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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are talking about on Wednesday, the fifth of November.

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Speaker 1: I am hollywayn Might, I'm Amelia Lester, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And what's made our agenda for today? Well, there's an

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Speaker 2: American man that I had never heard of, but who

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Speaker 2: is in the last couple of days, absolutely everywhere I look,

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Speaker 2: So who is he? And what does he want from us?

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Speaker 2: Amelia knows?

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Speaker 1: And what happened to all the rom coms? Is that

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Speaker 1: why we're bad at dating now? Because there are no

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Speaker 1: rom comms anymore. Bruce Witherspoon has a theory.

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Speaker 3: And the deodorant ad that made me feel very weird?

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Speaker 3: Why is everyone so obsessed with smell? Right?

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Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, four suspects have

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Speaker 1: been arrested in the Louver heist which transfixed the world recently.

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Speaker 1: Did you see the photo?

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Speaker 3: Did I see marg Shotz? I was gonna ask I

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Speaker 3: saw them circular.

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Speaker 2: They were very handsome.

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Speaker 1: They are not the felons in question. They are previous

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Speaker 1: hot felons. Sorry to burst the bubble. It was nice

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Speaker 1: to imagine, no word on the jewels and where they are.

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Speaker 1: But police are definitely playing bad cop with these suspects.

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Speaker 1: They are making clear that they were not exactly criminal masterminds,

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Speaker 1: and they are dismissing them as petty thieves, which I

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Speaker 1: know is a phrase that sounds so much more amazing

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Speaker 1: when said in French. Unfortunately, for the Louver, the people

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Speaker 1: in charge of the security systems, they were also not

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Speaker 1: exactly operating at an elite level. A report in the

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Speaker 1: French newspaper Liberacion do you like that accent? Thank you,

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Speaker 1: reports that the password on the Louver's video surveillance system,

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Speaker 1: the video surveillance system which went down briefly during the heist,

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Speaker 1: that password was Louver. And all I can say is,

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Speaker 1: at least it wasn't password you know.

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Speaker 3: Me My first guess I think that you just know

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Speaker 3: that whoever was made the password got to the you know,

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Speaker 3: come on, what's password? They looked up, they saw the

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Speaker 3: Louver and they went, that'll do it. Now. They did

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Speaker 3: use the capital, which I think was probably part of

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Speaker 3: the rules, but I would bet any money that it

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Speaker 3: has now been changed to love one exam just as

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Speaker 3: a little special character need to make it a bit harder.

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Speaker 2: They need to employ some teenage boys. My son's really

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Speaker 2: good at changing passwords to things I can't guess, like,

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Speaker 2: really good at it. He would never make such a

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Speaker 2: rookie mistake.

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Speaker 3: Politely, though, Billy, I don't want access to any of

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Speaker 3: your You have no money, you have nothing interesting though.

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Speaker 2: He just wants to hide.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like the computers are getting more bossy

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Speaker 1: with us about passwords? Like lately, I've been having this

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Speaker 1: situation where it will just very rudely reject the password

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Speaker 1: that I have been using for everything for the last

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Speaker 1: six years of my life, and it says, oh, it

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Speaker 1: has to have special characters, it has to have more

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Speaker 1: letters in it. I mean, they're so bossy.

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Speaker 3: Does anyone use a special character that isn't an exclamation?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Such a good question.

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Speaker 2: I tell you that you might happen to like the

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Speaker 2: place I'm keeping all my Crown jewels.

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Speaker 3: Recently, I was tapped on the shoulder and told Jesse

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Speaker 3: there's been a data breach and you are the only

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Speaker 3: one in the whole company, And they said, you've got

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Speaker 3: to change your password, and probably if you know, if

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Speaker 3: you've used that password for another account, I would change it.

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Speaker 3: Four hours later, I was like, going through every account,

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Speaker 3: how do I change it slightly so that I am

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Speaker 3: not in a situation like this?

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Speaker 2: Love, There's a man who is suddenly all over my

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Speaker 2: Instagram and not only mine. To give you a little

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes glimpse into the way out loud works,

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Speaker 2: our friend Emily Vernham jumped into our slack channel, which

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Speaker 2: is where we like put all our links for things

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Speaker 2: we want to discuss, and then we whittled them down,

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Speaker 2: and she had written basic bitch news pitch. This sexy

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Speaker 2: politician is all over my social feeds. What does he

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Speaker 2: want from me? She was talking about Zoran Ma Danni,

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Speaker 2: the man who is suddenly all over my feeds too,

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Speaker 2: along with his unofficial theme song which I'm about to

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Speaker 2: play you.

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Speaker 4: The name is mom Dannie M.

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Speaker 1: The name is.

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Speaker 2: Mom Dannie M.

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Speaker 4: You should learn how to say it M.

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Speaker 2: He should learn how to say it.

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Speaker 3: Is that his voice so he's actually singing that.

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Speaker 2: What he did is he said it at a debate

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Speaker 2: where his opponent kept like mispronouncing his name and mispronouncing

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Speaker 2: his name. So he said it, and he said, and

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Speaker 2: you should learn how to say it. Because he was

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Speaker 2: about to say, because I'm going to be your mayor,

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Speaker 2: and he pulled himself back from the edge, and then

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Speaker 2: they've taken it and put it on honestly the ICONICYI Anyway,

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Speaker 2: the reason I know all this when I literally had

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Speaker 2: never seen this man before the last forty eight hours,

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Speaker 2: it's because of the invasion of my internet. Emilia Lester,

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Speaker 2: you know who he is. Tell us about Zorah mum

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Speaker 2: Dani and why we all need to know.

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Speaker 1: So by the time you're listening to this out lauders,

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Speaker 1: and unless something very unexpected has happened, Zauren mum Danny

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Speaker 1: will be the new mayor of New York City, and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of notable things about him. He is

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Speaker 1: going to be the youngest mayor in over a century.

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Speaker 1: He's thirty four. He will be New York's first Muslim mayor.

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Speaker 1: And he's also excited young people, not just in New

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Speaker 1: York but also across the United States and also the

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Speaker 1: world in a way that we haven't seen since maybe

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama. That's how big it is.

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Speaker 3: Some of the commentary that I saw probably a few

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Speaker 3: months ago actually when he appeared on the scene.

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Speaker 2: Are you cooling, Yeah? I am.

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Speaker 3: I don't know where you've been. But I was saying

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Speaker 3: his I'm going to say a beautiful face, and that

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Speaker 3: caught my attention, and some commentary said, this is the

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Speaker 3: sort of Democrats answer to Trump. This is how you

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Speaker 3: beat Trump. This man, what do they mean by that?

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Speaker 1: I think that we just haven't seen this level of

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Speaker 1: enthusias him in a really long time. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: put a dampener on this and say that New York

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Speaker 1: City is not America. It is very liberal. It's got

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Speaker 1: a very different voting population to the rest of America.

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Speaker 1: And Zoran is a Democratic socialist. He's very left wing,

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Speaker 1: so it's kind of unlikely he's going to take the

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Speaker 1: whole country by storm. But what I've taken away from

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Speaker 1: this is that charisma is still really important, arguably more

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Speaker 1: important than it's ever been for politicians. This man is

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Speaker 1: good looking, he has kind eyes, He is great on

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Speaker 1: social media. Here, just as an example, listen to this

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Speaker 1: ad that he made to play during The Golden Bachelor,

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Speaker 1: and keep in mind that as he's speaking here, he

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Speaker 1: is walking towards the camera holding a rose.

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Speaker 4: You deserve better, You deserve to be able to raise

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Speaker 4: your family. Here, to be safe to travel where you

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Speaker 4: need to free of costs and worry. You deserve someone

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Speaker 4: who as hard as you do, who thinks about you

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Speaker 4: every second of the day. That's the kind of mayor

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Speaker 4: I promised to be New York.

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Speaker 3: Will you accept this Russ paid for by Zoron for NYC.

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Speaker 1: He that completely gets me.

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Speaker 2: Exceptionally good at social media because in the last twenty

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Speaker 2: four hours, when I've done this deep dive, I've seen

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Speaker 2: him do that. I've also seen him do a million

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Speaker 2: kind of questionnaires with influences on the streets of New York.

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Speaker 2: I've seen him at night, I've seen him in the morning.

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Speaker 2: I've seen him like he totally gets the twenty four

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Speaker 2: to seven, always on, jump on a trend's social media stuff, right?

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Speaker 2: Is that a large part of why people are saying

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Speaker 2: this is what you need to be now? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think so. But there are lots of politicians you

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Speaker 1: post a lot on social media and people are not

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Speaker 1: sending like the emoji with the love hearts about them,

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Speaker 1: Like JD Vanntce, the Vice President. He's big on social media.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's like wanting to hear him play

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Speaker 1: The Golden Bachelor anytime soon. I've got a question for

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Speaker 1: the group, because obviously his agenda has really excited a

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Speaker 1: lot of young progressives. We're not going to talk about

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Speaker 1: his policy positions here. The question I want to ask

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Speaker 1: is is charisma just being good looking?

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Speaker 3: No, there's something else. There's this confidence that he has.

