WEBVTT - What Elle Macpherson Did Next 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.527 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.607 --> 0:00:26.247 Mamma Mia. Out loud What women are actually talking about 0:00:26.287 --> 0:00:28.167 on Wednesday, the fourth of September. 0:00:28.287 --> 0:00:30.007 I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm. 0:00:29.807 --> 0:00:32.767 Me Friedman, and we've already done a segment where we've 0:00:32.767 --> 0:00:36.087 had an argument just while we were setting up the microphones. 0:00:36.527 --> 0:00:38.767 That's very standard for this kind of day. 0:00:38.927 --> 0:00:40.887 And I'm Jesse Stevens and on. 0:00:40.767 --> 0:00:44.247 The show today, why El McPherson is being branded as 0:00:44.367 --> 0:00:45.927 dangerously irresponsible? 0:00:46.527 --> 0:00:48.127 Also, people asking you. 0:00:48.087 --> 0:00:50.047 What you want for your next big birthday, We've got 0:00:50.047 --> 0:00:53.847 an idea that's either genius or absolute torture. And finally, 0:00:53.967 --> 0:00:57.007 pop music is all about women inside the genius selling 0:00:57.087 --> 0:00:58.887 of Sabrina, Charlie and Chapel. 0:00:59.287 --> 0:01:00.327 But first Jesse. 0:01:00.727 --> 0:01:03.967 This week, much of Israel's economy was shut down due 0:01:04.007 --> 0:01:07.287 to a general strike where civilians put pressure on Prime 0:01:07.327 --> 0:01:11.047 Minister Benjamin Netnyaho to agree to a seize fire deal 0:01:11.167 --> 0:01:14.567 in Gaza. This is seen as the biggest push by 0:01:14.687 --> 0:01:18.927 Israelis yet to force netna whose government to end this war. 0:01:19.647 --> 0:01:23.847 These strikes come after the bodies of six Israeli hostages 0:01:23.927 --> 0:01:27.007 were found in a tunnel in the Gaza Strip. They 0:01:27.087 --> 0:01:31.247 had been shot at close range. Ninety seven hostages remain 0:01:31.607 --> 0:01:35.167 and Netnya, who is widely believed to be prolonging the 0:01:35.207 --> 0:01:37.927 war rather than prioritizing their safe return. 0:01:38.167 --> 0:01:42.087 This was so devastating because he the families of the 0:01:42.127 --> 0:01:46.527 remaining hostages and the hostages who were killed came out 0:01:46.647 --> 0:01:49.247 and people are very angry in Israel with Netna Who. 0:01:49.247 --> 0:01:51.647 They want the war over. The whole world wants the 0:01:51.687 --> 0:01:54.487 war over. They want the hostages returned, they want their 0:01:54.487 --> 0:01:57.007 family back. I don't think there's anyone who wants to 0:01:57.047 --> 0:02:02.727 prolong this war really, except for Netna Who and his supporters. Unfortunately, 0:02:02.767 --> 0:02:05.887 this what started as a protest, they tried to turn 0:02:05.887 --> 0:02:08.607 into a strike. He's still got the support of the 0:02:08.687 --> 0:02:11.727 right and he just needs to go. It's almost a 0:02:11.807 --> 0:02:14.927 year since this war started after the massacre on October seven, 0:02:15.647 --> 0:02:16.967 and too many people have died. 0:02:17.327 --> 0:02:20.647 So far, thirty three hostages have been declared dead by 0:02:20.727 --> 0:02:25.287 Israeli authorities, with one hundred and seventy five killed on 0:02:25.327 --> 0:02:29.207 October seven. That's based on social security data, and since 0:02:29.247 --> 0:02:31.727 October seven, that is, as you say, eleven months ago. 0:02:31.767 --> 0:02:35.727 Now more than forty thousand Palestinians have been killed, according 0:02:35.767 --> 0:02:39.287 to local health authorities. Most of those are women and children. 0:02:39.927 --> 0:02:43.287 The majority of Gaza's two point three million residents have 0:02:43.407 --> 0:02:46.807 been forced to flee due to Israel's military assault and 0:02:46.887 --> 0:02:49.327 due to those living conditions. There's news out just in 0:02:49.327 --> 0:02:52.367 the last few days. We knew that disease was spreading, 0:02:52.567 --> 0:02:55.407 but this now includes the first case of polio in 0:02:55.487 --> 0:02:57.167 Gaza in twenty five years. 