WEBVTT - William Tyrrell: Is This The Breakthrough We've Been Waiting For? 0:00:06.552 --> 0:00:10.112 True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 0:00:10.152 --> 0:00:15.951 waters that this podcast was recorded on. This Sunday, May 0:00:15.992 --> 0:00:20.432 twenty five is International Missing Children's Day. While thousands of 0:00:20.432 --> 0:00:23.192 Ozzie kids do go missing every year, most of them 0:00:23.192 --> 0:00:26.752 are found, but not all of them. On a warm 0:00:26.912 --> 0:00:30.312 Friday morning in September twenty fourteen, three year old William 0:00:30.352 --> 0:00:32.512 Tyrrel was playing with his five year old sister in 0:00:32.512 --> 0:00:34.992 the front yard of his foster grandma's home in Kendall, 0:00:35.512 --> 0:00:38.272 a quiet rural town on the New South Wales Mid 0:00:38.272 --> 0:00:41.031 North Coast. It's about a four hour drive from Sydney, 0:00:41.031 --> 0:00:44.471 where William and his foster family lived. They're driven up 0:00:44.471 --> 0:00:47.232 the night before, stopping at a Macca's halfway point for 0:00:47.272 --> 0:00:50.391 a treat and a break before continuing on to visit Grandma. 0:00:50.952 --> 0:00:53.391 She'd placed the Kendal property on the market, so their 0:00:53.431 --> 0:00:56.872 time to spend in this idellic rural setting was running out. 0:00:57.952 --> 0:01:02.392 William is wearing his favorite outfit, a red and blue 0:01:02.472 --> 0:01:05.912 Spider Man suit. His foster mom had argued with him 0:01:05.952 --> 0:01:08.752 earlier about what to wear underneath it. Kids being kids, 0:01:08.952 --> 0:01:11.512 She'd had to negotiate a Spider Man T shirt in 0:01:11.551 --> 0:01:13.911 place of the singlet that she wanted him to wear to. 0:01:13.911 --> 0:01:14.752 Keep him warm enough. 0:01:15.752 --> 0:01:20.632 William was having fun running around the verandah, roaring and giggling, 0:01:21.072 --> 0:01:24.752 full of energy and imagination. His foster mother and foster 0:01:24.792 --> 0:01:28.191 grandmother sat nearby, sipping tea and watching the kids play, 0:01:28.831 --> 0:01:31.872 smiling as they listened to the sound of William's playful 0:01:31.952 --> 0:01:36.191 growls in his sister's laughter echoing across the yard. At 0:01:36.191 --> 0:01:39.032 one point, William ran around the side of the house 0:01:39.271 --> 0:01:41.952 as his foster mother headed inside to make another cup 0:01:41.992 --> 0:01:48.832 of tea, and then the roaring stops. She pauses, waiting 0:01:48.872 --> 0:01:52.112 for the next laugh or shout, but it doesn't come. 0:01:53.272 --> 0:01:55.872 She calls out his name. Nothing. 0:01:57.032 --> 0:02:01.272 What started as a normal childhood game quickly turns into 0:02:01.272 --> 0:02:05.552 something else. She checks the yard, no sign of him 0:02:05.912 --> 0:02:11.952 inside the house. Still nothing. Minutes pass then more, her 0:02:12.112 --> 0:02:16.232 heart is racing. Her voice gets louder, William, where are you. 0:02:17.632 --> 0:02:21.912 When William's foster father arrives home, the search is already underway. 0:02:22.432 --> 0:02:25.312 He starts knocking on neighbor's doors, asking if anyone's seen 0:02:25.312 --> 0:02:28.312 the little boy in the Spider Man suit. After about 0:02:28.352 --> 0:02:31.792 thirty minutes of searching, they call the police. A call 0:02:31.872 --> 0:02:34.912 that would later be scrutinized, as so many women in 0:02:34.952 --> 0:02:38.512 situations like this are. Did she sound panicked enough for 0:02:39.032 --> 0:02:40.192 did she sound too calm? 0:02:40.712 --> 0:02:42.992 Officers arrive, Locals. 