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Speaker 3: He's obviously incredibly articulate, but I think that the charisma

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Speaker 3: in this context also comes from being what feels like

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Speaker 3: anti establishment, whether it is or it isn't. He feels

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Speaker 3: like a rebel, which is what probably, you know, the

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Speaker 3: climate in the US wants right now. It's funny though,

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Speaker 3: because it's like, do you need that to be a leader,

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Speaker 3: Because when we look at politicians in Australia charisma. We

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Speaker 3: actually had a conversation about this recently and Jackie Lamby

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Speaker 3: came up where people go, she's got charisma.

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Speaker 2: And I got in a lot of trouble for saying,

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Speaker 2: and I stand by it that Barnaby Joyce has charisma.

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Speaker 3: Well he's a character, isn't he. Yah, And there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of successful politicians in Australia who I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: say have charisma. So I wonder if we are because

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Speaker 3: of the social media age, do politicians need to be

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Speaker 3: creators now, like first and foremost almost influences.

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Speaker 2: They either do or they need some people on their

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Speaker 2: team who they work very closely with and trust very

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Speaker 2: much who do know how to do that. But back

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Speaker 2: to the charisma point, because we had this discussion is

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Speaker 2: charisma just good looking a while ago when we were

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Speaker 2: unpacking that and saying no, because Donald Trump has charisma.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is is if you hate the people

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Speaker 2: whose names I'm saying, then you're saying to your phone

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Speaker 2: right now, no he doesn't, No, he doesn't. But if

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Speaker 2: you ask yourself the question of why in an attention

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Speaker 2: economy we are always looking at these people and listening

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Speaker 2: to these people and talking about these people, it is

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Speaker 2: in part because they have a lot of charisma. And

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about it and thinking that I think

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Speaker 2: maybe what charisma is, and it's a very hard thing

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Speaker 2: to harness, is that you want to watch them and

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Speaker 2: listen to them whatever they're saying, even if you don't agree.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean. Age you hear people say

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Speaker 2: I'd watch that person read the phone book or whatever

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Speaker 2: they say, those kind of things like there are some

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Speaker 2: people who have a watchability and a listenability that it

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Speaker 2: didn't used to matter so much when we didn't filter

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Speaker 2: everything through our phones and basically through video, but now

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Speaker 2: we do. You have got to get attention, and if

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Speaker 2: you are really astley, it's not fair to say dull,

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Speaker 2: because I don't think the opposite of charismatic is dull.

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Speaker 2: I think there are lots of very smart, articulate people

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Speaker 2: who aren't charismatic. But it's like it has to be

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Speaker 2: the thing now to get attention, don't you think, Well.

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Speaker 1: But does it? Because does Anthony Albanesi have charisma? He's

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Speaker 1: very successful as a politician.

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Speaker 2: Very good question, because Jesse, do you think Albanesi has charisma?

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Speaker 3: You know, I saw a glimpse of it recently when

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Speaker 3: he was at a round table with Trump and there

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Speaker 3: was the comment about who made the mean tweet about

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Speaker 3: him and he kind of had this funny look at

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Speaker 3: Kevin Rudd and I saw him deal with that in

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Speaker 3: quite a natural or thing then tick away and I

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Speaker 3: have found some of his appearances there to be charismatic.

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe his personality is part of it.

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Speaker 1: I think that that moment with Trump was so telling

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Speaker 1: because that could have been one of the worst moments

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Speaker 1: of Anthony Albanese's life So high Stakes. A Sky News

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Speaker 1: reporter from Australia wants to stir up some shit and

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Speaker 1: he says to Donald Trump, do you know that the

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Speaker 1: guy that Anthony albanezeis sent to Washington to be your

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Speaker 1: ambassador said terrible things about you? And instead of freaking out,

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Speaker 1: instead of starting to sort of give excuses and sort

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Speaker 1: of hesitate and make explanations up, he just sat there

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Speaker 1: and he grinned, and he seemed to be having a

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Speaker 1: good time. He seemed comfortable in his own skin, and

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Speaker 1: he seemed to be enjoying himself. And I'm starting to

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Speaker 1: wonder if, in this day and age, when the news

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Speaker 1: is so bleak and dark and serious, whether we kind

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Speaker 1: of want politicians who seem to be not hating every moment.

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Speaker 2: That's so interesting you say that, Amili, because when I

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Speaker 2: was doing my mum Dani deep dive today, there are

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Speaker 2: a million pieces on the internet, as I discovered in

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Speaker 2: the last twelve hours, and I'm like, you are quite

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Speaker 2: like today Holly, about the lessons he can teach us

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Speaker 2: all about leadership all across this man, Yes, very much,

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Speaker 2: but this is very interesting. One of the pieces said

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Speaker 2: he has a happy warrior spirit, serious about the fight,

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Speaker 2: light on bitterness, confident that persuasion is still possible. And

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Speaker 2: that is what you were just describing. Then, is this

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Speaker 2: he leans into beef, which I think is something that

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Speaker 2: an older generation. I'm going to generalize enormously, but gen

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Speaker 2: xes don't like that. I don't like that. Right, But

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Speaker 2: he leans into beef, but not in a mean way,

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Speaker 2: in a kind of I'll go to Fox News, I'll

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Speaker 2: talk to my opponents. But he's got a lightness about

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Speaker 2: him as he's dealing with very heavy things. Do we

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Speaker 2: like that?

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Speaker 1: Yes? And let's listen to a clip of when he

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Speaker 1: got asked about something Donald Trump had said about him

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Speaker 1: just recently in the last couple of days.

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Speaker 4: Assemblymen, any response to President Trump saying he's better looking

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Speaker 4: than you?

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Speaker 1: I think we have not.

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Speaker 3: My focus is on the cost of living crass.

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Speaker 1: He just grins, he laughs, and he keeps walking.

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Speaker 2: And he stays on message. This brings us to the

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Speaker 2: thorny issue of whether or not women are allowed to

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Speaker 2: have this kind of charisma and leadership right because Kamala

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Speaker 2: Harris has been everywhere in the last couple of weeks

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Speaker 2: promoting her memoir you know, I played that jaunty tune

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Speaker 2: at the beginning. Remember how hard we all tried to

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Speaker 2: make that happen with Kamala, the dancing videos, bratt and

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Speaker 2: all that stuff, and it just didn't quite work. On

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Speaker 2: the list of most charismatic leaders in the world, there

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Speaker 2: are only two women that I have seen, and to

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Speaker 2: be fair, we have to make it clear that there

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Speaker 2: are far fewer women in leadership roles. We haven't got

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Speaker 2: as many versions of leadership to dissect when it comes

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Speaker 2: to women. But one of them is just Cindra Adun Yeah,

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Speaker 2: no question. Angela Merkle was also on that list, right,

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Speaker 2: two very different kinds of women with very different leadership stuff.

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Speaker 2: Have we figured out what kind of charisma we like

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Speaker 2: in women and why Kamala was deemed to not have it,

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Speaker 2: even though on paper she was very cool, young, you know,

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Speaker 2: like engaged.

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Speaker 3: Some of the analysis I read was that something about

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Speaker 3: this campaign has been incredibly organic, and I think especially

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Speaker 3: gen Z and millennial audiences can see straight through strategy,

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Speaker 3: so they can really see Harris. When you look back

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Speaker 3: at her campaign, there were parts of it that felt

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Speaker 3: so forced because they knew they had to harness the

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Speaker 3: you know, young people vote, and they went ran really

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Speaker 3: hard at TikTok and they wanted, you know, lots of

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Speaker 3: people to come out and endorse her, and some of

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Speaker 3: that felt a bit contrived, I think, whereas this just

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Speaker 3: has seemed and maybe it's because he's had a longer

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Speaker 3: run up. I think that probably has a lot to

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Speaker 3: answer for. But every YouTube channel, to something on Twitch,

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Speaker 3: to something on blah, like he's not just doing call

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Speaker 3: her daddy, He's not even doing that, he's there, does

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Speaker 3: seem to be something more organic about his identity on

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Speaker 3: sorche So, if you've.

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Speaker 2: Got a charismatic candidate, was we discussed you go your

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Speaker 2: charismatic people like to watch you. Let's put you everywhere

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Speaker 2: we can where people can watch you do stuff.

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Speaker 1: The thing that concerns me is that we're sort of

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Speaker 1: coalescing around a twenty twenty five definition of charisma, which

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Speaker 1: says that you have to be a happy warrior. You

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Speaker 1: have to look like you're having fun, you have to

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Speaker 1: be natural, you have to be quote unquote authentic and hot.

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Speaker 2: Ideally not necessarily, but it helps.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And what concerns me is that women are not

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Speaker 1: granted permission to be jocular happy warriors, casual whatever, like

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Speaker 1: go with the flow. In fact, Camera and Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: both were criticized for guess what, they're laugh They're not

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Speaker 1: even allowed to laugh for a Zoran is always laughing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And what does that mean for women in the public eye?

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Speaker 3: And the way that he is also afforded grace when

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Speaker 3: it comes to conflict, which women are. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: you learnt into conflict as a woman, then you would

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Speaker 3: be called a bitch. So the difficulty with charisma is

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Speaker 3: that in defining it, it's all about a vibe, it's

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Speaker 3: all about a feeling, but it is incredibly gendered. I mean,

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Speaker 3: what's exciting is that this is a man from a

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Speaker 3: diverse background, which.