0:02:57.287 --> 0:03:00.367 So now the world just paused to vaccinate two hundred 0:03:00.407 --> 0:03:04.167 and seventy thousand children in Gaza against polio. It's a 0:03:04.247 --> 0:03:08.247 humanitarian disaster. There are so many people suffering on both sides. 0:03:08.327 --> 0:03:10.207 It just has to end and for more. 0:03:10.287 --> 0:03:13.007 We are covering this news story on our twice daily 0:03:13.047 --> 0:03:15.607 news podcast, The Quickie, as well as on Mamma Maya. 0:03:16.607 --> 0:03:21.287 In twenty seventeen, Elle macpherson was diagnosed with breast cancer. 0:03:21.647 --> 0:03:24.127 We know this because she writes two chapters about it 0:03:24.167 --> 0:03:26.367 in her new book, which is called Elle and It's 0:03:26.487 --> 0:03:29.887 part memoir, part self help. I've read it for reasons 0:03:29.887 --> 0:03:32.247 we won't go into today. That was kept very quiet 0:03:32.287 --> 0:03:36.447 at the time. Yes, it's very much seen as a revelation, 0:03:36.967 --> 0:03:40.207 is the tabloid language we're using. At the time, she 0:03:40.247 --> 0:03:42.887 was living in Miami, she was married to her second husband, 0:03:43.007 --> 0:03:45.847 Jeff Sofer, and her two boys were in their teens. 0:03:46.527 --> 0:03:49.247 Elle was already a big devotee at this point of 0:03:49.327 --> 0:03:52.087 what we broadly call wellness, and she'd already started a 0:03:52.127 --> 0:03:56.647 supplement business called Welco in twenty fourteen. Now, like many 0:03:56.727 --> 0:03:59.607 many women before her and since, and women listening to 0:03:59.687 --> 0:04:03.727 this show right now, she was initially completely flattened by 0:04:03.767 --> 0:04:06.367 the news that the investigations into a lump in her 0:04:06.487 --> 0:04:10.527 breast had found a cancerous tumor. The advice was that 0:04:10.567 --> 0:04:15.247 she should have a mystectomy with radiation, chemotherapy, and hormone therapy. 0:04:15.927 --> 0:04:18.167 She writes that her initial doctor told her this would 0:04:18.207 --> 0:04:20.607 be a two year process, and she writes that she 0:04:20.807 --> 0:04:26.407 was understandably flooded with panic, fear, and confusion. The reason 0:04:26.447 --> 0:04:29.487 that you're seeing headlines about what el macpherson did next 0:04:29.647 --> 0:04:32.887 everywhere this week is because it's not what most women 0:04:33.007 --> 0:04:36.167 do in this situation, as she details in the book, 0:04:36.207 --> 0:04:39.247 as we've said for the first time, Instead, she went 0:04:39.287 --> 0:04:42.567 into an intense research state she got opinions from more 0:04:42.607 --> 0:04:46.287 than thirty two different doctors on what they thought her 0:04:46.287 --> 0:04:49.167 treatment options were. Speaking to other people in her life too, 0:04:49.167 --> 0:04:52.527 her kids, their father, her husband, a friends, and ultimately, 0:04:52.727 --> 0:04:55.727 she writes, she decided to go a different route. I 0:04:55.807 --> 0:04:59.607 didn't believe she writes that drugs and modern pharmaceuticals were 0:04:59.687 --> 0:05:03.047 the only answer. I chose a holistic approach. It was 0:05:03.087 --> 0:05:06.527 the hardest decision I have ever made in my life. 0:05:06.607 --> 0:05:09.487 She went to a natural therapy's clinic in Arizona, where 0:05:09.487 --> 0:05:13.287 she underwent eight months of intense natural and putting that 0:05:13.327 --> 0:05:16.327 in kind of inverted commas therapies which are way too 0:05:16.367 --> 0:05:17.847 long to list here. She goes into a lot of 0:05:17.887 --> 0:05:20.127 detail about it in the book, but included everything from 0:05:20.167 --> 0:05:26.527 prayer to IV infusions and herbal therapies. Unsurprisingly, this chapter, 0:05:26.807 --> 0:05:29.687 these two chapters actually of McPherson's book, have drawn a 0:05:29.807 --> 0:05:32.287 lot of attention, and lots of people this week are 0:05:32.327 --> 0:05:36.567 