1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:14,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:15,022 --> 00:00:18,582 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. 3 00:00:18,702 --> 00:00:26,822 Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on It's Melbourne Cup Day in 4 00:00:26,942 --> 00:00:30,062 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, and Julie Maybury has just taken her 5 00:00:30,062 --> 00:00:32,022 Speaker 2: two young daughters to the pub for the race that 6 00:00:32,062 --> 00:00:37,862 Speaker 2: stops the nation home just after four pm. They stopping 7 00:00:37,902 --> 00:00:40,902 Speaker 2: at the apartment next door for some tea. Julia's on 8 00:00:40,942 --> 00:00:42,142 Speaker 2: the phone to her mum in. 9 00:00:42,062 --> 00:00:44,302 Speaker 1: Aubrey, and two year old Rebecca is busy. 10 00:00:44,062 --> 00:00:47,382 Speaker 2: Playing when the neighbor, Lorna asks if six year old 11 00:00:47,422 --> 00:00:50,222 Speaker 2: Kylie can pop to the shops for some sugar as 12 00:00:50,222 --> 00:00:52,582 Speaker 2: long as she comes straight back, Julie. 13 00:00:52,302 --> 00:00:55,782 Speaker 1: Says over her shoulder. Sitting at the kitchen table. 14 00:00:56,062 --> 00:00:58,622 Speaker 2: Lorna has been teaching Kylie how to spell the words 15 00:00:58,782 --> 00:01:01,462 Speaker 2: I love you so off. The little girl goes out 16 00:01:01,502 --> 00:01:03,902 Speaker 2: the door with the phrase scrawled. 17 00:01:03,342 --> 00:01:05,342 Speaker 1: In biro up her arm. 18 00:01:05,782 --> 00:01:08,222 Speaker 2: Kylie does buy the sugar at the store one hundred 19 00:01:08,262 --> 00:01:11,862 Speaker 2: and fifty meters up the road, but she never returns 20 00:01:11,902 --> 00:01:16,822 Speaker 2: to Lorna's. Her body is found in a gutter in 21 00:01:16,862 --> 00:01:20,582 Speaker 2: the early hours of the next morning. What police determined 22 00:01:20,622 --> 00:01:24,742 Speaker 2: happened to her is unfathomable. It's a crime that shocks 23 00:01:24,782 --> 00:01:28,342 Speaker 2: Melbourne and puts the whole country on edge, and it'll 24 00:01:28,382 --> 00:01:31,662 Speaker 2: take thirty two years and a series of bizarre and 25 00:01:31,742 --> 00:01:42,782 Speaker 2: tragic twists to finally find her killer. I'm Jemma Bath 26 00:01:42,902 --> 00:01:45,702 Speaker 2: and this is True Crime Conversations a Mum of Me, 27 00:01:45,742 --> 00:01:49,822 Speaker 2: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 28 00:01:49,902 --> 00:01:52,022 Speaker 2: to the people who know the most about them. 29 00:01:52,302 --> 00:01:55,262 Speaker 3: It's a pain that you can't describe as a hole 30 00:01:55,302 --> 00:01:55,822 Speaker 3: in your heart. 31 00:01:56,342 --> 00:01:59,102 Speaker 1: You can't make anything warm in there, but you can 32 00:01:59,142 --> 00:02:03,502 Speaker 1: heal a flotly around it that you can't heal the wound. 33 00:02:04,102 --> 00:02:08,302 Speaker 2: That's Julie Maybury talking in twenty seventeen, thirty three years 34 00:02:08,462 --> 00:02:11,702 Speaker 2: after the murder of her daughter Kylie. What happened to 35 00:02:11,702 --> 00:02:15,582 Speaker 2: the six year old is every parent's worst nightmare. The 36 00:02:15,622 --> 00:02:19,942 Speaker 2: little girl was drugged, raped and murdered well ducking down 37 00:02:19,982 --> 00:02:22,662 Speaker 2: the road to buy some sugar. And please take that 38 00:02:22,742 --> 00:02:26,342 Speaker 2: into consideration when listening to this episode. It's a case 39 00:02:26,342 --> 00:02:29,342 Speaker 2: that former Herald's Son journalist and true crime author Keith 40 00:02:29,382 --> 00:02:32,342 Speaker 2: Moore has covered since the day Kylie's body was found. 41 00:02:32,982 --> 00:02:36,542 Speaker 2: He has interviewed her grieving mother many times and considered 42 00:02:36,582 --> 00:02:42,862 Speaker 2: her a friend. Keith joins Us now Keith. In the eighties, 43 00:02:42,982 --> 00:02:45,502 Speaker 2: Julie Maybray lived in a suburb of Melbourne with her 44 00:02:45,542 --> 00:02:48,382 Speaker 2: two little girls. Can you tell us about their family? 45 00:02:48,982 --> 00:02:51,982 Speaker 3: Yeah, Julie was a single mom, but she adored her 46 00:02:51,982 --> 00:02:54,262 Speaker 3: two daughters and was a very good single mom. I've 47 00:02:54,302 --> 00:02:56,622 Speaker 3: beat to her host a number of times since the murder. 48 00:02:57,182 --> 00:03:00,142 Speaker 3: And the day Callie disappeared was Melbourne copdre. She did 49 00:03:00,142 --> 00:03:02,222 Speaker 3: what a lot of parents do. She and a girlfriend 50 00:03:02,262 --> 00:03:04,782 Speaker 3: went to a local pub to watch the Melbourne Cup 51 00:03:04,982 --> 00:03:07,982 Speaker 3: and then went back to the friend's host for afternoon tea. 52 00:03:08,582 --> 00:03:10,302 Speaker 3: She adored her children. 53 00:03:10,662 --> 00:03:12,622 Speaker 2: So it was the neighbor's house, wasn't it. Can you 54 00:03:12,622 --> 00:03:14,622 Speaker 2: tell us a bit more about the movements? So they 55 00:03:14,662 --> 00:03:17,862 Speaker 2: went to Melbourne Cup at a local pub and then 56 00:03:17,902 --> 00:03:20,382 Speaker 2: they kind of came home ducked over to the neighbor's 57 00:03:20,382 --> 00:03:23,862 Speaker 2: house to have a cup of tea. What happened next 58 00:03:23,902 --> 00:03:26,622 Speaker 2: in terms of the movements of Kylie and the rest 59 00:03:26,662 --> 00:03:28,222 Speaker 2: of the family, Well, look, it. 60 00:03:28,182 --> 00:03:30,822 Speaker 3: Was about four point thirty pm when they decided to 61 00:03:30,822 --> 00:03:33,022 Speaker 3: have a cup of tea after having watched the Melbourne Cup, 62 00:03:33,542 --> 00:03:37,782 Speaker 3: and there was no sugar in the house, so basically Laurna. 63 00:03:37,862 --> 00:03:40,742 Speaker 3: The friend said to Julie, look as it okay if 64 00:03:40,822 --> 00:03:43,542 Speaker 3: Carlee wanders down to the local shop, which was only 65 00:03:43,582 --> 00:03:46,302 Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty meters from the house. Carley had 66 00:03:46,302 --> 00:03:49,142 Speaker 3: been there before, and it looked today you might think 67 00:03:49,262 --> 00:03:51,182 Speaker 3: it's old to send a six year old gill down 68 00:03:51,222 --> 00:03:53,662 Speaker 3: to the corner shop to get sugar. Back in nineteen 69 00:03:53,702 --> 00:03:55,822 Speaker 3: eighty four, it wasn't quite as old. There was no 70 00:03:55,982 --> 00:03:58,662 Speaker 3: streets to pass. She Calli had been to the shop 71 00:03:58,702 --> 00:04:02,382 Speaker 3: before and knew the shopkeeper, so basically Caroly turned up 72 00:04:02,422 --> 00:04:05,142 Speaker 3: at the shop. Police spoke to the shopkeeper afterwards, and 73 00:04:05,142 --> 00:04:08,462 Speaker 3: the shopkeeper remembered Calli coming in and asking for the 74 00:04:08,742 --> 00:04:11,462 Speaker 3: barg of sugar and plumping the coins on the counter. 75 00:04:12,262 --> 00:04:15,142 Speaker 3: Carlie then walked out of the shop never made it home. 76 00:04:15,702 --> 00:04:19,542 Speaker 2: How quickly did Julie raise the alarm, because obviously she 77 00:04:19,582 --> 00:04:22,542 Speaker 2: would have been expecting Kylie back within you know, a 78 00:04:22,582 --> 00:04:24,862 Speaker 2: few minutes, if it's only one hundred and fifty meters away. 79 00:04:25,342 --> 00:04:28,222 Speaker 3: Yes, look, it wasn't long ten to fifteen minutes. She 80 00:04:28,302 --> 00:04:30,182 Speaker 3: went out of the shop and wondered what had happened, 81 00:04:30,222 --> 00:04:33,622 Speaker 3: and the shopkeeper said, yes, Kelly has been in the 82 00:04:33,662 --> 00:04:37,422 Speaker 3: shop and left, and obviously that's when Julie started the 83 00:04:37,982 --> 00:04:41,862 Speaker 3: panic and started searching for ourselves. And then eventually the 84 00:04:41,862 --> 00:04:42,582 Speaker 3: police were called. 85 00:04:42,942 --> 00:04:46,662 Speaker 2: Were they able to trace Kylie's steps beyond making that 86 00:04:46,782 --> 00:04:49,262 Speaker 2: transaction with the shopkeeper for the sugar. 87 00:04:50,222 --> 00:04:52,262 Speaker 3: Now there was a witness that they had found that 88 00:04:52,622 --> 00:04:56,582 Speaker 3: for they saw a girl looking like Carlie getting into 89 00:04:56,622 --> 00:04:59,502 Speaker 3: a white vehicle and being driven away. It turned out, 90 00:04:59,782 --> 00:05:03,502 Speaker 3: decades afterwards, when that vehicle was trucked down to the perpetrator, 91 00:05:03,502 --> 00:05:07,142 Speaker 3: that that eyewitness was correct, that Kelly had indeed got 92 00:05:07,182 --> 00:05:08,342 Speaker 3: into a car with a man. 93 00:05:09,382 --> 00:05:13,102 Speaker 2: At twelve forty five the next morning there was the 94 00:05:13,182 --> 00:05:17,382 Speaker 2: discovery of Kylie's body. Firstly, location wise, can you tell 95 00:05:17,462 --> 00:05:20,902 Speaker 2: us about how far away that is from where we're 96 00:05:20,942 --> 00:05:22,102 Speaker 2: talking about. 