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Speaker 1: Is in terms of he's an immigrant.

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Speaker 3: He's an immigrant and a Muslim man who looks different

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Speaker 3: to any man that New York has ever seen. So

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Speaker 3: the fact that he has been able to kind of,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, create this cult of personality is really refreshing.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think we can pretend like charisma hasn't

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Speaker 3: historically always been reserved.

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Speaker 2: He has charisma. Ac has bags of charisma.

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Speaker 1: And she's got the happy warrior thing, which is true.

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Speaker 1: Kamala was people said she was a lunatic because she

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Speaker 1: laughed so much.

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Speaker 2: It came up.

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Speaker 1: Again and again, this idea that she almost seemed unhinged.

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Speaker 1: Is there anyone in Australia who's happy warrior? Who's warrior?

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Speaker 3: I think Jackie Lamby. You know, you don't have to

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Speaker 3: agree with all her politics, but she definitely courts attention

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Speaker 3: and I think that that is due to some charisma.

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Speaker 3: But I wonder if you know, maybe the misstep of

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Speaker 3: Harris was that there were a lot of influencers who

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Speaker 3: went and endorsed her. And there's all this controversy about

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Speaker 3: whether we won our celebrities, or our lifestyle influences or

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Speaker 3: our pop culture podcast to tell us who to vote for. Like,

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Speaker 3: that's a question that I still don't think has been answered.

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Speaker 2: I think it's been answered and the answer.

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Speaker 3: No, Okay, So if we don't, I think that this

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Speaker 3: is the next logical step, which is that the politician

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Speaker 3: must become the influence.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's so true in a moment. If we just

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Speaker 2: watched more rom coms, then apparently we'd be better at dating,

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Speaker 2: says the Queen of the rom com Reese Witherspoon. Knows

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Speaker 2: why we're all so bad at dating now it's because

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Speaker 2: of the decline of the romantic common Let's hear her theory.

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Speaker 2: She's talking to my mate Dax Shepherd on Armchair Expert.

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Speaker 5: Do you know how there's been like the past ten years,

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Speaker 5: even I would even say past fifteen years, is decline

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Speaker 5: in like the making of rom coms or like legitimate

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Speaker 5: big movie stars being in rom coms in Blockbuster. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I think it's not just rom com movies. But I

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Speaker 5: also think the rom com television show, the television show

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Speaker 5: that you watched when you were eleven, twelve, and thirteen

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Speaker 5: that made you practice, like imagine and visualized dating skills. Okay,

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Speaker 5: I like that girl. I'm gonna ask her out. Oh

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Speaker 5: what she says?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 5: Okay, Well, my favorite character in the television show did that.

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Speaker 5: Everybody hates Chris and he Chris asked out the hot

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Speaker 5: girl and she said no, But the other girl she

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Speaker 5: really likes him, and he can't tell. Social media started

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Speaker 5: and then we stopped. We started kind of going rom

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Speaker 5: coms are cringey, But it was actually where we learned

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Speaker 5: social dynamics from Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking on the phone, can talk on the phone.

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Speaker 3: Now, No, I don't think any witty.

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Speaker 2: Banter, Yeah, oh, witty banter before we decide if we

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Speaker 2: agree with this or not. She's definitely giving Reese's giving

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Speaker 2: peak gen X nostalgia with this. I am that fuck

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Speaker 2: with who's always throwing in when Harry met Sally references

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Speaker 2: references to my friends when they want dailing advice, and

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Speaker 2: Reese ages us.

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Speaker 3: To start to move on.

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Speaker 2: Jesse, do you agree with this rom com dating theory?

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Speaker 3: Look on the surface. I listened to this clip and went,

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Speaker 3: do I agree with your premise? Because yes, while there

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Speaker 3: has been a decline in Blockbuster, go to the movies,

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Speaker 3: watch when Harry met Sally that experience the summer, I

385
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Speaker 3: turned pretty nobody wants this biggest show to the year, right,

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Speaker 3: And the movie I went to see at the movies

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Speaker 3: this year I think was Bridget Jones. I think I

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Speaker 3: was alone in that.

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Speaker 1: But it's not really a rom com.

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Speaker 2: I know, but and also, having had to suffer through

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Speaker 2: some summer out an pretty no offense to everyone who

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Speaker 2: loves it.

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Speaker 3: There's no common there's a lot of rocks, but nobody

394
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Speaker 3: wants it.

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Speaker 2: I take your point, but that is almost a reaction

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Speaker 2: to the decline of the rom comms, right, because the

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Speaker 2: rom coms declined and now people are trying to bring

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Speaker 2: them back.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and apparently this is a studied phenomenon that in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and three or whatever, the top ten movies

401
00:20:29,994 --> 00:20:32,114
Speaker 3: were just all you couldn't name, and we would have

402
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Speaker 3: seen all of them, all of them that were at

403
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Speaker 3: the box office. Everyone was watching rom coms. And then

404
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Speaker 3: something Happened was.

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Speaker 1: The plot of all of them. Sandra Bullock decides that

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Speaker 1: her career is in everything and falls into Ye was

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Speaker 1: a handsome man almost always.

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Speaker 3: And then there was a Julia Roberts, and there was

409
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Speaker 3: a Hugh Grant, and there was a Kate Hudson, and

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Speaker 3: of course Catherine Heigel was in all of them. She

411
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Speaker 3: was and I enjoyed them. That's what I was going

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Speaker 3: to watch. I don't think we should over romanticize some

413
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Speaker 3: of the tropes in those films that were often fat phobic,

414
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Speaker 3: you know, exclusively hetero, that were about a man pursuing

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Speaker 3: a woman who said no, but he just kept pursuing.

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Speaker 3: Harry Mett Sally was about how manyamen can't be friends.

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Speaker 2: The things I learned from rom coms, I learned that

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Speaker 2: the man I hate on site is the one.

419
00:21:21,034 --> 00:21:25,394
Speaker 3: Yes, you need drama, chaos and emotional pain.

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Speaker 2: I learned there has to be an obstacle, and it

421
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Speaker 2: might be that that man is an absolute asshole, and

422
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Speaker 2: that maybe our marriage was miserable and that he didn't

423
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Speaker 2: support my career and we drank and Ford all the time.

424
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Speaker 2: But we should definitely get back together, because that's what

425
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Speaker 2: happens in sweetheime al Obama.

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Speaker 3: And there might have been a few back and forth

427
00:21:43,514 --> 00:21:47,314
Speaker 3: witty lines, maybe you got three or four, but they

428
00:21:47,394 --> 00:21:49,674
Speaker 3: fell in love after looking at each other and having

429
00:21:49,914 --> 00:21:53,354
Speaker 3: twelve seconds under the set of sheets, Like it wasn't

430
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Speaker 3: really showing us how to fall in love. But I

431
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Speaker 3: think over the last twenty years a few things happened right.

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Speaker 3: The first thing is an economic story, is about blockbusters

433
00:22:02,834 --> 00:22:07,594
Speaker 3: and middle of the road films that are marvel. It's

434
00:22:07,634 --> 00:22:11,513
Speaker 3: not Marvel, we don't make it. The second is feminism

435
00:22:11,594 --> 00:22:15,354
Speaker 3: slash me Too, slash the bestial test. So there was

436
00:22:15,394 --> 00:22:19,793
Speaker 3: this thing of reappraising every movie about whether or not

437
00:22:19,954 --> 00:22:23,954
Speaker 3: it was feminist enough and gender ideals and all of that.

438
00:22:24,914 --> 00:22:27,194
Speaker 3: And then the third thing, and this is where Reese

439
00:22:27,234 --> 00:22:31,073
Speaker 3: is very right, is phones I don't know how you

440
00:22:31,154 --> 00:22:35,834
Speaker 3: tell a dating story in twenty twenty five without phones,

441
00:22:36,274 --> 00:22:38,033
Speaker 3: And I don't want to watch a movie that's just

442
00:22:38,074 --> 00:22:42,034
Speaker 3: about texting and calling and blood. The tension is very

443
00:22:42,074 --> 00:22:46,034
Speaker 3: and the stakes are very hard to play with when

444
00:22:46,074 --> 00:22:47,994
Speaker 3: everyone can be contacted at every month.

445
00:22:48,354 --> 00:22:50,634
Speaker 2: Let's not forget how many works of art we all

446
00:22:50,634 --> 00:22:53,513
Speaker 2: worshiped where basically the premise was I can't get this

447
00:22:53,554 --> 00:22:57,114
Speaker 2: person on the phone. There's a phone ringing in this house.

448
00:22:57,674 --> 00:23:00,034
Speaker 2: I might not have fring it, so they can't solve

449
00:23:00,074 --> 00:23:03,793
Speaker 2: this misunderstanding that might bring us all Londone. Now I

450
00:23:03,794 --> 00:23:06,674
Speaker 2: can get him. I can get him at any time, Amelia.

451
00:23:07,234 --> 00:23:10,554
Speaker 1: Interesting that Reyese mentioned social media. So I agree with

452
00:23:10,594 --> 00:23:13,313
Speaker 1: all those explanations you gave, Jesse, but Reese sort of

453
00:23:13,354 --> 00:23:16,313
Speaker 1: pins it on social media, and I wonder why that is.

