Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud. It's what
Speaker 2: women are talking about on Wednesday, the fifth of November.
Speaker 1: I am hollywayn Might, I'm Amelia Lester, and.
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And what's made our agenda for today? Well, there's an
Speaker 2: American man that I had never heard of, but who
Speaker 2: is in the last couple of days, absolutely everywhere I look,
Speaker 2: So who is he? And what does he want from us?
Speaker 2: Amelia knows?
Speaker 1: And what happened to all the rom coms? Is that
Speaker 1: why we're bad at dating now? Because there are no
Speaker 1: rom comms anymore. Bruce Witherspoon has a theory.
Speaker 3: And the deodorant ad that made me feel very weird?
Speaker 3: Why is everyone so obsessed with smell? Right?
Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, four suspects have
Speaker 1: been arrested in the Louver heist which transfixed the world recently.
Speaker 1: Did you see the photo?
Speaker 3: Did I see marg Shotz? I was gonna ask I
Speaker 3: saw them circular.
Speaker 2: They were very handsome.
Speaker 1: They are not the felons in question. They are previous
Speaker 1: hot felons. Sorry to burst the bubble. It was nice
Speaker 1: to imagine, no word on the jewels and where they are.
Speaker 1: But police are definitely playing bad cop with these suspects.
Speaker 1: They are making clear that they were not exactly criminal masterminds,
Speaker 1: and they are dismissing them as petty thieves, which I
Speaker 1: know is a phrase that sounds so much more amazing
Speaker 1: when said in French. Unfortunately, for the Louver, the people
Speaker 1: in charge of the security systems, they were also not
Speaker 1: exactly operating at an elite level. A report in the
Speaker 1: French newspaper Liberacion do you like that accent? Thank you,
Speaker 1: reports that the password on the Louver's video surveillance system,
Speaker 1: the video surveillance system which went down briefly during the heist,
Speaker 1: that password was Louver. And all I can say is,
Speaker 1: at least it wasn't password you know.
Speaker 3: Me My first guess I think that you just know
Speaker 3: that whoever was made the password got to the you know,
Speaker 3: come on, what's password? They looked up, they saw the
Speaker 3: Louver and they went, that'll do it. Now. They did
Speaker 3: use the capital, which I think was probably part of
Speaker 3: the rules, but I would bet any money that it
Speaker 3: has now been changed to love one exam just as
Speaker 3: a little special character need to make it a bit harder.
Speaker 2: They need to employ some teenage boys. My son's really
Speaker 2: good at changing passwords to things I can't guess, like,
Speaker 2: really good at it. He would never make such a
Speaker 2: rookie mistake.
Speaker 3: Politely, though, Billy, I don't want access to any of
Speaker 3: your You have no money, you have nothing interesting though.
Speaker 2: He just wants to hide.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like the computers are getting more bossy
Speaker 1: with us about passwords? Like lately, I've been having this
Speaker 1: situation where it will just very rudely reject the password
Speaker 1: that I have been using for everything for the last
Speaker 1: six years of my life, and it says, oh, it
Speaker 1: has to have special characters, it has to have more
Speaker 1: letters in it. I mean, they're so bossy.
Speaker 3: Does anyone use a special character that isn't an exclamation?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Such a good question.
Speaker 2: I tell you that you might happen to like the
Speaker 2: place I'm keeping all my Crown jewels.
Speaker 3: Recently, I was tapped on the shoulder and told Jesse
Speaker 3: there's been a data breach and you are the only
Speaker 3: one in the whole company, And they said, you've got
Speaker 3: to change your password, and probably if you know, if
Speaker 3: you've used that password for another account, I would change it.
Speaker 3: Four hours later, I was like, going through every account,
Speaker 3: how do I change it slightly so that I am
Speaker 3: not in a situation like this?
Speaker 2: Love, There's a man who is suddenly all over my
Speaker 2: Instagram and not only mine. To give you a little
Speaker 2: behind the scenes glimpse into the way out loud works,
Speaker 2: our friend Emily Vernham jumped into our slack channel, which
Speaker 2: is where we like put all our links for things
Speaker 2: we want to discuss, and then we whittled them down,
Speaker 2: and she had written basic bitch news pitch. This sexy
Speaker 2: politician is all over my social feeds. What does he
Speaker 2: want from me? She was talking about Zoran Ma Danni,
Speaker 2: the man who is suddenly all over my feeds too,
Speaker 2: along with his unofficial theme song which I'm about to
Speaker 2: play you.
Speaker 4: The name is mom Dannie M.
Speaker 1: The name is.
Speaker 2: Mom Dannie M.
Speaker 4: You should learn how to say it M.
Speaker 2: He should learn how to say it.
Speaker 3: Is that his voice so he's actually singing that.
Speaker 2: What he did is he said it at a debate
Speaker 2: where his opponent kept like mispronouncing his name and mispronouncing
Speaker 2: his name. So he said it, and he said, and
Speaker 2: you should learn how to say it. Because he was
Speaker 2: about to say, because I'm going to be your mayor,
Speaker 2: and he pulled himself back from the edge, and then
Speaker 2: they've taken it and put it on honestly the ICONICYI Anyway,
Speaker 2: the reason I know all this when I literally had
Speaker 2: never seen this man before the last forty eight hours,
Speaker 2: it's because of the invasion of my internet. Emilia Lester,
Speaker 2: you know who he is. Tell us about Zorah mum
Speaker 2: Dani and why we all need to know.
Speaker 1: So by the time you're listening to this out lauders,
Speaker 1: and unless something very unexpected has happened, Zauren mum Danny
Speaker 1: will be the new mayor of New York City, and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of notable things about him. He is
Speaker 1: going to be the youngest mayor in over a century.
Speaker 1: He's thirty four. He will be New York's first Muslim mayor.
Speaker 1: And he's also excited young people, not just in New
Speaker 1: York but also across the United States and also the
Speaker 1: world in a way that we haven't seen since maybe
Speaker 1: Barack Obama. That's how big it is.
Speaker 3: Some of the commentary that I saw probably a few
Speaker 3: months ago actually when he appeared on the scene.
