WEBVTT - UPDATE: The Long Island Serial Killer Finally Learns His Fate 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.080 Hi there, I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:07.280 Crime Conversations. Just a few weeks ago, an American serial 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.400 killer was sentenced to life without parole. It brought to 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:15.520 an end a case that spans decades, a case recovered 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.720 in detail on this podcast in twenty twenty four, when 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.360 there were only charges involved to recap in twenty eleven, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.840 A total of eleven human remains were found on or 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.520 around Gilgo Beach on Long Island, New York. In twenty 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.360 twenty three and twenty twenty four, one man was charged 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:37.440 with murdering seven of them. His name is Rex Hueman, 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.680 and he was a local architect who hid in plain 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:44.640 sight for years before his eventual arrest in July twenty 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.680 twenty three. He'd been using up to one hundred bonafones 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:53.240 to lure women, mainly sex workers, before torturing them, killing 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:58.360 them and burying some were dismembered. The women were aged 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.800 between twenty and thirty four, and they were killed between 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:06.920 nineteen ninety three and twenty ten. Their names were Sandra Costia, 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:14.520 Valerie Mack, Jessica Taylor, Maureen Brainard Barnes, Melissa Barthelomy, Megan Waterman, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.280 and Amber Costello. We now know of an eighth victim, 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.679 Karen Vegata, killed in nineteen ninety six, whom Human admitted 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.679 to murdering earlier this year. To understand more about the 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.840 evidence police found that led them to Human, how they 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.279 caught him, and more about the victims by suggest dipping 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.600 back into our original episode. It's linked in our show notes. 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.520 But in the meantime, we asked our original guest, Alexis Slipletter, 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:47.000 who has a podcast called Unraveled, unpacking this case in detail, 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:49.520 to come back on our show and fill us in 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:50.960 on the latest from court. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:51.600 Here. 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:53.480 She is Alexis. 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:57.160 Last time we spoke, it was October twenty twenty four. 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.400 At that point, Rex Human had been charged with six motors, 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.680 and then a few months after our interview there was 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:09.280 a seventh murder charge. Were you expecting that momentum to 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.800 continue because there were eleven bodies found in and around 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:13.520 Gilgo Beage. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.119 I was expecting that momentum to continue. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.160 I had always been of the mind that all of 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:23.800 the remains found along Ocean Parkway were connected to Rex Hwermen. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.600 But in the months that followed I discovered that I 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:29.440 was wrong about that. 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.480 Can you tell us a bit about that, because two 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.760 of the three remaining motors that we haven't attributed were 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:37.040 attributed to someone else. 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:38.800 Correct. 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.320 So there were two victims who had long been unidentified, 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:47.040 and they were known as Peaches and Baby Dough, and 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:55.000 they were linked genetically in I believe around like the 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:58.440 early side of like the twenty tens, they were able 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.520 to link them genetically in confirmed that they were a 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.320 mother and daughter. Now, the remains were found really far 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.639 apart from each other. The mother's torso was found in 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.840 an area close to New York City, where her appendages 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.720 were found along Ocean Parkway, and the toddler was found 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.400 along Ocean Parkway about two hundred and fifty feet from 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.960 the remains belonging to a woman named Valerie. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.760 Mack who rex Yuerman was charged with. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:30.600 Now, a little while after rex Huerman was charged with 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:35.960 that seven victim, these two victims were identified as Tanya 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.200 Jackson is the mother and Tatiana Dykes is the baby. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:44.240 And not long after that, the neighboring county to where 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.840 the Long Island serial killer case basically is unfolding, which 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.640 is called Suffolk County. The neighboring county in a different 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:56.040 jurisdiction charged a different man with the murder of Tanya Jackson, 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.520 who was known as Peaches. Nobody has been charged for 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:04.960 the baby, and presumably, I mean we think obviously they 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.560 believe if this man killed the mother, they killed the 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.600 child as well. So it was a big shock to 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.920 everybody familiar with the case. I don't think anyone was 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:17.120 expecting that. I'm still in shock over it because there 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.119 are so many coincidences tied to where these remains are found. 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.479 I find it really hard to believe that two different 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.880 people would have chosen such precise locations for this. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.240 And then the third victim, known as Asian Doe. No 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.279 one has been charged over that death. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.359 No one has been charged with the death of Asian Doe. 