454
00:23:16,354 --> 00:23:20,674
Speaker 1: I wonder what makes rom coms antithetical to social media,

455
00:23:20,754 --> 00:23:24,034
Speaker 1: because this is something that I think millennials feel really

456
00:23:24,034 --> 00:23:26,914
Speaker 1: acutely too. Holly, you mentioned jen X, but I'm going

457
00:23:26,994 --> 00:23:29,674
Speaker 1: to point out that Disney films have gone through a

458
00:23:29,834 --> 00:23:33,793
Speaker 1: huge metamorphosis since we were growing up, Jesse. So in

459
00:23:33,834 --> 00:23:37,434
Speaker 1: the nineties and in the early two thousands, the big

460
00:23:37,474 --> 00:23:41,634
Speaker 1: Disney animated movies were always a romance like think of Aladdin,

461
00:23:41,794 --> 00:23:43,794
Speaker 1: think of Beauty and the Beast, think of The Little

462
00:23:43,834 --> 00:23:48,834
Speaker 1: Mermaidtails Milan. They were always a man and a woman, sadly,

463
00:23:49,074 --> 00:23:52,914
Speaker 1: always a heterosexual love story, fall in love and other

464
00:23:52,954 --> 00:23:56,354
Speaker 1: things happened in those movies, true, but they were fundamentally romances.

465
00:23:56,794 --> 00:23:59,594
Speaker 1: And then something happened to Disney Films.

466
00:24:00,194 --> 00:24:05,474
Speaker 3: That noise, that was a ghost. That was Sally Sally,

467
00:24:05,554 --> 00:24:06,874
Speaker 3: missus Disney Films.

468
00:24:08,314 --> 00:24:08,874
Speaker 1: Where's.

469
00:24:11,554 --> 00:24:14,874
Speaker 2: Sorry out louders the ghost just a doubt to that conversation.

470
00:24:15,234 --> 00:24:19,074
Speaker 2: I agree, but she hasn't lost your train of thought.

471
00:24:19,354 --> 00:24:21,874
Speaker 1: She sounded her plaintive. And then something happened in the

472
00:24:21,914 --> 00:24:27,114
Speaker 1: twenty tens and they became more about family trauma and drama.

473
00:24:27,394 --> 00:24:30,234
Speaker 1: Think of Encanto, think of wish and.

474
00:24:30,634 --> 00:24:31,674
Speaker 3: And ste.

475
00:24:32,914 --> 00:24:36,513
Speaker 1: Film that is a film about family trauma. So this

476
00:24:36,674 --> 00:24:38,754
Speaker 1: is not my point. This is actually a point made

477
00:24:38,754 --> 00:24:41,194
Speaker 1: by the New York Times columnist Rosstout that he thinks

478
00:24:41,234 --> 00:24:43,754
Speaker 1: that's a bad thing. He thinks that in moving away

479
00:24:44,354 --> 00:24:47,754
Speaker 1: from the glorification of the love story is the ultimate story,

480
00:24:47,834 --> 00:24:51,954
Speaker 1: we have lost an ability to build more meaningful relationships

481
00:24:51,954 --> 00:24:54,554
Speaker 1: with each other. He points to the fact that surveys

482
00:24:54,554 --> 00:24:57,274
Speaker 1: show now that parents think that what is most important

483
00:24:57,274 --> 00:25:00,593
Speaker 1: for their kids is career satisfaction and financial security, not

484
00:25:00,874 --> 00:25:03,634
Speaker 1: finding someone to love. And in the nineteen nineties, those

485
00:25:03,634 --> 00:25:06,914
Speaker 1: survey results were flipped. We have seen the results of

486
00:25:06,954 --> 00:25:09,914
Speaker 1: the deprioritization of love and it is kind of sad.

487
00:25:09,954 --> 00:25:11,154
Speaker 1: I gotta admit it is.

488
00:25:11,194 --> 00:25:14,434
Speaker 3: And it's chicken her egg, right. It's like, were we

489
00:25:14,514 --> 00:25:17,354
Speaker 3: deprioritizing it and therefore we wanted it less from our

490
00:25:17,354 --> 00:25:20,314
Speaker 3: films because we found it was just out of step

491
00:25:20,354 --> 00:25:24,033
Speaker 3: with our culture, or did our films and movies in

492
00:25:24,074 --> 00:25:27,234
Speaker 3: pop culture kind of shape that because the idea that

493
00:25:27,234 --> 00:25:30,794
Speaker 3: that's all you needed to be complete was never true.

494
00:25:30,874 --> 00:25:32,234
Speaker 3: There were a lot of things that told us that

495
00:25:32,394 --> 00:25:36,674
Speaker 3: weren't true. But there's something awfully nihilistic when you look

496
00:25:36,714 --> 00:25:39,074
Speaker 3: at the most watched Netflix shows of the year. I

497
00:25:39,114 --> 00:25:40,874
Speaker 3: was like, surely I'm going to find some rom comms

498
00:25:40,994 --> 00:25:44,034
Speaker 3: and nobody wants this was on it, But the rest

499
00:25:44,634 --> 00:25:46,154
Speaker 3: was incredibly dark.

500
00:25:46,394 --> 00:25:49,154
Speaker 2: I know why Reese brought up social media, right, it's

501
00:25:49,234 --> 00:25:51,634
Speaker 2: to do with the cringe, because you know how the

502
00:25:51,714 --> 00:25:55,794
Speaker 2: example that she used was ask the girl out right.

503
00:25:55,914 --> 00:25:59,634
Speaker 2: Every high school romance movie, most rom comms especially if

504
00:25:59,634 --> 00:26:02,394
Speaker 2: they're set in a younger environment, are like, you've got

505
00:26:02,394 --> 00:26:05,194
Speaker 2: to ask somebody out, walk up to them, get all

506
00:26:05,234 --> 00:26:09,674
Speaker 2: your nerve together, ask the man. That is not a thing.

507
00:26:10,394 --> 00:26:13,034
Speaker 2: It is not a thing. Like in young people's world,

508
00:26:13,234 --> 00:26:16,594
Speaker 2: what do you mean? I mean that between dating apps

509
00:26:16,594 --> 00:26:19,754
Speaker 2: and social media and snapchat and messaging and all those things,

510
00:26:20,034 --> 00:26:21,874
Speaker 2: no one is walking up to the hot girl at

511
00:26:21,874 --> 00:26:23,834
Speaker 2: school and saying you want to go to prom with me.

512
00:26:24,074 --> 00:26:27,074
Speaker 2: That is not happening. So I think that what Reese

513
00:26:27,434 --> 00:26:30,474
Speaker 2: means when she was saying, like using that as an example,

514
00:26:30,754 --> 00:26:33,874
Speaker 2: it's like you were all just talking about the tropes

515
00:26:33,914 --> 00:26:36,154
Speaker 2: we grew up with that may or may not have

516
00:26:36,194 --> 00:26:38,834
Speaker 2: been helpful, and how we've all got to you know,

517
00:26:38,954 --> 00:26:41,994
Speaker 2: politically correct or whatever. I would point though we talked

518
00:26:42,034 --> 00:26:43,594
Speaker 2: about this on the show the other day, that there's

519
00:26:43,634 --> 00:26:47,194
Speaker 2: this deep satisfaction for romance that's coming from books, like

520
00:26:47,354 --> 00:26:51,314
Speaker 2: those romance books are going off. But back to what

521
00:26:51,354 --> 00:26:54,474
Speaker 2: the kids are doing when we were watching rom comy

522
00:26:54,634 --> 00:26:57,794
Speaker 2: kind of shows. They're watching everything on social and there

523
00:26:57,834 --> 00:27:00,674
Speaker 2: is no way they would subject themselves to the cringe

524
00:27:00,914 --> 00:27:02,874
Speaker 2: of walking up to someone and asking them out. So

525
00:27:02,954 --> 00:27:05,194
Speaker 2: Reese is saying, how are they learning how to deal

526
00:27:05,194 --> 00:27:07,754
Speaker 2: with rejection? How are they learning? And that yes, that

527
00:27:07,954 --> 00:27:09,994
Speaker 2: one that you know, I want to ask Amelia out.

528
00:27:10,234 --> 00:27:12,033
Speaker 2: Amelia doesn't want to go out with me, but guess what,

529
00:27:12,114 --> 00:27:14,114
Speaker 2: Jesse is just looking at me with these big puppy

530
00:27:14,154 --> 00:27:16,594
Speaker 2: dog guys going but Holly, ask me, ask me, you know,

531
00:27:17,194 --> 00:27:19,834
Speaker 2: that's what she said. That's all lost and how and

532
00:27:20,034 --> 00:27:21,114
Speaker 2: how people.

533
00:27:20,994 --> 00:27:24,634
Speaker 1: Know that the way to be your hottest self is

534
00:27:24,674 --> 00:27:27,634
Speaker 1: to simply take your glasses off and pull down your hair.

535
00:27:27,954 --> 00:27:30,914
Speaker 2: I'm concerned and that always the hot one is mean

536
00:27:30,994 --> 00:27:33,553
Speaker 2: and always the plain one is nice, Like, how are

537
00:27:33,594 --> 00:27:35,234
Speaker 2: they not learning these tropes?

