Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud What women are actually talking about
Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the fourth of September.
Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm.
Speaker 1: Me Friedman, and we've already done a segment where we've
Speaker 1: had an argument just while we were setting up the microphones.
Speaker 3: That's very standard for this kind of day.
Speaker 4: And I'm Jesse Stevens and on.
Speaker 2: The show today, why El McPherson is being branded as
Speaker 2: dangerously irresponsible?
Speaker 3: Also, people asking you.
Speaker 2: What you want for your next big birthday, We've got
Speaker 2: an idea that's either genius or absolute torture. And finally,
Speaker 2: pop music is all about women inside the genius selling
Speaker 2: of Sabrina, Charlie and Chapel.
Speaker 3: But first Jesse.
Speaker 4: This week, much of Israel's economy was shut down due
Speaker 4: to a general strike where civilians put pressure on Prime
Speaker 4: Minister Benjamin Netnyaho to agree to a seize fire deal
Speaker 4: in Gaza. This is seen as the biggest push by
Speaker 4: Israelis yet to force netna whose government to end this war.
Speaker 4: These strikes come after the bodies of six Israeli hostages
Speaker 4: were found in a tunnel in the Gaza Strip. They
Speaker 4: had been shot at close range. Ninety seven hostages remain
Speaker 4: and Netnya, who is widely believed to be prolonging the
Speaker 4: war rather than prioritizing their safe return.
Speaker 1: This was so devastating because he the families of the
Speaker 1: remaining hostages and the hostages who were killed came out
Speaker 1: and people are very angry in Israel with Netna Who.
Speaker 1: They want the war over. The whole world wants the
Speaker 1: war over. They want the hostages returned, they want their
Speaker 1: family back. I don't think there's anyone who wants to
Speaker 1: prolong this war really, except for Netna Who and his supporters. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: this what started as a protest, they tried to turn
Speaker 1: into a strike. He's still got the support of the
Speaker 1: right and he just needs to go. It's almost a
Speaker 1: year since this war started after the massacre on October seven,
Speaker 1: and too many people have died.
Speaker 4: So far, thirty three hostages have been declared dead by
Speaker 4: Israeli authorities, with one hundred and seventy five killed on
Speaker 4: October seven. That's based on social security data, and since
Speaker 4: October seven, that is, as you say, eleven months ago.
Speaker 4: Now more than forty thousand Palestinians have been killed, according
Speaker 4: to local health authorities. Most of those are women and children.
Speaker 4: The majority of Gaza's two point three million residents have
Speaker 4: been forced to flee due to Israel's military assault and
Speaker 4: due to those living conditions. There's news out just in
Speaker 4: the last few days. We knew that disease was spreading,
Speaker 4: but this now includes the first case of polio in
Speaker 4: Gaza in twenty five years.
Speaker 1: So now the world just paused to vaccinate two hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy thousand children in Gaza against polio. It's a
Speaker 1: humanitarian disaster. There are so many people suffering on both sides.
Speaker 1: It just has to end and for more.
Speaker 4: We are covering this news story on our twice daily
Speaker 4: news podcast, The Quickie, as well as on Mamma Maya.
Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen, Elle macpherson was diagnosed with breast cancer.
Speaker 2: We know this because she writes two chapters about it
Speaker 2: in her new book, which is called Elle and It's
Speaker 2: part memoir, part self help. I've read it for reasons
Speaker 2: we won't go into today. That was kept very quiet
Speaker 2: at the time. Yes, it's very much seen as a revelation,
Speaker 2: is the tabloid language we're using. At the time, she
Speaker 2: was living in Miami, she was married to her second husband,
Speaker 2: Jeff Sofer, and her two boys were in their teens.
Speaker 2: Elle was already a big devotee at this point of
Speaker 2: what we broadly call wellness, and she'd already started a
Speaker 2: supplement business called Welco in twenty fourteen. Now, like many
Speaker 2: many women before her and since, and women listening to
Speaker 2: this show right now, she was initially completely flattened by
Speaker 2: the news that the investigations into a lump in her
Speaker 2: breast had found a cancerous tumor. The advice was that
Speaker 2: she should have a mystectomy with radiation, chemotherapy, and hormone therapy.
Speaker 2: She writes that her initial doctor told her this would
Speaker 2: be a two year process, and she writes that she
Speaker 2: was understandably flooded with panic, fear, and confusion. The reason
Speaker 2: that you're seeing headlines about what el macpherson did next
Speaker 2: everywhere this week is because it's not what most women
Speaker 2: do in this situation, as she details in the book,
Speaker 2: as we've said for the first time, Instead, she went
Speaker 2: into an intense research state she got opinions from more
Speaker 2: than thirty two different doctors on what they thought her
Speaker 2: treatment options were. Speaking to other people in her life too,
Speaker 2: her kids, their father, her husband, a friends, and ultimately,
Speaker 2: she writes, she decided to go a different route. I
Speaker 2: didn't believe she writes that drugs and modern pharmaceuticals were
Speaker 2: the only answer. I chose a holistic approach. It was
Speaker 2: the hardest decision I have ever made in my life.
Speaker 2: She went to a natural therapy's clinic in Arizona, where
Speaker 2: she underwent eight months of intense natural and putting that
Speaker 2: in kind of inverted commas therapies which are way too
Speaker 2: long to list here. She goes into a lot of
Speaker 2: detail about it in the book, but included everything from
Speaker 2: prayer to IV infusions and herbal therapies. Unsurprisingly, this chapter,
Speaker 2: these two chapters actually of McPherson's book, have drawn a
Speaker 2: lot of attention, and lots of people this week are
Speaker 2: branding it's shockingly irresponsible to suggest to people that they
Speaker 2: too should refuse traditional treatments, or that there is implicit
Speaker 2: in publishing this approach a level of judgment about the
Speaker 2: right and wrong ways to approach health and healing Mia.
Speaker 2: This feels like it's thrown a conversation back into the
Speaker 2: headlines that had kind of died down for a while
Speaker 2: there from that sort of peak Bell Gibson Pete Evans
Speaker 2: moment where all this sort of so called natural therapies
Speaker 2: were everywhere and being widely disproven. Often is it dangerous
Speaker 2: for a woman to seemingly just tell the truth about
Speaker 2: what she did in this situation.
