1
00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047
Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,527
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

4
00:00:23,607 --> 00:00:26,247
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia. Out loud What women are actually talking about

5
00:00:26,287 --> 00:00:28,167
Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the fourth of September.

6
00:00:28,287 --> 00:00:30,007
Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm.

7
00:00:29,807 --> 00:00:32,767
Speaker 1: Me Friedman, and we've already done a segment where we've

8
00:00:32,767 --> 00:00:36,087
Speaker 1: had an argument just while we were setting up the microphones.

9
00:00:36,527 --> 00:00:38,767
Speaker 3: That's very standard for this kind of day.

10
00:00:38,927 --> 00:00:40,887
Speaker 4: And I'm Jesse Stevens and on.

11
00:00:40,767 --> 00:00:44,247
Speaker 2: The show today, why El McPherson is being branded as

12
00:00:44,367 --> 00:00:45,927
Speaker 2: dangerously irresponsible?

13
00:00:46,527 --> 00:00:48,127
Speaker 3: Also, people asking you.

14
00:00:48,087 --> 00:00:50,047
Speaker 2: What you want for your next big birthday, We've got

15
00:00:50,047 --> 00:00:53,847
Speaker 2: an idea that's either genius or absolute torture. And finally,

16
00:00:53,967 --> 00:00:57,007
Speaker 2: pop music is all about women inside the genius selling

17
00:00:57,087 --> 00:00:58,887
Speaker 2: of Sabrina, Charlie and Chapel.

18
00:00:59,287 --> 00:01:00,327
Speaker 3: But first Jesse.

19
00:01:00,727 --> 00:01:03,967
Speaker 4: This week, much of Israel's economy was shut down due

20
00:01:04,007 --> 00:01:07,287
Speaker 4: to a general strike where civilians put pressure on Prime

21
00:01:07,327 --> 00:01:11,047
Speaker 4: Minister Benjamin Netnyaho to agree to a seize fire deal

22
00:01:11,167 --> 00:01:14,567
Speaker 4: in Gaza. This is seen as the biggest push by

23
00:01:14,687 --> 00:01:18,927
Speaker 4: Israelis yet to force netna whose government to end this war.

24
00:01:19,647 --> 00:01:23,847
Speaker 4: These strikes come after the bodies of six Israeli hostages

25
00:01:23,927 --> 00:01:27,007
Speaker 4: were found in a tunnel in the Gaza Strip. They

26
00:01:27,087 --> 00:01:31,247
Speaker 4: had been shot at close range. Ninety seven hostages remain

27
00:01:31,607 --> 00:01:35,167
Speaker 4: and Netnya, who is widely believed to be prolonging the

28
00:01:35,207 --> 00:01:37,927
Speaker 4: war rather than prioritizing their safe return.

29
00:01:38,167 --> 00:01:42,087
Speaker 1: This was so devastating because he the families of the

30
00:01:42,127 --> 00:01:46,527
Speaker 1: remaining hostages and the hostages who were killed came out

31
00:01:46,647 --> 00:01:49,247
Speaker 1: and people are very angry in Israel with Netna Who.

32
00:01:49,247 --> 00:01:51,647
Speaker 1: They want the war over. The whole world wants the

33
00:01:51,687 --> 00:01:54,487
Speaker 1: war over. They want the hostages returned, they want their

34
00:01:54,487 --> 00:01:57,007
Speaker 1: family back. I don't think there's anyone who wants to

35
00:01:57,047 --> 00:02:02,727
Speaker 1: prolong this war really, except for Netna Who and his supporters. Unfortunately,

36
00:02:02,767 --> 00:02:05,887
Speaker 1: this what started as a protest, they tried to turn

37
00:02:05,887 --> 00:02:08,607
Speaker 1: into a strike. He's still got the support of the

38
00:02:08,687 --> 00:02:11,727
Speaker 1: right and he just needs to go. It's almost a

39
00:02:11,807 --> 00:02:14,927
Speaker 1: year since this war started after the massacre on October seven,

40
00:02:15,647 --> 00:02:16,967
Speaker 1: and too many people have died.

41
00:02:17,327 --> 00:02:20,647
Speaker 4: So far, thirty three hostages have been declared dead by

42
00:02:20,727 --> 00:02:25,287
Speaker 4: Israeli authorities, with one hundred and seventy five killed on

43
00:02:25,327 --> 00:02:29,207
Speaker 4: October seven. That's based on social security data, and since

44
00:02:29,247 --> 00:02:31,727
Speaker 4: October seven, that is, as you say, eleven months ago.

45
00:02:31,767 --> 00:02:35,727
Speaker 4: Now more than forty thousand Palestinians have been killed, according

46
00:02:35,767 --> 00:02:39,287
Speaker 4: to local health authorities. Most of those are women and children.

47
00:02:39,927 --> 00:02:43,287
Speaker 4: The majority of Gaza's two point three million residents have

48
00:02:43,407 --> 00:02:46,807
Speaker 4: been forced to flee due to Israel's military assault and

49
00:02:46,887 --> 00:02:49,327
Speaker 4: due to those living conditions. There's news out just in

50
00:02:49,327 --> 00:02:52,367
Speaker 4: the last few days. We knew that disease was spreading,

51
00:02:52,567 --> 00:02:55,407
Speaker 4: but this now includes the first case of polio in

52
00:02:55,487 --> 00:02:57,167
Speaker 4: Gaza in twenty five years.

53
00:02:57,287 --> 00:03:00,367
Speaker 1: So now the world just paused to vaccinate two hundred

54
00:03:00,407 --> 00:03:04,167
Speaker 1: and seventy thousand children in Gaza against polio. It's a

55
00:03:04,247 --> 00:03:08,247
Speaker 1: humanitarian disaster. There are so many people suffering on both sides.

56
00:03:08,327 --> 00:03:10,207
Speaker 1: It just has to end and for more.

57
00:03:10,287 --> 00:03:13,007
Speaker 4: We are covering this news story on our twice daily

58
00:03:13,047 --> 00:03:15,607
Speaker 4: news podcast, The Quickie, as well as on Mamma Maya.

59
00:03:16,607 --> 00:03:21,287
Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen, Elle macpherson was diagnosed with breast cancer.

60
00:03:21,647 --> 00:03:24,127
Speaker 2: We know this because she writes two chapters about it

61
00:03:24,167 --> 00:03:26,367
Speaker 2: in her new book, which is called Elle and It's

62
00:03:26,487 --> 00:03:29,887
Speaker 2: part memoir, part self help. I've read it for reasons

63
00:03:29,887 --> 00:03:32,247
Speaker 2: we won't go into today. That was kept very quiet

64
00:03:32,287 --> 00:03:36,447
Speaker 2: at the time. Yes, it's very much seen as a revelation,

65
00:03:36,967 --> 00:03:40,207
Speaker 2: is the tabloid language we're using. At the time, she

66
00:03:40,247 --> 00:03:42,887
Speaker 2: was living in Miami, she was married to her second husband,

67
00:03:43,007 --> 00:03:45,847
Speaker 2: Jeff Sofer, and her two boys were in their teens.

68
00:03:46,527 --> 00:03:49,247
Speaker 2: Elle was already a big devotee at this point of

69
00:03:49,327 --> 00:03:52,087
Speaker 2: what we broadly call wellness, and she'd already started a

70
00:03:52,127 --> 00:03:56,647
Speaker 2: supplement business called Welco in twenty fourteen. Now, like many

71
00:03:56,727 --> 00:03:59,607
Speaker 2: many women before her and since, and women listening to

72
00:03:59,687 --> 00:04:03,727
Speaker 2: this show right now, she was initially completely flattened by

73
00:04:03,767 --> 00:04:06,367
Speaker 2: the news that the investigations into a lump in her

74
00:04:06,487 --> 00:04:10,527
Speaker 2: breast had found a cancerous tumor. The advice was that

75
00:04:10,567 --> 00:04:15,247
Speaker 2: she should have a mystectomy with radiation, chemotherapy, and hormone therapy.

76
00:04:15,927 --> 00:04:18,167
Speaker 2: She writes that her initial doctor told her this would

77
00:04:18,207 --> 00:04:20,607
Speaker 2: be a two year process, and she writes that she

78
00:04:20,807 --> 00:04:26,407
Speaker 2: was understandably flooded with panic, fear, and confusion. The reason

79
00:04:26,447 --> 00:04:29,487
Speaker 2: that you're seeing headlines about what el macpherson did next

80
00:04:29,647 --> 00:04:32,887
Speaker 2: everywhere this week is because it's not what most women

81
00:04:33,007 --> 00:04:36,167
Speaker 2: do in this situation, as she details in the book,

82
00:04:36,207 --> 00:04:39,247
Speaker 2: as we've said for the first time, Instead, she went

83
00:04:39,287 --> 00:04:42,567
Speaker 2: into an intense research state she got opinions from more

84
00:04:42,607 --> 00:04:46,287
Speaker 2: than thirty two different doctors on what they thought her

85
00:04:46,287 --> 00:04:49,167
Speaker 2: treatment options were. Speaking to other people in her life too,

86
00:04:49,167 --> 00:04:52,527
Speaker 2: her kids, their father, her husband, a friends, and ultimately,

87
00:04:52,727 --> 00:04:55,727
Speaker 2: she writes, she decided to go a different route. I

88
00:04:55,807 --> 00:04:59,607
Speaker 2: didn't believe she writes that drugs and modern pharmaceuticals were

89
00:04:59,687 --> 00:05:03,047
Speaker 2: the only answer. I chose a holistic approach. It was

90
00:05:03,087 --> 00:05:06,527
Speaker 2: the hardest decision I have ever made in my life.

91
00:05:06,607 --> 00:05:09,487
Speaker 2: She went to a natural therapy's clinic in Arizona, where

92
00:05:09,487 --> 00:05:13,287
Speaker 2: she underwent eight months of intense natural and putting that

93
00:05:13,327 --> 00:05:16,327
Speaker 2: in kind of inverted commas therapies which are way too

94
00:05:16,367 --> 00:05:17,847
Speaker 2: long to list here. She goes into a lot of

95
00:05:17,887 --> 00:05:20,127
Speaker 2: detail about it in the book, but included everything from

96
00:05:20,167 --> 00:05:26,527
Speaker 2: prayer to IV infusions and herbal therapies. Unsurprisingly, this chapter,

97
00:05:26,807 --> 00:05:29,687
Speaker 2: these two chapters actually of McPherson's book, have drawn a

98
00:05:29,807 --> 00:05:32,287
Speaker 2: lot of attention, and lots of people this week are

99
00:05:32,327 --> 00:05:36,567
Speaker 2: branding it's shockingly irresponsible to suggest to people that they

100
00:05:36,647 --> 00:05:40,887
Speaker 2: too should refuse traditional treatments, or that there is implicit

101
00:05:40,927 --> 00:05:44,567
Speaker 2: in publishing this approach a level of judgment about the

102
00:05:44,647 --> 00:05:48,607
Speaker 2: right and wrong ways to approach health and healing Mia.

103
00:05:49,567 --> 00:05:52,647
Speaker 2: This feels like it's thrown a conversation back into the

104
00:05:52,647 --> 00:05:54,927
Speaker 2: headlines that had kind of died down for a while

105
00:05:54,967 --> 00:05:58,607
Speaker 2: there from that sort of peak Bell Gibson Pete Evans

106
00:05:58,647 --> 00:06:03,127
Speaker 2: moment where all this sort of so called natural therapies

107
00:06:03,167 --> 00:06:08,007
Speaker 2: were everywhere and being widely disproven. Often is it dangerous

108
00:06:08,247 --> 00:06:11,927
Speaker 2: for a woman to seemingly just tell the truth about

109
00:06:11,967 --> 00:06:13,607
Speaker 2: what she did in this situation.

