Speaker 1: So you're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Due to circumstances that were completely in my control and
Speaker 3: actually pretty predictable based on my past behavior, I will
Speaker 3: be spiraling for the next week yourself, anyone needs anything,
Speaker 3: I'm God.
Speaker 4: For mother Miya, I'm your host as Shany Dante. Welcome
Speaker 4: to But are you happy? Because no, another personality quiz
Speaker 4: won't fix you?
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Now do you ever get stuck
Speaker 2: thinking about a hypothetical situation that isn't really happening and
Speaker 2: asking yourself a bunch of questions that make you more
Speaker 2: and more stressed, You've probably found yourself in a stress spiral.
Speaker 4: If you've listened to the show before, my voice may
Speaker 4: not be familiar. I'm a mental wellbeing and self development leader.
Speaker 4: I'm Australians fore Lunkan, and I'm constantly on a journey
Speaker 4: of learning more about my culture and my passion. And
Speaker 4: you could say purpose in life right now is all
Speaker 4: around empowering teenage girls and young women.
Speaker 2: And I'm an academic and author. Most recently i published
Speaker 2: a book called The Dopamine Brain. So my whole career
Speaker 2: focus really is about how to help people develop new habits.
Speaker 5: To optimize their mental health.
Speaker 4: We're going to be shifting gears to bring you what
Speaker 4: you told us you wanted, conversations with an expert about
Speaker 4: the things that you are thinking about, working on, struggling through,
Speaker 4: or really.
Speaker 1: Just curious about.
Speaker 4: And that's where you, Doctor Anastasia Heronis, you come into
Speaker 4: the equation.
Speaker 2: We're going to be covering so many relevant topics like
Speaker 2: how to stop dating the wrong person, how to say
Speaker 2: no to the people we love, and how to actually
Speaker 2: quieten down that voice in our head when it's been
Speaker 2: really mean to us.
Speaker 4: In each episode, you'll be getting all of doctor Anastasia's
Speaker 4: wisdom and knowledge, along with her clear takeaways specific guidance
Speaker 4: for how you can apply this information to your lives.
Speaker 1: Right now, as you may.
Speaker 4: Have guessed, we're kicking this season off with a topic
Speaker 4: that we know so many of us can struggle with,
Speaker 4: including myself, anxiety, worry, and getting calling those stress spirals.
Speaker 2: Now, this is something so many of my clients have
Speaker 2: been dealing with lately and you might be two.
Speaker 1: All right, let's jump.
Speaker 4: In, okay, on the stagia. How do we actually know
Speaker 4: if we're anxious? How does it show up?
Speaker 5: Anxiety is a massive topic.
Speaker 2: There's so much for us to talk about here, and
Speaker 2: it really does exist on a spectrum of experiences. It's
Speaker 2: one of the most common things actually that a lot
Speaker 2: of my clients are facing at the moment. And if
Speaker 2: we put this kind of in the context of Aussies
Speaker 2: around the country, about three million Australians actually live with anxiety.
Speaker 2: It's about one in four of us will experience problematic
Speaker 2: anxiety at some point in our lives.
Speaker 4: That's a wild stat and just goes to show how
Speaker 4: common it is. And we'd love to kind of unpack
Speaker 4: anxiety because I feel like it does get a really
Speaker 4: bad rap.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so common.
Speaker 5: Yes, anxiety gets a bad rap.
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel good, right, And none of us like
Speaker 2: to feel anxious, and so it's sort of classified broadly
Speaker 2: as one of these bad emotions, an emotion that we
Speaker 2: want to get rid of. We don't want to feel anxious,
Speaker 2: so how do we get rid of it? But actually, anxiety,
Speaker 2: along with every other emotion serves a really important function
Speaker 2: all emotions. It's important for us to think about them
Speaker 2: as sources of information. They're like data points. They give
Speaker 2: us information about ourselves, about the world, about.
Speaker 5: The environment around us.
Speaker 2: So I think it's crucial for us to be able
Speaker 2: to lean into the information that an emotion actually gives us. Now,
Speaker 2: if we circle back to anxiety specifically, the function of
Speaker 2: anxiety is to essentially be the body's smoke detector and
Speaker 2: smoke alarm, right, So anxiety is giving us the message
Speaker 2: that there might be some sort of danger or threat
Speaker 2: in the environment that we need to be aware of
Speaker 2: and perhaps then do something to protect ourselves.
Speaker 4: It's really great that you're unpacking this because I feel
Speaker 4: like what I'm hearing is anxiety can actually be helpful
Speaker 4: as well at times, which is very different to I
Speaker 4: would say what we naturally have our definition of anxiety.
Speaker 4: We want to shame it, there's a stigma around it,
Speaker 4: we don't want to talk about it, we want to
Speaker 4: push it away. Yet what I'm hearing is it's actually
Speaker 4: giving us more information about, you know, the context of
Speaker 4: the situation that might be playing out. So in saying that, like,
Speaker 4: how do you differentiate between when anxiety is helpful and unhelpful.
Speaker 2: Anxiety will always show up in all of us throughout
Speaker 2: our life, so we can't get rid of it completely.
Speaker 2: So I think this question about helpful versus unhelpful anxiety
Speaker 2: is really important. Unhelpful anxiety is when we experience anxiety
Speaker 2: that's out of context. So let me explain what I
Speaker 2: mean by that. If we experience anxiety in a situation
Speaker 2: that doesn't warrant us to be anxious, that's going to
Speaker 2: be unhelpful for us. So if we're sitting in the
Speaker 2: podcast studio right now talking and all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: a big grizzly bear runs through the studio, we're going to.
