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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. This Sunday, May

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Speaker 1: twenty five is International Missing Children's Day. While thousands of

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Speaker 1: Ozzie kids do go missing every year, most of them

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Speaker 1: are found, but not all of them. On a warm

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Speaker 1: Friday morning in September twenty fourteen, three year old William

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Speaker 1: Tyrrel was playing with his five year old sister in

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Speaker 1: the front yard of his foster grandma's home in Kendall,

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Speaker 1: a quiet rural town on the New South Wales Mid

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Speaker 1: North Coast. It's about a four hour drive from Sydney,

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Speaker 1: where William and his foster family lived. They're driven up

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Speaker 1: the night before, stopping at a Macca's halfway point for

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Speaker 1: a treat and a break before continuing on to visit Grandma.

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Speaker 1: She'd placed the Kendal property on the market, so their

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Speaker 1: time to spend in this idellic rural setting was running out.

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Speaker 1: William is wearing his favorite outfit, a red and blue

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Speaker 1: Spider Man suit. His foster mom had argued with him

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Speaker 1: earlier about what to wear underneath it. Kids being kids,

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Speaker 1: She'd had to negotiate a Spider Man T shirt in

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Speaker 1: place of the singlet that she wanted him to wear to.

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Speaker 2: Keep him warm enough.

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Speaker 1: William was having fun running around the verandah, roaring and giggling,

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Speaker 1: full of energy and imagination. His foster mother and foster

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Speaker 1: grandmother sat nearby, sipping tea and watching the kids play,

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Speaker 1: smiling as they listened to the sound of William's playful

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Speaker 1: growls in his sister's laughter echoing across the yard. At

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Speaker 1: one point, William ran around the side of the house

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Speaker 1: as his foster mother headed inside to make another cup

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Speaker 1: of tea, and then the roaring stops. She pauses, waiting

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Speaker 1: for the next laugh or shout, but it doesn't come.

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Speaker 2: She calls out his name. Nothing.

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Speaker 1: What started as a normal childhood game quickly turns into

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Speaker 1: something else. She checks the yard, no sign of him

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Speaker 1: inside the house. Still nothing. Minutes pass then more, her

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Speaker 1: heart is racing. Her voice gets louder, William, where are you.

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Speaker 1: When William's foster father arrives home, the search is already underway.

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Speaker 1: He starts knocking on neighbor's doors, asking if anyone's seen

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Speaker 1: the little boy in the Spider Man suit. After about

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes of searching, they call the police. A call

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Speaker 1: that would later be scrutinized, as so many women in

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Speaker 1: situations like this are. Did she sound panicked enough for

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Speaker 1: did she sound too calm?

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Speaker 2: Officers arrive, Locals.

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Speaker 1: Join in, Dozens, eventually hundreds of volunteers comb through the

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Speaker 1: surrounding bushland. But there's no trace of William, not that day,

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Speaker 1: not in the days that followed. One moment he was there, roaring, laughing, running,

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Speaker 1: the next it was just gone. I'm Claire Murphy and

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Speaker 1: this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's

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Speaker 1: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know

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Speaker 1: the most about them. Now, it's important to note that

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Speaker 1: the identities of William Tirel's biological and foster families are

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Speaker 1: legally concealed. It's due to strict a strain in laws

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Speaker 1: that protect the privacy of children in foster care and

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Speaker 1: their caregivers, and that there are also some aspects of

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Speaker 1: this case that we are legally bound not to discuss.

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Speaker 1: We also need to make it very clear that at

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Speaker 1: this point in time, no one has been charged with

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Speaker 1: either the abduction or murder of William Tyrrel, that the

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Speaker 1: investigation is ongoing, and that everyone connected to this story

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Speaker 1: at this time is innocent until proven guilty. Those who

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Speaker 1: have been accused maintained that they had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with his disappearance. William Tyrrel's start to life wasn't smooth sailing.

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Speaker 1: He was born into a household with parents who loved

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Speaker 1: him fiercely, but who issues of their own. They struggled

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Speaker 1: with drug abuse and violence, and it was those issues

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Speaker 1: that would lead to the state taking William into their care,

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Speaker 1: into another fiercely loving family, but who also had to

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Speaker 1: navigate the system that officially speaks for their son. When

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Speaker 1: William vanished on the morning of September twelve, twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 1: we weren't initially allowed to even know that William was

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Speaker 1: being fostered.

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Speaker 2: Police said they didn't want it.

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Speaker 1: To interfere in their investigation, but it would set a

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Speaker 1: precedent for a case that has been shrouded in suppression

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Speaker 1: and secrecy ever since. When that information did finally come

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Speaker 1: to light, it changed how we looked at the situation.

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Speaker 1: But then quickly, with his biological parents ruled out of

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Speaker 1: any abduction attempt, our sites moved on to who could

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Speaker 1: possibly have taken that sweet little boy in his Spider

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Speaker 1: Man suit, the one in the picture that all of

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Speaker 1: us can immediately bring to mind when we hear his name.

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Speaker 2: Did someone take him?

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Speaker 1: Kendall had more than a dozen registered child sex offenders

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Speaker 1: living in the vicinity, could have been targeted by one

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Speaker 1: of them. Why were their cars parked on a street

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Speaker 1: where everyone has long driveways to accommodate any locals or visitors?

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Speaker 2: Were the even cars there at all?

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Speaker 1: Why were the careers of police officers ended over this case?

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Speaker 1: Why did police change their focus and zero in on

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Speaker 1: the family who were looking after him? What evidence do

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Speaker 1: they have to tie them to a crime. There are

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Speaker 1: endless questions surrounding the disappearance of William Tyrell. In a case,

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Speaker 1: it draws comparison to other missing Aussie kids, like the

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Speaker 1: Beaumont children, or Joanne Ratcliffe and Kirsty Gordon. But while

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Speaker 1: they were swallowed up by the crowds around them, how

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Speaker 1: could a child be taken so quickly and so quietly

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Speaker 1: in a street where everyone either knew each other or

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Speaker 1: of each other. Not a sound, not a trail, not

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Speaker 1: a glimpse of red and blue in the national forest

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Speaker 1: that surrounded the property, and nothing ever since now, almost

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Speaker 1: eleven years later, The team behind the podcast Witness William

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Speaker 1: Tyrrel are uncovering evidence from the inquest that has thrown

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Speaker 1: up even more unanswered questions. Dan Box is the host

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Speaker 1: of Witness. He sat down with us to discuss their

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Speaker 1: latest findings on the case that continues to loom over

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Speaker 1: the country like every parent's worst nightmare. I'd really like

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Speaker 1: to start off with just where you feel Australian hearts

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Speaker 1: and minds are on the disappearance of William Tyrell. Because

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Speaker 1: thousands of kids go missing across Australia every year. Why

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Speaker 1: is this disappearance so much still at the forefront of

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Speaker 1: our minds? And every time the tiny little development, we're

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Speaker 1: all so invested.

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Speaker 2: Why this case?

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Speaker 3: Oh you know what, Claire, I am really glad, genuinely

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Speaker 3: glad to hear used to say that in those terms,

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Speaker 3: that it is still at the forefront of people's minds

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Speaker 3: because I think my greatest fear, and I know the

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Speaker 3: greatest fear of those people close to Willie is that

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Speaker 3: he may be forgotten. Because we're now at the point

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Speaker 3: where you can see it starting to be forgotten. The

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Speaker 3: police investigation has run for ten years more than with

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Speaker 3: no result. No one has been charged over William's disappearance.

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Speaker 3: The inquest has run for round about five years and

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Speaker 3: is due to report within a few months. From what

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Speaker 3: I've seen of the evidence, is almost certainly going to

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Speaker 3: come down and say we don't know. There's no evidence

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Speaker 3: of what happened to William. And I've seen it in

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Speaker 3: the last few months as a reporter working at the

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Speaker 3: inquest doing this podcast, that it started to fall off

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Speaker 3: the front pages, it started to get less attention. I

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Speaker 3: remember a time when there were literally convoys of press,

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Speaker 3: effectively paparazzi, pursuing witnesses and suspects. I know that because

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Speaker 3: I was sadly I was among them. There was that

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Speaker 3: level of interest, and it's worried me that that interest

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Speaker 3: might stop, because the moment that interest stops is the

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Speaker 3: moment I think it's possible for those responsible to find

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Speaker 3: William to stop looking. And my greatest fear is that

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Speaker 3: that will happen. So to hear you say it in

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Speaker 3: those terms that he is still at the forefront of

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Speaker 3: people's minds, he is still in people's hearts actually is

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Speaker 3: incredibly reassuring.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely one of those cases that I would discuss

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Speaker 1: in the same breath as someone like Madeline McCann's disappearance.

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Speaker 1: It's that very much unknown quantity about it. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: there's been other cases of missing children you only just

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Speaker 1: have to say their names, like the Beaumont children and

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Speaker 1: immediately everybody knows what you're talking about. This case is

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Speaker 1: very much in that vein.

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Speaker 3: It's the greatest fear as a child, I think that

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Speaker 3: you could be taken from what's safe, and as a

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Speaker 3: parent that your child could be taken from what's sale safe.

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Speaker 3: So it goes right to that kind of absolutely prime

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Speaker 3: or feeler. I don't know if you're a parent, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 3: but I am.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I am.

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Speaker 3: Have you had the moment where you've lost sight of

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Speaker 3: your kids, even just for like a few seconds, and

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Speaker 3: suddenly it almost feels like the whole world is shaking.

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Speaker 3: It's that kind of just instinct that we need to

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Speaker 3: look after our children. And for this to happen, for

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Speaker 3: a child to go missing for ten years later to

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Speaker 3: not know what happened to him, it strikes that deep.

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Speaker 1: Well, can you take us to Kendall where this all started,

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Speaker 1: because in the podcast you do go visit there and

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Speaker 1: you do talk about picturing your own children in that

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Speaker 1: garden that day and realizing maybe just how easy it

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Speaker 1: could have been for a child to run to a

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Speaker 1: certain point and potentially be snatched by somebody. Can you

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Speaker 1: give this paint a picture of what that property is

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Speaker 1: like and what Kendall in general is like.

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Speaker 3: Kendall is a small town. I mean, it's almost a feeling.

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Speaker 3: It's got a kind of a central village green a

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Speaker 3: war memory or most of the shops and houses organized

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Speaker 3: around that. And then there's one road that leads out

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Speaker 3: into the forest and very quickly at the time William

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Speaker 3: went missing, the trees on either side just kind of

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Speaker 3: closed in over it, and it became dark and it

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Speaker 3: became quiet. It's a paved road, but there's no white

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Speaker 3: lines down the middle, and you followed that through the

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Speaker 3: forest and then you turned right into a dead end

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Speaker 3: street called Benirum Drive, and it was kind of perfect,

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Speaker 3: kind of idyllic, big properties, houses set back from the road,

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Speaker 3: dead quiet, the kind of place you could imagine wanting

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Speaker 3: your kids to grow up, or you could imagine taking

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Speaker 3: your kids to see their grandparents, which is what William's

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Speaker 3: foster parents did that day back in September twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 3: There's space to play, there's quiet. I've been there now

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Speaker 3: again and again over the past ten years, and the

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Speaker 3: street hasn't changed. It's quiet. You notice cars coming because

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Speaker 3: there's so few people around. And it's beautiful, the bushes

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Speaker 3: on every side, there's flowers. It's great, except of course,

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Speaker 3: it's where this awful thing happened. And you follow that

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Speaker 3: road up to the top where it stops, and there's

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Speaker 3: a house on the right hand side, and the house

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Speaker 3: is set slightly up on a grass bank and there's

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Speaker 3: a verandah around the house at that level, and the

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Speaker 3: I was going to say the theory, but really we

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Speaker 3: don't have any knowledge of what happened. But one of

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Speaker 3: the first times I went there, the detective who was

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Speaker 3: leading the investigation then was talking through his theory at

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Speaker 3: the time of what may have happened, which was that

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Speaker 3: William was out on the verandah with his foster mum

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Speaker 3: foster grandmum, and he ran off around the side of

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Speaker 3: the house playing It was playing a game called Daddy,

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Speaker 3: which you can imagine. It involves him roaring and then

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Speaker 3: running away and running back and roaring. And he was three,

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Speaker 3: so it would have been hilarious and he was off roaring,

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Speaker 3: and then it went quiet, and it went quiet for

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Speaker 3: just a bit too long. On the evidence of the

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Speaker 3: two adult women who were.

