1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:13,312 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. Oh hi there, 3 00:00:13,392 --> 00:00:16,992 Speaker 1: it's Claire here. Welcome back to True Crime Conversations this month, 4 00:00:17,112 --> 00:00:19,712 Speaker 1: As you might know from last week's episode, we're re 5 00:00:19,712 --> 00:00:22,552 Speaker 1: releasing a few of our early cases conversations from the 6 00:00:22,712 --> 00:00:24,471 Speaker 1: very first year of this show that many of you 7 00:00:24,632 --> 00:00:25,312 Speaker 1: may have missed. 8 00:00:25,712 --> 00:00:25,872 Speaker 2: Now. 9 00:00:25,912 --> 00:00:28,472 Speaker 1: These stories are just as fascinating now as they were 10 00:00:28,512 --> 00:00:30,312 Speaker 1: back then, and they shine a light on some of 11 00:00:30,352 --> 00:00:34,711 Speaker 1: the lesser known, by incredibly significant parts of Australia's criminal history. 12 00:00:35,351 --> 00:00:38,592 Speaker 1: This week, we're taking you into the world of Dulcie Markham, 13 00:00:38,632 --> 00:00:41,871 Speaker 1: also known as the Angel of Death. She has been 14 00:00:41,872 --> 00:00:46,152 Speaker 1: called Australia's most beautiful bad woman, and for very good reason. 15 00:00:46,592 --> 00:00:49,711 Speaker 1: Dulcie wasn't just connected to the criminal underworld of Sydney, 16 00:00:49,711 --> 00:00:54,072 Speaker 1: Brisbane and Melbourne, she survived it. In fact, seven of 17 00:00:54,112 --> 00:00:57,792 Speaker 1: her known lovers were murdered, earning her the chilling nickname. 18 00:00:58,232 --> 00:01:01,392 Speaker 1: In this episode, author and historian Lee Straw joins Jesse 19 00:01:01,512 --> 00:01:04,472 Speaker 1: Stevens to take us through Dulcie's life from a fifteen 20 00:01:04,552 --> 00:01:07,432 Speaker 1: year old sex worker in nineteen twenty willem Aloo to 21 00:01:07,512 --> 00:01:11,351 Speaker 1: one of the country's most powerful and infamous female figures 22 00:01:11,392 --> 00:01:15,952 Speaker 1: in crime, and eventually her quiet disappearance into suburban obscurity. 23 00:01:16,432 --> 00:01:18,791 Speaker 1: If you've never heard of Dulcie Markham before, you are 24 00:01:18,831 --> 00:01:21,831 Speaker 1: in for quite the gripping history lesson today, one that 25 00:01:21,911 --> 00:01:25,032 Speaker 1: shows just how far one woman could go in the 26 00:01:25,112 --> 00:01:28,152 Speaker 1: underworld and what it cost her. Let us know if 27 00:01:28,152 --> 00:01:30,551 Speaker 1: you're enjoying our earlier episodes by getting in touch with 28 00:01:30,631 --> 00:01:32,072 Speaker 1: us at the links in our show notes. 29 00:01:33,672 --> 00:01:38,032 Speaker 2: Dulcie Markham's eyes were an engrossing light blue complimented by 30 00:01:38,112 --> 00:01:42,392 Speaker 2: soft blonde curls and bright red lips. I'd rate her 31 00:01:42,392 --> 00:01:46,551 Speaker 2: twelve out of ten, said one detective. More than just 32 00:01:46,592 --> 00:01:51,272 Speaker 2: another beauty. Dulcie became a notorious crime figure in Australian history. 33 00:01:52,992 --> 00:01:57,832 Speaker 2: She was nicknamed the Angel of Death or the Black Widow. 34 00:01:58,912 --> 00:02:02,952 Speaker 2: She was Australia's most beautiful bad woman and to love 35 00:02:03,032 --> 00:02:08,912 Speaker 2: her often proved lethal. One crime reporter said, Dulcie saw 36 00:02:09,232 --> 00:02:13,832 Speaker 2: more violence and death than any other woman in Australia's history. 37 00:02:15,272 --> 00:02:19,992 Speaker 2: So what exactly did Dulcie see and can she be 38 00:02:20,072 --> 00:02:24,232 Speaker 2: blamed for all the destruction that took place around her? 39 00:02:25,232 --> 00:02:29,432 Speaker 2: I'm Jesse Stevens and this is True Crime Conversations, a 40 00:02:29,552 --> 00:02:33,832 Speaker 2: Muma Maya podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 41 00:02:33,832 --> 00:02:36,392 Speaker 2: speaking to the people who know the most about them. 42 00:02:36,992 --> 00:02:40,792 Speaker 2: In this episode, I'm joined by historian and author Lee Straw, 43 00:02:41,312 --> 00:02:44,472 Speaker 2: author of Angel of Death, which explores the life of 44 00:02:44,552 --> 00:02:53,552 Speaker 2: Dulcie Markham. So I want to start on January eleven, 45 00:02:53,672 --> 00:02:57,712 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty five, where a woman named Dulcie Markham is 46 00:02:57,792 --> 00:03:03,192 Speaker 2: found in excruciating pain inside her Bondaye flat. What kind 47 00:03:03,232 --> 00:03:06,912 Speaker 2: of injuries has she sustained and what we know about 48 00:03:06,952 --> 00:03:07,872 Speaker 2: what's happened to her. 49 00:03:08,552 --> 00:03:10,272 Speaker 3: She sustained pretty horrific injury. 50 00:03:10,352 --> 00:03:15,992 Speaker 4: She's got punctured lungs, broken ribs, other broken bones, and, 51 00:03:16,232 --> 00:03:19,712 Speaker 4: as you say, in pretty excruciating pain. There's a number 52 00:03:19,712 --> 00:03:22,672 Speaker 4: of conflicting stories about it. One of the eyewitnesses had 53 00:03:22,712 --> 00:03:24,952 Speaker 4: said that she'd been thrown from the second story of 54 00:03:24,992 --> 00:03:28,312 Speaker 4: the Bondai Flats. Another story was that it was much 55 00:03:28,432 --> 00:03:31,872 Speaker 4: higher or it was a different area, And there's stories 56 00:03:31,872 --> 00:03:35,552 Speaker 4: that she was found inside her accommodation and another story 57 00:03:35,552 --> 00:03:38,072 Speaker 4: that she was outside. But really it was horrific what 58 00:03:38,152 --> 00:03:39,192 Speaker 4: she suffered. 59 00:03:39,192 --> 00:03:42,312 Speaker 2: And what did she tell police had happened to her. 60 00:03:42,352 --> 00:03:43,232 Speaker 2: What was her story? 61 00:03:43,472 --> 00:03:43,992 Speaker 3: Very little. 62 00:03:44,112 --> 00:03:47,512 Speaker 4: She abided by the underworld code of silence, so she 63 00:03:47,512 --> 00:03:49,672 Speaker 4: didn't name names, and she just said simply that she'd 64 00:03:49,672 --> 00:03:50,632 Speaker 4: fallen down the stairs. 65 00:03:50,672 --> 00:03:53,872 Speaker 3: But the detectives were, you know, it was pretty obvious. 66 00:03:53,512 --> 00:03:56,592 Speaker 4: That there were more horrific injuries that had been sustained 67 00:03:56,632 --> 00:03:58,232 Speaker 4: rather than just falling down the stairs. 68 00:03:58,752 --> 00:04:00,672 Speaker 2: Was she living with anyone or was there any kind 69 00:04:00,712 --> 00:04:03,872 Speaker 2: of record of who had been around, because it is 70 00:04:03,912 --> 00:04:05,792 Speaker 2: bizarre to just sort of fall down the stairs in 71 00:04:05,832 --> 00:04:07,992 Speaker 2: your own home when you have injuries like. 72 00:04:07,952 --> 00:04:10,072 Speaker 4: That, it's bizarre, But when you have a reputation like 73 00:04:10,152 --> 00:04:13,312 Speaker 4: she did, detect this very much on it. So at 74 00:04:13,312 --> 00:04:16,192 Speaker 4: the time she had a couple of lovers, but she 75 00:04:16,312 --> 00:04:19,272 Speaker 4: wasn't in an ongoing relationship at that point. 76 00:04:19,791 --> 00:04:23,792 Speaker 2: And this notorious figure who obviously her reputation preceded her dulcy, 77 00:04:24,632 --> 00:04:27,272 Speaker 2: what was that reputation? What did police think about her 78 00:04:27,352 --> 00:04:28,112 Speaker 2: at that time? 79 00:04:28,752 --> 00:04:32,992 Speaker 4: Her reputation was nationwide. She had nationwide notoriety. She was 80 00:04:33,032 --> 00:04:35,432 Speaker 4: known as the Angel of Death. She was also known 81 00:04:36,192 --> 00:04:39,232 Speaker 4: for a very long career in the violent underworlds of Sydney, 82 00:04:39,272 --> 00:04:41,752 Speaker 4: Melbourne and Brisbane and popped up in Paris in nineteen 83 00:04:41,792 --> 00:04:44,352 Speaker 4: forty six and was quickly shunted back to the Eastern 84 00:04:44,352 --> 00:04:47,112 Speaker 4: States as quick as the police could get her back here. 85 00:04:47,152 --> 00:04:50,952 Speaker 4: So she's got this pretty notorious reputation. As I say, 86 00:04:51,392 --> 00:04:53,192 Speaker 4: she also has a reputation as one of the most 87 00:04:53,192 --> 00:04:56,632 Speaker 4: beautiful women working in organized crime in Australia at that time. 88 00:04:56,832 --> 00:04:57,632 Speaker 2: What did she look like? 89 00:04:58,432 --> 00:04:58,872 Speaker 3: Stunning? 90 00:04:59,792 --> 00:05:02,712 Speaker 4: She was a real eyecatcher, which meant that in the 91 00:05:02,752 --> 00:05:05,512 Speaker 4: early days when she was involved in prostitution, she made 92 00:05:05,512 --> 00:05:07,072 Speaker 4: a lot of money from it because she had the 93 00:05:07,112 --> 00:05:10,232 Speaker 4: looks and she also had the services that she could provide. 94 00:05:10,472 --> 00:05:13,152 Speaker 4: She was a little under five foot five toll she 95 00:05:13,232 --> 00:05:18,192 Speaker 4: had depending on her mood, she usually had very blonde hair. 96 00:05:18,312 --> 00:05:20,672 Speaker 4: Sometimes she went brunette if she wanted to change her 97 00:05:20,712 --> 00:05:24,872 Speaker 4: identity slightly. She was described as having sort of sky blue, 98 00:05:24,912 --> 00:05:29,632 Speaker 4: slightly gray eyes, very red, gorgeous lips with red lipsticked 99 00:05:30,032 --> 00:05:34,232 Speaker 4: look to them, and just very soft complexion. She dressed 100 00:05:34,232 --> 00:05:36,791 Speaker 4: to stand out, so she wore dresses that would be 101 00:05:36,872 --> 00:05:40,552 Speaker 4: noticed an incredible beauty. If you didn't know anything else 102 00:05:40,592 --> 00:05:42,752 Speaker 4: about her, you might have mistaken her as a model. 