Speaker 1: I'm really torn about this, and I wanted to start
Speaker 1: off by saying, we are sending our love to everybody
Speaker 1: who is feeling really upset by this story, either because
Speaker 1: they have cancer, someone they love has cancer, someone they
Speaker 1: love has been lost to cancer, because whether she meant
Speaker 1: to or not, the implication is that if people just
Speaker 1: did the right thing, I mean, everyone does what they
Speaker 1: think is the right thing. And I do believe I
Speaker 1: will always give the benefit of the doubt that el
Speaker 1: McPherson thought she's doing the right thing. And I think
Speaker 1: we also should be clear, and she's clear in the
Speaker 1: book she's not suggesting that other people do it, but
Speaker 1: it's implied. You know, she sells a book, she sells
Speaker 1: wellness products, and she also does not say that those
Speaker 1: wellness products cut her cancer, so.
Speaker 2: She doesn't, and in the interests of fairness, she makes
Speaker 2: a big point in the book of like this was
Speaker 2: right for me. I'm not saying it was right for you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but that's not how people feel, particularly when they're in
Speaker 2: the heat of this experience.
Speaker 1: I spoke to one of my closest friends who's a
Speaker 1: breast physician and breast surgeon today and I sort of
Speaker 1: sent her link to this article and I said, good
Speaker 1: news for all your patients. They should just light a
Speaker 1: candle and try some prayer and it wakes in Arizona.
Speaker 1: And she just replied, this just makes me weep. It
Speaker 1: makes me weep because there's never a more vulnerable time
Speaker 1: in your life than when you are diagnosed with cancer,
Speaker 1: or it's one of the most vulnerable times, and it
Speaker 1: can be really, really confusing. And I do support anyone's
Speaker 1: right to have bodily autonomy and decide what they do
Speaker 1: and don't want to do. And it's not like we
Speaker 1: can say she shouldn't be allowed to talk about it,
Speaker 1: or we shouldn't publish her book because she's talked about
Speaker 1: something that we feel is irresponsible, because everybody can do
Speaker 1: what they want.
Speaker 2: She's an adult if we don't think she should have
Speaker 2: included that story in her book. But we're saying we
Speaker 2: don't want to censor anyone. What was she supposed to
Speaker 2: do with that story, not necessarily el McPherson herself. But
Speaker 2: this is a big community, this wellness community, that has
Speaker 2: all kinds of different stories within it. Are we saying
Speaker 2: we don't want to hear it? It's irresponsible to even
Speaker 2: speak the words, what do you think?
Speaker 1: It's really hard, isn't it? Because that is part of
Speaker 1: her story, and it's obviously been a life changing event
Speaker 1: for her. And if she truly does believe, which benefit
Speaker 1: of the doubt, she does, that this course of treatment
Speaker 1: was helpful to her, she would want to share that
Speaker 1: information with other people.
Speaker 2: It would seem there are a million podcasts out there,
Speaker 2: there are a million sites and chat rooms and all
Speaker 2: those things where this kind of therapy has discussed a lot, right,
Speaker 2: And one of the things that's interesting about the way
Speaker 2: we react when it comes into the light is do
Speaker 2: we just push it further underground, which might be good
Speaker 2: in some ways but bad in others, because if you
Speaker 2: shine light on it, bring it into the mainstream, it
Speaker 2: can be more of an open discussion, whereas if you
Speaker 2: every time anyone says anything about it, you tell them
Speaker 2: to shut up. They're just going off into corners of
Speaker 2: the internet where they're like self.
Speaker 4: Almost radicalizing it. Yeah yeah, yeah, But we talk on
Speaker 4: podcasts and write books and all of those things, and
Speaker 4: you tell stories about your own life. And often I
Speaker 4: go to tell a story. This has happened multiple times,
Speaker 4: and I have stopped myself and gone, it's actually, isn't helpful.
Speaker 4: It's gonna make someone feel like shit, Yeah, this is
Speaker 4: gonna and it's true, and it speaks to a truth
Speaker 4: that might make someone feel seen or whatever. But this
Speaker 4: isn't a private journal. This was a memoir, a book
Speaker 4: that was going to be published and read by a
Speaker 4: lot of people. And you know, she's talked about the
Speaker 4: cancer thing in the Australian Women's Weekly exclusive that was
Speaker 4: part of the promotion of it. I think you make
Speaker 4: a choice there, because a memoir isn't for l A
Speaker 4: memoir is for your audience.
Speaker 1: But let's be clear, it's all about wellness and all
Speaker 1: these supplements. While she looks not sixty but incredibly hot
Speaker 1: and incredibly not like anyone else, I mean, she's on
Speaker 1: with first, but then she's also elmcpherson with a lot
Speaker 1: of work and a lot of self care with it,
Speaker 1: As she said, because the inference when you've got someone
Speaker 1: saying buy these products, and you market them with shots
Speaker 1: of yourself in a bikini and looking a certain way,
Speaker 1: the inference is that if you take these products, you
Speaker 1: can look like me.
Speaker 4: When I was reading these excerpts, I wondered if the
Speaker 4: inference was if you take my products, or if you
Speaker 4: live a life, a healthy life that is somewhat like me,
Speaker 4: and you have a holistic approach to health, then perhaps
Speaker 4: you too can cure your own cancer. She does not
Speaker 4: say those words, but I am saying that that's I
Speaker 4: think a feeling that people are getting. I reckon. It's
Speaker 4: important to go back to some of the facts, right
Speaker 4: because I saw a few medical doctors saying that the
Speaker 4: bit that's being left out of a lot of this
Speaker 4: reporting is that she discovered it was cancer following a
Speaker 4: lump ectomy, which was removing the growth in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 4: and a few doctors have said, yeah, you had a
Speaker 4: lump removed. That lump may have been so lucky that
Speaker 4: that lump had most of the cancer as cells in
Speaker 4: it a mastectomy. The reason that that might be suggested
Speaker 4: or given an option by a medical professional is that
Speaker 4: it reduces your chances of getting breast cancer in the future,
Speaker 4: because we know that it can come back. There are,
Speaker 4: of course, a few lifestyle factors that would really work
Speaker 4: in el McPherson's favor. Right, she's healthy, she exercises, she
Speaker 4: eats well, blah blah blah, and those things a doctor
Speaker 4: would say are great starters when it comes to health.
