1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Kick Your Expert led podcast, helping you 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: explore and learn everything about getting pregnancy, birth, and becoming 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: a parent. 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: On the podcast and our online pregnancy program grow My Baby, 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: we share my experience of helping more than four thousand 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 2: babies to be born. 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: And our experience of running a women's health clinic and 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: parenting for boys. 9 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: We're here to help everyone to feel empowered in pregnancy 10 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: and birth with real life, practical information. 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: Welcome everyone, I'm Bridgid Maloney and today we're covering a 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: topic that we've had lots of people over the years 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: ask us to do. It's a topic about fear of 14 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: childbirth and it's got a name, it's called tocophobia, and 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: it's a very specific issue, condition and diagnosis. And we've 16 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: found someone who has a lot of expertise in this 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: area and we've invited her onto the show. So we've 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: got Rebecca Wheeler. She is a clinical psychologist with over 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: twenty five years of experience. She has a strong focus 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: on the emotional journey of parenting, from contemplating conception, through 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: pregnancy and birth to the ongoing realities of raising children. 22 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: She is a consultant at Westmead Private hospital where she 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: works alongside maternity, obstetric and pediatric teams, and she's been 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: running her own private practice in psychology for over two decades. 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: As we talk, you might hear the odd ambulance in 26 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: the background as Rebecca is recording from Westmead Hospital. I 27 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: hope you get a lot out of this conversation, and 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: even those that fear childbirth but perhaps don't have the 29 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: intense fear that surrounds tocophobia. I think this is an 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: episode that everybody will get something from. All right, let's 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: get on with the show. 32 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 3: Welcome Rebecca. 33 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: It's so great to have you here. 34 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 3: That's Bridget, It's great to be here. Yeah. 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: A topic that we have been asked about again and again, 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: and fear in childbirth, I don't know. Is it something 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: that we don't really want to talk about because it's 38 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: just something that we should be okay with or how 39 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: often are your clients coming in with that as a problem. 40 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 3: I love it. I agree that it's something that we 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 3: don't always want to talk about because we think it's 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: well to a certain degree. It is all, of course, 43 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 3: having anxiety in worrying childburst and pregnancy is really all, 44 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 3: but this extra layer is very different, and I do 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 3: talk about it all the time with my clients, but this. 46 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 4: Extra layer of fear is a less common you know, Well, 47 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 4: it's more common than you think, I guess, but it's 48 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 4: still not that the extent of this sort of fear, 49 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 4: this toco sobers we'll talk about, is much more extreme 50 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 4: than standard anxiety and worry in pregnancy. 51 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,559 Speaker 1: So I'm assuming, Rebecca that somebody's picked up this episode 52 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: because maybe they already feel a little bit of anxiety 53 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: around the sure and they're feeling that anxiety right now 54 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: as they're listening to us. What are some simple strategies 55 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: somebody could do to feel ready to listen to this episode? 56 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 3: Okay, I think, to be honest, to take a breath 57 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: to start with, which China sounds really simplistic, because, of course, 58 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: but we are talking about fear of childbirths, and if 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: somebody really does have that extreme fear, any of these 60 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 3: conversations can be activating for them. So actually just taking 61 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 3: a moment to pause, to take a breath, just to 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 3: know that actually what we'll be talking about will actually 63 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: hopefully give them a much better understanding of what's happening 64 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: for them and what they'll be able to do to 65 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 3: help manage these fears. So I think that's actually really important, 66 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: and it is it's really important to actually talk about 67 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: this for them, for them to know is okay for 68 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: them to hear and listen to this, that none of 69 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: what we're going to talk about is going to harm 70 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 3: them as such. Yeah, that's right. Is it just words? 71 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: They can listen to it and it actually forgets too 72 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 3: much for them, They can just press pause, walk away, 73 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 3: come back when they need to and listen to some more. 74 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: Because there's layers of worries and fears, aren't there. Absolutely, 75 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: can you maybe talk our listeners through what is sort 76 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: of the common worries that people have and whether you 77 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: might be bordering more onto fear or as you talk 78 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: about in a minute, that tocophobia. 79 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, worries tend to be more fluid and flexible. 80 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: They come and go, they sit in our thoughts. They're 81 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 3: not necessarily rigid and fixed. And certainly again about pregnancy 82 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: in childbirth, they're really normal to have. So we would 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 3: expect somebody to have worries around pregnancy in childbirth. But 84 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: fear is rigid, it's intrusing, it's visceral, it's based in 85 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 3: the body more so than the mind. You know, there 86 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: are that there might be thoughts that feel associated with 87 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 3: that fear, but actually the fear really sits blooded. So 88 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 3: there's a real difference between the presentation. It's fear is 89 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 3: much more extreme, I guess. 90 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: And when it is extreme, We've got a word for that, 91 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: which is tocophobia. Can you find that and tell us 92 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: more about what that actually means? 