0:02:42.592 --> 0:02:46.792 Join in, Dozens, eventually hundreds of volunteers comb through the 0:02:46.832 --> 0:02:51.592 surrounding bushland. But there's no trace of William, not that day, 0:02:52.512 --> 0:02:57.912 not in the days that followed. One moment he was there, roaring, laughing, running, 0:02:58.752 --> 0:03:09.792 the next it was just gone. I'm Claire Murphy and 0:03:09.872 --> 0:03:13.792 this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's 0:03:13.832 --> 0:03:17.152 most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know 0:03:17.312 --> 0:03:20.592 the most about them. Now, it's important to note that 0:03:20.672 --> 0:03:24.952 the identities of William Tirel's biological and foster families are 0:03:25.032 --> 0:03:28.112 legally concealed. It's due to strict a strain in laws 0:03:28.112 --> 0:03:30.552 that protect the privacy of children in foster care and 0:03:30.592 --> 0:03:33.592 their caregivers, and that there are also some aspects of 0:03:33.632 --> 0:03:36.552 this case that we are legally bound not to discuss. 0:03:37.312 --> 0:03:39.712 We also need to make it very clear that at 0:03:39.752 --> 0:03:42.712 this point in time, no one has been charged with 0:03:42.832 --> 0:03:45.712 either the abduction or murder of William Tyrrel, that the 0:03:45.752 --> 0:03:49.472 investigation is ongoing, and that everyone connected to this story 0:03:49.552 --> 0:03:53.472 at this time is innocent until proven guilty. Those who 0:03:53.552 --> 0:03:56.592 have been accused maintained that they had nothing to do 0:03:56.672 --> 0:04:01.712 with his disappearance. William Tyrrel's start to life wasn't smooth sailing. 0:04:02.152 --> 0:04:04.672 He was born into a household with parents who loved 0:04:04.712 --> 0:04:08.032 him fiercely, but who issues of their own. They struggled 0:04:08.072 --> 0:04:10.992 with drug abuse and violence, and it was those issues 0:04:10.992 --> 0:04:13.752 that would lead to the state taking William into their care, 0:04:14.112 --> 0:04:17.752 into another fiercely loving family, but who also had to 0:04:17.832 --> 0:04:21.712 navigate the system that officially speaks for their son. When 0:04:21.752 --> 0:04:24.912 William vanished on the morning of September twelve, twenty fourteen, 0:04:25.432 --> 0:04:28.712 we weren't initially allowed to even know that William was 0:04:28.752 --> 0:04:29.432 being fostered. 0:04:29.752 --> 0:04:31.152 Police said they didn't want it. 0:04:31.072 --> 0:04:33.952 To interfere in their investigation, but it would set a 0:04:33.992 --> 0:04:37.272 precedent for a case that has been shrouded in suppression 0:04:37.432 --> 0:04:41.472 and secrecy ever since. When that information did finally come 0:04:41.512 --> 0:04:44.112 to light, it changed how we looked at the situation. 0:04:44.832 --> 0:04:47.472 But then quickly, with his biological parents ruled out of 0:04:47.512 --> 0:04:50.632 any abduction attempt, our sites moved on to who could 0:04:50.712 --> 0:04:53.832 possibly have taken that sweet little boy in his Spider 0:04:53.832 --> 0:04:56.312 Man suit, the one in the picture that all of 0:04:56.392 --> 0:04:58.672 us can immediately bring to mind when we hear his name. 0:04:59.472 --> 0:05:00.872 Did someone take him? 0:05:01.072 --> 0:05:04.352 Kendall had more than a dozen registered child sex offenders 0:05:04.392 --> 0:05:07.032 living in the vicinity, could have been targeted by one 0:05:07.072 --> 0:05:10.352 of them. Why were their cars parked on a street 0:05:10.352 --> 0:05:14.152 where everyone has long driveways to accommodate any locals or visitors? 0:05:14.752 --> 0:05:16.192 Were the even cars there at all? 0:05:17.072 --> 0:05:20.671 Why were the careers of police officers ended over this case? 0:05:21.232 --> 0:05:24.192 Why did police change their focus and zero in on 0:05:24.232 --> 0:05:27.352 the family who were looking after him? What evidence do 0:05:27.392 --> 0:05:30.552 they have to tie them to a crime. There are 0:05:31.232 --> 0:05:34.992 endless questions surrounding the disappearance of William Tyrell. In a case, 0:05:34.992 --> 0:05:37.552 it draws comparison to other missing Aussie kids, like the 0:05:37.592 --> 0:05:41.632 Beaumont children, or Joanne Ratcliffe and Kirsty Gordon. But while 0:05:41.672 --> 0:05:44.791 they were swallowed up by the crowds around them, how 0:05:44.832 --> 0:05:48.912 could a child be taken so quickly and so quietly 0:05:49.352 --> 0:05:51.952 in a street where everyone either knew each other or 0:05:51.992 --> 0:05:55.952 of each