WEBVTT - Let Go Of Perfect: Unlock Creativity & Get Stuff Done 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a mom and me a podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mama Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:18.487 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:18.607 --> 0:00:21.247 Hey out Louders, It's me, Jesse, Holly and I got 0:00:21.247 --> 0:00:25.127 together recently to record a special interview for another podcast 0:00:25.127 --> 0:00:27.327 that we have here at Mamma Mia called That's Incredible. 0:00:27.647 --> 0:00:31.807 That's like a co listening podcast for parents and kids, 0:00:32.207 --> 0:00:34.847 and the episode was all about creativity, what our creative 0:00:34.887 --> 0:00:37.807 process was like, how we harness creativity, where we get 0:00:37.807 --> 0:00:41.007 our ideas from, and how we deal with creative burnout, 0:00:41.007 --> 0:00:43.607 which has been a big thing for me lately. It 0:00:43.647 --> 0:00:46.527 was such an interesting chat if I do say to myself, 0:00:46.687 --> 0:01:02.927 we thought we'd share it with you, so enjoy. 0:00:56.207 --> 0:01:00.447 Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of That's Incredible. 0:01:00.607 --> 0:01:03.847 It's all about creativity, and we've got some different hosts today. 0:01:03.887 --> 0:01:06.487 There's me, I'm Holly Wayne Right, I'm Mea Friedman, and 0:01:06.527 --> 0:01:09.207 I'm Jesse Stevens. And we're usually the hosts of Mama 0:01:09.447 --> 0:01:11.567 Are Out Loud, but that's not all we do. We're 0:01:11.567 --> 0:01:14.647 also authors, novelist, journalists, in the case of my talented 0:01:14.687 --> 0:01:18.967 friends here, screenwriters and TV producers. So In short, we've 0:01:19.007 --> 0:01:22.127 all made careers, some of us in some cases quite 0:01:22.127 --> 0:01:25.647 long careers. Now Mia out of creativity, and it's also 0:01:25.727 --> 0:01:26.967 at the core of what we like to do, and 0:01:27.007 --> 0:01:28.687 we're not working. Mia it's a big fan of what 0:01:28.727 --> 0:01:31.207 she calls creative rest. It might be playing with clothes 0:01:31.207 --> 0:01:34.447 for me, I might be growing colorful things. We are 0:01:34.767 --> 0:01:37.887 definitely creative people. Although Jesse is not creative in the kitchen. 0:01:37.967 --> 0:01:39.447 That's a conversation. It's another time. 0:01:39.967 --> 0:01:43.207 The thing is apparently girls often think that they don't 0:01:43.247 --> 0:01:45.607 have permission to be creative. I remember sensing this a 0:01:45.647 --> 0:01:49.247 bit in adolescence. I reckon it disappeared for a season, 0:01:49.287 --> 0:01:51.087 and apparently that's actually proven. 0:01:51.127 --> 0:01:52.167 That is something that happens. 0:01:52.247 --> 0:01:54.887 Is that because it's seen as something for childhood that 0:01:54.887 --> 0:01:55.727 you leave behind. 0:01:56.007 --> 0:01:59.167 I think it's also about playing risk, Like I wonder 0:01:59.247 --> 0:02:00.887 if we become risk averse. 0:02:00.847 --> 0:02:04.327 Fear of being judged. Because Elizabeth Gilbert I think said, 0:02:04.967 --> 0:02:07.687 when a man puts a work of creative work into 0:02:07.687 --> 0:02:10.287 the world, people debate the work. When a woman puts 0:02:10.287 --> 0:02:13.007 a work of creativity out into the world, they debate 0:02:13.087 --> 0:02:15.647 whether she's worthy of putting anything out at all. 0:02:15.727 --> 0:02:17.767 Yeah, I remember being in high school, and I love 0:02:17.887 --> 0:02:18.527 public speaking. 0:02:18.567 --> 0:02:19.487 It was my favorite thing. 0:02:19.887 --> 0:02:21.807 I did a speech in front of the school and 0:02:21.847 --> 0:02:23.687 I was so proud of myself, and I remember the 0:02:23.767 --> 0:02:26.687 overwhelming response from other girls was like, who. 0:02:26.487 --> 0:02:27.327 Does she think she is? 0:02:28.447 --> 0:02:31.527 To her, it was very very that And it's this 0:02:31.607 --> 0:02:33.767 idea that you kind of have to put it away, 0:02:33.807 --> 0:02:36.127 or that imagination, as you say, mayor it's a little 0:02:36.167 --> 0:02:38.407 bit for childhood. And that's such a loss, because teenage 0:02:38.407 --> 0:02:40.287 girls are really really creative. 0:02:40.087 --> 0:02:40.607 Yes smart. 0:02:40.927 --> 0:02:42.807 So we wanted to talk to you and maybe your 0:02:42.887 --> 0:02:45.607 daughters as well today about why that's just not true 0:02:45.647 --> 0:02:49.047 and give a bit of insight into creativity and times 0:02:49.087 --> 0:02:50.847 in our life when we've been more or less creative. 0:02:51.207 --> 0:02:54.047 I want to know about you me, who is one 0:02:54.127 --> 0:02:56.647 of the most creative people that I know, in almost 0:02:56.647 --> 0:02:59.327 all areas of your life, If you have always always 0:02:59.367 --> 0:02:59.887 been like that? 0:03:00.087 --> 0:03:05.207 Yes, So it's taken lots of different forms my creativity. 