93 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: Okay, So tocophobia is the fear, dread, terror of childbirth 94 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 3: and pregnancy. It's not it's actually a Greek word. It's 95 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 3: an unusual word. It's it's based in Greek origins, like 96 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 3: many of our words tocos meaning childbirth. So the a fear, 97 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: but it's not just when I think about it clinically 98 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: with people I work with, it's not just childbirth itself, 99 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 3: because it really shows up in the process of pregnancy 100 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: as well. 101 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: So people can have a fear of even becoming pregnant. 102 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, even though they want to become pregnant, they 103 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: really want to become pregnant, they want to have a child. 104 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: Well they don't. They certainly want to become pregnant, they 105 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 3: want to have the child, but they can really have 106 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: that fear of pregnancy as well. 107 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: And when someone comes to you as a client, what 108 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: are some of the very common things like that people 109 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: could recognize them in themselves when they're listening to this podcast. 110 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 3: So common things in terms of general like what most 111 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: I think what most women would experience around pregnancy and childbirths. 112 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: You know they're going to have a range of worries 113 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 3: around that, am I ready? Will I actually get pregnant? 114 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: Of course, there's all those fears around how quickly will 115 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,559 Speaker 3: this happen when I get pregnant? Will I be ready 116 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 3: for that? They've got those baby related worries, Will they 117 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: be be okay? Will I be okay? How will I 118 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 3: afford this? What will I do with work maternity? If 119 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 3: there are standard things right that you know we would expect, 120 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 3: how do I stay well? What do we eat? Etc? 121 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: And so, but kind of thinking that that's just standard 122 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 3: stuff that we were going to experience, and we don't 123 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: want to just because they're standard. We don't want to 124 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 3: dismiss any of those worries, of course, but we just 125 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 3: see those as the everyday experience of worries. It's the 126 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: fear that again will step into another layer of that one. 127 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: But these are the things that I expect. Also, actually, 128 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 3: what kind of birth will I have? As we step 129 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 3: into that childbirth space, what kind of birth will I have? 130 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 3: Am I going to have a vaginal birth? Will I 131 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 3: have a C section? Will I cope with birth? How 132 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: much will it hurt? Sounds like an obvious comment, of course, 133 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 3: but really again, how much will this really hurt? Can 134 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 3: I cope with this? Because there is that sense of 135 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 3: I don't know if I can cope with this experience 136 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: there and how I be postpart and of course the 137 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 3: recovery and baby and relationship and so forth. 138 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: And defining tocophobia, how different is someone who you would say, Okay, well, 139 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: this is a diagnosis that's beyond the normal common worries. 140 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: We're now I'm going to talk about this thing called tocophobia. 141 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: What happens? 142 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: What's the tick over that you go okay with the takeover? 143 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: It's interesting because people can talk about similar sears with tocophobia, 144 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: but on a much more extreme level. It's so it 145 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 3: really is the intensity of some of those fears that 146 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 3: they will talk about. If we think about how that 147 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: shows up, I will have I will have women who 148 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: are desperately brightened of getting pregnant again. Even though they 149 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: want to be that way, they might use multiple layers 150 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 3: of contraception. They may not be able to have unprotected sex. 151 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: You know, having unprotected sex can bring terror. They're literally 152 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 3: a visceral bodily terror inside them again, even though they 153 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: want to conceive it can it can show up with nightmares, intrusions, sleeplessness, panic, 154 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 3: It hacks fixations on thinking constantly about pregnancy and childbirth, 155 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 3: avoidance of that. I don't want to talk about it. 156 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: I can't think about it. I don't want to go 157 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 3: to my own to needle appointments. When people are expressing 158 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 3: joy and fear, I was sorry, joy and excitement to them. 159 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 3: They don't want to know. They don't know how to 160 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: respond to those answers. It's a real repel repulsion of 161 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: that excitement that other people might experience. 162 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: And I mean, gosh, that opens up in a whole 163 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: other thing I hadn't thought about before, and that is 164 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: how do people interact with someone that has this really 165 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: fear of childbirth? Most most of us go about and 166 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: think childbirth that is, that is a means to an 167 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: end in a way, yes, yes, that this is a process. 168 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: And how I cope with how I cope with others, 169 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: say medical issues or whatever, but this end here must 170 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: be so difficult for everybody around them, as including. 171 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely it can be really hard for a partner because 172 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 3: you know, often they have had discussions together that they 173 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: want to move to this next stage and have a family, 174 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: they want to have a child, and partner may say, yeah, great, 175 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: this is what we want to do. But the prospective 176 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 3: mum here is caught between wanting to feel the joy 177 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: of where their partner is at but actually feeling this 178 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: dread and fear and terror, and the partner doesn't know 179 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: how to respond to that. Do I just say, come on, 180 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 3: let's get on with it and have a baby, and 181 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: what's your problem? Essentially, this is what all women do 182 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: versus needing to actually be really understanding and supportive. And 183 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 3: I've been really fortunate, in fact, I think many, many, 184 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: the vast majority of women I've worked with with tocophobia 185 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 3: have actually had really supportive partners. And whether they're just 186 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 3: the ones that sort of come through my door, so 187 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: to speak, I'm sure there are some that would find 188 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 3: it hard, and I do believe they if they haven't 189 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 3: experienced anxiety or something like that themselves, it might be 190 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 3: hard for them to wrap their head around, but ultimately 191 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 3: be able to get to that space. We're okay, I 192 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: don't get it, but this is really big for you, 193 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 3: and so I'm going to have to support you with that. 194 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: It's essential. 