97 00:05:22,342 --> 00:05:26,742 Speaker 3: It's within six hundred and fifty meters of the perpetrator's 98 00:05:26,782 --> 00:05:29,862 Speaker 3: house and not far from where the bag of sugar 99 00:05:29,902 --> 00:05:32,782 Speaker 3: was bought, less than a kilometer. And it was a 100 00:05:32,822 --> 00:05:36,982 Speaker 3: faberg electrician Neil Rickwood, who was driving home after night 101 00:05:37,022 --> 00:05:39,782 Speaker 3: shift that saw what he thought was a body lying 102 00:05:39,902 --> 00:05:43,022 Speaker 3: face down and the gutter in Donald Street, Preston. He 103 00:05:43,102 --> 00:05:45,622 Speaker 3: then went home and spoke to his father, his father 104 00:05:45,702 --> 00:05:48,222 Speaker 3: came back and they then rung police and it was 105 00:05:48,582 --> 00:05:52,822 Speaker 3: one fifteen am when the first police officers arrived at 106 00:05:52,862 --> 00:05:56,142 Speaker 3: the scene and a search found out. Remembering this is 107 00:05:56,182 --> 00:05:58,742 Speaker 3: the early hours of the morning after Melbourne Cup Day, 108 00:05:59,262 --> 00:06:02,862 Speaker 3: obviously there was a massive search for Carle from about 109 00:06:02,902 --> 00:06:06,422 Speaker 3: five point thirty pm six pm, where all the streets 110 00:06:06,422 --> 00:06:09,582 Speaker 3: in the area were searched, including Donald Street where the 111 00:06:09,582 --> 00:06:13,222 Speaker 3: body was found. And that body wasn't there at seven 112 00:06:13,382 --> 00:06:16,862 Speaker 3: thirty pm on Melbourne Coup night, and of course the 113 00:06:16,862 --> 00:06:20,582 Speaker 3: body was there shortly after midnight round about one am. 114 00:06:20,982 --> 00:06:23,702 Speaker 3: Saw what the police presume and later found out to 115 00:06:23,702 --> 00:06:26,502 Speaker 3: be correct, was that whoever tuck Cary had held her 116 00:06:26,502 --> 00:06:29,702 Speaker 3: prisoner somewhere for a number of hours before dumping her 117 00:06:29,702 --> 00:06:30,502 Speaker 3: body in the. 118 00:06:30,422 --> 00:06:33,742 Speaker 2: Godda, which is harrowing to think about six years old. 119 00:06:34,422 --> 00:06:36,822 Speaker 2: Where were you in all of this because you were 120 00:06:36,862 --> 00:06:38,782 Speaker 2: covering the story as a reporter at the time. 121 00:06:39,182 --> 00:06:42,142 Speaker 3: Yes, look, I haven't been at the Melbourne Herald, which 122 00:06:42,142 --> 00:06:44,222 Speaker 3: is enough of new newspaper very long. I've joined it 123 00:06:44,222 --> 00:06:47,662 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty three and obviously, being fairly new with 124 00:06:47,702 --> 00:06:49,862 Speaker 3: the job, you tend to get the worst shifts. So 125 00:06:49,902 --> 00:06:52,622 Speaker 3: I was on the midnight to dawn shift based out 126 00:06:52,662 --> 00:06:56,862 Speaker 3: of Russell Street Police headquarters. The media had rooms there. 127 00:06:57,382 --> 00:07:00,102 Speaker 3: I was sitting in there about the one thirty mile 128 00:07:00,262 --> 00:07:02,782 Speaker 3: listening to the police scanner, which in those days you could. 129 00:07:02,822 --> 00:07:04,902 Speaker 3: I believe it's illegal now when you can't, but then 130 00:07:04,942 --> 00:07:07,302 Speaker 3: we used to listen to it, and my ears pricked 131 00:07:07,382 --> 00:07:09,782 Speaker 3: up when there was a Code thirty three. Corde thirty 132 00:07:09,782 --> 00:07:11,822 Speaker 3: three was called for a dead body and it gave 133 00:07:11,862 --> 00:07:15,382 Speaker 3: the address, so I jumped in the car and drove 134 00:07:15,422 --> 00:07:17,662 Speaker 3: out there. When I got there, there was a Loan 135 00:07:17,822 --> 00:07:23,062 Speaker 3: policeman standing there with blue tape surrounding what looked like 136 00:07:23,102 --> 00:07:25,982 Speaker 3: a body covered in a blanket in the GUDA. There 137 00:07:26,062 --> 00:07:29,302 Speaker 3: was me and my cameraman, and there was a pool 138 00:07:29,422 --> 00:07:33,022 Speaker 3: cameraman at channel seven, nine and ten employed to do 139 00:07:33,102 --> 00:07:36,822 Speaker 3: such things as well, and one other reporter from Channel ten. 140 00:07:36,902 --> 00:07:41,782 Speaker 3: From memory, we basically stood around waiting for the homicide 141 00:07:41,982 --> 00:07:44,582 Speaker 3: crew to arrive, and that often takes well that obviously 142 00:07:44,582 --> 00:07:47,422 Speaker 3: there's a crew that's on call. So whilst there's been 143 00:07:47,462 --> 00:07:50,582 Speaker 3: an inspector from the local area who preserved the scene, 144 00:07:50,902 --> 00:07:54,422 Speaker 3: it was obviously once the ambulance came and found that 145 00:07:54,662 --> 00:07:57,862 Speaker 3: she was indeed dead, the homicide crew had to be called. 146 00:07:57,902 --> 00:08:00,622 Speaker 3: So I was there when the homicide crew arrived with 147 00:08:00,662 --> 00:08:04,222 Speaker 3: the coroner, Hal Hollandstein. The first thing I did was 148 00:08:04,262 --> 00:08:07,502 Speaker 3: take the blanket off. Now it's not that you want 149 00:08:07,582 --> 00:08:10,142 Speaker 3: to look, but you have to. As a journal you've 150 00:08:10,142 --> 00:08:12,782 Speaker 3: got the take it in. And I'm already thinking, see, 151 00:08:12,782 --> 00:08:14,222 Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to fail this because it's an off 152 00:08:14,302 --> 00:08:16,862 Speaker 3: new newspaper by you know, my deadline was about nine 153 00:08:16,862 --> 00:08:19,782 Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning, and I'm wondering how long it's 154 00:08:19,782 --> 00:08:21,902 Speaker 3: going to be before the homicide crew will tell us 155 00:08:21,942 --> 00:08:25,302 Speaker 3: what's going on. So the blanket comes off, and I 156 00:08:25,342 --> 00:08:28,702 Speaker 3: obviously see that it's the body of a young girl. 157 00:08:29,062 --> 00:08:33,062 Speaker 3: She's fully closed, lying face down in the in the gutter. 158 00:08:34,662 --> 00:08:37,542 Speaker 3: Her left arm was underneath her body and her right 159 00:08:37,662 --> 00:08:41,542 Speaker 3: arm was sort of resting on the pavement. Homicide crew 160 00:08:41,622 --> 00:08:44,822 Speaker 3: in the corner inspected what they could see of the body, 161 00:08:45,742 --> 00:08:49,462 Speaker 3: and then I presume the coroner asked for the body 162 00:08:49,502 --> 00:08:55,622 Speaker 3: to be turned over. So when the body was turned over, 163 00:08:56,182 --> 00:09:00,902 Speaker 3: her arm went PLoP over and it banged down, and 164 00:09:00,942 --> 00:09:03,742 Speaker 3: I was close enough to actually see the body turning over, 165 00:09:03,782 --> 00:09:05,942 Speaker 3: and it just reminded me of a ragged doll, this 166 00:09:05,942 --> 00:09:12,702 Speaker 3: this tiny little girl's arm flopping over and again you 167 00:09:12,702 --> 00:09:14,982 Speaker 3: don't want to look, but you have to in case 168 00:09:15,462 --> 00:09:17,262 Speaker 3: there's a knife in the chest or whatever. And you 169 00:09:17,302 --> 00:09:19,662 Speaker 3: know you don't know how much the homicide crew are 170 00:09:19,702 --> 00:09:21,742 Speaker 3: going to tell you, so you've got to soak up 171 00:09:21,742 --> 00:09:23,582 Speaker 3: as much from the scene as you can because you've 172 00:09:23,582 --> 00:09:26,102 Speaker 3: got to write a story about it. The homicide crew 173 00:09:26,182 --> 00:09:29,142 Speaker 3: did come across and did give us a few details. 174 00:09:29,462 --> 00:09:32,182 Speaker 3: I then went back and wrote the first story. Then 175 00:09:32,182 --> 00:09:34,222 Speaker 3: I found out there was going to be an eight 176 00:09:34,222 --> 00:09:38,062 Speaker 3: am press conference where more details came out and appealed 177 00:09:38,062 --> 00:09:39,942 Speaker 3: to the public for help. So I went to that 178 00:09:40,062 --> 00:09:42,902 Speaker 3: and filed that story. So it's about ten or eleven 179 00:09:42,902 --> 00:09:45,102 Speaker 3: in the morning and I've been at work since midnight. 180 00:09:45,782 --> 00:09:48,462 Speaker 3: So I then drive home and as I walked through 181 00:09:48,462 --> 00:09:50,422 Speaker 3: the door, my wife said, oh, have you had to 182 00:09:50,422 --> 00:09:52,622 Speaker 3: do the awful call in mabray story? And I went 183 00:09:53,742 --> 00:09:59,702 Speaker 3: and started crying, as I do now after forty years. Now. 184 00:09:59,742 --> 00:10:02,942 Speaker 3: Maybe it's because I have a child. It's forty one, 185 00:10:03,342 --> 00:10:05,702 Speaker 3: I've just become a father for the first time. That 186 00:10:06,142 --> 00:10:08,302 Speaker 3: you wouldn't be human in my view if you weren't 187 00:10:08,302 --> 00:10:11,222 Speaker 3: affected by saying the dead body six year old girl 188 00:10:11,342 --> 00:10:13,262 Speaker 3: who you then found out had been raped and murdered. 189 00:10:14,582 --> 00:10:16,742 Speaker 3: Maybe it was because I was the first time father. 190 00:10:16,862 --> 00:10:21,222 Speaker 3: Maybe it's just because I'm human. But for months and 191 00:10:21,302 --> 00:10:25,182 Speaker 3: possibly years afterwards, I kept seeing that little arm flopping over, 192 00:10:25,862 --> 00:10:28,382 Speaker 3: and I made a pledge to myself on that day 193 00:10:28,422 --> 00:10:31,022 Speaker 3: that I'm going to keep writing about this case. I'm 194 00:10:31,022 --> 00:10:34,102 Speaker 3: not gonna let it slip by like lots of other stories. 