branding it's shockingly irresponsible to suggest to people that they 0:05:36.647 --> 0:05:40.887 too should refuse traditional treatments, or that there is implicit 0:05:40.927 --> 0:05:44.567 in publishing this approach a level of judgment about the 0:05:44.647 --> 0:05:48.607 right and wrong ways to approach health and healing Mia. 0:05:49.567 --> 0:05:52.647 This feels like it's thrown a conversation back into the 0:05:52.647 --> 0:05:54.927 headlines that had kind of died down for a while 0:05:54.967 --> 0:05:58.607 there from that sort of peak Bell Gibson Pete Evans 0:05:58.647 --> 0:06:03.127 moment where all this sort of so called natural therapies 0:06:03.167 --> 0:06:08.007 were everywhere and being widely disproven. Often is it dangerous 0:06:08.247 --> 0:06:11.927 for a woman to seemingly just tell the truth about 0:06:11.967 --> 0:06:13.607 what she did in this situation. 0:06:14.487 --> 0:06:17.007 I'm really torn about this, and I wanted to start 0:06:17.047 --> 0:06:20.567 off by saying, we are sending our love to everybody 0:06:20.727 --> 0:06:24.767 who is feeling really upset by this story, either because 0:06:25.247 --> 0:06:29.887 they have cancer, someone they love has cancer, someone they 0:06:29.967 --> 0:06:34.247 love has been lost to cancer, because whether she meant 0:06:34.247 --> 0:06:38.767 to or not, the implication is that if people just 0:06:38.847 --> 0:06:42.007 did the right thing, I mean, everyone does what they 0:06:42.047 --> 0:06:44.487 think is the right thing. And I do believe I 0:06:44.487 --> 0:06:46.247 will always give the benefit of the doubt that el 0:06:46.327 --> 0:06:49.167 McPherson thought she's doing the right thing. And I think 0:06:49.207 --> 0:06:51.927 we also should be clear, and she's clear in the 0:06:51.927 --> 0:06:55.327 book she's not suggesting that other people do it, but 0:06:55.447 --> 0:06:59.887 it's implied. You know, she sells a book, she sells 0:07:00.087 --> 0:07:02.927 wellness products, and she also does not say that those 0:07:02.967 --> 0:07:04.727 wellness products cut her cancer, so. 0:07:04.767 --> 0:07:07.487 She doesn't, and in the interests of fairness, she makes 0:07:07.527 --> 0:07:09.727 a big point in the book of like this was 0:07:09.847 --> 0:07:12.967 right for me. I'm not saying it was right for you. Yeah, 0:07:13.047 --> 0:07:16.647 but that's not how people feel, particularly when they're in 0:07:16.727 --> 0:07:18.967 the heat of this experience. 0:07:19.447 --> 0:07:22.967 I spoke to one of my closest friends who's a 0:07:23.007 --> 0:07:27.007 breast physician and breast surgeon today and I sort of 0:07:27.047 --> 0:07:28.967 sent her link to this article and I said, good 0:07:28.967 --> 0:07:31.367 news for all your patients. They should just light a 0:07:31.407 --> 0:07:34.687 candle and try some prayer and it wakes in Arizona. 0:07:34.847 --> 0:07:38.447 And she just replied, this just makes me weep. It 0:07:38.527 --> 0:07:42.687 makes me weep because there's never a more vulnerable time 0:07:42.727 --> 0:07:44.887 in your life than when you are diagnosed with cancer, 0:07:45.287 --> 0:07:48.247 or it's one of the most vulnerable times, and it 0:07:48.287 --> 0:07:52.007 can be really, really confusing. And I do support anyone's 0:07:52.087 --> 0:07:54.527 right to have bodily autonomy and decide what they do 0:07:54.567 --> 0:07:57.167 and don't want to do. And it's not like we 0:07:57.247 --> 0:08:00.807 can say she shouldn't be allowed to talk about it, 0:08:00.927 --> 0:08:05.447 or we shouldn't publish her book because she's talked about 0:08:05.447 --> 0:08:09.607 something that we feel is irresponsible, because everybody can do 0:08:09.647 --> 0:08:10.087 what they want. 0:08:10.127 --> 0:08:12.047 She's an adult if we don't think she should have 0:08:12.087 --> 0:08:14.087 included that story in her book. But we're saying we 0:08:14.087 --> 0:08:17.087 don't want to censor anyone. What was she supposed to 0:08:17.127 --> 0:08:19.687 do with that story, not necessarily el McPherson herself. But 0:08:19.767 --> 0:08:22.367 this is a big community, this wellness community, that has 0:08:22.407 --> 0:08:24.407 all kinds of different stories within it. Are we saying 0:08:24.407 --> 0:08:26.767 we don't want to hear it? It's irresponsible to even 0:08:26.887 --> 0:08:28.847 speak the words, what do you think? 