103 00:05:43,112 --> 00:05:46,312 Speaker 2: Can you think of any modern equivalents like anyone sort 104 00:05:46,312 --> 00:05:49,872 Speaker 2: of in Australian culture that could capture us in the 105 00:05:49,912 --> 00:05:51,752 Speaker 2: same way today, I'm. 106 00:05:51,552 --> 00:05:54,312 Speaker 4: Not sure she's pretty unique in that way. I mean, 107 00:05:54,752 --> 00:05:58,032 Speaker 4: her whole story is quite unique for its time, but 108 00:05:58,112 --> 00:06:00,712 Speaker 4: through Austraine history, I don't know if there's anybody who 109 00:06:00,832 --> 00:06:02,872 Speaker 4: quite captures us the same. 110 00:06:03,072 --> 00:06:03,231 Speaker 5: You know. 111 00:06:03,232 --> 00:06:05,392 Speaker 4: I'm trying to think of people that spring to mind 112 00:06:05,512 --> 00:06:08,312 Speaker 4: amazing women and I'm not convinced that there is somebody 113 00:06:08,312 --> 00:06:09,272 Speaker 4: who is quite the same. 114 00:06:09,752 --> 00:06:13,232 Speaker 2: What do we know about her upbringing? So she was 115 00:06:13,352 --> 00:06:17,712 Speaker 2: born in the before nineteen twenty, wasn't she She was. 116 00:06:17,912 --> 00:06:20,712 Speaker 4: She was born just before World War One broke out, 117 00:06:21,232 --> 00:06:24,472 Speaker 4: born in February of nineteen fourteen, and she was living 118 00:06:24,592 --> 00:06:27,232 Speaker 4: at Waverley. She was born in Surrey Hills at the 119 00:06:27,232 --> 00:06:30,032 Speaker 4: Women's Hospital here, which was quite great in terms of 120 00:06:30,072 --> 00:06:32,952 Speaker 4: providing support and care for some of our most poorest 121 00:06:33,312 --> 00:06:36,032 Speaker 4: people in the city, and she moved out to Waverley 122 00:06:36,112 --> 00:06:39,432 Speaker 4: with her parents and a pretty nondescript upbringing in terms 123 00:06:39,472 --> 00:06:42,672 Speaker 4: of being a regular school kid. However, she's got an 124 00:06:42,712 --> 00:06:45,992 Speaker 4: interesting backstory that her mum actually had a criminal record, 125 00:06:46,432 --> 00:06:48,832 Speaker 4: but not of the same extent, not to the same 126 00:06:48,832 --> 00:06:51,592 Speaker 4: extent that Dulcie's became But the age of fifteen, she 127 00:06:51,672 --> 00:06:55,112 Speaker 4: runs away from home. We don't know entirely why. 128 00:06:55,192 --> 00:06:55,632 Speaker 3: We don't know. 129 00:06:55,752 --> 00:06:59,032 Speaker 4: She never commented on the exact circumstances, but it seems 130 00:06:59,072 --> 00:07:01,952 Speaker 4: to be that her parents' marriage broke up, her mother 131 00:07:02,032 --> 00:07:04,552 Speaker 4: had another daughter, and that daughter was born to a 132 00:07:04,552 --> 00:07:08,072 Speaker 4: different father. So there's a bit of dysfunctional family background 133 00:07:08,072 --> 00:07:10,512 Speaker 4: that's going on there. She runs away at the age 134 00:07:10,512 --> 00:07:13,112 Speaker 4: of fifteen and ends up on the streets of Willemloo 135 00:07:13,272 --> 00:07:15,392 Speaker 4: and creates a pretty interesting reputation. 136 00:07:15,472 --> 00:07:16,072 Speaker 3: From that point. 137 00:07:17,352 --> 00:07:20,032 Speaker 5: The world of business is no longer a man's world. 138 00:07:20,432 --> 00:07:23,272 Speaker 5: Throughout the nation, women hold a majority of office jobs. 139 00:07:23,872 --> 00:07:26,472 Speaker 5: In many bills, they are far more efficient than men. 140 00:07:26,832 --> 00:07:31,152 Speaker 5: In most they are indispensable. Without women today, the nation's 141 00:07:31,232 --> 00:07:34,112 Speaker 5: work would not be carried on. But the girl who 142 00:07:34,112 --> 00:07:36,312 Speaker 5: makes as much as twenty dollars a week is the exception, 143 00:07:36,752 --> 00:07:41,992 Speaker 5: not the rule. The average girl earns approximately fifteen dollars. 144 00:07:43,632 --> 00:07:46,472 Speaker 2: And so how does she make money when she's left 145 00:07:46,472 --> 00:07:48,912 Speaker 2: home and she's a young woman with no qualifications, who 146 00:07:48,952 --> 00:07:51,832 Speaker 2: hasn't finished her education. I mean, what are our options. 147 00:07:52,192 --> 00:07:53,952 Speaker 4: There's not a lot of options at the time, There's 148 00:07:53,952 --> 00:07:55,992 Speaker 4: not a lot of work that's even available to women. 149 00:07:56,072 --> 00:07:58,552 Speaker 4: You know, there's a growing number of factory jobs that 150 00:07:58,592 --> 00:08:02,272 Speaker 4: are available. Some women are starting to get some office work. 151 00:08:02,472 --> 00:08:04,552 Speaker 4: At the time you're looking at this being, you know, 152 00:08:04,672 --> 00:08:07,912 Speaker 4: nineteen twenty nine. To say that there were more opportunities 153 00:08:07,952 --> 00:08:10,592 Speaker 4: for women during and after the war, there's still that 154 00:08:10,632 --> 00:08:13,432 Speaker 4: pressure on them to basically be at home, get married, 155 00:08:13,472 --> 00:08:15,312 Speaker 4: have children, and that's a life that you create. 156 00:08:15,752 --> 00:08:17,072 Speaker 3: So she doesn't have a lot of options. 157 00:08:17,152 --> 00:08:20,512 Speaker 4: One of the most obvious options to her is that 158 00:08:20,552 --> 00:08:22,832 Speaker 4: she can actually get work on the streets of Willemloo 159 00:08:22,992 --> 00:08:26,512 Speaker 4: by becoming a street walker bug becoming a street prostitute. 160 00:08:26,952 --> 00:08:29,232 Speaker 2: Was that very illegal at a time. 161 00:08:30,592 --> 00:08:33,031 Speaker 4: The thing about street prostitution is there's an element of 162 00:08:33,072 --> 00:08:36,152 Speaker 4: where it was tolerated by the police officers. They would 163 00:08:36,151 --> 00:08:38,112 Speaker 4: basically whisk you off the streets and charge you with 164 00:08:38,192 --> 00:08:40,592 Speaker 4: idle and disorderly and the idea was that if you 165 00:08:40,832 --> 00:08:43,232 Speaker 4: had a number offenses and charges against you, you might 166 00:08:43,352 --> 00:08:45,312 Speaker 4: sort of change your ways, but a lot of the 167 00:08:45,352 --> 00:08:48,432 Speaker 4: women didn't. What the police officers would do, especially the 168 00:08:48,472 --> 00:08:51,312 Speaker 4: women police officers, is that they would try and encourage 169 00:08:51,352 --> 00:08:53,992 Speaker 4: the women working on the streets to get jobs and brothels, 170 00:08:54,432 --> 00:08:56,872 Speaker 4: because the idea was you had a bit more protection 171 00:08:57,032 --> 00:09:00,072 Speaker 4: in a brothel. The police could better sort of surveil 172 00:09:00,192 --> 00:09:02,832 Speaker 4: the area and go through the brothels and check on 173 00:09:03,632 --> 00:09:05,631 Speaker 4: the inside and what was going on. And there was 174 00:09:05,672 --> 00:09:07,672 Speaker 4: the idea that the brothel madams would look after you 175 00:09:07,672 --> 00:09:10,432 Speaker 4: a little bit better. But it's a heavily abusive system 176 00:09:10,432 --> 00:09:11,672 Speaker 4: that she's working in at the time. 177 00:09:12,072 --> 00:09:14,472 Speaker 2: So what's the difference if you're working on a street 178 00:09:14,912 --> 00:09:18,232 Speaker 2: as a sex worker, I mean, are you going? Is 179 00:09:18,232 --> 00:09:20,032 Speaker 2: someone coming and picking you up and then you're going 180 00:09:20,072 --> 00:09:22,032 Speaker 2: back with them as opposed to there being a sort 181 00:09:22,032 --> 00:09:22,632 Speaker 2: of residence. 182 00:09:23,992 --> 00:09:27,472 Speaker 4: It depends on how popular you were. So when there 183 00:09:27,632 --> 00:09:29,632 Speaker 4: was women who were working on the streets who weren't 184 00:09:29,632 --> 00:09:32,392 Speaker 4: as popular one as well known, they're probably they were 185 00:09:32,432 --> 00:09:34,712 Speaker 4: in a more dangerous situation. They could be used by 186 00:09:34,752 --> 00:09:37,312 Speaker 4: various numbers of men of blood users they would called 187 00:09:37,352 --> 00:09:39,792 Speaker 4: at the time, that would basically take most of the 188 00:09:39,832 --> 00:09:42,432 Speaker 4: proceeds of what they'd made and give them a sort 189 00:09:42,432 --> 00:09:45,552 Speaker 4: of cut of it. But somebody like Dulcy working on 190 00:09:45,592 --> 00:09:48,512 Speaker 4: the streets, what she faced on those streets is that 191 00:09:48,552 --> 00:09:50,952 Speaker 4: she could ply her trade, as she would often put it, 192 00:09:51,672 --> 00:09:53,792 Speaker 4: but she needed the protection of a mail as well, 193 00:09:53,872 --> 00:09:56,271 Speaker 4: somebody who could be nearby who could look at if 194 00:09:56,272 --> 00:09:59,152 Speaker 4: she was attacked or threatened or you know, whatever might come. 195 00:10:00,072 --> 00:10:02,152 Speaker 4: The difference with that if you're working on the streets 196 00:10:02,192 --> 00:10:05,632 Speaker 4: to working in a brothel is that there's less of 197 00:10:05,632 --> 00:10:08,432 Speaker 4: a case of you being attacked by a random individual. 198 00:10:08,952 --> 00:10:10,912 Speaker 4: So if you go to pay for sex on a brothel, 199 00:10:10,952 --> 00:10:13,272 Speaker 4: you've got to get past the brothel madam. You've got 200 00:10:13,312 --> 00:10:15,552 Speaker 4: the checks that go with that, and if you've already 201 00:10:15,552 --> 00:10:17,552 Speaker 4: got a reputation, the brothel madams won't let you in 202 00:10:17,592 --> 00:10:20,592 Speaker 4: the brothel. But on the streets you are more vulnerable 203 00:10:20,632 --> 00:10:23,151 Speaker 4: because there are any number of strangers who might try 204 00:10:23,312 --> 00:10:26,032 Speaker 4: and ask few services, and you've got no background information. 