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Speaker 1: There, Well, that's something as a parent you learned to

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Speaker 1: listen out for, right, because you listen out for theselves.

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Speaker 1: But the quiet often says so much more about what

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Speaker 1: your child is doing. Right.

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Speaker 3: It does, doesn't it, But it's always the quiet is

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Speaker 3: always the one you notice when it's been going on

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Speaker 3: for just a bit too long as a parent, because

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Speaker 3: that's what alerts you to it. And on the evidence

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Speaker 3: of the foster mum and the foster grandmom, that's what happened.

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Speaker 3: The quiet went on for just too long. And when

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Speaker 3: I stood there with that detective, you can see down

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Speaker 3: the grass slope of the property towards the road, and

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Speaker 3: it's not fenced, so the grass leads right on past

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Speaker 3: a couple of trees to the empty road. And the

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Speaker 3: theory at the time was that maybe William had around

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Speaker 3: the corner and kind of kept going because it was

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Speaker 3: all downhill and it's steepish, and he'd kept running and

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Speaker 3: kind of ended up a bit further down the grass,

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Speaker 3: and there'd been somebody there by chance or by design,

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Speaker 3: there'd been someone there and that someone had said hello,

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Speaker 3: and then something had happened. And I remember standing there

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Speaker 3: and I still remember it now, and I I had

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Speaker 3: a three year old at home. My eldest was three then,

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Speaker 3: and so when the detective was describing her, a three

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Speaker 3: year old could run down the slope, I could picture

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Speaker 3: it that slightly wonky way that the little kids run.

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Speaker 3: Nothing quite works yet, so they were kind of walking

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Speaker 3: her way down. I could picture my daughter kind of

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Speaker 3: running down their slope and I could imagine exactly that happening,

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Speaker 3: and then that meeting with something at the bottom of

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Speaker 3: the slope on the road, and it just because I

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Speaker 3: could picture my child doing what the police thought William

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Speaker 3: might have done. It was so real and so personal.

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Speaker 3: And I don't get a lot of shivers or feelings

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Speaker 3: doing this kind of work, because you can't allow yourself

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Speaker 3: to as a crime reporter. But on that case, it

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Speaker 3: bothered me, and it bothered me the whole way home,

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Speaker 3: and it bothered me into the house. And I think

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Speaker 3: that is a part of the reason that I've kept

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Speaker 3: going back to it over the ten years since, just

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Speaker 3: that feeling of being able to fear what had happened

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Speaker 3: happening to my family.

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Speaker 1: So, as you mentioned, that quite went on for a

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Speaker 1: little bit too long, and William's foster mother, her instincts

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Speaker 1: are pricked. She goes to investigate. She can't find him anywhere.

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Speaker 1: As you've mentioned, it's a very quiet spot. There's very

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Speaker 1: few people around, Like the chances of him being snatched

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Speaker 1: by somebody seems completely remote. And yet she says she

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Speaker 1: can't even see his Spider Man suit, which is quite

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Speaker 1: bright red and blue in amongst all of that greenery,

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Speaker 1: which you'd think he would stand out pretty clearly. She

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Speaker 1: starts to panic, people start to join in on the search.

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Speaker 1: Her husband comes home, he joins in. What happens from

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Speaker 1: that point on because it feels like if you don't

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Speaker 1: find him in that short of time, in the very

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Speaker 1: near vicinity, like you have to start thinking bigger pretty quickly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And at that moment everything becomes contested, because we've

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Speaker 3: got to remember that where we are now, with the

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Speaker 3: inquests preparing to report in a few months. The last

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Speaker 3: few years have been dominated by the police focusing their

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Speaker 3: investigation on the foster mother, and they have sent a

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Speaker 3: brief of evidence against her to the States Director of

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Speaker 3: Public Prosecutions asking for advice on whether to charge her.

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Speaker 3: We don't know exactly charge her with what, and the

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Speaker 3: DPP hasn't as far as we know, come back and

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Speaker 3: given any advice as yet. But we do know from

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Speaker 3: court hearings and our work on this podcast over the

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Speaker 3: past two years now that the police suspected the foster

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Speaker 3: mother of being involved, but her account is completely different.

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Speaker 3: Her account is William is gone. She runs runs around

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Speaker 3: desperately trying to find him. She alerts the neighbors they're

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Speaker 3: out on the street. She drives up and down the

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Speaker 3: road and actually a bit round the corner looking for him,

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Speaker 3: calling for him, and then everything kind of changes with

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Speaker 3: this case in a way that I've been doing this

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Speaker 3: job reporting on crime for decades now and I've never

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Speaker 3: seen anything like it in terms of the scale of

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Speaker 3: the response. The police are there within minutes. It's an

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Speaker 3: incredibly impressive police response. They're within minutes, and they're there

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Speaker 3: within scale with scale, huge numbers. Helicopter support messages go

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Speaker 3: out on Facebook. People turn up in their hundreds to

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Speaker 3: search for William. But the one thing they don't do

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Speaker 3: is they don't secure a potential crime scene because the

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Speaker 3: focus is on a missing boy who may have wandered

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Speaker 3: off into the bush, and so no one puts tape

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Speaker 3: around the house, puts tape around the garden, says don't

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Speaker 3: come here. People trample that grass, they walk up and

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Speaker 3: down it, they drive up and down the road. Cars

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Speaker 3: are allowed in and out of the road without anyone

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Speaker 3: writing down registration plates, without being searched. It's chaotic. As

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Speaker 3: not to blame the police, because I'm sure I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have done a better job.

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Speaker 2: While I hope they didn't know what they were dealing with.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I.

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Speaker 3: Didn't know what they were dealing with. And the policies

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Speaker 3: have changed since. But hundreds of people allowed into a

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Speaker 3: potential crime scene that we now believe certainly was a

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Speaker 3: crime scene. Anything forensic is gone. It's been literally trampled

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Speaker 3: under foot, and as a result, there is we know

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Speaker 3: this from the inquest. There's no forensic evidence. There's no

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Speaker 3: eyewitness account of how William was taken away, what happened

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Speaker 3: to him. And I do think that's the fundamental that

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Speaker 3: the original sin in this case, that that element of

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Speaker 3: control at the start to say stop, this is a

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Speaker 3: potential crime scene. Wasn't done, and we don't know what

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Speaker 3: we lost as a result.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that has been brought up quite

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Speaker 1: a bit from the beginning is the fact that William's

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Speaker 1: foster mother said she saw two cars parked on the road,

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Speaker 1: which is very unusual for that street because people have

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Speaker 1: very long open driveways. And she said, you know, she

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Speaker 1: saw that the windows of the driver's sides were down.

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Speaker 1: They would have been able to view the property. She

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Speaker 1: could see them when she opened up the veranda door

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Speaker 1: that day, but no one else can corroborate.

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Speaker 2: That those cars were ever there.

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Speaker 1: Another car that was brought into question a white car

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Speaker 1: that came up later where someone suggested that they saw

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Speaker 1: William in a car with somebody was the same color

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Speaker 1: but a different kind of car. So how do police

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Speaker 1: investigate this when there's no one else to back it up?

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Speaker 1: The other evidence feels like it doesn't match like and

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Speaker 1: I guess they have to take into consideration that she's

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Speaker 1: potentially not telling them the truth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that white car you mentioned

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Speaker 3: that white car haunts this investigation like a ghost. So

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Speaker 3: we've we don't actually put this in the podcast or

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Speaker 3: are written reporting at all. But we've gone through every

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Speaker 3: single reference to that white car in all of the

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Speaker 3: exhibits and the interviews we've done and the interviews the

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Speaker 3: police have done everything we've been able to get hold of,

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Speaker 3: which is thousands and thousands of pages of information. And

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Speaker 3: the white car is here, it's there, it's there, it's

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Speaker 3: mentioned by this person that person. But you can't stitch

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Speaker 3: it together. You can't say, well, that's that white car.

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Speaker 3: You can't. It's always a similar description and it's always

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Speaker 3: this white possibly station wagon. But there's nothing secure, nothing

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Speaker 3: you can actually say, Okay, that's that's a lead. And

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Speaker 3: in terms of the foster mum's evidence about those two cars,

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Speaker 3: she says she saw and I've spoken to her about this,

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Speaker 3: She didn't remember them at the time. She remembers seeing them,

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Speaker 3: but I think it's a day or two days later

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Speaker 3: she's driving out to the airport to pick up quite

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Speaker 3: a lot of family and friends came at the time

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Speaker 3: to support the family they're driving out for that, and

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Speaker 3: she says she remembers the cars at that point, and

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Speaker 3: that has allowed plenty of people to question her memory.

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Speaker 3: Both the police have questioned her memory about that, and

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Speaker 3: I mean, you've probably got an idea of the scale

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Speaker 3: of the internet interest in this, the kind of web

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Speaker 3: sleuths and the people who comment on this, and journalists

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Speaker 3: as well. It's always in dispute is to she really

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Speaker 3: see that, because if she did, why didn't she remember

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Speaker 3: it at the time. But this is where you get

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Speaker 3: into People's memories aren't perfect, and I've again done this

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Speaker 3: job long enough to see plenty of crimes where people's

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Speaker 3: memories are frankly all over the place. Particularly if she

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Speaker 3: is telling the truth and she was going through this

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Speaker 3: incredibly emotional thing, she'd lost her child, She's got fear, panic,

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Speaker 3: all of that. Her memory isn't quite right. But if

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Speaker 3: she did see those cars, then that is obviously potentially

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Speaker 3: significant because that's basically where William would have gone if

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Speaker 3: he had run down that slope, as the police initially believed.

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Speaker 3: But we've never been able to identify or pin down

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Speaker 3: those cars, And I don't know what you can read

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Speaker 3: into it.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of reading into things, though, you mentioned the internet

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Speaker 1: saluting that's gone on alongside the actual official investigation, where

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Speaker 1: people have been allowed to basically free for all their

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Speaker 1: opinions on what they feel has happened in the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of William's disappearance. What impact does that have on the

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Speaker 1: actual official investigation Because there are suppression orders in place

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Speaker 1: that means people like you and I I can't talk

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Speaker 1: about certain aspects of this case. But when that information

385
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Speaker 1: gets leaked, the internet can do with it as it pleases,

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Speaker 1: and I imagine that that doesn't always help police in

387
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Speaker 1: their investigating and trying to get to the bottom of this. No.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a really good question, and it's a

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Speaker 3: modern phenomena. It's a phenomena of our age with criminal investigations,

390
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Speaker 3: and you're seeing it around the world. There was a

391
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Speaker 3: murder investigation in I think the UK recently where the

392
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Speaker 3: police actually had to put out an appeal to internet

393
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Speaker 3: sleuths to stop going to the crime scene because people

394
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Speaker 3: going down there and filming themselves trying to solve the

395
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Speaker 3: case or kind of live streaming themselves at a crime scene,

396
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Speaker 3: and of course that doesn't help anyone for the same

397
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Speaker 3: reason they might trample on the evidence. But in this case,

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Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like it. The like you said,

399
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Speaker 3: just on that thing about suppression orders, this is the

400
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Speaker 3: most secretive police investigation I've ever seen in terms of

401
00:23:23,512 --> 00:23:28,111
Speaker 3: the sheer number of non publication orders, suppression orders, things

402
00:23:28,111 --> 00:23:31,552
Speaker 3: that you and I can't talk about doing this work.