0:08:29.287 --> 0:08:31.087 It's really hard, isn't it? Because that is part of 0:08:31.087 --> 0:08:35.287 her story, and it's obviously been a life changing event 0:08:35.447 --> 0:08:39.967 for her. And if she truly does believe, which benefit 0:08:39.967 --> 0:08:42.487 of the doubt, she does, that this course of treatment 0:08:42.807 --> 0:08:46.007 was helpful to her, she would want to share that 0:08:46.047 --> 0:08:48.167 information with other people. 0:08:48.847 --> 0:08:51.487 It would seem there are a million podcasts out there, 0:08:51.527 --> 0:08:53.527 there are a million sites and chat rooms and all 0:08:53.567 --> 0:08:57.647 those things where this kind of therapy has discussed a lot, right, 0:08:58.167 --> 0:09:00.407 And one of the things that's interesting about the way 0:09:00.447 --> 0:09:02.207 we react when it comes into the light is do 0:09:02.247 --> 0:09:04.647 we just push it further underground, which might be good 0:09:04.687 --> 0:09:07.727 in some ways but bad in others, because if you 0:09:07.767 --> 0:09:10.327 shine light on it, bring it into the mainstream, it 0:09:10.327 --> 0:09:11.967 can be more of an open discussion, whereas if you 0:09:12.087 --> 0:09:14.687 every time anyone says anything about it, you tell them 0:09:14.687 --> 0:09:17.207 to shut up. They're just going off into corners of 0:09:17.247 --> 0:09:19.127 the internet where they're like self. 0:09:19.087 --> 0:09:22.887 Almost radicalizing it. Yeah yeah, yeah, But we talk on 0:09:22.967 --> 0:09:25.127 podcasts and write books and all of those things, and 0:09:25.687 --> 0:09:27.407 you tell stories about your own life. And often I 0:09:27.447 --> 0:09:29.527 go to tell a story. This has happened multiple times, 0:09:29.567 --> 0:09:32.567 and I have stopped myself and gone, it's actually, isn't helpful. 0:09:32.807 --> 0:09:34.687 It's gonna make someone feel like shit, Yeah, this is 0:09:34.727 --> 0:09:37.407 gonna and it's true, and it speaks to a truth 0:09:37.407 --> 0:09:40.207 that might make someone feel seen or whatever. But this 0:09:40.247 --> 0:09:43.687 isn't a private journal. This was a memoir, a book 0:09:43.687 --> 0:09:45.047 that was going to be published and read by a 0:09:45.127 --> 0:09:47.567 lot of people. And you know, she's talked about the 0:09:47.607 --> 0:09:50.447 cancer thing in the Australian Women's Weekly exclusive that was 0:09:50.487 --> 0:09:53.287 part of the promotion of it. I think you make 0:09:53.327 --> 0:09:55.527 a choice there, because a memoir isn't for l A 0:09:55.567 --> 0:09:56.767 memoir is for your audience. 0:09:57.127 --> 0:10:00.327 But let's be clear, it's all about wellness and all 0:10:00.367 --> 0:10:05.807 these supplements. While she looks not sixty but incredibly hot 0:10:06.327 --> 0:10:08.727 and incredibly not like anyone else, I mean, she's on 0:10:08.767 --> 0:10:11.007 with first, but then she's also elmcpherson with a lot 0:10:11.007 --> 0:10:13.287 of work and a lot of self care with it, 0:10:13.327 --> 0:10:16.287 As she said, because the inference when you've got someone 0:10:16.367 --> 0:10:20.967 saying buy these products, and you market them with shots 0:10:20.967 --> 0:10:24.647 of yourself in a bikini and looking a certain way, 0:10:25.287 --> 0:10:27.447 the inference is that if you take these products, you 0:10:27.487 --> 0:10:28.247 can look like me. 0:10:28.967 --> 0:10:31.247 When I was reading these excerpts, I wondered if the 0:10:31.287 --> 0:10:34.887 inference was if you take my products, or if you 0:10:35.007 --> 0:10:39.047 live a life, a healthy life that