205 00:10:26,072 --> 00:10:26,992 Speaker 3: What's over for them. 206 00:10:27,712 --> 00:10:30,512 Speaker 2: Now this might be a silly question, but what was 207 00:10:30,592 --> 00:10:33,312 Speaker 2: the deal with contraception? So if you're a sex worker 208 00:10:33,352 --> 00:10:35,992 Speaker 2: at that time, what are you doing to protect yourself? 209 00:10:36,672 --> 00:10:38,872 Speaker 4: Well, the idea with contraception at the time is it 210 00:10:39,832 --> 00:10:42,472 Speaker 4: was particularly hard for the women working on the streets 211 00:10:42,992 --> 00:10:46,272 Speaker 4: because they didn't have the healthcare. 212 00:10:45,872 --> 00:10:47,192 Speaker 3: That went with working in a brothel. 213 00:10:47,472 --> 00:10:50,192 Speaker 4: The brothels as they were operating, I guess in the 214 00:10:50,272 --> 00:10:52,832 Speaker 4: nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties is that you actually had 215 00:10:53,192 --> 00:10:55,672 Speaker 4: health checks with the women, so the women went through 216 00:10:55,712 --> 00:10:58,392 Speaker 4: the process of getting themselves checked out. There was the 217 00:10:58,432 --> 00:11:02,192 Speaker 4: concerns about venereal diseases, so this assisted and looking after 218 00:11:02,232 --> 00:11:04,952 Speaker 4: the women and also the clients. But the women working 219 00:11:04,952 --> 00:11:07,432 Speaker 4: on the streets didn't have act to that as much. 220 00:11:07,792 --> 00:11:10,592 Speaker 4: So in terms of contraception, you really are trying to 221 00:11:10,632 --> 00:11:14,192 Speaker 4: work out your cycle, for example, So the women working 222 00:11:14,192 --> 00:11:16,631 Speaker 4: on the streets and in the brothels, because of the 223 00:11:16,712 --> 00:11:19,272 Speaker 4: nature of their work, they know their cycle. They know 224 00:11:19,352 --> 00:11:20,952 Speaker 4: when it's a good time and not a good time 225 00:11:20,992 --> 00:11:24,472 Speaker 4: and so on. But there's there's less, you know, access 226 00:11:24,512 --> 00:11:27,792 Speaker 4: to contraception, but it is still there and it was encouraged. 227 00:11:28,352 --> 00:11:30,592 Speaker 4: There are other methods, you know, kind of getting into 228 00:11:30,672 --> 00:11:33,952 Speaker 4: the prostitution history here, which is interesting, but there are 229 00:11:33,952 --> 00:11:37,872 Speaker 4: other ways in which women if they were trying to 230 00:11:37,912 --> 00:11:41,072 Speaker 4: prevent getting pregnant. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're actually 231 00:11:41,152 --> 00:11:43,392 Speaker 4: having sex with that client, that you could make the 232 00:11:43,392 --> 00:11:45,992 Speaker 4: client think that you are, but you use your thighs and. 233 00:11:45,992 --> 00:11:48,112 Speaker 3: A very interesting you've read about that before. 234 00:11:48,272 --> 00:11:50,631 Speaker 2: So you put your thighs together and there's a way 235 00:11:50,672 --> 00:11:52,511 Speaker 2: for them to think that you're having sex and you 236 00:11:52,632 --> 00:11:53,152 Speaker 2: just start. 237 00:11:53,112 --> 00:11:54,432 Speaker 3: Soft and fleshy and almost good. 238 00:11:54,472 --> 00:11:54,712 Speaker 5: Bass. 239 00:11:55,112 --> 00:12:00,112 Speaker 2: I cannot believe that someone could be that like stupid. 240 00:12:00,672 --> 00:12:03,792 Speaker 4: It's also there's some of the clients are coming out 241 00:12:03,792 --> 00:12:05,112 Speaker 4: of pubs and they've had a few drinks. 242 00:12:05,232 --> 00:12:08,112 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so they're trying. They're not in the best 243 00:12:08,112 --> 00:12:11,632 Speaker 3: state anyway. The women. The stories I've listened to, this. 244 00:12:11,512 --> 00:12:14,232 Speaker 4: Isn't just historic, this is also recent stories as well 245 00:12:14,312 --> 00:12:18,752 Speaker 4: of how women have managed to work their cycle. 246 00:12:18,832 --> 00:12:19,792 Speaker 3: They've also tried to. 247 00:12:19,752 --> 00:12:23,712 Speaker 4: Work ways in terms of not using contraceptives in those days. 248 00:12:23,712 --> 00:12:25,832 Speaker 4: But of course these days it's a bit different because 249 00:12:26,752 --> 00:12:30,271 Speaker 4: there's great awareness, there's greater welfare for women, and you've 250 00:12:30,272 --> 00:12:33,872 Speaker 4: also got a selection of methods in which you want 251 00:12:33,872 --> 00:12:35,912 Speaker 4: to prevent yourself from getting pregnant. 252 00:12:35,912 --> 00:12:37,152 Speaker 3: But it's not that it didn't happen. 253 00:12:37,232 --> 00:12:41,352 Speaker 4: Some of the sex workers became pregnant, and certainly Dulcy 254 00:12:41,432 --> 00:12:43,752 Speaker 4: did too. So there was the option of some of 255 00:12:43,792 --> 00:12:47,152 Speaker 4: the women kept their children and they had other workers 256 00:12:47,192 --> 00:12:50,792 Speaker 4: who looked after them with them, or there was neighbors 257 00:12:50,792 --> 00:12:52,912 Speaker 4: and other people rowned Surrey Hills and wool and alone, 258 00:12:52,992 --> 00:12:55,552 Speaker 4: those kind of places. There was a lot of community 259 00:12:55,592 --> 00:12:59,432 Speaker 4: acceptance of women in prostitution and help that was offered 260 00:12:59,552 --> 00:13:01,872 Speaker 4: to the women if they had children. But the other 261 00:13:01,912 --> 00:13:04,912 Speaker 4: options that are there obviously would be adopting the children out, 262 00:13:05,392 --> 00:13:07,712 Speaker 4: giving the children away and that sort of thing. 263 00:13:08,472 --> 00:13:13,712 Speaker 2: And Dulcie had quite an interesting relationship with men throughout 264 00:13:13,752 --> 00:13:16,672 Speaker 2: her life. And you know, as you say, she was 265 00:13:16,672 --> 00:13:20,312 Speaker 2: so beautiful and working in sex work that she came 266 00:13:20,312 --> 00:13:25,032 Speaker 2: across particular types of men. What was that first relationship, like, 267 00:13:25,112 --> 00:13:27,032 Speaker 2: I think it was around sixteen or something. 268 00:13:27,312 --> 00:13:32,032 Speaker 4: Yeah, she met young Scotty McCormack in Willemloo, and Scotty 269 00:13:32,072 --> 00:13:34,632 Speaker 4: had already been a young offender. He'd been sent off 270 00:13:34,672 --> 00:13:37,672 Speaker 4: to Gosford Home for Boys along with Choe Hayes and 271 00:13:37,712 --> 00:13:40,032 Speaker 4: other young kids that were there who became very well 272 00:13:40,072 --> 00:13:43,872 Speaker 4: known criminals in Sydney. And she met Scotty and there 273 00:13:43,952 --> 00:13:47,592 Speaker 4: was an understanding that they formed a very close relationship 274 00:13:47,592 --> 00:13:49,472 Speaker 4: and I think they were in love. I don't want 275 00:13:49,512 --> 00:13:51,112 Speaker 4: to get too cynical about these things. I think they 276 00:13:51,152 --> 00:13:53,712 Speaker 4: were in love. But there was also a very interesting 277 00:13:53,792 --> 00:13:56,552 Speaker 4: working relationship where he could make money out of her 278 00:13:56,552 --> 00:14:00,792 Speaker 4: prostitution as well, and he was known as a local thief. 279 00:14:00,992 --> 00:14:02,472 Speaker 4: He was a kind of person that you went to 280 00:14:02,552 --> 00:14:05,391 Speaker 4: if you wanted to get some knockoff stolen goods and 281 00:14:05,392 --> 00:14:07,192 Speaker 4: sell them on for all. He was the guy that 282 00:14:07,232 --> 00:14:10,032 Speaker 4: you went to. He was also running with a number 283 00:14:10,072 --> 00:14:12,552 Speaker 4: of the gangs at the time. So by the age 284 00:14:12,592 --> 00:14:16,391 Speaker 4: of fifteen sixteen when she meets Scotty McCormack, she's already 285 00:14:16,432 --> 00:14:19,832 Speaker 4: now becoming involved with somebody who has gang links, and 286 00:14:19,872 --> 00:14:22,712 Speaker 4: from those gang links, his link to organized crime and 287 00:14:22,752 --> 00:14:24,872 Speaker 4: it's rise in the late nineteen twenties. 288 00:14:40,952 --> 00:14:43,672 Speaker 2: And so they're sort of seeing each other for a 289 00:14:43,672 --> 00:14:45,912 Speaker 2: while and then something awful happens to him, doesn't it. 290 00:14:46,472 --> 00:14:47,832 Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, he goes away. 291 00:14:47,872 --> 00:14:51,032 Speaker 4: He's charged with a number offenses and he goes away 292 00:14:51,032 --> 00:14:54,232 Speaker 4: to prison. While he's in prison, another young man by 293 00:14:54,272 --> 00:14:57,872 Speaker 4: the name of Alfred Dylan. His mum runs a brothel 294 00:14:58,472 --> 00:15:01,872 Speaker 4: in Haymarket and Delcy's one of her workers. He falls 295 00:15:01,872 --> 00:15:04,952 Speaker 4: in love with Dlcy and while Scotty's away in prison, 296 00:15:04,992 --> 00:15:07,352 Speaker 4: he sees this as an opportunity that Dlcy can become 297 00:15:07,392 --> 00:15:10,792 Speaker 4: his girl. Scotty gets out of prison and as it 298 00:15:10,872 --> 00:15:12,992 Speaker 4: was put at the time, he went and reclaimed his property. 299 00:15:12,992 --> 00:15:15,832 Speaker 4: Because women were property at the time, particularly sex workers. 