Speaker 1: And the cans are rich, he is surely yeah, and
Speaker 1: the access.
Speaker 4: That she has to these the data suggests that there
Speaker 4: are certain things about lifestyle choices that would contribute to
Speaker 4: your risk of having cancer. However, I know people in
Speaker 4: my life who were incredibly healthy, incredibly active, ate, really well,
Speaker 4: all of those things, and they died of cancer. And
Speaker 4: that's not because of choices that they made. That was
Speaker 4: because I heard an expert say, everyone gets a different
Speaker 4: kind of cancer. You might get a Mini Cooper and
Speaker 4: you might get a truck. And maybe she had a
Speaker 4: particular type and her story is not over, As every
Speaker 4: cancer survivor will say, they don't feel like their story
Speaker 4: is over. I just wish that she didn't print this
Speaker 4: in a book that does overlap, and in the press
Speaker 4: she does, and in the marketing she does, she does
Speaker 4: talk about this supplement company. The people that she works
Speaker 4: with have really questionable relationships with health. Obviously, she dated
Speaker 4: Andrew Wakefield for a period, who was the doctor who
Speaker 4: published a fraudulent paper about the relationship between vaccines and autism.
Speaker 4: Many people who she works with and who helped formulate
Speaker 4: the supplements claim to have cured their own cancer with
Speaker 4: like a detox or a particular health regime, And I'm
Speaker 4: going to trust the studies that that's not what works
Speaker 4: for most people.
Speaker 2: The thing that's really hard whenever this topic is brought
Speaker 2: up is that for most people that I know who
Speaker 2: find themselves in this situation, they actually do a lot
Speaker 2: of things. They will follow their doctor's advice. And the
Speaker 2: point about privilege is absolutely spot on. If I was
Speaker 2: diagnosed tomorrow, I would not have the access to thirty
Speaker 2: two different medical professionals. You go and see somebody, you
Speaker 2: do what they tell you. You trust in the doctor, but
Speaker 2: they also most people I know do try out some
Speaker 2: alternative therapies, will do different things to their diets, will
Speaker 2: try different supplements. We'll do it like people are open
Speaker 2: to this.
Speaker 1: It's not lights are open to that too, of course
Speaker 1: they are.
Speaker 2: It's not like there's a because we've talked about this
Speaker 2: on the show before that sometimes I get uncomfortable when
Speaker 2: we're very dismissive of wellness because for a lot of women,
Speaker 2: in a lot of different health circumstances, they have not
Speaker 2: found that's so called traditional and inverted commerce. Medicine has
Speaker 2: necessarily understood their problems, has necessarily solved their problems, has
Speaker 2: taken them seriously. Cancer is in a different bucket, and
Speaker 2: as Jesse has already expressed brilliantly with that analogy, cancer
Speaker 2: is so different for.
Speaker 4: Everybody who gets it.
Speaker 2: It's not the same as some of those things that
Speaker 2: women are rightly questioning the advice they're given and pursuing things.
Speaker 2: So I'll always celebrate our permission, right yeah, to explore
Speaker 2: different things that work for us and make changes to
Speaker 2: our life. And sometimes they're going to seem a bit
Speaker 2: weird to other people and they're not going to understand them.
Speaker 2: The problem with this, and this is what someone I
Speaker 2: know who's going through this said, is that by putting
Speaker 2: this out there in this aspirational way, because as you're
Speaker 2: saying me or I think your point is, is the
Speaker 2: brand here is very aspirational. Is that she and this
Speaker 2: is what my friend said to me, that it feels
Speaker 2: like she's judging all the fools who just follow the
Speaker 2: doctor's advice. And the thing is is, even though I'm
Speaker 2: sure that's not what she's doing, this is one of
Speaker 2: those moments. It's not like early motherhood, but it is
Speaker 2: in a way in that you are in such a vulnerable, confused,
Speaker 2: difficult position where the stakes are enormously high, and all
Speaker 2: this different information is coming at you, and you've made
Speaker 2: your choice based on what trained profess are telling you
Speaker 2: to do, and then you're being sort of encouraged to
Speaker 2: think that maybe you took the easy.
Speaker 3: Way or something.
Speaker 1: The arrogance of it is always breathtaking to me. This
Speaker 1: idea of thirty two doctors told her to do something
Speaker 1: and she decided to do something else.
Speaker 3: I would never do that. I am such a rule.
Speaker 2: But also I'm so if the doctor tells me to
Speaker 2: do something, I'm like, yep, okay, Like I am so.
Speaker 4: In saying that, I know people who, for very valid
Speaker 4: and understandable reasons, said no to chemo. Chemo is not
Speaker 4: the easy way out. Chemo in itself is a risk,
Speaker 4: surgery is a risk, a mastectomy is a risk, all
Speaker 4: of those things, and every woman has every right to
Speaker 4: choose not to do those things. I find it interesting
Speaker 4: how the term holistic has been weaponized as well, because,
Speaker 4: as you say, Holly, if you do get a mastectomy
Speaker 4: or chemotherapy and maybe you take a supplement and you
Speaker 4: do yoga and you meditate and you do acupuncture, that's
Speaker 4: pretty holistic to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, and it is what a lot of women do.
Speaker 4: Yes, And I was reading that even if you're taking
Speaker 4: a supplement or whatever, as long as you're transparent with
Speaker 4: your doctor, because sometimes it can intersect with other medicine things.
Speaker 4: So a big problem is people feeling a bit ashamed
Speaker 4: that they can't say to their doctor, I'm trying something
Speaker 4: that's a little bit left of center. I mean, people
Speaker 4: have been dealing with their health in lots of different
Speaker 4: ways for a lot of different years, and cancer is
Speaker 4: what it does to people's mental health is horrific. But
Speaker 4: there is just something in the tone and in the
Speaker 4: way that this has been presented. And I've heard her
Speaker 4: said in the same kind of breath, you know. I
Speaker 4: just want women to make a choice for themselves and
Speaker 4: all of that rhetoric. That's like, it's a hard enough
Speaker 4: decision already without feeling like someone's telling you made them.
Speaker 1: I just think a supermodel's view is irrelevant. It's not
Speaker 1: like I'm saying we should burn her book or ban
Speaker 1: her from being interviewed or censor what she says. I
Speaker 1: just find it incredibly unethical, not the speaking, but also
Speaker 1: the selling the products.