is somewhat like me, 0:10:39.087 --> 0:10:42.327 and you have a holistic approach to health, then perhaps 0:10:42.367 --> 0:10:44.327 you too can cure your own cancer. She does not 0:10:44.407 --> 0:10:46.487 say those words, but I am saying that that's I 0:10:46.487 --> 0:10:49.367 think a feeling that people are getting. I reckon. It's 0:10:49.367 --> 0:10:51.287 important to go back to some of the facts, right 0:10:51.327 --> 0:10:55.327 because I saw a few medical doctors saying that the 0:10:55.407 --> 0:10:57.207 bit that's being left out of a lot of this 0:10:57.327 --> 0:11:00.887 reporting is that she discovered it was cancer following a 0:11:00.967 --> 0:11:04.407 lump ectomy, which was removing the growth in twenty seventeen, 0:11:04.567 --> 0:11:07.207 and a few doctors have said, yeah, you had a 0:11:07.287 --> 0:11:10.727 lump removed. That lump may have been so lucky that 0:11:10.727 --> 0:11:12.807 that lump had most of the cancer as cells in 0:11:12.847 --> 0:11:16.487 it a mastectomy. The reason that that might be suggested 0:11:16.567 --> 0:11:19.127 or given an option by a medical professional is that 0:11:19.167 --> 0:11:23.287 it reduces your chances of getting breast cancer in the future, 0:11:23.327 --> 0:11:26.807 because we know that it can come back. There are, 0:11:26.847 --> 0:11:32.007 of course, a few lifestyle factors that would really work 0:11:32.047 --> 0:11:35.207 in el McPherson's favor. Right, she's healthy, she exercises, she 0:11:35.247 --> 0:11:37.567 eats well, blah blah blah, and those things a doctor 0:11:37.607 --> 0:11:40.247 would say are great starters when it comes to health. 0:11:40.247 --> 0:11:43.407 And the cans are rich, he is surely yeah, and 0:11:43.487 --> 0:11:44.407 the access. 0:11:44.047 --> 0:11:47.847 That she has to these the data suggests that there 0:11:47.847 --> 0:11:50.447 are certain things about lifestyle choices that would contribute to 0:11:50.447 --> 0:11:54.367 your risk of having cancer. However, I know people in 0:11:54.407 --> 0:11:58.807 my life who were incredibly healthy, incredibly active, ate, really well, 0:11:58.847 --> 0:12:01.807 all of those things, and they died of cancer. And 0:12:01.847 --> 0:12:04.847 that's not because of choices that they made. That was 0:12:04.927 --> 0:12:08.567 because I heard an expert say, everyone gets a different 0:12:08.647 --> 0:12:10.327 kind of cancer. You might get a Mini Cooper and 0:12:10.367 --> 0:12:13.247 you might get a truck. And maybe she had a 0:12:13.247 --> 0:12:16.727 particular type and her story is not over, As every 0:12:16.807 --> 0:12:19.487 cancer survivor will say, they don't feel like their story 0:12:19.647 --> 0:12:23.767 is over. I just wish that she didn't print this 0:12:24.367 --> 0:12:28.727 in a book that does overlap, and in the press 0:12:28.767 --> 0:12:30.927 she does, and in the marketing she does, she does 0:12:31.007 --> 0:12:34.327 talk about this supplement company. The people that she works 0:12:34.367 --> 0:12:38.847 with have really questionable relationships with health. Obviously, she dated 0:12:38.887 --> 0:12:41.927 Andrew Wakefield for a period, who was the doctor who 0:12:42.127 --> 0:12:46.447 published a fraudulent paper about the relationship between vaccines and autism. 0:12:46.647 --> 0:12:49.207 Many people who she works with and who helped formulate 0:12:49.207 --> 0:12:52.287 the supplements claim to have cured their own cancer with 0:12:52.687 --> 0:12:57.527 like a detox or a particular health regime, And I'm 0:12:57.567 --> 0:13:00.247 going to trust the studies that that's not what works 0:13:00.247 --> 0:13:00.927 for most people. 