Speaker 2: Are you cooling, Yeah? I am.
Speaker 3: I don't know where you've been. But I was saying
Speaker 3: his I'm going to say a beautiful face, and that
Speaker 3: caught my attention, and some commentary said, this is the
Speaker 3: sort of Democrats answer to Trump. This is how you
Speaker 3: beat Trump. This man, what do they mean by that?
Speaker 1: I think that we just haven't seen this level of
Speaker 1: enthusias him in a really long time. I'm going to
Speaker 1: put a dampener on this and say that New York
Speaker 1: City is not America. It is very liberal. It's got
Speaker 1: a very different voting population to the rest of America.
Speaker 1: And Zoran is a Democratic socialist. He's very left wing,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of unlikely he's going to take the
Speaker 1: whole country by storm. But what I've taken away from
Speaker 1: this is that charisma is still really important, arguably more
Speaker 1: important than it's ever been for politicians. This man is
Speaker 1: good looking, he has kind eyes, He is great on
Speaker 1: social media. Here, just as an example, listen to this
Speaker 1: ad that he made to play during The Golden Bachelor,
Speaker 1: and keep in mind that as he's speaking here, he
Speaker 1: is walking towards the camera holding a rose.
Speaker 4: You deserve better, You deserve to be able to raise
Speaker 4: your family. Here, to be safe to travel where you
Speaker 4: need to free of costs and worry. You deserve someone
Speaker 4: who as hard as you do, who thinks about you
Speaker 4: every second of the day. That's the kind of mayor
Speaker 4: I promised to be New York.
Speaker 3: Will you accept this Russ paid for by Zoron for NYC.
Speaker 1: He that completely gets me.
Speaker 2: Exceptionally good at social media because in the last twenty
Speaker 2: four hours, when I've done this deep dive, I've seen
Speaker 2: him do that. I've also seen him do a million
Speaker 2: kind of questionnaires with influences on the streets of New York.
Speaker 2: I've seen him at night, I've seen him in the morning.
Speaker 2: I've seen him like he totally gets the twenty four
Speaker 2: to seven, always on, jump on a trend's social media stuff, right?
Speaker 2: Is that a large part of why people are saying
Speaker 2: this is what you need to be now? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think so. But there are lots of politicians you
Speaker 1: post a lot on social media and people are not
Speaker 1: sending like the emoji with the love hearts about them,
Speaker 1: Like JD Vanntce, the Vice President. He's big on social media.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's like wanting to hear him play
Speaker 1: The Golden Bachelor anytime soon. I've got a question for
Speaker 1: the group, because obviously his agenda has really excited a
Speaker 1: lot of young progressives. We're not going to talk about
Speaker 1: his policy positions here. The question I want to ask
Speaker 1: is is charisma just being good looking?
Speaker 3: No, there's something else. There's this confidence that he has.
Speaker 3: He's obviously incredibly articulate, but I think that the charisma
Speaker 3: in this context also comes from being what feels like
Speaker 3: anti establishment, whether it is or it isn't. He feels
Speaker 3: like a rebel, which is what probably, you know, the
Speaker 3: climate in the US wants right now. It's funny though,
Speaker 3: because it's like, do you need that to be a leader,
Speaker 3: Because when we look at politicians in Australia charisma. We
Speaker 3: actually had a conversation about this recently and Jackie Lamby
Speaker 3: came up where people go, she's got charisma.
Speaker 2: And I got in a lot of trouble for saying,
Speaker 2: and I stand by it that Barnaby Joyce has charisma.
Speaker 3: Well he's a character, isn't he. Yah, And there are
Speaker 3: a lot of successful politicians in Australia who I wouldn't
Speaker 3: say have charisma. So I wonder if we are because
Speaker 3: of the social media age, do politicians need to be
Speaker 3: creators now, like first and foremost almost influences.
Speaker 2: They either do or they need some people on their
Speaker 2: team who they work very closely with and trust very
Speaker 2: much who do know how to do that. But back
Speaker 2: to the charisma point, because we had this discussion is
Speaker 2: charisma just good looking a while ago when we were
Speaker 2: unpacking that and saying no, because Donald Trump has charisma.
Speaker 2: And the thing is is if you hate the people
Speaker 2: whose names I'm saying, then you're saying to your phone
Speaker 2: right now, no he doesn't, No, he doesn't. But if
Speaker 2: you ask yourself the question of why in an attention
Speaker 2: economy we are always looking at these people and listening
Speaker 2: to these people and talking about these people, it is
Speaker 2: in part because they have a lot of charisma. And
Speaker 2: I was thinking about it and thinking that I think
Speaker 2: maybe what charisma is, and it's a very hard thing
Speaker 2: to harness, is that you want to watch them and
Speaker 2: listen to them whatever they're saying, even if you don't agree.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. Age you hear people say
Speaker 2: I'd watch that person read the phone book or whatever
Speaker 2: they say, those kind of things like there are some
Speaker 2: people who have a watchability and a listenability that it
Speaker 2: didn't used to matter so much when we didn't filter
Speaker 2: everything through our phones and basically through video, but now
Speaker 2: we do. You have got to get attention, and if
Speaker 2: you are really astley, it's not fair to say dull,
Speaker 2: because I don't think the opposite of charismatic is dull.
Speaker 2: I think there are lots of very smart, articulate people
Speaker 2: who aren't charismatic. But it's like it has to be
Speaker 2: the thing now to get attention, don't you think, Well.
Speaker 1: But does it? Because does Anthony Albanesi have charisma? He's
Speaker 1: very successful as a politician.
Speaker 2: Very good question, because Jesse, do you think Albanesi has charisma?
Speaker 3: You know, I saw a glimpse of it recently when
Speaker 3: he was at a round table with Trump and there
Speaker 3: was the comment about who made the mean tweet about
Speaker 3: him and he kind of had this funny look at
Speaker 3: Kevin Rudd and I saw him deal with that in
Speaker 3: quite a natural or thing then tick away and I
Speaker 3: have found some of his appearances there to be charismatic.
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe his personality is part of it.