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.200 There is a renewed push once again to try to 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.839 figure out who they are. Although when I was attending 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.320 in court the plea hearing for Rex Hereman, so when 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.360 he pled guilty, there was a giant press conference afterwards, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:57.400 and one of my colleagues asked the district attorney whether 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.919 or not the DA believed that Rex Huremen could be 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.960 responsible for the murder of Asian Doe. And the district 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:09.240 attorney has sort of like an interesting personality. But he 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.279 said this to my colleague, he said, it doesn't matter 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.880 what I believe, it matters what I can prove. And 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:20.359 it kind of made us feel like they believe he 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.600 did that they haven't proven it yet, and especially because 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.240 in these batches of evidence that the district attorney was 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.560 sharing with the public along the way, you know, over 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.880 the three years since he'd been arrested, to go along 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:39.080 with all the new indictments, there are many many Google 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.479 searches that have been provided to the public that rex 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.200 hu Weermen made and a lot of them were about 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:45.560 Asian victims. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.600 And a lot of them are about Asian. 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:54.080 Trans victims, which many people believe that Asian doe was 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.200 living their life as a woman because they were biologically 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:58.720 male but found in women's clothing. 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.600 Human was going to trial, that was what we've been 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.839 waiting for. He'd pled not guilty. It was shaping up 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.840 to be enormous. The sheer scope of you know, the 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.520 number of victims, the years he was active, the evidence. 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.120 Can you kind of help paint that picture because at 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.599 one point his defense team wanted five different trials, like 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.000 this was going to be huge. 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.520 It was going to be huge because with every new arrest, 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.040 I mean with every new indictment they made. You know, 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:31.960 he was indicted for the murder of a woman named 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:32.800 Santra Costia. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:35.120 She was murdered in nineteen ninety three. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:39.400 Prior to that, the earliest victim we all thought that 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.320 he was responsible for was nineteen ninety six, So the 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:46.839 timeline of when he was murdering kept broadening, and so 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:51.000 did them. A lot of these victims were dismembered, some 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:55.680 of them were not. With Sandra Costia, the woman that 0:06:55.760 --> 0:07:01.240 he was indicted for the seventh victim, she had sharp 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.320 force injuries and was left in the woods, not where 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.000 any of the other victims were found. For a long time, 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.160 everyone thought a different serial killer was responsible. So for 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.560 that reason, we're talking so many geographic areas, so many 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:17.400 different mos and his attorney did attempt to sever the 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.800 trials into five separate trials. He attempted several times to 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.760 get evidence thrown out because the evidence against him is 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.120 vast as well. But there was new DNA technology that 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.440 was used in a lot of this DNA analysis, so 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:32.600 it was going to be huge. That's why I mean 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.080 it took three years, all of the pre trial hearings. 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:37.280 It was going to be a massive trial and it 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.800 was going to be complicated. But the evidence against him 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.280 is overwhelming, So I think he saw the writing on 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:42.680 the wall. 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.400 Did you think human was going to change his play, 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:49.400 that that is something that hey would do. 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.600 My instinct was no, But I heard early on from 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:58.080 a source that he was considering that. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.360 Because I was of the mind that, well, what does 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:03.560 he have to lose? You know, we don't have the death. 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:08.320 Penalty in New York State, so why not why not 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.840 sit there through the attention and the media circus and 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:13.720 soak all of that in. 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.320 I didn't see a downside for him. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.360 But the more I've under gootten to know sort of 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.680 his life through interviews with people who knew him, and 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.840 I've you know, developed a friendship with Rex Chruerman's wife's attorney. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:30.800 His name is Bob Macedonia, and I talked to him 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:35.439 quite frequently. I realized that people like Hureman are much 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.480 more on a spectrum than I believed initially, in that 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.360 he did appear to do this to spare his own 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:47.000 family fur their embarrassment because a lot more evidence was 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.360 going to be paraded out publicly had he gone a trial, 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.560 and I think a lot of that was going to 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.280 make things look way worse. So weirdly, I mean, I 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.520 didn't think men like him were capable of caring about 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.000 their families, but it seems to some degree he is, 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.040 or at least he's capable of making these decisions to 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:06.760 control a narrative around him. 