403
00:23:31,591 --> 00:23:34,111
Speaker 3: We've got a spreadsheet of all the different court orders.

404
00:23:34,151 --> 00:23:37,232
Speaker 3: It's got about forty lines on it of different court

405
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Speaker 3: orders saying this can't be mentioned. At times there have

406
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Speaker 3: been suppression orders on the existence of the suppression orders,

407
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Speaker 3: and then they've been revoked, they've been reinstated. Different courts

408
00:23:50,272 --> 00:23:53,552
Speaker 3: have been unable to look at evidence because of suppression

409
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Speaker 3: orders by other incredibly secretive, some of it for good reasons,

410
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Speaker 3: some of it maybe not. But the Internet has broken

411
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Speaker 3: all of that. And what you've also seen as well

412
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Speaker 3: as like the names of people, the identities of people,

413
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Speaker 3: the workplaces of people splashed around the internet, which means

414
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Speaker 3: people have gone to their homes. So people have done

415
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Speaker 3: I've seen it online, people who are arranging to visit

416
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Speaker 3: the foster parents' houses almost as a social thing, to

417
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Speaker 3: take photos of themselves. People have taken photos of themselves

418
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Speaker 3: in court, which is actually illegal and kind of posted

419
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Speaker 3: them online. Is like souvenirs. But where it gets damaging.

420
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Speaker 3: To go to your question about damaging the investigation is

421
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Speaker 3: confidential evidence from the investigation, like witness statements, police records

422
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Speaker 3: has been leaked and posted online, so you can't remember.

423
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Speaker 3: At the heart of this is a three year old boy,

424
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Speaker 3: and the search to find that three year old boy,

425
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Speaker 3: and if he is no longer with us, to bring

426
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Speaker 3: whoever did that to justice surely the most important thing.

427
00:25:08,232 --> 00:25:12,872
Speaker 3: And yet people who surround this case, including journalists I'm

428
00:25:12,871 --> 00:25:16,871
Speaker 3: not exempting us or myself from this, but particularly online,

429
00:25:17,272 --> 00:25:21,911
Speaker 3: have been sharing witness statements, have been sharing police records.

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Speaker 3: Some of them were posted on a website called big Footy,

431
00:25:27,111 --> 00:25:31,032
Speaker 3: and that is hugely damaging because if any of those

432
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Speaker 3: potential witnesses become suspects end up being charged, all that

433
00:25:37,032 --> 00:25:39,751
Speaker 3: evidence gives them lines of defense in court that they

434
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Speaker 3: wouldn't have otherwise, and it can reveal the police's hand.

435
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Speaker 3: It's a very strange kind of obsessive tendency among some

436
00:25:49,752 --> 00:25:53,872
Speaker 3: people to kind of parade what they've got, and then

437
00:25:53,871 --> 00:25:57,511
Speaker 3: the question comes down to who leaked this information, and

438
00:25:57,552 --> 00:26:00,711
Speaker 3: why did they leak this information, and what did they

439
00:26:00,712 --> 00:26:05,391
Speaker 3: think they were doing or hoping to gain from it.

440
00:26:06,472 --> 00:26:09,272
Speaker 3: This case is unlike any other I've seen on a

441
00:26:09,311 --> 00:26:11,232
Speaker 3: number of levels, but particularly on that.

442
00:26:13,391 --> 00:26:16,471
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Claire Murphy.

443
00:26:16,631 --> 00:26:19,552
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Dan Box, host of the Witness podcast.

444
00:26:20,472 --> 00:26:21,592
Speaker 2: Up next, Dan.

445
00:26:21,472 --> 00:26:24,711
Speaker 1: Shares the original list of suspects in this case and

446
00:26:24,792 --> 00:26:27,272
Speaker 1: explains why most of them were eventually ruled out.

447
00:26:30,431 --> 00:26:34,512
Speaker 2: You mentioned suspects. There are potential suspects. There's a list of.

448
00:26:34,871 --> 00:26:38,992
Speaker 1: Persons of interest, which is like it seems ludicrously long,

449
00:26:39,311 --> 00:26:40,792
Speaker 1: like hundreds of people.

450
00:26:40,911 --> 00:26:42,752
Speaker 3: It was hundreds at one point.

451
00:26:42,871 --> 00:26:47,752
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but then there was actually a smaller list

452
00:26:47,792 --> 00:26:52,671
Speaker 1: of potential suspects, and they included people who lived in

453
00:26:52,712 --> 00:26:56,831
Speaker 1: the Kendal area who were known offenders. And I mean,

454
00:26:56,992 --> 00:26:59,672
Speaker 1: I'm not a local resident of Kendall. I don't know

455
00:26:59,792 --> 00:27:02,071
Speaker 1: how aware they would have been of just how many

456
00:27:02,151 --> 00:27:08,671
Speaker 1: people with especially sexually related crimes amongst them. But can

457
00:27:08,712 --> 00:27:10,671
Speaker 1: you give us an idea of who some of these

458
00:27:11,512 --> 00:27:16,472
Speaker 1: people were and how they were eventually kind of ruled

459
00:27:16,472 --> 00:27:18,311
Speaker 1: out or were they ruled out? Are they because we

460
00:27:18,351 --> 00:27:21,111
Speaker 1: still don't have any kind of resolution here, we don't

461
00:27:21,111 --> 00:27:23,672
Speaker 1: really know if they're still persons of interest or suspects

462
00:27:23,752 --> 00:27:23,911
Speaker 1: or what.

463
00:27:25,351 --> 00:27:28,711
Speaker 3: Okay, so again, long story with all of this, but

464
00:27:28,831 --> 00:27:31,392
Speaker 3: are really important still it in your right to highlight it?

465
00:27:31,911 --> 00:27:34,911
Speaker 3: So persons of interest is a term the police used

466
00:27:34,911 --> 00:27:39,552
Speaker 3: to basically mean someone they want to know more about.

467
00:27:40,151 --> 00:27:44,831
Speaker 3: It's really broad, and the police drew up this list

468
00:27:44,831 --> 00:27:47,432
Speaker 3: that eventually became hundreds of people, and then they divided

469
00:27:47,431 --> 00:27:51,592
Speaker 3: them into kind of low priority, medium priority, high priority,

470
00:27:51,631 --> 00:27:56,272
Speaker 3: and then in the high priority they'd never call them suspects.

471
00:27:56,311 --> 00:27:59,671
Speaker 3: But obviously the line between person of interest and suspect

472
00:27:59,792 --> 00:28:04,391
Speaker 3: is permeable at that point, and some of them clearly

473
00:28:04,391 --> 00:28:08,751
Speaker 3: got elevated to being a suspects by the police. But

474
00:28:08,871 --> 00:28:13,992
Speaker 3: initially they drew such a wide net. You're right. Known

475
00:28:14,151 --> 00:28:19,472
Speaker 3: child offenders were a huge part of this, and terrifyingly

476
00:28:19,552 --> 00:28:22,151
Speaker 3: for those people who lived there. One thing that the

477
00:28:22,151 --> 00:28:26,391
Speaker 3: William Tirele investigation revealed was the sheer number of known

478
00:28:26,472 --> 00:28:31,711
Speaker 3: child offenders in that area. I can't tell you the

479
00:28:31,792 --> 00:28:35,391
Speaker 3: number because it's one of those things that is suppressed

480
00:28:35,431 --> 00:28:38,671
Speaker 3: by different court orders. But I can tell you the

481
00:28:38,752 --> 00:28:41,152
Speaker 3: number is, or the numbers that I've been told, are

482
00:28:41,272 --> 00:28:44,912
Speaker 3: far higher than I would ever have expected, and far

483
00:28:45,032 --> 00:28:47,632
Speaker 3: higher than those who did live there would ever have

484
00:28:47,671 --> 00:28:50,072
Speaker 3: hoped to have seen. And then at one point the

485
00:28:50,112 --> 00:28:53,711
Speaker 3: police basically draw one kilometer radius around Kendall on that

486
00:28:53,832 --> 00:28:56,312
Speaker 3: day and say to people, you need to tell us

487
00:28:57,032 --> 00:28:59,152
Speaker 3: why you were there. If you were there, why you

488
00:28:59,152 --> 00:29:01,792
Speaker 3: were there, why we should exclude you. So people come

489
00:29:01,832 --> 00:29:05,112
Speaker 3: onto the list for that reason. And then there's the

490
00:29:05,152 --> 00:29:09,392
Speaker 3: people with actual connections to the family, connections to the house.

491
00:29:10,512 --> 00:29:13,432
Speaker 3: A couple of different tradesmen called the house that day

492
00:29:13,472 --> 00:29:16,592
Speaker 3: about different jobs, straight onto the list for that reason.

493
00:29:16,632 --> 00:29:20,512
Speaker 3: So the net is thrown very wide to scoop people up,

494
00:29:20,592 --> 00:29:23,392
Speaker 3: and then the police start working through it. I mean,

495
00:29:23,431 --> 00:29:27,752
Speaker 3: the scale of that investigation is national. Information is sent

496
00:29:27,792 --> 00:29:30,032
Speaker 3: to police forces around the country. Can you chase this

497
00:29:30,112 --> 00:29:32,911
Speaker 3: person down? Can you ask these questions? It all comes

498
00:29:32,952 --> 00:29:36,271
Speaker 3: back and you can imagine the kind of sheer data

499
00:29:36,352 --> 00:29:39,511
Speaker 3: that comes back. It's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of

500
00:29:39,632 --> 00:29:43,152
Speaker 3: people generating thousands of pages of documents. This person says

501
00:29:43,192 --> 00:29:45,671
Speaker 3: they were there, We've checked this alibi, we checked that.

502
00:29:46,832 --> 00:29:49,751
Speaker 3: But out of it you do start to focus on

503
00:29:49,832 --> 00:29:55,112
Speaker 3: a few and then, most recently at the inquest just

504
00:29:55,152 --> 00:30:00,792
Speaker 3: before Christmas, we heard this really strange testimony which bothered

505
00:30:00,792 --> 00:30:03,552
Speaker 3: me at the time and hasn't been really widely reported,

506
00:30:04,272 --> 00:30:07,592
Speaker 3: which is that very recently the last few years, when

507
00:30:07,592 --> 00:30:11,032
Speaker 3: the police have started to focus on Williams Foster Mum,

508
00:30:11,872 --> 00:30:16,272
Speaker 3: who I should say absolutely repeatedly and publicly denies any

509
00:30:16,352 --> 00:30:19,632
Speaker 3: involvement in what happened. But around this time that they

510
00:30:19,671 --> 00:30:22,431
Speaker 3: start to focus on her, we heard this evidence that

511
00:30:22,472 --> 00:30:25,672
Speaker 3: this list of persons of interest was getting reduced very

512
00:30:25,792 --> 00:30:29,552
Speaker 3: very quickly. Literally dozens, if not hundreds of people were

513
00:30:29,552 --> 00:30:32,832
Speaker 3: being scratched off it for different reasons, to deal with

514
00:30:32,911 --> 00:30:34,912
Speaker 3: whether or not they had a driver's license or this

515
00:30:35,192 --> 00:30:39,751
Speaker 3: or that, And it certainly seemed to me that that

516
00:30:39,911 --> 00:30:45,872
Speaker 3: list was being reduced far quicker than perhaps it should be,

517
00:30:46,272 --> 00:30:49,752
Speaker 3: to a far smaller number of remaining persons of interest.