110
00:06:14,487 --> 00:06:17,007
Speaker 1: I'm really torn about this, and I wanted to start

111
00:06:17,047 --> 00:06:20,567
Speaker 1: off by saying, we are sending our love to everybody

112
00:06:20,727 --> 00:06:24,767
Speaker 1: who is feeling really upset by this story, either because

113
00:06:25,247 --> 00:06:29,887
Speaker 1: they have cancer, someone they love has cancer, someone they

114
00:06:29,967 --> 00:06:34,247
Speaker 1: love has been lost to cancer, because whether she meant

115
00:06:34,247 --> 00:06:38,767
Speaker 1: to or not, the implication is that if people just

116
00:06:38,847 --> 00:06:42,007
Speaker 1: did the right thing, I mean, everyone does what they

117
00:06:42,047 --> 00:06:44,487
Speaker 1: think is the right thing. And I do believe I

118
00:06:44,487 --> 00:06:46,247
Speaker 1: will always give the benefit of the doubt that el

119
00:06:46,327 --> 00:06:49,167
Speaker 1: McPherson thought she's doing the right thing. And I think

120
00:06:49,207 --> 00:06:51,927
Speaker 1: we also should be clear, and she's clear in the

121
00:06:51,927 --> 00:06:55,327
Speaker 1: book she's not suggesting that other people do it, but

122
00:06:55,447 --> 00:06:59,887
Speaker 1: it's implied. You know, she sells a book, she sells

123
00:07:00,087 --> 00:07:02,927
Speaker 1: wellness products, and she also does not say that those

124
00:07:02,967 --> 00:07:04,727
Speaker 1: wellness products cut her cancer, so.

125
00:07:04,767 --> 00:07:07,487
Speaker 2: She doesn't, and in the interests of fairness, she makes

126
00:07:07,527 --> 00:07:09,727
Speaker 2: a big point in the book of like this was

127
00:07:09,847 --> 00:07:12,967
Speaker 2: right for me. I'm not saying it was right for you. Yeah,

128
00:07:13,047 --> 00:07:16,647
Speaker 2: but that's not how people feel, particularly when they're in

129
00:07:16,727 --> 00:07:18,967
Speaker 2: the heat of this experience.

130
00:07:19,447 --> 00:07:22,967
Speaker 1: I spoke to one of my closest friends who's a

131
00:07:23,007 --> 00:07:27,007
Speaker 1: breast physician and breast surgeon today and I sort of

132
00:07:27,047 --> 00:07:28,967
Speaker 1: sent her link to this article and I said, good

133
00:07:28,967 --> 00:07:31,367
Speaker 1: news for all your patients. They should just light a

134
00:07:31,407 --> 00:07:34,687
Speaker 1: candle and try some prayer and it wakes in Arizona.

135
00:07:34,847 --> 00:07:38,447
Speaker 1: And she just replied, this just makes me weep. It

136
00:07:38,527 --> 00:07:42,687
Speaker 1: makes me weep because there's never a more vulnerable time

137
00:07:42,727 --> 00:07:44,887
Speaker 1: in your life than when you are diagnosed with cancer,

138
00:07:45,287 --> 00:07:48,247
Speaker 1: or it's one of the most vulnerable times, and it

139
00:07:48,287 --> 00:07:52,007
Speaker 1: can be really, really confusing. And I do support anyone's

140
00:07:52,087 --> 00:07:54,527
Speaker 1: right to have bodily autonomy and decide what they do

141
00:07:54,567 --> 00:07:57,167
Speaker 1: and don't want to do. And it's not like we

142
00:07:57,247 --> 00:08:00,807
Speaker 1: can say she shouldn't be allowed to talk about it,

143
00:08:00,927 --> 00:08:05,447
Speaker 1: or we shouldn't publish her book because she's talked about

144
00:08:05,447 --> 00:08:09,607
Speaker 1: something that we feel is irresponsible, because everybody can do

145
00:08:09,647 --> 00:08:10,087
Speaker 1: what they want.

146
00:08:10,127 --> 00:08:12,047
Speaker 2: She's an adult if we don't think she should have

147
00:08:12,087 --> 00:08:14,087
Speaker 2: included that story in her book. But we're saying we

148
00:08:14,087 --> 00:08:17,087
Speaker 2: don't want to censor anyone. What was she supposed to

149
00:08:17,127 --> 00:08:19,687
Speaker 2: do with that story, not necessarily el McPherson herself. But

150
00:08:19,767 --> 00:08:22,367
Speaker 2: this is a big community, this wellness community, that has

151
00:08:22,407 --> 00:08:24,407
Speaker 2: all kinds of different stories within it. Are we saying

152
00:08:24,407 --> 00:08:26,767
Speaker 2: we don't want to hear it? It's irresponsible to even

153
00:08:26,887 --> 00:08:28,847
Speaker 2: speak the words, what do you think?

154
00:08:29,287 --> 00:08:31,087
Speaker 1: It's really hard, isn't it? Because that is part of

155
00:08:31,087 --> 00:08:35,287
Speaker 1: her story, and it's obviously been a life changing event

156
00:08:35,447 --> 00:08:39,967
Speaker 1: for her. And if she truly does believe, which benefit

157
00:08:39,967 --> 00:08:42,487
Speaker 1: of the doubt, she does, that this course of treatment

158
00:08:42,807 --> 00:08:46,007
Speaker 1: was helpful to her, she would want to share that

159
00:08:46,047 --> 00:08:48,167
Speaker 1: information with other people.

160
00:08:48,847 --> 00:08:51,487
Speaker 2: It would seem there are a million podcasts out there,

161
00:08:51,527 --> 00:08:53,527
Speaker 2: there are a million sites and chat rooms and all

162
00:08:53,567 --> 00:08:57,647
Speaker 2: those things where this kind of therapy has discussed a lot, right,

163
00:08:58,167 --> 00:09:00,407
Speaker 2: And one of the things that's interesting about the way

164
00:09:00,447 --> 00:09:02,207
Speaker 2: we react when it comes into the light is do

165
00:09:02,247 --> 00:09:04,647
Speaker 2: we just push it further underground, which might be good

166
00:09:04,687 --> 00:09:07,727
Speaker 2: in some ways but bad in others, because if you

167
00:09:07,767 --> 00:09:10,327
Speaker 2: shine light on it, bring it into the mainstream, it

168
00:09:10,327 --> 00:09:11,967
Speaker 2: can be more of an open discussion, whereas if you

169
00:09:12,087 --> 00:09:14,687
Speaker 2: every time anyone says anything about it, you tell them

170
00:09:14,687 --> 00:09:17,207
Speaker 2: to shut up. They're just going off into corners of

171
00:09:17,247 --> 00:09:19,127
Speaker 2: the internet where they're like self.

172
00:09:19,087 --> 00:09:22,887
Speaker 4: Almost radicalizing it. Yeah yeah, yeah, But we talk on

173
00:09:22,967 --> 00:09:25,127
Speaker 4: podcasts and write books and all of those things, and

174
00:09:25,687 --> 00:09:27,407
Speaker 4: you tell stories about your own life. And often I

175
00:09:27,447 --> 00:09:29,527
Speaker 4: go to tell a story. This has happened multiple times,

176
00:09:29,567 --> 00:09:32,567
Speaker 4: and I have stopped myself and gone, it's actually, isn't helpful.

177
00:09:32,807 --> 00:09:34,687
Speaker 4: It's gonna make someone feel like shit, Yeah, this is

178
00:09:34,727 --> 00:09:37,407
Speaker 4: gonna and it's true, and it speaks to a truth

179
00:09:37,407 --> 00:09:40,207
Speaker 4: that might make someone feel seen or whatever. But this

180
00:09:40,247 --> 00:09:43,687
Speaker 4: isn't a private journal. This was a memoir, a book

181
00:09:43,687 --> 00:09:45,047
Speaker 4: that was going to be published and read by a

182
00:09:45,127 --> 00:09:47,567
Speaker 4: lot of people. And you know, she's talked about the

183
00:09:47,607 --> 00:09:50,447
Speaker 4: cancer thing in the Australian Women's Weekly exclusive that was

184
00:09:50,487 --> 00:09:53,287
Speaker 4: part of the promotion of it. I think you make

185
00:09:53,327 --> 00:09:55,527
Speaker 4: a choice there, because a memoir isn't for l A

186
00:09:55,567 --> 00:09:56,767
Speaker 4: memoir is for your audience.

187
00:09:57,127 --> 00:10:00,327
Speaker 1: But let's be clear, it's all about wellness and all

188
00:10:00,367 --> 00:10:05,807
Speaker 1: these supplements. While she looks not sixty but incredibly hot

189
00:10:06,327 --> 00:10:08,727
Speaker 1: and incredibly not like anyone else, I mean, she's on

190
00:10:08,767 --> 00:10:11,007
Speaker 1: with first, but then she's also elmcpherson with a lot

191
00:10:11,007 --> 00:10:13,287
Speaker 1: of work and a lot of self care with it,

192
00:10:13,327 --> 00:10:16,287
Speaker 1: As she said, because the inference when you've got someone

193
00:10:16,367 --> 00:10:20,967
Speaker 1: saying buy these products, and you market them with shots

194
00:10:20,967 --> 00:10:24,647
Speaker 1: of yourself in a bikini and looking a certain way,

195
00:10:25,287 --> 00:10:27,447
Speaker 1: the inference is that if you take these products, you

196
00:10:27,487 --> 00:10:28,247
Speaker 1: can look like me.

197
00:10:28,967 --> 00:10:31,247
Speaker 4: When I was reading these excerpts, I wondered if the

198
00:10:31,287 --> 00:10:34,887
Speaker 4: inference was if you take my products, or if you

199
00:10:35,007 --> 00:10:39,047
Speaker 4: live a life, a healthy life that is somewhat like me,

200
00:10:39,087 --> 00:10:42,327
Speaker 4: and you have a holistic approach to health, then perhaps

201
00:10:42,367 --> 00:10:44,327
Speaker 4: you too can cure your own cancer. She does not

202
00:10:44,407 --> 00:10:46,487
Speaker 4: say those words, but I am saying that that's I

203
00:10:46,487 --> 00:10:49,367
Speaker 4: think a feeling that people are getting. I reckon. It's

204
00:10:49,367 --> 00:10:51,287
Speaker 4: important to go back to some of the facts, right

205
00:10:51,327 --> 00:10:55,327
Speaker 4: because I saw a few medical doctors saying that the

206
00:10:55,407 --> 00:10:57,207
Speaker 4: bit that's being left out of a lot of this

207
00:10:57,327 --> 00:11:00,887
Speaker 4: reporting is that she discovered it was cancer following a

208
00:11:00,967 --> 00:11:04,407
Speaker 4: lump ectomy, which was removing the growth in twenty seventeen,

209
00:11:04,567 --> 00:11:07,207
Speaker 4: and a few doctors have said, yeah, you had a

210
00:11:07,287 --> 00:11:10,727
Speaker 4: lump removed. That lump may have been so lucky that

211
00:11:10,727 --> 00:11:12,807
Speaker 4: that lump had most of the cancer as cells in

212
00:11:12,847 --> 00:11:16,487
Speaker 4: it a mastectomy. The reason that that might be suggested

213
00:11:16,567 --> 00:11:19,127
Speaker 4: or given an option by a medical professional is that

214
00:11:19,167 --> 00:11:23,287
Speaker 4: it reduces your chances of getting breast cancer in the future,

215
00:11:23,327 --> 00:11:26,807
Speaker 4: because we know that it can come back. There are,

216
00:11:26,847 --> 00:11:32,007
Speaker 4: of course, a few lifestyle factors that would really work

217
00:11:32,047 --> 00:11:35,207
Speaker 4: in el McPherson's favor. Right, she's healthy, she exercises, she

218
00:11:35,247 --> 00:11:37,567
Speaker 4: eats well, blah blah blah, and those things a doctor

219
00:11:37,607 --> 00:11:40,247
Speaker 4: would say are great starters when it comes to health.

220
00:11:40,247 --> 00:11:43,407
Speaker 1: And the cans are rich, he is surely yeah, and

221
00:11:43,487 --> 00:11:44,407
Speaker 1: the access.