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:09.800 Because in the last year or so, we have learned 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.440 a lot more about human's wife and daughter, in particular 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.440 because they spoke to a documentary ride what did you 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:17.679 learn about them? 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.559 Saying that, Wow, So I was. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.920 In that documentary and I was fascinated. You know, we 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.560 have never seen the aftermath of an arrest of a 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.880 serial killer who was living a double life that up 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.600 close and personally before and that deal for them came 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.880 together so quickly, so we really saw them in shock 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:45.199 at first, in total denial. So what I've learned about 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.520 that family is that his wife had no idea. Their 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.280 marriage was very traditional as far as like their gender roles. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.640 She didn't ask questions. He was the breadwinner. He went 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.480 into the city. He commuted about an hour and a 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.240 half each day. He had kind of a separate life 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.760 in Manhattan and because he sort of had control of 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:10.199 their household in relationships. He would buy her ticket to 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.080 go somewhere and say you're going on this trip, bring 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.160 the kids, And he was doing these things when she 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:21.120 wasn't home. It's hard to believe that someone could hide 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.480 that much from their spouse and children, but it seems 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.800 he has. And the timeline fits together where he murdered 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.520 a woman days before he married her, and he was 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.600 murdering far long before he married her. So in my opinion, 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.480 I think he chose her because he knew he could 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.840 get away with this with the type of personality she had. 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.679 Well, he certainly has been hiding in planes for decades, 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.200 so that wouldn't be a surprise. Now, can you talk 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.000 us through how news of this plea deal played out? 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.440 How close to trial was he and how did you 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:56.920 find out it was happening. You said you had a 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:57.640 bit of an inkling. 0:10:57.920 --> 0:10:59.280 Oh, yeah, I knew beforehand. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.760 I had heard from a source long before, probably you know, 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:09.360 six months before it actually happened. And I asked, you know, 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.080 the DA at one of the court appearances about it, 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:16.080 you know, during one of the press briefings afterwards, and 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.360 then people started asking about it saying, oh, is that 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:21.240 really on the table? Is that really going to happen? 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:27.199 And then the rumors kept circulating. So I knew, and 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.800 the trial I think was going to take place. I 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.400 mean they were talking about twenty twenty six, but I 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.280 mean it's hard to know. I mean, the judge was 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:41.560 getting impatient with all of the pre trial hearings. But 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.959 you know, probably a handful of months out the trial 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:45.760 was set to start. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.480 Did we know that he was going to admit to 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.480 an eighth victim as part of that play? 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.800 Do we suspected it? 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.920 We didn't know for sure until we were there, until 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:03.480 it happened, But every one suspected that he murdered Karen Vergatta. 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.760 That's the woman he admitted to killing, and you know 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.840 that was part of the deal. I always believe that 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.240 he was responsible for her murder. So a lot of 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.880 us who follow the case suspected that, but we weren't 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:14.680 sure till that day. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.440 Can you tell us what the actual play deal that 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:18.640 he agreed to was. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:23.440 Yeah, So he admitted to the victims. 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.400 He was charged with killing seven of them, and then 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.040 he admitted to Karen Vergatta, who he was just accepting 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:34.480 responsibility for and in return he is receiving three consecutive 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:39.640 life sentences. He cannot be prosecuted any further for any 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.719 of these eight victims. However, he can be prosecuted if 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.199 any other murder victims are linked to him in the future, 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.080 like when his DNA is put in codis. If there 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.599 are any other hits, he can be prosecuted for any 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.360 other crimes, which again makes me think that the district 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.880 attorney believes there are more victims. And what's odd in 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.160 what really ruffleds some feathers was that part of this 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.119 deal was that he is to cooperate with the FBI's 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.080 Behavioral Science Unit, which means he's going to be interviewed 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:11.920 by the FBI. And part of the deal is that 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.880 he's supposed to be completely candid and honest. But a 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:19.559 serial killer doesn't care about deals or what their commitments. 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.160 We can never know whether he'll be telling the truth. 