Speaker 5: Feel anxious, Right, normal natural emotion.
Speaker 2: We want to feel anxious in that situation because anxiety
Speaker 2: is going to prompt us to get up and run
Speaker 2: out of this place. Right helpful anxiety so unhelpful anxiety
Speaker 2: sends us a message which makes us overestimate the likelihood
Speaker 2: things are going to go wrong. So I think this
Speaker 2: is a great episode for us to be starting with
Speaker 2: and talking about. But to answer your question, how does
Speaker 2: anxiety show up? I'm actually going to use a client
Speaker 2: of mine we're going to call her Catherine, for it's
Speaker 2: not actually her name, but to be anonymous, we'll call
Speaker 2: her Catherine.
Speaker 5: She had to do a lot of public speaking for
Speaker 5: her work and in her role.
Speaker 2: But would get this crippling, overwhelming fear of getting on
Speaker 2: stage and making a full of herself and saying the
Speaker 2: wrong thing. Now, there was no history of her ever
Speaker 2: really doing that. She was generally pretty fine with her
Speaker 2: public speaking, and even if she did kind of get
Speaker 2: on stage and say something a little wrong, it wasn't
Speaker 2: kind of the end of the world. So anxiety makes
Speaker 2: us overestimate that things will go wrong, but it does
Speaker 2: another thing. It also makes us underestimate our ability to
Speaker 2: cope if things do go wrong, because I don't have
Speaker 2: a magic wand to say that Catherine will never get
Speaker 2: on stage and never make a full of herself, right,
Speaker 2: there is a world in which that could happen.
Speaker 5: So there is a chance.
Speaker 2: It's probably a small chance, but there is a chance.
Speaker 2: But anxiety makes us underestimate our ability to cope if
Speaker 2: that happens. So if Catherine got on stage and completely
Speaker 2: forgot what she was meant to be saying in her presentation,
Speaker 2: it would feel pretty crappy, like it wouldn't be a
Speaker 2: nice experience for her. The crowd would probably be like, Oh,
Speaker 2: she's forgot what she's meant to say.
Speaker 5: But in reality, it's a situation she could cope with.
Speaker 2: She'd just walk off, take a breath, grab her notes,
Speaker 2: come back on the stage, keep going.
Speaker 5: Probably no one ever thinks about it again.
Speaker 2: So that's an example of where anxiety can be unhelpful
Speaker 2: for us, because all it was doing was making Catherine
Speaker 2: feel completely overwhelmed and stressed when she didn't really need to.
Speaker 4: I really love this too, because it kind of ties
Speaker 4: back to your statistic that you' named before and how
Speaker 4: common it is. But also what I'm hearing is that
Speaker 4: even though it's common, anxiety can show up in different ways.
Speaker 4: So I like that you're kind of giving us the
Speaker 4: listeners different ideas of what that could potentially look like.
Speaker 2: Yes, And the reason it is so common is because
Speaker 2: from a biological prehistoric perspective, anxiety was crucial for the
Speaker 2: survival of the species. If we remember, it serves evolutionary
Speaker 2: art function to protect us. It's just that nowadays we
Speaker 2: live in a world, in a society, especially if you
Speaker 2: live in here in Australia.
Speaker 5: Where we don't need to.
Speaker 2: Be as alert for threats and dangers, but emotions exist
Speaker 2: in a very primal part of the brain, so we
Speaker 2: feel those emotional experiences much more on the anxiety, much
Speaker 2: more than actually we need to, given how our life
Speaker 2: and society functions these days.
Speaker 4: So what about a stress spiral? Like, what exactly is
Speaker 4: a stress spiral? And how can you tell if you're
Speaker 4: courting one?
Speaker 2: I love this because a stress spiral is not necessarily
Speaker 2: a clinical technical term that I would use, but it
Speaker 2: is definitely a term that many of my clients will
Speaker 2: use right in sort of culture. And when people colloquially
Speaker 2: talk about anxiety, they will talk about being in a
Speaker 2: stress spiral. And so I guess what people are getting
Speaker 2: at is this idea of getting deeper and deeper in
Speaker 2: an experience. Stress again, a normal natural emotion that will
Speaker 2: all ex experience at some point in time when we're
Speaker 2: feeling overwhelmed.
Speaker 5: With some sort of pressure. But what can happen is
Speaker 5: we can get caught further and further in that experience,
Speaker 5: which ultimately makes it more and more intense.
Speaker 4: So does that mean in a way with stress virals?
Speaker 4: Because you mentioned and I hear it all the time.
Speaker 4: It is thrown around a lot in pop culture. So
Speaker 4: what isn't a stress viral?
Speaker 5: Then that's a good alternative question. What isn't a stress viral?
Speaker 2: What isn't a stress viral is when we experience stress
Speaker 2: in a way that meets the expectation of a situation.
Speaker 2: So if I have an impending deadline for work on
Speaker 2: Friday and it's now Thursday and I haven't got it
Speaker 2: almost done, stress is going to naturally come about. And
Speaker 2: stress can actually be a really useful thing in that situation.
Speaker 2: Because I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but
Speaker 2: a little bit of healthy stress helps us get things done.
Speaker 1: Very true can confirm.