195 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: How common is it? 196 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 3: The numbers vary. In Australia, they estimate between two and 197 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 3: a half and fourteen percent and women would experienced tocophobia, 198 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 3: but we don't really know how accurate that is. I 199 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 3: think it's really under reported for all. Some of the 200 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: reasons of it's not well understood and the shade and 201 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: embarrassment in talking about that. I don't think clinicians even 202 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 3: recognize its necessarily falling into that range of tocophobia versus 203 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 3: just a woman who's feeling a bit apprehensive. It's just 204 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 3: under research as well. Overseas they put the rates sometimes 205 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: at much higher, but here in Australia, this is where 206 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: we've peaked it at the two and a half to 207 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 3: fourteen percent. 208 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: But even fourteen percent is like, if that is, if 209 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: that is a realistic number, that's a massive amount. Absolutely, Yeah, wow, yeah, absolutely. 210 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: When you talk about diagnosis and who and why it 211 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: doesn't get diagnosed, who is doing the diagnosis. 212 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: Mainly clinicians are psychologists, GPS, obstetrician, psychiatrists, midwives. Even the 213 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: diagnosis I would still say is a loose term when 214 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 3: it comes to tocophobia, because they're not necessarily knowing how 215 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 3: to diagnose. There are some psychometric assessments, but really they're 216 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 3: not used commonly in a clinical purpose thing or research oriented, 217 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 3: so most people wouldn't even reserve or know about those. 218 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: I would have a lot of women referred to me 219 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 3: who simply feeling anxious, yes, And it's only once I 220 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 3: need them and start talking with them that I actually 221 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 3: will assess the real as severity of that anxiety. Certainly, 222 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 3: sometimes the initial referra is aware that this is quite 223 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: an extreme form of anxiety, but they won't realize it 224 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 3: as tocophobic. 225 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: And are there levels of tocophobia like could you have 226 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: a phobia about having an epidural, for example, and that 227 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: was really the only thing that you've even or would 228 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: that still come under that sort of class as being tocophobic? 229 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 3: So it depends on It's a good question, and it 230 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 3: really depends on the severity of that. There are levels 231 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 3: within tocophobia certainly that I'm not sure we would set 232 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: such specific levels. You know, at its base it is. 233 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: It does sit amongst an anxiety disorder, I guess, and 234 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 3: so like in the anxiety disorder, there's a spectrum of 235 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 3: presentations there. We do have a couple of sub categories 236 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: I guess that we would think of, Oh, it's sort 237 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 3: of primary tocophobia and secondary tacophobia, being that tacophobia before 238 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 3: a woman has even conceived or had a pregnancy, had baby, 239 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: and often that tacophobia develops actually much much earlier, before 240 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 3: they're even considering having a family. Some people would describe 241 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 3: feeling this this terror even in adolescence when they start, 242 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: you know, everybody starts talking about when you grow up, 243 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: you're going to have a baby, blah blah, and they 244 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: might notice those feelings beginning then. For others, of course, 245 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 3: it's later. Secondary tocophobia is after after you've experienced a 246 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 3: pregnancy and birth, and so often it is associated with 247 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 3: quite likely your experience of birth then right in that reason, 248 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: But within all of that there's still that range from 249 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 3: lower level to extreme. Is somebody who's just really frightened, 250 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 3: I don't even't say just as if that's nothing, of course, 251 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: but if they're fearful of, say an epidural it's much 252 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: more more specific and doesn't necessarily have the layers that 253 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: sit behind a tacophobic presentation. I guess, so certainly maybe 254 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: a fear, but it may not actually be a true 255 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 3: sort of tacophobic presentation. 256 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: That's very interesting because I know, you know, just from 257 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: being in our clinic and hearing people like I often 258 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: check to our pregnant women and a lot of them 259 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: are really fearful of needles. That seems to be a 260 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: very common fear. But again, from what you've just said, 261 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that's tocophobia. Yeah, it's a very 262 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: defined fear it is. 263 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: Tocophobia is much more layered and complex. You know, there 264 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: are many reasons I guess that can sit underneath that, 265 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 3: and so I'd be cautious to say a single feel 266 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 3: like that would be that the true tocophobia is still 267 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: a fear and still something that can be managed. It 268 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 3: may be a sober as needles. I remember absolutely not 269 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 3: wanting to have an epidural in my first pregnancy or 270 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 3: birth because I was just I don't know, I didn't 271 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 3: want Actually, all I heard about was the headache that 272 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: can come afterwards if it doesn't happen correctly, And I 273 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: thought I'd actually had a bit of a challenging pregnancy, 274 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: and I thought, oh, I want to get to this 275 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: birth and just have the best time afterwards. I do 276 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 3: not want to have the possibility now. Of course, I 277 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: realized now that that's not as common. But that might 278 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 3: have been a fear and apprehension of mine, but was 279 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 3: certainly not a tocophobia presentation. Four people that perhaps do 280 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 3: have tocophobia. If I just heard the ambulance because you're 281 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: at a hospital. Sorry, I know, I apologize. I've got 282 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 3: three hospitals outside my windows. 