300 00:15:16,352 --> 00:15:18,952 Speaker 4: And Scotty takes up again with Dulcie, and the story 301 00:15:19,032 --> 00:15:21,712 Speaker 4: is that Alfred wasn't happy about this. There's another side 302 00:15:21,752 --> 00:15:24,472 Speaker 4: of the story too, that Scotty was also putting a 303 00:15:24,472 --> 00:15:26,792 Speaker 4: lot of people offside, that he was doing dodgy deals 304 00:15:26,792 --> 00:15:29,312 Speaker 4: and he was doing other people out of money. When 305 00:15:29,312 --> 00:15:32,392 Speaker 4: they're walking along, Dulcy and Scotty are walking along in 306 00:15:32,472 --> 00:15:36,352 Speaker 4: May nineteen thirty one along William Street and Dlcy kisses 307 00:15:36,432 --> 00:15:38,312 Speaker 4: him good night. She's off to the movies, off to 308 00:15:38,312 --> 00:15:43,192 Speaker 4: see after the flicks. In King's Cross, you've got Scotty 309 00:15:43,232 --> 00:15:45,152 Speaker 4: walking along the road with a mate as well, and 310 00:15:45,232 --> 00:15:47,232 Speaker 4: another two young men approach him, one of whom is 311 00:15:47,232 --> 00:15:51,552 Speaker 4: Alfred Dylan. There's a bit of a scuffle and Scotty's 312 00:15:51,552 --> 00:15:54,712 Speaker 4: pushed against a shop door and the glass breaks and 313 00:15:54,752 --> 00:15:57,632 Speaker 4: the other two guys they run off as Scotty's in 314 00:15:57,672 --> 00:15:59,872 Speaker 4: a lot of pain and his friend gets him into 315 00:15:59,952 --> 00:16:01,472 Speaker 4: a car to get him off to the hospital. Well, 316 00:16:01,512 --> 00:16:04,512 Speaker 4: as it turns out he's actually been stabbed with a 317 00:16:04,552 --> 00:16:07,392 Speaker 4: stiletto described at the time, but it was quite a 318 00:16:07,432 --> 00:16:09,712 Speaker 4: long stiletto and he's been stabbed through the heart. He's 319 00:16:09,712 --> 00:16:13,152 Speaker 4: got punctured lungs, he's got horrific wounds. He's screaming in 320 00:16:13,192 --> 00:16:15,632 Speaker 4: pain in the car, gets to Saint Vincent's. 321 00:16:15,792 --> 00:16:17,272 Speaker 3: A friend runs. 322 00:16:16,992 --> 00:16:19,512 Speaker 4: Off to tell Dulcie at the movie theater that Scotty's 323 00:16:19,512 --> 00:16:22,352 Speaker 4: been attacked, and when she arrives at the hospital, she's 324 00:16:22,352 --> 00:16:25,232 Speaker 4: told that he's passed away and she has to identify 325 00:16:25,232 --> 00:16:26,431 Speaker 4: his body in the morgue. 326 00:16:26,552 --> 00:16:28,232 Speaker 3: She's seventeen. That's the thing. 327 00:16:28,392 --> 00:16:30,752 Speaker 4: As a seventeen year old, she has to see his 328 00:16:30,832 --> 00:16:33,312 Speaker 4: body in the morgue to know the experience of what 329 00:16:33,392 --> 00:16:37,072 Speaker 4: he went through. And then suddenly she's one of the 330 00:16:37,152 --> 00:16:39,072 Speaker 4: most important people that the police want to talk to. 331 00:16:39,192 --> 00:16:41,112 Speaker 4: They want to figure out how on earth has happened, 332 00:16:41,592 --> 00:16:43,352 Speaker 4: And so she doesn't want to talk to the police, 333 00:16:43,392 --> 00:16:44,352 Speaker 4: and she goes into hiding. 334 00:16:45,032 --> 00:16:47,032 Speaker 2: So why doesn't she want to talk to them, because 335 00:16:47,552 --> 00:16:49,632 Speaker 2: I understand that there's those gang links. But then at 336 00:16:49,632 --> 00:16:51,912 Speaker 2: the same time, someone that she's loved has been murdered. 337 00:16:51,952 --> 00:16:54,432 Speaker 2: Does she have no desire for justice? 338 00:16:55,312 --> 00:16:57,672 Speaker 4: Dulci had to desire for her own kind of justice. 339 00:16:57,872 --> 00:16:59,952 Speaker 4: And that's what happens in the underworld's at the time, 340 00:17:00,432 --> 00:17:02,872 Speaker 4: you take care of business on the inside, you don't 341 00:17:02,952 --> 00:17:06,711 Speaker 4: want to involve the police, the underworld kind of islands 342 00:17:06,752 --> 00:17:10,552 Speaker 4: kind of keeps that together. She was upset by Scotty's death. 343 00:17:10,591 --> 00:17:13,232 Speaker 4: Obviously she's pretty distraught by it. She makes an appearance 344 00:17:13,232 --> 00:17:17,272 Speaker 4: at the inquest under the alias of Mary Eugene, and 345 00:17:17,351 --> 00:17:20,431 Speaker 4: she dresses in this really dramatic blood red dress to 346 00:17:20,512 --> 00:17:22,751 Speaker 4: show that she's upset. And she's also this kind of 347 00:17:22,792 --> 00:17:26,111 Speaker 4: performer she was at inquests and at courtroom dealings. 348 00:17:27,391 --> 00:17:28,112 Speaker 3: The manner in. 349 00:17:28,111 --> 00:17:32,151 Speaker 4: Which she keeps quiet really shows us that there's a 350 00:17:32,192 --> 00:17:34,831 Speaker 4: couple of things going on here. She can find other 351 00:17:34,871 --> 00:17:38,912 Speaker 4: ways in which to seek revenge. The other key thing 352 00:17:39,391 --> 00:17:43,272 Speaker 4: is that by not talking, she's protecting herself because you've 353 00:17:43,272 --> 00:17:45,352 Speaker 4: got to remember that there are those who were involved 354 00:17:45,351 --> 00:17:49,191 Speaker 4: in implicated in the killing of Scotty McCormack. It's not 355 00:17:49,311 --> 00:17:52,191 Speaker 4: just Alfred who committed the crime, it's the gang members 356 00:17:52,192 --> 00:17:55,712 Speaker 4: who also associate with him. So she very carefully has 357 00:17:55,712 --> 00:17:58,352 Speaker 4: to maneuver that kind of underworld violence. 358 00:17:58,391 --> 00:18:00,591 Speaker 2: And what are the other ways that are available to 359 00:18:00,671 --> 00:18:01,951 Speaker 2: her to seek revenge. 360 00:18:02,911 --> 00:18:04,871 Speaker 4: Well, at that time, she's trying to figure it out. 361 00:18:04,952 --> 00:18:07,591 Speaker 4: At seventeen, she's very new to the underworld, so she's 362 00:18:07,752 --> 00:18:11,671 Speaker 4: carefully maneuvering around those relationships. As it comes to light 363 00:18:11,752 --> 00:18:13,911 Speaker 4: later on in her career. What she could do is 364 00:18:13,911 --> 00:18:16,912 Speaker 4: that she could call upon gang members, organized crime figures 365 00:18:16,952 --> 00:18:20,511 Speaker 4: who could quietly take care of business without bringing the police. 366 00:18:20,552 --> 00:18:24,271 Speaker 4: That you then seek revenge by stabbing or killing, stabbing 367 00:18:24,351 --> 00:18:27,031 Speaker 4: or shooting, I should say, rival gang members. 368 00:18:27,512 --> 00:18:30,871 Speaker 2: And would she do that sort of thing herself or 369 00:18:30,871 --> 00:18:32,912 Speaker 2: would she have people that would do that for her? 370 00:18:33,071 --> 00:18:33,232 Speaker 5: Oh? 371 00:18:33,272 --> 00:18:35,831 Speaker 4: No, Delsey said she never handled a gun, never handled 372 00:18:35,831 --> 00:18:39,672 Speaker 4: a gun, never took sought revenge on anyone. We kind 373 00:18:39,671 --> 00:18:41,431 Speaker 4: of know that she was involved in a lot of 374 00:18:41,472 --> 00:18:44,632 Speaker 4: the thinking around and planning of the attacks that took 375 00:18:44,671 --> 00:18:49,152 Speaker 4: place in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. She was pretty annoyed 376 00:18:49,151 --> 00:18:52,392 Speaker 4: that she was depicted as a gangster's mall at the time. 377 00:18:52,431 --> 00:18:56,151 Speaker 4: That's how the reporters referred to her. We don't have 378 00:18:56,192 --> 00:18:58,871 Speaker 4: anything to definitely say that she took matters into her 379 00:18:58,952 --> 00:19:02,431 Speaker 4: own hands, but she certainly was at one point accused 380 00:19:02,472 --> 00:19:05,392 Speaker 4: of attempted murti. The person wasn't actually killed, but there 381 00:19:05,391 --> 00:19:08,472 Speaker 4: was a thread on their lives at the time. And 382 00:19:08,831 --> 00:19:11,071 Speaker 4: so there's an interesting situation that she's in. 383 00:19:11,911 --> 00:19:13,991 Speaker 2: And so she's gone from working on the street to 384 00:19:14,032 --> 00:19:16,672 Speaker 2: then having someone look after her and I would imagine 385 00:19:16,712 --> 00:19:19,471 Speaker 2: taking a portion of the money she makes to then 386 00:19:19,512 --> 00:19:23,472 Speaker 2: working in a brothel. What's she doing next after she's 387 00:19:23,591 --> 00:19:25,871 Speaker 2: lost this first partner, where does she go next? 388 00:19:26,232 --> 00:19:26,912 Speaker 3: Well, she has this. 389 00:19:26,911 --> 00:19:30,872 Speaker 4: Really interesting career where when things get too hot in Sydney, 390 00:19:30,911 --> 00:19:32,111 Speaker 4: she takes off to Melbourne. 391 00:19:32,472 --> 00:19:33,672 Speaker 3: So she heads to Melbourne. 392 00:19:33,671 --> 00:19:37,431 Speaker 4: She establishes a bit of a reputation around Fitzroy and 393 00:19:37,431 --> 00:19:39,831 Speaker 4: then Sint Kilda. She's very well known in Sint Kilda 394 00:19:39,871 --> 00:19:42,912 Speaker 4: around Folkner Street, and when things get hot in Melbourne, 395 00:19:42,952 --> 00:19:46,351 Speaker 4: she takes off to Brisbane. So she works herself around 396 00:19:46,351 --> 00:19:49,751 Speaker 4: these three cities. And while she's doing that, she's not 397 00:19:49,792 --> 00:19:52,952 Speaker 4: only working in prostitution. She's also setting up sly grog 398 00:19:53,032 --> 00:19:56,551 Speaker 4: shops and they were known for selling knockoff booze. So 399 00:19:56,671 --> 00:19:59,751 Speaker 4: when the pubs closed at six pm, for example, you 400 00:19:59,752 --> 00:20:02,272 Speaker 4: could get knockoff booze at somebody's house that was known 401 00:20:02,272 --> 00:20:03,991 Speaker 4: as a sly grog shop. So you go there and 402 00:20:04,032 --> 00:20:06,951 Speaker 4: you get beer after aras, but you probably paid at 403 00:20:07,032 --> 00:20:10,432 Speaker 4: least twice the price. So she's involved in prostitution, selling 404 00:20:10,472 --> 00:20:13,151 Speaker 4: off knockoff booze, and she then got involved in the 405 00:20:13,151 --> 00:20:16,392 Speaker 4: world of gambling as well. Very interesting career because she's 406 00:20:16,472 --> 00:20:19,272 Speaker 4: dabbling in a few of the main stays of organized 407 00:20:19,311 --> 00:20:26,232 Speaker 4: crime at the time. 408 00:20:28,992 --> 00:20:31,512 Speaker 2: Did she make good money from all of those things? 