Speaker 2: So healthy stress actually motivates us to meet the deadline,
Speaker 2: to get done what we need to do.
Speaker 5: Unhealthy stress debilitates us.
Speaker 4: It's really interesting because I'm hearing some common themes. Even
Speaker 4: with anxiety, what we're hearing is it's helpful and unhelpful.
Speaker 4: But also with stress, it's helpful and also unhelpful.
Speaker 2: So and that goes with all emotions. All emotions can
Speaker 2: be helpful when they fit the context and when we
Speaker 2: experience them in a way that feels manageable, but if
Speaker 2: we experience them too intensely or too much or for
Speaker 2: too long, they can become really debilitating in our lives.
Speaker 4: So is there a difference between anxiety in the body
Speaker 4: as we feel it versus thinking anxious thoughts.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, they're absolutely related.
Speaker 2: They're connected. So our thoughts, our thoughts are very powerful.
Speaker 2: They certainly influence how we feel. So if I'm worrying,
Speaker 2: if I'm going through that anxious thinking process, I'm more
Speaker 2: likely to feel anxiety in the body. But one of
Speaker 2: the things I interestly find in the work that I
Speaker 2: do with clients is that people tend to fall into
Speaker 2: one of two categories. Some people will come into the
Speaker 2: therapy room and they'll be able to describe to me
Speaker 2: in great detail the physical.
Speaker 5: Experience of anxiety.
Speaker 2: So they'll tell me that they get anxious, and they'll say,
Speaker 2: I feel my heart racing, I get sweaty, I feel dizzy,
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm going to faint, my legs feel wobbly,
Speaker 2: and I feel like I can't stand up anymore. So
Speaker 2: they can give me all the details about what it
Speaker 2: physically feels like in their body. Other people can come
Speaker 2: in the room and tell me great details about what
Speaker 2: they're thinking, their thought processes, and the things that they're
Speaker 2: worrying about.
Speaker 5: And ultimately, what we want to help.
Speaker 2: People do is have an awareness of both the thought
Speaker 2: processes that can be quite anxious in nature and the
Speaker 2: physical experience of anxiety in the body.
Speaker 1: So what about a panic attack?
Speaker 2: What exactly is that a panic attack is different to anxiety.
Speaker 2: We could sort of summarize it as a much more
Speaker 2: intense experience of anxiety in and of itself. So a
Speaker 2: panic attack tends to last not more than ten minutes
Speaker 2: on average, And when people experience a panic attack, they
Speaker 2: have this overwhelming physical experience of those anxious sensations, so
Speaker 2: really intense heart racing, sweating, feeling shaky, feeling like they're
Speaker 2: going to faint, And often people actually describe it as
Speaker 2: a feeling where they think they're having a heart attack
Speaker 2: or they think they might be dying. Like it's actually
Speaker 2: quite a scary experience for those who do have panic attacks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like panic attacks. It's something I feel.
Speaker 4: I hear all the time with people who've experienced personally
Speaker 4: or observed someone else that they love going through one,
Speaker 4: and it can be quite confronting in a way.
Speaker 2: And the thing is, often these panic attacks can feel
Speaker 2: like they come out of nowhere. There isn't always a
Speaker 2: clear trigger, So it's not necessarily like, you know, Catherine
Speaker 2: about to go on stage worrying about is she going
Speaker 2: to make a fall out of herself Pete. Someone might
Speaker 2: literally just be sitting in the office and all of
Speaker 2: a sudden they get this onslaught of anxious symptoms and
Speaker 2: they have a panic attack. Sometimes the trigger can be
Speaker 2: outside in the environment, but actually sometimes it can be
Speaker 2: an internal sensation. So for example, if I've had a
Speaker 2: couple of cups of coffee today, maybe a few too
Speaker 2: many cups of coffee, well my heart might be racing
Speaker 2: a little bit faster than it usually would, and that's
Speaker 2: because of the stimulant from the caffeine. But someone who's
Speaker 2: prone to panic attacks might be sitting in the office
Speaker 2: and goof, my heart's racing. Heart racing equals anxiousness and anxiety.
Speaker 2: What's happening in my life right now that I'm anxious about?
Speaker 2: And so then they'll start spiraling down that rabbit hole,
Speaker 2: Whereas it's actually just a physical sensation that they've picked
Speaker 2: up on and honed in on. A bit too much.
Speaker 4: So does that mean, because what I'm hearing panic attacks,
Speaker 4: it's definitely a really big it's a body sensation, it's
Speaker 4: quite sounds quite severe. So then what's the difference between
Speaker 4: just feeling anxiety in your body versus I'm having a
Speaker 4: panic attack.
Speaker 2: I think it comes back to the usefulness of the experience.
Speaker 2: So when someone has a panic attack, it's for those
Speaker 2: ten or so minutes, it's debilitating. It feels like they
Speaker 2: cannot function. People might often have to actually, you know,
Speaker 2: leave the room and excuse themselves, whereas anxiety in and
Speaker 2: of itself might be uncomfortable, but we can still function
Speaker 2: in the world. It can motivate us to take an
Speaker 2: action that's helpful for us.
Speaker 4: So it's a bit like there's a bit of a spectrum,
Speaker 4: but if it's anxiety in the body, there's somewhat more
Speaker 4: control around how you can move through it.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So you've told us a bit about Catherine with
Speaker 4: her fear of public speaking. What are some of the
Speaker 4: other themes you're noticing in your clinical work.