other. Not a sound, not a trail, not 0:05:56.032 --> 0:05:58.152 a glimpse of red and blue in the national forest 0:05:58.232 --> 0:06:02.991 that surrounded the property, and nothing ever since now, almost 0:06:03.112 --> 0:06:06.912 eleven years later, The team behind the podcast Witness William 0:06:06.912 --> 0:06:10.512 Tyrrel are uncovering evidence from the inquest that has thrown 0:06:10.592 --> 0:06:14.912 up even more unanswered questions. Dan Box is the host 0:06:14.912 --> 0:06:17.232 of Witness. He sat down with us to discuss their 0:06:17.312 --> 0:06:20.392 latest findings on the case that continues to loom over 0:06:20.432 --> 0:06:27.512 the country like every parent's worst nightmare. I'd really like 0:06:27.592 --> 0:06:31.472 to start off with just where you feel Australian hearts 0:06:31.512 --> 0:06:34.551 and minds are on the disappearance of William Tyrell. Because 0:06:34.592 --> 0:06:38.432 thousands of kids go missing across Australia every year. Why 0:06:38.592 --> 0:06:42.671 is this disappearance so much still at the forefront of 0:06:42.712 --> 0:06:45.712 our minds? And every time the tiny little development, we're 0:06:45.712 --> 0:06:46.671 all so invested. 0:06:46.832 --> 0:06:47.712 Why this case? 0:06:48.992 --> 0:06:53.072 Oh you know what, Claire, I am really glad, genuinely 0:06:53.192 --> 0:06:56.272 glad to hear used to say that in those terms, 0:06:56.312 --> 0:06:59.072 that it is still at the forefront of people's minds 0:06:59.792 --> 0:07:03.752 because I think my greatest fear, and I know the 0:07:03.752 --> 0:07:06.992 greatest fear of those people close to Willie is that 0:07:08.192 --> 0:07:11.112 he may be forgotten. Because we're now at the point 0:07:11.152 --> 0:07:14.312 where you can see it starting to be forgotten. The 0:07:14.352 --> 0:07:18.632 police investigation has run for ten years more than with 0:07:18.832 --> 0:07:22.472 no result. No one has been charged over William's disappearance. 0:07:23.032 --> 0:07:27.912 The inquest has run for round about five years and 0:07:29.072 --> 0:07:32.672 is due to report within a few months. From what 0:07:32.752 --> 0:07:35.592 I've seen of the evidence, is almost certainly going to 0:07:35.632 --> 0:07:39.392 come down and say we don't know. There's no evidence 0:07:39.552 --> 0:07:42.592 of what happened to William. And I've seen it in 0:07:42.632 --> 0:07:46.272 the last few months as a reporter working at the 0:07:46.312 --> 0:07:52.152 inquest doing this podcast, that it started to fall off 0:07:52.192 --> 0:07:57.112 the front pages, it started to get less attention. I 0:07:57.232 --> 0:08:02.432 remember a time when there were literally convoys of press, 0:08:02.832 --> 0:08:08.752 effectively paparazzi, pursuing witnesses and suspects. I know that because 0:08:08.792 --> 0:08:11.552 I was sadly I was among them. There was that 0:08:11.712 --> 0:08:15.792 level of interest, and it's worried me that that interest 0:08:15.952 --> 0:08:19.912 might stop, because the moment that interest stops is the 0:08:19.952 --> 0:08:23.352 moment I think it's possible for those responsible to find 0:08:23.352 --> 0:08:27.392 William to stop looking. And my greatest fear is that 0:08:27.392 --> 0:08:29.192 that will happen. So to hear you say it in 0:08:29.232 --> 0:08:32.232 those terms that he is still at the forefront of 0:08:32.271 --> 0:08:35.832 people's minds, he is still in people's hearts actually is 0:08:35.912 --> 0:08:37.352 incredibly reassuring. 0:08:38.432 --> 0:08:41.032 It's definitely one of those cases that I would discuss 0:08:41.072 --> 0:08:43.832 in the same breath as someone like Madeline McCann's disappearance. 