538
00:27:35,354 --> 00:27:37,793
Speaker 3: There was another point about social media that made me

539
00:27:37,874 --> 00:27:40,754
Speaker 3: think that it's raised the monoculture.

540
00:27:40,834 --> 00:27:40,994
Speaker 1: Right.

541
00:27:41,074 --> 00:27:43,554
Speaker 3: So the idea is that when people went and saw

542
00:27:43,594 --> 00:27:46,474
Speaker 3: the traditional nineties rom com, that actually men and women

543
00:27:46,474 --> 00:27:49,154
Speaker 3: were going together, and that they were sitting in a cinema,

544
00:27:49,194 --> 00:27:52,273
Speaker 3: and that it was a defining moment date movies. It

545
00:27:52,314 --> 00:27:57,434
Speaker 3: was a date movie. Now there's this idea that men

546
00:27:57,474 --> 00:28:00,634
Speaker 3: are over here watching forty thousand hours of porn and

547
00:28:00,714 --> 00:28:03,434
Speaker 3: women are over here maybe watching the summer I turn.

548
00:28:03,314 --> 00:28:05,434
Speaker 2: Pretty, or reading their fairy books.

549
00:28:05,034 --> 00:28:07,994
Speaker 3: And then they turn up on a date and there's an.

550
00:28:07,914 --> 00:28:09,754
Speaker 1: Issue that is so sad.

551
00:28:10,834 --> 00:28:12,714
Speaker 2: Although I don't know, there were lots of men going

552
00:28:12,794 --> 00:28:15,634
Speaker 2: to see maybe when Harry met Sally and those ones. Yes,

553
00:28:15,714 --> 00:28:17,954
Speaker 2: although the stories were heterosexual, they were kind of often

554
00:28:17,954 --> 00:28:20,794
Speaker 2: told from both perspectives. Yes, Sleepless in Seattle, when Harry

555
00:28:20,794 --> 00:28:23,194
Speaker 2: met Sally, those really classically even like you've got male

556
00:28:23,354 --> 00:28:26,394
Speaker 2: or whatever, they were told from the male and female perspective.

557
00:28:26,474 --> 00:28:28,754
Speaker 3: Then what happened I was reading this analysis that said,

558
00:28:28,754 --> 00:28:31,394
Speaker 3: then what happened was the story became about men dating

559
00:28:31,554 --> 00:28:33,634
Speaker 3: over here. So even if you think about like a

560
00:28:34,434 --> 00:28:35,834
Speaker 3: knocked up or like.

561
00:28:35,834 --> 00:28:38,954
Speaker 2: Oh remember that, and when it was always something possibly

562
00:28:39,474 --> 00:28:42,074
Speaker 2: hot girl doing like a cheerleading dance thing in her

563
00:28:42,154 --> 00:28:44,234
Speaker 2: undies and this schlubby guy was like.

564
00:28:44,194 --> 00:28:45,434
Speaker 1: She likes me like that.

565
00:28:45,594 --> 00:28:47,394
Speaker 3: And then there was sex in the city. So women

566
00:28:47,394 --> 00:28:49,354
Speaker 3: were talking to women, men were talking to men, And

567
00:28:49,394 --> 00:28:51,714
Speaker 3: now there's not a place that we talk about both.

568
00:28:52,114 --> 00:28:56,074
Speaker 3: And so there's this like we're speaking different languages on dates,

569
00:28:56,194 --> 00:28:58,394
Speaker 3: which I think is an interesting theory.

570
00:28:58,714 --> 00:29:00,314
Speaker 1: And I hate to bring this up, but the other

571
00:29:00,474 --> 00:29:02,994
Speaker 1: story that made me think about this this week was

572
00:29:03,034 --> 00:29:07,474
Speaker 1: did you hear about the story about gooning? No, I'm

573
00:29:07,514 --> 00:29:09,794
Speaker 1: sorry but I need to tell you about this trend.

574
00:29:10,154 --> 00:29:13,634
Speaker 1: Apparently there is a trend amongst some young men online

575
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:16,794
Speaker 1: to masturbate for hours on end to the point where

576
00:29:16,794 --> 00:29:20,474
Speaker 1: they enter a hallucinatory state. Now that's not very wrong,

577
00:29:20,594 --> 00:29:21,394
Speaker 1: calm friendly.

578
00:29:22,514 --> 00:29:25,354
Speaker 2: That wasn't in any of the movie was.

579
00:29:25,274 --> 00:29:28,354
Speaker 3: Talking in the analysis I read, it said when Harry

580
00:29:28,354 --> 00:29:31,554
Speaker 3: met Sally was about coming together, and now a lot

581
00:29:31,554 --> 00:29:34,554
Speaker 3: of what we consume is about coming alone. And I

582
00:29:34,594 --> 00:29:38,794
Speaker 3: was like, Oh, saddest ship I've ever read.

583
00:29:40,194 --> 00:29:42,394
Speaker 1: Come come back to us in a rom com. I

584
00:29:42,434 --> 00:29:44,754
Speaker 1: will gladly go and see you give up your high

585
00:29:44,754 --> 00:29:47,274
Speaker 1: powered legal career for a man with a truck in

586
00:29:47,354 --> 00:29:48,434
Speaker 1: Alabama once.

587
00:29:48,274 --> 00:29:54,074
Speaker 3: Again, legally blonde, Sweet Home, Alabama eleven. We're ready for it.

588
00:29:54,314 --> 00:29:58,994
Speaker 2: Speaking of romance, I need to talk to you about

589
00:29:59,034 --> 00:30:02,314
Speaker 2: some of the weirdest shit I've seen them the internet lately,

590
00:30:02,354 --> 00:30:03,994
Speaker 2: and I cannot stop thinking about it.

591
00:30:03,994 --> 00:30:04,874
Speaker 1: It's not about groooning.

592
00:30:05,154 --> 00:30:08,074
Speaker 2: It's definitely not about that. I wish I didn't know that.

593
00:30:09,594 --> 00:30:11,554
Speaker 2: In the file of things I wish I didn't know

594
00:30:13,154 --> 00:30:16,554
Speaker 2: I saw on substack this week, and look this story

595
00:30:16,594 --> 00:30:18,554
Speaker 2: I'm about to tell you. It's a quick one, but

596
00:30:18,794 --> 00:30:21,394
Speaker 2: it illustrates how hard. People are trying to get attention

597
00:30:21,554 --> 00:30:25,554
Speaker 2: on substack and other social media and I get it again.

598
00:30:25,674 --> 00:30:27,914
Speaker 2: I've got a substack out loud as sign ups, so

599
00:30:27,914 --> 00:30:29,994
Speaker 2: I don't have to go on these leaks, please my God.

600
00:30:30,114 --> 00:30:34,994
Speaker 2: And anyway, I saw a performance artist called Harriet Richardson

601
00:30:35,114 --> 00:30:37,954
Speaker 2: had just got a new tattoo, a list of names

602
00:30:38,234 --> 00:30:42,034
Speaker 2: on her torso like a nice cursive font, very attractive tour.

603
00:30:42,154 --> 00:30:45,714
Speaker 2: So the list of names are of the mothers of

604
00:30:45,754 --> 00:30:48,114
Speaker 2: the men that she has slept with in her life.

605
00:30:48,154 --> 00:30:49,554
Speaker 3: This is why we don't have rom coms.

606
00:30:50,634 --> 00:30:53,714
Speaker 2: There are fourteen of them. They look very artistic. The

607
00:30:53,794 --> 00:30:57,114
Speaker 2: name of Vicky, Dawn, Linda, Diane, Maureen, like I just

608
00:30:57,474 --> 00:31:03,034
Speaker 2: there also such great can you explain why? So she

609
00:31:03,194 --> 00:31:05,274
Speaker 2: said that she thinks that sex is a very important thing.

610
00:31:05,314 --> 00:31:08,474
Speaker 2: So some of the men who's other's names are tattooed

611
00:31:08,474 --> 00:31:10,234
Speaker 2: on her body were one night stands, and some of

612
00:31:10,274 --> 00:31:12,914
Speaker 2: them were really serious relationships that lasted years. And she

613
00:31:12,954 --> 00:31:16,554
Speaker 2: says this is all of similar importance because this is

614
00:31:16,594 --> 00:31:19,714
Speaker 2: penetrative sex that she's being very specific about. It is

615
00:31:19,754 --> 00:31:22,994
Speaker 2: such an intimate act that she wanted this act of intimacy.

616
00:31:22,994 --> 00:31:25,554
Speaker 1: I'm glad she's drawing boundaries like that it's important.

617
00:31:25,874 --> 00:31:32,594
Speaker 2: I found myself getting really indignant about this, my fictionalized

618
00:31:32,674 --> 00:31:35,914
Speaker 2: adult son who has decided to sleep with an attractive

619
00:31:35,954 --> 00:31:39,954
Speaker 2: performance artist on the New York or London where Harriot's from.

620
00:31:40,034 --> 00:31:43,994
Speaker 2: And then suddenly, my name is her body and it's

621
00:31:44,034 --> 00:31:46,834
Speaker 2: got nothing to do. He chose to put his penis.