Speaker 4: Steve Jobs very famously declined traditional treatment for pancreatic cancer,
Speaker 4: and he did the dietary supplements and acupuncture and stuff,
Speaker 4: and his biographer said he deeply, deeply regretted it towards
Speaker 4: the end of his life. So that's another part of
Speaker 4: the story.
Speaker 1: There was a young woman who I knew from my
Speaker 1: time in magazine. She was diagnosed with cancer, very curable
Speaker 1: cancer early, and she was advised on a certain course
Speaker 1: of medical treatment, which she decided not to pursue. And
Speaker 1: then her mum was diagnosed with cancer. Her mom did
Speaker 1: the same thing and they both died, and she also said,
Speaker 1: towards the end, I really regret it, and my lives
Speaker 1: could have very likely been saved.
Speaker 2: I struggle with all of these conversations because it feels
Speaker 2: like that's also blame, you.
Speaker 3: Know what I mean. It feels like that's also blame.
Speaker 2: It's saying that was an irresponsible choice, you shouldn't have
Speaker 2: done that.
Speaker 1: And I do think think it's more they blamed themselves,
Speaker 1: like I can't imagine what that must have been, like
Speaker 1: I would never try, But it was more that they
Speaker 1: blamed themselves at the end.
Speaker 2: We like al McPherson, are not medical doctor here, so
Speaker 2: in talking about these topics, we always want to make
Speaker 2: clear that obviously we don't have expertise and that you
Speaker 2: should one hundred percent consult trained medical professionals about anything
Speaker 2: to do with your health in this way. And as
Speaker 2: Mia said at the beginning, just massive love to those
Speaker 2: who feel I'm going to use the word triggered by
Speaker 2: all the headlines around al McPherson's cancer journey in Inverted
Speaker 2: Commas this week, other the hell.
Speaker 1: Out narcissistic or a bloody good idea. I have a
Speaker 1: question about the best way to celebrate a milestone birthday
Speaker 1: when you turn twenty one or twenty five, or thirty
Speaker 1: or forty or fifty or sixty. You might remember Megan Markle.
Speaker 1: When she turned forty, she asked forty friends, activists, athletes, artists,
Speaker 1: and world leaders.
Speaker 4: Sorry her words, she sounds like your friend, kick off
Speaker 4: a global effort by contributing forty minutes of mentorship to
Speaker 4: support women re entering the work. Okay, this is hiring
Speaker 4: you sound sassy?
Speaker 1: You found judgement? Do you remember that? It was in lockdown?
Speaker 1: She was wearing Minolo's What did you do for your
Speaker 1: fortieth She said that I invited forty girlfriends. We had
Speaker 1: all to save the world. So that was very lofty
Speaker 1: what she asked everyone to do, which sounds like work,
Speaker 1: but was also quite confusing because it was called forty
Speaker 1: forty and it sounded a little bit like she was
Speaker 1: asking forty people to mentor forty women, but she wanted
Speaker 1: them to all give that mentorship. I actually was curious
Speaker 1: about how that went, so I went and followed a
Speaker 1: link back to the website I digressed genuous.
Speaker 4: I was interested to see the woman who does absolutely
Speaker 4: no research.
Speaker 1: And se for an Oh, it's a four oh four
Speaker 1: page not found on the arch webs.
Speaker 4: Not forty anymore. She did her thing, She moved on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway. But another Meghan, Megan Vera. She's a San
Speaker 1: Francisco writer. She turned seventy in December last year, on
Speaker 1: Boxing Day, in fact, and she decided that she didn't
Speaker 1: want to throw a big party or go on holidays
Speaker 1: with her extended family. She didn't want fuss or the
Speaker 1: mental load of organizing a party and having a guest
Speaker 1: list and all of that. Also, because she is Jesse,
Speaker 1: you'll relate to this. She's born on Boxing Day, Holly,
Speaker 1: you two and December everyone's busy away, very hard to
Speaker 1: round people up.
Speaker 3: I'll celebrate your youth day.
Speaker 1: No, So she decided she wanted to share experiences with
Speaker 1: people who meant something to her. She said, I asked myself,
Speaker 1: what can I do to fill my memory bank? Swim
Speaker 1: seventy laps, make seventy charity donations, string a necklace with
Speaker 1: seventy heirloom beads. More than anything, I wanted to spend
Speaker 1: cherished time with loved ones. So she made a list
Speaker 1: of seventy people and she wrote them all email and
Speaker 1: it said, dear person, I love having just rolled past
Speaker 1: sixty nine. I'm thinking about the large number looming on
Speaker 1: the horizon. To honor that large number. I want to
Speaker 1: log in seventy experiences in twenty twenty three with people
Speaker 1: I love. My goal is to say yes to whatever
Speaker 1: you might propose, no matter how big or small. Anything
Speaker 1: from a cup of coffee to a trip to a
Speaker 1: national park, from a walk in the woods to a
Speaker 1: Broadway show, from a manicure to a dance party. But please,
Speaker 1: no thrill seeking, no rollercoasters or bungee jumping, and nothing
Speaker 1: that involves a shark tank. I look forward to saying
Speaker 1: yes to your proposal, to a calendar full of one
Speaker 1: of her kind events, and to fully enjoying memorable moments
Speaker 1: with you with love. Megan.
Speaker 2: Wow, Megan, that's amazing.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was around six experiences a month exhaust and she hiked, kayaked, picnicked,
Speaker 1: rode the ferry and train, drank steaming cups of coffee
Speaker 1: and chai, dined out, listen to live music, visited museums.
Speaker 1: She did all kinds of things. Jesse, what are we
Speaker 1: doing for your fortieth Do you want to spend more
Speaker 1: time with me having a special experience?
Speaker 4: No, no, no, I was thinking about this because I
Speaker 4: was very inspired. But my next birthday is thirty four,
Speaker 4: which is one of the most nothing birthdays one can have.