0:08:43.872 --> 0:08:47.072 It's that very much unknown quantity about it. Yes, and 0:08:47.112 --> 0:08:49.952 there's been other cases of missing children you only just 0:08:49.952 --> 0:08:52.112 have to say their names, like the Beaumont children and 0:08:52.152 --> 0:08:54.752 immediately everybody knows what you're talking about. This case is 0:08:54.872 --> 0:08:55.872 very much in that vein. 0:08:56.192 --> 0:08:58.672 It's the greatest fear as a child, I think that 0:08:58.712 --> 0:09:01.112 you could be taken from what's safe, and as a 0:09:01.312 --> 0:09:05.232 parent that your child could be taken from what's sale safe. 0:09:05.272 --> 0:09:09.112 So it goes right to that kind of absolutely prime 0:09:09.192 --> 0:09:12.352 or feeler. I don't know if you're a parent, I'm sorry, 0:09:12.392 --> 0:09:13.112 but I am. 0:09:13.232 --> 0:09:13.952 Yeah, I am. 0:09:14.552 --> 0:09:16.952 Have you had the moment where you've lost sight of 0:09:16.992 --> 0:09:20.072 your kids, even just for like a few seconds, and 0:09:20.192 --> 0:09:23.232 suddenly it almost feels like the whole world is shaking. 0:09:24.192 --> 0:09:27.112 It's that kind of just instinct that we need to 0:09:27.112 --> 0:09:30.712 look after our children. And for this to happen, for 0:09:30.752 --> 0:09:33.032 a child to go missing for ten years later to 0:09:33.272 --> 0:09:36.312 not know what happened to him, it strikes that deep. 0:09:36.912 --> 0:09:41.032 Well, can you take us to Kendall where this all started, 0:09:41.592 --> 0:09:44.552 because in the podcast you do go visit there and 0:09:44.592 --> 0:09:48.512 you do talk about picturing your own children in that 0:09:48.592 --> 0:09:52.112 garden that day and realizing maybe just how easy it 0:09:52.112 --> 0:09:54.552 could have been for a child to run to a 0:09:54.552 --> 0:09:57.432 certain point and potentially be snatched by somebody. Can you 0:09:57.472 --> 0:10:00.032 give this paint a picture of what that property is 0:10:00.072 --> 0:10:01.832 like and what Kendall in general is like. 0:10:02.392 --> 0:10:06.272 Kendall is a small town. I mean, it's almost a feeling. 0:10:06.872 --> 0:10:09.232 It's got a kind of a central village green a 0:10:09.312 --> 0:10:12.072 war memory or most of the shops and houses organized 0:10:12.112 --> 0:10:15.151 around that. And then there's one road that leads out 0:10:15.392 --> 0:10:19.592 into the forest and very quickly at the time William 0:10:19.632 --> 0:10:23.632 went missing, the trees on either side just kind of 0:10:24.032 --> 0:10:26.952 closed in over it, and it became dark and it 0:10:26.992 --> 0:10:30.752 became quiet. It's a paved road, but there's no white 0:10:30.832 --> 0:10:33.432 lines down the middle, and you followed that through the 0:10:33.472 --> 0:10:37.752 forest and then you turned right into a dead end 0:10:37.832 --> 0:10:43.872 street called Benirum Drive, and it was kind of perfect, 0:10:44.032 --> 0:10:48.792 kind of idyllic, big properties, houses set back from the road, 0:10:48.872 --> 0:10:51.552 dead quiet, the kind of place you could imagine wanting 0:10:51.592 --> 0:10:54.192 your kids to grow up, or you could imagine taking 0:10:54.232 --> 0:10:57.952 your kids to see their grandparents, which is what William's 0:10:57.992 --> 0:11:01.272 foster parents did that day back in September twenty fourteen. 0:11:01.832 --> 0:11:06.072 There's space to play, there's quiet. I've been there now 0:11:07.272 --> 0:11:09.872 again and again over the past ten years, and the 0:11:09.912 --> 0:11:15.552 street hasn't changed. It's quiet. You notice cars coming because 0:11:15.552 --> 0:11:20.592 there's so few people around. And it's beautiful, the bushes 0:11:20.632 --> 0:11:25.872 on every side, there's flowers. It's great, except of course, 0:11:25.912 --> 0:11:28.832 it's where this awful thing happened. And you follow that 0:11:28.912 --> 0:11:31.912 road up to the top where it stops, and there's 0:11:31.912 --> 0:11:35.072 a house on the right hand side, and the house 0:11:35.152 --> 0:11:37.792 is set slightly up on a grass bank and there's 0:11:37.832 --> 0:11:40.672 a verandah around the house at that level, and the 0:11:42.592 --> 0:11:44.392 I was going to say the theory, but really we 0:11:44.432 --> 0:11:47.992 don't have any knowledge of what happened. But one of 0:11:48.032 --> 0:11:50.592 the first times I went there, the detective who was 0:11:50.672 --> 0:11:53.992 leading the investigation then was talking through