622
00:31:46,874 --> 00:31:50,114
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen Holly this worked up about anything.

623
00:31:49,914 --> 00:31:56,834
Speaker 3: She doesn't understand art. I read this and went, I actually, reckon,

624
00:31:56,874 --> 00:31:59,234
Speaker 3: this is really clever. I think it's about the Madonna

625
00:31:59,354 --> 00:32:02,834
Speaker 3: ware dichotomy. Of course it is, And it's about how

626
00:32:03,394 --> 00:32:06,434
Speaker 3: the name of a mum for a man is sacred.

627
00:32:06,674 --> 00:32:09,314
Speaker 3: It's like she is permanent. She is the most important

628
00:32:09,354 --> 00:32:11,954
Speaker 3: person in their lives, but they don't see the woman

629
00:32:11,994 --> 00:32:15,154
Speaker 3: that they're having this transactional sex with where they walk

630
00:32:15,154 --> 00:32:16,834
Speaker 3: away and she's forgettable and blah blah blah.

631
00:32:17,394 --> 00:32:18,434
Speaker 2: Different species.

632
00:32:18,794 --> 00:32:22,074
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like a different species. And so she,

633
00:32:22,634 --> 00:32:24,754
Speaker 3: I think, is trying to make a statement by having

634
00:32:24,834 --> 00:32:28,394
Speaker 3: their names there. That's like, I am of the same stuff.

635
00:32:28,474 --> 00:32:31,274
Speaker 2: To find out the names of these men, some of

636
00:32:31,274 --> 00:32:32,954
Speaker 2: them she knew, like the ones she'd been related with.

637
00:32:33,074 --> 00:32:36,674
Speaker 2: She actually had a private investigator in London to go

638
00:32:36,754 --> 00:32:38,314
Speaker 2: and find two of them out, which she said she

639
00:32:38,354 --> 00:32:41,154
Speaker 2: found very satisfying because she didn't know them and she

640
00:32:41,234 --> 00:32:44,474
Speaker 2: wanted to be accurate because it was so important accurate.

641
00:32:44,594 --> 00:32:46,594
Speaker 1: I've been trying to figure out ever since you told

642
00:32:46,634 --> 00:32:50,154
Speaker 1: me about the story why it makes you so upset,

643
00:32:50,434 --> 00:32:53,114
Speaker 1: because you don't often get upset about things. You're very

644
00:32:53,154 --> 00:32:56,594
Speaker 1: sexually liberated, you are unmarried, So I'm like, what is

645
00:32:56,634 --> 00:32:58,594
Speaker 1: going on? Why is Holly so upset? And I think

646
00:32:58,594 --> 00:33:02,394
Speaker 1: it's because it's sort of a perfect parental storm because

647
00:33:02,394 --> 00:33:06,154
Speaker 1: it involves tattoos, which you're just worried about for your kids,

648
00:33:06,194 --> 00:33:07,394
Speaker 1: like are they going to go out and get a

649
00:33:07,434 --> 00:33:11,674
Speaker 1: tattoo one night? And it involves sleeping with people, and

650
00:33:11,714 --> 00:33:14,594
Speaker 1: it involves thinking about your children sleeping with people.

651
00:33:14,754 --> 00:33:19,154
Speaker 3: So it's just me, yes, yes, exactly.

652
00:33:18,914 --> 00:33:20,954
Speaker 2: Have anything to do with this, I reckon me. I

653
00:33:20,994 --> 00:33:23,634
Speaker 2: would love this. She would love it because she would

654
00:33:23,674 --> 00:33:26,994
Speaker 2: like to be involved. I don't mean that's actually that's weird, rabbit.

655
00:33:27,154 --> 00:33:28,314
Speaker 2: She likes to be involved.

656
00:33:28,354 --> 00:33:31,954
Speaker 3: Generally, she's got main character energy and she's like, I

657
00:33:31,954 --> 00:33:36,834
Speaker 3: would just like to be acknowledged. After the break the

658
00:33:36,874 --> 00:33:40,954
Speaker 3: deodorant you're meant to put literally everywhere smell maxing frag

659
00:33:40,994 --> 00:33:44,594
Speaker 3: heads perfumesta. Why is the culture so invested in us

660
00:33:44,594 --> 00:33:53,994
Speaker 3: smelling really really good frag heads smell maxing? Why is

661
00:33:54,034 --> 00:33:56,754
Speaker 3: smell the sense of the moment? First, I want to

662
00:33:56,754 --> 00:33:59,354
Speaker 3: tell you about a weird experience I had yesterday because

663
00:33:59,434 --> 00:34:02,834
Speaker 3: I got off the train and I was going up

664
00:34:02,994 --> 00:34:06,274
Speaker 3: the escalator and everyone around me was pointing and like

665
00:34:06,314 --> 00:34:08,834
Speaker 3: kind of commenting it this ad on the walls. It

666
00:34:08,913 --> 00:34:11,074
Speaker 3: was like we were entombed in an ad. It was

667
00:34:11,154 --> 00:34:13,754
Speaker 3: just everywhere, right, and it was a deodorant ad, but

668
00:34:13,873 --> 00:34:18,674
Speaker 3: there were pictures of bottoms and feet and the word

669
00:34:18,794 --> 00:34:22,873
Speaker 3: balls was written in really big light, just stamped there,

670
00:34:23,354 --> 00:34:27,234
Speaker 3: and it was about this neur Ez owner deodorant which

671
00:34:27,554 --> 00:34:32,194
Speaker 3: is meant to be used everywhere. It says stay fresh everywhere,

672
00:34:32,514 --> 00:34:36,354
Speaker 3: spray or is it both? There are both. So this

673
00:34:36,474 --> 00:34:38,994
Speaker 3: has been accompanied by a Martha Stewart ad where she

674
00:34:39,114 --> 00:34:42,514
Speaker 3: talks you through deodorizing your thighs. That's where she starts

675
00:34:42,554 --> 00:34:47,474
Speaker 3: matha feet, breasts, and then she clarifies that yes, you

676
00:34:47,514 --> 00:34:50,913
Speaker 3: can use it down under right, and the product might

677
00:34:50,954 --> 00:34:54,634
Speaker 3: be amazing. It's important to flag here that on our podcast,

678
00:34:54,834 --> 00:34:57,634
Speaker 3: well you will have heard as well as many doctors

679
00:34:57,874 --> 00:35:02,754
Speaker 3: say pH levels vagina, self cleaning before we go spraying,

680
00:35:03,114 --> 00:35:04,314
Speaker 3: putting things, maybe chucking.

681
00:35:04,354 --> 00:35:06,314
Speaker 2: It's like a self cleaning ovem.

682
00:35:06,394 --> 00:35:08,554
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, it's a self cleaning up.

683
00:35:08,594 --> 00:35:10,473
Speaker 1: We're all oven self cleaning, by the way, because I've

684
00:35:10,474 --> 00:35:12,354
Speaker 1: never cleaned out, I've.

685
00:35:12,194 --> 00:35:14,114
Speaker 2: Never had a self cleaning of it, but I just

686
00:35:14,194 --> 00:35:18,634
Speaker 2: pretend that I do. This is similar or.

687
00:35:18,634 --> 00:35:20,954
Speaker 3: I'm interested in It's not how often you clean your ovens,

688
00:35:20,994 --> 00:35:25,354
Speaker 3: but the cultural obsession with smell so body lotions. The

689
00:35:25,434 --> 00:35:28,234
Speaker 3: global fragrance market is the biggest it has ever been

690
00:35:28,274 --> 00:35:34,154
Speaker 3: and still growing. Deodorant market skyrocketing. What is going on here, Amelia,

691
00:35:34,194 --> 00:35:34,714
Speaker 3: what do you reckon?

692
00:35:34,834 --> 00:35:38,034
Speaker 1: Well, as usual, it's gen Z's fault. Yeah, they are

693
00:35:38,194 --> 00:35:41,154
Speaker 1: obsessed with fragrance, and not in the way that Look

694
00:35:41,194 --> 00:35:43,994
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, which sprayed, our impulse body

695
00:35:43,994 --> 00:35:45,754
Speaker 1: spray and we got along with our days.

696
00:35:45,954 --> 00:35:47,114
Speaker 3: Did you have Britney Spears?

697
00:35:47,274 --> 00:35:48,794
Speaker 1: No, I had Spice Skills Limited Edition.

698
00:35:48,954 --> 00:35:49,914
Speaker 2: Oh.

699
00:35:49,994 --> 00:35:53,274
Speaker 1: The difference with gen Z is that they're into high

700
00:35:53,474 --> 00:35:57,674
Speaker 1: end fragrance. They're not just into the impulse And apparently

701
00:35:57,754 --> 00:36:01,274
Speaker 1: eighty three percent of gen Z wears fragrance as often

702
00:36:01,314 --> 00:36:04,754
Speaker 1: as three times a week. Fragrance, not impulse, body spray, fragrance.

703
00:36:05,194 --> 00:36:08,033
Speaker 1: They're taking that obsession with fragrance to a whole other level.