222
00:11:44,047 --> 00:11:47,847
Speaker 4: That she has to these the data suggests that there

223
00:11:47,847 --> 00:11:50,447
Speaker 4: are certain things about lifestyle choices that would contribute to

224
00:11:50,447 --> 00:11:54,367
Speaker 4: your risk of having cancer. However, I know people in

225
00:11:54,407 --> 00:11:58,807
Speaker 4: my life who were incredibly healthy, incredibly active, ate, really well,

226
00:11:58,847 --> 00:12:01,807
Speaker 4: all of those things, and they died of cancer. And

227
00:12:01,847 --> 00:12:04,847
Speaker 4: that's not because of choices that they made. That was

228
00:12:04,927 --> 00:12:08,567
Speaker 4: because I heard an expert say, everyone gets a different

229
00:12:08,647 --> 00:12:10,327
Speaker 4: kind of cancer. You might get a Mini Cooper and

230
00:12:10,367 --> 00:12:13,247
Speaker 4: you might get a truck. And maybe she had a

231
00:12:13,247 --> 00:12:16,727
Speaker 4: particular type and her story is not over, As every

232
00:12:16,807 --> 00:12:19,487
Speaker 4: cancer survivor will say, they don't feel like their story

233
00:12:19,647 --> 00:12:23,767
Speaker 4: is over. I just wish that she didn't print this

234
00:12:24,367 --> 00:12:28,727
Speaker 4: in a book that does overlap, and in the press

235
00:12:28,767 --> 00:12:30,927
Speaker 4: she does, and in the marketing she does, she does

236
00:12:31,007 --> 00:12:34,327
Speaker 4: talk about this supplement company. The people that she works

237
00:12:34,367 --> 00:12:38,847
Speaker 4: with have really questionable relationships with health. Obviously, she dated

238
00:12:38,887 --> 00:12:41,927
Speaker 4: Andrew Wakefield for a period, who was the doctor who

239
00:12:42,127 --> 00:12:46,447
Speaker 4: published a fraudulent paper about the relationship between vaccines and autism.

240
00:12:46,647 --> 00:12:49,207
Speaker 4: Many people who she works with and who helped formulate

241
00:12:49,207 --> 00:12:52,287
Speaker 4: the supplements claim to have cured their own cancer with

242
00:12:52,687 --> 00:12:57,527
Speaker 4: like a detox or a particular health regime, And I'm

243
00:12:57,567 --> 00:13:00,247
Speaker 4: going to trust the studies that that's not what works

244
00:13:00,247 --> 00:13:00,927
Speaker 4: for most people.

245
00:13:01,047 --> 00:13:04,007
Speaker 2: The thing that's really hard whenever this topic is brought

246
00:13:04,087 --> 00:13:08,327
Speaker 2: up is that for most people that I know who

247
00:13:08,407 --> 00:13:11,767
Speaker 2: find themselves in this situation, they actually do a lot

248
00:13:11,767 --> 00:13:15,487
Speaker 2: of things. They will follow their doctor's advice. And the

249
00:13:15,527 --> 00:13:18,127
Speaker 2: point about privilege is absolutely spot on. If I was

250
00:13:18,927 --> 00:13:22,687
Speaker 2: diagnosed tomorrow, I would not have the access to thirty

251
00:13:22,727 --> 00:13:25,207
Speaker 2: two different medical professionals. You go and see somebody, you

252
00:13:25,247 --> 00:13:27,727
Speaker 2: do what they tell you. You trust in the doctor, but

253
00:13:27,847 --> 00:13:30,647
Speaker 2: they also most people I know do try out some

254
00:13:30,727 --> 00:13:33,687
Speaker 2: alternative therapies, will do different things to their diets, will

255
00:13:33,687 --> 00:13:36,487
Speaker 2: try different supplements. We'll do it like people are open

256
00:13:36,567 --> 00:13:36,847
Speaker 2: to this.

257
00:13:36,967 --> 00:13:39,287
Speaker 1: It's not lights are open to that too, of course

258
00:13:39,287 --> 00:13:39,527
Speaker 1: they are.

259
00:13:39,607 --> 00:13:43,127
Speaker 2: It's not like there's a because we've talked about this

260
00:13:43,167 --> 00:13:45,527
Speaker 2: on the show before that sometimes I get uncomfortable when

261
00:13:45,567 --> 00:13:49,087
Speaker 2: we're very dismissive of wellness because for a lot of women,

262
00:13:49,167 --> 00:13:51,647
Speaker 2: in a lot of different health circumstances, they have not

263
00:13:51,887 --> 00:13:55,967
Speaker 2: found that's so called traditional and inverted commerce. Medicine has

264
00:13:56,007 --> 00:13:59,887
Speaker 2: necessarily understood their problems, has necessarily solved their problems, has

265
00:13:59,927 --> 00:14:04,047
Speaker 2: taken them seriously. Cancer is in a different bucket, and

266
00:14:04,087 --> 00:14:08,087
Speaker 2: as Jesse has already expressed brilliantly with that analogy, cancer

267
00:14:08,167 --> 00:14:09,167
Speaker 2: is so different for.

268
00:14:09,327 --> 00:14:11,247
Speaker 4: Everybody who gets it.

269
00:14:11,247 --> 00:14:12,967
Speaker 2: It's not the same as some of those things that

270
00:14:13,447 --> 00:14:17,847
Speaker 2: women are rightly questioning the advice they're given and pursuing things.

271
00:14:17,847 --> 00:14:23,287
Speaker 2: So I'll always celebrate our permission, right yeah, to explore

272
00:14:23,287 --> 00:14:24,967
Speaker 2: different things that work for us and make changes to

273
00:14:24,967 --> 00:14:26,527
Speaker 2: our life. And sometimes they're going to seem a bit

274
00:14:26,567 --> 00:14:28,407
Speaker 2: weird to other people and they're not going to understand them.

275
00:14:28,767 --> 00:14:30,967
Speaker 2: The problem with this, and this is what someone I

276
00:14:31,007 --> 00:14:33,447
Speaker 2: know who's going through this said, is that by putting

277
00:14:33,447 --> 00:14:36,207
Speaker 2: this out there in this aspirational way, because as you're

278
00:14:36,247 --> 00:14:38,327
Speaker 2: saying me or I think your point is, is the

279
00:14:38,367 --> 00:14:42,167
Speaker 2: brand here is very aspirational. Is that she and this

280
00:14:42,207 --> 00:14:44,167
Speaker 2: is what my friend said to me, that it feels

281
00:14:44,207 --> 00:14:46,527
Speaker 2: like she's judging all the fools who just follow the

282
00:14:46,567 --> 00:14:49,967
Speaker 2: doctor's advice. And the thing is is, even though I'm

283
00:14:50,007 --> 00:14:52,527
Speaker 2: sure that's not what she's doing, this is one of

284
00:14:52,567 --> 00:14:55,287
Speaker 2: those moments. It's not like early motherhood, but it is

285
00:14:55,327 --> 00:15:00,007
Speaker 2: in a way in that you are in such a vulnerable, confused,

286
00:15:00,687 --> 00:15:04,087
Speaker 2: difficult position where the stakes are enormously high, and all

287
00:15:04,127 --> 00:15:06,487
Speaker 2: this different information is coming at you, and you've made

288
00:15:06,487 --> 00:15:10,047
Speaker 2: your choice based on what trained profess are telling you

289
00:15:10,087 --> 00:15:13,487
Speaker 2: to do, and then you're being sort of encouraged to

290
00:15:13,487 --> 00:15:15,287
Speaker 2: think that maybe you took the easy.

291
00:15:15,007 --> 00:15:15,807
Speaker 3: Way or something.

292
00:15:15,927 --> 00:15:18,487
Speaker 1: The arrogance of it is always breathtaking to me. This

293
00:15:18,567 --> 00:15:22,007
Speaker 1: idea of thirty two doctors told her to do something

294
00:15:22,047 --> 00:15:23,807
Speaker 1: and she decided to do something else.

295
00:15:24,287 --> 00:15:26,887
Speaker 3: I would never do that. I am such a rule.

296
00:15:27,527 --> 00:15:29,967
Speaker 2: But also I'm so if the doctor tells me to

297
00:15:29,967 --> 00:15:32,967
Speaker 2: do something, I'm like, yep, okay, Like I am so.

298
00:15:33,167 --> 00:15:37,127
Speaker 4: In saying that, I know people who, for very valid

299
00:15:37,167 --> 00:15:40,967
Speaker 4: and understandable reasons, said no to chemo. Chemo is not

300
00:15:41,327 --> 00:15:44,007
Speaker 4: the easy way out. Chemo in itself is a risk,

301
00:15:44,087 --> 00:15:46,287
Speaker 4: surgery is a risk, a mastectomy is a risk, all

302
00:15:46,327 --> 00:15:49,047
Speaker 4: of those things, and every woman has every right to

303
00:15:49,527 --> 00:15:53,327
Speaker 4: choose not to do those things. I find it interesting

304
00:15:53,367 --> 00:15:56,047
Speaker 4: how the term holistic has been weaponized as well, because,

305
00:15:56,047 --> 00:15:59,807
Speaker 4: as you say, Holly, if you do get a mastectomy

306
00:16:00,047 --> 00:16:02,887
Speaker 4: or chemotherapy and maybe you take a supplement and you

307
00:16:02,967 --> 00:16:05,927
Speaker 4: do yoga and you meditate and you do acupuncture, that's

308
00:16:05,927 --> 00:16:06,887
Speaker 4: pretty holistic to me.

309
00:16:06,967 --> 00:16:09,207
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, and it is what a lot of women do.

310
00:16:09,647 --> 00:16:12,567
Speaker 4: Yes, And I was reading that even if you're taking

311
00:16:12,607 --> 00:16:15,287
Speaker 4: a supplement or whatever, as long as you're transparent with

312
00:16:15,287 --> 00:16:18,007
Speaker 4: your doctor, because sometimes it can intersect with other medicine things.

313
00:16:18,007 --> 00:16:20,887
Speaker 4: So a big problem is people feeling a bit ashamed

314
00:16:20,927 --> 00:16:22,927
Speaker 4: that they can't say to their doctor, I'm trying something

315
00:16:22,967 --> 00:16:25,967
Speaker 4: that's a little bit left of center. I mean, people

316
00:16:26,007 --> 00:16:27,647
Speaker 4: have been dealing with their health in lots of different

317
00:16:27,647 --> 00:16:30,447
Speaker 4: ways for a lot of different years, and cancer is

318
00:16:30,487 --> 00:16:33,887
Speaker 4: what it does to people's mental health is horrific. But

319
00:16:33,967 --> 00:16:36,847
Speaker 4: there is just something in the tone and in the

320
00:16:36,887 --> 00:16:39,927
Speaker 4: way that this has been presented. And I've heard her

321
00:16:39,967 --> 00:16:43,207
Speaker 4: said in the same kind of breath, you know. I

322
00:16:43,287 --> 00:16:45,447
Speaker 4: just want women to make a choice for themselves and

323
00:16:45,487 --> 00:16:48,887
Speaker 4: all of that rhetoric. That's like, it's a hard enough

324
00:16:48,927 --> 00:16:53,047
Speaker 4: decision already without feeling like someone's telling you made them.

325
00:16:53,167 --> 00:16:56,447
Speaker 1: I just think a supermodel's view is irrelevant. It's not

326
00:16:56,487 --> 00:16:59,567
Speaker 1: like I'm saying we should burn her book or ban

327
00:16:59,767 --> 00:17:02,687
Speaker 1: her from being interviewed or censor what she says. I

328
00:17:02,767 --> 00:17:06,367
Speaker 1: just find it incredibly unethical, not the speaking, but also

329
00:17:06,407 --> 00:17:07,527
Speaker 1: the selling the products.