his theory at 0:11:54.032 --> 0:11:56.912 the time of what may have happened, which was that 0:11:56.952 --> 0:12:00.472 William was out on the verandah with his foster mum 0:12:00.792 --> 0:12:03.832 foster grandmum, and he ran off around the side of 0:12:03.832 --> 0:12:06.192 the house playing It was playing a game called Daddy, 0:12:06.952 --> 0:12:09.752 which you can imagine. It involves him roaring and then 0:12:09.832 --> 0:12:12.752 running away and running back and roaring. And he was three, 0:12:12.872 --> 0:12:16.432 so it would have been hilarious and he was off roaring, 0:12:16.472 --> 0:12:19.392 and then it went quiet, and it went quiet for 0:12:19.512 --> 0:12:22.672 just a bit too long. On the evidence of the 0:12:22.992 --> 0:12:24.232 two adult women who were. 0:12:24.152 --> 0:12:26.472 There, Well, that's something as a parent you learned to 0:12:26.592 --> 0:12:28.792 listen out for, right, because you listen out for theselves. 0:12:28.912 --> 0:12:31.592 But the quiet often says so much more about what 0:12:31.632 --> 0:12:32.832 your child is doing. Right. 0:12:33.592 --> 0:12:37.352 It does, doesn't it, But it's always the quiet is 0:12:37.392 --> 0:12:39.472 always the one you notice when it's been going on 0:12:39.512 --> 0:12:42.392 for just a bit too long as a parent, because 0:12:42.392 --> 0:12:45.192 that's what alerts you to it. And on the evidence 0:12:45.232 --> 0:12:48.631 of the foster mum and the foster grandmom, that's what happened. 0:12:48.672 --> 0:12:51.272 The quiet went on for just too long. And when 0:12:51.272 --> 0:12:55.112 I stood there with that detective, you can see down 0:12:55.152 --> 0:12:58.112 the grass slope of the property towards the road, and 0:12:58.112 --> 0:13:00.912 it's not fenced, so the grass leads right on past 0:13:00.952 --> 0:13:04.272 a couple of trees to the empty road. And the 0:13:04.272 --> 0:13:06.712 theory at the time was that maybe William had around 0:13:06.752 --> 0:13:09.352 the corner and kind of kept going because it was 0:13:09.392 --> 0:13:12.592 all downhill and it's steepish, and he'd kept running and 0:13:12.912 --> 0:13:14.912 kind of ended up a bit further down the grass, 0:13:15.632 --> 0:13:19.792 and there'd been somebody there by chance or by design, 0:13:19.912 --> 0:13:24.832 there'd been someone there and that someone had said hello, 0:13:25.632 --> 0:13:29.992 and then something had happened. And I remember standing there 0:13:29.992 --> 0:13:34.552 and I still remember it now, and I I had 0:13:34.552 --> 0:13:37.752 a three year old at home. My eldest was three then, 0:13:38.152 --> 0:13:40.232 and so when the detective was describing her, a three 0:13:40.312 --> 0:13:42.232 year old could run down the slope, I could picture 0:13:42.272 --> 0:13:45.912 it that slightly wonky way that the little kids run. 0:13:46.192 --> 0:13:49.072 Nothing quite works yet, so they were kind of walking 0:13:49.112 --> 0:13:54.031 her way down. I could picture my daughter kind of 0:13:54.112 --> 0:13:58.112 running down their slope and I could imagine exactly that happening, 0:13:58.152 --> 0:14:01.552 and then that meeting with something at the bottom of 0:14:01.592 --> 0:14:04.911 the slope on the road, and it just because I 0:14:04.952 --> 0:14:09.352 could picture my child doing what the police thought William 0:14:09.472 --> 0:14:12.552 might have done. It was so real and so personal. 0:14:12.592 --> 0:14:18.872 And I don't get a lot of shivers or feelings 0:14:18.912 --> 0:14:21.352 doing this kind of work, because you can't allow yourself 0:14:21.392 --> 0:14:24.992 to as a crime reporter. But on that case, it 0:14:25.032 --> 0:14:26.992 bothered me, and it bothered me the whole way home, 0:14:27.432 --> 0:14:31.232 and it bothered me into the house. And I think 0:14:31.272 --> 0:14:33.752 that is a part of the reason that I've kept 0:14:33.792 --> 0:14:36.992 going back to it over the ten years since, just 0:14:37.072 --> 0:14:43.112 that feeling of being able to fear what had happened 0:14:43.312 --> 0:14:45.032 happening to my family. 