283 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: So Rebecca, when it comes to someone getting tocophobia, is 284 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: there are other underlying risk factors for those people? 285 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: Yes, there can be me the development. I guess there's 286 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 3: a number of factors that essentially increase somebody's vulnerability to 287 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 3: tocophobia and developing a tocophobic presentation. But it's really important 288 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 3: to say that not any of these on their own 289 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: are causative. So anxiety and mood disorders can be part 290 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: of that picture. You know, Tocophobia, as I've said, sits 291 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 3: within that broader anxiety space. The many people that anxiety 292 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 3: will absolutely not go on to develop tocophobia. It's just 293 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: not as simple as one plus one equals to things 294 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 3: like a person's sense of control. How comfortable they feel 295 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 3: with uncertain or discomfort plays a really important role. Actually, 296 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 3: their relational and attachment history is relevant, their relationship with 297 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 3: their own body, their values, beliefs around parenting, experiences of trauma, 298 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: they're really important to consider, Actually, sexual trauma, medical trauma, 299 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 3: previously distressing birth, experiences of loss, perinatal loss, miscarriage, still birth, 300 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 3: near natal deaths, their significant experiences. Of course, that can 301 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 3: really influence somebody's experiences, particularly of secondary togophobia there or 302 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 3: of course even if they've not experienced that themselves, they 303 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 3: might fear that in their initial experiences. Support systems. If 304 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: somebody is really unsupported, if they don't have a significance 305 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 3: village around them, they need to feel emotionally held and supported, partners, 306 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 3: care givens, the community. I've actually worked with clients with 307 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 3: their own birth was experienced by their mother as distressing, 308 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 3: and so they've heard the stories of their birth or 309 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: a stranger. As this might sound, they actually have a 310 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 3: felt sense at that birth that still sits within their body. 311 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 3: Really on a cellular level, I've had many women I've 312 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: worked with that have this absolute undercurrent of fear, and 313 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: they really have no sense of where that's coming from 314 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: until we actually start to experience it. We start to 315 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 3: explore their birth, and of course they're going on their 316 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 3: memories and not their memory, sorry, they're their mother's memories generally, 317 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 3: or their family members' memories. But they have this overriding 318 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 3: sense of visceral senses. Something could happen, and we do 319 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: know that things sit in our cellular memory really and 320 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: activate that in our body and our emotions. So it's 321 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: a naked picture biological, psychological, relational. You know that it's 322 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 3: somebody's attachment and relationship histories is also of course really important. 323 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: So we want to try to understand all of those 324 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 3: things when I'm working with somebody. 325 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: God, that is a lot to unpack. And like if 326 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: I look at our community and our society, any person 327 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: listening to this could pick out or two things. 328 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 3: And that's right, that's exactly right, which is why it's 329 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: important to say not any of those things. It's they're 330 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 3: not caused. 331 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 2: Here. 332 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: We're looking at a multi factored complex layer that since 333 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 3: they're trying to understand how each thing wheeze into another, 334 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 3: and somebody might be listening to this actually brigid and say, well, 335 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: I haven't experienced any of those things, but I'm still 336 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: experiencing tocophobia. That's you know, that's that's okay. Every week. 337 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 3: We just want to understand where their experience comes from 338 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 3: and what it looks like for them. 339 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if it's okay for you to relate 340 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: perhaps what like a patient or sorry, a client has 341 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,479 Speaker 1: said to you about what a typical day looks like 342 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: for them, come into childbirth or even thinking about becoming pregnant. 343 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, good question. We can look at that in two levels. 344 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 3: Is the clinical what a clinical presentation that we look for? 345 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 3: So clinical symptomology really if I'm being clinical about it now, 346 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 3: and that can be hard to really fully captured it. 347 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: I think clinical language doesn't really fully capture it. But 348 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: I will hear things like we'll look for things like 349 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 3: panic again, panic around pregnancy or birth when it's discussed, 350 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 3: constant dread, nightmares, catastrophic thinking, intrusive images, enormously strong physical 351 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 3: anxiety within their body, hyper arousal, fleet disruption, reassurance seeking, distress, 352 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 3: all those things. But again they sound sterile, and that's 353 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 3: what either clinician will look for and might write in 354 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 3: my report or such. But what we want to think 355 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 3: about is, yet, how does it show up every day? 356 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 3: It's the avoidance of pregnancy, It's the avoidance of sex. 357 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 3: It's the multi made of contraception of I think I'm 358 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 3: mentioned before. I've had women that are using multiple forms 359 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 3: of contraception, and they are still testing for pregnancy every day, 360 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 3: just in case the're pregnant. They're using contraception. It is 361 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: the constant talking about it with their partners. I can 362 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 3: I do this? What will this be like for me? 363 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 3: They feel exhaustion, they feel isolated, they feel a sense 364 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 3: of well loneliness because people don't understand this. They feel 365 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 3: shame for feeling tocophobia's society doesn't expect women to experience 366 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 3: such intense fear around childbirth. 367 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: So, Rebetta, do these people realize that their fear is 368 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: more than their friends? 