Speaker 1: I think that that moment with Trump was so telling
Speaker 1: because that could have been one of the worst moments
Speaker 1: of Anthony Albanese's life So high Stakes. A Sky News
Speaker 1: reporter from Australia wants to stir up some shit and
Speaker 1: he says to Donald Trump, do you know that the
Speaker 1: guy that Anthony albanezeis sent to Washington to be your
Speaker 1: ambassador said terrible things about you? And instead of freaking out,
Speaker 1: instead of starting to sort of give excuses and sort
Speaker 1: of hesitate and make explanations up, he just sat there
Speaker 1: and he grinned, and he seemed to be having a
Speaker 1: good time. He seemed comfortable in his own skin, and
Speaker 1: he seemed to be enjoying himself. And I'm starting to
Speaker 1: wonder if, in this day and age, when the news
Speaker 1: is so bleak and dark and serious, whether we kind
Speaker 1: of want politicians who seem to be not hating every moment.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting you say that, Amili, because when I
Speaker 2: was doing my mum Dani deep dive today, there are
Speaker 2: a million pieces on the internet, as I discovered in
Speaker 2: the last twelve hours, and I'm like, you are quite
Speaker 2: like today Holly, about the lessons he can teach us
Speaker 2: all about leadership all across this man, Yes, very much,
Speaker 2: but this is very interesting. One of the pieces said
Speaker 2: he has a happy warrior spirit, serious about the fight,
Speaker 2: light on bitterness, confident that persuasion is still possible. And
Speaker 2: that is what you were just describing. Then, is this
Speaker 2: he leans into beef, which I think is something that
Speaker 2: an older generation. I'm going to generalize enormously, but gen
Speaker 2: xes don't like that. I don't like that. Right, But
Speaker 2: he leans into beef, but not in a mean way,
Speaker 2: in a kind of I'll go to Fox News, I'll
Speaker 2: talk to my opponents. But he's got a lightness about
Speaker 2: him as he's dealing with very heavy things. Do we
Speaker 2: like that?
Speaker 1: Yes? And let's listen to a clip of when he
Speaker 1: got asked about something Donald Trump had said about him
Speaker 1: just recently in the last couple of days.
Speaker 4: Assemblymen, any response to President Trump saying he's better looking
Speaker 4: than you?
Speaker 1: I think we have not.
Speaker 3: My focus is on the cost of living crass.
Speaker 1: He just grins, he laughs, and he keeps walking.
Speaker 2: And he stays on message. This brings us to the
Speaker 2: thorny issue of whether or not women are allowed to
Speaker 2: have this kind of charisma and leadership right because Kamala
Speaker 2: Harris has been everywhere in the last couple of weeks
Speaker 2: promoting her memoir you know, I played that jaunty tune
Speaker 2: at the beginning. Remember how hard we all tried to
Speaker 2: make that happen with Kamala, the dancing videos, bratt and
Speaker 2: all that stuff, and it just didn't quite work. On
Speaker 2: the list of most charismatic leaders in the world, there
Speaker 2: are only two women that I have seen, and to
Speaker 2: be fair, we have to make it clear that there
Speaker 2: are far fewer women in leadership roles. We haven't got
Speaker 2: as many versions of leadership to dissect when it comes
Speaker 2: to women. But one of them is just Cindra Adun Yeah,
Speaker 2: no question. Angela Merkle was also on that list, right,
Speaker 2: two very different kinds of women with very different leadership stuff.
Speaker 2: Have we figured out what kind of charisma we like
Speaker 2: in women and why Kamala was deemed to not have it,
Speaker 2: even though on paper she was very cool, young, you know,
Speaker 2: like engaged.
Speaker 3: Some of the analysis I read was that something about
Speaker 3: this campaign has been incredibly organic, and I think especially
Speaker 3: gen Z and millennial audiences can see straight through strategy,
Speaker 3: so they can really see Harris. When you look back
Speaker 3: at her campaign, there were parts of it that felt
Speaker 3: so forced because they knew they had to harness the
Speaker 3: you know, young people vote, and they went ran really
Speaker 3: hard at TikTok and they wanted, you know, lots of
Speaker 3: people to come out and endorse her, and some of
Speaker 3: that felt a bit contrived, I think, whereas this just
Speaker 3: has seemed and maybe it's because he's had a longer
Speaker 3: run up. I think that probably has a lot to
Speaker 3: answer for. But every YouTube channel, to something on Twitch,
Speaker 3: to something on blah, like he's not just doing call
Speaker 3: her daddy, He's not even doing that, he's there, does
Speaker 3: seem to be something more organic about his identity on
Speaker 3: sorche So, if you've.
Speaker 2: Got a charismatic candidate, was we discussed you go your
Speaker 2: charismatic people like to watch you. Let's put you everywhere
Speaker 2: we can where people can watch you do stuff.
Speaker 1: The thing that concerns me is that we're sort of
Speaker 1: coalescing around a twenty twenty five definition of charisma, which
Speaker 1: says that you have to be a happy warrior. You
Speaker 1: have to look like you're having fun, you have to
Speaker 1: be natural, you have to be quote unquote authentic and hot.
Speaker 2: Ideally not necessarily, but it helps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what concerns me is that women are not
Speaker 1: granted permission to be jocular happy warriors, casual whatever, like
Speaker 1: go with the flow. In fact, Camera and Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: both were criticized for guess what, they're laugh They're not
Speaker 1: even allowed to laugh for a Zoran is always laughing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And what does that mean for women in the public eye?
Speaker 3: And the way that he is also afforded grace when
Speaker 3: it comes to conflict, which women are. I mean, if
Speaker 3: you learnt into conflict as a woman, then you would
Speaker 3: be called a bitch. So the difficulty with charisma is
Speaker 3: that in defining it, it's all about a vibe, it's
Speaker 3: all about a feeling, but it is incredibly gendered. I mean,
Speaker 3: what's exciting is that this is a man from a
Speaker 3: diverse background, which.
Speaker 1: Is in terms of he's an immigrant.