330
00:17:08,047 --> 00:17:12,567
Speaker 4: Steve Jobs very famously declined traditional treatment for pancreatic cancer,

331
00:17:12,607 --> 00:17:14,927
Speaker 4: and he did the dietary supplements and acupuncture and stuff,

332
00:17:15,167 --> 00:17:18,687
Speaker 4: and his biographer said he deeply, deeply regretted it towards

333
00:17:18,807 --> 00:17:20,887
Speaker 4: the end of his life. So that's another part of

334
00:17:20,927 --> 00:17:21,367
Speaker 4: the story.

335
00:17:21,447 --> 00:17:24,247
Speaker 1: There was a young woman who I knew from my

336
00:17:24,287 --> 00:17:27,247
Speaker 1: time in magazine. She was diagnosed with cancer, very curable

337
00:17:27,287 --> 00:17:32,727
Speaker 1: cancer early, and she was advised on a certain course

338
00:17:32,727 --> 00:17:37,287
Speaker 1: of medical treatment, which she decided not to pursue. And

339
00:17:37,287 --> 00:17:39,207
Speaker 1: then her mum was diagnosed with cancer. Her mom did

340
00:17:39,247 --> 00:17:41,967
Speaker 1: the same thing and they both died, and she also said,

341
00:17:42,047 --> 00:17:44,607
Speaker 1: towards the end, I really regret it, and my lives

342
00:17:44,607 --> 00:17:46,047
Speaker 1: could have very likely been saved.

343
00:17:46,167 --> 00:17:49,887
Speaker 2: I struggle with all of these conversations because it feels

344
00:17:49,967 --> 00:17:51,447
Speaker 2: like that's also blame, you.

345
00:17:51,407 --> 00:17:53,887
Speaker 3: Know what I mean. It feels like that's also blame.

346
00:17:53,927 --> 00:17:57,167
Speaker 2: It's saying that was an irresponsible choice, you shouldn't have

347
00:17:57,167 --> 00:17:57,447
Speaker 2: done that.

348
00:17:57,487 --> 00:17:59,687
Speaker 1: And I do think think it's more they blamed themselves,

349
00:17:59,727 --> 00:18:02,047
Speaker 1: like I can't imagine what that must have been, like

350
00:18:02,087 --> 00:18:04,447
Speaker 1: I would never try, But it was more that they

351
00:18:04,447 --> 00:18:06,007
Speaker 1: blamed themselves at the end.

352
00:18:06,607 --> 00:18:10,807
Speaker 2: We like al McPherson, are not medical doctor here, so

353
00:18:11,207 --> 00:18:13,727
Speaker 2: in talking about these topics, we always want to make

354
00:18:13,887 --> 00:18:16,087
Speaker 2: clear that obviously we don't have expertise and that you

355
00:18:16,127 --> 00:18:21,807
Speaker 2: should one hundred percent consult trained medical professionals about anything

356
00:18:21,887 --> 00:18:25,007
Speaker 2: to do with your health in this way. And as

357
00:18:25,047 --> 00:18:28,087
Speaker 2: Mia said at the beginning, just massive love to those

358
00:18:28,127 --> 00:18:31,167
Speaker 2: who feel I'm going to use the word triggered by

359
00:18:31,607 --> 00:18:36,847
Speaker 2: all the headlines around al McPherson's cancer journey in Inverted

360
00:18:36,887 --> 00:18:51,127
Speaker 2: Commas this week, other the hell.

361
00:18:51,007 --> 00:18:56,887
Speaker 1: Out narcissistic or a bloody good idea. I have a

362
00:18:56,967 --> 00:19:00,607
Speaker 1: question about the best way to celebrate a milestone birthday

363
00:19:00,807 --> 00:19:03,367
Speaker 1: when you turn twenty one or twenty five, or thirty

364
00:19:03,647 --> 00:19:07,327
Speaker 1: or forty or fifty or sixty. You might remember Megan Markle.

365
00:19:07,567 --> 00:19:13,007
Speaker 1: When she turned forty, she asked forty friends, activists, athletes, artists,

366
00:19:13,087 --> 00:19:14,327
Speaker 1: and world leaders.

367
00:19:15,287 --> 00:19:19,207
Speaker 4: Sorry her words, she sounds like your friend, kick off

368
00:19:19,247 --> 00:19:22,727
Speaker 4: a global effort by contributing forty minutes of mentorship to

369
00:19:22,767 --> 00:19:26,767
Speaker 4: support women re entering the work. Okay, this is hiring

370
00:19:26,807 --> 00:19:28,247
Speaker 4: you sound sassy?

371
00:19:28,287 --> 00:19:30,967
Speaker 1: You found judgement? Do you remember that? It was in lockdown?

372
00:19:31,167 --> 00:19:33,047
Speaker 1: She was wearing Minolo's What did you do for your

373
00:19:33,047 --> 00:19:37,287
Speaker 1: fortieth She said that I invited forty girlfriends. We had

374
00:19:37,287 --> 00:19:41,687
Speaker 1: all to save the world. So that was very lofty

375
00:19:41,767 --> 00:19:45,327
Speaker 1: what she asked everyone to do, which sounds like work,

376
00:19:45,407 --> 00:19:48,007
Speaker 1: but was also quite confusing because it was called forty

377
00:19:48,087 --> 00:19:49,967
Speaker 1: forty and it sounded a little bit like she was

378
00:19:50,007 --> 00:19:53,447
Speaker 1: asking forty people to mentor forty women, but she wanted

379
00:19:53,447 --> 00:19:56,607
Speaker 1: them to all give that mentorship. I actually was curious

380
00:19:56,647 --> 00:20:00,647
Speaker 1: about how that went, so I went and followed a

381
00:20:00,727 --> 00:20:03,687
Speaker 1: link back to the website I digressed genuous.

382
00:20:03,847 --> 00:20:07,367
Speaker 4: I was interested to see the woman who does absolutely

383
00:20:07,447 --> 00:20:08,327
Speaker 4: no research.

384
00:20:08,007 --> 00:20:11,887
Speaker 1: And se for an Oh, it's a four oh four

385
00:20:12,407 --> 00:20:14,607
Speaker 1: page not found on the arch webs.

386
00:20:14,687 --> 00:20:16,807
Speaker 4: Not forty anymore. She did her thing, She moved on.

387
00:20:16,967 --> 00:20:20,927
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway. But another Meghan, Megan Vera. She's a San

388
00:20:20,927 --> 00:20:24,567
Speaker 1: Francisco writer. She turned seventy in December last year, on

389
00:20:24,647 --> 00:20:27,607
Speaker 1: Boxing Day, in fact, and she decided that she didn't

390
00:20:27,647 --> 00:20:29,767
Speaker 1: want to throw a big party or go on holidays

391
00:20:29,767 --> 00:20:33,207
Speaker 1: with her extended family. She didn't want fuss or the

392
00:20:33,247 --> 00:20:35,207
Speaker 1: mental load of organizing a party and having a guest

393
00:20:35,207 --> 00:20:37,967
Speaker 1: list and all of that. Also, because she is Jesse,

394
00:20:38,007 --> 00:20:40,287
Speaker 1: you'll relate to this. She's born on Boxing Day, Holly,

395
00:20:40,367 --> 00:20:44,767
Speaker 1: you two and December everyone's busy away, very hard to

396
00:20:44,847 --> 00:20:45,447
Speaker 1: round people up.

397
00:20:45,487 --> 00:20:46,647
Speaker 3: I'll celebrate your youth day.

398
00:20:46,727 --> 00:20:49,927
Speaker 1: No, So she decided she wanted to share experiences with

399
00:20:50,007 --> 00:20:53,367
Speaker 1: people who meant something to her. She said, I asked myself,

400
00:20:53,407 --> 00:20:55,567
Speaker 1: what can I do to fill my memory bank? Swim

401
00:20:55,647 --> 00:20:59,727
Speaker 1: seventy laps, make seventy charity donations, string a necklace with

402
00:20:59,847 --> 00:21:03,127
Speaker 1: seventy heirloom beads. More than anything, I wanted to spend

403
00:21:03,207 --> 00:21:05,767
Speaker 1: cherished time with loved ones. So she made a list

404
00:21:06,087 --> 00:21:10,087
Speaker 1: of seventy people and she wrote them all email and

405
00:21:10,127 --> 00:21:12,927
Speaker 1: it said, dear person, I love having just rolled past

406
00:21:12,967 --> 00:21:15,367
Speaker 1: sixty nine. I'm thinking about the large number looming on

407
00:21:15,407 --> 00:21:18,407
Speaker 1: the horizon. To honor that large number. I want to

408
00:21:18,447 --> 00:21:22,007
Speaker 1: log in seventy experiences in twenty twenty three with people

409
00:21:22,047 --> 00:21:24,407
Speaker 1: I love. My goal is to say yes to whatever

410
00:21:24,447 --> 00:21:27,287
Speaker 1: you might propose, no matter how big or small. Anything

411
00:21:27,287 --> 00:21:29,247
Speaker 1: from a cup of coffee to a trip to a

412
00:21:29,327 --> 00:21:31,407
Speaker 1: national park, from a walk in the woods to a

413
00:21:31,447 --> 00:21:34,967
Speaker 1: Broadway show, from a manicure to a dance party. But please,

414
00:21:35,167 --> 00:21:38,767
Speaker 1: no thrill seeking, no rollercoasters or bungee jumping, and nothing

415
00:21:38,767 --> 00:21:41,407
Speaker 1: that involves a shark tank. I look forward to saying

416
00:21:41,447 --> 00:21:43,727
Speaker 1: yes to your proposal, to a calendar full of one

417
00:21:43,767 --> 00:21:46,567
Speaker 1: of her kind events, and to fully enjoying memorable moments

418
00:21:46,567 --> 00:21:48,567
Speaker 1: with you with love. Megan.

419
00:21:48,767 --> 00:21:51,087
Speaker 2: Wow, Megan, that's amazing.

420
00:21:51,127 --> 00:21:51,487
Speaker 4: I love it.

421
00:21:51,567 --> 00:21:51,767
Speaker 5: Yeah.

422
00:21:51,807 --> 00:21:56,447
Speaker 1: It was around six experiences a month exhaust and she hiked, kayaked, picnicked,

423
00:21:56,527 --> 00:21:58,887
Speaker 1: rode the ferry and train, drank steaming cups of coffee

424
00:21:58,887 --> 00:22:02,367
Speaker 1: and chai, dined out, listen to live music, visited museums.

425
00:22:02,367 --> 00:22:05,047
Speaker 1: She did all kinds of things. Jesse, what are we

426
00:22:05,087 --> 00:22:07,087
Speaker 1: doing for your fortieth Do you want to spend more

427
00:22:07,087 --> 00:22:09,087
Speaker 1: time with me having a special experience?

428
00:22:09,407 --> 00:22:12,487
Speaker 4: No, no, no, I was thinking about this because I

429
00:22:12,607 --> 00:22:15,327
Speaker 4: was very inspired. But my next birthday is thirty four,

430
00:22:15,367 --> 00:22:19,247
Speaker 4: which is one of the most nothing birthdays one can have.

431
00:22:19,407 --> 00:22:23,247
Speaker 4: It is edging very so slightly to one's mid thirties,

432
00:22:23,367 --> 00:22:27,287
Speaker 4: which again not exciting. But I was thinking about how

433
00:22:27,487 --> 00:22:30,567
Speaker 4: I often cry on my birthday or just feel quite

434
00:22:30,687 --> 00:22:34,447
Speaker 4: let down by the experience. I never have a birthday party,

435
00:22:34,527 --> 00:22:37,887
Speaker 4: but if I organize something because you're a twin, yeah,

436
00:22:37,927 --> 00:22:39,887
Speaker 4: but it's also because of the time of year. The

437
00:22:39,927 --> 00:22:41,767
Speaker 4: thing about a birthday party is that you invite all

438
00:22:41,767 --> 00:22:43,687
Speaker 4: these people you want to talk to, you don't get

439
00:22:43,687 --> 00:22:46,327
Speaker 4: an opportunity to speak to any of them. Really, You've

440
00:22:46,367 --> 00:22:48,927
Speaker 4: just put on something for others to enjoy, and then

441
00:22:48,967 --> 00:22:51,007
Speaker 4: you walk away being like, oh now it's over, and

442
00:22:51,087 --> 00:22:54,367
Speaker 4: I didn't even enjoy it. That's what I love about this,

443
00:22:54,567 --> 00:22:58,327
Speaker 4: and in fact, what you want individual experiences with the

444
00:22:58,367 --> 00:23:01,967
Speaker 4: people you love. I wondered if for my fortieth I

445
00:23:02,087 --> 00:23:06,407
Speaker 4: might adjust it slightly and have a gift registry of experiences.