0:14:46.512 --> 0:14:48.272 So, as you mentioned, that quite went on for a 0:14:48.312 --> 0:14:51.792 little bit too long, and William's foster mother, her instincts 0:14:51.832 --> 0:14:55.112 are pricked. She goes to investigate. She can't find him anywhere. 0:14:55.632 --> 0:14:58.352 As you've mentioned, it's a very quiet spot. There's very 0:14:58.352 --> 0:15:01.472 few people around, Like the chances of him being snatched 0:15:01.512 --> 0:15:06.872 by somebody seems completely remote. And yet she says she 0:15:06.952 --> 0:15:09.432 can't even see his Spider Man suit, which is quite 0:15:09.432 --> 0:15:12.312 bright red and blue in amongst all of that greenery, 0:15:12.392 --> 0:15:16.472 which you'd think he would stand out pretty clearly. She 0:15:16.592 --> 0:15:20.232 starts to panic, people start to join in on the search. 0:15:20.472 --> 0:15:23.472 Her husband comes home, he joins in. What happens from 0:15:23.512 --> 0:15:26.672 that point on because it feels like if you don't 0:15:26.672 --> 0:15:29.232 find him in that short of time, in the very 0:15:29.792 --> 0:15:33.432 near vicinity, like you have to start thinking bigger pretty quickly. 0:15:35.232 --> 0:15:41.232 Yeah, And at that moment everything becomes contested, because we've 0:15:41.232 --> 0:15:43.792 got to remember that where we are now, with the 0:15:43.832 --> 0:15:48.192 inquests preparing to report in a few months. The last 0:15:48.272 --> 0:15:51.032 few years have been dominated by the police focusing their 0:15:51.072 --> 0:15:55.152 investigation on the foster mother, and they have sent a 0:15:55.192 --> 0:15:58.072 brief of evidence against her to the States Director of 0:15:58.072 --> 0:16:01.632 Public Prosecutions asking for advice on whether to charge her. 0:16:02.432 --> 0:16:04.712 We don't know exactly charge her with what, and the 0:16:05.152 --> 0:16:08.952 DPP hasn't as far as we know, come back and 0:16:08.992 --> 0:16:12.672 given any advice as yet. But we do know from 0:16:12.792 --> 0:16:15.912 court hearings and our work on this podcast over the 0:16:15.952 --> 0:16:21.672 past two years now that the police suspected the foster 0:16:21.792 --> 0:16:24.992 mother of being involved, but her account is completely different. 0:16:25.032 --> 0:16:30.112 Her account is William is gone. She runs runs around 0:16:30.192 --> 0:16:34.912 desperately trying to find him. She alerts the neighbors they're 0:16:34.952 --> 0:16:37.392 out on the street. She drives up and down the 0:16:37.472 --> 0:16:40.752 road and actually a bit round the corner looking for him, 0:16:40.792 --> 0:16:45.632 calling for him, and then everything kind of changes with 0:16:45.712 --> 0:16:49.552 this case in a way that I've been doing this 0:16:49.672 --> 0:16:52.112 job reporting on crime for decades now and I've never 0:16:52.112 --> 0:16:54.512 seen anything like it in terms of the scale of 0:16:54.512 --> 0:16:57.952 the response. The police are there within minutes. It's an 0:16:57.992 --> 0:17:02.432 incredibly impressive police response. They're within minutes, and they're there 0:17:02.432 --> 0:17:07.951 within scale with scale, huge numbers. Helicopter support messages go 0:17:07.992 --> 0:17:12.351 out on Facebook. People turn up in their hundreds to 0:17:12.431 --> 0:17:16.192 search for William. But the one thing they don't do 0:17:17.111 --> 0:17:20.111 is they don't secure a potential crime scene because the 0:17:20.192 --> 0:17:23.271 focus is on a missing boy who may have wandered 0:17:23.311 --> 0:17:26.711 off into the bush, and so no one puts tape 0:17:26.752 --> 0:17:29.752 around the house, puts tape around the garden, says don't 0:17:29.752 --> 0:17:34.191 come here. People trample that grass, they walk up and 0:17:34.232 --> 0:17:36.751 down it, they drive up and down the road. Cars 0:17:36.752 --> 0:17:39.952 are allowed in and out of the road without anyone 0:17:39.992 --> 0:17:46.552 writing down registration plates, without being searched. It's chaotic. As 0:17:46.631 --> 0:17:50.151 not to blame the police, because I'm sure I wouldn't 