409 00:20:32,032 --> 00:20:33,071 Speaker 3: She did make good money. 410 00:20:33,151 --> 00:20:34,951 Speaker 4: She made good money because you can tell that she 411 00:20:35,552 --> 00:20:38,792 Speaker 4: wore really nice clothes, she had jewelry, she had the 412 00:20:38,871 --> 00:20:40,752 Speaker 4: money to get her hair done, she had the money 413 00:20:40,752 --> 00:20:42,792 Speaker 4: to buy makeup. These things are not available to a 414 00:20:42,831 --> 00:20:45,831 Speaker 4: lot of women at the time who don't have enough money. 415 00:20:45,871 --> 00:20:47,591 Speaker 4: So she did make a fair amount of money. But 416 00:20:47,631 --> 00:20:50,831 Speaker 4: the difficulty here is it's still the case as you 417 00:20:50,871 --> 00:20:54,232 Speaker 4: said there before, you can make money through sex work, 418 00:20:54,472 --> 00:20:56,391 Speaker 4: but there are always other people that are taking a 419 00:20:56,391 --> 00:20:58,751 Speaker 4: portion of it, so you never entirely make all the 420 00:20:58,752 --> 00:21:00,192 Speaker 4: money that you should get from the. 421 00:21:00,151 --> 00:21:01,351 Speaker 3: Service as you've provided. 422 00:21:01,431 --> 00:21:03,792 Speaker 4: So she always got a cut in the money, and 423 00:21:03,831 --> 00:21:08,512 Speaker 4: there were always those other organized crime figures who took 424 00:21:08,631 --> 00:21:10,071 Speaker 4: their portion of her earnings. 425 00:21:10,712 --> 00:21:12,591 Speaker 2: And do you think that the male figures that she 426 00:21:12,712 --> 00:21:15,111 Speaker 2: spent time with, because there were a lot of sort 427 00:21:15,151 --> 00:21:18,351 Speaker 2: of different men that she had relationships with, do you 428 00:21:18,431 --> 00:21:22,471 Speaker 2: think that that was a dependence necessity thing, or do 429 00:21:22,552 --> 00:21:25,632 Speaker 2: you think that she really did fall in love with them. 430 00:21:26,071 --> 00:21:29,191 Speaker 4: It's a mixed bag really depends on the individuals. So 431 00:21:29,792 --> 00:21:32,911 Speaker 4: I think that there's an element certainly of protection. If 432 00:21:32,952 --> 00:21:35,392 Speaker 4: you're going to be smart in working in an organized 433 00:21:35,391 --> 00:21:37,912 Speaker 4: crime you do need protection. And women at the time 434 00:21:38,032 --> 00:21:40,551 Speaker 4: needed protection. They absolutely did. Kate Lee, who was an 435 00:21:40,952 --> 00:21:44,792 Speaker 4: organized crime figure, organized crime leader here in Sydney, she 436 00:21:44,992 --> 00:21:47,392 Speaker 4: even needed protection. So she had her stand over men 437 00:21:47,391 --> 00:21:49,631 Speaker 4: who looked after her, and she was a tough old chick, 438 00:21:49,671 --> 00:21:53,472 Speaker 4: you know, she was really, really, really tough. Dulcie needed 439 00:21:53,512 --> 00:21:57,751 Speaker 4: protection because she knew the kind of violence that she 440 00:21:57,792 --> 00:21:59,871 Speaker 4: could face in terms of if she chose the wrong 441 00:21:59,871 --> 00:22:04,111 Speaker 4: association then there could be repercussions from that. But it's 442 00:22:04,111 --> 00:22:07,911 Speaker 4: not just about protection. There's cases where she has fallen 443 00:22:07,911 --> 00:22:10,231 Speaker 4: in love with people. This is her normal life, you know, 444 00:22:10,311 --> 00:22:13,272 Speaker 4: it becomes normalized, this life of crime and living with 445 00:22:13,351 --> 00:22:16,272 Speaker 4: underworld figures, and she certainly does fall in love with them. 446 00:22:16,591 --> 00:22:18,472 Speaker 4: But I think there were also the men that took 447 00:22:18,512 --> 00:22:21,272 Speaker 4: from her what they could and as women's experiences have 448 00:22:21,311 --> 00:22:23,191 Speaker 4: been like that for what centuries. 449 00:22:23,512 --> 00:22:27,111 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's a point sort of just after she 450 00:22:27,151 --> 00:22:30,472 Speaker 2: turns twenty one, I think where she spends some time, 451 00:22:30,631 --> 00:22:34,511 Speaker 2: a relatively small amount of time in our Long Bay prison. 452 00:22:35,111 --> 00:22:38,071 Speaker 2: What was that for? What eventually landed her in prison. 453 00:22:38,831 --> 00:22:43,272 Speaker 4: She was told repeatedly to stop working selling sex around 454 00:22:43,272 --> 00:22:45,591 Speaker 4: Willemloo and King's Cross, and she was told by the 455 00:22:45,631 --> 00:22:48,512 Speaker 4: magistrates that you need to give this up for six months. 456 00:22:48,552 --> 00:22:50,631 Speaker 4: We need you to not be on the streets and 457 00:22:50,631 --> 00:22:53,032 Speaker 4: we need you not be associating in the brothels. And 458 00:22:53,111 --> 00:22:55,071 Speaker 4: of course she didn't listen because she needed the money 459 00:22:55,111 --> 00:22:58,231 Speaker 4: and there were already those associations that are established. But 460 00:22:58,311 --> 00:23:00,591 Speaker 4: she sent off to Long Bay. There's a lot of 461 00:23:00,591 --> 00:23:03,032 Speaker 4: other women in a similar situation. We're sent off for 462 00:23:03,151 --> 00:23:06,831 Speaker 4: idland sordly or consorting with other criminals. The new southwell 463 00:23:06,831 --> 00:23:08,792 Speaker 4: As police did at the time is that they managed 464 00:23:08,831 --> 00:23:11,952 Speaker 4: to break up some of the criminal associations by introducing 465 00:23:12,032 --> 00:23:15,591 Speaker 4: these consorting laws, which meant that, for example, if Dulcy 466 00:23:15,712 --> 00:23:17,751 Speaker 4: is walking down the street with Nellie Cameron, who was 467 00:23:17,752 --> 00:23:20,831 Speaker 4: another well known prostitute, the two of them could be 468 00:23:20,871 --> 00:23:23,431 Speaker 4: done for consorting and they faced six months in prison 469 00:23:23,512 --> 00:23:27,792 Speaker 4: for it. This offense that she commits is tied to 470 00:23:27,831 --> 00:23:30,152 Speaker 4: that a little bit, but it's more the idland disorderly, 471 00:23:30,232 --> 00:23:32,351 Speaker 4: get you off the streets, put you in prison, and 472 00:23:32,351 --> 00:23:34,512 Speaker 4: then the police have one less person to worry about 473 00:23:34,552 --> 00:23:35,192 Speaker 4: on the streets. 474 00:23:36,631 --> 00:23:40,792 Speaker 2: Back to her relationship, so she goes from Scott to 475 00:23:40,911 --> 00:23:45,511 Speaker 2: then I've got like Frank Bowen, Arthur Taplan, I'm not 476 00:23:45,512 --> 00:23:49,472 Speaker 2: going to be able to pronounce this. Gudo Colletti, Guido Collettio, 477 00:23:49,631 --> 00:23:53,311 Speaker 2: Guido Colletti. He was a particularly interesting one. Now she 478 00:23:53,552 --> 00:23:55,831 Speaker 2: has I would call it a series of bad luck, 479 00:23:55,831 --> 00:23:57,871 Speaker 2: but I suppose it's not really bad luck because it 480 00:23:58,032 --> 00:24:01,191 Speaker 2: was organized crime, so you know, things aren't going to 481 00:24:01,232 --> 00:24:04,992 Speaker 2: go so well all the time. But these men, there's 482 00:24:05,032 --> 00:24:08,991 Speaker 2: these terrible fates that before them. How much is she 483 00:24:09,151 --> 00:24:12,511 Speaker 2: responsible and how much is it just sort of the 484 00:24:12,552 --> 00:24:14,871 Speaker 2: culture that she happens to be existing in. 485 00:24:15,272 --> 00:24:17,831 Speaker 4: That's the question, isn't it. Because the press sensational lies 486 00:24:17,871 --> 00:24:20,351 Speaker 4: her as the angel of death. But as you say, 487 00:24:20,431 --> 00:24:23,071 Speaker 4: she's involved with organized crime, you know there's going to 488 00:24:23,071 --> 00:24:25,631 Speaker 4: be cases where there are killings that take place. That's 489 00:24:25,631 --> 00:24:27,992 Speaker 4: the nature of organized crime. Rivalry comes out in a 490 00:24:28,151 --> 00:24:28,952 Speaker 4: very violent way. 491 00:24:29,232 --> 00:24:31,671 Speaker 2: And the term the black widow, which they referred to her, 492 00:24:31,752 --> 00:24:34,552 Speaker 2: was almost as though it was putting blame on her 493 00:24:34,831 --> 00:24:37,272 Speaker 2: for the fact that these men were dying, which I 494 00:24:37,272 --> 00:24:37,991 Speaker 2: thought was interesting. 495 00:24:38,071 --> 00:24:40,751 Speaker 4: Well, it's the old characterization the fem fatale. You know, 496 00:24:40,792 --> 00:24:43,152 Speaker 4: if you can account for a fem fatale, then it's 497 00:24:43,272 --> 00:24:45,751 Speaker 4: a woman's problem rather than what's actually going on in 498 00:24:45,752 --> 00:24:46,471 Speaker 4: the male world. 