446
00:23:07,207 --> 00:23:11,127
Speaker 4: So my worry is you guys, choosing the experiences you

447
00:23:11,167 --> 00:23:14,087
Speaker 4: want to do with me. There's an issue that the

448
00:23:14,127 --> 00:23:17,207
Speaker 4: word experiences has been conflated with jumping out of a plane,

449
00:23:17,447 --> 00:23:18,967
Speaker 4: and I don't want to jump out. I take you

450
00:23:19,007 --> 00:23:22,927
Speaker 4: to her boundaries exactly. She's given her boundaries. But I

451
00:23:22,967 --> 00:23:24,727
Speaker 4: have things I want to do. I want to go for,

452
00:23:25,247 --> 00:23:27,047
Speaker 4: you know, a certain walk I want to see.

453
00:23:27,047 --> 00:23:28,047
Speaker 1: You make the list.

454
00:23:28,127 --> 00:23:30,487
Speaker 4: I make the list. I'll do a little spreadsheet with

455
00:23:30,567 --> 00:23:33,167
Speaker 4: my hero forty things I want to do. And then

456
00:23:33,207 --> 00:23:35,647
Speaker 4: what I do? You go put your little name next

457
00:23:35,647 --> 00:23:37,407
Speaker 4: to the little experience.

458
00:23:36,887 --> 00:23:37,647
Speaker 1: And pay for it.

459
00:23:37,967 --> 00:23:41,007
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the pay for it's interesting. A lot of

460
00:23:41,007 --> 00:23:43,567
Speaker 4: it I think would be free. This is the thing, right,

461
00:23:43,607 --> 00:23:45,647
Speaker 4: I don't want shit in my house from you. I

462
00:23:45,647 --> 00:23:47,567
Speaker 4: don't need more shit. I don't need more gifts.

463
00:23:48,047 --> 00:23:50,247
Speaker 3: I do like a car. We don't understand about that.

464
00:23:50,367 --> 00:23:52,487
Speaker 1: But what if, like there's something that you want to do,

465
00:23:52,807 --> 00:23:54,727
Speaker 1: but then someone you don't want to do it with

466
00:23:55,207 --> 00:23:56,207
Speaker 1: puts their name next, but.

467
00:23:56,487 --> 00:23:58,247
Speaker 2: You wouldn't send it to anyone you don't want to

468
00:23:58,247 --> 00:24:00,447
Speaker 2: do it with. This's is the tricky thing about this

469
00:24:00,567 --> 00:24:03,367
Speaker 2: is that Megan is a very privileged woman because she's seventy,

470
00:24:03,407 --> 00:24:05,847
Speaker 2: with seventy people in her life that she wants to

471
00:24:05,887 --> 00:24:06,527
Speaker 2: spend time with.

472
00:24:07,127 --> 00:24:09,487
Speaker 4: That's a lot of people, I would say, too many.

473
00:24:09,367 --> 00:24:12,527
Speaker 2: And forty people, Like I mean, this sounds terrible, but

474
00:24:12,607 --> 00:24:15,087
Speaker 2: like I think if I made a list of all

475
00:24:15,127 --> 00:24:16,967
Speaker 2: the people I would love to spend time with.

476
00:24:17,127 --> 00:24:18,527
Speaker 1: How sweetie, would it be? Really? Sure?

477
00:24:18,567 --> 00:24:20,087
Speaker 3: Well, it wouldn't it be. I don't think it'd be fifty,

478
00:24:20,247 --> 00:24:21,527
Speaker 3: would it? I don't think so.

479
00:24:21,647 --> 00:24:24,927
Speaker 4: I reckon that. After about twenty you're starting to clutch.

480
00:24:25,047 --> 00:24:27,367
Speaker 4: And then when they put their name next to let's

481
00:24:27,367 --> 00:24:28,927
Speaker 4: go for a swim at Bondi Beach, You're like, oh,

482
00:24:28,967 --> 00:24:29,967
Speaker 4: I actually don't, but I love.

483
00:24:30,367 --> 00:24:32,407
Speaker 2: What I love is the idea of this, and then

484
00:24:32,447 --> 00:24:34,727
Speaker 2: as you've done there like editing it to make it

485
00:24:34,767 --> 00:24:38,647
Speaker 2: something you like, because the spirit of it is beautiful,

486
00:24:38,927 --> 00:24:41,207
Speaker 2: like the idea of once a week if you can.

487
00:24:41,247 --> 00:24:43,687
Speaker 2: And obviously the glory about being seventy is she's probably

488
00:24:43,727 --> 00:24:47,407
Speaker 2: got like generalizing, generalizing time to do this stuff. She's

489
00:24:47,407 --> 00:24:49,967
Speaker 2: probably not rushing to work every day looking after kids,

490
00:24:50,007 --> 00:24:50,607
Speaker 2: whatever it is.

491
00:24:51,007 --> 00:24:51,927
Speaker 3: So she's got time.

492
00:24:52,367 --> 00:24:55,407
Speaker 2: And the idea of having a thing in your week

493
00:24:55,487 --> 00:24:57,967
Speaker 2: every week that was an experience you'd always wanted to do,

494
00:24:58,007 --> 00:24:59,567
Speaker 2: a place she wanted to go to hang out with

495
00:24:59,607 --> 00:25:02,367
Speaker 2: someone you really want to hang out with is beautiful

496
00:25:02,487 --> 00:25:05,967
Speaker 2: and without question, is better than all the shitty candles.

497
00:25:06,087 --> 00:25:07,927
Speaker 1: I don't know if it is, though, because I had

498
00:25:07,967 --> 00:25:12,167
Speaker 1: this actually happened to me last weirdly. Yeah, my friend Paula,

499
00:25:12,367 --> 00:25:15,127
Speaker 1: who's one of my closest friends. She's like, your birthday's

500
00:25:15,127 --> 00:25:17,887
Speaker 1: coming up. It's in October. She says, what if we

501
00:25:17,927 --> 00:25:20,807
Speaker 1: do something different. I can come and pick you up

502
00:25:20,807 --> 00:25:23,167
Speaker 1: early and we can drive up to Palm Beach and

503
00:25:23,207 --> 00:25:25,607
Speaker 1: we can do the Lighthouse Walk and then we can

504
00:25:25,687 --> 00:25:28,567
Speaker 1: have like breakfast at baron Joey House.

505
00:25:28,407 --> 00:25:31,607
Speaker 2: Or I don't know, so goodness met you your best friend?

506
00:25:32,127 --> 00:25:34,647
Speaker 2: You don't like walking outside.

507
00:25:34,447 --> 00:25:34,967
Speaker 3: All of it.

508
00:25:35,207 --> 00:25:36,887
Speaker 1: I just said to her, that's my worst night man.

509
00:25:36,927 --> 00:25:38,127
Speaker 3: See, I would like to do that.

510
00:25:38,167 --> 00:25:39,607
Speaker 1: I know she would like to do that.

511
00:25:39,807 --> 00:25:41,327
Speaker 3: Can I do it with Paula? Yes?

512
00:25:41,647 --> 00:25:43,527
Speaker 1: Because she would like to do that. And I thought,

513
00:25:43,567 --> 00:25:45,847
Speaker 1: oh god, I'm a bad friend because that's essentially what

514
00:25:45,967 --> 00:25:48,687
Speaker 1: she would like for her birthday. And I've never done anything.

515
00:25:49,167 --> 00:25:51,527
Speaker 1: And I was like, could we just go to the

516
00:25:51,527 --> 00:25:54,967
Speaker 1: same place we always go at six o'clock on like

517
00:25:55,007 --> 00:25:55,647
Speaker 1: a Wednesday.

518
00:25:55,767 --> 00:25:57,967
Speaker 2: This brings us back and I think we discussed this

519
00:25:57,967 --> 00:26:00,567
Speaker 2: the other day. Is a gift about you or about

520
00:26:00,567 --> 00:26:01,887
Speaker 2: the person you're giving it too? Right?

521
00:26:02,047 --> 00:26:03,967
Speaker 3: Because you're right?

522
00:26:04,247 --> 00:26:06,927
Speaker 2: No, shaped Paula, who's amazing, but she would know that

523
00:26:07,047 --> 00:26:08,047
Speaker 2: isn't what you want to do.

524
00:26:08,287 --> 00:26:10,767
Speaker 1: She also did she's offered that, and then she then

525
00:26:10,887 --> 00:26:12,687
Speaker 1: followed it up with another the text saying, or is

526
00:26:12,687 --> 00:26:15,007
Speaker 1: that your worst nightmare? And I'm like, it's my worst nightmare.

527
00:26:15,447 --> 00:26:18,127
Speaker 2: But she said, I thought that you've reminded me that

528
00:26:18,247 --> 00:26:20,927
Speaker 2: a friend of mine tried to do this recently. One

529
00:26:20,927 --> 00:26:23,567
Speaker 2: of my friends in my sort of core girl friend group.

530
00:26:23,767 --> 00:26:26,447
Speaker 2: We were having drinks around at Penny's place and she said,

531
00:26:26,447 --> 00:26:28,087
Speaker 2: I've got a birthday coming. I don't want to go

532
00:26:28,127 --> 00:26:30,487
Speaker 2: out for dinner. I don't want to just have wines.

533
00:26:30,567 --> 00:26:33,207
Speaker 2: I want us to do something different and we were

534
00:26:33,247 --> 00:26:40,647
Speaker 2: like stumped, and then she was like, so you lot

535
00:26:40,807 --> 00:26:44,447
Speaker 2: figure out what it is and we'll do it. And

536
00:26:44,487 --> 00:26:47,007
Speaker 2: my Nicole friend Penny, Nicole is the person in the

537
00:26:47,007 --> 00:26:50,007
Speaker 2: group who organizes things, did her best. You know they

538
00:26:50,167 --> 00:26:53,447
Speaker 2: like when you paint and drink, you know, paint and sick.

539
00:26:54,047 --> 00:26:57,167
Speaker 2: And she put one of those poles in our group chat.

540
00:26:57,527 --> 00:27:01,927
Speaker 2: No one could find a day, nothing ever happened. My

541
00:27:02,007 --> 00:27:06,127
Speaker 2: friend's birthday came went, we did absolutely so she said

542
00:27:06,167 --> 00:27:06,887
Speaker 2: the bar too high.

543
00:27:06,967 --> 00:27:09,047
Speaker 1: You should have just made a booking at your regular play.

544
00:27:08,927 --> 00:27:11,567
Speaker 4: Done a nude paint sip. This is what my friends

545
00:27:11,567 --> 00:27:13,687
Speaker 4: have been doing lately, and they say it's fabulous. Did

546
00:27:13,767 --> 00:27:16,247
Speaker 4: you do what I haven't done it? I think I was.

547
00:27:16,287 --> 00:27:20,167
Speaker 4: I'd just give berthelet all my friends went and they said.

548
00:27:19,967 --> 00:27:21,727
Speaker 3: You're not just their nude? Is that correct?

549
00:27:21,807 --> 00:27:21,967
Speaker 5: Yeah?

550
00:27:21,967 --> 00:27:23,287
Speaker 1: Their news isn't everybody nude?

551
00:27:23,327 --> 00:27:23,567
Speaker 3: No?

552
00:27:23,647 --> 00:27:24,487
Speaker 4: Not everyone's name?

553
00:27:24,567 --> 00:27:31,527
Speaker 1: Oh I thought everyone's new drawing. Sorry, I've got you've

554
00:27:31,527 --> 00:27:34,167
Speaker 1: got to be nude and you're painting and you're sipping.