195 00:10:34,542 --> 00:10:37,662 Speaker 3: So after two or three days, I said to the 196 00:10:37,662 --> 00:10:41,142 Speaker 3: homicide crew, look, there's nothing new. We're really keen on 197 00:10:41,182 --> 00:10:45,182 Speaker 3: the story. I don't want to knock on Julie's door unannounced. 198 00:10:45,822 --> 00:10:47,822 Speaker 3: Can you just check with it. I didn't obviously didn't 199 00:10:47,822 --> 00:10:50,142 Speaker 3: want to cause her any more stress. Whether she's happy 200 00:10:50,142 --> 00:10:51,862 Speaker 3: to do an interview with us, and we'll obviously make 201 00:10:51,902 --> 00:10:55,022 Speaker 3: it a pleat of the public for help. They contacted Julie, 202 00:10:55,022 --> 00:10:58,262 Speaker 3: and Julie graciously agreed to see me, and I went 203 00:10:58,262 --> 00:11:01,902 Speaker 3: in to see Julie, and in talking to her, built 204 00:11:01,982 --> 00:11:04,462 Speaker 3: up a bit of a rapport and strange, you know, 205 00:11:04,582 --> 00:11:07,462 Speaker 3: found out that we share the same birthday, maybe twenty seventh, 206 00:11:08,102 --> 00:11:12,942 Speaker 3: And Julie said to me, then will you stale this story? 207 00:11:13,222 --> 00:11:15,342 Speaker 3: And I said yes, of course I will, Julie, I said, 208 00:11:15,422 --> 00:11:17,822 Speaker 3: you know, I'm really affected by this. Yes I will. 209 00:11:18,622 --> 00:11:22,222 Speaker 3: So they did a one year anniversary piece. Julie then 210 00:11:23,222 --> 00:11:26,702 Speaker 3: sadly got into drugs and had a secession of awful 211 00:11:26,822 --> 00:11:30,422 Speaker 3: blocks that used to commit the balance on her and 212 00:11:30,502 --> 00:11:33,142 Speaker 3: me and Peter O'Connor, who was the homicide squad detective 213 00:11:33,182 --> 00:11:35,942 Speaker 3: dealing with the case at the time, became all like 214 00:11:36,062 --> 00:11:39,022 Speaker 3: social workers to Julie. She leaned on both of us. 215 00:11:39,222 --> 00:11:42,142 Speaker 3: So basically Julie and I had formed this bond. She 216 00:11:42,222 --> 00:11:45,022 Speaker 3: then met a nice clock who moved to Queensland, and 217 00:11:45,342 --> 00:11:47,582 Speaker 3: I didn't hear from her for a couple of years. 218 00:11:47,622 --> 00:11:50,582 Speaker 3: You're busy doing other things. Lots of other stories pop up. 219 00:11:50,702 --> 00:11:53,302 Speaker 3: It was on the fifth anniversary that Julie rang me 220 00:11:53,302 --> 00:11:55,422 Speaker 3: from Queensland and said, Okai, you know, sorry, I haven't 221 00:11:55,462 --> 00:11:57,782 Speaker 3: been a judge, moved up to Queensland, got my life 222 00:11:57,782 --> 00:12:01,422 Speaker 3: together again. It's the anniversary this coming we gained. I 223 00:12:01,462 --> 00:12:03,342 Speaker 3: was wondering if you put some flowers on the grave, 224 00:12:03,582 --> 00:12:05,822 Speaker 3: so I said, of course I will, Julie and then 225 00:12:05,862 --> 00:12:08,822 Speaker 3: put flowers on the grave, and that became a bit 226 00:12:08,862 --> 00:12:10,382 Speaker 3: of a tradition. She would bring me and I would 227 00:12:10,822 --> 00:12:14,142 Speaker 3: put flowers on the grave and then look, it was 228 00:12:14,182 --> 00:12:17,622 Speaker 3: probably eight on nine years where she just disappeared totally. 229 00:12:18,342 --> 00:12:23,142 Speaker 3: And it wasn't until the thirtieth anniversary twenty fourteen that 230 00:12:23,342 --> 00:12:26,422 Speaker 3: Julie rang me again and said, Keith, are you still 231 00:12:26,422 --> 00:12:29,102 Speaker 3: at the Herald's song? Said yeah, yeah, I said to 232 00:12:29,182 --> 00:12:32,302 Speaker 3: thirtyth aniversary coming up, and it had actually escaped me 233 00:12:32,342 --> 00:12:33,742 Speaker 3: that it was. You know, as I said, you get 234 00:12:33,742 --> 00:12:36,942 Speaker 3: busy on other things. And she said, there's been nothing 235 00:12:36,982 --> 00:12:40,102 Speaker 3: written for us, Keith, and that's because nothing new had happened. 236 00:12:40,622 --> 00:12:42,822 Speaker 3: Will you do a thirtieth anniversary piece? 237 00:12:43,462 --> 00:12:47,622 Speaker 2: Let's go back to when Kylie's body was first found 238 00:12:47,822 --> 00:12:51,462 Speaker 2: and an autopsy was performed obviously in the day or 239 00:12:51,462 --> 00:12:55,502 Speaker 2: two afterwards, and wanting to listeners that it's not very 240 00:12:55,582 --> 00:12:57,702 Speaker 2: nice to listen to, but Keith, can you tell us 241 00:12:57,822 --> 00:13:00,382 Speaker 2: what they were able to determine happened to Kylie? 242 00:13:00,702 --> 00:13:04,622 Speaker 3: Yes, look at the autopsy, it was discovered that a 243 00:13:04,822 --> 00:13:07,662 Speaker 3: Kelly had been given value because the drug was found 244 00:13:07,662 --> 00:13:10,262 Speaker 3: in our body. And Julie was asked whether there was 245 00:13:10,262 --> 00:13:12,582 Speaker 3: a of any value in the house and could she 246 00:13:12,742 --> 00:13:16,062 Speaker 3: have accidentally given a tour and duly assure them that no, 247 00:13:16,182 --> 00:13:19,582 Speaker 3: that wasn't the case. They weren't able to establish a 248 00:13:19,702 --> 00:13:22,902 Speaker 3: direct cause of death. They presumed she was suffocated, but 249 00:13:24,022 --> 00:13:28,462 Speaker 3: sadly and apologies for this, she had shocking internal injuries 250 00:13:28,862 --> 00:13:33,862 Speaker 3: which could only have been inflicted by the rape. The 251 00:13:33,982 --> 00:13:38,382 Speaker 3: injuries were just absolutely awful, and in fact they seemed 252 00:13:38,502 --> 00:13:41,662 Speaker 3: Detective Glenn Wolfe, who was a homicide good detective who 253 00:13:41,702 --> 00:13:45,102 Speaker 3: took over the case, said first of all about the 254 00:13:45,142 --> 00:13:49,942 Speaker 3: comprehensive search for Carli, which included Donald Street. He told 255 00:13:49,982 --> 00:13:52,182 Speaker 3: the coroner, it has to be concluded that the body 256 00:13:52,302 --> 00:13:55,222 Speaker 3: was not left there until very late at night. There 257 00:13:55,222 --> 00:13:58,782 Speaker 3: were no external indications of violence, but she was sexually 258 00:13:58,862 --> 00:14:04,542 Speaker 3: penetrated and suffered internal damage. The coroner's courted toxicologist examined 259 00:14:04,582 --> 00:14:08,502 Speaker 3: specimens taken from Cary's body discovered she had recently taken 260 00:14:08,982 --> 00:14:12,982 Speaker 3: the valuum was He suggests that the kidnapper had drugged 261 00:14:12,982 --> 00:14:16,342 Speaker 3: her before raping the killing her. What proved to be 262 00:14:17,542 --> 00:14:21,702 Speaker 3: what ended up solving the murder was they were able 263 00:14:21,782 --> 00:14:25,782 Speaker 3: to get seamen samples from Carli's body and her clothing, 264 00:14:26,462 --> 00:14:30,142 Speaker 3: and at the time DNA hadn't even been heard of. 265 00:14:30,582 --> 00:14:34,902 Speaker 3: It wasn't used anywhere in the world until nineteen eighty seven, 266 00:14:35,742 --> 00:14:38,062 Speaker 3: which just as a side issue, that was a case 267 00:14:38,102 --> 00:14:41,662 Speaker 3: in England where five thousand men in a small English 268 00:14:41,782 --> 00:14:44,582 Speaker 3: ten where two fifteen year old girls had been raped 269 00:14:44,622 --> 00:14:48,662 Speaker 3: and murdered. They got the whole village to submit to 270 00:14:48,702 --> 00:14:52,302 Speaker 3: a DNA test and it actually led to the freeing 271 00:14:52,342 --> 00:14:53,982 Speaker 3: of the man had been charged with it because it 272 00:14:54,022 --> 00:14:57,662 Speaker 3: wasn't him. And it was in about five years before 273 00:14:57,782 --> 00:15:01,902 Speaker 3: DNA was used for the first time anyway in Australia. 