Speaker 2: Anxiety shows up in so many different ways for people.
Speaker 2: But actually, interestingly, one of the recent themes I've seen
Speaker 2: is this anxiousness and worry about big picture kind of
Speaker 2: global events, So things like worrying about wars, worrying about
Speaker 2: climate change, worrying about politics and how politics are going
Speaker 2: to influence the future. And often in these cases they're
Speaker 2: issues that are so big that one person, you know,
Speaker 2: can't necessarily change them. So there's this theme of anxiety
Speaker 2: coming through the clinic room where people are feeling really
Speaker 2: quite overwhelmed and sometimes also a little bit hopeless kind
Speaker 2: of at the state of affairs in the world at
Speaker 2: the moment. So that's one thing I've seen more of,
Speaker 2: particularly with climate change. Young people are really worried about
Speaker 2: and wanting to talk about climate change at the moment.
Speaker 2: But another one is cost of living. Things have become
Speaker 2: so expensive at the moment. We're certainly in a cost
Speaker 2: of living crisis, and that can range from people worrying
Speaker 2: about how they're going to, you know, afford to buy
Speaker 2: a house one day in the future if that's one
Speaker 2: of their goals, all the way down to do I
Speaker 2: have enough money to buy groceries this week?
Speaker 4: I mean, the cost of living example is so relatable
Speaker 4: and I think even for me personally, once I left
Speaker 4: high school, I went straight into you know, university and
Speaker 4: then went down that traditional path. But then I decided
Speaker 4: to get into the startup world, so I started the
Speaker 4: flourished journey, which I'm so incredibly proud of. But in
Speaker 4: saying that, you know, startup life, you don't really have
Speaker 4: a very stable income, which means you can't really secure
Speaker 4: alone for a home, and to be honest, when you're
Speaker 4: in your early twenties, you don't really think about those things.
Speaker 4: You think that, oh, that's a ten year problem. But
Speaker 4: fast forward, you know, I'm thirty three. Now it feels
Speaker 4: like society tells you, oh, you need to have a
Speaker 4: house and have all the things set up.
Speaker 1: By thirty and that weighs on me.
Speaker 4: I feel like I feel like I am behind, even
Speaker 4: though it's so easy to look at the highlight reels
Speaker 4: on Instagram and know that it is the highlight reels,
Speaker 4: but you still get sucked into it. So it's definitely
Speaker 4: something that weighs on me. I'm not sure if that's
Speaker 4: something you can relate to as well.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, this idea of kind of financially where we should
Speaker 2: be at any point in our life and how much
Speaker 2: we should have saved or what we should have done
Speaker 2: with that money is, you know, something I can relate
Speaker 2: to as well.
Speaker 5: But as I said, like a lot of people, a
Speaker 5: lot of younger people are kind of thinking about this
Speaker 5: and worrying about it as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of shame around
Speaker 4: talking about money, right, and so often we feel like
Speaker 4: we're alone in it, or we feel like we're we're
Speaker 4: the poorest friend out of everyone.
Speaker 2: And the stats speak to the opposite, right, So so
Speaker 2: many people are actually struggling financially. And I was actually
Speaker 2: looking at a report that came out last year from
Speaker 2: Mission Australia and it surveyed almost twenty thousand people and
Speaker 2: a particularly young cohort, right, So these were fifteen to
Speaker 2: nineteen year old, and what they found is that fifty
Speaker 2: five percent, so more than half, were significantly worried about
Speaker 2: and had anxiety about their financial security. And I was
Speaker 2: just blown away when I read that, because I was like,
Speaker 2: fifteen to nineteen year old, like we should be worried
Speaker 2: about fifteen is like you know, the fight that you've
Speaker 2: had with your friends at school and like you're going
Speaker 2: to sit with at lunch and maybe studying for tests,
Speaker 2: not financial security for your future.
Speaker 4: After this short break, duck down a stage is going
Speaker 4: to teach you the five minute method to help you
Speaker 4: break out of an anxiety spiral and stop an anxiety
Speaker 4: attack in its tracks. At Asasia, I want to ask
Speaker 4: you for two techniques today. First, I want you to
Speaker 4: tell us what we can do for ourselves when we
Speaker 4: find ourselves spirally and what should we do for someone else.
Speaker 1: Let's start with ourselves.
Speaker 2: So the technique and the strategies that I'm going to
Speaker 2: give you today are based on a type of therapy
Speaker 2: called cognitive behavior therapy or CBT for short, and it
Speaker 2: has the evidence behind it. It's sort of the gold
Speaker 2: standard therapeutic approach that we would use for someone who
Speaker 2: is experiencing anxiety.
Speaker 5: It's what I used with Catherine when.
Speaker 2: She was worried about getting on stage and doing her
Speaker 2: public speaking. So what I first recommends to people, and this.
Speaker 5: Is going to sound really basic, but.
Speaker 2: Bear with me, is stop as a first step. Just stop,
Speaker 2: take a moment, take a breath, take a pause. For
Speaker 2: us to be able to do kind of anything effective
Speaker 2: for ourselves, we first need to be able to just
Speaker 2: stop and take.
Speaker 5: A breath and ground ourselves in the moment.
Speaker 4: It's really interesting because it can sound really basic, but
Speaker 4: also it can be really hard when you're in it
Speaker 4: so deeply.