555
00:27:34,847 --> 00:27:38,607
Speaker 1: I thought that was my worst nightmare. Jesus, But I think, Okay,

556
00:27:38,647 --> 00:27:39,567
Speaker 1: So who's nude?

557
00:27:39,967 --> 00:27:41,767
Speaker 4: So you go and do a nude painting of someone

558
00:27:41,807 --> 00:27:42,927
Speaker 4: who's like posing up the.

559
00:27:42,847 --> 00:27:45,047
Speaker 3: Front life drawing, which is fine.

560
00:27:45,087 --> 00:27:45,967
Speaker 1: You can keep your clothes on.

561
00:27:46,007 --> 00:27:47,487
Speaker 4: You can keep your clothes on. I guess you could

562
00:27:47,487 --> 00:27:48,447
Speaker 4: take them off if you want.

563
00:27:48,607 --> 00:27:50,407
Speaker 2: I love this because they are friends you like to

564
00:27:50,447 --> 00:27:51,887
Speaker 2: walk with. They are friends you like to eat with.

565
00:27:51,927 --> 00:27:53,447
Speaker 2: They are friends you like to you know, like, I've

566
00:27:53,487 --> 00:27:56,047
Speaker 2: got a friend in the city who likes She and

567
00:27:56,087 --> 00:27:58,247
Speaker 2: I have very similar taste in restaurants, Like we always

568
00:27:58,247 --> 00:27:59,887
Speaker 2: want to go and try somewhere cool. So that's what

569
00:27:59,927 --> 00:28:02,367
Speaker 2: we do together. You know, other friends. I like going

570
00:28:02,367 --> 00:28:03,607
Speaker 2: for a walk on the beach in the morning with

571
00:28:03,727 --> 00:28:07,127
Speaker 2: et cetera. So that's I like the idea of like curating.

572
00:28:07,207 --> 00:28:09,447
Speaker 2: But also the other thing about this is that it

573
00:28:09,487 --> 00:28:11,687
Speaker 2: does feel like a lot, a lot, a lot, doesn't it?

574
00:28:11,767 --> 00:28:12,807
Speaker 3: Finding time for it all?

575
00:28:12,967 --> 00:28:14,447
Speaker 1: We got out of our comfort zone and went on

576
00:28:14,487 --> 00:28:15,247
Speaker 1: a date night this week.

577
00:28:15,247 --> 00:28:17,367
Speaker 2: We did we didn't have pastor, we didn't have a

578
00:28:17,407 --> 00:28:18,207
Speaker 2: glass of wine.

579
00:28:18,367 --> 00:28:19,407
Speaker 1: We've never done that before.

580
00:28:19,847 --> 00:28:22,367
Speaker 4: No, we've never been to the movies together.

581
00:28:22,447 --> 00:28:23,407
Speaker 1: And that was my idea.

582
00:28:23,487 --> 00:28:25,487
Speaker 2: Look at us changing and growing. Oh my goodness, look

583
00:28:25,527 --> 00:28:26,647
Speaker 2: at you changing and growing.

584
00:28:27,007 --> 00:28:29,487
Speaker 1: Out Louders Milestone birthdays. Do you think this is a

585
00:28:29,487 --> 00:28:31,407
Speaker 1: good idea or is it your worst night mare? And

586
00:28:31,487 --> 00:28:35,087
Speaker 1: if it is, have you got better ideas for milestone birthdays?

587
00:28:37,287 --> 00:28:40,247
Speaker 4: Out Louders. If you have ever thought about becoming a

588
00:28:40,287 --> 00:28:43,447
Speaker 4: mum mea subscriber, then now is the time to do so.

589
00:28:43,647 --> 00:28:46,527
Speaker 4: We are giving away so many prizes as part of

590
00:28:46,567 --> 00:28:49,727
Speaker 4: our Lazy Girl giveaways. You might have heard recently about

591
00:28:49,767 --> 00:28:52,167
Speaker 4: a trip to Turkey that we gave away thousand dollars

592
00:28:52,207 --> 00:28:56,567
Speaker 4: Uber eats voucher i robots. Right now, all subscribers are

593
00:28:56,567 --> 00:29:00,127
Speaker 4: in the running to win one of five GHD styling tools.

594
00:29:00,527 --> 00:29:01,927
Speaker 4: If you want to go into the running for these

595
00:29:01,967 --> 00:29:04,847
Speaker 4: prizes and all future prizes, and all you have to

596
00:29:04,887 --> 00:29:07,807
Speaker 4: do is become a subscriber. You can use the code

597
00:29:08,047 --> 00:29:12,487
Speaker 4: lazy Hair for twenty percent off a yearly subscription. Link

598
00:29:12,607 --> 00:29:15,087
Speaker 4: is in the show notes. And if you want to

599
00:29:15,087 --> 00:29:17,327
Speaker 4: hear what it feels like to win a trip to Turkey,

600
00:29:17,807 --> 00:29:19,687
Speaker 4: listen to one of our favorite.

601
00:29:19,407 --> 00:29:23,967
Speaker 6: Subscribers, Jesse and Claire and all the team at Mama Mia.

602
00:29:24,047 --> 00:29:26,367
Speaker 6: I've just been listening to yesterday's episode and there's the

603
00:29:26,447 --> 00:29:29,127
Speaker 6: ad about becoming subscriber and that you can win stuff,

604
00:29:29,167 --> 00:29:31,287
Speaker 6: and there's some check won the Turkey holiday, and it

605
00:29:31,447 --> 00:29:34,327
Speaker 6: was me, Oh my god, I could not believe it

606
00:29:34,367 --> 00:29:37,367
Speaker 6: when I got that email. Just ecstatic my family.

607
00:29:37,887 --> 00:29:39,687
Speaker 1: It's like, what is going on? Who's died?

608
00:29:39,807 --> 00:29:42,007
Speaker 6: I don't know while we respond like that if someone died,

609
00:29:42,167 --> 00:29:46,687
Speaker 6: but anyway, it was just brilliant. We've booked the trip,

610
00:29:46,767 --> 00:29:50,327
Speaker 6: we're just waiting to book the flas and so stoked.

611
00:29:51,047 --> 00:29:52,807
Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

612
00:30:02,127 --> 00:30:05,527
Speaker 4: The names absolutely dominating the music charts at the moment

613
00:30:05,647 --> 00:30:09,767
Speaker 4: include Sabrina Carpenter, Billie Eilish, Charlie, XCX, Chapel R. I

614
00:30:09,807 --> 00:30:13,407
Speaker 4: could go on Carpenter in particular, has just released Short

615
00:30:13,447 --> 00:30:16,927
Speaker 4: and Sweet. It's her new album which has established her

616
00:30:17,047 --> 00:30:21,487
Speaker 4: as a major pop icon. Interestingly, the whole album only

617
00:30:21,567 --> 00:30:24,407
Speaker 4: runs for about thirty six minutes, which we'll get to.

618
00:30:24,967 --> 00:30:27,207
Speaker 4: But there's a few things happening at once in music

619
00:30:27,327 --> 00:30:29,807
Speaker 4: that I wanted to unpack with you both. The first

620
00:30:29,927 --> 00:30:33,127
Speaker 4: is that the solo female artist is having a moment

621
00:30:33,327 --> 00:30:35,607
Speaker 4: like never before. We have a Doja Cat, we have

622
00:30:35,687 --> 00:30:42,447
Speaker 4: a zar Sa No Sissa, we have a Scissa. I

623
00:30:42,527 --> 00:30:47,167
Speaker 4: was just thinking, look, I'm reading phonetically.

624
00:30:47,247 --> 00:30:49,047
Speaker 1: Some of you, the youngest one on this podcast.

625
00:30:49,287 --> 00:30:51,927
Speaker 4: We have a Megan Thee Stallion. We have a Taylor Swift,

626
00:30:52,007 --> 00:30:55,767
Speaker 4: Olivia Rodrigo, Beyonce I Spice. I don't know what I

627
00:30:55,847 --> 00:30:58,167
Speaker 4: Spice is, but she's one of them. There are dozens

628
00:30:58,167 --> 00:31:01,567
Speaker 4: and dozens. The second thing you might have noticed is

629
00:31:01,607 --> 00:31:05,247
Speaker 4: a disappearance of bands. They virtually don't exist in the

630
00:31:05,327 --> 00:31:09,007
Speaker 4: charts anymore. And the third thing is the TikTok off

631
00:31:09,807 --> 00:31:12,207
Speaker 4: of music. It's changed how we listen to music, the

632
00:31:12,247 --> 00:31:14,967
Speaker 4: distribution model, the way a song is structured, and certainly

633
00:31:15,127 --> 00:31:19,647
Speaker 4: the length. Holly is pop music totally different to what

634
00:31:19,687 --> 00:31:20,767
Speaker 4: it was even a decade ago.

635
00:31:20,967 --> 00:31:24,127
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it is a bloody love the fact that

636
00:31:24,287 --> 00:31:26,927
Speaker 2: all the hottest music artists at the moment are women.

637
00:31:27,647 --> 00:31:29,567
Speaker 2: I know it's not entirely true. There's a lot of

638
00:31:29,727 --> 00:31:31,407
Speaker 2: country artist, there's a lot of rap artists, as a

639
00:31:31,447 --> 00:31:33,247
Speaker 2: lot of who and there's all the red sharings and

640
00:31:33,287 --> 00:31:34,647
Speaker 2: all the kind of versions of them.

641
00:31:34,807 --> 00:31:35,487
Speaker 4: There's a post.

642
00:31:35,327 --> 00:31:38,047
Speaker 2: Milne, the guy with the guitars. There's like all those

643
00:31:38,087 --> 00:31:40,367
Speaker 2: guys too. I know that, but we're not interested in them,

644
00:31:40,767 --> 00:31:43,087
Speaker 2: and the young women aren't interested in them. And the

645
00:31:43,127 --> 00:31:45,207
Speaker 2: thing that makes me particularly excited about this is that

646
00:31:45,247 --> 00:31:47,327
Speaker 2: when I was young, and I've always loved music, but

647
00:31:47,567 --> 00:31:50,007
Speaker 2: everybody call was a bloke. There were the outliers, there's

648
00:31:50,047 --> 00:31:52,607
Speaker 2: your Madonnas and whatever, but that was pop music, music

649
00:31:52,647 --> 00:31:56,127
Speaker 2: that was taken seriously. Anyone who was considered a serious

650
00:31:56,167 --> 00:32:03,687
Speaker 2: songwriter was almost entirely a male scene years ago. But

651
00:32:03,807 --> 00:32:06,007
Speaker 2: Catly Moran writes a lot about this because she started

652
00:32:06,007 --> 00:32:07,887
Speaker 2: as a music journalist and she would be the only

653
00:32:07,927 --> 00:32:11,767
Speaker 2: woman in those rooms. Female musicians were seen as silly

654
00:32:11,807 --> 00:32:14,727
Speaker 2: and frivolous, and even ten years ago, I'd argue, yes,

655
00:32:14,807 --> 00:32:17,687
Speaker 2: of course there are the big iconic names, but now

656
00:32:17,927 --> 00:32:20,527
Speaker 2: It's like, if you look at the charts at the moment,

657
00:32:20,887 --> 00:32:25,287
Speaker 2: there's like a female, very mainstream singer for all kinds

658
00:32:25,327 --> 00:32:28,967
Speaker 2: of different versions of sexuality and being female. Because you're

659
00:32:28,967 --> 00:32:34,167
Speaker 2: Sabrina Carpenter looks very traditional, like this little blondie thing,

660
00:32:34,647 --> 00:32:36,407
Speaker 2: but they've kind of turned up the edge on it.

661
00:32:36,927 --> 00:32:37,607
Speaker 1: Polypocket.