274 00:15:01,982 --> 00:15:06,542 Speaker 3: So obviously the perpetrator of this wasn't concerned about leaving 275 00:15:06,702 --> 00:15:10,022 Speaker 3: his bodily fluids because he had no idea that one 276 00:15:10,102 --> 00:15:12,822 Speaker 3: day the technology might exist to do something with that. 277 00:15:13,222 --> 00:15:15,582 Speaker 3: And this is a praise to the forensic science lab 278 00:15:15,782 --> 00:15:19,062 Speaker 3: who in nineteen eighty two, two years before Karli was 279 00:15:19,102 --> 00:15:22,022 Speaker 3: raped and murdered, the head of the biology lab said, up, 280 00:15:22,302 --> 00:15:25,382 Speaker 3: whilst we can't do anything with these seamen stained underpants, 281 00:15:25,462 --> 00:15:30,662 Speaker 3: nail or this bloodstained balaclava from the armed robbery, let's 282 00:15:30,742 --> 00:15:34,702 Speaker 3: just freeze it and see if one day technology catches 283 00:15:34,782 --> 00:15:37,822 Speaker 3: up with that. And they actually bolt this massive fridge 284 00:15:38,262 --> 00:15:40,902 Speaker 3: and put it in the corner. And over the next 285 00:15:41,142 --> 00:15:44,502 Speaker 3: ten to fifteen years there was nearly two thousand samples 286 00:15:44,542 --> 00:15:47,302 Speaker 3: from five hundred and eighty two unsold rapes that were 287 00:15:47,342 --> 00:15:52,382 Speaker 3: just stored in that freezer, and obviously Intendant once tonight 288 00:15:52,622 --> 00:15:55,702 Speaker 3: came to the fall to one day Testo's samples. But 289 00:15:56,382 --> 00:15:59,462 Speaker 3: like most forensic science labs right Australia that were underfunded, 290 00:16:00,062 --> 00:16:03,062 Speaker 3: hot cases take priority over cold cases. So basically that 291 00:16:03,142 --> 00:16:07,782 Speaker 3: freezer just sat day until Graham Afton, who became the 292 00:16:07,822 --> 00:16:10,142 Speaker 3: Chief Commissioner, was appointed as the head of the Forensic 293 00:16:10,142 --> 00:16:13,662 Speaker 3: sign Slaby in two thousand and nine, and I actually 294 00:16:13,662 --> 00:16:16,342 Speaker 3: interviewed them about getting the job and I said to him, 295 00:16:16,782 --> 00:16:18,622 Speaker 3: you heard about the freezer. He said, you know, I've 296 00:16:18,662 --> 00:16:20,702 Speaker 3: heard a couple of people talking about the freezer. What 297 00:16:20,822 --> 00:16:23,382 Speaker 3: is it? So we then got one of his assistants 298 00:16:23,382 --> 00:16:25,942 Speaker 3: in who explained how there was all these samples sitting 299 00:16:25,982 --> 00:16:28,182 Speaker 3: there that had had nothing done to them. 300 00:16:28,382 --> 00:16:31,782 Speaker 2: How incredible that they had the foresight to do that. 301 00:16:32,302 --> 00:16:34,902 Speaker 3: Well incredible, yes, and satinly they didn't have the time 302 00:16:34,942 --> 00:16:37,622 Speaker 3: to actually test them at that stage, but that actually 303 00:16:37,622 --> 00:16:40,862 Speaker 3: may be bonus because obviously the tech being able to 304 00:16:40,942 --> 00:16:45,462 Speaker 3: extract DNA from very small samples has got better as 305 00:16:45,502 --> 00:16:48,822 Speaker 3: every year has gone and it wasn't until Graham Ashton 306 00:16:48,902 --> 00:16:51,622 Speaker 3: became Assistant Commissioner for Crime and he had the power 307 00:16:51,622 --> 00:16:54,222 Speaker 3: to actually form a task force. That he did form 308 00:16:54,262 --> 00:16:56,422 Speaker 3: a task force, and he said, I want every one 309 00:16:56,462 --> 00:16:59,342 Speaker 3: of those two thousand samples tested, so basically did in. 310 00:16:59,422 --> 00:17:01,862 Speaker 3: It took years to get all the samples out. They 311 00:17:01,902 --> 00:17:04,422 Speaker 3: then of course put those samples on the DNA daughter 312 00:17:04,542 --> 00:17:07,142 Speaker 3: base and on the first day got one hundred and 313 00:17:07,142 --> 00:17:10,662 Speaker 3: thirty called hits. Called hit is when someone but it 314 00:17:10,702 --> 00:17:13,862 Speaker 3: isn't even the suspect. The DNA from the crime scene 315 00:17:14,222 --> 00:17:17,102 Speaker 3: matches the DNA from the person And a lot of 316 00:17:17,102 --> 00:17:18,782 Speaker 3: those cases are still going through the court. 317 00:17:18,782 --> 00:17:18,982 Speaker 2: To know. 318 00:17:19,182 --> 00:17:22,422 Speaker 3: The last time I checked, about five years ago, scores 319 00:17:22,422 --> 00:17:26,462 Speaker 3: of people have been convicted because of that dnare freezer. Wow. 320 00:17:26,902 --> 00:17:29,542 Speaker 3: That just shows whatever a great thing DNA is. 321 00:17:32,982 --> 00:17:36,982 Speaker 2: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass. 322 00:17:37,142 --> 00:17:40,742 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with ex journalist Keith Moore. Up next, we 323 00:17:40,862 --> 00:17:44,462 Speaker 2: discussed the series of unfortunate twists that evolved following the 324 00:17:44,502 --> 00:17:47,142 Speaker 2: investigation into who was responsible for. 325 00:17:47,142 --> 00:17:48,422 Speaker 1: Kylie Mabray's murder. 326 00:17:50,542 --> 00:17:53,902 Speaker 2: There's a quite a few unfortunate twists in this case 327 00:17:54,302 --> 00:17:56,582 Speaker 2: that I want to expand on, and I want to 328 00:17:56,582 --> 00:18:01,862 Speaker 2: start with Kylie's grandfather, John Moss, who was incorrectly accused 329 00:18:01,902 --> 00:18:02,422 Speaker 2: of the crime. 330 00:18:02,502 --> 00:18:03,542 Speaker 1: Wasn't he? 331 00:18:03,542 --> 00:18:06,782 Speaker 3: It was, and it was actually by Julie's brother, Mark Maybray, 332 00:18:06,862 --> 00:18:10,222 Speaker 3: who accused his own father, John Moss, And he actually 333 00:18:10,222 --> 00:18:14,102 Speaker 3: made statement to the homicide squad very soon afterwards. Again, 334 00:18:14,262 --> 00:18:16,622 Speaker 3: as I'm sure I don't have to tell you your listeners, 335 00:18:16,622 --> 00:18:19,622 Speaker 3: that in any given murder, the closest family members have 336 00:18:19,702 --> 00:18:24,142 Speaker 3: to be considered first and eliminated, because most murders are 337 00:18:24,182 --> 00:18:27,782 Speaker 3: committed by somebody known to the person. So he was 338 00:18:27,822 --> 00:18:32,342 Speaker 3: a suspect from the start because Mark nominated him as one. 339 00:18:32,502 --> 00:18:36,622 Speaker 3: But also we had a few weird sexual quirks that 340 00:18:36,742 --> 00:18:39,702 Speaker 3: his wife spoke about. He liked dressing in women's clothing. 341 00:18:40,182 --> 00:18:43,542 Speaker 3: So he became a suspect and was interviewed at length 342 00:18:43,542 --> 00:18:47,022 Speaker 3: by the homicide squad. But he had a cast in 343 00:18:47,102 --> 00:18:53,342 Speaker 3: alibi obviously wasn't him. But sadly, he committed suicide in 344 00:18:53,382 --> 00:18:57,022 Speaker 3: October nineteen eighty five, just pride of the first anniversary. 345 00:18:57,582 --> 00:18:59,262 Speaker 3: He got in the car and drove away and killed 346 00:18:59,302 --> 00:19:02,102 Speaker 3: himself and left a suicide note in which he said 347 00:19:02,142 --> 00:19:05,582 Speaker 3: the pressure had been considered a suspect for kelln Carly 348 00:19:05,702 --> 00:19:09,022 Speaker 3: had got to him too much, and then Loan behold 349 00:19:09,582 --> 00:19:16,942 Speaker 3: Mark Maybray, who shared his father's love of wearing ladies clothing. 350 00:19:17,742 --> 00:19:20,222 Speaker 3: Police became aware of that. He'd also been in jail 351 00:19:20,262 --> 00:19:22,382 Speaker 3: a number of times. He was a heavy character, he 352 00:19:22,422 --> 00:19:25,382 Speaker 3: had tattoos all over him, so he also had to 353 00:19:25,382 --> 00:19:28,582 Speaker 3: be treated as a suspect, and he ended up killing 354 00:19:28,662 --> 00:19:31,262 Speaker 3: himself as well. And of course it wasn't either of them, 355 00:19:31,342 --> 00:19:35,022 Speaker 3: It wasn't him. So you've got Julie's dad an Julie's 356 00:19:35,062 --> 00:19:38,982 Speaker 3: brother both killing themselves under the pressure being considered a 357 00:19:38,982 --> 00:19:40,662 Speaker 3: suspect for the Cary Maybury murder. 358 00:19:41,142 --> 00:19:45,142 Speaker 2: That brings us to Robert Arthur Selby Lowe and he 359 00:19:45,222 --> 00:19:47,742 Speaker 2: became a suspect in this case after the murder of 360 00:19:47,782 --> 00:19:52,062 Speaker 2: another six year old in nineteen ninety one. What happened 361 00:19:52,102 --> 00:19:53,782 Speaker 2: with him? How is he linked to the case and 362 00:19:53,822 --> 00:19:55,022 Speaker 2: what happened next? 363 00:19:55,262 --> 00:19:58,342 Speaker 3: Yes, well, Robert Arthur Selby Law murdered Schari Beasley in 364 00:19:58,422 --> 00:20:02,422 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one. She was a six year old girl, 365 00:20:02,502 --> 00:20:08,862 Speaker 3: and it became a suspect because there was a number 366 00:20:08,862 --> 00:20:12,782 Speaker 3: of similarities in that both girls were six. That had 367 00:20:12,782 --> 00:20:17,942 Speaker 3: both been dumped in similar areas. Robert Arthur selby Law 368 00:20:18,062 --> 00:20:23,182 Speaker 3: was worked in the area of Preston Delivery, and Carly's 369 00:20:23,342 --> 00:20:27,022 Speaker 3: strawberry shortcake little handbag that she had with her when 370 00:20:27,022 --> 00:20:30,382 Speaker 3: she went to get the sugar had been found near 371 00:20:30,422 --> 00:20:33,582 Speaker 3: where Robert Arthur selby Law lived. So basically there was 372 00:20:33,662 --> 00:20:37,102 Speaker 3: circumstantial evidence there that you think fortune. There aren't many 373 00:20:37,182 --> 00:20:40,382 Speaker 3: offenders who rape murder six year old girls, so the 374 00:20:40,382 --> 00:20:42,622 Speaker 3: fact that there's two six year old girls who'd been 375 00:20:42,662 --> 00:20:45,222 Speaker 3: ripped and murdered in similar circumstances, of course he had 376 00:20:45,222 --> 00:20:48,862 Speaker 3: to be a suspect. By this stage, they had DNA 377 00:20:49,382 --> 00:20:53,182 Speaker 3: from Cary's body, so all they needed was Robert Arthur 378 00:20:53,822 --> 00:20:58,582 Speaker 3: Law's DNA. Remembering he's already convicted and sentenced to life 379 00:20:58,622 --> 00:21:01,382 Speaker 3: in jail. At that stage, police didn't have the power 380 00:21:01,382 --> 00:21:04,582 Speaker 3: to force him to give his DNA, so the Victorian 381 00:21:04,622 --> 00:21:09,062 Speaker 3: government was approached and the Victorian government introduced legislation whereby 382 00:21:09,342 --> 00:21:13,542 Speaker 3: about three thousand prisoners who hadn't had their DNA taken 383 00:21:14,022 --> 00:21:16,062 Speaker 3: were going to be forced to give their DNA. And 384 00:21:16,062 --> 00:21:20,222 Speaker 3: they were obviously murderers, rapists, arm brothers, very serious criminals, 385 00:21:20,782 --> 00:21:23,502 Speaker 3: and Robert Ofthicel Below was going to be the first 386 00:21:23,542 --> 00:21:26,222 Speaker 3: cub off the rank for that when the legislation was passed. 