0:17:50.151 --> 0:17:50.992 have done a better job. 0:17:51.032 --> 0:17:52.871 While I hope they didn't know what they were dealing with. 0:17:52.911 --> 0:17:53.511 At the time, I. 0:17:53.512 --> 0:17:55.912 Didn't know what they were dealing with. And the policies 0:17:56.071 --> 0:18:00.551 have changed since. But hundreds of people allowed into a 0:18:00.591 --> 0:18:03.831 potential crime scene that we now believe certainly was a 0:18:03.831 --> 0:18:10.032 crime scene. Anything forensic is gone. It's been literally trampled 0:18:10.111 --> 0:18:13.711 under foot, and as a result, there is we know 0:18:13.792 --> 0:18:16.631 this from the inquest. There's no forensic evidence. There's no 0:18:16.752 --> 0:18:21.791 eyewitness account of how William was taken away, what happened 0:18:21.792 --> 0:18:25.431 to him. And I do think that's the fundamental that 0:18:25.591 --> 0:18:30.032 the original sin in this case, that that element of 0:18:30.071 --> 0:18:33.231 control at the start to say stop, this is a 0:18:33.232 --> 0:18:37.191 potential crime scene. Wasn't done, and we don't know what 0:18:37.232 --> 0:18:38.352 we lost as a result. 0:18:39.871 --> 0:18:42.671 One of the things that has been brought up quite 0:18:42.671 --> 0:18:44.952 a bit from the beginning is the fact that William's 0:18:44.952 --> 0:18:48.351 foster mother said she saw two cars parked on the road, 0:18:48.631 --> 0:18:51.111 which is very unusual for that street because people have 0:18:51.232 --> 0:18:54.272 very long open driveways. And she said, you know, she 0:18:54.391 --> 0:18:57.192 saw that the windows of the driver's sides were down. 0:18:57.232 --> 0:18:59.431 They would have been able to view the property. She 0:18:59.512 --> 0:19:01.911 could see them when she opened up the veranda door 0:19:01.952 --> 0:19:06.231 that day, but no one else can corroborate. 0:19:05.712 --> 0:19:07.311 That those cars were ever there. 0:19:08.111 --> 0:19:10.071 Another car that was brought into question a white car 0:19:10.111 --> 0:19:13.231 that came up later where someone suggested that they saw 0:19:13.472 --> 0:19:16.432 William in a car with somebody was the same color 0:19:16.431 --> 0:19:19.831 but a different kind of car. So how do police 0:19:20.032 --> 0:19:23.272 investigate this when there's no one else to back it up? 0:19:23.591 --> 0:19:26.231 The other evidence feels like it doesn't match like and 0:19:26.792 --> 0:19:28.992 I guess they have to take into consideration that she's 0:19:29.111 --> 0:19:30.671 potentially not telling them the truth. 0:19:31.992 --> 0:19:35.951 Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that white car you mentioned 0:19:36.032 --> 0:19:40.032 that white car haunts this investigation like a ghost. So 0:19:40.351 --> 0:19:43.032 we've we don't actually put this in the podcast or 0:19:43.111 --> 0:19:46.272 are written reporting at all. But we've gone through every 0:19:46.311 --> 0:19:48.831 single reference to that white car in all of the 0:19:48.911 --> 0:19:51.711 exhibits and the interviews we've done and the interviews the 0:19:51.712 --> 0:19:54.231 police have done everything we've been able to get hold of, 0:19:54.272 --> 0:19:57.911 which is thousands and thousands of pages of information. And 0:19:57.952 --> 0:20:00.831 the white car is here, it's there, it's there, it's 0:20:00.871 --> 0:20:05.191 mentioned by this person that person. But you can't stitch 0:20:05.232 --> 0:20:08.111 it together. You can't say, well, that's that white car. 0:20:08.391 --> 0:20:11.471 You can't. It's always a similar description and it's always 0:20:11.472 --> 0:20:17.032 this white possibly station wagon. But there's nothing secure, nothing 0:20:17.032 --> 0:20:20.631 you can actually say, Okay, that's that's a lead. And 0:20:20.671 --> 0:20:24.311 in terms of the foster mum's evidence about those two cars, 0:20:24.351 --> 0:20:26.991 she says she saw and I've spoken to her about this, 0:20:28.431 --> 0:20:33.311 She didn't remember them at the time. She remembers seeing them, 0:20:33.472 --> 0:20:36.071 but I think it's a day or two days later 0:20:36.952 --> 0:20:39.672 she's driving out to the airport to pick up quite 0:20:39.671 --> 0:20:41.591 a lot of family and friends came at the time 0:20:41.671 --> 0:20:45.191 to support the family they're driving out for that, and 0:20:45.232 --> 0:20:49.151 she says she remembers the cars at that point, and 0:20:49.232 --> 0:20:51.952 that has allowed plenty of people to question her memory. 