518
00:30:50,192 --> 00:30:53,912
Speaker 3: And obviously we ultimately know that the police settled their

519
00:30:53,952 --> 00:30:57,951
Speaker 3: attentions on Williams Foster Mum, despite the fact that the

520
00:30:57,952 --> 00:31:03,392
Speaker 3: inquest revealed no evidence against her. So there's all these

521
00:31:03,512 --> 00:31:05,712
Speaker 3: questions that do still need to be resolved.

522
00:31:06,992 --> 00:31:10,552
Speaker 1: You did interview the former ly detective on this case,

523
00:31:10,592 --> 00:31:13,872
Speaker 1: Gary Jubilin He was removed from the case and then

524
00:31:13,952 --> 00:31:18,352
Speaker 1: later convicted of criminal charges over his conduct during this investigation. Yes,

525
00:31:18,512 --> 00:31:22,191
Speaker 1: he was, Yeah, and I understand that his conduct was

526
00:31:23,392 --> 00:31:28,751
Speaker 1: will included his discussions with one of these people of interest. Yes,

527
00:31:29,032 --> 00:31:33,272
Speaker 1: how did speaking to Gary about this help shape your

528
00:31:33,392 --> 00:31:35,832
Speaker 1: view of how this case was being handled and how

529
00:31:36,512 --> 00:31:39,791
Speaker 1: that list of persons of interest or suspects, whatever they

530
00:31:39,792 --> 00:31:43,552
Speaker 1: were at the time, How did that form your opinion

531
00:31:43,592 --> 00:31:45,632
Speaker 1: on how that investigation was being led.

532
00:31:47,072 --> 00:31:50,792
Speaker 3: Okay, So Gary is one of three detectives who've led

533
00:31:50,792 --> 00:31:54,671
Speaker 3: this investigation over the years. He was the middle one essentially,

534
00:31:55,431 --> 00:31:58,072
Speaker 3: and full disclosure, Gary and I go back a long way.

535
00:31:58,512 --> 00:32:00,872
Speaker 3: So I first got to know Gary as a news

536
00:32:00,911 --> 00:32:04,191
Speaker 3: reporter when he was working homicides on a different case.

537
00:32:04,832 --> 00:32:07,352
Speaker 3: I reported on this case he was working on it.

538
00:32:07,992 --> 00:32:12,991
Speaker 3: I subsequently ghost wrote a couple of books memoirs of

539
00:32:13,032 --> 00:32:15,552
Speaker 3: his after I left the paper I was working on.

540
00:32:16,152 --> 00:32:19,872
Speaker 3: And now I work with Gary because he's left the Cops.

541
00:32:19,911 --> 00:32:22,952
Speaker 3: As you said, he was effectively thrown out, and he's

542
00:32:22,952 --> 00:32:25,431
Speaker 3: now got a podcast, and I cooperate on that. I

543
00:32:25,512 --> 00:32:28,911
Speaker 3: kind of oversee that. So he and I have a

544
00:32:28,952 --> 00:32:31,671
Speaker 3: professional and a personal relationship, and we've spoken about that

545
00:32:31,712 --> 00:32:35,592
Speaker 3: publicly at length, and we both get a lot of

546
00:32:35,632 --> 00:32:38,112
Speaker 3: criticism for that, particularly over whether or not I can

547
00:32:38,112 --> 00:32:40,951
Speaker 3: actually report on any of this at all objectively because

548
00:32:40,992 --> 00:32:43,592
Speaker 3: of that connection to Gary, to which the only answer

549
00:32:43,592 --> 00:32:48,632
Speaker 3: I can give is yes, I have that connection to Gary. Yes,

550
00:32:48,712 --> 00:32:53,152
Speaker 3: it inevitably shapes the way I think. I don't agree

551
00:32:53,192 --> 00:32:55,951
Speaker 3: with Gary on everything at all. And I've said this

552
00:32:56,032 --> 00:32:58,792
Speaker 3: to him, and you just got to judge my reporting

553
00:33:00,192 --> 00:33:02,792
Speaker 3: by looking at it and saying, has he done this fairly?

554
00:33:02,872 --> 00:33:06,792
Speaker 3: Despite the connection Gary is in work on this instigation

555
00:33:08,832 --> 00:33:12,552
Speaker 3: probably broke him, if I'm honest, I think he works

556
00:33:12,592 --> 00:33:17,832
Speaker 3: so hard, and because it was a missing child, and

557
00:33:17,872 --> 00:33:21,192
Speaker 3: he said this before, if you don't know the child

558
00:33:21,392 --> 00:33:25,912
Speaker 3: is definitely dead, then every day matters. So they were

559
00:33:26,032 --> 00:33:28,872
Speaker 3: that whole task for Strikeforce, So we were throwing everything

560
00:33:28,911 --> 00:33:32,352
Speaker 3: they had at it, and ultimately it destroyed his career.

561
00:33:32,952 --> 00:33:35,671
Speaker 3: But in terms of talking to Gary shaping how the

562
00:33:35,752 --> 00:33:40,392
Speaker 3: police went about it, I've seen the toll it's taken

563
00:33:40,872 --> 00:33:44,392
Speaker 3: on the cops who worked this case, going right back

564
00:33:44,392 --> 00:33:46,431
Speaker 3: to the start, and there have been dozens have worked

565
00:33:46,431 --> 00:33:50,072
Speaker 3: on it over the years, and I've seen internal emails

566
00:33:50,112 --> 00:33:52,992
Speaker 3: that bear this up. You know, it's a devastatingly hard

567
00:33:53,072 --> 00:33:56,832
Speaker 3: case to work on and a devastatingly hard case to

568
00:33:57,072 --> 00:34:01,832
Speaker 3: let go, and that desire to solve it, to bring

569
00:34:01,872 --> 00:34:05,312
Speaker 3: that boy home if possible, or at least bring justice

570
00:34:05,312 --> 00:34:08,712
Speaker 3: to the families. I think that has driven the police

571
00:34:09,431 --> 00:34:13,792
Speaker 3: to pursue this case so hard, and they have done that,

572
00:34:13,952 --> 00:34:20,352
Speaker 3: and they have focused on certain people with such intensity

573
00:34:20,872 --> 00:34:24,231
Speaker 3: that I think they have actually caused damage to those

574
00:34:24,272 --> 00:34:29,031
Speaker 3: people's lives. You can talk about different people who became suspects,

575
00:34:29,031 --> 00:34:32,392
Speaker 3: whose lives have been upended, held up to media scrutiny,

576
00:34:32,872 --> 00:34:37,352
Speaker 3: charged with things, accused of things. Their families have been

577
00:34:37,431 --> 00:34:42,231
Speaker 3: told they're involved. The damage done by the police investigation

578
00:34:42,471 --> 00:34:45,832
Speaker 3: because the police are trying to do the right thing

579
00:34:45,872 --> 00:34:50,032
Speaker 3: and solve this crime, is immense to a huge number

580
00:34:50,031 --> 00:34:55,112
Speaker 3: of people, and I have probably seen that closest from

581
00:34:55,431 --> 00:34:58,112
Speaker 3: the time I've spent talking to Gary.

582
00:34:59,471 --> 00:35:02,511
Speaker 1: You mentioned that a brief of evidence has been sent

583
00:35:02,551 --> 00:35:05,392
Speaker 1: off to the DPP to see whether charges can be

584
00:35:05,471 --> 00:35:08,992
Speaker 1: laid against William's foster mother. Yeah, but you've also mentioned

585
00:35:09,031 --> 00:35:13,151
Speaker 1: that the original scene here is that evidence, whatever it

586
00:35:13,272 --> 00:35:15,352
Speaker 1: might have been at the time of William's disappearance, is

587
00:35:15,431 --> 00:35:18,672
Speaker 1: essentially gone due to the handling of the crime scene itself.

588
00:35:20,072 --> 00:35:23,792
Speaker 1: Has there been any mention in any of the interactions

589
00:35:23,832 --> 00:35:27,472
Speaker 1: you've had with anyone close to this case about why

590
00:35:27,911 --> 00:35:31,312
Speaker 1: the police decided to shift to looking at William's foster

591
00:35:31,431 --> 00:35:36,191
Speaker 1: mother as the main suspect because she has seemingly been

592
00:35:36,431 --> 00:35:40,152
Speaker 1: very helpful in trying to find William from the very beginning,

593
00:35:40,431 --> 00:35:42,591
Speaker 1: and police have gone to great lengths to try and

594
00:35:42,632 --> 00:35:43,711
Speaker 1: seemingly catch her out.

595
00:35:43,792 --> 00:35:46,631
Speaker 2: They have bugged her vehicle, they have.

596
00:35:47,031 --> 00:35:49,712
Speaker 1: You know, listened in on conversations that she's had with

597
00:35:49,752 --> 00:35:53,552
Speaker 1: her husband. Like, they've gone through a lot up until

598
00:35:53,551 --> 00:35:56,431
Speaker 1: this point. It's been five years now since they kind

599
00:35:56,431 --> 00:35:58,832
Speaker 1: of came out and said she's our main suspect. But

600
00:35:58,991 --> 00:36:01,232
Speaker 1: what if any evidence are they basing this on.

601
00:36:02,551 --> 00:36:04,991
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, at this

602
00:36:05,072 --> 00:36:08,591
Speaker 3: point it's probably the key question, what have they got?

603
00:36:08,632 --> 00:36:11,832
Speaker 3: Because I mean you might remember I do. There was

604
00:36:11,872 --> 00:36:15,472
Speaker 3: a front page on the Daily Telegraphs going back about

605
00:36:15,752 --> 00:36:19,991
Speaker 3: five years now, which big front page basically said new

606
00:36:20,031 --> 00:36:23,951
Speaker 3: suspect in William Tool investigation, and it said the police

607
00:36:24,072 --> 00:36:26,511
Speaker 3: are confident they are going to solve this case. They

608
00:36:26,551 --> 00:36:29,632
Speaker 3: are close to solving the case. And I remember seeing

609
00:36:29,672 --> 00:36:33,152
Speaker 3: that and thinking, well, they must have got something. You

610
00:36:33,232 --> 00:36:38,872
Speaker 3: would not be that forthright in briefing that journalist. And

611
00:36:38,911 --> 00:36:41,672
Speaker 3: I've spoken to the journalist. If you didn't know you

612
00:36:41,832 --> 00:36:45,832
Speaker 3: had something good. And before this, the police were looking

613
00:36:46,232 --> 00:36:48,591
Speaker 3: at the inquest, which was running at that point. We're

614
00:36:48,592 --> 00:36:52,072
Speaker 3: looking very much at somebody different, a different person of interest,

615
00:36:52,112 --> 00:36:55,352
Speaker 3: a guy called Frank Abbott, who is a convicted pedophar

616
00:36:55,592 --> 00:36:58,512
Speaker 3: who has also denied any involvement in what happened to William.

617
00:36:59,352 --> 00:37:04,751
Speaker 3: But there's this moment, and it's in twenty twenty from

618
00:37:04,752 --> 00:37:08,312
Speaker 3: the from the top of mine, remember the exact month.