Speaker 3: He's an immigrant and a Muslim man who looks different
Speaker 3: to any man that New York has ever seen. So
Speaker 3: the fact that he has been able to kind of,
Speaker 3: I don't know, create this cult of personality is really refreshing.
Speaker 3: But I don't think we can pretend like charisma hasn't
Speaker 3: historically always been reserved.
Speaker 2: He has charisma. Ac has bags of charisma.
Speaker 1: And she's got the happy warrior thing, which is true.
Speaker 1: Kamala was people said she was a lunatic because she
Speaker 1: laughed so much.
Speaker 2: It came up.
Speaker 1: Again and again, this idea that she almost seemed unhinged.
Speaker 1: Is there anyone in Australia who's happy warrior? Who's warrior?
Speaker 3: I think Jackie Lamby. You know, you don't have to
Speaker 3: agree with all her politics, but she definitely courts attention
Speaker 3: and I think that that is due to some charisma.
Speaker 3: But I wonder if you know, maybe the misstep of
Speaker 3: Harris was that there were a lot of influencers who
Speaker 3: went and endorsed her. And there's all this controversy about
Speaker 3: whether we won our celebrities, or our lifestyle influences or
Speaker 3: our pop culture podcast to tell us who to vote for. Like,
Speaker 3: that's a question that I still don't think has been answered.
Speaker 2: I think it's been answered and the answer.
Speaker 3: No, Okay, So if we don't, I think that this
Speaker 3: is the next logical step, which is that the politician
Speaker 3: must become the influence.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's so true in a moment. If we just
Speaker 2: watched more rom coms, then apparently we'd be better at dating,
Speaker 2: says the Queen of the rom com Reese Witherspoon. Knows
Speaker 2: why we're all so bad at dating now it's because
Speaker 2: of the decline of the romantic common Let's hear her theory.
Speaker 2: She's talking to my mate Dax Shepherd on Armchair Expert.
Speaker 5: Do you know how there's been like the past ten years,
Speaker 5: even I would even say past fifteen years, is decline
Speaker 5: in like the making of rom coms or like legitimate
Speaker 5: big movie stars being in rom coms in Blockbuster. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: I think it's not just rom com movies. But I
Speaker 5: also think the rom com television show, the television show
Speaker 5: that you watched when you were eleven, twelve, and thirteen
Speaker 5: that made you practice, like imagine and visualized dating skills. Okay,
Speaker 5: I like that girl. I'm gonna ask her out. Oh
Speaker 5: what she says?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, my favorite character in the television show did that.
Speaker 5: Everybody hates Chris and he Chris asked out the hot
Speaker 5: girl and she said no, But the other girl she
Speaker 5: really likes him, and he can't tell. Social media started
Speaker 5: and then we stopped. We started kind of going rom
Speaker 5: coms are cringey, But it was actually where we learned
Speaker 5: social dynamics from Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan.
Speaker 2: I'm talking on the phone, can talk on the phone.
Speaker 3: Now, No, I don't think any witty.
Speaker 2: Banter, Yeah, oh, witty banter before we decide if we
Speaker 2: agree with this or not. She's definitely giving Reese's giving
Speaker 2: peak gen X nostalgia with this. I am that fuck
Speaker 2: with who's always throwing in when Harry met Sally references
Speaker 2: references to my friends when they want dailing advice, and
Speaker 2: Reese ages us.
Speaker 3: To start to move on.
Speaker 2: Jesse, do you agree with this rom com dating theory?
Speaker 3: Look on the surface. I listened to this clip and went,
Speaker 3: do I agree with your premise? Because yes, while there
Speaker 3: has been a decline in Blockbuster, go to the movies,
Speaker 3: watch when Harry met Sally that experience the summer, I
Speaker 3: turned pretty nobody wants this biggest show to the year, right,
Speaker 3: And the movie I went to see at the movies
Speaker 3: this year I think was Bridget Jones. I think I
Speaker 3: was alone in that.
Speaker 1: But it's not really a rom com.
Speaker 2: I know, but and also, having had to suffer through
Speaker 2: some summer out an pretty no offense to everyone who
Speaker 2: loves it.
Speaker 3: There's no common there's a lot of rocks, but nobody
Speaker 3: wants it.
Speaker 2: I take your point, but that is almost a reaction
Speaker 2: to the decline of the rom comms, right, because the
Speaker 2: rom coms declined and now people are trying to bring
Speaker 2: them back.
Speaker 3: Yes, and apparently this is a studied phenomenon that in
Speaker 3: two thousand and three or whatever, the top ten movies
Speaker 3: were just all you couldn't name, and we would have
Speaker 3: seen all of them, all of them that were at
Speaker 3: the box office. Everyone was watching rom coms. And then
Speaker 3: something Happened was.
Speaker 1: The plot of all of them. Sandra Bullock decides that
Speaker 1: her career is in everything and falls into Ye was
Speaker 1: a handsome man almost always.
Speaker 3: And then there was a Julia Roberts, and there was
Speaker 3: a Hugh Grant, and there was a Kate Hudson, and
Speaker 3: of course Catherine Heigel was in all of them. She
Speaker 3: was and I enjoyed them. That's what I was going
Speaker 3: to watch. I don't think we should over romanticize some
Speaker 3: of the tropes in those films that were often fat phobic,
Speaker 3: you know, exclusively hetero, that were about a man pursuing
Speaker 3: a woman who said no, but he just kept pursuing.
Speaker 3: Harry Mett Sally was about how manyamen can't be friends.
Speaker 2: The things I learned from rom coms, I learned that
Speaker 2: the man I hate on site is the one.
Speaker 3: Yes, you need drama, chaos and emotional pain.
Speaker 2: I learned there has to be an obstacle, and it
Speaker 2: might be that that man is an absolute asshole, and
Speaker 2: that maybe our marriage was miserable and that he didn't
Speaker 2: support my career and we drank and Ford all the time.
Speaker 2: But we should definitely get back together, because that's what
Speaker 2: happens in sweetheime al Obama.
Speaker 3: And there might have been a few back and forth
Speaker 3: witty lines, maybe you got three or four, but they
Speaker 3: fell in love after looking at each other and having
Speaker 3: twelve seconds under the set of sheets, Like it wasn't
Speaker 3: really showing us how to fall in love. But I
Speaker 3: think over the last twenty years a few things happened right.