0:13:01.047 --> 0:13:04.007 The thing that's really hard whenever this topic is brought 0:13:04.087 --> 0:13:08.327 up is that for most people that I know who 0:13:08.407 --> 0:13:11.767 find themselves in this situation, they actually do a lot 0:13:11.767 --> 0:13:15.487 of things. They will follow their doctor's advice. And the 0:13:15.527 --> 0:13:18.127 point about privilege is absolutely spot on. If I was 0:13:18.927 --> 0:13:22.687 diagnosed tomorrow, I would not have the access to thirty 0:13:22.727 --> 0:13:25.207 two different medical professionals. You go and see somebody, you 0:13:25.247 --> 0:13:27.727 do what they tell you. You trust in the doctor, but 0:13:27.847 --> 0:13:30.647 they also most people I know do try out some 0:13:30.727 --> 0:13:33.687 alternative therapies, will do different things to their diets, will 0:13:33.687 --> 0:13:36.487 try different supplements. We'll do it like people are open 0:13:36.567 --> 0:13:36.847 to this. 0:13:36.967 --> 0:13:39.287 It's not lights are open to that too, of course 0:13:39.287 --> 0:13:39.527 they are. 0:13:39.607 --> 0:13:43.127 It's not like there's a because we've talked about this 0:13:43.167 --> 0:13:45.527 on the show before that sometimes I get uncomfortable when 0:13:45.567 --> 0:13:49.087 we're very dismissive of wellness because for a lot of women, 0:13:49.167 --> 0:13:51.647 in a lot of different health circumstances, they have not 0:13:51.887 --> 0:13:55.967 found that's so called traditional and inverted commerce. Medicine has 0:13:56.007 --> 0:13:59.887 necessarily understood their problems, has necessarily solved their problems, has 0:13:59.927 --> 0:14:04.047 taken them seriously. Cancer is in a different bucket, and 0:14:04.087 --> 0:14:08.087 as Jesse has already expressed brilliantly with that analogy, cancer 0:14:08.167 --> 0:14:09.167 is so different for. 0:14:09.327 --> 0:14:11.247 Everybody who gets it. 0:14:11.247 --> 0:14:12.967 It's not the same as some of those things that 0:14:13.447 --> 0:14:17.847 women are rightly questioning the advice they're given and pursuing things. 0:14:17.847 --> 0:14:23.287 So I'll always celebrate our permission, right yeah, to explore 0:14:23.287 --> 0:14:24.967 different things that work for us and make changes to 0:14:24.967 --> 0:14:26.527 our life. And sometimes they're going to seem a bit 0:14:26.567 --> 0:14:28.407 weird to other people and they're not going to understand them. 0:14:28.767 --> 0:14:30.967 The problem with this, and this is what someone I 0:14:31.007 --> 0:14:33.447 know who's going through this said, is that by putting 0:14:33.447 --> 0:14:36.207 this out there in this aspirational way, because as you're 0:14:36.247 --> 0:14:38.327 saying me or I think your point is, is the 0:14:38.367 --> 0:14:42.167 brand here is very aspirational. Is that she and this 0:14:42.207 --> 0:14:44.167 is what my friend said to me, that it feels 0:14:44.207 --> 0:14:46.527 like she's judging all the fools who just follow the 0:14:46.567 --> 0:14:49.967 doctor's advice. And the thing is is, even though I'm 0:14:50.007 --> 0:14:52.527 sure that's not what she's doing, this is one of 0:14:52.567 --> 0:14:55.287 those moments. It's not like early motherhood, but it is 0:14:55.327 --> 0:15:00.007 in a way in that you are in such a vulnerable, confused, 0:15:00.687 --> 0:15:04.087 difficult position where the stakes are enormously high, and all 0:15:04.127 --> 0:15:06.487 this different information is coming at you, and you've made 0:15:06.487 --> 0:15:10.047 your choice based on what trained profess are telling you 0:15:10.087 --> 0:15:13.487 to do, and then you're being sort of encouraged to 0:15:13.487 --> 0:15:15.287 think that maybe you took the easy. 0:15:15.007 --> 0:15:15.807 Way or something. 