Speaker 4: It is edging very so slightly to one's mid thirties,
Speaker 4: which again not exciting. But I was thinking about how
Speaker 4: I often cry on my birthday or just feel quite
Speaker 4: let down by the experience. I never have a birthday party,
Speaker 4: but if I organize something because you're a twin, yeah,
Speaker 4: but it's also because of the time of year. The
Speaker 4: thing about a birthday party is that you invite all
Speaker 4: these people you want to talk to, you don't get
Speaker 4: an opportunity to speak to any of them. Really, You've
Speaker 4: just put on something for others to enjoy, and then
Speaker 4: you walk away being like, oh now it's over, and
Speaker 4: I didn't even enjoy it. That's what I love about this,
Speaker 4: and in fact, what you want individual experiences with the
Speaker 4: people you love. I wondered if for my fortieth I
Speaker 4: might adjust it slightly and have a gift registry of experiences.
Speaker 4: So my worry is you guys, choosing the experiences you
Speaker 4: want to do with me. There's an issue that the
Speaker 4: word experiences has been conflated with jumping out of a plane,
Speaker 4: and I don't want to jump out. I take you
Speaker 4: to her boundaries exactly. She's given her boundaries. But I
Speaker 4: have things I want to do. I want to go for,
Speaker 4: you know, a certain walk I want to see.
Speaker 1: You make the list.
Speaker 4: I make the list. I'll do a little spreadsheet with
Speaker 4: my hero forty things I want to do. And then
Speaker 4: what I do? You go put your little name next
Speaker 4: to the little experience.
Speaker 1: And pay for it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the pay for it's interesting. A lot of
Speaker 4: it I think would be free. This is the thing, right,
Speaker 4: I don't want shit in my house from you. I
Speaker 4: don't need more shit. I don't need more gifts.
Speaker 3: I do like a car. We don't understand about that.
Speaker 1: But what if, like there's something that you want to do,
Speaker 1: but then someone you don't want to do it with
Speaker 1: puts their name next, but.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't send it to anyone you don't want to
Speaker 2: do it with. This's is the tricky thing about this
Speaker 2: is that Megan is a very privileged woman because she's seventy,
Speaker 2: with seventy people in her life that she wants to
Speaker 2: spend time with.
Speaker 4: That's a lot of people, I would say, too many.
Speaker 2: And forty people, Like I mean, this sounds terrible, but
Speaker 2: like I think if I made a list of all
Speaker 2: the people I would love to spend time with.
Speaker 1: How sweetie, would it be? Really? Sure?
Speaker 3: Well, it wouldn't it be. I don't think it'd be fifty,
Speaker 3: would it? I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I reckon that. After about twenty you're starting to clutch.
Speaker 4: And then when they put their name next to let's
Speaker 4: go for a swim at Bondi Beach, You're like, oh,
Speaker 4: I actually don't, but I love.
Speaker 2: What I love is the idea of this, and then
Speaker 2: as you've done there like editing it to make it
Speaker 2: something you like, because the spirit of it is beautiful,
Speaker 2: like the idea of once a week if you can.
Speaker 2: And obviously the glory about being seventy is she's probably
Speaker 2: got like generalizing, generalizing time to do this stuff. She's
Speaker 2: probably not rushing to work every day looking after kids,
Speaker 2: whatever it is.
Speaker 3: So she's got time.
Speaker 2: And the idea of having a thing in your week
Speaker 2: every week that was an experience you'd always wanted to do,
Speaker 2: a place she wanted to go to hang out with
Speaker 2: someone you really want to hang out with is beautiful
Speaker 2: and without question, is better than all the shitty candles.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it is, though, because I had
Speaker 1: this actually happened to me last weirdly. Yeah, my friend Paula,
Speaker 1: who's one of my closest friends. She's like, your birthday's
Speaker 1: coming up. It's in October. She says, what if we
Speaker 1: do something different. I can come and pick you up
Speaker 1: early and we can drive up to Palm Beach and
Speaker 1: we can do the Lighthouse Walk and then we can
Speaker 1: have like breakfast at baron Joey House.
Speaker 2: Or I don't know, so goodness met you your best friend?
Speaker 2: You don't like walking outside.
Speaker 3: All of it.
Speaker 1: I just said to her, that's my worst night man.
Speaker 3: See, I would like to do that.
Speaker 1: I know she would like to do that.
Speaker 3: Can I do it with Paula? Yes?
Speaker 1: Because she would like to do that. And I thought,
Speaker 1: oh god, I'm a bad friend because that's essentially what
Speaker 1: she would like for her birthday. And I've never done anything.
Speaker 1: And I was like, could we just go to the
Speaker 1: same place we always go at six o'clock on like
Speaker 1: a Wednesday.
Speaker 2: This brings us back and I think we discussed this
Speaker 2: the other day. Is a gift about you or about
Speaker 2: the person you're giving it too? Right?
Speaker 3: Because you're right?
Speaker 2: No, shaped Paula, who's amazing, but she would know that
Speaker 2: isn't what you want to do.
Speaker 1: She also did she's offered that, and then she then
Speaker 1: followed it up with another the text saying, or is
Speaker 1: that your worst nightmare? And I'm like, it's my worst nightmare.
Speaker 2: But she said, I thought that you've reminded me that
Speaker 2: a friend of mine tried to do this recently. One
Speaker 2: of my friends in my sort of core girl friend group.
Speaker 2: We were having drinks around at Penny's place and she said,
Speaker 2: I've got a birthday coming. I don't want to go
Speaker 2: out for dinner. I don't want to just have wines.
Speaker 2: I want us to do something different and we were
Speaker 2: like stumped, and then she was like, so you lot
Speaker 2: figure out what it is and we'll do it. And
Speaker 2: my Nicole friend Penny, Nicole is the person in the
Speaker 2: group who organizes things, did her best. You know they
Speaker 2: like when you paint and drink, you know, paint and sick.
Speaker 2: And she put one of those poles in our group chat.
Speaker 2: No one could find a day, nothing ever happened. My
Speaker 2: friend's birthday came went, we did absolutely so she said
Speaker 2: the bar too high.
Speaker 1: You should have just made a booking at your regular play.
Speaker 4: Done a nude paint sip. This is what my friends
Speaker 4: have been doing lately, and they say it's fabulous. Did
Speaker 4: you do what I haven't done it? I think I was.
Speaker 4: I'd just give berthelet all my friends went and they said.
Speaker 3: You're not just their nude? Is that correct?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Their news isn't everybody nude?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: Not everyone's name?
Speaker 1: Oh I thought everyone's new drawing. Sorry, I've got you've
Speaker 1: got to be nude and you're painting and you're sipping.