387 00:21:27,142 --> 00:21:31,142 Speaker 3: Legislation gets passed, Victoria Police then go to Robert Orthicel 388 00:21:31,182 --> 00:21:35,822 Speaker 3: Below and get his DNA. He then, a tax pays expense, 389 00:21:36,782 --> 00:21:40,662 Speaker 3: mounted a constitutional challenge to the validity of the act 390 00:21:40,862 --> 00:21:43,222 Speaker 3: in the High Court. Wow, can you imagine how much 391 00:21:43,222 --> 00:21:46,142 Speaker 3: would cost you and I to mount any sort of 392 00:21:46,222 --> 00:21:48,782 Speaker 3: high court challenge. Yet he was granted legal aid to 393 00:21:48,782 --> 00:21:52,942 Speaker 3: do that, and that only strengthened the opinion of Julie, 394 00:21:52,982 --> 00:21:55,582 Speaker 3: who I spoke to about it as she was in court, 395 00:21:55,622 --> 00:21:57,382 Speaker 3: as was I the day, because he had to go 396 00:21:57,422 --> 00:21:59,702 Speaker 3: to the magistrate's court to say I'm not going to 397 00:21:59,702 --> 00:22:03,062 Speaker 3: give my DNA because I'm mounting this challenge, and that's 398 00:22:03,102 --> 00:22:06,782 Speaker 3: when the magistrate basically said, okay, we'll have to wait 399 00:22:06,822 --> 00:22:09,822 Speaker 3: until that challenge happens. So Victoria Place then had the 400 00:22:09,822 --> 00:22:13,062 Speaker 3: options off of opposing that in the High Court, which 401 00:22:13,102 --> 00:22:15,302 Speaker 3: would cost taxpayers a heck of a lot of money 402 00:22:15,302 --> 00:22:17,302 Speaker 3: as well, and would take years because it takes a 403 00:22:17,302 --> 00:22:20,502 Speaker 3: long time to get such a case on that. Ronidles, 404 00:22:20,502 --> 00:22:22,462 Speaker 3: who was ahead of the cold case squad at the time, 405 00:22:23,062 --> 00:22:25,622 Speaker 3: thought outside the box, and he thought, if we're going 406 00:22:25,622 --> 00:22:28,862 Speaker 3: to spend all that money pursuing this in the High Court, 407 00:22:29,102 --> 00:22:32,142 Speaker 3: it would be really nice to know whether he actually 408 00:22:32,142 --> 00:22:34,542 Speaker 3: did do it, and we're going to get a match. So, 409 00:22:35,622 --> 00:22:38,862 Speaker 3: and knowing it would take years before they could legitimately 410 00:22:38,862 --> 00:22:43,502 Speaker 3: get his DNA under the Act, he decided to ask 411 00:22:43,582 --> 00:22:46,942 Speaker 3: a prison officer while Robert orthur Selblow was out of 412 00:22:46,942 --> 00:22:50,062 Speaker 3: his cell, to go into Robert orthur Sell Below's cell 413 00:22:50,662 --> 00:22:53,542 Speaker 3: and seize his haybrush, his comb and a couple of 414 00:22:53,542 --> 00:22:57,822 Speaker 3: his razors to get it tested surreptitiously. I'm in the loop. 415 00:22:57,862 --> 00:23:00,662 Speaker 3: I've got a good repose Ronidills, And because I'm covering 416 00:23:00,662 --> 00:23:03,302 Speaker 3: the case, I was aware that this was happening, and 417 00:23:03,342 --> 00:23:05,422 Speaker 3: I've sworn to secrecy not to write about it. They 418 00:23:05,462 --> 00:23:09,862 Speaker 3: trust me, I trust them. So I'm waiting for Ronidles 419 00:23:09,862 --> 00:23:11,542 Speaker 3: to ring me with the result. And I've got the 420 00:23:11,542 --> 00:23:13,702 Speaker 3: story you already written though, you know, And I'm thinking, 421 00:23:13,822 --> 00:23:17,262 Speaker 3: Paige one Lee, you know, Manchad solved after all this time, So. 422 00:23:17,342 --> 00:23:20,622 Speaker 2: Was Davies, you know, a witness or a suspect. 423 00:23:20,382 --> 00:23:22,342 Speaker 3: Espasically in nineteen eighty four, he was he was a 424 00:23:22,342 --> 00:23:25,422 Speaker 3: person of interest immediately simply because he had convictions for 425 00:23:25,502 --> 00:23:28,022 Speaker 3: sexual assault and violence and he lived in the area. 426 00:23:28,502 --> 00:23:31,742 Speaker 3: And at the time police interviewed not just him, and 427 00:23:31,822 --> 00:23:35,302 Speaker 3: he said that he was at his brother's house and 428 00:23:35,302 --> 00:23:37,982 Speaker 3: there's a statement from the sister in law saying, yes, 429 00:23:38,022 --> 00:23:40,142 Speaker 3: he was here all afternoon because it was Melbourne Cup 430 00:23:40,222 --> 00:23:43,142 Speaker 3: Day and he didn't leave till way after she'd disappeared. 431 00:23:43,902 --> 00:23:47,182 Speaker 3: So he was cleared in nineteen eighty four, and then 432 00:23:47,222 --> 00:23:50,702 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety seven there was a call to crime 433 00:23:50,742 --> 00:23:55,262 Speaker 3: Stoppers where he was. He was nominated as a suspect 434 00:23:55,262 --> 00:23:58,502 Speaker 3: at the time. Now, at the time, all that person 435 00:23:58,542 --> 00:24:00,902 Speaker 3: did was really anonymously and say you should have a 436 00:24:00,942 --> 00:24:03,822 Speaker 3: look at greatly with Tith Davies over the Cali Mayby murder. 437 00:24:04,142 --> 00:24:07,582 Speaker 3: And what police later found out, as did I because 438 00:24:07,622 --> 00:24:10,342 Speaker 3: I interviewed him, wasn't what it was one of great 439 00:24:10,742 --> 00:24:11,982 Speaker 3: Keith Davis's brothers. 440 00:24:12,102 --> 00:24:12,542 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 441 00:24:12,662 --> 00:24:16,302 Speaker 3: He'd always thought maybe it was him, simply because he 442 00:24:16,342 --> 00:24:18,422 Speaker 3: knew the background. I mean, he didn't know for sure. 443 00:24:18,942 --> 00:24:21,102 Speaker 3: So basically in nineteen ninety seven that brother had wrong 444 00:24:21,302 --> 00:24:23,982 Speaker 3: crime stoppers. Crime Stoppers then give it to the homicide 445 00:24:24,022 --> 00:24:26,942 Speaker 3: crew and again this isn't a criticism of the police 446 00:24:26,942 --> 00:24:30,542 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety seven, but that didn't interview Gregor Keith 447 00:24:30,582 --> 00:24:33,382 Speaker 3: Davies a second time. They just went to the file 448 00:24:33,942 --> 00:24:36,182 Speaker 3: found out why he was eliminated in nineteen eighty four, 449 00:24:36,382 --> 00:24:38,462 Speaker 3: and that was because he had a cast iron alibi 450 00:24:38,502 --> 00:24:41,742 Speaker 3: that was given by his sister in law. So again 451 00:24:41,782 --> 00:24:45,542 Speaker 3: they eliminated him again in nineteen ninety seven without speaking 452 00:24:45,582 --> 00:24:48,222 Speaker 3: to him, but again they didn't know it was the brother. 453 00:24:48,342 --> 00:24:51,022 Speaker 3: Like if obviously the Norman was his own brother, dubbing 454 00:24:51,062 --> 00:24:53,462 Speaker 3: him in, who would have made it a priority. And 455 00:24:53,542 --> 00:24:56,742 Speaker 3: plus in nineteen ninety seven Dignay was still in its infancy, 456 00:24:56,982 --> 00:24:59,822 Speaker 3: so he gets away with it again in nineteen ninety seven. 457 00:25:00,302 --> 00:25:03,222 Speaker 2: Who was Gregory Keith Davies in nineteen eighty four? Can 458 00:25:03,222 --> 00:25:04,662 Speaker 2: you paint a bit of a picture of who he 459 00:25:04,782 --> 00:25:05,702 Speaker 2: was in that community? 460 00:25:06,182 --> 00:25:11,542 Speaker 3: Yeah, is nineteen eighty four. He was very accomplished singer. 461 00:25:11,862 --> 00:25:13,742 Speaker 3: He sort of did the circuits. He sort of dressed 462 00:25:13,782 --> 00:25:18,342 Speaker 3: himself up as a cowboy and did sort of pubsessions. 