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:24.720 And I think that bothered a lot of people too, 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.840 because he's fascinated by the FBI. They found a copy 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.240 of mind Hunter in his house. In his planning document, 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.360 he was taking notes from mind Hunter, and if you're 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.840 not familiar, mind Hunter was written by a former FBI 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:42.120 agent named John Douglas, who basically was a founding member 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.640 of the FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit and coined the term 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.400 serial killer. So a lot of people think that Rex 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.000 Yeerman's very excited by this and it's giving him some 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:53.960 narcissistic validation. 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.160 It's hard because I can say why people would be 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.120 upset by that. But then on the other side, we 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.560 do need to look from people like these so that 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.679 we can catch them in the future and stop them 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:04.280 in the future. 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.560 Yeah, there is value in it, I think, especially because 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:14.120 serial killers like Rex Hewerman are very rare. There are 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.280 other kind of serial killers, you know, there used to 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.920 be more, you know, but because of technology, serial killers 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:27.120 operating through digital means, like Rex Huerman was bringing women 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:28.520 into his house to murder them. 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:30.720 I mean, that's not really happening anymore. 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.400 The most recent serial killer prior to his arrest was 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.560 I think the Golden State Killer, and he stopped murdering 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.360 in nineteen eighty six, but then, you know, he murdered 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.720 ten people and then it was cold, right, and they 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.600 didn't know who he was. But for people to be 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.800 murdering into two thousand and nine twenty ten, the way 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:53.360 he was, it's highly highly unusual now, so I think, yeah, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.600 I think the FBI wants to understand like the compulsive 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.680 nature of his crimes because he didn't really have the 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.960 self preservation, in the self control to stop when he 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:04.760 should have. 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:06.400 And the fact that he got away with it for 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.880 that long. Given the world we live in and how 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.160 connected we are and you know, the Internet, it is 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:13.600 quite unbelievable. 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.240 Really, it's really disturbing. It's really disturbing. 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.560 And you know, because he stopped in twenty ten, it 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.360 really would have been impossible, you know now with the 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.560 way our phones are, cameras are everywhere tracking. I think 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.160 he really got lucky in that time period because he 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.400 was using burner phones and he was using you know, 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.080 sock puppet emails, you know, fake email accounts. But that's 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.040 still now. I feel like if someone was doing that 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:45.240 right now, they'd be caught. So it's unusual, which is good. 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.840 We should say, yes, right, that's very good. 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.800 Up next, Alexis takes us inside Human's plea hearing, describing 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.800 the atmosphere in the courtroom and what he said during 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:02.000 the proceedings. You are right at the court for the 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.360 plea hearing at four forty five am to be there 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.400 well at all unfolded, which means you did get to 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:11.720 see everything. What was that experience like? What was that 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:16.360 room like when you walked into it? So for the 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.880 sentencing or for the plea hearing, plea hearing. So the 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.040 plea hearing, it was. 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.560 A really it was strange, Like it was more intense 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:25.920 than the sentencing. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:27.480 It was a longer day. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:32.120 It was really stressful, and people were there for I 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.040 mean we were there for like hours and hours and hours. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.760 It was it was intense, you know, it was strange. 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.000 It's it was strange that he was admitting it. It's 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.320 just it's all just very shocking. I still can't believe 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.160 that he did it in the cottom and he admitted it. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.920 Did he verbally admit it in that hearing. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.280 So what he did was he provided an allocution, and 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:01.520 sometimes allocutions are the the deal that is made is 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.439 that they are going to go into detail about what 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.760 they did there on the spot. It's my understanding that 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.080 prior to his plea, he did what was called a proffer, 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.680 which you basically admit everything. It can't be used against 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.280 you in court, it's just for it to strike a 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.240 plea deal. But in court he did an allocution with 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.840 yes or no answers or one word answers. So the 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.400 DA would ask, you know, did you do this, did 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.520 you cause the death of Megan Waterman or Melissa Bartholomy 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.879 on this date? Yes, he would say, and then they 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.240 would say by what means and he would say strangulation, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:43.040 And they did that eight times in a row. But 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.000 he wasn't required to go into any further detail. He 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.520 really just admitted that he did it and said how 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:50.040 he did it. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.280 And the families were old they to hear of that. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:53.280 How did they react? 