704
00:36:08,074 --> 00:36:10,873
Speaker 1: And this applies to both teenage boys, teenage girls, young men,

705
00:36:10,954 --> 00:36:15,554
Speaker 1: young women. And apparently TikTok is really key to what

706
00:36:15,754 --> 00:36:19,874
Speaker 1: happened here during the lockdown period of the pandemic. People

707
00:36:19,954 --> 00:36:24,154
Speaker 1: turn to TikTok for fragrance content. Now, Holly, you said

708
00:36:24,154 --> 00:36:25,674
Speaker 1: something interesting, which is, when you used to work in

709
00:36:25,714 --> 00:36:28,513
Speaker 1: women's magazines, this was a real dilemma for you.

710
00:36:28,674 --> 00:36:32,034
Speaker 2: So it's really interesting that fragrance has become so enormous

711
00:36:32,074 --> 00:36:34,794
Speaker 2: on social media because this might be news to the

712
00:36:34,914 --> 00:36:38,834
Speaker 2: gooners amongst us. But you can't smell social media. You

713
00:36:38,954 --> 00:36:42,274
Speaker 2: can't smell your phone. And the thing is is that

714
00:36:42,314 --> 00:36:44,314
Speaker 2: when I worked in women's mags, you were always having

715
00:36:44,314 --> 00:36:46,994
Speaker 2: to write fragrance stories because there are a lot of

716
00:36:46,994 --> 00:36:51,433
Speaker 2: fragrance advertisers and it is so hard to make them

717
00:36:51,474 --> 00:36:53,834
Speaker 2: a interesting or be described the smell.

718
00:36:53,874 --> 00:36:55,473
Speaker 3: It's like describing the taste of wine.

719
00:36:55,554 --> 00:36:58,274
Speaker 2: It is, and I still I don't get it, Like

720
00:36:58,634 --> 00:37:02,114
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen I love perfume. I

721
00:37:02,194 --> 00:37:05,114
Speaker 2: love it. I've never seen an ad for it and thought, hmm,

722
00:37:05,234 --> 00:37:07,554
Speaker 2: because I'm like, I need to smell it, I need

723
00:37:07,594 --> 00:37:10,954
Speaker 2: an IRL experience. But that is not what this generation

724
00:37:11,074 --> 00:37:13,554
Speaker 2: is experiencing. Because you've already mentioned this, but boys have

725
00:37:13,634 --> 00:37:16,554
Speaker 2: been really leading this. A lot of parents of teenage

726
00:37:16,554 --> 00:37:20,274
Speaker 2: boys will say that they have a fragrance wardrobe, which

727
00:37:20,314 --> 00:37:23,154
Speaker 2: is not a thing that was happening. And they came

728
00:37:23,194 --> 00:37:26,674
Speaker 2: for our serums, these pesky children. They came for our serums,

729
00:37:26,714 --> 00:37:29,154
Speaker 2: and they came for our face masks, and they're coming

730
00:37:29,154 --> 00:37:30,234
Speaker 2: for our expensive sense.

731
00:37:30,354 --> 00:37:32,473
Speaker 1: And the experts do have a theory for this as

732
00:37:32,554 --> 00:37:35,873
Speaker 1: to why this started happening during COVID and also on TikTok,

733
00:37:35,954 --> 00:37:39,594
Speaker 1: and they say that it's about punctuating your day with

734
00:37:39,754 --> 00:37:43,754
Speaker 1: points of difference, because it's really hard these days to

735
00:37:43,874 --> 00:37:46,074
Speaker 1: tell what time of day it is because we're always

736
00:37:46,154 --> 00:37:48,714
Speaker 1: just looking at our phone screen. And so this theory

737
00:37:48,834 --> 00:37:52,114
Speaker 1: goes that people use fragrance to kind of tell themselves, Oh,

738
00:37:52,114 --> 00:37:54,674
Speaker 1: I'm going out to a party now, Oh I'm going

739
00:37:54,714 --> 00:37:57,154
Speaker 1: to work now, and they use the fragrance to sort

740
00:37:57,154 --> 00:37:58,393
Speaker 1: of delineate their day.

741
00:37:58,714 --> 00:38:00,794
Speaker 3: COVID. I remember one of the first things I did

742
00:38:00,914 --> 00:38:04,794
Speaker 3: was by really expensive fragrance candle, and it was about

743
00:38:05,274 --> 00:38:07,913
Speaker 3: into that a moment of jaw. And we've talked about

744
00:38:07,914 --> 00:38:11,393
Speaker 3: a lipstick effect before, which is that when cost of

745
00:38:11,434 --> 00:38:14,634
Speaker 3: living is high, you get little things that bring you joy.

746
00:38:14,794 --> 00:38:17,914
Speaker 3: What's interesting here is that this is a two hundred

747
00:38:17,914 --> 00:38:20,234
Speaker 3: and fifty dollars perfume. It is not unusual. And what

748
00:38:20,234 --> 00:38:23,234
Speaker 3: they're finding is that it's not parents just handing over money.

749
00:38:23,314 --> 00:38:26,154
Speaker 3: It is a lot of teenagers with their first job,

750
00:38:26,354 --> 00:38:29,634
Speaker 3: saving for months and months for presents.

751
00:38:29,794 --> 00:38:32,474
Speaker 1: So why do you think they love fragrance? Do you

752
00:38:32,474 --> 00:38:35,634
Speaker 1: think that theory of like defining times of day makes

753
00:38:35,634 --> 00:38:36,754
Speaker 1: sense or is it something else?

754
00:38:36,834 --> 00:38:40,314
Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's also about self expression and a

755
00:38:40,474 --> 00:38:44,354
Speaker 3: marker of identity. And I wonder if the other part

756
00:38:44,394 --> 00:38:48,834
Speaker 3: of the story is something to do with hygiene. So

757
00:38:49,714 --> 00:38:52,554
Speaker 3: we know that deodorant didn't even exist until like the

758
00:38:52,594 --> 00:38:55,114
Speaker 3: early twentieth century, and they say that body odor was

759
00:38:55,154 --> 00:38:57,433
Speaker 3: invented when they had a solution to it, right, so

760
00:38:57,514 --> 00:39:00,834
Speaker 3: our nose has actually changed what we could smell. Then

761
00:39:00,874 --> 00:39:04,993
Speaker 3: it was popularized kind of mid twentieth century. Then fragrances

762
00:39:04,994 --> 00:39:08,154
Speaker 3: have come in and now literally every lotion I care

763
00:39:08,314 --> 00:39:11,594
Speaker 3: so much what my washing powder smells like all that

764
00:39:11,674 --> 00:39:14,953
Speaker 3: kind of stuff, haircare. All of that is about our

765
00:39:15,034 --> 00:39:18,154
Speaker 3: our noses, like almost evolving to be more sensitive that

766
00:39:18,234 --> 00:39:21,594
Speaker 3: our standard for smell is skyrocketing. Because that's what I

767
00:39:21,594 --> 00:39:24,234
Speaker 3: thought when I looked at these ads, I went, Oh,

768
00:39:24,314 --> 00:39:27,274
Speaker 3: you're creating new problems, Like I didn't know that I

769
00:39:27,354 --> 00:39:30,594
Speaker 3: needed to deodorize my back. I didn't know there was

770
00:39:30,594 --> 00:39:31,393
Speaker 3: an issue there.

771
00:39:31,594 --> 00:39:34,553
Speaker 2: The unisex nature of this is interesting in that way too,

772
00:39:34,634 --> 00:39:38,473
Speaker 2: because famously it used to be that teenage boys were smelly, right,

773
00:39:38,514 --> 00:39:41,994
Speaker 2: that is the stereotype. Think about every stereotype of teenage

774
00:39:42,034 --> 00:39:44,994
Speaker 2: boys being smelly. Teenage boys bedrooms are smelly, their clothes

775
00:39:44,994 --> 00:39:47,514
Speaker 2: are smelly, their shoes are smelly. And I think that

776
00:39:47,674 --> 00:39:50,354
Speaker 2: maybe the marketing, in the same way that they've been

777
00:39:50,354 --> 00:39:53,074
Speaker 2: making women feel kind of disgusted by themselves and their

778
00:39:53,074 --> 00:39:56,393
Speaker 2: own natural bodily secretions for a long time now, we've

779
00:39:56,394 --> 00:39:59,874
Speaker 2: managed to also convince the boys of that. We've democratized

780
00:39:59,914 --> 00:40:02,913
Speaker 2: and spread out the disgust involved there, which is not

781
00:40:02,994 --> 00:40:06,433
Speaker 2: a bad thing necessarily, because there was some truth to

782
00:40:06,474 --> 00:40:10,913
Speaker 2: the fact that boys were smelly. But what's also interesting

783
00:40:11,074 --> 00:40:14,794
Speaker 2: is that as the fragrance of everything has climbed. There's

784
00:40:14,834 --> 00:40:19,634
Speaker 2: also like a status involved in rejecting it. I've had

785
00:40:19,674 --> 00:40:23,474
Speaker 2: before people arranging to come into a podcast interview request

786
00:40:23,554 --> 00:40:26,234
Speaker 2: that I wear no perfume and that the producer wears

787
00:40:26,274 --> 00:40:28,194
Speaker 2: no perfume, and that no one they'll have anything to

788
00:40:28,234 --> 00:40:31,314
Speaker 2: do with has any artificial sense on them, because it's

789
00:40:31,354 --> 00:40:33,913
Speaker 2: become kind of well, for a start, we know that

790
00:40:34,314 --> 00:40:37,873
Speaker 2: as your hormone shift, your reactions to smells can and

791
00:40:37,914 --> 00:40:40,754
Speaker 2: some people have migraines that are triggered by artificial sense,

792
00:40:40,794 --> 00:40:42,913
Speaker 2: they have certain allergies. They could say that they can

793
00:40:42,994 --> 00:40:46,474
Speaker 2: cause some kind of hormonal imbalances. The sort of people

794
00:40:46,514 --> 00:40:50,354
Speaker 2: who are very into clean beauty and clean everything are

795
00:40:50,394 --> 00:40:53,474
Speaker 2: obsessed with no fragrance. So it's almost like there's a

796
00:40:53,514 --> 00:40:57,594
Speaker 2: status in rejecting the fact that now everybody smells of

797
00:40:57,714 --> 00:40:58,634
Speaker 2: artificial fragrance.