Speaker 3: The first thing is an economic story, is about blockbusters
Speaker 3: and middle of the road films that are marvel. It's
Speaker 3: not Marvel, we don't make it. The second is feminism
Speaker 3: slash me Too, slash the bestial test. So there was
Speaker 3: this thing of reappraising every movie about whether or not
Speaker 3: it was feminist enough and gender ideals and all of that.
Speaker 3: And then the third thing, and this is where Reese
Speaker 3: is very right, is phones I don't know how you
Speaker 3: tell a dating story in twenty twenty five without phones,
Speaker 3: And I don't want to watch a movie that's just
Speaker 3: about texting and calling and blood. The tension is very
Speaker 3: and the stakes are very hard to play with when
Speaker 3: everyone can be contacted at every month.
Speaker 2: Let's not forget how many works of art we all
Speaker 2: worshiped where basically the premise was I can't get this
Speaker 2: person on the phone. There's a phone ringing in this house.
Speaker 2: I might not have fring it, so they can't solve
Speaker 2: this misunderstanding that might bring us all Londone. Now I
Speaker 2: can get him. I can get him at any time, Amelia.
Speaker 1: Interesting that Reyese mentioned social media. So I agree with
Speaker 1: all those explanations you gave, Jesse, but Reese sort of
Speaker 1: pins it on social media, and I wonder why that is.
Speaker 1: I wonder what makes rom coms antithetical to social media,
Speaker 1: because this is something that I think millennials feel really
Speaker 1: acutely too. Holly, you mentioned jen X, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to point out that Disney films have gone through a
Speaker 1: huge metamorphosis since we were growing up, Jesse. So in
Speaker 1: the nineties and in the early two thousands, the big
Speaker 1: Disney animated movies were always a romance like think of Aladdin,
Speaker 1: think of Beauty and the Beast, think of The Little
Speaker 1: Mermaidtails Milan. They were always a man and a woman, sadly,
Speaker 1: always a heterosexual love story, fall in love and other
Speaker 1: things happened in those movies, true, but they were fundamentally romances.
Speaker 1: And then something happened to Disney Films.
Speaker 3: That noise, that was a ghost. That was Sally Sally,
Speaker 3: missus Disney Films.
Speaker 1: Where's.
Speaker 2: Sorry out louders the ghost just a doubt to that conversation.
Speaker 2: I agree, but she hasn't lost your train of thought.
Speaker 1: She sounded her plaintive. And then something happened in the
Speaker 1: twenty tens and they became more about family trauma and drama.
Speaker 1: Think of Encanto, think of wish and.
Speaker 3: And ste.
Speaker 1: Film that is a film about family trauma. So this
Speaker 1: is not my point. This is actually a point made
Speaker 1: by the New York Times columnist Rosstout that he thinks
Speaker 1: that's a bad thing. He thinks that in moving away
Speaker 1: from the glorification of the love story is the ultimate story,
Speaker 1: we have lost an ability to build more meaningful relationships
Speaker 1: with each other. He points to the fact that surveys
Speaker 1: show now that parents think that what is most important
Speaker 1: for their kids is career satisfaction and financial security, not
Speaker 1: finding someone to love. And in the nineteen nineties, those
Speaker 1: survey results were flipped. We have seen the results of
Speaker 1: the deprioritization of love and it is kind of sad.
Speaker 1: I gotta admit it is.
Speaker 3: And it's chicken her egg, right. It's like, were we
Speaker 3: deprioritizing it and therefore we wanted it less from our
Speaker 3: films because we found it was just out of step
Speaker 3: with our culture, or did our films and movies in
Speaker 3: pop culture kind of shape that because the idea that
Speaker 3: that's all you needed to be complete was never true.
Speaker 3: There were a lot of things that told us that
Speaker 3: weren't true. But there's something awfully nihilistic when you look
Speaker 3: at the most watched Netflix shows of the year. I
Speaker 3: was like, surely I'm going to find some rom comms
Speaker 3: and nobody wants this was on it, But the rest
Speaker 3: was incredibly dark.
Speaker 2: I know why Reese brought up social media, right, it's
Speaker 2: to do with the cringe, because you know how the
Speaker 2: example that she used was ask the girl out right.
Speaker 2: Every high school romance movie, most rom comms especially if
Speaker 2: they're set in a younger environment, are like, you've got
Speaker 2: to ask somebody out, walk up to them, get all
Speaker 2: your nerve together, ask the man. That is not a thing.
Speaker 2: It is not a thing. Like in young people's world,
Speaker 2: what do you mean? I mean that between dating apps
Speaker 2: and social media and snapchat and messaging and all those things,
Speaker 2: no one is walking up to the hot girl at
Speaker 2: school and saying you want to go to prom with me.
Speaker 2: That is not happening. So I think that what Reese
Speaker 2: means when she was saying, like using that as an example,
Speaker 2: it's like you were all just talking about the tropes
Speaker 2: we grew up with that may or may not have
Speaker 2: been helpful, and how we've all got to you know,
Speaker 2: politically correct or whatever. I would point though we talked
Speaker 2: about this on the show the other day, that there's
Speaker 2: this deep satisfaction for romance that's coming from books, like
Speaker 2: those romance books are going off. But back to what
Speaker 2: the kids are doing when we were watching rom comy
Speaker 2: kind of shows. They're watching everything on social and there
Speaker 2: is no way they would subject themselves to the cringe
Speaker 2: of walking up to someone and asking them out. So
Speaker 2: Reese is saying, how are they learning how to deal
Speaker 2: with rejection? How are they learning? And that yes, that
Speaker 2: one that you know, I want to ask Amelia out.
Speaker 2: Amelia doesn't want to go out with me, but guess what,
Speaker 2: Jesse is just looking at me with these big puppy
Speaker 2: dog guys going but Holly, ask me, ask me, you know,
Speaker 2: that's what she said. That's all lost and how and
Speaker 2: how people.