Speaker 1: It's hard to stop.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and so I say to people, just like physically, stop,
Speaker 2: don't take another step, don't say another word, you know, metaphorically,
Speaker 2: even if you're sort of in a situation where you
Speaker 2: are in a meeting at work or something, imagine yourself stopping,
Speaker 2: but just kind of take that moment, take that pause,
Speaker 2: take that breath, because once we've done that, we're in
Speaker 2: a better position to help ourselves through the next few steps.
Speaker 5: So once we've stopped, we want.
Speaker 2: To take a moment to think about our thinking, reflect
Speaker 2: on our thoughts, actually notice what our brain and our
Speaker 2: mind is telling us. We were saying earlier that the
Speaker 2: mind is so powerful, our thoughts are so powerful, and
Speaker 2: they certainly influence us to feel particular ways. But not
Speaker 2: everything that we think, well, not everything that we tell
Speaker 2: ourselves is actually true.
Speaker 5: We all engage in unhelpful patterns of thinking.
Speaker 2: We might catastrophize, we might be quite black and white
Speaker 2: now thinking, we might just jump to conclusions. We do
Speaker 2: all these sort of thought patterns quite naturally, but they
Speaker 2: can actually be really unhelpful for us. So if I
Speaker 2: circle back to Catherine, as I was saying, she would
Speaker 2: be very fearful of getting on stage, and her brain
Speaker 2: would be telling her, you're going to make a full
Speaker 2: of yourself, you're gonna stuff up, you're gonna forget what
Speaker 2: you have to talk about, and then you'll have to
Speaker 2: run off stage and everyone will be talking about it.
Speaker 5: For the next two weeks at work. So she was
Speaker 5: telling herself all these unhelpful things that probably weren't actually
Speaker 5: going to happen, and weren't very true, and weren't based
Speaker 5: on any kind of history of that actually happening to her.
Speaker 2: So it's really important for us to be able to
Speaker 2: identify what is my brain actually telling me, so that
Speaker 2: I can then examine A is it true and.
Speaker 5: B is it helpful?
Speaker 4: I really like that moment of pause, and essentially we're
Speaker 4: kind of zooming out to see what are we thinking
Speaker 4: and if it is helpful or not helpful.
Speaker 1: And I find even journaling.
Speaker 4: Journaling is such a great way to actually put it
Speaker 4: down on paper and then getting to the bottom of it.
Speaker 4: I know, for me, there's been times where I just
Speaker 4: look at the things that I'm actually thinking about and
Speaker 4: I can't help but kind of giggle to myself, being like,
Speaker 4: this is actually ridiculous. I would never say this to
Speaker 4: anyone else, but you know, we're all our own worst
Speaker 4: in a critic.
Speaker 2: So I love the journaling because actually seeing those words
Speaker 2: that we're internally saying to ourselves on paper, we put
Speaker 2: that distance between ourselves and the thoughts and so we
Speaker 2: can see it with a bit more clarity. So once
Speaker 2: we've stopped, we've reflected on our thoughts, we've identified that
Speaker 2: maybe they're not that true or that helpful for the
Speaker 2: situation that we're in. I then encourage people to ask themselves,
Speaker 2: what about this situation is in your control and what's
Speaker 2: out of your control? Because once we can identify what
Speaker 2: is within our control, we can make active steps to
Speaker 2: have agency over that and change the thing that's in
Speaker 2: our control. Sometimes we get stuck being so anxious about
Speaker 2: things that are ultimately out of our control that we
Speaker 2: can't change, and that's really where worry becomes quite unhelpful
Speaker 2: for us.
Speaker 5: So if we can focus.
Speaker 2: On what's in our control, we can take steps to
Speaker 2: action that and create some change for ourselves.
Speaker 4: So what happens if you're too deep in the spiral,
Speaker 4: and you know the strategies you've just mentioned doesn't actually work.
Speaker 5: What do we do?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 2: This is great because it's all well and good for
Speaker 2: us to be able to think about our thinking, But
Speaker 2: if we're in a state of panic and distress and
Speaker 2: complete overwhelm, that's actually a really hard thing to do.
Speaker 2: So if we're at that eight, nine, ten out of
Speaker 2: ten level of anxiety, I actually recommend that people instead
Speaker 2: utilize the senses.
Speaker 5: Right, So there's two different ways we can do this.
Speaker 5: One is going.
Speaker 2: Down a pathway of what we call self soothing. So
Speaker 2: this is using the sensors in a way that's really
Speaker 2: comforting and nice and kind to help bring down that
Speaker 2: level of stress and anxiety to a level that feels
Speaker 2: more manageable. So if we think across the sensors, these
Speaker 2: might be things like lighting a scented candle, smelling some incense,
Speaker 2: eating something that tastes really lovely or nostalgic, you know,
Speaker 2: sipping on a hot cup of tea or oha. So
Speaker 2: utilizing the senses in a way that's calming for the body.
Speaker 5: And people tend to have sensory preferences, so for.
Speaker 2: Me, I love touch. If I don't feel good. My
Speaker 2: go to is it doesn't matter how hot it is,
Speaker 2: put on a jumper. I find it, like, you know,
Speaker 2: having a bit of a hug. Put on the jumper,
Speaker 2: it's really comforting. Get under the douna, anything that sort
Speaker 2: of is touching my skin is really calming and soothing
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 5: I don't know a shanny. If you've got sensory preferences.