499 00:24:46,831 --> 00:24:48,951 Speaker 3: And so she suffered a little bit from that. 500 00:24:49,032 --> 00:24:50,471 Speaker 4: I mean, if you kind of think of it, she 501 00:24:50,552 --> 00:24:52,791 Speaker 4: was a bit of a fem fatie. But this idea 502 00:24:52,831 --> 00:24:55,831 Speaker 4: of her being the angel of death. Look, she's there 503 00:24:55,871 --> 00:24:59,631 Speaker 4: when a number of lovers take their last breath. Guido 504 00:24:59,752 --> 00:25:02,591 Speaker 4: Kletti in nineteen thirty nine is dying in her arms 505 00:25:02,631 --> 00:25:05,911 Speaker 4: in the house in brom Street in the Low And 506 00:25:05,952 --> 00:25:09,871 Speaker 4: it's interesting that the press then feeds into that she's 507 00:25:09,911 --> 00:25:11,792 Speaker 4: the angel of death. There's these men who are dying 508 00:25:11,831 --> 00:25:15,591 Speaker 4: around her. I guess a reality too if you look 509 00:25:15,631 --> 00:25:17,712 Speaker 4: at that in terms of these men who are dying 510 00:25:17,752 --> 00:25:20,351 Speaker 4: in our arms. We don't have any other comparison really, 511 00:25:20,671 --> 00:25:23,071 Speaker 4: because she's about the only woman, if not the only 512 00:25:23,111 --> 00:25:25,712 Speaker 4: woman at the time who does lose that many lovers, 513 00:25:26,591 --> 00:25:30,472 Speaker 4: husband's boyfriends. So she stands out in that respect because 514 00:25:30,472 --> 00:25:32,752 Speaker 4: the press don't have another woman to go to to say, well, 515 00:25:32,831 --> 00:25:35,711 Speaker 4: Dulcie said, these lovers who've died, you know, either in 516 00:25:35,752 --> 00:25:37,871 Speaker 4: her arms or she's known them or know it's been 517 00:25:37,911 --> 00:25:40,232 Speaker 4: another city when they were killed. There's not another woman 518 00:25:40,272 --> 00:25:43,071 Speaker 4: to go to to make that comparison. So it was 519 00:25:43,111 --> 00:25:44,512 Speaker 4: based in some fact as well. 520 00:25:44,871 --> 00:25:47,751 Speaker 2: Can you tell us what exactly happened to Guido, what 521 00:25:47,871 --> 00:25:48,952 Speaker 2: sort of led to his death? 522 00:25:49,351 --> 00:25:52,472 Speaker 4: Well, Guido's death came probably close to a decade after 523 00:25:52,512 --> 00:25:54,671 Speaker 4: it should have initially happened, because he was at the 524 00:25:54,712 --> 00:25:57,552 Speaker 4: center of the Razor Wars in Sydney from nineteen twenty 525 00:25:57,552 --> 00:25:59,431 Speaker 4: seven to nineteen thirty one. 526 00:25:59,512 --> 00:26:02,031 Speaker 3: He was a well known gangster. 527 00:26:02,151 --> 00:26:03,871 Speaker 4: He liked to kind of think of himself a little 528 00:26:03,871 --> 00:26:06,831 Speaker 4: bit as like an al Capone of Sydney, but a 529 00:26:06,911 --> 00:26:07,831 Speaker 4: very different reputation. 530 00:26:07,992 --> 00:26:10,511 Speaker 2: When you say the Razor Wars, what were the Razor Wars? 531 00:26:10,631 --> 00:26:13,311 Speaker 4: So the Razor Wars in Sydney were an example of 532 00:26:13,351 --> 00:26:16,152 Speaker 4: some of the most violent years in Australian crime history. 533 00:26:16,552 --> 00:26:19,272 Speaker 4: What you essentially have is that the police are trying 534 00:26:19,311 --> 00:26:21,751 Speaker 4: to break up these gangs. They're trying to break up 535 00:26:21,792 --> 00:26:26,232 Speaker 4: the rise of organized crime. There's gun violence, there's shootings, 536 00:26:26,311 --> 00:26:28,992 Speaker 4: there's open brawls that take place in the streets of 537 00:26:29,071 --> 00:26:33,751 Speaker 4: Eastern Sydney. So the police introduce Pistol Licensing Act laws 538 00:26:33,952 --> 00:26:36,952 Speaker 4: basically says that you need to actually carry with you 539 00:26:37,952 --> 00:26:40,631 Speaker 4: the permission to have a gun, that have a revolver, 540 00:26:41,391 --> 00:26:44,591 Speaker 4: and it's their way of trying to stamp out violent crime. 541 00:26:45,032 --> 00:26:47,071 Speaker 4: The thing is is that the underworld cooks are smart, 542 00:26:47,151 --> 00:26:49,272 Speaker 4: so they figure out, well, I can't carry a gun 543 00:26:49,391 --> 00:26:52,112 Speaker 4: or carry a razor, and a raiser is actually a. 544 00:26:52,032 --> 00:26:54,151 Speaker 3: Lot easier to conceal from the police. 545 00:26:54,552 --> 00:26:56,191 Speaker 4: And if the police find a razor on you, you 546 00:26:56,192 --> 00:26:58,151 Speaker 4: can turn around and say, well, I've been using it 547 00:26:58,192 --> 00:26:58,631 Speaker 4: to shave. 548 00:26:59,111 --> 00:27:01,911 Speaker 2: Isn't that a much more brutal way to kill something? 549 00:27:01,952 --> 00:27:03,992 Speaker 3: It's a much more personal way. Yes, definitely. 550 00:27:04,151 --> 00:27:09,151 Speaker 4: Nice violence is horrific way in which to be attacked 551 00:27:09,391 --> 00:27:12,951 Speaker 4: or to suffer to be murtored, if you will, because 552 00:27:12,952 --> 00:27:15,992 Speaker 4: it's very intimate, it's very close. The same has happened 553 00:27:16,032 --> 00:27:19,712 Speaker 4: to Scotty, you know, he takes that that stiletto through 554 00:27:19,752 --> 00:27:22,231 Speaker 4: the heart like that's immediate, that's right at you. The 555 00:27:22,591 --> 00:27:24,552 Speaker 4: gun gives a bit of distance, so you at a 556 00:27:24,591 --> 00:27:28,311 Speaker 4: distance from the person to take your aim. So the police, 557 00:27:28,351 --> 00:27:31,392 Speaker 4: in trying to deal with gun violence, created another avenue 558 00:27:31,431 --> 00:27:32,472 Speaker 4: for extreme violence. 559 00:27:32,512 --> 00:27:34,111 Speaker 3: And the razors we used. 560 00:27:34,311 --> 00:27:36,792 Speaker 2: And so what happened to Guido. 561 00:27:36,831 --> 00:27:39,191 Speaker 3: So Guido he survives the rais of Wars. 562 00:27:39,671 --> 00:27:46,711 Speaker 4: He basically is trying to manipulate this ongoing control of 563 00:27:46,792 --> 00:27:49,431 Speaker 4: crime and Sydney from a lower level because at the 564 00:27:49,431 --> 00:27:51,911 Speaker 4: time Katelyn and Tillie Divino is still running the show, 565 00:27:52,552 --> 00:27:55,672 Speaker 4: and he puts a lot of rival gang members offside. 566 00:27:55,911 --> 00:27:59,192 Speaker 4: Through the nineteen thirties, he marries Nellie Cameron, another known prostitute, 567 00:27:59,272 --> 00:28:03,112 Speaker 4: very popular prostitute. He marries Nellie, but their marriage breaks up. 568 00:28:03,472 --> 00:28:05,871 Speaker 4: He then, by about the middle of the nineteen thirties, 569 00:28:05,911 --> 00:28:09,311 Speaker 4: becomes one of Dulcie's lovers. He had known Dulcie when 570 00:28:09,351 --> 00:28:11,951 Speaker 4: she was with Scotti McCormack because he was friends with Scotty, 571 00:28:12,272 --> 00:28:15,032 Speaker 4: so she's had an earlier association with him. And then 572 00:28:15,032 --> 00:28:18,712 Speaker 4: by nineteen thirty nine he is with Dulcie. They've decided 573 00:28:18,712 --> 00:28:21,151 Speaker 4: that they're going to go along to a house party 574 00:28:21,431 --> 00:28:25,352 Speaker 4: in brom Street and he's had an afternoon where he's 575 00:28:25,351 --> 00:28:28,112 Speaker 4: becoming more and more agitated because there's rival gang members 576 00:28:28,192 --> 00:28:29,152 Speaker 4: are probably going to be. 577 00:28:29,071 --> 00:28:29,631 Speaker 3: At that house. 578 00:28:30,391 --> 00:28:33,271 Speaker 4: The story is that he pulled out two pistols at 579 00:28:33,272 --> 00:28:36,111 Speaker 4: a football game that afternoon, didn't shoot them, didn't attack anyone, 580 00:28:36,111 --> 00:28:37,671 Speaker 4: but he was trying to sort of muster up this 581 00:28:37,792 --> 00:28:41,112 Speaker 4: idea of himself as still this criminal figure as such. 582 00:28:41,592 --> 00:28:43,031 Speaker 3: Turns up at the house with Dulcie. 583 00:28:43,112 --> 00:28:44,472 Speaker 4: She goes off to have a chat with the women 584 00:28:44,512 --> 00:28:46,312 Speaker 4: at the back of the house, and then there's this 585 00:28:46,512 --> 00:28:50,352 Speaker 4: complete panemonium takes place where there's an argument and in 586 00:28:50,592 --> 00:28:54,032 Speaker 4: the throes of the violence that's taking place, punches the throne, 587 00:28:54,032 --> 00:28:56,152 Speaker 4: people are scattering, and then the whole way of that 588 00:28:56,192 --> 00:28:58,671 Speaker 4: house we'd always shot in the abdomen twice at least, 589 00:28:59,112 --> 00:29:01,912 Speaker 4: and what happens is that he's crumpled over in pain. 590 00:29:02,072 --> 00:29:04,632 Speaker 4: Dulcie runs in and he dies in her arm. So 591 00:29:04,712 --> 00:29:08,511 Speaker 4: basically he ultimately he dies because of gang violence and 592 00:29:08,552 --> 00:29:09,392 Speaker 4: gang rivalry. 593 00:29:10,312 --> 00:29:13,432 Speaker 2: And does the same thing happen in terms of Dulcie 594 00:29:13,472 --> 00:29:15,911 Speaker 2: not wanting to tell the police or not wanting to 595 00:29:15,952 --> 00:29:19,032 Speaker 2: help any external not wanting to tell any sort of 596 00:29:19,072 --> 00:29:20,671 Speaker 2: external parties about what's happened. 597 00:29:20,712 --> 00:29:23,272 Speaker 4: Absolutely, she took off again, so she goes into hiding 598 00:29:23,352 --> 00:29:26,072 Speaker 4: away from the police because she knows that she's been 599 00:29:26,072 --> 00:29:27,191 Speaker 4: there in that immediate moment. 