26:41,472 Speaker 2: he like? What was his presence? How would you describe him? 414 00:26:42,311 --> 00:26:46,752 Speaker 3: He's a big man. I can see why women would 415 00:26:46,831 --> 00:26:52,512 Speaker 3: think him intimidating. He was quite erratic. He was angry. 416 00:26:53,472 --> 00:26:57,951 Speaker 3: And he stood face to face with me in a 417 00:26:58,071 --> 00:27:02,151 Speaker 3: room at Yetler Prison in South Australia. And I was 418 00:27:02,192 --> 00:27:06,912 Speaker 3: with my male counterpart, a detective who was older guy, 419 00:27:06,911 --> 00:27:10,032 Speaker 3: a bit of a bushy himself. But he wasn't interested 420 00:27:10,071 --> 00:27:12,351 Speaker 3: in even looking at him. He just looked at me 421 00:27:12,512 --> 00:27:15,591 Speaker 3: and he stood up close to me, close enough that 422 00:27:15,631 --> 00:27:18,631 Speaker 3: I could feel his spit on my face as he 423 00:27:18,752 --> 00:27:20,951 Speaker 3: was raising his voice at me and telling me that 424 00:27:20,992 --> 00:27:24,992 Speaker 3: I had the wrong guy. And he tried everything to 425 00:27:25,032 --> 00:27:28,671 Speaker 3: intimidate me, and we stood face to face for quite 426 00:27:28,671 --> 00:27:31,591 Speaker 3: some time. I didn't take a step back. It was 427 00:27:31,712 --> 00:27:33,871 Speaker 3: kind of it became a game after a while. But 428 00:27:34,671 --> 00:27:37,831 Speaker 3: finally he stood back from me and I got him 429 00:27:37,831 --> 00:27:39,992 Speaker 3: to sit down and we talked for some time. 430 00:27:41,032 --> 00:27:43,671 Speaker 2: What did he say during that time? Was he still 431 00:27:44,111 --> 00:27:45,911 Speaker 2: trying to convince you of his innocence? 432 00:27:46,591 --> 00:27:50,911 Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely. One part of this case that became quite 433 00:27:50,911 --> 00:27:55,191 Speaker 3: controversial was the late release of some footage from the 434 00:27:55,272 --> 00:27:59,671 Speaker 3: truck stop in Ella Springs. Now, the police at the time. 435 00:28:00,071 --> 00:28:02,752 Speaker 3: Took a number of weeks to release that footage because 436 00:28:02,792 --> 00:28:06,512 Speaker 3: they were trying to enhance it to increase the possibility 437 00:28:06,552 --> 00:28:10,911 Speaker 3: that someone may recognize the car or the person in 438 00:28:10,952 --> 00:28:13,272 Speaker 3: the footage, when an actual fact, they probably should have 439 00:28:13,311 --> 00:28:17,271 Speaker 3: just got it out there. So his focus was on 440 00:28:17,311 --> 00:28:21,471 Speaker 3: that footage and saying that it's not me and your 441 00:28:21,512 --> 00:28:27,111 Speaker 3: footage because I use the other pumps. And he pointed 442 00:28:27,232 --> 00:28:30,071 Speaker 3: to the front of his teeth and said, I've got 443 00:28:30,111 --> 00:28:34,151 Speaker 3: no fucking teeth, so how could it be me. His 444 00:28:34,591 --> 00:28:38,951 Speaker 3: focus on that footage was quite considerable, But the whole 445 00:28:39,032 --> 00:28:43,032 Speaker 3: time he was certainly arguing his case that he was 446 00:28:43,072 --> 00:28:44,911 Speaker 3: innocent of what he'd been accused of. 447 00:28:45,952 --> 00:28:50,272 Speaker 2: You mentioned the profile that was developed. What kind of 448 00:28:50,392 --> 00:28:53,911 Speaker 2: man was Bradley Murdoch and what were his motivations. 449 00:28:54,632 --> 00:28:57,392 Speaker 3: There's a number of things with Bradley Murdoch. He had 450 00:28:57,431 --> 00:29:02,392 Speaker 3: a history of using violence and generally when he didn't 451 00:29:02,592 --> 00:29:05,352 Speaker 3: get his own way, he liked to be in control. 452 00:29:06,472 --> 00:29:10,752 Speaker 3: Kilmi said this crime was committed with sex in mind. 453 00:29:10,872 --> 00:29:15,191 Speaker 3: She believed the target was Joanne, not Peter. Peter was 454 00:29:15,232 --> 00:29:19,392 Speaker 3: in the way, so he needed to be removed. There 455 00:29:19,431 --> 00:29:23,712 Speaker 3: is some belief that maybe he had seen Joanne when 456 00:29:23,832 --> 00:29:26,072 Speaker 3: they were both in Alice Springs. It could have been 457 00:29:26,112 --> 00:29:28,832 Speaker 3: that he was at the Recco on the Highway the 458 00:29:28,832 --> 00:29:31,912 Speaker 3: same time that she was at Red Rooster waiting outside 459 00:29:31,952 --> 00:29:35,671 Speaker 3: for Peter. Now we know that she is the sort 460 00:29:35,712 --> 00:29:40,992 Speaker 3: of woman that Bradley likes, and he may have decided 461 00:29:41,032 --> 00:29:44,672 Speaker 3: at that point to follow her and pursue her. Now, 462 00:29:44,752 --> 00:29:48,632 Speaker 3: that day, the fourteenth of July is significant for Bradley 463 00:29:48,712 --> 00:29:52,352 Speaker 3: Murdock because it also signifies the day that he was married. 