619
00:37:09,031 --> 00:37:13,272
Speaker 3: But there's a review of the investigation, and that review

620
00:37:13,551 --> 00:37:17,152
Speaker 3: shifts the focus from where it was going, which was

621
00:37:17,712 --> 00:37:22,031
Speaker 3: largely Frank Abbott at that point, onto Williams Foster Mum.

622
00:37:22,592 --> 00:37:27,752
Speaker 3: But what it also coincides with is Gary Jubilin leaves

623
00:37:27,752 --> 00:37:32,591
Speaker 3: the investigation. Shortly before that, Gary Jubilin was taking the

624
00:37:32,632 --> 00:37:36,272
Speaker 3: investigation in a different direction. He was focusing on somebody else,

625
00:37:37,312 --> 00:37:40,632
Speaker 3: and there was surveillance operations going. There was a huge

626
00:37:40,752 --> 00:37:49,191
Speaker 3: police investigation being run into that person. Gary leaves in

627
00:37:49,232 --> 00:37:51,591
Speaker 3: a really bad way. Like you said, he's effectively thrown

628
00:37:51,632 --> 00:37:55,272
Speaker 3: off the police. He's taken off the investigation, he retires,

629
00:37:55,431 --> 00:37:59,752
Speaker 3: he's charged and convicted with I legally recording conversations with

630
00:37:59,832 --> 00:38:03,111
Speaker 3: this other person. And at that point I think the

631
00:38:03,152 --> 00:38:06,591
Speaker 3: police want nothing more to do with Gary, and it's

632
00:38:06,632 --> 00:38:09,392
Speaker 3: possible the police want nothing more to do with anything

633
00:38:09,392 --> 00:38:12,712
Speaker 3: that Gary touched, and maybe they just say we're not

634
00:38:12,792 --> 00:38:17,032
Speaker 3: going to look at that person anymore because Gary's hands

635
00:38:17,031 --> 00:38:21,152
Speaker 3: are all over it, and we know Gary in their minds,

636
00:38:21,152 --> 00:38:23,991
Speaker 3: Gary's bad. Gary's got a habit of falling out with

637
00:38:24,072 --> 00:38:27,911
Speaker 3: people professionally, and I say that as a friend, and

638
00:38:27,951 --> 00:38:29,352
Speaker 3: I think he fell out with a lot of people

639
00:38:29,431 --> 00:38:31,712
Speaker 3: in the cops. I don't think he'd dispute with that,

640
00:38:31,832 --> 00:38:33,991
Speaker 3: and that may have also colored the way they thought

641
00:38:33,991 --> 00:38:37,511
Speaker 3: about him leaving. So they steer away, and they look

642
00:38:37,551 --> 00:38:41,752
Speaker 3: at the investigation, and they find a new person of interest,

643
00:38:41,792 --> 00:38:44,991
Speaker 3: which is William's foster mum. Now the cops have looked

644
00:38:44,991 --> 00:38:49,472
Speaker 3: at her before, of course, because statistically it's overwhelmingly likely

645
00:38:49,951 --> 00:38:53,152
Speaker 3: if someone harms a child, it's the person closest to them.

646
00:38:53,392 --> 00:38:56,392
Speaker 3: So the first police investigation I can remember talking to

647
00:38:56,431 --> 00:38:59,792
Speaker 3: a senior cop in the days after William went missing

648
00:39:00,192 --> 00:39:02,712
Speaker 3: and being told they looked at the biological family and

649
00:39:02,752 --> 00:39:07,591
Speaker 3: the foster family and written them out. Then Gary takes over,

650
00:39:07,672 --> 00:39:10,671
Speaker 3: He does it again, writes them out. Years later, one

651
00:39:10,712 --> 00:39:13,352
Speaker 3: of Gary's colleagues says, we need to look at the

652
00:39:13,352 --> 00:39:16,832
Speaker 3: foster parents again, so they bring them in, interview them,

653
00:39:17,112 --> 00:39:20,912
Speaker 3: put bugs in the car, everything you said, and decide

654
00:39:20,911 --> 00:39:22,832
Speaker 3: there isn't the evidence. Again, so they've been written out

655
00:39:22,832 --> 00:39:27,272
Speaker 3: three times, but the police come back to them. Now.

656
00:39:27,752 --> 00:39:32,112
Speaker 3: In the most recent inquest hearings, we heard a lot

657
00:39:32,152 --> 00:39:34,431
Speaker 3: of what the police had got, or we heard what

658
00:39:34,511 --> 00:39:37,631
Speaker 3: the inquest was prepared to make public, and I got

659
00:39:37,632 --> 00:39:41,031
Speaker 3: to be honest, it didn't amount to anything. And the

660
00:39:41,112 --> 00:39:44,352
Speaker 3: lawyer leading the inquest he said, there's no evidence of

661
00:39:44,352 --> 00:39:48,552
Speaker 3: what happened to William. So we don't know what, if anything,

662
00:39:48,592 --> 00:39:51,112
Speaker 3: the police have got that made them change their mind,

663
00:39:51,272 --> 00:39:57,472
Speaker 3: except potentially, statistically, it's most likely that it's the people

664
00:39:57,511 --> 00:40:02,111
Speaker 3: closest to them, and maybe that was it.

665
00:40:02,951 --> 00:40:06,111
Speaker 1: Did we ever, then find out what led to that

666
00:40:06,431 --> 00:40:08,192
Speaker 1: nude search that we saw. I believe it was in

667
00:40:08,232 --> 00:40:11,151
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one where all of a sudden officers were

668
00:40:11,192 --> 00:40:14,631
Speaker 1: out back around Kendall, you know, digging up areas which

669
00:40:14,672 --> 00:40:18,392
Speaker 1: we presume had already been cleared in the immediate search after,

670
00:40:18,431 --> 00:40:20,952
Speaker 1: because as you mentioned, there were hundreds of people out there.

671
00:40:21,072 --> 00:40:24,832
Speaker 1: They were draining dams, they were you know, clearing waterways. Like,

672
00:40:24,951 --> 00:40:27,272
Speaker 1: what evidence did they have to lead them to renew

673
00:40:27,272 --> 00:40:29,832
Speaker 1: that search, which we have later found out or not

674
00:40:29,951 --> 00:40:32,552
Speaker 1: found out whether they found anything in that.

675
00:40:32,471 --> 00:40:35,551
Speaker 3: Search, although I think if they found something, we'd know

676
00:40:35,632 --> 00:40:39,472
Speaker 3: about it. The other thing like this also came after

677
00:40:39,511 --> 00:40:42,111
Speaker 3: the foster parents, and I'm not suggesting a link, but

678
00:40:42,272 --> 00:40:44,792
Speaker 3: just to explain the context. This came after the foster

679
00:40:44,911 --> 00:40:49,471
Speaker 3: parents started to openly and privately criticize the police for

680
00:40:49,632 --> 00:40:53,872
Speaker 3: not doing enough. So there were media interviews whether Foster

681
00:40:53,991 --> 00:40:57,032
Speaker 3: mum criticized the police for not doing enough to search

682
00:40:57,031 --> 00:41:00,431
Speaker 3: for William or to find him. And I've seen letters

683
00:41:00,511 --> 00:41:03,352
Speaker 3: that she sent to the police commissioner saying you're not

684
00:41:03,392 --> 00:41:06,551
Speaker 3: doing enough. You're not even answering our phone calls. We're

685
00:41:06,592 --> 00:41:09,792
Speaker 3: going to start lobbying politicians to get more support for

686
00:41:09,832 --> 00:41:15,192
Speaker 3: the investigation. So there's a real honestly, there's a fallout

687
00:41:15,232 --> 00:41:17,672
Speaker 3: between the Foster family and the police at this point.

688
00:41:18,392 --> 00:41:24,152
Speaker 3: And then the police launched that massive investigation. And again

689
00:41:24,192 --> 00:41:26,271
Speaker 3: this is a reason to think the police have got

690
00:41:26,272 --> 00:41:31,352
Speaker 3: something because that investigate, that search would have cost millions.

691
00:41:31,551 --> 00:41:37,432
Speaker 3: There were hundreds of police involved. They sieved the earth.

692
00:41:37,511 --> 00:41:40,471
Speaker 3: They took out fifteen tons of earth and they sieved it.

693
00:41:40,951 --> 00:41:43,312
Speaker 3: And if you go up there, you can see the bush,

694
00:41:43,911 --> 00:41:45,352
Speaker 3: and you look at the photos of the time it

695
00:41:45,392 --> 00:41:48,231
Speaker 3: was cleared of all vegetation and then it was dug.

696
00:41:48,431 --> 00:41:51,112
Speaker 3: The earth was dug. To do that on the scale

697
00:41:51,152 --> 00:41:55,872
Speaker 3: they did was unprecedented and hugely expensive, and you can

698
00:41:55,951 --> 00:41:59,431
Speaker 3: only think they would have done that because someone in

699
00:41:59,431 --> 00:42:01,511
Speaker 3: the police force is saying, well, we're paying for this.

700
00:42:01,911 --> 00:42:03,591
Speaker 3: You would only think they would have done that if

701
00:42:03,632 --> 00:42:08,832
Speaker 3: they had something solid. And yet years and years later

702
00:42:10,352 --> 00:42:14,511
Speaker 3: we've seen nothing at all either that led to that

703
00:42:14,632 --> 00:42:18,472
Speaker 3: search or that was found as a result of that search.

704
00:42:19,911 --> 00:42:22,111
Speaker 3: I mean, the best they've got, thinking back to the

705
00:42:22,152 --> 00:42:27,592
Speaker 3: inquest in November last year, was an argument that potentially

706
00:42:27,672 --> 00:42:31,951
Speaker 3: the reason they hadn't found William was that maybe some

707
00:42:32,152 --> 00:42:37,312
Speaker 3: animals had taken the bones and that lost for that reason,

708
00:42:37,511 --> 00:42:39,951
Speaker 3: and the coroner didn't even want to hear it. The

709
00:42:39,991 --> 00:42:42,751
Speaker 3: police tried to get it into evidence and the coroner said,

710
00:42:42,792 --> 00:42:45,392
Speaker 3: I've refused to hear that before, I will refuse to

711
00:42:45,431 --> 00:42:49,272
Speaker 3: hear that again. I think the coroner and the police

712
00:42:49,352 --> 00:42:53,551
Speaker 3: are also not united in their view of how this

713
00:42:53,672 --> 00:42:57,992
Speaker 3: investigation should have been run. That's been made quite clear

714
00:42:58,031 --> 00:43:02,752
Speaker 3: in the inquest. In quite gentlemanly, loyally, legally terms. The

715
00:43:02,832 --> 00:43:07,471
Speaker 3: lawyer leading the inquest has made it quite that what

716
00:43:07,511 --> 00:43:10,151
Speaker 3: the police are doing now, focusing on the foster mum

717
00:43:10,192 --> 00:43:13,232
Speaker 3: and the search they've been doing most recently, is not

718
00:43:14,312 --> 00:43:16,832
Speaker 3: to do with the inquest. It's being done by the

719
00:43:16,832 --> 00:43:19,752
Speaker 3: police and not by the police and the coroner together.

720
00:43:20,752 --> 00:43:24,032
Speaker 3: So I think where we are now is a real

721
00:43:24,431 --> 00:43:27,592
Speaker 3: tangled mess and it's kind of tragic.

722
00:43:29,431 --> 00:43:34,031
Speaker 1: Next, Dan reveals new information about an original suspect who

723
00:43:34,072 --> 00:43:37,832
Speaker 1: told people in his community that he knew exactly where.

724
00:43:37,592 --> 00:43:38,592
Speaker 2: William's been buried.