369 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: They do, really good question, they do, But I think 370 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 3: it takes time to be honest at first. I think 371 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: they just think there's something wrong with them and they 372 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 3: must be exaggerating their experience compared to other women. So 373 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 3: I don't think they necessarily realize think, gosh, what's wrong 374 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 3: with me that I am overreacting in this way, because 375 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 3: everybody is apprehensive about pregnancy, and of course everybody everybody 376 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 3: should be apprehensive about pregnancy in child, that's to a degree. 377 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 3: I mean, once upon a time, it was the most 378 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 3: dangerous thing that we could do. And that's where this 379 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: fear and its origin really sits from. You know, this 380 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 3: is a this is a primal refix in us to 381 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: avoid something that's ultimately incredibly dangerous back in you know, 382 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 3: generations upon generations ago, when it really was medically dangerous 383 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: to be having a baby. Now, of course, nowhere near 384 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 3: that experience, and sure we know things happen, of course, 385 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 3: and we don't want to minimize that, but it's it's 386 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 3: you know, it's a well managed experience now, so I 387 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 3: think of sidetracked. Therefore you bridget sorry, because I explaining 388 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 3: that sort of fear response is actually quite important as 389 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 3: to where that comes from and why it becomes this 390 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 3: fear rather than just this anxiety. So this normal apprehension, 391 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 3: So women sink, well, I've just got this apprehension like 392 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 3: everybody else, what's wrong with me that I feel it 393 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 3: in this way? And they don't talk about it. I 394 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 3: you know, I saw somebody the other day, you had 395 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: no idea, and they've just been talking with everybody and 396 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 3: they were thinking, what's wrong with me? Because my friends 397 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 3: are feeling apprehensive as well about this. But why am 398 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 3: I throwing up even before I'm pregnant at the thought 399 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 3: of being pregnant as such? You know, what is wrong 400 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 3: with me that I'm having this experience? So it's really 401 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: as they start to talk about it and think about 402 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 3: it more and then perhaps talk to hopefully their medical practitioners, 403 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 3: they realize, Okay, yeah, something's different. My worries are bigger. 404 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: And you've talked a little bit about people avoiding getting 405 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: pregnant and the double contraception. Do people also choose to 406 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: be permanently have a permanent solution to contraception because of 407 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: the fear of tocophobia? 408 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 3: Yes, yes they do. They do. I've really had people 409 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 3: make a conscious decision that they will not go down 410 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 3: the path of having children because of fear, or they 411 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 3: will use those permanent contraception methods. It are. There are 412 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 3: some women and it's obviously hard to think of it 413 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 3: in this way, but it is not uncommon at all 414 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: for somebody with extreme tocophobia to actually interrupt or disrupt 415 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 3: their pregnancies when they've become pregnant, having terminations and so forth, 416 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: even when it's a very planned pregnancy and a wanted pregnancy. Sometimes, 417 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 3: to be honest, even when it's an IVF pregnancy, which 418 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 3: is as planned as you can get, really, and that 419 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: can bring enormous guilt and shame, these mixed feelings of 420 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 3: relief then guilt and shame afterwards. And it's never a 421 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 3: decision that's made lightly. It's not something to be talked 422 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 3: about lightly, of course, And that just shows a level 423 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 3: of real terror that somebody can be experiencing. 424 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: I want to get onto because I'm feeling anxious right now. 425 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: I want to get onto. Now we've diagnosed it, what 426 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: happens next? Like how does his treatment path go? 427 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 3: Okay, okay, really good question. And that's the one that 428 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 3: I actually love talking about because well, it's what I 429 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 3: get to do every day is do that sort of work. 430 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 3: First of all, I think somebody choosing the right care 431 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: team for them. If let's say they are pregnant already, 432 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 3: they really are actually affected, even if they're not. I've 433 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 3: had many people go on and choose their prospective care 434 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 3: team before they're pregnant, and that is then really that's 435 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 3: really helpful to have a psychologically informed GP obstetrician, an 436 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 3: obstetrician that has great and midwives perhaps working anti natally 437 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 3: with them. Listing their support, their their sort of family 438 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 3: and friends support team of course is really important as well. 439 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: So those things and getting those in place is important 440 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 3: to start with. But in terms of clinically what we 441 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 3: can do in it, and it is because I hear 442 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 3: just say, is feeling anxious hearing about this because we 443 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: are we're talking about terror and somebody's terror there dread 444 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 3: and that can absolutely be activating. But it's so important 445 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 3: to say is that this can very much be managed 446 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 3: and supported. And I've worked with so many beautiful women 447 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: that have gone on to have their babies and just 448 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: have this wonderful experience actually in fact so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 449 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 3: I am. It would be wrong to say constantly amazed, 450 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: because I've seen it so often I shouldn't be, but 451 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 3: I guess because I can see where they start with 452 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: this place of intense terror, that it's just so wonderful 453 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: to see when they're holding their babies in their arms 454 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 3: actually and spinning, because really this is not about having 455 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 3: their baby, This is not about holding their baby for 456 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 3: the first time. This is not about bringing their baby 457 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 3: home that is something they want to do. It is 458 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 3: the pregnancy and the childbirth. So when you see a 459 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: woman holding their baby at the end of this process, 460 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 3: it's yeah, it's quite wonderful. But what does treatment look like? Okay, 461 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 3: a number of things. I think. First of all, it's 462 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 3: really important to explore their experiences. We've been thinking. We 463 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 3: want to understand those layers that's there, what's shaped their fear, 464 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 3: what's maintaining it, what meaning it holds for them. There 465 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 3: are practical strategies that we can look at managing things 466 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 3: like intrusive imagery, reducing that physiological arousalal, working with panic. 