662
00:32:37,807 --> 00:32:41,047
Speaker 2: You've got obviously all the brilliant, angsty songwriter of our

663
00:32:41,087 --> 00:32:44,967
Speaker 2: friend Taylor. If you're a thinky girl, you've got Charlie XCX,

664
00:32:45,007 --> 00:32:48,207
Speaker 2: who just wants to party hard. You've got Chapel, who

665
00:32:48,407 --> 00:32:51,647
Speaker 2: is just like an explosion in an excitement factory and

666
00:32:51,807 --> 00:32:54,727
Speaker 2: is a brilliant songwriter, as Adele pointed out this week,

667
00:32:55,047 --> 00:32:58,807
Speaker 2: and I feel like we've never had so many exciting versions.

668
00:32:59,167 --> 00:33:01,287
Speaker 4: It's great, yeah of femininity.

669
00:33:00,847 --> 00:33:03,807
Speaker 1: And there is Adele and Taylor's kind of more commercial.

670
00:33:03,847 --> 00:33:06,487
Speaker 1: Adele's more commercial. But this is like a new generation

671
00:33:07,287 --> 00:33:10,167
Speaker 1: and what I love. And to quote Catla Mareni when

672
00:33:10,207 --> 00:33:12,487
Speaker 1: she was talking about how there was a time sort

673
00:33:12,527 --> 00:33:16,487
Speaker 1: of ten twenty years probably less now, when every female

674
00:33:16,567 --> 00:33:18,967
Speaker 1: artist had to look the same way, which was a

675
00:33:19,127 --> 00:33:24,567
Speaker 1: very hot, skinny, sexy, white, very sexualized, very male, gaysy

676
00:33:24,967 --> 00:33:28,087
Speaker 1: version of what it meant to be woman, and she's like,

677
00:33:28,327 --> 00:33:31,367
Speaker 1: it's fine to have that, but men get all different kinds.

678
00:33:31,407 --> 00:33:34,447
Speaker 1: There's Keith Urban and there's a Shecherin, and there's post Malone,

679
00:33:34,487 --> 00:33:37,527
Speaker 1: and there's exactly and she said it would be lovely.

680
00:33:37,767 --> 00:33:40,047
Speaker 1: And now we're at that point that there are, as

681
00:33:40,087 --> 00:33:43,727
Speaker 1: you say, whole quite smartly, lots of different versions of it.

682
00:33:43,727 --> 00:33:46,687
Speaker 1: It really is a different generation and a completely different

683
00:33:46,687 --> 00:33:50,847
Speaker 1: aesthetic because if you look at Charlie XCX and Chapel

684
00:33:50,887 --> 00:33:54,367
Speaker 1: Roone and even Sabrina Carpenter a little bit I can understand,

685
00:33:54,407 --> 00:33:57,327
Speaker 1: particularly with the first two and Billie Eilish, it's a

686
00:33:57,367 --> 00:34:02,087
Speaker 1: different version of female sexuality. It still might be not

687
00:34:02,247 --> 00:34:05,247
Speaker 1: wearing many clothes, which you know is a trigger for me,

688
00:34:05,967 --> 00:34:09,127
Speaker 1: but it's also like kind of scary. It's not pans

689
00:34:09,607 --> 00:34:12,527
Speaker 1: in any way. Like Chaplan talks about her inspiration being

690
00:34:12,607 --> 00:34:17,007
Speaker 1: drag queens, and Charlie XCX is like, and even Sabrina Carpenter.

691
00:34:17,007 --> 00:34:20,047
Speaker 1: It's all about like blood and just all things that

692
00:34:20,087 --> 00:34:23,287
Speaker 1: aren't traditionally. It's not demure, it's the opposite of demure.

693
00:34:23,367 --> 00:34:23,887
Speaker 1: These women.

694
00:34:24,247 --> 00:34:28,487
Speaker 4: I have a question, which is obviously social media TikTok

695
00:34:28,487 --> 00:34:31,847
Speaker 4: in particular, has changed the music industry. Do we think

696
00:34:32,807 --> 00:34:37,127
Speaker 4: that the music industry living on social has also given

697
00:34:37,167 --> 00:34:39,727
Speaker 4: way to all of these women, right? Because women go

698
00:34:39,847 --> 00:34:43,207
Speaker 4: better on social they just do. They cultivate bigger followings.

699
00:34:43,487 --> 00:34:45,807
Speaker 4: They're the biggest influencers in the world. They know what

700
00:34:45,807 --> 00:34:48,367
Speaker 4: they're doing. Charlie XCX, that album and Brat, I mean,

701
00:34:48,447 --> 00:34:52,527
Speaker 4: the way that she mastered that was incredible. Men are

702
00:34:52,647 --> 00:34:54,767
Speaker 4: not able to do that in nearly the same way.

703
00:34:55,287 --> 00:34:57,087
Speaker 1: It's interesting to look at quite simply.

704
00:34:57,407 --> 00:34:59,247
Speaker 4: Yeah, do we think that that's another thing that the

705
00:34:59,287 --> 00:35:00,767
Speaker 4: TikTok age.

706
00:35:00,487 --> 00:35:03,047
Speaker 1: That everything's about video now, Yeah, and that it's.

707
00:35:02,887 --> 00:35:04,567
Speaker 4: Going to basically lift women up.

708
00:35:04,767 --> 00:35:07,527
Speaker 2: But also it's kind of great that what's happened is

709
00:35:07,567 --> 00:35:10,167
Speaker 2: that it used to be assumed that young girls and

710
00:35:10,207 --> 00:35:12,607
Speaker 2: young women only wanted to put pictures of boys on

711
00:35:12,607 --> 00:35:14,447
Speaker 2: their walls. I know, no one's putting pictures on their

712
00:35:14,447 --> 00:35:17,687
Speaker 2: walls anymore, but the equivalent, right, look at obsess over,

713
00:35:18,127 --> 00:35:21,687
Speaker 2: get really deep into the fandom of and that still exists.

714
00:35:21,687 --> 00:35:23,287
Speaker 2: You know, the biggest artists in the world are actually

715
00:35:23,327 --> 00:35:26,007
Speaker 2: all K pop artists, and that's a whole other world.

716
00:35:26,567 --> 00:35:28,927
Speaker 2: But the fact that women, as you rightly point out,

717
00:35:28,967 --> 00:35:31,367
Speaker 2: Jesse own social media in a way, and young women

718
00:35:31,407 --> 00:35:36,207
Speaker 2: in particular, and that the people they're obsessing over are

719
00:35:36,727 --> 00:35:40,247
Speaker 2: versions of themselves in different ways. I find that like

720
00:35:40,367 --> 00:35:44,727
Speaker 2: culturally deeply satisfying. That when I was young, and you know,

721
00:35:44,767 --> 00:35:46,207
Speaker 2: I don't want to be all like oh back in

722
00:35:46,247 --> 00:35:47,887
Speaker 2: the day, but you know, I had my pictures of

723
00:35:47,967 --> 00:35:49,927
Speaker 2: Duran Duran all over the wall, right, and I used

724
00:35:49,967 --> 00:35:52,247
Speaker 2: to be like, I'm going to marry Simon Lebon. One day.

725
00:35:52,287 --> 00:35:55,647
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking I'm going to make that music, I'm

726
00:35:55,647 --> 00:35:57,287
Speaker 2: going to be them. I was like, I'm going to

727
00:35:57,367 --> 00:35:59,527
Speaker 2: marry them and be next to them, you know what

728
00:35:59,527 --> 00:36:02,087
Speaker 2: I mean. You know, maybe a little bit more evolved idea.

729
00:36:02,127 --> 00:36:03,887
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in music journal and I'm going

730
00:36:03,927 --> 00:36:05,607
Speaker 2: to get to meet them, you know what I mean.

731
00:36:06,367 --> 00:36:08,567
Speaker 2: And I think that now you can't be it can

732
00:36:08,647 --> 00:36:12,047
Speaker 2: people are very much And the interesting thing about the

733
00:36:12,047 --> 00:36:15,167
Speaker 2: tiktokification because she brought up the point about how songs

734
00:36:15,167 --> 00:36:18,327
Speaker 2: have gotten shorter and how Sabrina Carpenter's album is Manu.

735
00:36:18,407 --> 00:36:20,087
Speaker 2: I guess that's in the title, right, the short and

736
00:36:20,127 --> 00:36:25,407
Speaker 2: sweet title. All of this explosion of female excellence looks organic,

737
00:36:25,407 --> 00:36:28,527
Speaker 2: but it's actually very carefully marketed. Like I'm obsessed with

738
00:36:28,567 --> 00:36:30,447
Speaker 2: the fact I've read about it lots of times now

739
00:36:30,807 --> 00:36:34,247
Speaker 2: that the Brat green of Charlie XCX that looked like

740
00:36:34,287 --> 00:36:36,487
Speaker 2: the most low five shit that someone put together on

741
00:36:36,527 --> 00:36:39,527
Speaker 2: their phone. She went through sixty three different shades of

742
00:36:39,527 --> 00:36:43,087
Speaker 2: green to perfectly market research brat green and exactly what

743
00:36:43,087 --> 00:36:45,727
Speaker 2: it was. And there's a whole thesis about like why

744
00:36:45,727 --> 00:36:47,847
Speaker 2: it's that particular color and not that one, and how

745
00:36:48,007 --> 00:36:49,607
Speaker 2: there was but Tago green, and we don't want that,

746
00:36:49,647 --> 00:36:51,087
Speaker 2: but we want this one. It's a bit scary, it's

747
00:36:51,087 --> 00:36:53,567
Speaker 2: a bit like it's just as manufactured really as pop

748
00:36:53,647 --> 00:36:55,847
Speaker 2: music has ever been. But it's just that now women

749
00:36:55,847 --> 00:36:58,047
Speaker 2: are much more involved in it rather than being the product.

750
00:36:58,127 --> 00:37:00,887
Speaker 2: So if you think about, like, even in the naughdies,

751
00:37:01,727 --> 00:37:05,967
Speaker 2: Jessica Simpson is making music because some yep, but the

752
00:37:06,407 --> 00:37:09,567
Speaker 2: strings are largely being pulled by male corporations. May they

753
00:37:09,607 --> 00:37:11,407
Speaker 2: still are in lots of ways, but the women seem

754
00:37:11,447 --> 00:37:13,647
Speaker 2: much more involved in it. But the thing about the

755
00:37:13,647 --> 00:37:15,967
Speaker 2: tiktokification of music, I think it's easy to roll your

756
00:37:15,967 --> 00:37:18,007
Speaker 2: eyes about it because if there isn't a catchy hook,

757
00:37:18,127 --> 00:37:21,487
Speaker 2: catchy bridge, it's over. But great pop music has always

758
00:37:21,487 --> 00:37:23,687
Speaker 2: been that, not great music full stop. There's lots of

759
00:37:23,767 --> 00:37:26,007
Speaker 2: music out there that's much more complicated and would never

760
00:37:26,207 --> 00:37:29,127
Speaker 2: work for you on TikTok. But the great pop songs

761
00:37:29,127 --> 00:37:32,287
Speaker 2: of our time have always been about short, tight, catchy

762
00:37:32,807 --> 00:37:34,567
Speaker 2: get into your head and you can't get them out,

763
00:37:34,607 --> 00:37:37,647
Speaker 2: and TikTok just rewards that and rewards that and rewards that.

764
00:37:37,687 --> 00:37:40,167
Speaker 4: But pop music is, as you say, it's always been

765
00:37:40,207 --> 00:37:42,887
Speaker 4: shaped by the medium. So it was a vinyl record

766
00:37:42,927 --> 00:37:46,007
Speaker 4: could only hold so much, so then that affected the

767
00:37:46,167 --> 00:37:48,607
Speaker 4: length of songs, and then on radio you can't go

768
00:37:48,647 --> 00:37:50,007
Speaker 4: over three and a half minutes because you've got to

769
00:37:50,007 --> 00:37:53,207
Speaker 4: play an act, right. I saw this graph of like

770
00:37:53,367 --> 00:37:55,447
Speaker 4: how long songs are, and they're just getting shorter and

771
00:37:55,487 --> 00:37:58,767
Speaker 4: shorter and shorter. Which one thing is TikTok. The other

772
00:37:58,847 --> 00:38:02,407
Speaker 4: thing that's impacting it that I didn't know was Spotify.