Speaker 1: I thought that was my worst nightmare. Jesus, But I think, Okay,
Speaker 1: So who's nude?
Speaker 4: So you go and do a nude painting of someone
Speaker 4: who's like posing up the.
Speaker 3: Front life drawing, which is fine.
Speaker 1: You can keep your clothes on.
Speaker 4: You can keep your clothes on. I guess you could
Speaker 4: take them off if you want.
Speaker 2: I love this because they are friends you like to
Speaker 2: walk with. They are friends you like to eat with.
Speaker 2: They are friends you like to you know, like, I've
Speaker 2: got a friend in the city who likes She and
Speaker 2: I have very similar taste in restaurants, Like we always
Speaker 2: want to go and try somewhere cool. So that's what
Speaker 2: we do together. You know, other friends. I like going
Speaker 2: for a walk on the beach in the morning with
Speaker 2: et cetera. So that's I like the idea of like curating.
Speaker 2: But also the other thing about this is that it
Speaker 2: does feel like a lot, a lot, a lot, doesn't it?
Speaker 3: Finding time for it all?
Speaker 1: We got out of our comfort zone and went on
Speaker 1: a date night this week.
Speaker 2: We did we didn't have pastor, we didn't have a
Speaker 2: glass of wine.
Speaker 1: We've never done that before.
Speaker 4: No, we've never been to the movies together.
Speaker 1: And that was my idea.
Speaker 2: Look at us changing and growing. Oh my goodness, look
Speaker 2: at you changing and growing.
Speaker 1: Out Louders Milestone birthdays. Do you think this is a
Speaker 1: good idea or is it your worst night mare? And
Speaker 1: if it is, have you got better ideas for milestone birthdays?
Speaker 4: Out Louders. If you have ever thought about becoming a
Speaker 4: mum mea subscriber, then now is the time to do so.
Speaker 4: We are giving away so many prizes as part of
Speaker 4: our Lazy Girl giveaways. You might have heard recently about
Speaker 4: a trip to Turkey that we gave away thousand dollars
Speaker 4: Uber eats voucher i robots. Right now, all subscribers are
Speaker 4: in the running to win one of five GHD styling tools.
Speaker 4: If you want to go into the running for these
Speaker 4: prizes and all future prizes, and all you have to
Speaker 4: do is become a subscriber. You can use the code
Speaker 4: lazy Hair for twenty percent off a yearly subscription. Link
Speaker 4: is in the show notes. And if you want to
Speaker 4: hear what it feels like to win a trip to Turkey,
Speaker 4: listen to one of our favorite.
Speaker 6: Subscribers, Jesse and Claire and all the team at Mama Mia.
Speaker 6: I've just been listening to yesterday's episode and there's the
Speaker 6: ad about becoming subscriber and that you can win stuff,
Speaker 6: and there's some check won the Turkey holiday, and it
Speaker 6: was me, Oh my god, I could not believe it
Speaker 6: when I got that email. Just ecstatic my family.
Speaker 1: It's like, what is going on? Who's died?
Speaker 6: I don't know while we respond like that if someone died,
Speaker 6: but anyway, it was just brilliant. We've booked the trip,
Speaker 6: we're just waiting to book the flas and so stoked.
Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4: The names absolutely dominating the music charts at the moment
Speaker 4: include Sabrina Carpenter, Billie Eilish, Charlie, XCX, Chapel R. I
Speaker 4: could go on Carpenter in particular, has just released Short
Speaker 4: and Sweet. It's her new album which has established her
Speaker 4: as a major pop icon. Interestingly, the whole album only
Speaker 4: runs for about thirty six minutes, which we'll get to.
Speaker 4: But there's a few things happening at once in music
Speaker 4: that I wanted to unpack with you both. The first
Speaker 4: is that the solo female artist is having a moment
Speaker 4: like never before. We have a Doja Cat, we have
Speaker 4: a zar Sa No Sissa, we have a Scissa. I
Speaker 4: was just thinking, look, I'm reading phonetically.
Speaker 1: Some of you, the youngest one on this podcast.
Speaker 4: We have a Megan Thee Stallion. We have a Taylor Swift,
Speaker 4: Olivia Rodrigo, Beyonce I Spice. I don't know what I
Speaker 4: Spice is, but she's one of them. There are dozens
Speaker 4: and dozens. The second thing you might have noticed is
Speaker 4: a disappearance of bands. They virtually don't exist in the
Speaker 4: charts anymore. And the third thing is the TikTok off
Speaker 4: of music. It's changed how we listen to music, the
Speaker 4: distribution model, the way a song is structured, and certainly
Speaker 4: the length. Holly is pop music totally different to what
Speaker 4: it was even a decade ago.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it is a bloody love the fact that
Speaker 2: all the hottest music artists at the moment are women.
Speaker 2: I know it's not entirely true. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: country artist, there's a lot of rap artists, as a
Speaker 2: lot of who and there's all the red sharings and
Speaker 2: all the kind of versions of them.
Speaker 4: There's a post.
Speaker 2: Milne, the guy with the guitars. There's like all those
Speaker 2: guys too. I know that, but we're not interested in them,
Speaker 2: and the young women aren't interested in them. And the
Speaker 2: thing that makes me particularly excited about this is that
Speaker 2: when I was young, and I've always loved music, but
Speaker 2: everybody call was a bloke. There were the outliers, there's
Speaker 2: your Madonnas and whatever, but that was pop music, music
Speaker 2: that was taken seriously. Anyone who was considered a serious
Speaker 2: songwriter was almost entirely a male scene years ago. But
Speaker 2: Catly Moran writes a lot about this because she started
Speaker 2: as a music journalist and she would be the only
Speaker 2: woman in those rooms. Female musicians were seen as silly
Speaker 2: and frivolous, and even ten years ago, I'd argue, yes,
Speaker 2: of course there are the big iconic names, but now
Speaker 2: It's like, if you look at the charts at the moment,
Speaker 2: there's like a female, very mainstream singer for all kinds
Speaker 2: of different versions of sexuality and being female. Because you're
Speaker 2: Sabrina Carpenter looks very traditional, like this little blondie thing,
Speaker 2: but they've kind of turned up the edge on it.
Speaker 1: Polypocket.