467 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 3: There are strategies such as you know, modalities that they use. CBT, 468 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: which is acceptance and commitment therapy can be really useful 469 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 3: there when there's trauma involved, whether that's a previous birth 470 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 3: or medical experiences, earlier life experience, they're even completely unrelated 471 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 3: to birth or pregnancy. Vies talk therapy MDR that's in 472 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 3: relation to trauma and specifically on anxiety, so that can 473 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 3: be really helpful. If there's a loss, we want to 474 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 3: support that experience of grief that's really central. But it's 475 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: not about strategies, because strategies will help and they're very 476 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 3: very useful, but it's not as simple as applying a 477 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 3: few strategies and some be able to work through through. 478 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 3: I tend to work much for more from a relational lens, 479 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: so really understanding the person in context, their history, their 480 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: relationship with their body, with themselves, with their family, their 481 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 3: sense of safety, how all of that is shaping their 482 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 3: experience is there. It's not just it's it's probably really 483 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 3: important to set realistic expectation that it's not just a 484 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 3: few sessions of learning techniques. It's really building a deeper 485 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 3: level of safety and trust between myself and a client, 486 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: between them, their family, their caregivers, and and often that 487 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: will span the course of their pregnancy. I've worked with 488 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 3: many people leading up to pregnancy, for months, sometimes leading 489 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 3: up to pregnancy, then during their pregnancy leading up to birth. 490 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 3: It's I said, enlisting is supportive, caregiving tea really really 491 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 3: important there. 492 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: And once the baby is born, what does the mum 493 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: feel about the birth then and the bonding that you know, 494 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: if there's any bonding issues with the baby. 495 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: Really really really important question actually and one that we 496 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 3: talk about carefully. Actually, as I said before that this 497 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 3: is not a fear of having a baby so I 498 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: was bringing a baby home. This is the fhere of pregnancy. 499 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 3: And however, tocophobia can have an impact on that mother 500 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 3: baby attachment. But it really doesn't have to. And that's 501 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 3: the bit I really want to specify. It doesn't have to. 502 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 3: The bond between a mother and a baby is complex 503 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 3: and it doesn't happen in a single moment after birth. 504 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 3: It develops over time during pregnancy and across that postpartum period, 505 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 3: not even in just those first few hours, days or weeks. 506 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 3: It develops in months really following birth. We talk about 507 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 3: growing the baby. We grow a baby in our belly 508 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 3: and in our mind. We grow a concept of ourselves 509 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 3: as mother throughout the pregnancy and again in that early 510 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: postpartum experience. From an attachment perspective, what matters is not perfection, 511 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: but the ongoing relationship. You know, a caregiver's capacity to notice, 512 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 3: respond and repair actually over time and there are many 513 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 3: protective factors. There are many influencing factors that are there. 514 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 3: So we want to be mindful and office support and 515 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 3: know that it can have an impact. But it doesn't 516 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 3: have to. That's that's so important to say. So many 517 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 3: of the mothers that've worked with have got this wonderful, amazing, 518 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: deep connection with their baby. And so I want every 519 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 3: mother out there who or potential mother who's experiencing tocophobia 520 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 3: to know that this does not have to define their 521 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 3: parenting experience. 522 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: And you mentioned you know that it's not perfect. This 523 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: mother bond, no relationship and perfection is a big problem with. 524 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: In general. 525 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: And I don't know whether you've got any comment on it, 526 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: but whether it's more apparent in younger generations because you know, 527 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: they have perfection shown to them all the time with 528 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: social maffare And I just feel. 529 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 3: For the pressure, the pressure. There is the pressure to 530 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 3: do everything perfect now. And I think underlying not all 531 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 3: of tocophobia, but a chunk of that is this desire 532 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 3: to be in control of everything, a difficulty sitting with 533 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 3: the discomfort of being uncomfortable. We avoid any discomfort now, 534 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 3: we are constantly scrolling to avoid discomfort, we are researching 535 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 3: to avoid discomfort. We had these perfect images presented to us, 536 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 3: these Instagram photos and images of mothers just beaming through 537 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 3: their pregnancy and having no issues whatsoever. But of course, 538 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 3: we know that that's not the full experience. That is 539 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 3: just one moment that is captured in that photo rather 540 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 3: than a whole experience. So working on that deeper societal 541 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 3: level of challenging perfection and that desire parenting is gosh, 542 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 3: it's just in fact, perfection is damaging in perenting. It 543 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 3: really is. Sorry, it's the big word to use, but 544 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 3: we are setting our children up if we are trying 545 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 3: to be perfect. That does not teach them about the 546 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 3: world of light. So we know beautiful relationships and wonderful, 547 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 3: wonderfully resilient, strong, healthy children are raised with what we 548 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 3: call lots of ruptures and repairs where things go wrong, 549 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 3: and an attuned parent can step in and repair from 550 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 3: those moments and continue to support their. 