0:15:15.927 --> 0:15:18.487 The arrogance of it is always breathtaking to me. This 0:15:18.567 --> 0:15:22.007 idea of thirty two doctors told her to do something 0:15:22.047 --> 0:15:23.807 and she decided to do something else. 0:15:24.287 --> 0:15:26.887 I would never do that. I am such a rule. 0:15:27.527 --> 0:15:29.967 But also I'm so if the doctor tells me to 0:15:29.967 --> 0:15:32.967 do something, I'm like, yep, okay, Like I am so. 0:15:33.167 --> 0:15:37.127 In saying that, I know people who, for very valid 0:15:37.167 --> 0:15:40.967 and understandable reasons, said no to chemo. Chemo is not 0:15:41.327 --> 0:15:44.007 the easy way out. Chemo in itself is a risk, 0:15:44.087 --> 0:15:46.287 surgery is a risk, a mastectomy is a risk, all 0:15:46.327 --> 0:15:49.047 of those things, and every woman has every right to 0:15:49.527 --> 0:15:53.327 choose not to do those things. I find it interesting 0:15:53.367 --> 0:15:56.047 how the term holistic has been weaponized as well, because, 0:15:56.047 --> 0:15:59.807 as you say, Holly, if you do get a mastectomy 0:16:00.047 --> 0:16:02.887 or chemotherapy and maybe you take a supplement and you 0:16:02.967 --> 0:16:05.927 do yoga and you meditate and you do acupuncture, that's 0:16:05.927 --> 0:16:06.887 pretty holistic to me. 0:16:06.967 --> 0:16:09.207 Yeah, so, and it is what a lot of women do. 0:16:09.647 --> 0:16:12.567 Yes, And I was reading that even if you're taking 0:16:12.607 --> 0:16:15.287 a supplement or whatever, as long as you're transparent with 0:16:15.287 --> 0:16:18.007 your doctor, because sometimes it can intersect with other medicine things. 0:16:18.007 --> 0:16:20.887 So a big problem is people feeling a bit ashamed 0:16:20.927 --> 0:16:22.927 that they can't say to their doctor, I'm trying something 0:16:22.967 --> 0:16:25.967 that's a little bit left of center. I mean, people 0:16:26.007 --> 0:16:27.647 have been dealing with their health in lots of different 0:16:27.647 --> 0:16:30.447 ways for a lot of different years, and cancer is 0:16:30.487 --> 0:16:33.887 what it does to people's mental health is horrific. But 0:16:33.967 --> 0:16:36.847 there is just something in the tone and in the 0:16:36.887 --> 0:16:39.927 way that this has been presented. And I've heard her 0:16:39.967 --> 0:16:43.207 said in the same kind of breath, you know. I 0:16:43.287 --> 0:16:45.447 just want women to make a choice for themselves and 0:16:45.487 --> 0:16:48.887 all of that rhetoric. That's like, it's a hard enough 0:16:48.927 --> 0:16:53.047 decision already without feeling like someone's telling you made them. 0:16:53.167 --> 0:16:56.447 I just think a supermodel's view is irrelevant. It's not 0:16:56.487 --> 0:16:59.567 like I'm saying we should burn her book or ban 0:16:59.767 --> 0:17:02.687 her from being interviewed or censor what she says. I 0:17:02.767 --> 0:17:06.367 just find it incredibly unethical, not the speaking, but also 0:17:06.407 --> 0:17:07.527 the selling the products. 0:17:08.047 --> 0:17:12.567 Steve Jobs very famously declined traditional treatment for pancreatic cancer, 0:17:12.607 --> 0:17:14.927 and he did the dietary supplements and acupuncture and stuff, 0:17:15.167 --> 0:17:18.687 and his biographer said he deeply, deeply regretted it towards 0:17:18.807 --> 0:17:20.887 the end of his life. So that's another part of 0:17:20.927 --> 0:17:21.367 the story. 0:17:21.447 --> 0:17:24.247 There was a young woman who I knew from my 0:17:24.287 --> 0:17:27.247 time in magazine. She was diagnosed with cancer, very curable 0:17:27.287 --> 0:17:32.727 cancer early, and she was advised on a certain course 0:17:32.727 --> 0:17:37.287 of medical treatment, which she decided not to pursue. And 0:17:37.287 --> 0:17:39.207 then her mum was diagnosed with cancer. Her mom did 0:17:39.247 --> 0:17:41.967 the same thing and they both died, and she also said, 0:17:42.047 --> 0:17:44.607 towards the end, I really regret it, and my lives 0:17:44.607 --> 0:17:46.047 could have very likely been saved. 0:17:46.167 --> 0:17:49.887 I struggle with all of these conversations because it feels 0:17:49.967 --> 0:17:51.447 like that's also blame, you. 0:17:51.407 --> 0:17:53.887 Know what I mean. It feels like that's also blame. 