Speaker 4: I feel like, I mean outside of the matcha as well,
Speaker 4: like food taste is really good, but also the senses
Speaker 4: so dim lighting.
Speaker 1: It's just so calming.
Speaker 4: It feels like I'm in a spa, but I'm at
Speaker 4: home with my fairy lights on.
Speaker 2: So yes, So the self soothing can be really effective
Speaker 2: when we can't think our way out of anxiety, but
Speaker 2: we want to physically do something to help regulate our anxiety.
Speaker 5: Self soothing is great.
Speaker 2: The other option that utilizes the sensors is a more
Speaker 2: intense version of using the sensors, and this provides a
Speaker 2: bit of a shock to the system. So if there
Speaker 2: is one strategy I could give someone to help manage
Speaker 2: their anxiety when it's at that ten out of ten peak,
Speaker 2: it's utilizing cold cold water, really frozen ice packs from
Speaker 2: the freezer, a bag of frozen peas, whatever you've got
Speaker 2: that's cold. It is incredibly effective on a physiological level
Speaker 2: for reregulating our body. One of the things we try
Speaker 2: to do is actually mimic what we call the deep
Speaker 2: dive reflex. So this is something that all mammals actually have,
Speaker 2: and it's ultimately this idea that if you jumped into
Speaker 2: a swimming pool full of cold water, you would naturally
Speaker 2: hold your breath, Your blood pressure changes, your heart rate changes,
Speaker 2: and this all happens because your body wants to conserve energy.
Speaker 5: And we can mimic this to our advantage.
Speaker 2: So I encourage people if they're feeling really overwhelmed, jump
Speaker 2: in a cold shower.
Speaker 5: It doesn't feel pleasant, it takes a.
Speaker 2: Bit, it gots to get in there sometimes unless you're
Speaker 2: someone who regularly does cold plunges. But it can be
Speaker 2: hard but incredibly effective. If you imagine yourself ten out
Speaker 2: of ten anxiety, you know, hot, flush, heart racing, sweating, dizzy,
Speaker 2: and you jumped in a cold swimming pool or a
Speaker 2: cold shower, you would pretty quickly physically feel a fair
Speaker 2: bit better. Doesn't solve the problem of what's causing the anxiety,
Speaker 2: but physically it helps reregulate us so that we're in
Speaker 2: a better position to be able to manage the anxious
Speaker 2: situation that we're faced with. If you can't jump in
Speaker 2: the cold shower, I say, get the ice packs out
Speaker 2: of the freezer. Bag of frozen peas you've got that's
Speaker 2: cold in the freezer, and put it over your head
Speaker 2: and temples and around the eyes. This is the really
Speaker 2: kind of effective place we want to place the frozen object.
Speaker 5: But also if you're out and about and you don't.
Speaker 2: Have a freezer bag or a cold shower handy, get
Speaker 2: into woolies, go into the freezer aisle, open that door
Speaker 2: and feel the blast of the colds.
Speaker 5: If you're in the.
Speaker 2: Car, turn on the air con, blast it into your
Speaker 2: face your face.
Speaker 5: Is really effective for trying to regulate with the cold.
Speaker 5: So it's my go to tip.
Speaker 4: Wow, you know, I'm so surprised that cold actually helps
Speaker 4: because I know how much it can make me stress,
Speaker 4: Like I assumed that it would spike my cortisol levels.
Speaker 4: And yeah, I'm just glad that there's two options here.
Speaker 4: I'm going to take the soothing route. Not sure, I
Speaker 4: don't know, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: About the cold therapy, but.
Speaker 2: The stress is probably more before you're actually, yeah, my thoughts,
Speaker 2: that's the anxiety.
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, it's all clear.
Speaker 4: We're getting the breakthroughs here.
Speaker 1: This is great.
Speaker 4: So what if none of the techniques that you've talked
Speaker 4: about still isn't working and someone stealing really deep emotional pain.
Speaker 4: Is that when they should seek a psychologist or a
Speaker 4: professional to get medication.
Speaker 2: Potentially, if people feel like therapy and these kinds of
Speaker 2: strategies aren't working for them, that's definitely a situation where
Speaker 2: we would encourage someone to go talk to either a
Speaker 2: GP or a psychiatrist. Both can prescribe medications to be
Speaker 2: able to talk through what the different options are. There
Speaker 2: are so many different medications when it comes to managing
Speaker 2: anxiety and our mental health that it is really important
Speaker 2: to see a professional to talk through what the different
Speaker 2: options are. But what I would say is that medication
Speaker 2: can be incredibly helpful, but is best when it's done
Speaker 2: in conjunction with therapy because often what we find is
Speaker 2: that if people just go on medication for a period
Speaker 2: of time, when they eventually decide to come off it,
Speaker 2: if they haven't addressed what the underlying concerns and issues are,
Speaker 2: they're probably very quickly going to.
Speaker 5: Go back to feeling anxious.
Speaker 2: So the therapy and the medication hand in hand can
Speaker 2: be a fantastic combination for people.
Speaker 4: So you've just shared with us some really great techniques
Speaker 4: around how to manage anxiety and panic attacks for ourselves,
Speaker 4: But what about someone else?
Speaker 2: If we're trying to help someone else who is feeling
Speaker 2: anxious and overwhelmed, the first thing I would recommend is
Speaker 2: don't panic yourself. Don't take on that other person's anxiety
Speaker 2: and panic and feel anxious or panicky yourself.