551 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: Child at the very start. I just want to pick 552 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: up on that. Sometimes it might be actually the stories 553 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: that we hear about our own birth. 554 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 3: And the glee that. 555 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: Feels like some mums talk to their kids about how 556 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: their babies were born in quitting, how can we be 557 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: better at that? Like it can be a trauma for 558 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: the woman who wants to relate it to someone. How 559 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 1: can we do it meeting that child so we're not 560 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: also causing issues for them. 561 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 3: Such an important issue that you may see. How can 562 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 3: we talk respect hopefully about birth stories? How can we share? 563 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 3: I think society, humankind actually we well, we communicate through stories, 564 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 3: don't we. Stories have passed down through generations and that's 565 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 3: an important part of community in fact. But there is 566 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 3: sometimes this glee, Oh let me tell you what happened 567 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 3: to me, and that can very much be traumatizing to 568 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 3: a woman. So we actually just want to talk, sure 569 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 3: we might First of all, we want to actually ask 570 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: whether somebody wants to hear stories around child perth. You know, 571 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 3: we want to say would just be helpful to hear 572 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 3: or not. We want to tie down our language when 573 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 3: we're talking about that. We want to be mindful of 574 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 3: our audience. Who are you talking to? I think an 575 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: interesting point actually is this very important birth trauma inquiry 576 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 3: that's been happening a course over these the last couple 577 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 3: of years, and of course we've really wanted to raise 578 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 3: awareness and verse trauma and work out what we do 579 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 3: to support. There is a flip side to that is 580 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 3: that what women are hearing all the time is birth trauma, 581 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 3: birth trauma, birth trauma and hearing these women's experiences or 582 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 3: how it's reported in the medium more than anything, and 583 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 3: so they're hearing this is what birth is like. Birth 584 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 3: is just traumatic. But actually, whilst birth is absolutely challenging, 585 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 3: and we are doing something that well, unless we've done 586 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 3: it before, we have not experienced before. As such, it 587 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 3: does not have to be the trauma that we assume 588 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 3: it could be. In fact, I had one mum I 589 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 3: worked with. I worked with her many moms leading up 590 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,720 Speaker 3: to her pregnancy. She was experiencing significant hocophobia and throughout 591 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 3: her pregnancy and she was going really well, that was fantastic, 592 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 3: And then I spoke to her. She actually delivered just 593 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 3: slightly early, very marginally early, and I spoke to her 594 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 3: obstetrition afterwards, and she rang me and she said, oh, Rebecca, 595 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 3: she had really medically traumatic burst, like it all happened, 596 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 3: and really Mum and bub were well that it all happened. 597 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 3: And I sat there with, oh my goodness, I've just 598 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 3: spent all this time, what's going to happen? In fact, 599 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 3: that Mum was not traumatized at all following that burke, 600 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 3: and when I spoke to her about it, her hair 601 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 3: team they were amazing. They kept her informed, they talked 602 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 3: with her, they reassured her, they were compassionate, empathic, and 603 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 3: attune to her. She had a sense of what was 604 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 3: going on, she had to say, so we don't want 605 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 3: to assume. 606 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,439 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's our big thing too, with even from 607 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 1: the listeners that call in, and so through our speak 608 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: pipe people to call in and yes, you ask questions, 609 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of the time they'll go through the 610 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: list of things that happened in their birth and Pat 611 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: and I will be thinking, oh, wow, this sounds really dramatic, 612 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: and I'll say, but because I had, you know, suiting 613 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: our own horn het, because I had listened to this 614 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: episode and I've done this and I've done this program, 615 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: and I knew exactly that's right, and at the end 616 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: of the day that didn't feel traumatic. And I just, 617 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, I think getting good information, absolutely unbiased, and 618 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: thereat of knowledge because I think actually so many times 619 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: we do take on board the knowledge that we want 620 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: to hear. So we'll listen to the birth stories that 621 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: match our own hope for our birth, you know. So yeah, 622 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,959 Speaker 1: that's really that's what our hope is, is that people 623 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: have a breadth of knowledge that they. 624 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 3: Can, and I think it's to be honest, I think 625 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 3: you do that really well. My kids are well in 626 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 3: their twenties now, so I respectfully don't genuinely listen to 627 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 3: your podcast purely because I'm not at the point of 628 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 3: conception and frequency that ship sailed for me. However, in 629 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 3: prefer for doing this today, I thought, I really want 630 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 3: to sit there, and you know, I knew of your 631 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 3: podcast certainly, but I haven't listened so that I'm going 632 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 3: to sit here and listen. And I've heard your episode 633 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 3: recently with Jesse hur delivered her twins, of course, and 634 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 3: I loved what I really loved from a clinical perspective 635 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 3: with how you discussed that. You know, there's a whole 636 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 3: recipe that could have been quite traumatic. It may have been, 637 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 3: you know, not wanting to predispose anything there, but the 638 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 3: way you and Pat spoke about that and actually just 639 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 3: paused and broke that apart medically in just a grounded 640 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 3: way versus, oh my gosh, it's happened, and this happened, 641 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 3: and this happened. That is a respectful way we need 642 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 3: to talk about it. That actually reduces me what to 643 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 3: ground those stories and reduce that fear in