0:17:53.927 --> 0:17:57.167 It's saying that was an irresponsible choice, you shouldn't have 0:17:57.167 --> 0:17:57.447 done that. 0:17:57.487 --> 0:17:59.687 And I do think think it's more they blamed themselves, 0:17:59.727 --> 0:18:02.047 like I can't imagine what that must have been, like 0:18:02.087 --> 0:18:04.447 I would never try, But it was more that they 0:18:04.447 --> 0:18:06.007 blamed themselves at the end. 0:18:06.607 --> 0:18:10.807 We like al McPherson, are not medical doctor here, so 0:18:11.207 --> 0:18:13.727 in talking about these topics, we always want to make 0:18:13.887 --> 0:18:16.087 clear that obviously we don't have expertise and that you 0:18:16.127 --> 0:18:21.807 should one hundred percent consult trained medical professionals about anything 0:18:21.887 --> 0:18:25.007 to do with your health in this way. And as 0:18:25.047 --> 0:18:28.087 Mia said at the beginning, just massive love to those 0:18:28.127 --> 0:18:31.167 who feel I'm going to use the word triggered by 0:18:31.607 --> 0:18:36.847 all the headlines around al McPherson's cancer journey in Inverted 0:18:36.887 --> 0:18:51.127 Commas this week, other the hell. 0:18:51.007 --> 0:18:56.887 Out narcissistic or a bloody good idea. I have a 0:18:56.967 --> 0:19:00.607 question about the best way to celebrate a milestone birthday 0:19:00.807 --> 0:19:03.367 when you turn twenty one or twenty five, or thirty 0:19:03.647 --> 0:19:07.327 or forty or fifty or sixty. You might remember Megan Markle. 0:19:07.567 --> 0:19:13.007 When she turned forty, she asked forty friends, activists, athletes, artists, 0:19:13.087 --> 0:19:14.327 and world leaders. 0:19:15.287 --> 0:19:19.207 Sorry her words, she sounds like your friend, kick off 0:19:19.247 --> 0:19:22.727 a global effort by contributing forty minutes of mentorship to 0:19:22.767 --> 0:19:26.767 support women re entering the work. Okay, this is hiring 0:19:26.807 --> 0:19:28.247 you sound sassy? 0:19:28.287 --> 0:19:30.967 You found judgement? Do you remember that? It was in lockdown? 0:19:31.167 --> 0:19:33.047 She was wearing Minolo's What did you do for your 0:19:33.047 --> 0:19:37.287 fortieth She said that I invited forty girlfriends. We had 0:19:37.287 --> 0:19:41.687 all to save the world. So that was very lofty 0:19:41.767 --> 0:19:45.327 what she asked everyone to do, which sounds like work, 0:19:45.407 --> 0:19:48.007 but was also quite confusing because it was called forty 0:19:48.087 --> 0:19:49.967 forty and it sounded a little bit like she was 0:19:50.007 --> 0:19:53.447 asking forty people to mentor forty women, but she wanted 0:19:53.447 --> 0:19:56.607 them to all give that mentorship. I actually was curious 0:19:56.647 --> 0:20:00.647 about how that went, so I went and followed a 0:20:00.727 --> 0:20:03.687 link back to the website I digressed genuous. 0:20:03.847 --> 0:20:07.367 I was interested to see the woman who does absolutely 0:20:07.447 --> 0:20:08.327 no research. 0:20:08.007 --> 0:20:11.887 And se for an Oh, it's a four oh four 0:20:12.407 --> 0:20:14.607 page not found on the arch webs. 0:20:14.687 --> 0:20:16.807 Not forty anymore. She did her thing, She moved on. 0:20:16.967 --> 0:20:20.927 Yeah, anyway. But another Meghan, Megan Vera. She's a San 0:20:20.927 --> 0:20:24.567 Francisco writer. She turned seventy in December last year, on 0:20:24.647 --> 0:20:27.607 Boxing Day, in fact, and she decided that she didn't 0:20:27.647 --> 0:20:29.767 want to throw a big party or go on holidays 0:20:29.767 --> 0:20:33.207 with her extended family. She didn't want fuss or the 0:20:33.247 --> 0:20:35.207 mental load of organizing a party and having a guest 0:20:35.207 --> 0:20:37.967 list and all of that. Also, because she is Jesse, 0:20:38.007 --> 0:20:40.287 you'll relate to this. She's born on Boxing Day, Holly, 0:20:40.367 --> 0:20:44.767 you two and December everyone's busy away, very hard to 0:20:44.847 --> 0:20:45.447 round people up. 0:20:45.487 --> 0:20:46.647 I'll celebrate your youth day. 0:20:46.727 --> 0:20:49.927 No, So she decided she wanted to share experiences with 0:20:50.007 --> 0:20:53.367 people who meant something to her. She said, I asked myself, 0:20:53.407 --> 0:20:55.567 what can I do to fill my memory bank? Swim 0:20:55.647 --> 0:20:59.727