Speaker 2: You've got obviously all the brilliant, angsty songwriter of our
Speaker 2: friend Taylor. If you're a thinky girl, you've got Charlie XCX,
Speaker 2: who just wants to party hard. You've got Chapel, who
Speaker 2: is just like an explosion in an excitement factory and
Speaker 2: is a brilliant songwriter, as Adele pointed out this week,
Speaker 2: and I feel like we've never had so many exciting versions.
Speaker 4: It's great, yeah of femininity.
Speaker 1: And there is Adele and Taylor's kind of more commercial.
Speaker 1: Adele's more commercial. But this is like a new generation
Speaker 1: and what I love. And to quote Catla Mareni when
Speaker 1: she was talking about how there was a time sort
Speaker 1: of ten twenty years probably less now, when every female
Speaker 1: artist had to look the same way, which was a
Speaker 1: very hot, skinny, sexy, white, very sexualized, very male, gaysy
Speaker 1: version of what it meant to be woman, and she's like,
Speaker 1: it's fine to have that, but men get all different kinds.
Speaker 1: There's Keith Urban and there's a Shecherin, and there's post Malone,
Speaker 1: and there's exactly and she said it would be lovely.
Speaker 1: And now we're at that point that there are, as
Speaker 1: you say, whole quite smartly, lots of different versions of it.
Speaker 1: It really is a different generation and a completely different
Speaker 1: aesthetic because if you look at Charlie XCX and Chapel
Speaker 1: Roone and even Sabrina Carpenter a little bit I can understand,
Speaker 1: particularly with the first two and Billie Eilish, it's a
Speaker 1: different version of female sexuality. It still might be not
Speaker 1: wearing many clothes, which you know is a trigger for me,
Speaker 1: but it's also like kind of scary. It's not pans
Speaker 1: in any way. Like Chaplan talks about her inspiration being
Speaker 1: drag queens, and Charlie XCX is like, and even Sabrina Carpenter.
Speaker 1: It's all about like blood and just all things that
Speaker 1: aren't traditionally. It's not demure, it's the opposite of demure.
Speaker 1: These women.
Speaker 4: I have a question, which is obviously social media TikTok
Speaker 4: in particular, has changed the music industry. Do we think
Speaker 4: that the music industry living on social has also given
Speaker 4: way to all of these women, right? Because women go
Speaker 4: better on social they just do. They cultivate bigger followings.
Speaker 4: They're the biggest influencers in the world. They know what
Speaker 4: they're doing. Charlie XCX, that album and Brat, I mean,
Speaker 4: the way that she mastered that was incredible. Men are
Speaker 4: not able to do that in nearly the same way.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to look at quite simply.
Speaker 4: Yeah, do we think that that's another thing that the
Speaker 4: TikTok age.
Speaker 1: That everything's about video now, Yeah, and that it's.
Speaker 4: Going to basically lift women up.
Speaker 2: But also it's kind of great that what's happened is
Speaker 2: that it used to be assumed that young girls and
Speaker 2: young women only wanted to put pictures of boys on
Speaker 2: their walls. I know, no one's putting pictures on their
Speaker 2: walls anymore, but the equivalent, right, look at obsess over,
Speaker 2: get really deep into the fandom of and that still exists.
Speaker 2: You know, the biggest artists in the world are actually
Speaker 2: all K pop artists, and that's a whole other world.
Speaker 2: But the fact that women, as you rightly point out,
Speaker 2: Jesse own social media in a way, and young women
Speaker 2: in particular, and that the people they're obsessing over are
Speaker 2: versions of themselves in different ways. I find that like
Speaker 2: culturally deeply satisfying. That when I was young, and you know,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be all like oh back in
Speaker 2: the day, but you know, I had my pictures of
Speaker 2: Duran Duran all over the wall, right, and I used
Speaker 2: to be like, I'm going to marry Simon Lebon. One day.
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking I'm going to make that music, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be them. I was like, I'm going to
Speaker 2: marry them and be next to them, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. You know, maybe a little bit more evolved idea.
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in music journal and I'm going
Speaker 2: to get to meet them, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: And I think that now you can't be it can
Speaker 2: people are very much And the interesting thing about the
Speaker 2: tiktokification because she brought up the point about how songs
Speaker 2: have gotten shorter and how Sabrina Carpenter's album is Manu.
Speaker 2: I guess that's in the title, right, the short and
Speaker 2: sweet title. All of this explosion of female excellence looks organic,
Speaker 2: but it's actually very carefully marketed. Like I'm obsessed with
Speaker 2: the fact I've read about it lots of times now
Speaker 2: that the Brat green of Charlie XCX that looked like
Speaker 2: the most low five shit that someone put together on
Speaker 2: their phone. She went through sixty three different shades of
Speaker 2: green to perfectly market research brat green and exactly what
Speaker 2: it was. And there's a whole thesis about like why
Speaker 2: it's that particular color and not that one, and how
Speaker 2: there was but Tago green, and we don't want that,
Speaker 2: but we want this one. It's a bit scary, it's
Speaker 2: a bit like it's just as manufactured really as pop
Speaker 2: music has ever been. But it's just that now women
Speaker 2: are much more involved in it rather than being the product.
Speaker 2: So if you think about, like, even in the naughdies,
Speaker 2: Jessica Simpson is making music because some yep, but the
Speaker 2: strings are largely being pulled by male corporations. May they
Speaker 2: still are in lots of ways, but the women seem
Speaker 2: much more involved in it. But the thing about the
Speaker 2: tiktokification of music, I think it's easy to roll your
Speaker 2: eyes about it because if there isn't a catchy hook,
Speaker 2: catchy bridge, it's over. But great pop music has always
Speaker 2: been that, not great music full stop. There's lots of
Speaker 2: music out there that's much more complicated and would never
Speaker 2: work for you on TikTok. But the great pop songs
Speaker 2: of our time have always been about short, tight, catchy
Speaker 2: get into your head and you can't get them out,
Speaker 2: and TikTok just rewards that and rewards that and rewards that.
Speaker 4: But pop music is, as you say, it's always been
Speaker 4: shaped by the medium. So it was a vinyl record
Speaker 4: could only hold so much, so then that affected the
Speaker 4: length of songs, and then on radio you can't go
Speaker 4: over three and a half minutes because you've got to
Speaker 4: play an act, right. I saw this graph of like
Speaker 4: how long songs are, and they're just getting shorter and
Speaker 4: shorter and shorter. Which one thing is TikTok. The other
Speaker 4: thing that's impacting it that I didn't know was Spotify.