798
00:40:58,714 --> 00:41:01,594
Speaker 1: But also another interesting fact on that is that one

799
00:41:01,634 --> 00:41:06,354
Speaker 1: of our producers told us that in menopause, your senses

800
00:41:06,394 --> 00:41:11,274
Speaker 1: smell high, and you are interviewing people for me sometimes

801
00:41:11,354 --> 00:41:14,914
Speaker 1: and maybe these are literally women who are finding sense

802
00:41:15,194 --> 00:41:16,354
Speaker 1: increasingly unbearable.

803
00:41:16,434 --> 00:41:19,034
Speaker 2: I think also it's people who might have autoimmunitions. Is

804
00:41:19,114 --> 00:41:22,354
Speaker 2: like there's a lot of people for whom scent is

805
00:41:22,554 --> 00:41:26,594
Speaker 2: very triggering, and also I think there's a way that

806
00:41:26,674 --> 00:41:29,274
Speaker 2: it also exerts a bit of control. I'm not saying

807
00:41:29,314 --> 00:41:31,314
Speaker 2: that about my own personal experience with people who've made

808
00:41:31,314 --> 00:41:34,194
Speaker 2: those requests, but it's almost exerting a bit of control

809
00:41:34,234 --> 00:41:37,634
Speaker 2: around your environment to control how it smells. Because smells

810
00:41:37,674 --> 00:41:40,393
Speaker 2: are triggering in some ways hormonally and health wise, but

811
00:41:40,434 --> 00:41:42,394
Speaker 2: they're also emotionally very triggering.

812
00:41:42,474 --> 00:41:42,634
Speaker 1: Right.

813
00:41:42,674 --> 00:41:46,914
Speaker 2: We all know how intensely we feel about smelling a perfume.

814
00:41:46,514 --> 00:41:48,073
Speaker 3: That associates with a memory.

815
00:41:48,434 --> 00:41:51,034
Speaker 2: He associates with a memory someone you loved, someone you dated,

816
00:41:51,074 --> 00:41:54,314
Speaker 2: someone you've lost, and how it can transport you. So

817
00:41:54,754 --> 00:41:58,154
Speaker 2: if we're living in this highly fragranced world that you're describing, Jesse,

818
00:41:58,354 --> 00:42:01,114
Speaker 2: it's like we're being assaulted all the time by things

819
00:42:01,114 --> 00:42:03,114
Speaker 2: we can't control. So I think there's a measure of

820
00:42:03,194 --> 00:42:07,674
Speaker 2: like almost status around being able to reject that everything's

821
00:42:07,714 --> 00:42:09,513
Speaker 2: fragrance free. And I don't want any of.

822
00:42:09,434 --> 00:42:11,594
Speaker 3: That in my world, yes, but I also think that

823
00:42:11,674 --> 00:42:15,554
Speaker 3: the market is onto that. So the market is very

824
00:42:15,674 --> 00:42:17,634
Speaker 3: much I have had this when I was in my

825
00:42:17,674 --> 00:42:19,314
Speaker 3: early twenties, and I wondered if it was a life

826
00:42:19,314 --> 00:42:22,473
Speaker 3: stage thing, especially when you're going out, you're going on dates.

827
00:42:22,514 --> 00:42:27,154
Speaker 3: There's something very fun about the fragrance experience and working

828
00:42:27,154 --> 00:42:29,554
Speaker 3: out who you are. And I loved. That's what I

829
00:42:29,554 --> 00:42:33,194
Speaker 3: would spend. I would never buy design or anything except perfume.

830
00:42:33,274 --> 00:42:36,274
Speaker 3: Like I was obsessed, what was your favorite. I really

831
00:42:36,674 --> 00:42:40,714
Speaker 3: liked misty Or, which was quite a like a Florally one.

832
00:42:40,794 --> 00:42:43,194
Speaker 3: I had a Chanel one. Yes, Natalie Popmanway.

833
00:42:43,194 --> 00:42:46,234
Speaker 2: I used to Wemyaki and oh there's a whole era

834
00:42:46,354 --> 00:42:48,714
Speaker 2: of my life. Yeah, I lived the little Animac and

835
00:42:48,714 --> 00:42:51,034
Speaker 2: smell it. I can put myself exactly in that.

836
00:42:51,034 --> 00:42:53,474
Speaker 3: Space, exactly and now they sit there and I can't

837
00:42:53,514 --> 00:42:57,154
Speaker 3: pregnancy change that for me. I cannot. It actually changed

838
00:42:57,194 --> 00:42:59,714
Speaker 3: how every single thing smells. And so I went to

839
00:43:00,234 --> 00:43:02,393
Speaker 3: Esop the other day because I have been told that

840
00:43:02,434 --> 00:43:03,913
Speaker 3: they're not hormonally disruptive.

841
00:43:03,954 --> 00:43:04,393
Speaker 1: I don't know.

842
00:43:04,474 --> 00:43:06,834
Speaker 3: I'm not a doctor status, I don't know any of this.

843
00:43:06,954 --> 00:43:10,954
Speaker 3: But the details of the descriptions of that perfume and

844
00:43:10,994 --> 00:43:14,393
Speaker 3: the way it's sold is it won't assault people as

845
00:43:14,394 --> 00:43:17,674
Speaker 3: you walk past. It's your natural smell amplify.

846
00:43:18,074 --> 00:43:21,834
Speaker 1: The best smelling person I ever met was the Melbourne

847
00:43:21,954 --> 00:43:24,674
Speaker 1: based founder of Esop He was a man I met

848
00:43:24,714 --> 00:43:27,514
Speaker 1: through work who I was interviewing, and I will always

849
00:43:27,554 --> 00:43:30,314
Speaker 1: remember that his breath smelled like Lily's.

850
00:43:32,114 --> 00:43:33,794
Speaker 3: Do they sell that product? I want that product.

851
00:43:33,914 --> 00:43:37,194
Speaker 2: Gosh, a massive thank you. Out Loud is that's all

852
00:43:37,194 --> 00:43:39,314
Speaker 2: we've got time for. On today's show. Remember you can

853
00:43:39,314 --> 00:43:42,314
Speaker 2: watch us on YouTube if you want to see a crininess.

854
00:43:42,354 --> 00:43:46,314
Speaker 2: We discuss some of the things we discussed today if

855
00:43:46,314 --> 00:43:48,954
Speaker 2: you're looking for something else to listen to. On yesterday's

856
00:43:48,954 --> 00:43:53,154
Speaker 2: subscriber episode, we discussed the fallout from Prince Andrew's banishment

857
00:43:53,394 --> 00:43:55,914
Speaker 2: and what it could mean for Prince Harry if Prince

858
00:43:55,954 --> 00:43:57,794
Speaker 2: William decides to follow suit.

859
00:43:58,234 --> 00:44:01,114
Speaker 1: Okay, if you love out Loud, we also have a

860
00:44:01,194 --> 00:44:03,274
Speaker 1: sister show that I would love for you to come

861
00:44:03,274 --> 00:44:05,834
Speaker 1: and have a listen to. It's called Parenting out Loud.

862
00:44:05,914 --> 00:44:08,794
Speaker 1: It's where we bring you the week in parenting pop culture.

863
00:44:09,474 --> 00:44:12,354
Speaker 1: This week, Kiera Knightley bought one of our hosts to

864
00:44:12,514 --> 00:44:16,194
Speaker 1: tears talking about something that hit way too close to home.

865
00:44:16,754 --> 00:44:18,873
Speaker 1: And if your school group chats are heating up at

866
00:44:18,874 --> 00:44:22,034
Speaker 1: the end of the year, I have some controversial ground

867
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Speaker 1: rules for you. It's the same smart, interesting chat you

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00:44:25,714 --> 00:44:29,314
Speaker 1: get here, just parenting, coded search, parenting out Loud, and

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00:44:29,434 --> 00:44:29,994
Speaker 1: hip follow.

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Speaker 2: You'll love it massive. Thank you also to our fabulous

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Speaker 2: team fail being has put this show together. We're going

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Speaker 2: to be back in your ears tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: Bye, Momma.

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Speaker 2: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which

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Speaker 2: we've recorded this podcast.