Speaker 5: Stay calm and stay with them.
Speaker 2: What I mean by stay with them is yes, physically
Speaker 2: stay with them, but emotionally stay with them.
Speaker 5: Attune to what they're feeling, Listen to them, hear them,
Speaker 5: validate them.
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to feel heard in life, and so often
Speaker 2: it's the case that if someone's worried about something, want
Speaker 2: to jump in with a fix totally.
Speaker 5: We want to say.
Speaker 2: Don't worry, everything will be fine, and probably never in
Speaker 2: the history of someone feeling anxious as that actually helps.
Speaker 2: Like if you say don't worry, everything's going to be okay,
Speaker 2: the person doesn't walk away being like, uh, okay, great, Right,
Speaker 2: if we feel overwhelmed and anxious, we want to feel heard,
Speaker 2: we want.
Speaker 5: To feel understood.
Speaker 2: So that's sometimes the biggest thing that we can give people,
Speaker 2: being there with them physically, but emotionally, being with them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so it's so hard to do sometimes, I feel,
Speaker 4: especially with women, we're so empathetic and when someone we
Speaker 4: love that is struggling, it's easy to just subconsciously.
Speaker 1: Take that on.
Speaker 4: And I really like that you're helping us to separate
Speaker 4: ourselves being like it has nothing to do about you
Speaker 4: or how you showed up. It's purely what does that
Speaker 4: person need right now? Really focusing on that person and
Speaker 4: being there for them, attuning to them. So once we've
Speaker 4: done that, the next thing is moving into helping them
Speaker 4: through it. Right, But we don't want to assume that
Speaker 4: we know what that person wants or needs, right Ask them,
Speaker 4: Ask them if there's anything that they know that's helpful
Speaker 4: for them in these moments. They might be able to
Speaker 4: say to you, yeah, you know what, I just need
Speaker 4: you to talk to me about something else. Just distract me,
Speaker 4: tell me what you've been watching on TV lately, Like,
Speaker 4: let's just have a conversation about something else to get
Speaker 4: me through this. So people are often well resourced at
Speaker 4: knowing what they need, and.
Speaker 5: That's where we can jump in and help give that
Speaker 5: to them.
Speaker 2: If, however, someone doesn't know what they need in that moment,
Speaker 2: if we ask them and they're not able to tell us,
Speaker 2: that's where we can offer some suggestions and some solutions.
Speaker 2: And sometimes the simplest one is actually us helping someone
Speaker 2: get out of the space that they're in and just
Speaker 2: going outside, taking a break, grabbing a cup of coffee, moving,
Speaker 2: moving the body, and moving out of their physical surroundings
Speaker 2: and space in that moment.
Speaker 4: Okay, Anastasia, Because I'm someone that is always about having
Speaker 4: to growth by It's so next time I'm going to
Speaker 4: woolies or calls, I've got to go into the freezer aisle,
Speaker 4: grab those frozen peas and stuck up by freezer just
Speaker 4: for you.
Speaker 1: I'll report back on how it goes.
Speaker 4: After this short break, Anastasia is going to solve the
Speaker 4: personal problem that one of you, our listeners sent us.
Speaker 1: Stay with us, Bib hereb Bib.
Speaker 5: I'm having a serious Cristis BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 4: Okay, I am really excited to debut this segment, which
Speaker 4: will be bringing you in every episode of But Are
Speaker 4: You Happy? This is where we respond to the dilemmas
Speaker 4: or questions that you our listeners have sent us, and
Speaker 4: Anastasia will provide her best advice. Our first dilemma comes
Speaker 4: from Sydney.
Speaker 6: So I'm in my late twenties and I feel like
Speaker 6: every conversation I have with my friends lately is honestly
Speaker 6: is such a drainer, because all they ever want to
Speaker 6: talk about is whether I'm wan they're going to buy property,
Speaker 6: whether or not to pro create, or whether or not
Speaker 6: to get married, And honestly, I just don't really care
Speaker 6: about any of those things. But for whatever reason, there's
Speaker 6: still this weird pressure when you get to your late
Speaker 6: twenties where you feel like you're in the panic years
Speaker 6: and you do need to make all of these big
Speaker 6: decisions that are going to set you up for like
Speaker 6: the next ten years or more. Maybe what can I
Speaker 6: do to feel like I can live the fun life
Speaker 6: that I want to live, but also set myself up
Speaker 6: the future and not feel stressed about what's around the corner.
Speaker 5: You are not alone in this.
Speaker 2: I've heard many people share similar stories about things that
Speaker 2: they're worrying about.
Speaker 5: This idea of how do I have the life I
Speaker 5: want now?
Speaker 2: How do I have the fun that I want now
Speaker 2: and set myself up for the future as well? And
Speaker 2: I wish I could waive the magic wand and give
Speaker 2: a really short, simple solution to this, but unfortunately it's
Speaker 2: not that simple. It's all about balance, right, And as humans,
Speaker 2: we have a tendency to want to fund find a
Speaker 2: single answer to a problem.
Speaker 5: But in reality, I don't think there is a simple
Speaker 5: answer here. Life is complex.
Speaker 2: We are complex, and so it's always about how do
Speaker 2: we find balance between the fun and the enjoyment in
Speaker 2: the short term with balancing those long term goals that.
Speaker 5: We might have now.
Speaker 2: If you're worried about making decisions that you might regret
Speaker 2: in the future, i'd encourage you to reflect.