464 00:29:52,872 --> 00:29:57,152 Speaker 3: Now that marriage broke down and he was never had 465 00:29:57,232 --> 00:30:00,751 Speaker 3: any contact with his ex wife or his son, and 466 00:30:00,792 --> 00:30:05,272 Speaker 3: he carried some anger and animosity about that, So we 467 00:30:05,911 --> 00:30:09,312 Speaker 3: thought that perhaps that date had some significance. 468 00:30:10,192 --> 00:30:14,712 Speaker 2: You traveled to the UK to speak to Joanne, who 469 00:30:14,792 --> 00:30:18,712 Speaker 2: was at this point pretty wary and distrusting of police 470 00:30:18,712 --> 00:30:22,431 Speaker 2: after her experience. What did she tell you and did 471 00:30:22,512 --> 00:30:25,992 Speaker 2: you feel you were able to regain her trust? 472 00:30:26,552 --> 00:30:29,191 Speaker 3: The first morning was very difficult. She had never met me, 473 00:30:30,152 --> 00:30:32,671 Speaker 3: She didn't have a lot of trust of the Northern 474 00:30:32,752 --> 00:30:35,272 Speaker 3: Territory Police. She didn't have a lot of faith in 475 00:30:35,352 --> 00:30:38,832 Speaker 3: the Northern Territory Police, and it probably took a good 476 00:30:38,872 --> 00:30:42,231 Speaker 3: hour and a half two hours to really gain that 477 00:30:42,592 --> 00:30:46,951 Speaker 3: trust and to get her to open up. But once 478 00:30:47,032 --> 00:30:51,431 Speaker 3: we did, it was a really productive conversation. She was 479 00:30:51,552 --> 00:30:57,712 Speaker 3: able to explain certain parts of her statement which many 480 00:30:58,112 --> 00:31:02,272 Speaker 3: were suspicious of, and some of the ambiguities were really 481 00:31:02,392 --> 00:31:05,392 Speaker 3: just around the amount of stress that she was under 482 00:31:05,472 --> 00:31:10,231 Speaker 3: at the time. Also, what became clear to me is 483 00:31:10,272 --> 00:31:15,032 Speaker 3: that the initial police had tainted some of her evidence 484 00:31:15,152 --> 00:31:20,231 Speaker 3: by introducing some influencers in the first twenty four hours. 485 00:31:20,232 --> 00:31:23,191 Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is she said that 486 00:31:23,232 --> 00:31:26,712 Speaker 3: Bradley Murdock had a dog, and the police officer said, oh, 487 00:31:26,872 --> 00:31:28,832 Speaker 3: was it a dog that looked like that one? And 488 00:31:28,911 --> 00:31:34,912 Speaker 3: pointed out a blue healer. So by introducing such influencers, 489 00:31:35,671 --> 00:31:40,112 Speaker 3: it really taints their evidence and it confuses a witness 490 00:31:40,192 --> 00:31:43,272 Speaker 3: or a victim, particularly when they've been under such stress. 491 00:31:44,112 --> 00:31:48,312 Speaker 3: They can often get confused by things that happened immediately 492 00:31:48,392 --> 00:31:52,392 Speaker 3: after an event that's caused that trauma. So there were 493 00:31:52,392 --> 00:31:57,191 Speaker 3: some things that the police had really I guess tainted 494 00:31:57,232 --> 00:31:58,632 Speaker 3: in the first few hours. 495 00:31:59,752 --> 00:32:04,312 Speaker 2: Another key piece of evidence ended up being a hairtie. 496 00:32:04,712 --> 00:32:07,231 Speaker 2: Can you talk us through this significance of that? 497 00:32:08,872 --> 00:32:14,552 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was critical. So when we seized Bradley Murdock's 498 00:32:14,712 --> 00:32:19,312 Speaker 3: vehicle from South Australia and all his belongings. He was 499 00:32:19,392 --> 00:32:21,632 Speaker 3: actually going to hide. He was going to hide in 500 00:32:21,911 --> 00:32:27,112 Speaker 3: somewhere very remote and we probably would have some difficulty 501 00:32:27,352 --> 00:32:31,072 Speaker 3: in finding him because he knows those back roads like 502 00:32:31,152 --> 00:32:33,832 Speaker 3: the back of his hand. He's driven up them all 503 00:32:33,911 --> 00:32:37,512 Speaker 3: his life. He's been a drug runner. So we got 504 00:32:37,632 --> 00:32:40,832 Speaker 3: him at a time that he had everything with him. 505 00:32:41,152 --> 00:32:44,152 Speaker 3: So once we seized all his belongings and brought them 506 00:32:44,152 --> 00:32:48,032 Speaker 3: to Darwin, we were about to go through a process 507 00:32:48,272 --> 00:32:51,672 Speaker 3: of itemizing everything he had and looking at what could 508 00:32:51,752 --> 00:32:56,472 Speaker 3: possibly be evident for the Northern Territory matter. And one 509 00:32:56,512 --> 00:33:00,152 Speaker 3: of the detectives who had this an amazing attention to detail. 