Speaker 4: So artists earn royalties only if a listener stays engaged
Speaker 4: for at least thirty seconds. So that is why songs
Speaker 4: have much shorter intros, so you know how the good
Speaker 4: stuff get to the good stuff straight away. I don't
Speaker 4: have time for a song that takes a while to
Speaker 4: get going that builds, and.
Speaker 1: You've got to have the chorus in that thirty seconds.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a pay per play model which incentivizes artists
Speaker 4: to create shorter songs because that encourages more replays and
Speaker 4: more replays and more revenue. So we cut the bridge,
Speaker 4: we put the chorus in, We get the bit I
Speaker 4: recognized from TikTok in the first eight seconds, and then listen.
Speaker 4: In fact, after the thirty seconds, it doesn't matter if
Speaker 4: they go back and replay it, because I've already got
Speaker 4: my money.
Speaker 2: You can see that as very depressing. Yeah, that can
Speaker 2: definitely be seen by musical purists as extremely depressing, or
Speaker 2: it can be seen as a challenge how to write
Speaker 2: a great song that works for that. I mean, I
Speaker 2: chapel Rown songs are bloody brilliant. It wouldn't matter to
Speaker 2: me if I'd never seen her face. Like those songs
Speaker 2: are great. There's a song on the album called Coffee.
Speaker 2: You would love it, Jesse. Yeah, that is all about
Speaker 2: I can't go for coffee with you because it's never
Speaker 2: just coffee. That is one of the best written songs
Speaker 2: I've heard in one hundred years.
Speaker 4: But it ticks all those But then I suppose as well. Right,
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about you know, the songs we might love
Speaker 4: from forty years ago or whatever, or your Fleetwood Mac
Speaker 4: or whatever that tell a story, that take their time,
Speaker 4: that provide context. Now there is no such thing as context,
Speaker 4: because your please Please Please, Sabrina Carpenter is a SoundBite
Speaker 4: on TikTok needs to make sense on its own.
Speaker 1: But not everybody's on TikTok.
Speaker 2: So I think that that's just a particular kind of market.
Speaker 2: Look at me, as friend Taylor all her songs.
Speaker 4: But Taylor like I'm the problem, it's me or whatever,
Speaker 4: like that's designed for TikTok. And when you say not
Speaker 4: everyone's on TikTok, the billboard charts are directly influenced by TikTok.
Speaker 4: Is just definding interesting.
Speaker 1: Because artists don't make money from that. So a lot
Speaker 1: of the record companies tried to pull all their artists
Speaker 1: from TikTok, and Taylor You laterally went back before she
Speaker 1: released Tortured Poets because she knew that if your music
Speaker 1: can't be used on TikTok, it's very hard to break
Speaker 1: an album.
Speaker 2: That's true, but I think it's always been thus that
Speaker 2: the music industry just like movies and TV.
Speaker 3: There's prestige, there's pop.
Speaker 2: There's always going to be room, but they're not going
Speaker 2: to make as much money for the songs that But
Speaker 2: there is also a massive movement of men with guitars,
Speaker 2: and country music is enormous and rap music is enormous,
Speaker 2: So we're.
Speaker 3: Talking about a very specific part.
Speaker 4: Yet this came up at the the Logi's actually, and
Speaker 4: you've heard every Australian musician talk about this, that there
Speaker 4: has never been a harder time to be a musician
Speaker 4: and to make money from and to make money because
Speaker 4: what you've got is the Sabrina Carpenter's and the Taylor
Speaker 4: Swifts and the Charli XCX have such domination over the
Speaker 4: market that the only way for other people to seemingly
Speaker 4: get discovered is TikTok. And you will see that any
Speaker 4: Australian artist who releases a song, go find them on
Speaker 4: TikTok and look at how many videos they've had to
Speaker 4: make to try and make that sound go viral. And
Speaker 4: they've expressed enormous frustration that there is no A and R,
Speaker 4: there's no publicity strategy anymore. It's just get big on TikTok.
Speaker 4: And you shrug each other.
Speaker 2: So live music, which is a way that smaller fans
Speaker 2: used to get seen, Like we love a big event
Speaker 2: gig where everyone has to queue up for forty million
Speaker 2: hours on the internet to buy tickets, but it's very
Speaker 2: hard for younger, smaller artists to fill rooms. Anyway, that's
Speaker 2: all we've got time for on the show today. Out
Speaker 2: louder Is, thank you for listening. But before we go,
Speaker 2: we did something special this week which we're hoping to
Speaker 2: keep doing if you like it, of course, which is
Speaker 2: we did a US election special with Amelia Lesti. You
Speaker 2: might remember Amelia from the show that she and Mea
Speaker 2: used to do.
Speaker 1: Called tell Me It's going to be Okay.
Speaker 3: They had to stop doing it because.
Speaker 2: It wasn't exactly And Amelia is a very experienced of wise,
Speaker 2: an esteemed journalist who's actually spent twenty years living in
Speaker 2: the US, including five in DC. She is the deputy
Speaker 2: headit of a magazine call Foreign Policy, so she is
Speaker 2: so smart on this stuff. Here is a little bit
Speaker 2: of the episode we recorded for subscribers about.
Speaker 3: The American election.
Speaker 1: I am obsessed with JD Fance.
Speaker 5: To me, he just seems like if you ask chat
Speaker 5: gpt to create the least likable person ever. He is
Speaker 5: so unlikable that I cannot look away. He is like
Speaker 5: a character from the office. Has everyone seen the video
Speaker 5: in the donuts shop from last week? No, So basically
Speaker 5: he went into a donut shop in Georgia.
Speaker 1: He has never ordered a donut or any kind of
Speaker 1: beats good in his life.
Speaker 5: He asks her to put whatever donuts makes sense in
Speaker 5: the box, whatever donuts makes sense?
Speaker 1: And how good is that conversation? And I'm allowed to
Speaker 1: say it well because it's mostly Amelia talking and she
Speaker 1: the best thing about it. If you want to listen
Speaker 1: to the rest of this episode, we will put a
Speaker 1: link in a show notes.
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.
Speaker 4: Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening. If
Speaker 4: you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 4: subscribing to MoMA MAA is the very best way to
Speaker 4: do so. There's a link in the episode description.