600 00:29:27,472 --> 00:29:28,592 Speaker 3: Now when she's got. 601 00:29:28,431 --> 00:29:32,632 Speaker 4: Guido in her lap while he's dying, there's a couple 602 00:29:32,671 --> 00:29:35,551 Speaker 4: of detectives come to the house obviously to investigate this 603 00:29:35,592 --> 00:29:38,112 Speaker 4: is crime scene. They go serious incident that's taken place, 604 00:29:38,472 --> 00:29:40,832 Speaker 4: and she doesn't tell them anything. She immediately that's the 605 00:29:40,911 --> 00:29:43,911 Speaker 4: moment where she's abiding by the underworld code of silence, 606 00:29:43,952 --> 00:29:46,312 Speaker 4: doesn't tell the police officers, and in the days and 607 00:29:46,312 --> 00:29:48,352 Speaker 4: weeks that follow she goes into hiding and the police 608 00:29:48,472 --> 00:29:51,232 Speaker 4: trying to find her. But they do have other women 609 00:29:51,272 --> 00:29:53,872 Speaker 4: at the house who can testify, who can give evidence 610 00:29:53,872 --> 00:29:54,872 Speaker 4: at the initial inquest. 611 00:29:54,952 --> 00:29:57,192 Speaker 3: Then it goes to trial, and. 612 00:29:57,112 --> 00:30:00,112 Speaker 4: Then those same women will give evidence at the trial. 613 00:30:00,152 --> 00:30:02,512 Speaker 4: But it's the trial doesn't go how the detectives would 614 00:30:02,552 --> 00:30:06,832 Speaker 4: want it to, even without Dulcie the other women. The 615 00:30:06,872 --> 00:30:09,032 Speaker 4: pressure is on them not to talk. And in fact, 616 00:30:09,032 --> 00:30:11,472 Speaker 4: the two men who were responsible said to be responsible, 617 00:30:11,512 --> 00:30:14,552 Speaker 4: they were both they were never never found guilty. 618 00:30:14,552 --> 00:30:16,552 Speaker 2: If you will, and when you say the pressure was 619 00:30:16,552 --> 00:30:19,312 Speaker 2: on them not to talk, would there be consequences if 620 00:30:19,312 --> 00:30:22,711 Speaker 2: you went and testified, you know, about someone in that 621 00:30:22,872 --> 00:30:26,872 Speaker 2: kind of gang world, would there be pretty serious consequences? 622 00:30:26,872 --> 00:30:27,392 Speaker 3: Absolutely? 623 00:30:27,472 --> 00:30:27,672 Speaker 2: Yeah. 624 00:30:27,712 --> 00:30:32,032 Speaker 4: While there was less violence that was inflicted directly towards women, 625 00:30:32,392 --> 00:30:34,511 Speaker 4: they certainly weren't free from that kind of violence. 626 00:30:34,552 --> 00:30:35,911 Speaker 3: So if you talk to the police. 627 00:30:35,911 --> 00:30:39,032 Speaker 4: If you gave evidence, then there would be members of 628 00:30:39,032 --> 00:30:40,951 Speaker 4: that Bronze Street gang who would find you. 629 00:30:41,072 --> 00:30:42,992 Speaker 3: And you don't have to be killed. 630 00:30:42,992 --> 00:30:44,951 Speaker 4: That doesn't have to happen, but there's enough violence that 631 00:30:44,992 --> 00:30:48,272 Speaker 4: could be inflicted that you learn the lesson if you will. 632 00:30:49,032 --> 00:30:51,952 Speaker 5: We must get word to girls everywhere throughout the country, 633 00:30:52,352 --> 00:30:55,511 Speaker 5: no matter how bad the conditions where you are, unless 634 00:30:55,552 --> 00:30:57,792 Speaker 5: you have money enough to support yourself in the city 635 00:30:57,872 --> 00:30:58,992 Speaker 5: for a poor year. 636 00:30:59,431 --> 00:31:00,191 Speaker 3: Stay home. 637 00:31:01,352 --> 00:31:05,472 Speaker 2: Now, in the nineteen forties, there's a record of Dulcy 638 00:31:05,872 --> 00:31:10,511 Speaker 2: having a child. What do we know about what happened there, 639 00:31:10,552 --> 00:31:14,832 Speaker 2: because obviously she's been working in sex work for years 640 00:31:14,872 --> 00:31:17,312 Speaker 2: before that, and then there's this record. But things get 641 00:31:17,392 --> 00:31:17,951 Speaker 2: quite murky. 642 00:31:18,552 --> 00:31:21,272 Speaker 4: They get murky, and that they still are murky because 643 00:31:21,792 --> 00:31:25,352 Speaker 4: she refers to a child in evidence that she gives 644 00:31:26,112 --> 00:31:29,032 Speaker 4: in a case of charges laid against her, and the 645 00:31:29,112 --> 00:31:31,592 Speaker 4: child would be very young at that stage. Ten years later, 646 00:31:31,671 --> 00:31:33,272 Speaker 4: she's referring to a ten year old daughter. 647 00:31:33,632 --> 00:31:34,512 Speaker 3: That's all we've got. 648 00:31:34,632 --> 00:31:38,152 Speaker 4: We don't actually know who the father was, we don't 649 00:31:38,192 --> 00:31:42,272 Speaker 4: know the child's name, there's no formal registration of that birth, 650 00:31:42,352 --> 00:31:46,592 Speaker 4: so there's a lot of questions around that child. Potentially 651 00:31:46,752 --> 00:31:49,671 Speaker 4: the daughter could still be alive, and I've heard from 652 00:31:49,832 --> 00:31:54,232 Speaker 4: some family that she is still alive, but she doesn't 653 00:31:54,272 --> 00:31:57,911 Speaker 4: talk about her mother very It's a sore point, if 654 00:31:57,911 --> 00:32:00,671 Speaker 4: you will. And so when I was putting together Dulci's story, 655 00:32:00,752 --> 00:32:04,312 Speaker 4: I had contacted her family. Her nephew was only made 656 00:32:04,312 --> 00:32:06,832 Speaker 4: aware of his aunt's story after his mine died, so 657 00:32:06,872 --> 00:32:09,191 Speaker 4: he never knew he had this notorious aunt Dlci in 658 00:32:09,232 --> 00:32:12,552 Speaker 4: his family. So they're still putting together their story as well. 659 00:32:13,232 --> 00:32:15,711 Speaker 4: But we don't know what happened to the daughter. 660 00:32:16,752 --> 00:32:19,432 Speaker 2: So do you think that from that information we could 661 00:32:19,472 --> 00:32:23,432 Speaker 2: deduce that it was a complicated relationship, like if they 662 00:32:23,512 --> 00:32:25,272 Speaker 2: had been if she'd had a daughter and they sort 663 00:32:25,272 --> 00:32:27,911 Speaker 2: of lived together and they were close, then do you 664 00:32:27,911 --> 00:32:29,152 Speaker 2: think there'd be more information? 665 00:32:29,952 --> 00:32:30,711 Speaker 3: Look, there might be. 666 00:32:30,952 --> 00:32:33,872 Speaker 4: It's really dependent on that daughter, you know, and what 667 00:32:33,952 --> 00:32:36,431 Speaker 4: we don't know for certain the kind of relationship that 668 00:32:36,512 --> 00:32:38,951 Speaker 4: they had. I would imagine it would have been a 669 00:32:38,952 --> 00:32:42,191 Speaker 4: pretty difficult life to be involved in. And I'm not 670 00:32:42,232 --> 00:32:45,432 Speaker 4: sure if Dulcie's daughter stayed with her for the long term. 671 00:32:45,952 --> 00:32:47,671 Speaker 4: It could well be that she was in care or 672 00:32:47,712 --> 00:32:50,392 Speaker 4: she was with other family. If you imagine it, you know, 673 00:32:50,632 --> 00:32:52,872 Speaker 4: that's a pretty hard life to have if your mum 674 00:32:53,032 --> 00:32:55,472 Speaker 4: is running away from the law on a regular occasion 675 00:32:55,911 --> 00:32:59,671 Speaker 4: and your mum's also working in sex work, involved with 676 00:32:59,792 --> 00:33:02,112 Speaker 4: drugs and then also involved. 677 00:33:01,671 --> 00:33:03,911 Speaker 3: With the gambling hazes as well. Pretty tough life for 678 00:33:04,192 --> 00:33:04,672 Speaker 3: a kid to. 679 00:33:04,592 --> 00:33:08,592 Speaker 2: Grow up in. In the early nineteen fifties, there's a 680 00:33:08,632 --> 00:33:13,272 Speaker 2: case where Dulcie finds herself shot in the hip along 681 00:33:13,352 --> 00:33:17,112 Speaker 2: with a partner. I believe Gavin yes what led to 682 00:33:17,112 --> 00:33:17,712 Speaker 2: that incident? 683 00:33:18,232 --> 00:33:22,072 Speaker 4: So the Walsh brothers were another example of underworld figures 684 00:33:22,072 --> 00:33:26,912 Speaker 4: who's crossed too many leaders, too many people. And there's 685 00:33:26,952 --> 00:33:30,392 Speaker 4: an incident that occurs in Dulcie's Faukner Street cottage where 686 00:33:30,592 --> 00:33:32,672 Speaker 4: as a gentleman turns up and he wants to talk 687 00:33:32,712 --> 00:33:34,991 Speaker 4: to the Walsh brothers. Dulcie's asleep on the bed with 688 00:33:35,032 --> 00:33:37,632 Speaker 4: one of the brothers. The other brother answers the door, 689 00:33:38,192 --> 00:33:40,711 Speaker 4: and the individual who's wanting to talk to the Walsh 690 00:33:40,712 --> 00:33:44,231 Speaker 4: boys he shoots that brother, who cups a bullet through 691 00:33:44,272 --> 00:33:46,112 Speaker 4: the hand trying to protect himself. He turns out to 692 00:33:46,112 --> 00:33:49,952 Speaker 4: be okay, but this offender runs into the bedroom and 693 00:33:50,072 --> 00:33:52,632 Speaker 4: he shoots at the other brother, but in the meantime, 694 00:33:52,712 --> 00:33:54,992 Speaker 4: Dulcie's caught in the crossfire, so she shot on the 695 00:33:55,032 --> 00:33:57,472 Speaker 4: hip and falls off the bed and she's slumped down 696 00:33:57,472 --> 00:34:00,632 Speaker 4: on the ground next to the other Walsh brother who 697 00:34:00,671 --> 00:34:03,192 Speaker 4: he died from his pretty horrific injuries. 698 00:34:03,392 --> 00:34:07,152 Speaker 2: Again next to her. Yes, wow, this point, she's had 699 00:34:07,192 --> 00:34:10,512 Speaker 2: some pretty you know, been involved in some pretty serious 700 00:34:10,552 --> 00:34:14,712 Speaker 2: incidents and she's is she still working a sort of 701 00:34:14,872 --> 00:34:16,512 Speaker 2: in the sex industry at this point. 702 00:34:16,672 --> 00:34:19,312 Speaker 3: She is at the time. But what changes is that 703 00:34:19,551 --> 00:34:20,632 Speaker 3: the injuries. 