Speaker 5: On what your values are. So we all have values.
Speaker 5: We might not always be aware.
Speaker 2: Of them, so it's important to take some time out
Speaker 2: to actually reflect on what our values are. But essentially,
Speaker 2: values are the things that are most important to us
Speaker 2: in life. We can think of them as like a compass,
Speaker 2: a compass that directs us down a particular path in life,
Speaker 2: and from those values, we can set goals and tasks
Speaker 2: and activities for ourselves that feel really meaningful and values aligned.
Speaker 2: The research tells us that when people live their life
Speaker 2: in alignment with their values, they have greater overall life
Speaker 2: satisfaction and contentment. So being able to reflect on those
Speaker 2: values can be a really key part of helping us
Speaker 2: make decisions for ourselves. And having that clarity around values
Speaker 2: can help us with making decisions about some of these
Speaker 2: things that feel really big in life, you know, should
Speaker 2: I have kids, should I buy a house, what should
Speaker 2: I be planning for in my thirties, etc. Having a
Speaker 2: knowledge of our values can help us make those decisions
Speaker 2: that can sometimes feel really overwhelming, and also help us
Speaker 2: reflect on are those values my own or I think
Speaker 2: what society has told me, you know, should be important
Speaker 2: to me because that will influence our decision making as well.
Speaker 5: Is it that society has told.
Speaker 2: Me that owning a home, or having kids or being
Speaker 2: at this point in my career.
Speaker 5: Should be important to me? Or is that actually what
Speaker 5: my values are?
Speaker 4: I really love it because it's essentially doing your values
Speaker 4: is getting to know yourself even more, which is important
Speaker 4: and for.
Speaker 2: Any of the listeners out there, if you haven't ever
Speaker 2: done this values reflection, have a go, get out a
Speaker 2: pen and a paper, sit down at a desk and
Speaker 2: just write out a list of the things that are
Speaker 2: important to you. Write single words, right, So values are
Speaker 2: things like family, health, adventure, creativity, honesty. Right, so there's
Speaker 2: single words. It's not like I value having a coffee
Speaker 2: in the morning. What is it that the coffee in
Speaker 2: the morning gives me? It's my moment of peace? I
Speaker 2: value piece, I value enjoyment in life. You know what
Speaker 2: is it that that thing gives me? What's the value
Speaker 2: underneath it?
Speaker 5: Write them out.
Speaker 4: I really love that process because it's helping us to
Speaker 4: look at Okay, what are the things that I essentially
Speaker 4: love doing and what are the things that.
Speaker 1: I hate doing?
Speaker 4: And then underneath that is where we'll discover our values.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And then for any of the listeners who want
Speaker 2: to take it one step further, I'm giving a lot
Speaker 2: of homework here, but reflect on am I actually living
Speaker 2: my life aligned with these values? So, for example, if
Speaker 2: I have the value of creativity, Okay, it's all well
Speaker 2: and good to know that I value creativity, But am
Speaker 2: I doing anything creative in my life? Because having the
Speaker 2: value doesn't necessarily mean that we're living out the value.
Speaker 2: So if you can identify any mismatch, that's a really
Speaker 2: great place where you can make some positive, healthy changes
Speaker 2: for yourself.
Speaker 4: So if we have clarity around our values, would that
Speaker 4: reduce our anxiety?
Speaker 5: It absolutely can. If we know what our values are,
Speaker 5: we feel better equipped to make decisions in life.
Speaker 2: And so often, you know, anxiety can come from that
Speaker 2: feeling of being overwhelmed like Courtney was, with what she
Speaker 2: should do in life and how she should live life.
Speaker 2: So knowing our values can absolutely help us reduce anxiety
Speaker 2: and feel more kind of satisfaction and can in life.
Speaker 4: All right, everyone, let's get into our homework. Let's get
Speaker 4: our values done.
Speaker 1: Atastasia.
Speaker 4: We have covered a lot of ground in today's episode.
Speaker 1: Can you give us a recap?
Speaker 4: We want the post it note on the bathroom mirror
Speaker 4: reminders please absolutely?
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 2: First up, anxiety serves a necessary function in the brain
Speaker 2: and body. Second, sometimes anxiety can get a bit too intense,
Speaker 2: or a situation doesn't warrant us to be anxious. Third,
Speaker 2: if that's the case, we can mentally talk ourselves through
Speaker 2: the situation by challenging those catastrophic thoughts. And finally, if
Speaker 2: it feels too physically overwhelming, soothe yourself using the sensors
Speaker 2: or jump in that cold shower.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Anastasia.
Speaker 4: Guys, Next week we will be tackling the right way
Speaker 4: to say no to people you love and really dig
Speaker 4: into the ways that we can help ourselves deal with
Speaker 4: toxic family dynamics and relationships.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you have any burnie.
Speaker 4: Questions or want to share your story with us, please
Speaker 4: get in contact with us.
Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you.
Speaker 4: There are a few ways to get in touch, follow
Speaker 4: the links in the show.
Speaker 2: Notes, and remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast
Speaker 2: isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we
Speaker 2: present here should always take into account your personal medical history.
Speaker 2: The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.
Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 5: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1: I'm a Shany Dante and I'm.
Speaker 5: Doctor Anatheja Hornus.
Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Around the topics we discussed today, you can also reach
Speaker 2: out to organizations Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting
Speaker 2: more immediate support.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.