Speaker 1: Know that the way to be your hottest self is
Speaker 1: to simply take your glasses off and pull down your hair.
Speaker 2: I'm concerned and that always the hot one is mean
Speaker 2: and always the plain one is nice, Like, how are
Speaker 2: they not learning these tropes?
Speaker 3: There was another point about social media that made me
Speaker 3: think that it's raised the monoculture.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So the idea is that when people went and saw
Speaker 3: the traditional nineties rom com, that actually men and women
Speaker 3: were going together, and that they were sitting in a cinema,
Speaker 3: and that it was a defining moment date movies. It
Speaker 3: was a date movie. Now there's this idea that men
Speaker 3: are over here watching forty thousand hours of porn and
Speaker 3: women are over here maybe watching the summer I turn.
Speaker 2: Pretty, or reading their fairy books.
Speaker 3: And then they turn up on a date and there's an.
Speaker 1: Issue that is so sad.
Speaker 2: Although I don't know, there were lots of men going
Speaker 2: to see maybe when Harry met Sally and those ones. Yes,
Speaker 2: although the stories were heterosexual, they were kind of often
Speaker 2: told from both perspectives. Yes, Sleepless in Seattle, when Harry
Speaker 2: met Sally, those really classically even like you've got male
Speaker 2: or whatever, they were told from the male and female perspective.
Speaker 3: Then what happened I was reading this analysis that said,
Speaker 3: then what happened was the story became about men dating
Speaker 3: over here. So even if you think about like a
Speaker 3: knocked up or like.
Speaker 2: Oh remember that, and when it was always something possibly
Speaker 2: hot girl doing like a cheerleading dance thing in her
Speaker 2: undies and this schlubby guy was like.
Speaker 1: She likes me like that.
Speaker 3: And then there was sex in the city. So women
Speaker 3: were talking to women, men were talking to men, And
Speaker 3: now there's not a place that we talk about both.
Speaker 3: And so there's this like we're speaking different languages on dates,
Speaker 3: which I think is an interesting theory.
Speaker 1: And I hate to bring this up, but the other
Speaker 1: story that made me think about this this week was
Speaker 1: did you hear about the story about gooning? No, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry but I need to tell you about this trend.
Speaker 1: Apparently there is a trend amongst some young men online
Speaker 1: to masturbate for hours on end to the point where
Speaker 1: they enter a hallucinatory state. Now that's not very wrong,
Speaker 1: calm friendly.
Speaker 2: That wasn't in any of the movie was.
Speaker 3: Talking in the analysis I read, it said when Harry
Speaker 3: met Sally was about coming together, and now a lot
Speaker 3: of what we consume is about coming alone. And I
Speaker 3: was like, Oh, saddest ship I've ever read.
Speaker 1: Come come back to us in a rom com. I
Speaker 1: will gladly go and see you give up your high
Speaker 1: powered legal career for a man with a truck in
Speaker 1: Alabama once.
Speaker 3: Again, legally blonde, Sweet Home, Alabama eleven. We're ready for it.
Speaker 2: Speaking of romance, I need to talk to you about
Speaker 2: some of the weirdest shit I've seen them the internet lately,
Speaker 2: and I cannot stop thinking about it.
Speaker 1: It's not about groooning.
Speaker 2: It's definitely not about that. I wish I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: In the file of things I wish I didn't know
Speaker 2: I saw on substack this week, and look this story
Speaker 2: I'm about to tell you. It's a quick one, but
Speaker 2: it illustrates how hard. People are trying to get attention
Speaker 2: on substack and other social media and I get it again.
Speaker 2: I've got a substack out loud as sign ups, so
Speaker 2: I don't have to go on these leaks, please my God.
Speaker 2: And anyway, I saw a performance artist called Harriet Richardson
Speaker 2: had just got a new tattoo, a list of names
Speaker 2: on her torso like a nice cursive font, very attractive tour.
Speaker 2: So the list of names are of the mothers of
Speaker 2: the men that she has slept with in her life.
Speaker 3: This is why we don't have rom coms.
Speaker 2: There are fourteen of them. They look very artistic. The
Speaker 2: name of Vicky, Dawn, Linda, Diane, Maureen, like I just
Speaker 2: there also such great can you explain why? So she
Speaker 2: said that she thinks that sex is a very important thing.
Speaker 2: So some of the men who's other's names are tattooed
Speaker 2: on her body were one night stands, and some of
Speaker 2: them were really serious relationships that lasted years. And she
Speaker 2: says this is all of similar importance because this is
Speaker 2: penetrative sex that she's being very specific about. It is
Speaker 2: such an intimate act that she wanted this act of intimacy.
Speaker 1: I'm glad she's drawing boundaries like that it's important.
Speaker 2: I found myself getting really indignant about this, my fictionalized
Speaker 2: adult son who has decided to sleep with an attractive
Speaker 2: performance artist on the New York or London where Harriot's from.
Speaker 2: And then suddenly, my name is her body and it's
Speaker 2: got nothing to do. He chose to put his penis.
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen Holly this worked up about anything.
Speaker 3: She doesn't understand art. I read this and went, I actually, reckon,
Speaker 3: this is really clever. I think it's about the Madonna
Speaker 3: ware dichotomy. Of course it is, And it's about how
Speaker 3: the name of a mum for a man is sacred.
Speaker 3: It's like she is permanent. She is the most important
Speaker 3: person in their lives, but they don't see the woman
Speaker 3: that they're having this transactional sex with where they walk
Speaker 3: away and she's forgettable and blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: Different species.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like a different species. And so she,
Speaker 3: I think, is trying to make a statement by having
Speaker 3: their names there. That's like, I am of the same stuff.
Speaker 2: To find out the names of these men, some of
Speaker 2: them she knew, like the ones she'd been related with.