510 00:33:00,512 --> 00:33:03,592 Speaker 3: She said, no, I think the best way for us 511 00:33:03,592 --> 00:33:06,231 Speaker 3: to do this is one person spent as long as 512 00:33:06,592 --> 00:33:09,952 Speaker 3: it takes, and goes through it piece by piece by piece. 513 00:33:11,192 --> 00:33:15,792 Speaker 3: And so she started dismantling the back of his vehicle 514 00:33:15,992 --> 00:33:20,832 Speaker 3: and what she found around his gun holster was a 515 00:33:20,911 --> 00:33:26,951 Speaker 3: Lady Jane hairtie. And Joanne had reported that she'd lost 516 00:33:26,952 --> 00:33:31,552 Speaker 3: it in the struggle, and we thought, is it a trophy? 517 00:33:31,992 --> 00:33:34,471 Speaker 3: Why would he keep it knowing that that would connect 518 00:33:34,552 --> 00:33:36,552 Speaker 3: him to the crime, But there it was. It was 519 00:33:36,592 --> 00:33:41,632 Speaker 3: around his holster, and when he was shown that in 520 00:33:41,752 --> 00:33:45,352 Speaker 3: the trial, he almost recalled off the back of his 521 00:33:45,472 --> 00:33:49,632 Speaker 3: chair because he realized that that was the last piece 522 00:33:49,712 --> 00:33:52,471 Speaker 3: of the puzzle. So it was such a significant find 523 00:33:52,872 --> 00:33:55,552 Speaker 3: in terms of the overall circumstantial case. 524 00:33:56,472 --> 00:33:57,712 Speaker 2: Did he ever confess? 525 00:33:58,592 --> 00:33:59,952 Speaker 3: Never? Never? 526 00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:02,872 Speaker 2: And what was he convicted of in the courtroom? 527 00:34:03,512 --> 00:34:08,232 Speaker 3: He was convicted of the murder of Pflcneo and the 528 00:34:08,312 --> 00:34:11,272 Speaker 3: assault and attempted abduction of Joe Anne Lee's. 529 00:34:12,272 --> 00:34:17,071 Speaker 2: Finally, I wanted to ask if Peter Falconio's body or 530 00:34:17,232 --> 00:34:19,072 Speaker 2: remains have ever been found. 531 00:34:20,511 --> 00:34:24,952 Speaker 3: No, we have undertaken a number of searches. We've used 532 00:34:24,991 --> 00:34:29,752 Speaker 3: experts from the UK. Whenever there is any information, the 533 00:34:29,792 --> 00:34:34,111 Speaker 3: police act on that. That would be something just for 534 00:34:34,192 --> 00:34:37,832 Speaker 3: the family. I know would assist them. I don't think 535 00:34:37,872 --> 00:34:41,272 Speaker 3: Bradley will ever disclose the whereabouts. I think he will 536 00:34:41,272 --> 00:34:43,911 Speaker 3: take that to his great I guess you know. We 537 00:34:43,991 --> 00:34:47,432 Speaker 3: feel quite proud in having achieved a conviction without a body, 538 00:34:48,551 --> 00:34:52,312 Speaker 3: but to find Peter's remains would certainly add some real 539 00:34:52,352 --> 00:34:53,431 Speaker 3: closure for the family. 540 00:34:55,672 --> 00:34:59,352 Speaker 2: Colleen Gwinn is a detective superintendent who led the search 541 00:34:59,392 --> 00:35:02,752 Speaker 2: for Peter Falconio. She was in the police force for 542 00:35:02,792 --> 00:35:06,712 Speaker 2: thirty years before reaching the rank of commander. It was 543 00:35:06,792 --> 00:35:10,991 Speaker 2: during this time that she brought Peter Falconio's killer to justice. 544 00:35:13,031 --> 00:35:16,472 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is a Mother of Maya podcast hosted 545 00:35:16,471 --> 00:35:21,551 Speaker 2: by me Jesse Stevens. Sound design is by Ian Camaliari, 546 00:35:21,712 --> 00:35:25,312 Speaker 2: and our producer is Gia Moylan. If you'd like to 547 00:35:25,352 --> 00:35:27,751 Speaker 2: find out more about the show, don't forget to join 548 00:35:27,872 --> 00:35:32,071 Speaker 2: our online community. Just search for True Crime Conversations on 549 00:35:32,112 --> 00:35:34,111 Speaker 2: Facebook and make a request to join