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.879 I'm not sure all the families were there, you know. 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.480 It's very emotional, you know. I still I don't know 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.119 how the families do it, you know, sitting close to 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.800 a man who took the life of your daughter or sister, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:12.919 it's like the thoughts unbearable. The families are strong and 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.320 do everything with grace. So there are things that are said, 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:21.359 you know, especially during the sentencing. It was a lot 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.400 of things were said by the family in the room. 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:26.760 But yeah, no, it was. It's devastating to witness, you know, 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:28.400 and you don't wish it on anyone. 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:30.879 The play hearing was obviously the first step. Then we 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:31.680 had the sentencing. 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.240 Did you, as someone that has worked on this case 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.560 for so long, did you think that that play hearing 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.560 gave you or anyone their closure? 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.560 No, I don't think. I don't think closure is possible. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:45.840 You know. 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:52.320 It's like, was something so senseless in something so I mean, 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:53.200 he's so pathetic. 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:58.440 It's like he's this giant man targeting small women to 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.520 feel powerful and in control. And it's what he did 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:04.960 wasn't hard. What he did was cowardly, you know. So 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:10.320 I think it's just I can't imagine closure is ever 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.040 going to be had. It's like we don't know the 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:13.680 rest of it. 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:14.600 We'll never know. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.880 But I think for the families, it's like for them 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.119 it was a demarcation line, like I'm done with you. 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.959 I'm going to be focusing on my loved one's memory 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.720 and now I don't have to think about you anymore 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:26.400 because you're going to be in a cage. 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.359 After cold there were a huge number of press conferences. 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.200 He's defense his wife, who we hadn't really heard from 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.760 the DA. What stood out to you the most from 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:37.879 that flurry of press conferences? 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.280 So his wife Asa Allerup did address the media. You know, 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.359 she hasn't done much of that. And what I thought 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.120 was really interesting is like the second she was done, 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.960 she had a prepared statement that she read from and 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:57.600 immediately reporters were questioning, again, how could you not know? 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.040 How did you not know it was happening right in 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:00.520 front of you? 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.480 And there is still so much suspicion looming over her. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.440 And what I want to keep conveying is that, you know, 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.760 it's unbelievable for people that she couldn't have known, but 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.440 clearly she didn't because if the district attorney had evidence 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.119 that she had knowledge or was involved, he would have 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.560 delighted in charging her. So they have gone over every 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.840 shred of evidence, her cell phones, her computers. There's just 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.679 no indication that she knew. And I think what, I 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.480 don't think she should be blamed for not knowing. What 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.240 I do think that should do with scare people that 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.080 you could be living with someone lying to you to 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.560 that degree. I mean she was, and she's not the 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.800 first woman to be duped by a serial killer like this. 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.840 Well, she really is a form of a victim in 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:51.879 all of these too. She's had her life rip to 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:52.720 shreds as well. 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.680 She has, and you know, she starts as a victim, right, 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.840 and then for every decision she since the arrest, it's 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:04.119 hard to blame her for all of it. You know, 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:09.080 the shock, trauma, desperation processing this. I don't know that 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:13.240 my decisions would be sound. I don't know that I 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:18.119 would be able to trust my instincts about anything. People 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.919 think her participating in the documentary that the optics were 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.800 poor there. Maybe they were, but maybe she was out 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:28.000 of options. It's just really hard to judge her after 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.359 the shock and trauma of these revelations that she was 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:32.919 exposed to. 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.640 Let's talk a bit about the sentencing that only happened 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.560 a week ago from when we're talking. Yeah, I want 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:44.240 to start with human because we did he briefly from him. 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.160 You mentioned the word cowardly before. I feel like that 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.600 kind of needs to be repeated again here with what 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:50.720 he said, right. 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.280 Yeah, So everyone was wondering whether or not he would speak, 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:58.360 because the defendant is often given that opportunity, and when 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.399 he said yes, was surprised and he began to speak 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:03.720 and the judge yelled at him. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.160 The judge was very intense and told him to stand up. 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:09.680 So then there was like awkward five seconds where he's 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:14.359