Speaker 2: She actually had a private investigator in London to go
Speaker 2: and find two of them out, which she said she
Speaker 2: found very satisfying because she didn't know them and she
Speaker 2: wanted to be accurate because it was so important accurate.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to figure out ever since you told
Speaker 1: me about the story why it makes you so upset,
Speaker 1: because you don't often get upset about things. You're very
Speaker 1: sexually liberated, you are unmarried, So I'm like, what is
Speaker 1: going on? Why is Holly so upset? And I think
Speaker 1: it's because it's sort of a perfect parental storm because
Speaker 1: it involves tattoos, which you're just worried about for your kids,
Speaker 1: like are they going to go out and get a
Speaker 1: tattoo one night? And it involves sleeping with people, and
Speaker 1: it involves thinking about your children sleeping with people.
Speaker 3: So it's just me, yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: Have anything to do with this, I reckon me. I
Speaker 2: would love this. She would love it because she would
Speaker 2: like to be involved. I don't mean that's actually that's weird, rabbit.
Speaker 2: She likes to be involved.
Speaker 3: Generally, she's got main character energy and she's like, I
Speaker 3: would just like to be acknowledged. After the break the
Speaker 3: deodorant you're meant to put literally everywhere smell maxing frag
Speaker 3: heads perfumesta. Why is the culture so invested in us
Speaker 3: smelling really really good frag heads smell maxing? Why is
Speaker 3: smell the sense of the moment? First, I want to
Speaker 3: tell you about a weird experience I had yesterday because
Speaker 3: I got off the train and I was going up
Speaker 3: the escalator and everyone around me was pointing and like
Speaker 3: kind of commenting it this ad on the walls. It
Speaker 3: was like we were entombed in an ad. It was
Speaker 3: just everywhere, right, and it was a deodorant ad, but
Speaker 3: there were pictures of bottoms and feet and the word
Speaker 3: balls was written in really big light, just stamped there,
Speaker 3: and it was about this neur Ez owner deodorant which
Speaker 3: is meant to be used everywhere. It says stay fresh everywhere,
Speaker 3: spray or is it both? There are both. So this
Speaker 3: has been accompanied by a Martha Stewart ad where she
Speaker 3: talks you through deodorizing your thighs. That's where she starts
Speaker 3: matha feet, breasts, and then she clarifies that yes, you
Speaker 3: can use it down under right, and the product might
Speaker 3: be amazing. It's important to flag here that on our podcast,
Speaker 3: well you will have heard as well as many doctors
Speaker 3: say pH levels vagina, self cleaning before we go spraying,
Speaker 3: putting things, maybe chucking.
Speaker 2: It's like a self cleaning ovem.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, it's a self cleaning up.
Speaker 1: We're all oven self cleaning, by the way, because I've
Speaker 1: never cleaned out, I've.
Speaker 2: Never had a self cleaning of it, but I just
Speaker 2: pretend that I do. This is similar or.
Speaker 3: I'm interested in It's not how often you clean your ovens,
Speaker 3: but the cultural obsession with smell so body lotions. The
Speaker 3: global fragrance market is the biggest it has ever been
Speaker 3: and still growing. Deodorant market skyrocketing. What is going on here, Amelia,
Speaker 3: what do you reckon?
Speaker 1: Well, as usual, it's gen Z's fault. Yeah, they are
Speaker 1: obsessed with fragrance, and not in the way that Look
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, which sprayed, our impulse body
Speaker 1: spray and we got along with our days.
Speaker 3: Did you have Britney Spears?
Speaker 1: No, I had Spice Skills Limited Edition.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: The difference with gen Z is that they're into high
Speaker 1: end fragrance. They're not just into the impulse And apparently
Speaker 1: eighty three percent of gen Z wears fragrance as often
Speaker 1: as three times a week. Fragrance, not impulse, body spray, fragrance.
Speaker 1: They're taking that obsession with fragrance to a whole other level.
Speaker 1: And this applies to both teenage boys, teenage girls, young men,
Speaker 1: young women. And apparently TikTok is really key to what
Speaker 1: happened here during the lockdown period of the pandemic. People
Speaker 1: turn to TikTok for fragrance content. Now, Holly, you said
Speaker 1: something interesting, which is, when you used to work in
Speaker 1: women's magazines, this was a real dilemma for you.
Speaker 2: So it's really interesting that fragrance has become so enormous
Speaker 2: on social media because this might be news to the
Speaker 2: gooners amongst us. But you can't smell social media. You
Speaker 2: can't smell your phone. And the thing is is that
Speaker 2: when I worked in women's mags, you were always having
Speaker 2: to write fragrance stories because there are a lot of
Speaker 2: fragrance advertisers and it is so hard to make them
Speaker 2: a interesting or be described the smell.
Speaker 3: It's like describing the taste of wine.
Speaker 2: It is, and I still I don't get it, Like
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen I love perfume. I
Speaker 2: love it. I've never seen an ad for it and thought, hmm,
Speaker 2: because I'm like, I need to smell it, I need
Speaker 2: an IRL experience. But that is not what this generation
Speaker 2: is experiencing. Because you've already mentioned this, but boys have
Speaker 2: been really leading this. A lot of parents of teenage
Speaker 2: boys will say that they have a fragrance wardrobe, which
Speaker 2: is not a thing that was happening. And they came
Speaker 2: for our serums, these pesky children. They came for our serums,
Speaker 2: and they came for our face masks, and they're coming
Speaker 2: for our expensive sense.
Speaker 1: And the experts do have a theory for this as
Speaker 1: to why this started happening during COVID and also on TikTok,
Speaker 1: and they say that it's about punctuating your day with
Speaker 1: points of difference, because it's really hard these days to
Speaker 1: tell what time of day it is because we're always
Speaker 1: just looking at our phone screen. And so this theory
Speaker 1: goes that people use fragrance to kind of tell themselves, Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going out to a party now, Oh I'm going
Speaker 1: to work now, and they use the fragrance to sort
Speaker 1: of delineate their day.
Speaker 3: COVID. I remember one of the first things I did
Speaker 3: was by really expensive fragrance candle, and it was about
Speaker 3: into that a moment of jaw. And we've talked about
Speaker 3: a lipstick effect before, which is that when cost of
Speaker 3: living is high, you get little things that bring you joy.
Speaker 3: What's interesting here is that this is a two hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty dollars perfume. It is not unusual. And what
Speaker 3: they're finding is that it's not parents just handing over money.