773
00:38:02,607 --> 00:38:06,367
Speaker 4: So artists earn royalties only if a listener stays engaged

774
00:38:06,407 --> 00:38:10,087
Speaker 4: for at least thirty seconds. So that is why songs

775
00:38:10,087 --> 00:38:12,567
Speaker 4: have much shorter intros, so you know how the good

776
00:38:12,607 --> 00:38:14,647
Speaker 4: stuff get to the good stuff straight away. I don't

777
00:38:14,647 --> 00:38:16,527
Speaker 4: have time for a song that takes a while to

778
00:38:16,527 --> 00:38:18,887
Speaker 4: get going that builds, and.

779
00:38:19,007 --> 00:38:20,967
Speaker 1: You've got to have the chorus in that thirty seconds.

780
00:38:21,047 --> 00:38:24,527
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a pay per play model which incentivizes artists

781
00:38:24,607 --> 00:38:27,607
Speaker 4: to create shorter songs because that encourages more replays and

782
00:38:27,647 --> 00:38:31,287
Speaker 4: more replays and more revenue. So we cut the bridge,

783
00:38:31,367 --> 00:38:33,167
Speaker 4: we put the chorus in, We get the bit I

784
00:38:33,207 --> 00:38:36,607
Speaker 4: recognized from TikTok in the first eight seconds, and then listen.

785
00:38:37,127 --> 00:38:39,247
Speaker 4: In fact, after the thirty seconds, it doesn't matter if

786
00:38:39,247 --> 00:38:41,127
Speaker 4: they go back and replay it, because I've already got

787
00:38:41,167 --> 00:38:41,607
Speaker 4: my money.

788
00:38:41,687 --> 00:38:44,247
Speaker 2: You can see that as very depressing. Yeah, that can

789
00:38:44,287 --> 00:38:47,647
Speaker 2: definitely be seen by musical purists as extremely depressing, or

790
00:38:48,087 --> 00:38:50,167
Speaker 2: it can be seen as a challenge how to write

791
00:38:50,167 --> 00:38:51,767
Speaker 2: a great song that works for that. I mean, I

792
00:38:52,327 --> 00:38:55,007
Speaker 2: chapel Rown songs are bloody brilliant. It wouldn't matter to

793
00:38:55,047 --> 00:38:58,047
Speaker 2: me if I'd never seen her face. Like those songs

794
00:38:58,047 --> 00:38:59,967
Speaker 2: are great. There's a song on the album called Coffee.

795
00:38:59,967 --> 00:39:02,247
Speaker 2: You would love it, Jesse. Yeah, that is all about

796
00:39:02,367 --> 00:39:03,967
Speaker 2: I can't go for coffee with you because it's never

797
00:39:04,007 --> 00:39:06,087
Speaker 2: just coffee. That is one of the best written songs

798
00:39:06,127 --> 00:39:07,807
Speaker 2: I've heard in one hundred years.

799
00:39:07,887 --> 00:39:11,447
Speaker 4: But it ticks all those But then I suppose as well. Right,

800
00:39:11,487 --> 00:39:14,207
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about you know, the songs we might love

801
00:39:14,287 --> 00:39:17,367
Speaker 4: from forty years ago or whatever, or your Fleetwood Mac

802
00:39:17,607 --> 00:39:22,007
Speaker 4: or whatever that tell a story, that take their time,

803
00:39:22,327 --> 00:39:27,167
Speaker 4: that provide context. Now there is no such thing as context,

804
00:39:27,327 --> 00:39:31,447
Speaker 4: because your please Please Please, Sabrina Carpenter is a SoundBite

805
00:39:31,487 --> 00:39:34,087
Speaker 4: on TikTok needs to make sense on its own.

806
00:39:35,127 --> 00:39:36,487
Speaker 1: But not everybody's on TikTok.

807
00:39:36,527 --> 00:39:39,007
Speaker 2: So I think that that's just a particular kind of market.

808
00:39:39,127 --> 00:39:41,487
Speaker 2: Look at me, as friend Taylor all her songs.

809
00:39:41,247 --> 00:39:43,407
Speaker 4: But Taylor like I'm the problem, it's me or whatever,

810
00:39:43,567 --> 00:39:45,847
Speaker 4: like that's designed for TikTok. And when you say not

811
00:39:45,887 --> 00:39:51,807
Speaker 4: everyone's on TikTok, the billboard charts are directly influenced by TikTok.

812
00:39:51,847 --> 00:39:53,527
Speaker 4: Is just definding interesting.

813
00:39:53,247 --> 00:39:55,807
Speaker 1: Because artists don't make money from that. So a lot

814
00:39:55,847 --> 00:39:57,847
Speaker 1: of the record companies tried to pull all their artists

815
00:39:57,887 --> 00:40:01,967
Speaker 1: from TikTok, and Taylor You laterally went back before she

816
00:40:02,167 --> 00:40:05,807
Speaker 1: released Tortured Poets because she knew that if your music

817
00:40:05,807 --> 00:40:08,567
Speaker 1: can't be used on TikTok, it's very hard to break

818
00:40:08,567 --> 00:40:09,647
Speaker 1: an album.

819
00:40:09,687 --> 00:40:12,927
Speaker 2: That's true, but I think it's always been thus that

820
00:40:13,007 --> 00:40:15,007
Speaker 2: the music industry just like movies and TV.

821
00:40:15,127 --> 00:40:17,087
Speaker 3: There's prestige, there's pop.

822
00:40:17,447 --> 00:40:19,047
Speaker 2: There's always going to be room, but they're not going

823
00:40:19,087 --> 00:40:21,087
Speaker 2: to make as much money for the songs that But

824
00:40:21,287 --> 00:40:24,207
Speaker 2: there is also a massive movement of men with guitars,

825
00:40:24,487 --> 00:40:28,327
Speaker 2: and country music is enormous and rap music is enormous,

826
00:40:28,327 --> 00:40:28,847
Speaker 2: So we're.

827
00:40:28,687 --> 00:40:30,487
Speaker 3: Talking about a very specific part.

828
00:40:30,567 --> 00:40:34,327
Speaker 4: Yet this came up at the the Logi's actually, and

829
00:40:34,367 --> 00:40:36,727
Speaker 4: you've heard every Australian musician talk about this, that there

830
00:40:36,767 --> 00:40:40,007
Speaker 4: has never been a harder time to be a musician

831
00:40:40,047 --> 00:40:42,327
Speaker 4: and to make money from and to make money because

832
00:40:42,367 --> 00:40:44,487
Speaker 4: what you've got is the Sabrina Carpenter's and the Taylor

833
00:40:44,527 --> 00:40:48,647
Speaker 4: Swifts and the Charli XCX have such domination over the

834
00:40:48,647 --> 00:40:52,167
Speaker 4: market that the only way for other people to seemingly

835
00:40:52,247 --> 00:40:55,167
Speaker 4: get discovered is TikTok. And you will see that any

836
00:40:55,207 --> 00:40:57,927
Speaker 4: Australian artist who releases a song, go find them on

837
00:40:57,967 --> 00:41:00,447
Speaker 4: TikTok and look at how many videos they've had to

838
00:41:00,527 --> 00:41:03,487
Speaker 4: make to try and make that sound go viral. And

839
00:41:03,487 --> 00:41:07,247
Speaker 4: they've expressed enormous frustration that there is no A and R,

840
00:41:07,607 --> 00:41:12,127
Speaker 4: there's no publicity strategy anymore. It's just get big on TikTok.

841
00:41:12,167 --> 00:41:13,007
Speaker 4: And you shrug each other.

842
00:41:13,207 --> 00:41:16,087
Speaker 2: So live music, which is a way that smaller fans

843
00:41:16,167 --> 00:41:18,527
Speaker 2: used to get seen, Like we love a big event

844
00:41:18,687 --> 00:41:20,767
Speaker 2: gig where everyone has to queue up for forty million

845
00:41:20,807 --> 00:41:23,207
Speaker 2: hours on the internet to buy tickets, but it's very

846
00:41:23,247 --> 00:41:27,487
Speaker 2: hard for younger, smaller artists to fill rooms. Anyway, that's

847
00:41:27,527 --> 00:41:29,407
Speaker 2: all we've got time for on the show today. Out

848
00:41:29,407 --> 00:41:31,247
Speaker 2: louder Is, thank you for listening. But before we go,

849
00:41:31,327 --> 00:41:34,167
Speaker 2: we did something special this week which we're hoping to

850
00:41:34,247 --> 00:41:36,807
Speaker 2: keep doing if you like it, of course, which is

851
00:41:36,847 --> 00:41:39,927
Speaker 2: we did a US election special with Amelia Lesti. You

852
00:41:40,007 --> 00:41:42,647
Speaker 2: might remember Amelia from the show that she and Mea

853
00:41:42,807 --> 00:41:43,447
Speaker 2: used to do.

854
00:41:43,447 --> 00:41:45,367
Speaker 1: Called tell Me It's going to be Okay.

855
00:41:45,687 --> 00:41:47,607
Speaker 3: They had to stop doing it because.

856
00:41:47,367 --> 00:41:51,687
Speaker 2: It wasn't exactly And Amelia is a very experienced of wise,

857
00:41:52,087 --> 00:41:55,207
Speaker 2: an esteemed journalist who's actually spent twenty years living in

858
00:41:55,247 --> 00:41:57,927
Speaker 2: the US, including five in DC. She is the deputy

859
00:41:57,927 --> 00:42:00,087
Speaker 2: headit of a magazine call Foreign Policy, so she is

860
00:42:00,247 --> 00:42:02,887
Speaker 2: so smart on this stuff. Here is a little bit

861
00:42:03,367 --> 00:42:06,207
Speaker 2: of the episode we recorded for subscribers about.

862
00:42:06,007 --> 00:42:06,727
Speaker 3: The American election.

863
00:42:07,727 --> 00:42:10,767
Speaker 1: I am obsessed with JD Fance.

864
00:42:11,087 --> 00:42:13,887
Speaker 5: To me, he just seems like if you ask chat

865
00:42:13,927 --> 00:42:18,447
Speaker 5: gpt to create the least likable person ever. He is

866
00:42:18,807 --> 00:42:22,287
Speaker 5: so unlikable that I cannot look away. He is like

867
00:42:22,407 --> 00:42:25,847
Speaker 5: a character from the office. Has everyone seen the video

868
00:42:26,447 --> 00:42:29,887
Speaker 5: in the donuts shop from last week? No, So basically

869
00:42:29,927 --> 00:42:32,087
Speaker 5: he went into a donut shop in Georgia.

870
00:42:32,167 --> 00:42:34,567
Speaker 1: He has never ordered a donut or any kind of

871
00:42:34,567 --> 00:42:35,807
Speaker 1: beats good in his life.

872
00:42:35,967 --> 00:42:39,927
Speaker 5: He asks her to put whatever donuts makes sense in

873
00:42:39,967 --> 00:42:43,047
Speaker 5: the box, whatever donuts makes sense?

874
00:42:43,687 --> 00:42:46,807
Speaker 1: And how good is that conversation? And I'm allowed to

875
00:42:46,847 --> 00:42:49,087
Speaker 1: say it well because it's mostly Amelia talking and she

876
00:42:49,287 --> 00:42:51,487
Speaker 1: the best thing about it. If you want to listen

877
00:42:51,647 --> 00:42:53,727
Speaker 1: to the rest of this episode, we will put a

878
00:42:53,767 --> 00:42:54,927
Speaker 1: link in a show notes.

879
00:42:55,007 --> 00:42:56,767
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.

880
00:42:57,327 --> 00:43:00,247
Speaker 4: Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening. If

881
00:43:00,287 --> 00:43:02,247
Speaker 4: you love the show and you want to support us,

882
00:43:02,487 --> 00:43:05,407
Speaker 4: subscribing to MoMA MAA is the very best way to

883
00:43:05,447 --> 00:43:07,887
Speaker 4: do so. There's a link in the episode description.