725
00:43:41,431 --> 00:43:44,112
Speaker 1: Well, you obviously have been following this in quest very closely,

726
00:43:45,031 --> 00:43:47,312
Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, certain things have come up that

727
00:43:47,352 --> 00:43:50,872
Speaker 1: you have felt have been under reported or have kind

728
00:43:50,872 --> 00:43:53,352
Speaker 1: of flown under the radar. And one of those things

729
00:43:53,392 --> 00:43:56,712
Speaker 1: that's really piqued your interest is Frank Abbott's role in this.

730
00:43:56,911 --> 00:43:59,551
Speaker 1: And you've mentioned him already in that he was a

731
00:43:59,551 --> 00:44:02,631
Speaker 1: person of interest at one stage and fatally featured quite

732
00:44:02,632 --> 00:44:05,832
Speaker 1: heavily in reporting back in the beginning when William Terrele

733
00:44:05,872 --> 00:44:09,911
Speaker 1: went miss in the aftermath of that, but he kind

734
00:44:09,911 --> 00:44:12,832
Speaker 1: of had a habit of sort of putting himself back

735
00:44:12,872 --> 00:44:16,232
Speaker 1: in the spotlight as this investigation kind of unfolded. Can

736
00:44:16,272 --> 00:44:17,872
Speaker 1: you just give us an idea of who Frank Abbott

737
00:44:17,911 --> 00:44:20,631
Speaker 1: is and how he's been in and out of his

738
00:44:20,672 --> 00:44:22,192
Speaker 1: investigation over the years.

739
00:44:23,272 --> 00:44:28,792
Speaker 3: Frank Abbot is I've heard so many stories about Frank

740
00:44:28,792 --> 00:44:31,431
Speaker 3: Abbot over the last five months. We've been focusing on

741
00:44:31,471 --> 00:44:35,911
Speaker 3: Frank for about five months now, and we've been up

742
00:44:35,951 --> 00:44:37,671
Speaker 3: to where he lived. We've spoken to the people who

743
00:44:37,712 --> 00:44:40,672
Speaker 3: knew him, We've spoken to family. I've heard nothing good

744
00:44:40,951 --> 00:44:45,312
Speaker 3: about Frank Abbot. He's a convicted Pedophile's in jail for

745
00:44:45,712 --> 00:44:49,991
Speaker 3: sexually assaulting three children, two girls and a boy. The

746
00:44:50,031 --> 00:44:52,911
Speaker 3: people who lived in the town he spent a lot

747
00:44:52,951 --> 00:44:55,872
Speaker 3: of time in, which is called John's River. It felt

748
00:44:55,872 --> 00:44:59,792
Speaker 3: everyone we spoke to seemed to know that Frank was

749
00:44:59,832 --> 00:45:05,671
Speaker 3: a child defender. Everyone had heard stories about Frank doing

750
00:45:05,672 --> 00:45:09,272
Speaker 3: things to children, being a danger to children, stories of

751
00:45:09,431 --> 00:45:13,312
Speaker 3: other crimes he'd committed, from petty crimes to sexual offenses.

752
00:45:14,232 --> 00:45:18,392
Speaker 3: No one had anything good to say about Frank at all.

753
00:45:19,232 --> 00:45:23,431
Speaker 3: And what troubled me about Frank is is he kind

754
00:45:23,431 --> 00:45:26,911
Speaker 3: of we first learned about Frank. I think when the

755
00:45:26,951 --> 00:45:30,951
Speaker 3: inquest started and there were these stories, like you said,

756
00:45:30,951 --> 00:45:34,312
Speaker 3: of him putting himself forward. He called up the police

757
00:45:34,431 --> 00:45:36,272
Speaker 3: and asked to be put straight through to the strike

758
00:45:36,352 --> 00:45:39,752
Speaker 3: force investigating William and told them that they should be

759
00:45:39,832 --> 00:45:43,191
Speaker 3: looking at someone else, another person and turns out another

760
00:45:43,232 --> 00:45:48,631
Speaker 3: convicted pedophile. He would tell his neighbors that he knew

761
00:45:48,672 --> 00:45:51,751
Speaker 3: where William was buried, or that he knew where he'd

762
00:45:51,792 --> 00:45:53,312
Speaker 3: been in an area of the bush, and he could

763
00:45:53,392 --> 00:45:56,312
Speaker 3: smell a body, and he knew the difference between a

764
00:45:56,392 --> 00:46:01,071
Speaker 3: human body and a kangaroo. Like he'd say genuinely disturbing things. He,

765
00:46:01,991 --> 00:46:06,511
Speaker 3: according to evidence before the inquest, told some children that

766
00:46:06,551 --> 00:46:12,071
Speaker 3: he buried William Tioell in a suitcase. Things that are

767
00:46:13,592 --> 00:46:17,672
Speaker 3: genuinely unpleasant allegations. All of this is evidence before the inquest.

768
00:46:19,272 --> 00:46:23,192
Speaker 3: But he's making connections between himself and what happened to William,

769
00:46:23,272 --> 00:46:27,832
Speaker 3: and maybe that's just weird boasting. He wants people to

770
00:46:27,872 --> 00:46:30,752
Speaker 3: be afraid of him. He likes provoking a reaction. But

771
00:46:30,832 --> 00:46:34,711
Speaker 3: there's a definite pattern, and there's evidence before the inquest

772
00:46:35,152 --> 00:46:38,072
Speaker 3: that one of his close mates, a guy called Ray Porter,

773
00:46:38,352 --> 00:46:41,471
Speaker 3: who was very close to death at the time, told

774
00:46:41,752 --> 00:46:46,911
Speaker 3: a nurse that he had driven his mate north. I

775
00:46:46,951 --> 00:46:49,912
Speaker 3: think a day or so after William disappeared with William

776
00:46:49,991 --> 00:46:52,792
Speaker 3: till in the car and he didn't name the mate,

777
00:46:53,712 --> 00:46:56,591
Speaker 3: but one of his close mates was Frank, and the

778
00:46:56,632 --> 00:47:00,712
Speaker 3: police definitely looked at Freim. So we've got copies of

779
00:47:01,031 --> 00:47:04,272
Speaker 3: phone calls that Frank made in prison where he's now

780
00:47:04,312 --> 00:47:07,592
Speaker 3: serving time for these child sex offens where he talks

781
00:47:07,592 --> 00:47:09,712
Speaker 3: about how the police are looking at him and he

782
00:47:09,752 --> 00:47:11,991
Speaker 3: says I had nothing to do with it, but he

783
00:47:12,072 --> 00:47:16,352
Speaker 3: also says, you know that they are investigating whether he

784
00:47:16,431 --> 00:47:19,911
Speaker 3: went to that backyard and tempted William out with lollies

785
00:47:19,951 --> 00:47:22,552
Speaker 3: and ice cream. And you can hear Frank talking about

786
00:47:22,551 --> 00:47:25,832
Speaker 3: all of this on these tapes. So the police definitely

787
00:47:25,872 --> 00:47:30,751
Speaker 3: looked at him. But then it all went quiet. And

788
00:47:31,632 --> 00:47:37,032
Speaker 3: at the inquest, all this evidence about Frank, you expect

789
00:47:37,031 --> 00:47:41,192
Speaker 3: Frank to be called to answer questions, and then they didn't.

790
00:47:42,112 --> 00:47:43,951
Speaker 3: And if you go back to the media reports from

791
00:47:43,991 --> 00:47:47,392
Speaker 3: the time, everyone thought that there's media report saying today's

792
00:47:47,431 --> 00:47:50,471
Speaker 3: the day Frank is expected to answer questions, and then

793
00:47:50,511 --> 00:47:53,712
Speaker 3: it stops. And part of that I think is COVID

794
00:47:53,752 --> 00:47:56,991
Speaker 3: actually shut down the inquest for a bit. Part of

795
00:47:57,031 --> 00:47:59,952
Speaker 3: it might be the police around this time start looking

796
00:47:59,951 --> 00:48:04,471
Speaker 3: at the foster mum, but the coroner won't say why

797
00:48:04,592 --> 00:48:10,032
Speaker 3: Frank is not called. She's refused to make that decision public.

798
00:48:10,152 --> 00:48:12,511
Speaker 3: We've asked them, they didn't respond. They said they were

799
00:48:12,511 --> 00:48:15,392
Speaker 3: too busy. So we don't know why Frank has never

800
00:48:15,471 --> 00:48:18,712
Speaker 3: answered these questions, and there were all these unanswered questions

801
00:48:18,752 --> 00:48:21,672
Speaker 3: about him. So what we've done over the past about

802
00:48:21,712 --> 00:48:24,872
Speaker 3: five months now is just try and learn everything we

803
00:48:24,911 --> 00:48:25,911
Speaker 3: can about Frank.

804
00:48:26,352 --> 00:48:30,992
Speaker 1: One of the episodes of your podcast, you do talk

805
00:48:31,031 --> 00:48:36,632
Speaker 1: about a fairly shocking moment when a man who's living

806
00:48:36,632 --> 00:48:40,431
Speaker 1: in Frank's old house that you've gone to speak to

807
00:48:40,712 --> 00:48:45,192
Speaker 1: has kind of suggested that maybe Frank's brother has told

808
00:48:45,312 --> 00:48:47,072
Speaker 1: people about.

809
00:48:46,712 --> 00:48:48,992
Speaker 2: Frank Abbott's involvement in William Thiol's case.

810
00:48:50,672 --> 00:48:52,911
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of the things that shocked me.

811
00:48:53,752 --> 00:48:56,312
Speaker 3: So we were in John's River where Frank used to live,

812
00:48:56,991 --> 00:49:01,832
Speaker 3: just talking to everybody, and we talked to the neighbors

813
00:49:02,551 --> 00:49:04,672
Speaker 3: and eventually we think we're going to just try his house,

814
00:49:04,951 --> 00:49:08,912
Speaker 3: see who's there. Two men live there now the invite

815
00:49:08,991 --> 00:49:11,352
Speaker 3: us in. The younger man is talking about Frank and

816
00:49:11,392 --> 00:49:14,352
Speaker 3: he's telling the same sort of stories we've heard a

817
00:49:14,392 --> 00:49:17,392
Speaker 3: lot before. He talks about he'd heard that Frank took

818
00:49:17,592 --> 00:49:19,991
Speaker 3: girls and boys into the forest and tied them up

819
00:49:19,991 --> 00:49:23,711
Speaker 3: to trees and did something bad out there. I don't

820
00:49:23,752 --> 00:49:27,471
Speaker 3: know if that's true, but Frank has been convicted of

821
00:49:27,592 --> 00:49:30,151
Speaker 3: child sex offenses, so we know that that at least

822
00:49:30,232 --> 00:49:35,352
Speaker 3: is true. And then the guy's dad comes in and

823
00:49:36,872 --> 00:49:38,912
Speaker 3: the younger guy says, you should sit down with my dad,

824
00:49:39,312 --> 00:49:41,191
Speaker 3: and he starts talking to us, and we just say

825
00:49:41,192 --> 00:49:46,832
Speaker 3: we're interested in Frank, and he says, yeah. Frank's brother,

826
00:49:47,152 --> 00:49:51,111
Speaker 3: guy called Bluie. He always used to say Frank wasn't

827
00:49:51,152 --> 00:49:54,111
Speaker 3: involved in what happened to William, but just before he

828
00:49:54,232 --> 00:49:59,312
Speaker 3: died he said that Frank was involved and that William

829
00:49:59,592 --> 00:50:03,911
Speaker 3: was buried up on this He says, the big Bird Mountain,

830
00:50:04,752 --> 00:50:08,872
Speaker 3: just by that big tree there, And we we google

831
00:50:08,951 --> 00:50:11,352
Speaker 3: this later and it turns out there's a landmark there

832
00:50:11,392 --> 00:50:14,792
Speaker 3: called the Bird Tree. It's this massive eucalyptus tree deep

833
00:50:15,232 --> 00:50:21,471
Speaker 3: in really dark and quite spooky forest, really isolated, and

834
00:50:21,551 --> 00:50:23,671
Speaker 3: the bird tree is next to another giant tree called

835
00:50:23,712 --> 00:50:27,952
Speaker 3: ben Roon. So William disappears from Benerum Drive. No one's

836
00:50:28,031 --> 00:50:33,832
Speaker 3: ever searched there. But now we've got this disputed allegation

837
00:50:34,112 --> 00:50:38,992
Speaker 3: that Frank's brother was telling people that that's where William

838
00:50:39,112 --> 00:50:41,712
Speaker 3: was and that Frank was involved. So we go and

839
00:50:41,752 --> 00:50:45,392
Speaker 3: talk to the man's son, the guy that the old person.