463 00:25:18,742 --> 00:25:22,502 Speaker 3: And he was one of eleven brothers, lived at home 464 00:25:22,542 --> 00:25:26,382 Speaker 3: with his mum. He had spent time and that's why 465 00:25:26,462 --> 00:25:31,382 Speaker 3: he became a suspect in nineteen seventy a girl was 466 00:25:31,542 --> 00:25:34,182 Speaker 3: attacked on the hourst Bridge line and she was so 467 00:25:34,302 --> 00:25:37,422 Speaker 3: badly injured that she ended up happily give her evidence 468 00:25:37,422 --> 00:25:40,222 Speaker 3: from a wheelchair in the Melbourne Magistrates Court. And what 469 00:25:40,342 --> 00:25:41,982 Speaker 3: she said to the court was she was sitting in 470 00:25:42,022 --> 00:25:44,542 Speaker 3: the compartment when a man came up and started hitting 471 00:25:44,582 --> 00:25:47,062 Speaker 3: me on the head with a hammer, fell to the floor, 472 00:25:47,102 --> 00:25:48,782 Speaker 3: went back into the other part of the carriage. Then 473 00:25:48,822 --> 00:25:50,142 Speaker 3: he came back and hit me on the shoulder with 474 00:25:50,142 --> 00:25:52,542 Speaker 3: a hammer once more. The next thing she remembered was 475 00:25:52,622 --> 00:25:55,502 Speaker 3: being in the ambulance. The doctor told the court she 476 00:25:55,582 --> 00:25:58,782 Speaker 3: had severe depressions of the skull when she arrived at 477 00:25:58,822 --> 00:26:01,222 Speaker 3: the hospital and that she was partly paralyzed on her 478 00:26:01,262 --> 00:26:06,182 Speaker 3: left side. And basically he went to jail for ten 479 00:26:06,302 --> 00:26:08,942 Speaker 3: years over beating her to a pump. And at the 480 00:26:08,982 --> 00:26:11,902 Speaker 3: time he was a twenty years your own welder who 481 00:26:11,902 --> 00:26:15,702 Speaker 3: lived in Thornbury. He didn't do before ten years And 482 00:26:15,782 --> 00:26:19,742 Speaker 3: what some relatives of Gregor kit Davis told me afterwards 483 00:26:19,822 --> 00:26:22,462 Speaker 3: was that they were surprised that his mom in particular 484 00:26:23,142 --> 00:26:26,662 Speaker 3: allowed him back into the home. And I also, during 485 00:26:26,742 --> 00:26:31,062 Speaker 3: my research into the case, tracked down a number of 486 00:26:31,742 --> 00:26:36,662 Speaker 3: victims of greg Utique Davies, who told me of the 487 00:26:36,742 --> 00:26:39,182 Speaker 3: sexual offending that he had been doing for a number 488 00:26:39,222 --> 00:26:43,942 Speaker 3: of years against young girls that he had ready access to, 489 00:26:44,622 --> 00:26:48,702 Speaker 3: and that his mom and a couple of other members 490 00:26:48,702 --> 00:26:52,062 Speaker 3: of the family were aware of that and basically swept 491 00:26:52,062 --> 00:26:54,702 Speaker 3: a out of the carpet and when there was if 492 00:26:54,702 --> 00:26:56,742 Speaker 3: there happened to be a party at the house, then 493 00:26:56,862 --> 00:26:59,422 Speaker 3: they just used to make sure that Gregor kit Davis 494 00:26:59,502 --> 00:27:01,902 Speaker 3: didn't go anywhere near any of the young girls that 495 00:27:01,942 --> 00:27:05,382 Speaker 3: were they And the sad thing is this was both 496 00:27:05,462 --> 00:27:09,862 Speaker 3: before and after Carley was raped and murdered, So had 497 00:27:09,902 --> 00:27:14,142 Speaker 3: the mom and had those other relatives chosen to dub 498 00:27:14,262 --> 00:27:17,902 Speaker 3: him In years earlier, Kelly would be alive, and so 499 00:27:18,062 --> 00:27:21,262 Speaker 3: would John Moss, and so with Mark Maybray, who killed 500 00:27:21,262 --> 00:27:25,622 Speaker 3: themselves because they were treated a suspects. And one of 501 00:27:25,662 --> 00:27:29,022 Speaker 3: the relatives who I interviewed a number of times said 502 00:27:29,022 --> 00:27:31,822 Speaker 3: that Gregor kit Davis's mom had blood on her hands, 503 00:27:31,982 --> 00:27:34,662 Speaker 3: but she was the one that just said, let's keep 504 00:27:34,662 --> 00:27:36,502 Speaker 3: this in the family. We don't want anybody to know 505 00:27:36,542 --> 00:27:39,062 Speaker 3: about this. I spoke of one of the victims who 506 00:27:39,102 --> 00:27:42,262 Speaker 3: said she and three of her friends who'd been sexually 507 00:27:42,262 --> 00:27:45,742 Speaker 3: as supted by him. After the found out about him 508 00:27:45,822 --> 00:27:48,822 Speaker 3: beating the fourteen year old girl and inditionally assaulting her 509 00:27:48,822 --> 00:27:51,222 Speaker 3: on the train, went to their parents and told them. 510 00:27:51,262 --> 00:27:54,262 Speaker 3: The parents took them to the police, and according to them, 511 00:27:54,582 --> 00:27:56,262 Speaker 3: the police talked them about a bit and said, you 512 00:27:56,462 --> 00:27:58,862 Speaker 3: really wanted to go through all of these If we 513 00:27:59,102 --> 00:28:01,702 Speaker 3: charge them, then you'll have to give evidence in court 514 00:28:01,742 --> 00:28:03,862 Speaker 3: and you'll have to relive that awful experience. 515 00:28:04,582 --> 00:28:05,462 Speaker 1: That's devastating. 516 00:28:05,542 --> 00:28:07,662 Speaker 3: The police officer who said that was dead by the 517 00:28:07,662 --> 00:28:09,662 Speaker 3: time I became aware of that, but certainly I was 518 00:28:09,662 --> 00:28:12,422 Speaker 3: spoken to when none umber of relatives of Davies who 519 00:28:12,462 --> 00:28:14,942 Speaker 3: say it was common knowledge within the family what he 520 00:28:15,022 --> 00:28:17,782 Speaker 3: was doing. Look, one of them didn't play a role 521 00:28:17,822 --> 00:28:20,782 Speaker 3: in eventually solving the case. 522 00:28:24,222 --> 00:28:26,702 Speaker 2: After the break, Keith tells us about the development in 523 00:28:26,782 --> 00:28:32,182 Speaker 2: DNA testing that helped solve the case. So this is 524 00:28:32,222 --> 00:28:36,182 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and not long after that thirtieth anniversary you. 525 00:28:36,142 --> 00:28:39,062 Speaker 1: Did a piece. A review of the case was ordered. 526 00:28:39,582 --> 00:28:41,742 Speaker 2: Why was that was that just because of the anniversary 527 00:28:41,742 --> 00:28:43,182 Speaker 2: because it was back in the media. 528 00:28:43,262 --> 00:28:45,462 Speaker 3: Well it was, and it wasn't Julie. It was another 529 00:28:45,502 --> 00:28:49,222 Speaker 3: relative contacted, Boris Buick, who was then the detective in 530 00:28:49,302 --> 00:28:51,462 Speaker 3: charge of the court case squad, and they just Ryan 531 00:28:51,582 --> 00:28:54,182 Speaker 3: and said, look, it's sophirtth anniversary coming up of the 532 00:28:54,262 --> 00:28:58,582 Speaker 3: murder of Carlie. Is anything happening? And he had to say, look, sorry, 533 00:28:58,622 --> 00:29:01,182 Speaker 3: there's been nothing for years. There's nothing new at all. 534 00:29:01,662 --> 00:29:04,502 Speaker 3: But he was so touched by the emotion in this 535 00:29:04,542 --> 00:29:06,982 Speaker 3: person's voice that he made a pledge that he's loot. 536 00:29:07,502 --> 00:29:09,742 Speaker 3: I'll have another look at the case, which basically means 537 00:29:09,742 --> 00:29:11,582 Speaker 3: getting all the foul. I was going through all the 538 00:29:11,582 --> 00:29:16,302 Speaker 3: material and coincidentally, Julie had drung me and said, Keith, 539 00:29:16,342 --> 00:29:18,942 Speaker 3: the thirtieth anniversaries coming up? What'd I do with peace? 540 00:29:19,262 --> 00:29:21,662 Speaker 3: So I'll then ring Boris Buick and say I'll get it. Boris, 541 00:29:21,662 --> 00:29:23,182 Speaker 3: I don't know whether you're away, but the thirty of 542 00:29:23,222 --> 00:29:26,102 Speaker 3: my versaries coming up? Any chance of an interview? And 543 00:29:26,142 --> 00:29:28,782 Speaker 3: he said keep that because all he said, I've had 544 00:29:28,822 --> 00:29:30,942 Speaker 3: a similar phone call and it was from someone else 545 00:29:30,982 --> 00:29:33,022 Speaker 3: other than Julie. So he said, I am going to 546 00:29:33,062 --> 00:29:35,022 Speaker 3: reopen the case and have a fresh look. So that 547 00:29:35,102 --> 00:29:37,222 Speaker 3: gave me the peg to hang it on. So I'll 548 00:29:37,222 --> 00:29:40,342 Speaker 3: go and interview Boris and do a very big piece 549 00:29:40,382 --> 00:29:43,782 Speaker 3: for both the paper and online and again included the 550 00:29:43,822 --> 00:29:47,222 Speaker 3: crime Stoppers number. There were lots of calls and again, 551 00:29:47,622 --> 00:29:51,102 Speaker 3: and I think there was another anonymous call from somebody 552 00:29:51,102 --> 00:29:53,462 Speaker 3: who didn't say it was the brother. But I've since 553 00:29:53,462 --> 00:29:55,422 Speaker 3: found out it was the brother because the brother contacted 554 00:29:55,422 --> 00:29:58,582 Speaker 3: me after Gregor kick David was Chorge and said, Keith, 555 00:29:59,142 --> 00:30:01,102 Speaker 3: when I read your article, I felt I had to 556 00:30:01,182 --> 00:30:03,542 Speaker 3: ring crime Stoppers again, even though I've done it years 557 00:30:03,582 --> 00:30:06,822 Speaker 3: earlier and nothing had happened. So again all he said 558 00:30:07,062 --> 00:30:11,182 Speaker 3: was you should rather Gregori Davis police know that it was 559 00:30:11,182 --> 00:30:14,582 Speaker 3: his brother. They obviously would have gone much quicker because 560 00:30:14,582 --> 00:30:17,822 Speaker 3: it actually took eighteen months or so before they ended 561 00:30:17,862 --> 00:30:21,022 Speaker 3: up knocking on there was his door to ask him 562 00:30:21,182 --> 00:30:25,102 Speaker 3: for his DNA, which was in twenty sixteen. When they 563 00:30:25,102 --> 00:30:27,502 Speaker 3: did knock on the door, they were invited in. He 564 00:30:27,702 --> 00:30:30,502 Speaker 3: was in his seventies. Then he was seventy two, seventy three, 565 00:30:31,022 --> 00:30:33,782 Speaker 3: His wife was ninety he's third wife, and they just said, 566 00:30:33,782 --> 00:30:36,022 Speaker 3: all up, we're having a look at the Calamibian case. 567 00:30:36,062 --> 00:30:38,942 Speaker 3: We're just getting DNA from everybody who was interviewed at 568 00:30:38,942 --> 00:30:41,582 Speaker 3: the time. Can we have your DNA please? And it 569 00:30:41,622 --> 00:30:43,342 Speaker 3: would have been hard for him to say no because 570 00:30:43,342 --> 00:30:46,022 Speaker 3: his wife would have then said, why are you saying no, 571 00:30:46,422 --> 00:30:50,502 Speaker 3: So we actually voluntarily gave his DNA, and as Paul Rowe, 572 00:30:50,502 --> 00:30:52,542 Speaker 3: who was the detective that did it, told me afterwards, 573 00:30:52,542 --> 00:30:55,782 Speaker 3: he said, when we send off those things, if it's 574 00:30:56,022 --> 00:30:59,142 Speaker 3: a negative, you get an email from the forensic scientist. 