Speaker 3: It is a lot of teenagers with their first job,
Speaker 3: saving for months and months for presents.
Speaker 1: So why do you think they love fragrance? Do you
Speaker 1: think that theory of like defining times of day makes
Speaker 1: sense or is it something else?
Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's also about self expression and a
Speaker 3: marker of identity. And I wonder if the other part
Speaker 3: of the story is something to do with hygiene. So
Speaker 3: we know that deodorant didn't even exist until like the
Speaker 3: early twentieth century, and they say that body odor was
Speaker 3: invented when they had a solution to it, right, so
Speaker 3: our nose has actually changed what we could smell. Then
Speaker 3: it was popularized kind of mid twentieth century. Then fragrances
Speaker 3: have come in and now literally every lotion I care
Speaker 3: so much what my washing powder smells like all that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff, haircare. All of that is about our
Speaker 3: our noses, like almost evolving to be more sensitive that
Speaker 3: our standard for smell is skyrocketing. Because that's what I
Speaker 3: thought when I looked at these ads, I went, Oh,
Speaker 3: you're creating new problems, Like I didn't know that I
Speaker 3: needed to deodorize my back. I didn't know there was
Speaker 3: an issue there.
Speaker 2: The unisex nature of this is interesting in that way too,
Speaker 2: because famously it used to be that teenage boys were smelly, right,
Speaker 2: that is the stereotype. Think about every stereotype of teenage
Speaker 2: boys being smelly. Teenage boys bedrooms are smelly, their clothes
Speaker 2: are smelly, their shoes are smelly. And I think that
Speaker 2: maybe the marketing, in the same way that they've been
Speaker 2: making women feel kind of disgusted by themselves and their
Speaker 2: own natural bodily secretions for a long time now, we've
Speaker 2: managed to also convince the boys of that. We've democratized
Speaker 2: and spread out the disgust involved there, which is not
Speaker 2: a bad thing necessarily, because there was some truth to
Speaker 2: the fact that boys were smelly. But what's also interesting
Speaker 2: is that as the fragrance of everything has climbed. There's
Speaker 2: also like a status involved in rejecting it. I've had
Speaker 2: before people arranging to come into a podcast interview request
Speaker 2: that I wear no perfume and that the producer wears
Speaker 2: no perfume, and that no one they'll have anything to
Speaker 2: do with has any artificial sense on them, because it's
Speaker 2: become kind of well, for a start, we know that
Speaker 2: as your hormone shift, your reactions to smells can and
Speaker 2: some people have migraines that are triggered by artificial sense,
Speaker 2: they have certain allergies. They could say that they can
Speaker 2: cause some kind of hormonal imbalances. The sort of people
Speaker 2: who are very into clean beauty and clean everything are
Speaker 2: obsessed with no fragrance. So it's almost like there's a
Speaker 2: status in rejecting the fact that now everybody smells of
Speaker 2: artificial fragrance.
Speaker 1: But also another interesting fact on that is that one
Speaker 1: of our producers told us that in menopause, your senses
Speaker 1: smell high, and you are interviewing people for me sometimes
Speaker 1: and maybe these are literally women who are finding sense
Speaker 1: increasingly unbearable.
Speaker 2: I think also it's people who might have autoimmunitions. Is
Speaker 2: like there's a lot of people for whom scent is
Speaker 2: very triggering, and also I think there's a way that
Speaker 2: it also exerts a bit of control. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: that about my own personal experience with people who've made
Speaker 2: those requests, but it's almost exerting a bit of control
Speaker 2: around your environment to control how it smells. Because smells
Speaker 2: are triggering in some ways hormonally and health wise, but
Speaker 2: they're also emotionally very triggering.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: We all know how intensely we feel about smelling a perfume.
Speaker 3: That associates with a memory.
Speaker 2: He associates with a memory someone you loved, someone you dated,
Speaker 2: someone you've lost, and how it can transport you. So
Speaker 2: if we're living in this highly fragranced world that you're describing, Jesse,
Speaker 2: it's like we're being assaulted all the time by things
Speaker 2: we can't control. So I think there's a measure of
Speaker 2: like almost status around being able to reject that everything's
Speaker 2: fragrance free. And I don't want any of.
Speaker 3: That in my world, yes, but I also think that
Speaker 3: the market is onto that. So the market is very
Speaker 3: much I have had this when I was in my
Speaker 3: early twenties, and I wondered if it was a life
Speaker 3: stage thing, especially when you're going out, you're going on dates.
Speaker 3: There's something very fun about the fragrance experience and working
Speaker 3: out who you are. And I loved. That's what I
Speaker 3: would spend. I would never buy design or anything except perfume.
Speaker 3: Like I was obsessed, what was your favorite. I really
Speaker 3: liked misty Or, which was quite a like a Florally one.
Speaker 3: I had a Chanel one. Yes, Natalie Popmanway.
Speaker 2: I used to Wemyaki and oh there's a whole era
Speaker 2: of my life. Yeah, I lived the little Animac and
Speaker 2: smell it. I can put myself exactly in that.
Speaker 3: Space, exactly and now they sit there and I can't
Speaker 3: pregnancy change that for me. I cannot. It actually changed
Speaker 3: how every single thing smells. And so I went to
Speaker 3: Esop the other day because I have been told that
Speaker 3: they're not hormonally disruptive.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm not a doctor status, I don't know any of this.
Speaker 3: But the details of the descriptions of that perfume and
Speaker 3: the way it's sold is it won't assault people as
Speaker 3: you walk past. It's your natural smell amplify.
Speaker 1: The best smelling person I ever met was the Melbourne
Speaker 1: based founder of Esop He was a man I met
Speaker 1: through work who I was interviewing, and I will always
Speaker 1: remember that his breath smelled like Lily's.
Speaker 3: Do they sell that product? I want that product.
Speaker 2: Gosh, a massive thank you. Out Loud is that's all
Speaker 2: we've got time for. On today's show. Remember you can
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Speaker 2: and what it could mean for Prince Harry if Prince
Speaker 2: William decides to follow suit.
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Speaker 3: Bye, Momma.
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