840
00:50:45,431 --> 00:50:49,551
Speaker 3: The older man says, Bluie, Frank's brother told his son this.

841
00:50:50,352 --> 00:50:52,191
Speaker 3: We're going to talk to the sun and he says, look,

842
00:50:52,192 --> 00:50:56,631
Speaker 3: I don't remember that. But Blue never had anything good

843
00:50:56,672 --> 00:51:00,712
Speaker 3: to say about Frank, and Blue thought Frank deserved to

844
00:51:00,752 --> 00:51:03,112
Speaker 3: be in jail for things he'd done in his past,

845
00:51:04,471 --> 00:51:07,152
Speaker 3: and that wasn't explained. But at this point we think, okay,

846
00:51:07,192 --> 00:51:12,672
Speaker 3: look this has come up. It's a disputed account. We

847
00:51:12,712 --> 00:51:16,471
Speaker 3: don't know. But weeks later, we're back in John's River again,

848
00:51:16,592 --> 00:51:18,111
Speaker 3: just talking to people, and we go back to the

849
00:51:18,152 --> 00:51:20,472
Speaker 3: same house and we're going to talk to the older

850
00:51:20,471 --> 00:51:25,352
Speaker 3: man again, and he's insistent. He says that conversation definitely happened.

851
00:51:25,951 --> 00:51:27,992
Speaker 3: And we say, but your son said he didn't remember,

852
00:51:28,431 --> 00:51:30,832
Speaker 3: and the old guy says, ah, I know, I was told,

853
00:51:31,031 --> 00:51:35,392
Speaker 3: you know, tight lipped, And it was almost as if

854
00:51:35,431 --> 00:51:37,392
Speaker 3: he's being told that he was told not to talk

855
00:51:37,431 --> 00:51:42,632
Speaker 3: about it. And then the younger man arrives in a fury.

856
00:51:43,232 --> 00:51:45,511
Speaker 3: He drives up onto the lawn and he gets out.

857
00:51:45,592 --> 00:51:49,192
Speaker 3: He's completely shirtless and he just I'm not talking about

858
00:51:49,192 --> 00:51:51,111
Speaker 3: Frank Abbott. I don't want to talk about him again.

859
00:51:51,152 --> 00:51:54,031
Speaker 3: And he basically throws his off the property. So we

860
00:51:54,031 --> 00:51:58,712
Speaker 3: weren't able to get a full explanation of what happened,

861
00:51:58,752 --> 00:52:05,232
Speaker 3: except that there's this allegation that William is disposed of

862
00:52:05,312 --> 00:52:08,751
Speaker 3: near the bird Tree. We know the police haven't searched there.

863
00:52:08,872 --> 00:52:11,031
Speaker 3: From talking to other members of the Abbot family, we

864
00:52:11,112 --> 00:52:13,752
Speaker 3: know that they used to go there as children. People

865
00:52:13,872 --> 00:52:18,511
Speaker 3: know that area up there, and it's the tree itself

866
00:52:18,592 --> 00:52:22,792
Speaker 3: is on a mountain called Middle Brother, and there's evidence

867
00:52:22,832 --> 00:52:26,072
Speaker 3: before the inquest that says Frank Abbot's mobile phone pings

868
00:52:26,112 --> 00:52:30,111
Speaker 3: off the Middle Brother cell tower the next morning. Now

869
00:52:30,112 --> 00:52:33,471
Speaker 3: that cell tower covers a huge area of land which

870
00:52:33,471 --> 00:52:36,951
Speaker 3: includes Kendall, so it doesn't necessarily prove anything at all,

871
00:52:38,352 --> 00:52:42,072
Speaker 3: but you got all the but you've got these unanswered questions.

872
00:52:42,072 --> 00:52:44,471
Speaker 3: And the one thing I do know is the police

873
00:52:44,592 --> 00:52:48,231
Speaker 3: haven't looked at this. It never came up at the inquest,

874
00:52:48,672 --> 00:52:50,712
Speaker 3: and I've got a stress. Frank has denied that he

875
00:52:50,752 --> 00:52:54,152
Speaker 3: had anything to do with William's disappearance, but this hasn't

876
00:52:54,192 --> 00:52:55,232
Speaker 3: been investigated.

877
00:52:55,832 --> 00:52:58,512
Speaker 2: Something else that we haven't really heard a lot about

878
00:52:58,511 --> 00:52:58,872
Speaker 2: too is.

879
00:52:58,951 --> 00:53:01,752
Speaker 1: We know that Frank is in jail now for crimes

880
00:53:01,752 --> 00:53:05,152
Speaker 1: that he committed against children, but he was implicated at

881
00:53:05,232 --> 00:53:10,312
Speaker 1: least in other crimes before William's disappearance, and in fact

882
00:53:10,551 --> 00:53:12,392
Speaker 1: has been tried for murder in the past.

883
00:53:13,911 --> 00:53:16,712
Speaker 3: He was tried and found not guilty for the murder

884
00:53:16,752 --> 00:53:20,631
Speaker 3: of a seventeen year old girl who was found half

885
00:53:20,712 --> 00:53:25,151
Speaker 3: naked buried in a shallow grave in northwest Sydney back

886
00:53:25,192 --> 00:53:28,752
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty eight, and at the time that he

887
00:53:28,832 --> 00:53:31,152
Speaker 3: was put on trial, there were witnesses who said Frank

888
00:53:31,192 --> 00:53:34,432
Speaker 3: had confessed to it, but it was argued in court

889
00:53:35,471 --> 00:53:38,191
Speaker 3: and the jury found that he was not guilty. Now,

890
00:53:38,192 --> 00:53:40,192
Speaker 3: as part of the work we've been doing, we've spoken

891
00:53:40,232 --> 00:53:44,312
Speaker 3: to two more witnesses who said that Frank has told them,

892
00:53:44,752 --> 00:53:49,431
Speaker 3: or that Frank's relatives has said that maybe he was

893
00:53:49,511 --> 00:53:52,872
Speaker 3: involved and maybe not in her murder, but he had

894
00:53:52,872 --> 00:53:55,591
Speaker 3: sex with her. That he picked this girl up she

895
00:53:55,712 --> 00:53:57,911
Speaker 3: was cycling home from work, put her bike in the

896
00:53:57,911 --> 00:54:01,832
Speaker 3: back of his ute, and had sex with her. And

897
00:54:01,872 --> 00:54:04,031
Speaker 3: there was actually a witness who gave this kind of

898
00:54:04,712 --> 00:54:09,431
Speaker 3: passing reference at the in to this to this girl's death,

899
00:54:09,511 --> 00:54:12,631
Speaker 3: that Frank had said that someone had taken his car

900
00:54:12,672 --> 00:54:17,711
Speaker 3: had sex with her. And again the police haven't investigated

901
00:54:17,792 --> 00:54:21,471
Speaker 3: this either. And even though that evidence came up in

902
00:54:21,551 --> 00:54:25,112
Speaker 3: the inquest about the death of this girl, Helen Harrison,

903
00:54:25,832 --> 00:54:29,832
Speaker 3: we've spoken to her family, they were never told. Five

904
00:54:29,951 --> 00:54:33,271
Speaker 3: years later, the police have not contacted them to say

905
00:54:33,832 --> 00:54:36,832
Speaker 3: new evidence about what may have happened to your sister

906
00:54:36,872 --> 00:54:40,712
Speaker 3: has come up at this inquest. They've not contacted them

907
00:54:40,752 --> 00:54:42,431
Speaker 3: to say we are looking at it. We've ruled it

908
00:54:42,511 --> 00:54:46,352
Speaker 3: out because maybe it means nothing. There hasn't been any

909
00:54:46,392 --> 00:54:48,792
Speaker 3: follow up by the police, and so we started looking

910
00:54:48,832 --> 00:54:52,111
Speaker 3: at this and then we found a witness statement that's

911
00:54:52,112 --> 00:54:54,591
Speaker 3: been tendered to the inquest, so it's in evidence at

912
00:54:54,592 --> 00:54:58,792
Speaker 3: the inquest. It's with a woman who knew Frank for years.

913
00:54:59,352 --> 00:55:01,951
Speaker 3: She employed him for a while in Taree on the

914
00:55:01,951 --> 00:55:06,471
Speaker 3: mid North Coast, and in that statement she links Frank

915
00:55:06,792 --> 00:55:09,911
Speaker 3: to another unsolved murder of a woman called Margaret Cox.

916
00:55:11,031 --> 00:55:13,792
Speaker 3: She doesn't say she knows Frank did it. There's no

917
00:55:14,072 --> 00:55:19,232
Speaker 3: evidence in there that proves anything, but she says I

918
00:55:19,272 --> 00:55:21,872
Speaker 3: saw Frank a few days later and he had gouge

919
00:55:21,911 --> 00:55:25,592
Speaker 3: marks in his arm. A couple of days after Margaret

920
00:55:25,632 --> 00:55:28,631
Speaker 3: goes missing and that Frank said they were oysters, and

921
00:55:28,672 --> 00:55:31,432
Speaker 3: she said, look, they're not oysters. That was something else,

922
00:55:32,031 --> 00:55:34,232
Speaker 3: And she says there was another man who saw this

923
00:55:34,312 --> 00:55:39,912
Speaker 3: woman at Frank's house very shortly before she went missing.

924
00:55:41,112 --> 00:55:44,392
Speaker 3: And she told us that when she gave this evidence

925
00:55:44,431 --> 00:55:46,872
Speaker 3: to the inquest, she asked that it be passed on

926
00:55:46,951 --> 00:55:49,431
Speaker 3: to the unsolved Homicide team in the police and was

927
00:55:49,471 --> 00:55:52,152
Speaker 3: promised it would be. It was five years ago. No

928
00:55:52,192 --> 00:55:55,072
Speaker 3: one's called her. She's never heard anything from the police.

929
00:55:55,911 --> 00:55:58,232
Speaker 3: And we spoke to the other witness she named that

930
00:55:58,431 --> 00:56:02,751
Speaker 3: said he saw Frank and Margaret together at Frank's house

931
00:56:02,792 --> 00:56:07,511
Speaker 3: shortly before she disappeared. He's never been called by the police.