575 00:30:59,542 --> 00:31:01,662 Speaker 3: If it's a match, they pick up the phone and 576 00:31:01,702 --> 00:31:03,622 Speaker 3: read you because they're just as excited as you or 577 00:31:03,702 --> 00:31:06,622 Speaker 3: And he said he got that phone call saying it's 578 00:31:06,662 --> 00:31:09,822 Speaker 3: a match. So they obviously went out and arrested Gregor 579 00:31:09,942 --> 00:31:13,582 Speaker 3: kith Davis. He initially denied it was him, and then 580 00:31:13,782 --> 00:31:16,222 Speaker 3: when he was faced with all of the evidence, much 581 00:31:16,262 --> 00:31:20,542 Speaker 3: to everyone's surprise, he ended up pleading guilty at the 582 00:31:20,622 --> 00:31:24,302 Speaker 3: middle stage and obviously was then set down to be sentenced. 583 00:31:24,542 --> 00:31:27,182 Speaker 3: And in another all these bizarre twists that keep happening, 584 00:31:27,182 --> 00:31:29,342 Speaker 3: he was just remindedly of another one in that his 585 00:31:29,462 --> 00:31:34,222 Speaker 3: actual sentencing had to be delayed because the day before 586 00:31:34,262 --> 00:31:37,942 Speaker 3: he was due in court, his testicles were scolded because 587 00:31:38,022 --> 00:31:42,422 Speaker 3: some prisoners threw boiling water over him, which is at 588 00:31:42,462 --> 00:31:45,182 Speaker 3: time odded punishment that pedophiles often get in jails. That 589 00:31:45,182 --> 00:31:47,222 Speaker 3: would't give any body ideas, but I think it's fairly 590 00:31:47,222 --> 00:31:49,102 Speaker 3: well known that not only did they usually just throw 591 00:31:49,142 --> 00:31:52,342 Speaker 3: boiling water over the pedophile, but they often pour some 592 00:31:52,422 --> 00:31:55,422 Speaker 3: honey in there as well, which makes it stick. He 593 00:31:55,542 --> 00:31:57,622 Speaker 3: ended up luck he was in hospital. He had burns 594 00:31:57,662 --> 00:32:00,582 Speaker 3: to fifty percent of his body, and Julie Rangman said, 595 00:32:00,942 --> 00:32:02,662 Speaker 3: why have they put it off? I was all ready 596 00:32:02,742 --> 00:32:05,902 Speaker 3: up to go for sentencing, and she was delighted. God 597 00:32:05,942 --> 00:32:07,902 Speaker 3: bless her when I said, the reason that it had 598 00:32:07,942 --> 00:32:11,462 Speaker 3: to be put off is because somebody's poured water. Testical 599 00:32:11,582 --> 00:32:13,622 Speaker 3: was one of the few times I've seen Julie smile 600 00:32:13,702 --> 00:32:15,782 Speaker 3: about anything to do with Gregor kith Davis. 601 00:32:16,302 --> 00:32:19,342 Speaker 2: Fair enough? Did we get any insight? Obviously there was 602 00:32:19,342 --> 00:32:22,022 Speaker 2: no trial, no cross examination, that kind of thing. But 603 00:32:22,262 --> 00:32:26,022 Speaker 2: did we get any insight as to why he did this? 604 00:32:26,142 --> 00:32:28,702 Speaker 2: Was this just a crime of kind of he saw 605 00:32:28,982 --> 00:32:32,062 Speaker 2: Kylie and decided to attack. Do we know anything? 606 00:32:32,582 --> 00:32:35,302 Speaker 3: We don't know much, because he claimed and I certainly 607 00:32:35,342 --> 00:32:37,142 Speaker 3: don't believe him, and neither did the judge, because the 608 00:32:37,222 --> 00:32:40,542 Speaker 3: judge mentioned he says he can't remember when he was 609 00:32:40,542 --> 00:32:42,902 Speaker 3: interviewed by police. He said that he remembered being at 610 00:32:42,902 --> 00:32:46,022 Speaker 3: the Melbourne Cup function, who remembered driving home. He admitted 611 00:32:46,062 --> 00:32:48,822 Speaker 3: that his root home took him directly past the shop 612 00:32:48,862 --> 00:32:52,342 Speaker 3: where Kelly bought the sugar. He claims nothing after that, 613 00:32:52,422 --> 00:32:54,462 Speaker 3: so he never admitted that he picked her up. He 614 00:32:54,542 --> 00:32:58,662 Speaker 3: never admitted having done anything to her. But I interviewed 615 00:32:59,142 --> 00:33:02,142 Speaker 3: his daughter, who I have to call Jill because she 616 00:33:02,142 --> 00:33:04,942 Speaker 3: doesn't want to really amused again. She contacted me after 617 00:33:04,942 --> 00:33:07,582 Speaker 3: I'd written so many stories, and I went in to 618 00:33:07,622 --> 00:33:10,582 Speaker 3: see her and she told me that had done and 619 00:33:10,822 --> 00:33:15,502 Speaker 3: had basically never had any contact with Jill's mom had 620 00:33:15,542 --> 00:33:18,182 Speaker 3: been going out with Gregor Keith Davies for about eighteen 621 00:33:18,182 --> 00:33:21,502 Speaker 3: months when she accidentally felt pregnant. He then disappeared as 622 00:33:21,502 --> 00:33:23,862 Speaker 3: soon as Jill was born, but when she found out 623 00:33:23,902 --> 00:33:25,662 Speaker 3: what he was charged with, she felt she needed to 624 00:33:25,702 --> 00:33:29,262 Speaker 3: confront him, so before he was sentenced, Jill actually went 625 00:33:29,302 --> 00:33:32,862 Speaker 3: into Port Philip on November twenty seventeen, which was exactly 626 00:33:32,902 --> 00:33:36,542 Speaker 3: thirty three years since her father had abducted and raped Carli, 627 00:33:36,862 --> 00:33:39,462 Speaker 3: and she spoke to him about it, and again he 628 00:33:39,582 --> 00:33:42,342 Speaker 3: said the same thing. He said that he couldn't remember 629 00:33:42,342 --> 00:33:45,062 Speaker 3: what happened, you know, So she knew what her father 630 00:33:45,102 --> 00:33:46,942 Speaker 3: had been doing. She did go to see him twice. 631 00:33:46,982 --> 00:33:48,822 Speaker 3: And then ditched him after that, But I think she 632 00:33:48,902 --> 00:33:50,342 Speaker 3: just wanted to look him in the face and try 633 00:33:50,382 --> 00:33:53,102 Speaker 3: and get him to admit it. But she also wanted 634 00:33:53,102 --> 00:33:55,022 Speaker 3: to use the pages of the Herald Son through me 635 00:33:55,222 --> 00:33:59,342 Speaker 3: to make an apology from the family to Julie. Julie 636 00:33:59,422 --> 00:34:02,182 Speaker 3: graciously accepted that, and I put the two of them 637 00:34:02,182 --> 00:34:04,462 Speaker 3: in touch together, and not that the daughter could be 638 00:34:04,502 --> 00:34:07,222 Speaker 3: held in any rerresponsible or can really apologize on behalf 639 00:34:07,262 --> 00:34:09,982 Speaker 3: of her dad, but she did and Julie appreciated her 640 00:34:10,022 --> 00:34:10,382 Speaker 3: doing that. 641 00:34:11,062 --> 00:34:14,462 Speaker 2: Kylie's mum, Julie, did she recognize Davies. 642 00:34:14,142 --> 00:34:17,982 Speaker 3: At all, Well, look, she didn't recognize the name, and 643 00:34:18,022 --> 00:34:20,662 Speaker 3: it wasn't until obviously she knew the name and it 644 00:34:21,302 --> 00:34:24,422 Speaker 3: meant nothing, and I was whether the day he pleaded guilty, 645 00:34:24,502 --> 00:34:27,742 Speaker 3: and at that stage she didn't recognize them. She obviously 646 00:34:27,822 --> 00:34:31,062 Speaker 3: saw mid court and it wasn't until alstot doing research 647 00:34:31,142 --> 00:34:34,102 Speaker 3: for a story to be published after he sentenced, when 648 00:34:34,102 --> 00:34:36,182 Speaker 3: obviously you can see a lot more aboud. Somebody wants 649 00:34:36,222 --> 00:34:38,382 Speaker 3: to be in sentenced and you know there's not going 650 00:34:38,422 --> 00:34:41,782 Speaker 3: to be a trial. And I found out where he 651 00:34:41,982 --> 00:34:45,222 Speaker 3: was living at the time and then worked at how 652 00:34:45,262 --> 00:34:47,822 Speaker 3: close it was to the body and took pictures of 653 00:34:47,862 --> 00:34:51,742 Speaker 3: the house. I went to see Julie and said, oh, look, Julie, 654 00:34:51,742 --> 00:34:54,942 Speaker 3: I'll found out, you know where Kelly was almost certainly held. 655 00:34:55,422 --> 00:34:57,982 Speaker 3: And when I showed her the picture, there was just 656 00:34:57,982 --> 00:35:00,422 Speaker 3: just look on her face and she said, I've been 657 00:35:00,462 --> 00:35:02,342 Speaker 3: to that house. And I said, Julie, what do you 658 00:35:02,382 --> 00:35:05,942 Speaker 3: mean you've been to that house. And it turns out that, 659 00:35:06,182 --> 00:35:07,862 Speaker 3: first of all, she used to do the pamphlets in 660 00:35:07,902 --> 00:35:09,582 Speaker 3: the area when she was a kid. But one of 661 00:35:09,582 --> 00:35:13,422 Speaker 3: her girlfriends knew one of Grego Keith Davis's brothers because 662 00:35:13,422 --> 00:35:16,022 Speaker 3: he was one of eleven kids, and Julie had actually 663 00:35:16,142 --> 00:35:20,422 Speaker 3: been to the house. She doesn't remember ever speaking to Davies, 664 00:35:20,502 --> 00:35:22,822 Speaker 3: but she does remember speaking to the mom. But she 665 00:35:22,902 --> 00:35:25,942 Speaker 3: also then said, and this was before she knew that 666 00:35:26,022 --> 00:35:27,822 Speaker 3: he was a guitar player. She said, one of the 667 00:35:27,862 --> 00:35:30,142 Speaker 3: funny things was often when I went to the house, 668 00:35:30,422 --> 00:35:32,782 Speaker 3: I could hear guitar playing in the background, and I'd 669 00:35:32,782 --> 00:35:34,542 Speaker 3: answered to Julie, that's what he did. He was a 670 00:35:34,582 --> 00:35:39,142 Speaker 3: guitar player. So another bizarre happening is that Julie Maybray 671 00:35:39,182 --> 00:35:41,782 Speaker 3: had been to the house where her daughter was almost 672 00:35:41,782 --> 00:35:43,382 Speaker 3: certainly held and murdered. 