that regard 644 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 3: and say, Okay, things can go wrong, sometimes things can 645 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 3: be really big, but actually they can be managed and 646 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 3: they can be dealt with. 647 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: I have loved this talk with you, Rebetta, and we 648 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: could go on, but I do want to finish with 649 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: my last question, which is if someone's listened to this 650 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: podcast and thought, actually, you know, my fears feel the same. 651 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 3: Effort talking, yes, what should they do? Tell somebody to 652 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 3: start with. I think I know that's that's obvious to say, 653 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 3: but really they need to just talk with somebody. Maybe 654 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: it's the partner to actually to start with, tell them 655 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 3: how much this is bothering them, them what fears really 656 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 3: sit there? Talk to their GP if they are already pregnant, 657 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 3: talk to their obstetrician or midwife. So that's the first 658 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 3: step is tell somebody, even if you just use gentle 659 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 3: language like I'm having these worries that they feel bigger, 660 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 3: you know, they feel bigger, and I'd like to talk 661 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 3: with somebody about that. Finding. Of course, I'm always going 662 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 3: suggest talking to a psychologist because that's what I do. 663 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 3: But talking to a peri natally trained psychologist, actually that's 664 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 3: really important because whilst this is a form of anxiety. 665 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 3: It's a serious specific it is not a simple soobia. 666 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 3: Uh you know, I know when we were chatting on 667 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 3: and now the day you ask me the question around 668 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 3: a rachnophobia and the same thing. That's right and exactly 669 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 3: and it's and it's sure it's a phobia, but it 670 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,919 Speaker 3: is much more conflict from lad as we've been talking about. 671 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 3: So you actually want to talk with somebody that's really 672 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 3: peri natally trained in that way. There is a great organization, 673 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 3: the Center for Perinatal Psychology, which is nationwide and that's 674 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 3: really great. You can jump on them. They've got a 675 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 3: list of psychologists. You know, I'm certainly assiliated with them. 676 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 3: Just to disclose up, but it's they have that they 677 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 3: have clinicians in each state that really are peri natally trained, 678 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 3: and that's that's important. COPE, Gidget Panda, they're all organizations 679 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 3: that can step in and provide that perinatal support as well. 680 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 3: Getting support early. Getting support I've certainly had wouldn't come 681 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 3: to me in the last few weeks of their pregnancy. 682 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 3: That's tricky. So we want to try to work as 683 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 3: early as we can with somebody to support that experience. 684 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 1: Right, All right, well we'll put all those links in 685 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: our show notes. So okay, let's flick there. And if 686 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: you're lucky enough to be in Westmead, is that where 687 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: you are? West Maid? 688 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 2: Well? 689 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 3: I be my main clinics at Beecroft actually, but I 690 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 3: do consulting out here at Westmead. So it's just where 691 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 3: I am today, surrounded, as you said by fible hostels. 692 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 3: I don't think there's been too many angulances couple go 693 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 3: too ready today they're pretty good, that's right. Oh, telehealth 694 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 3: is always telehealth. In fact, I have lots of people 695 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 3: in South Australia for some reason that I'm seeing at 696 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 3: the moments. So yeah, well, way it works. 697 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's very difficult to get the right person. Allow, 698 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: it has to be somebody that's perinatively trained, but it's 699 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: also trained someone who you get on with as. 700 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 3: Well and who you feel like yeah, yeah, that's actually 701 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 3: the critical bit. Thank you for raising that and it gosh, 702 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 3: of course that doesn't need to be me, whoever it 703 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 3: is that you see, because this is a relational experience. 704 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 3: You need to build that relationship, that appropriate clinical relationship 705 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 3: with whoever is your caregiver, including your obstetrician or midwife 706 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 3: or GP I think, but certainly psychology. You want to 707 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 3: build that sense of safety in trust so that you 708 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 3: can be vulnerable with them and really explore this within. 709 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 3: That's what will help you. 710 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect, all right, well, thank you so much for 711 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: joining us. 712 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 3: Rebecca, my pleasure, Thanks Bridge, and it's been great. 713 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening to our conversation 714 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: with Rebecca Wheeler. Rebecca did mention lots of different resources 715 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: for people and will put those obviously in the show notes. 716 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: So to get to the show for those that don't know, 717 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: you go into either your Spotify or iTunes or wherever 718 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast, and it'll all be there 719 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: in written form. You can just click on the links 720 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 1: while you're there. We would love a review five stars. 721 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: If you think five stars is warranted, we would be 722 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: very grateful. It helps to push our podcast out to 723 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: other listeners so they can also get the informed information 724 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: that you guys are getting, and that's what we want 725 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: for everybody to have a really informed pregnancy and birth. 726 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: All right, everyone, until next week, we'll be back in 727 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: your ears, so have a really good week and good 728 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:46,839 Speaker 1: luck growing most babies By for now. Hey, even though 729 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,439 Speaker 1: doctor Pat is well a doctor and we get lots 730 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: of other doctors and other experts on our podcast, I 731 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 1: just need to remind you that this podcast is for 732 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: informational purposes only. We share lots of medical insights and experience, 733 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: but everything we talk about is general in nature and 734 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,320 Speaker 1: may not apply to your specific situation. Please always consult 735 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: with your own health care provider for your individual medical advice. 736 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 1: When you grow your baby,