932
00:56:07,672 --> 00:56:11,832
Speaker 3: And so I'm not saying that these links are proof

933
00:56:11,911 --> 00:56:15,312
Speaker 3: of anything at all, but I am saying these things

934
00:56:15,352 --> 00:56:19,352
Speaker 3: are known to the inquest, they're known to someone in

935
00:56:19,392 --> 00:56:22,312
Speaker 3: the police, but they haven't been followed up as we

936
00:56:22,352 --> 00:56:27,192
Speaker 3: can tell, because the family have heard nothing. Helen Harrison's

937
00:56:27,192 --> 00:56:30,431
Speaker 3: family have heard nothing at all. These witnesses have heard

938
00:56:30,471 --> 00:56:35,192
Speaker 3: nothing from the police. The same statement mentions another unsolved

939
00:56:35,352 --> 00:56:40,152
Speaker 3: murder and talks about how Frank. We were told Frank

940
00:56:40,272 --> 00:56:45,911
Speaker 3: knew the girl's parents and he drove this strange, isolated

941
00:56:45,951 --> 00:56:49,712
Speaker 3: back road where her body was discovered. Again, on the

942
00:56:49,752 --> 00:56:54,431
Speaker 3: surface of it, those allegations prove nothing, but those allegations

943
00:56:54,431 --> 00:56:58,952
Speaker 3: are contained in evidence at the inquest into William Tyrell's disappearance.

944
00:56:59,592 --> 00:57:02,832
Speaker 3: And when we spoke to that girl's brother, their name

945
00:57:02,951 --> 00:57:06,911
Speaker 3: Sherrie Masters. He said, I've heard nothing from the police

946
00:57:07,152 --> 00:57:12,312
Speaker 3: for years at all. So this evidence is there in

947
00:57:12,352 --> 00:57:16,672
Speaker 3: the authority's hands and they don't seem to be following

948
00:57:16,712 --> 00:57:21,032
Speaker 3: it up. And the families of these unsolved murder victims, who, yeah,

949
00:57:21,032 --> 00:57:24,072
Speaker 3: they accept that this might prove nothing, maybe it proves

950
00:57:24,112 --> 00:57:28,032
Speaker 3: absolutely nothing at all, but they want to know that

951
00:57:28,112 --> 00:57:30,231
Speaker 3: the police are looking at it, that the police care

952
00:57:30,432 --> 00:57:33,512
Speaker 3: about their loved one's deaths. And the worst thing of

953
00:57:33,552 --> 00:57:38,751
Speaker 3: it all, Sherley Master's brother, Tony is a lovely man

954
00:57:39,392 --> 00:57:41,792
Speaker 3: and he sat down with my colleague Nina, who's the

955
00:57:41,912 --> 00:57:46,112
Speaker 3: producer I've been working with, spoke at long length about

956
00:57:46,552 --> 00:57:50,632
Speaker 3: his sister who died when she was seventeen, whose body

957
00:57:50,792 --> 00:57:55,312
Speaker 3: was buried in a shallow grave and lost for years.

958
00:57:55,912 --> 00:58:00,672
Speaker 3: And Nina told him this evidence that's before the William

959
00:58:00,672 --> 00:58:03,952
Speaker 3: Tiole inquest, that nobody had told him the police had

960
00:58:03,992 --> 00:58:08,151
Speaker 3: never contacted him. And straight after that he called up

961
00:58:08,192 --> 00:58:12,992
Speaker 3: the police and he said, who's handling this case now?

962
00:58:13,192 --> 00:58:15,352
Speaker 3: And what are you doing? Can you give me an update.

963
00:58:16,312 --> 00:58:19,112
Speaker 3: We spoke to Tony a few days ago and he's

964
00:58:19,192 --> 00:58:24,392
Speaker 3: never had a callback. So that was March. It's now May,

965
00:58:24,832 --> 00:58:29,232
Speaker 3: two months in which the brother of an unsolved murder

966
00:58:29,312 --> 00:58:33,112
Speaker 3: victim has called the police and said, I've been told

967
00:58:33,152 --> 00:58:36,751
Speaker 3: there's new evidence about my sister's death. Can you tell

968
00:58:36,792 --> 00:58:39,392
Speaker 3: me who's in charge of the case, And they have

969
00:58:39,632 --> 00:58:40,912
Speaker 3: never called him back.

970
00:58:41,752 --> 00:58:44,392
Speaker 1: I think that's appalling in your opinion, And I don't

971
00:58:44,392 --> 00:58:46,712
Speaker 1: want to get you in trouble here at all with anyone,

972
00:58:46,712 --> 00:58:50,512
Speaker 1: But in your opinion, is this a lack of resources issue?

973
00:58:50,632 --> 00:58:53,792
Speaker 1: Or is this a police have got their focus on

974
00:58:53,872 --> 00:58:56,191
Speaker 1: who they've got their focus on, and they're not going

975
00:58:56,192 --> 00:58:58,392
Speaker 1: to be drawn into thinking of anyone else at this point.

976
00:58:58,552 --> 00:59:02,352
Speaker 3: I hope it's a lack of resources issue. One thing

977
00:59:02,392 --> 00:59:04,472
Speaker 3: we do know from the work we did earlier in

978
00:59:04,512 --> 00:59:07,792
Speaker 3: this series was the early episodes we took a deep

979
00:59:07,832 --> 00:59:11,472
Speaker 3: dive into the unsolved homicide team. Now, the guy leading

980
00:59:11,512 --> 00:59:14,751
Speaker 3: the William Toole investigation is in the Unsolved Homicide Team

981
00:59:14,792 --> 00:59:17,272
Speaker 3: and so are a number of the detectives in that

982
00:59:17,352 --> 00:59:22,752
Speaker 3: strike force. And we looked at the performance of that team,

983
00:59:23,392 --> 00:59:25,992
Speaker 3: and there was a public inquiry a couple of years

984
00:59:25,992 --> 00:59:33,631
Speaker 3: ago that actually uncovered genuinely shocking facts about how they've

985
00:59:33,672 --> 00:59:37,632
Speaker 3: lost evidence by the palette load, they have lost evidence,

986
00:59:38,232 --> 00:59:41,512
Speaker 3: how there is a backlog of dozens, if not hundreds

987
00:59:41,552 --> 00:59:45,712
Speaker 3: of cases, how it would take them decades to work

988
00:59:45,832 --> 00:59:49,191
Speaker 3: through the backlog of unsolved cases at their present rate.

989
00:59:50,232 --> 00:59:53,712
Speaker 3: It was revealed in that public inquiry that David Laidlaw,

990
00:59:53,752 --> 00:59:57,392
Speaker 3: who's the man leading the William Toole investigation and is

991
00:59:57,432 --> 01:00:03,472
Speaker 3: also a senior unsolved homicide detective, has nineteen cases on

992
01:00:03,552 --> 01:00:06,671
Speaker 3: his desk that he says he hasn't opened for year.

993
01:00:08,112 --> 01:00:11,312
Speaker 3: So I hope that's just a resources issue, that the

994
01:00:11,352 --> 01:00:17,592
Speaker 3: police don't have enough detectives, don't have enough resources, that

995
01:00:17,672 --> 01:00:19,672
Speaker 3: they aren't able to look at all these cases in

996
01:00:19,712 --> 01:00:22,232
Speaker 3: the time. But if you've got nineteen cases on your

997
01:00:22,272 --> 01:00:27,392
Speaker 3: desk that you haven't opened for a year, what on earth,

998
01:00:28,192 --> 01:00:33,992
Speaker 3: how on earth could that happen? And my fear is

999
01:00:34,032 --> 01:00:36,912
Speaker 3: that each of those cases is a family, a grieving

1000
01:00:36,952 --> 01:00:42,272
Speaker 3: family who have no answers, and I think that appaus

1001
01:00:42,352 --> 01:00:44,512
Speaker 3: me as well. It really does.

1002
01:00:44,912 --> 01:00:47,711
Speaker 1: Do you feel like we are any closer today than

1003
01:00:47,752 --> 01:00:51,432
Speaker 1: we were, say, five years ago, before the inquest began

1004
01:00:52,152 --> 01:00:55,552
Speaker 1: into getting a resolution in the case of William Yol's disappearance.

1005
01:00:57,352 --> 01:01:02,312
Speaker 3: You know what, I'm strangely hopeful. I am. I don't

1006
01:01:02,352 --> 01:01:07,711
Speaker 3: know where or how, but I am convinced that we

1007
01:01:07,792 --> 01:01:11,631
Speaker 3: will find out what happened, And it may be it

1008
01:01:11,672 --> 01:01:14,192
Speaker 3: will almost come in by chance someone in the police

1009
01:01:14,192 --> 01:01:16,392
Speaker 3: will look at the case and say, well what about that,

1010
01:01:17,392 --> 01:01:20,992
Speaker 3: or a new witness will come forward, or maybe the

1011
01:01:21,072 --> 01:01:26,432
Speaker 3: media attention will provoke someone to call up someone in

1012
01:01:26,512 --> 01:01:30,312
Speaker 3: authority and say what about this? Because that does happen

1013
01:01:30,552 --> 01:01:34,152
Speaker 3: in look at the Madeline macancase. For years and years

1014
01:01:34,192 --> 01:01:36,952
Speaker 3: they were police were looking at the family there, and

1015
01:01:37,032 --> 01:01:40,872
Speaker 3: now it very much looks like the German police have

1016
01:01:40,992 --> 01:01:45,312
Speaker 3: identified someone who they do believe may be responsible. But

1017
01:01:45,392 --> 01:01:48,352
Speaker 3: it took years and it came completely out of left field.

1018
01:01:48,912 --> 01:01:51,552
Speaker 3: So I do remain hopeful that will happen. But when

1019
01:01:51,592 --> 01:01:58,392
Speaker 3: it does, I'm also sadly convinced that that name or

1020
01:01:58,432 --> 01:02:01,392
Speaker 3: that key fact will be somewhere in the files that

1021
01:02:01,392 --> 01:02:04,472
Speaker 3: the police already have, because they have tens of thousands

1022
01:02:04,512 --> 01:02:08,352
Speaker 3: of pages of documents. They have literally thousands of hours

1023
01:02:08,592 --> 01:02:13,552
Speaker 3: of COVIT recordings of different persons of interest somewhere in that.

1024
01:02:14,512 --> 01:02:18,671
Speaker 3: I'm sure when they do find William and they work

1025
01:02:18,712 --> 01:02:22,792
Speaker 3: it back, they will say that's the moment when we

1026
01:02:22,832 --> 01:02:23,912
Speaker 3: could have done this sooner.

1027
01:02:26,912 --> 01:02:29,552
Speaker 1: Thank you to Dan for helping us to tell this story.

1028
01:02:29,672 --> 01:02:32,072
Speaker 1: You can listen to all four new episodes of The

1029
01:02:32,072 --> 01:02:34,231
Speaker 1: Witness William Tyrrell podcast now.

1030
01:02:34,272 --> 01:02:35,872
Speaker 2: There's a link to that in our show notes.

1031
01:02:36,192 --> 01:02:38,792
Speaker 1: To see archival images and footage of the cases we

1032
01:02:38,872 --> 01:02:41,912
Speaker 1: cover on this podcast. Follow us on TikTok at True

1033
01:02:41,912 --> 01:02:42,952
Speaker 1: Crime Conversations.

1034
01:02:43,152 --> 01:02:44,072
Speaker 2: We've got a community of.

1035
01:02:44,072 --> 01:02:46,231
Speaker 1: True crime lovers on TikTok and we'd love to see

1036
01:02:46,232 --> 01:02:49,671
Speaker 1: you there. True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Clare

1037
01:02:49,752 --> 01:02:52,912
Speaker 1: Murphy and produced by Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by

1038
01:02:52,992 --> 01:02:56,151
Speaker 1: Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back

1039
01:02:56,192 --> 01:02:58,312
Speaker 1: next week with another True Crime Conversation.