673 00:35:44,062 --> 00:35:46,142 Speaker 2: So what did he get How did the sentencing go? 674 00:35:46,782 --> 00:35:49,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, I say the sentence was delayed because of the 675 00:35:49,462 --> 00:35:51,702 Speaker 3: attack on his testicles. But when he finally did get 676 00:35:51,742 --> 00:35:54,462 Speaker 3: the court, he was jailed for life and seventy three 677 00:35:54,502 --> 00:35:57,182 Speaker 3: at the time, So he'll die in jail. No great 678 00:35:57,182 --> 00:35:58,502 Speaker 3: loss to society in my view. 679 00:35:59,022 --> 00:36:04,022 Speaker 2: Any of those other women, want girls who had all 680 00:36:04,022 --> 00:36:07,142 Speaker 2: of those other allegations, did they ever press charges against 681 00:36:07,222 --> 00:36:09,422 Speaker 2: him after the fact, after everything that happened. 682 00:36:09,982 --> 00:36:13,102 Speaker 3: Yes. I got down one of those victims and traveled 683 00:36:13,102 --> 00:36:15,942 Speaker 3: to see her when I was preparing this stuff, and 684 00:36:15,982 --> 00:36:19,182 Speaker 3: she told me that she and a number of people 685 00:36:19,222 --> 00:36:22,782 Speaker 3: that she knew, all young girls, told their parents about 686 00:36:22,822 --> 00:36:25,222 Speaker 3: what he'd done to them, And it wasn't until nineteen 687 00:36:25,302 --> 00:36:28,302 Speaker 3: ninety six when they came forward because of adultspavane and 688 00:36:28,302 --> 00:36:31,542 Speaker 3: there were very young girls when it happened, and Davies 689 00:36:31,742 --> 00:36:35,262 Speaker 3: was actually charged with sexually assaulting the girl I spoke to, 690 00:36:35,342 --> 00:36:38,542 Speaker 3: and five others, and he was jailed in nineteen ninety 691 00:36:38,582 --> 00:36:41,182 Speaker 3: six for two and a half years. So that's obviously 692 00:36:41,182 --> 00:36:44,542 Speaker 3: a long time after Cally had been murdered, But the 693 00:36:44,702 --> 00:36:49,942 Speaker 3: actual offenses took place before and after Cally was murdered, 694 00:36:50,302 --> 00:36:53,582 Speaker 3: and yeah, he got ed after only sixteen months. And 695 00:36:54,022 --> 00:36:55,862 Speaker 3: what she told me at the time was I cried 696 00:36:55,902 --> 00:36:57,622 Speaker 3: that day when I found out he got d after 697 00:36:57,702 --> 00:36:59,422 Speaker 3: just sixteen months. So what he did to me and 698 00:36:59,422 --> 00:37:02,062 Speaker 3: the other child victims, he ruins our lives and goes 699 00:37:02,102 --> 00:37:04,942 Speaker 3: to jail for sixteen months, that's just not right. He 700 00:37:05,062 --> 00:37:07,342 Speaker 3: sexually abused me in five other children. I'd get to 701 00:37:07,342 --> 00:37:10,222 Speaker 3: slap on the wrist. That's not just as it's a job, 702 00:37:10,622 --> 00:37:11,302 Speaker 3: a sick joke. 703 00:37:11,742 --> 00:37:13,622 Speaker 2: Well, he won't be getting out now. He will, as 704 00:37:13,702 --> 00:37:19,502 Speaker 2: you say, die in prison. Did finding Kylie's killer give 705 00:37:19,622 --> 00:37:21,062 Speaker 2: Julie any sense of closure? 706 00:37:21,142 --> 00:37:22,502 Speaker 1: Have you spoken to her since? 707 00:37:23,302 --> 00:37:26,702 Speaker 3: Yes, I have, and look it did I mean, she said, look, 708 00:37:26,902 --> 00:37:29,942 Speaker 3: obviously you can never bring Carlie back. But he was 709 00:37:29,942 --> 00:37:34,582 Speaker 3: actually sentenced today after my birthday, which is also Julie's birthday, 710 00:37:34,982 --> 00:37:38,862 Speaker 3: and I sent reversday Cordon, which I said, let's hope 711 00:37:38,902 --> 00:37:41,102 Speaker 3: that finally there's going to be some justice for Carli, 712 00:37:41,862 --> 00:37:46,022 Speaker 3: And indeed there was, and you know, she was obviously 713 00:37:46,022 --> 00:37:49,782 Speaker 3: happy with the life sentence that he got. But she 714 00:37:49,902 --> 00:37:54,902 Speaker 3: again said, and she then was aware of the brother 715 00:37:55,022 --> 00:37:59,342 Speaker 3: having contact with crime stoppers, not just in twenty fourteen, 716 00:37:59,662 --> 00:38:04,982 Speaker 3: but years earlier, and she just said she was really 717 00:38:05,022 --> 00:38:07,702 Speaker 3: dirty on that brother, even though he did the right 718 00:38:07,702 --> 00:38:11,302 Speaker 3: thing eventually, but also the mother that they just kept it, 719 00:38:11,582 --> 00:38:13,662 Speaker 3: let's keep it in the family. So there was a 720 00:38:13,782 --> 00:38:16,742 Speaker 3: number of people within the family that just didn't want 721 00:38:16,782 --> 00:38:19,222 Speaker 3: it to come out, didn't want the bad publicity, and 722 00:38:19,302 --> 00:38:21,662 Speaker 3: felt that they could handle a situation by trying to 723 00:38:21,702 --> 00:38:25,742 Speaker 3: separate him from having any access to girls. And Julie 724 00:38:25,822 --> 00:38:29,142 Speaker 3: said what the number of the victims said. If only 725 00:38:29,182 --> 00:38:33,342 Speaker 3: somebody haddobbed him in earlier, all of those lives wouldn't 726 00:38:33,342 --> 00:38:36,262 Speaker 3: have been traumatized the way there were. CALLI be alive, 727 00:38:36,342 --> 00:38:39,502 Speaker 3: her grandfather be alive, her uncle be alive, and those 728 00:38:39,542 --> 00:38:41,302 Speaker 3: girls wouldn't have gone through what they went through. 729 00:38:41,822 --> 00:38:45,462 Speaker 2: Lastly, I just wanted to ask you about how this 730 00:38:45,582 --> 00:38:47,622 Speaker 2: case has stayed with you. We obviously heard the emotion 731 00:38:47,702 --> 00:38:52,302 Speaker 2: in your voice talking about Kylie, but to cover a 732 00:38:52,342 --> 00:38:56,662 Speaker 2: story from the very start and in decades down the 733 00:38:56,742 --> 00:39:00,022 Speaker 2: track to find the killer, to see them put behind bars, 734 00:39:00,182 --> 00:39:03,742 Speaker 2: what's it been like for you being so closely involved 735 00:39:03,782 --> 00:39:04,462 Speaker 2: in this case? 736 00:39:05,102 --> 00:39:07,022 Speaker 3: I got was one of the predest days of my 737 00:39:07,182 --> 00:39:09,622 Speaker 3: very long journalistic career. The day I was in court 738 00:39:09,662 --> 00:39:11,942 Speaker 3: with Julie city next to her, and Julie's husband, Bruce 739 00:39:12,062 --> 00:39:14,942 Speaker 3: was there at the time to find that finally Calli 740 00:39:15,222 --> 00:39:18,382 Speaker 3: had got justice. I started off covering the story as 741 00:39:18,382 --> 00:39:23,102 Speaker 3: a reporter, but it's one of only two or three 742 00:39:23,142 --> 00:39:27,342 Speaker 3: cases that I have covered for decades where you don't 743 00:39:27,382 --> 00:39:32,102 Speaker 3: become a reporter to the victim's wife, husband, whatever. I 744 00:39:32,142 --> 00:39:35,302 Speaker 3: became a personal friend of Julie's, and I know she 745 00:39:35,422 --> 00:39:38,222 Speaker 3: relied on me, and she relied on Peter O'Connor, that 746 00:39:38,262 --> 00:39:41,822 Speaker 3: homicide squad detective as well, and I think we helped 747 00:39:41,822 --> 00:39:46,862 Speaker 3: her cope and eventually have a very awarding life and 748 00:39:46,902 --> 00:39:50,702 Speaker 3: meeting a nice husband and Bruce was wonderful. Sadly, Julie 749 00:39:50,742 --> 00:39:53,302 Speaker 3: is no longer with us. In an interview earlier, when 750 00:39:53,302 --> 00:39:55,382 Speaker 3: she found out out Robert Arthur Selby Law wasn't the 751 00:39:55,422 --> 00:39:58,142 Speaker 3: person that did it, she said, Keith, my feur is 752 00:39:58,182 --> 00:40:02,222 Speaker 3: that I'll die before anybody who's been guilty of Calli's murder. 753 00:40:03,222 --> 00:40:05,542 Speaker 3: So at least, and she was very frail by the 754 00:40:05,582 --> 00:40:08,302 Speaker 3: time greg with T. Davies was sentenced to life. She 755 00:40:08,382 --> 00:40:09,342 Speaker 3: died a couple of years later. 756 00:40:09,982 --> 00:40:13,862 Speaker 2: She got like you say, see her daughter's killer put 757 00:40:13,902 --> 00:40:15,302 Speaker 2: behind bas Yeah. 758 00:40:15,342 --> 00:40:18,502 Speaker 3: And the other thing is the wonderful thing about dna 759 00:40:19,022 --> 00:40:21,382 Speaker 3: A shows at the core case they never do give up. 760 00:40:21,542 --> 00:40:24,382 Speaker 3: No case is closed until there's a result. 761 00:40:29,502 --> 00:40:31,782 Speaker 2: Thanks to Keith for helping us to tell this story. 762 00:40:32,302 --> 00:40:35,582 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is a MoMA MEA podcast hosted and 763 00:40:35,582 --> 00:40:38,822 Speaker 2: produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio 764 00:40:38,942 --> 00:40:40,182 Speaker 2: designed by Tom Lyon.