704 00:34:20,192 --> 00:34:24,071 Speaker 4: That she sustains pretty horrific bullet wounds to her hip. 705 00:34:24,911 --> 00:34:27,112 Speaker 4: It means that she's on crutches for a fair amount 706 00:34:27,152 --> 00:34:28,631 Speaker 4: of time. So if you think about it, that's going 707 00:34:28,672 --> 00:34:31,312 Speaker 4: to do you out of some business. Yeah, because you 708 00:34:31,352 --> 00:34:33,832 Speaker 4: can't perform as she could have done before. 709 00:34:34,192 --> 00:34:36,312 Speaker 3: Not that she didn't try. Had a lot of staking 710 00:34:36,352 --> 00:34:38,031 Speaker 3: power in her, she certainly did. 711 00:34:38,632 --> 00:34:40,752 Speaker 4: I mean, there's one great story before all this happens, 712 00:34:40,752 --> 00:34:43,551 Speaker 4: that she was a police officers stumbled across her and 713 00:34:43,832 --> 00:34:45,511 Speaker 4: killed her when she was half naked running down the 714 00:34:45,511 --> 00:34:48,431 Speaker 4: street with an axe, and you think that's pretty that's 715 00:34:48,511 --> 00:34:50,551 Speaker 4: pretty obscene to see that, but she thought there was 716 00:34:50,592 --> 00:34:52,112 Speaker 4: nothing wrong with this. In Tourne around and said to 717 00:34:52,152 --> 00:34:53,712 Speaker 4: them that she had a client who tried to do 718 00:34:53,752 --> 00:34:55,752 Speaker 4: her out of some money, so it's perfectly fine for 719 00:34:55,792 --> 00:34:58,511 Speaker 4: her to chase him down the street half naked with 720 00:34:58,592 --> 00:34:59,112 Speaker 4: an axe. 721 00:34:59,152 --> 00:35:00,511 Speaker 3: This is the kind of woman that she was. 722 00:35:00,592 --> 00:35:02,872 Speaker 4: She had to really protect herself and she was pretty 723 00:35:02,911 --> 00:35:05,792 Speaker 4: pretty tough. But going back to nineteen fifty one, when 724 00:35:05,792 --> 00:35:08,712 Speaker 4: she's been show her work, afterwards, it was hard for 725 00:35:08,752 --> 00:35:11,832 Speaker 4: her to keep up that work. She did continue in prostitution, 726 00:35:11,951 --> 00:35:14,471 Speaker 4: but not to the same extent because even after she 727 00:35:14,511 --> 00:35:17,872 Speaker 4: hasn't got the crutch, she has a limp and so 728 00:35:17,911 --> 00:35:21,312 Speaker 4: she's known as Limping Dulcy on the streets. So it 729 00:35:21,352 --> 00:35:23,671 Speaker 4: has a dramatic physical impact on her. 730 00:35:24,232 --> 00:35:28,232 Speaker 2: So what eventually leads her to leave that industry altogether. 731 00:35:28,672 --> 00:35:32,151 Speaker 4: You know what ultimately leads to her thinking that she's 732 00:35:32,152 --> 00:35:34,031 Speaker 4: got to get out because she might not survive. As 733 00:35:34,072 --> 00:35:37,151 Speaker 4: being thrown off the Bondai flats, this is a huge 734 00:35:37,152 --> 00:35:39,752 Speaker 4: wake up call for her because she could have died, 735 00:35:40,632 --> 00:35:43,711 Speaker 4: and particularly with the injuries that she sustained. So she's 736 00:35:43,712 --> 00:35:45,912 Speaker 4: starting to really look at herself and think that after 737 00:35:45,951 --> 00:35:48,072 Speaker 4: these years, you think about that, that's a nineteen fifties 738 00:35:48,072 --> 00:35:50,832 Speaker 4: she's been involved in this work since the late nineteen twenties. 739 00:35:51,031 --> 00:35:53,792 Speaker 3: That's a long time for anyone in that business. 740 00:35:53,951 --> 00:35:56,072 Speaker 4: But it's also a long time for anyone who's also 741 00:35:56,551 --> 00:36:00,232 Speaker 4: having to protect themselves on a very violent organized crime world. 742 00:36:00,511 --> 00:36:02,712 Speaker 4: So by about the mid nineteen fifties, she's starting to 743 00:36:02,991 --> 00:36:05,631 Speaker 4: think that she needs acquiet her life, and she gets 744 00:36:05,672 --> 00:36:08,312 Speaker 4: out of prostitute by the late nineteen fifties, lives a 745 00:36:08,352 --> 00:36:11,352 Speaker 4: pretty quiet life in the sixties, has a place in 746 00:36:11,392 --> 00:36:14,632 Speaker 4: Bondi and it's well known as Dulcie, you know, Dulcie 747 00:36:14,672 --> 00:36:17,951 Speaker 4: Markham of notoriety and Bondai. But the neighbors like her, 748 00:36:17,991 --> 00:36:20,672 Speaker 4: the locals like her, and she seems to live a 749 00:36:20,792 --> 00:36:21,992 Speaker 4: relatively quiet life. 750 00:36:22,232 --> 00:36:25,872 Speaker 2: And what happens in terms of her relationships then well, she. 751 00:36:25,752 --> 00:36:29,032 Speaker 4: Then marries a Sydney guy by the name of Martin 752 00:36:29,112 --> 00:36:31,952 Speaker 4: Rooney who seems not to have had any criminal record. 753 00:36:31,991 --> 00:36:34,471 Speaker 4: He just seems like a kind of regular guy. They 754 00:36:34,471 --> 00:36:37,192 Speaker 4: meet in the late nineteen sixties and they marry in 755 00:36:37,632 --> 00:36:41,832 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy two, and from nineteen seventy two to nineteen 756 00:36:41,872 --> 00:36:45,151 Speaker 4: seventy six, according to him, they seem to just live 757 00:36:45,192 --> 00:36:46,911 Speaker 4: a pretty regular suburban life. 758 00:36:46,991 --> 00:36:47,991 Speaker 3: And she was a great. 759 00:36:47,752 --> 00:36:50,911 Speaker 2: Housewife and what eventually happened to her. 760 00:36:52,431 --> 00:36:55,232 Speaker 4: She goes to bed one evening in April of nineteen 761 00:36:55,272 --> 00:36:55,872 Speaker 4: seventy six. 762 00:36:55,911 --> 00:36:57,792 Speaker 3: She tells Martin that he's going to feed the dog. 763 00:36:57,832 --> 00:37:01,272 Speaker 4: I mean it's so honorary, like for her whole life exactly. 764 00:37:01,632 --> 00:37:03,792 Speaker 3: He's running down the street with an axe. Yeah, she 765 00:37:03,832 --> 00:37:05,111 Speaker 3: goes to it sounds so lame. 766 00:37:05,392 --> 00:37:07,392 Speaker 4: Oh, she goes to bed, you know, April of nineteen 767 00:37:07,471 --> 00:37:09,432 Speaker 4: seventy six, you know, says can you feed the dog? 768 00:37:10,192 --> 00:37:12,071 Speaker 3: She asks him to feed dog? Clean up. She goes 769 00:37:12,112 --> 00:37:14,472 Speaker 3: to bed. She's smoking in bed, and that's what happens. 770 00:37:14,471 --> 00:37:16,991 Speaker 4: She falls asleep, the curtains catch light and the whole 771 00:37:17,072 --> 00:37:19,671 Speaker 4: room is up in flames. Her husband can't get to her, 772 00:37:19,752 --> 00:37:23,431 Speaker 4: obviously because of the flames the heat, and Australia's most 773 00:37:23,431 --> 00:37:27,392 Speaker 4: beautiful bad woman ultimately dies unrecognizable. And it's really quite 774 00:37:27,431 --> 00:37:29,672 Speaker 4: sad if you think about it, considering everything that she 775 00:37:29,911 --> 00:37:33,031 Speaker 4: had lived through in her life and an ultimately cigarette 776 00:37:33,072 --> 00:37:34,151 Speaker 4: that takes heright in the end. 777 00:37:38,511 --> 00:37:41,312 Speaker 2: And finally, do you think Angel of Death is a 778 00:37:41,431 --> 00:37:43,951 Speaker 2: fair a fair assessment of her life? 779 00:37:44,232 --> 00:37:45,631 Speaker 3: Do you think I think she would have liked her? 780 00:37:45,832 --> 00:37:45,991 Speaker 5: Yeah? 781 00:37:46,192 --> 00:37:48,631 Speaker 4: I think she liked the drama of it. She likes 782 00:37:48,672 --> 00:37:52,551 Speaker 4: the entertainment value. I think that's certainly something that made 783 00:37:52,551 --> 00:37:54,872 Speaker 4: her smile at the time, gave her a notoriety which 784 00:37:55,072 --> 00:37:57,832 Speaker 4: she did seek that no heariety as well. She liked 785 00:37:57,872 --> 00:38:01,951 Speaker 4: the element of being turning into turned into a celebrity 786 00:38:01,951 --> 00:38:05,232 Speaker 4: figure though she's criminal, you're a criminal celebrity. I think 787 00:38:05,352 --> 00:38:07,431 Speaker 4: that she would probably appreciate it. You know, what she'd 788 00:38:07,471 --> 00:38:10,632 Speaker 4: appreciate is the fact that somebody's telling her story. 789 00:38:10,991 --> 00:38:12,471 Speaker 3: Because we've talked a. 790 00:38:12,392 --> 00:38:15,272 Speaker 4: Lot about Kate Lee and Tillie Devine and other leading 791 00:38:15,312 --> 00:38:17,352 Speaker 4: figures at the time, and I'm pretty sure Delsey would 792 00:38:17,352 --> 00:38:19,591 Speaker 4: be sort of at the background shading and standing and 793 00:38:19,632 --> 00:38:21,951 Speaker 4: waving saying I'm here too, and I'm more beautiful than 794 00:38:21,991 --> 00:38:22,552 Speaker 4: these birds. 795 00:38:22,592 --> 00:38:26,752 Speaker 2: Anyway, that's very true. Thank you so much for speaking 796 00:38:26,752 --> 00:38:29,272 Speaker 2: to us today. I really enjoyed it, and it's a 797 00:38:29,272 --> 00:38:33,192 Speaker 2: fantastic book. It's so insightful and gives you such a 798 00:38:33,192 --> 00:38:37,152 Speaker 2: great sort of window into life at that time in Australia, 799 00:38:37,272 --> 00:38:38,792 Speaker 2: which was just so different. 800 00:38:39,072 --> 00:38:41,431 Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, thank you. It's been wonderful. 801 00:38:44,752 --> 00:38:47,512 Speaker 2: You can buy Lease Straw's new book, Angel of Death 802 00:38:47,911 --> 00:38:49,911 Speaker 2: via the link in our show Notes, or at any 803 00:38:49,951 --> 00:38:57,031 Speaker 2: good bookstore. True Crime Conversations is a Mum and mea podcast. 804 00:38:57,592 --> 00:39:01,392 Speaker 2: Our senior producer and editor is Alese Cooper. If you 805 00:39:01,592 --> 00:39:03,992 Speaker 2: liked this episode, then be sure to leave a review 806 00:39:04,112 --> 00:39:07,392 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.