0:20:52.351 --> 0:20:54.831 Both the police have questioned her memory about that, and 0:20:55.472 --> 0:20:57.472 I mean, you've probably got an idea of the scale 0:20:57.512 --> 0:21:00.311 of the internet interest in this, the kind of web 0:21:00.351 --> 0:21:03.272 sleuths and the people who comment on this, and journalists 0:21:03.311 --> 0:21:06.951 as well. It's always in dispute is to she really 0:21:06.992 --> 0:21:10.071 see that, because if she did, why didn't she remember 0:21:10.071 --> 0:21:12.552 it at the time. But this is where you get 0:21:12.552 --> 0:21:17.032 into People's memories aren't perfect, and I've again done this 0:21:17.111 --> 0:21:19.831 job long enough to see plenty of crimes where people's 0:21:19.831 --> 0:21:23.711 memories are frankly all over the place. Particularly if she 0:21:23.792 --> 0:21:25.552 is telling the truth and she was going through this 0:21:25.631 --> 0:21:29.992 incredibly emotional thing, she'd lost her child, She's got fear, panic, 0:21:30.151 --> 0:21:34.472 all of that. Her memory isn't quite right. But if 0:21:34.512 --> 0:21:39.151 she did see those cars, then that is obviously potentially 0:21:39.192 --> 0:21:42.871 significant because that's basically where William would have gone if 0:21:42.871 --> 0:21:45.911 he had run down that slope, as the police initially believed. 0:21:47.151 --> 0:21:50.111 But we've never been able to identify or pin down 0:21:50.151 --> 0:21:54.672 those cars, And I don't know what you can read 0:21:54.712 --> 0:21:55.192 into it. 0:21:55.591 --> 0:22:00.592 Speaking of reading into things, though, you mentioned the internet 0:22:00.591 --> 0:22:05.192 saluting that's gone on alongside the actual official investigation, where 0:22:05.232 --> 0:22:08.591 people have been allowed to basically free for all their 0:22:08.631 --> 0:22:11.751 opinions on what they feel has happened in the aftermath 0:22:11.911 --> 0:22:16.511 of William's disappearance. What impact does that have on the 0:22:16.552 --> 0:22:20.391 actual official investigation Because there are suppression orders in place 0:22:20.431 --> 0:22:22.232 that means people like you and I I can't talk 0:22:22.272 --> 0:22:24.992 about certain aspects of this case. But when that information 0:22:25.071 --> 0:22:27.631 gets leaked, the internet can do with it as it pleases, 0:22:27.911 --> 0:22:32.191 and I imagine that that doesn't always help police in 0:22:32.232 --> 0:22:35.591 their investigating and trying to get to the bottom of this. No. 0:22:35.952 --> 0:22:39.031 I think it's a really good question, and it's a 0:22:39.071 --> 0:22:43.952 modern phenomena. It's a phenomena of our age with criminal investigations, 0:22:43.952 --> 0:22:46.111 and you're seeing it around the world. There was a 0:22:46.192 --> 0:22:50.431 murder investigation in I think the UK recently where the 0:22:50.472 --> 0:22:54.351 police actually had to put out an appeal to internet 0:22:54.552 --> 0:22:57.591 sleuths to stop going to the crime scene because people 0:22:57.712 --> 0:23:00.591 going down there and filming themselves trying to solve the 0:23:00.631 --> 0:23:05.552 case or kind of live streaming themselves at a crime scene, 0:23:05.671 --> 0:23:07.712 and of course that doesn't help anyone for the same 0:23:07.752 --> 0:23:11.151 reason they might trample on the evidence. But in this case, 0:23:11.472 --> 0:23:15.311 I've never seen anything like it. The like you said, 0:23:15.351 --> 0:23:19.271 just on that thing about suppression orders, this is the 0:23:19.311 --> 0:23:23.471 most secretive police investigation I've ever seen in terms of 0:23:23.512 --> 0:23:28.111