0:03:05.207 --> 0:03:10.167 I've always had a big imagination. But my earliest memory 0:03:10.207 --> 0:03:13.127 of it was my mum got a call when I 0:03:13.167 --> 0:03:14.887 was at preschool, so I would have been about two 0:03:15.047 --> 0:03:18.127 or three. She got a call from my preschool saying 0:03:18.407 --> 0:03:20.207 we're a bit worried we just need to talk to 0:03:20.247 --> 0:03:22.847 you because it's the middle of winter and Maya keeps 0:03:22.847 --> 0:03:24.887 coming to school and then she disappears in the middle 0:03:24.887 --> 0:03:26.487 of the day and she's just wearing like a little 0:03:26.607 --> 0:03:30.327 dress and it's freezing outside. And we've realized that she's 0:03:30.327 --> 0:03:33.367 actually bringing spare changes of clothes to Kindy in her 0:03:33.367 --> 0:03:37.207 little Kindy bag and getting changed throughout the day, and 0:03:37.247 --> 0:03:39.447 it's not always seasonally appropriate. So I had to have 0:03:39.487 --> 0:03:43.127 these Kindy bag inspections before I went to Kindy. 0:03:43.167 --> 0:03:44.807 You pull out all that we should do them. 0:03:45.087 --> 0:03:46.607 We should do them when you walk into the office. 0:03:46.647 --> 0:03:48.167 You came in today with a suitcase, and we said, 0:03:48.247 --> 0:03:50.407 allus case, what was in a suitcase? 0:03:50.567 --> 0:03:52.407 As you know, if you've been to them on mere office, 0:03:52.407 --> 0:03:54.167 you'll know that I've got a rack in my office 0:03:54.167 --> 0:03:56.567 and I will often get changed during the day. I'm 0:03:56.567 --> 0:03:59.047 having a really early dinner with girlfriends tonight, but I've 0:03:59.047 --> 0:04:00.647 got to make sure that I've got enough time to 0:04:00.687 --> 0:04:04.287 go home and put on another outfit, just because you 0:04:04.327 --> 0:04:07.607 know anyway, so that I've always used clothes as a 0:04:07.607 --> 0:04:11.447 form of creative expression, right, and there have been times 0:04:11.447 --> 0:04:13.287 in my life when I haven't, And there've been times 0:04:13.327 --> 0:04:15.847 when i've that's reflective of a really bad headspack. 0:04:16.007 --> 0:04:18.447 Were you one of those kids, because I know I was, 0:04:18.487 --> 0:04:19.967 and I don't know if you were, Jesse who I 0:04:20.007 --> 0:04:22.327 always played imaginary games when I was a kid. I 0:04:22.367 --> 0:04:24.807 always had like narratives going in my head and play 0:04:24.887 --> 0:04:27.247 a lot of imaginary games. So I'd be off in 0:04:27.287 --> 0:04:30.647 the corner playing and it would be my own invented world. 0:04:31.247 --> 0:04:33.047 And I think that that was a sign for me 0:04:33.087 --> 0:04:36.567 when I was young that I loved disappearing into that 0:04:36.687 --> 0:04:39.007 and I'd just be off in a corner chattering to myself, 0:04:39.047 --> 0:04:41.047 but I was in my own world. I'll do it 0:04:41.087 --> 0:04:44.007 with cloth. Yeah, that's another point of which sometimes that 0:04:44.047 --> 0:04:45.767 gets knocked out of you because it's a bit of 0:04:45.767 --> 0:04:47.567 a weird thing to do. Let's be honest, right, And 0:04:47.567 --> 0:04:49.807 there's a point of which someone in your family or 0:04:49.847 --> 0:04:52.207 your friends would be like, why is holy talking. 0:04:52.007 --> 0:04:55.367 To myself in like clone pretend? And then I guess. 0:04:55.167 --> 0:04:56.767 As soon as I was a bit older and I 0:04:56.807 --> 0:05:00.007 realized I could write those worlds down, I would fill 0:05:00.127 --> 0:05:04.527 notebooks with stories and stories that included my friends. I 0:05:04.607 --> 0:05:07.447 used to write these kind of like serialized stories that 0:05:07.527 --> 0:05:10.367 had me and my friends do in these crazy things, 0:05:10.847 --> 0:05:13.167 and so I think that it probably was in me 0:05:13.207 --> 0:05:15.087 from a young age. But what I'd love to ask you, Jesse, 0:05:15.367 --> 0:05:17.647 is I wonder if this sometimes when you're a kid, 0:05:17.687 --> 0:05:20.887 we're kind of told you're either creative or your sort 0:05:20.927 --> 0:05:23.247 of book smart, a bit scientific, a bit massy, and 0:05:23.287 --> 0:05:24.927 you kind of have to pick right, you have to 0:05:24.967 --> 0:05:28.647 pick a lane. I'm definitely the stereotypical. I was good 0:05:28.687 --> 0:05:30.767 at English and writing and books, and I wasn't good 0:05:30.767 --> 0:05:33.367 at science and maths and things. But Jesse is our 0:05:33.407 --> 0:05:35.527 resident book smart person. I know me is about to 0:05:35.527 --> 0:05:38.567 say I was good at maths too. Just hold it me, 0:05:37.927 --> 0:05:39.607 as although I did. 0:05:44.367 --> 0:05:45.447 Well in maths, I. 0:05:45.407 --> 0:05:47.127 Want to go to Jesse and say, did you ever 0:05:47.127 --> 0:05:49.327 feel that pressure to choose? And were you always like 0:05:49.367 --> 0:05:50.607 a jewel Lain person. 0:05:50.887 --> 0:05:54.127 I can remember being in year three and I was really, 0:05:54.167 --> 0:05:57.007 really really shy kid and I barely spoke, and I 0:05:57.087 --> 0:05:59.047 cried whenever I stood in front of the class. And 0:05:59.127 --> 0:06:01.247 I remember the teacher, I remember her name, and I 0:06:01.287 --> 0:06:05.607 remember her recognizing creativity in me and fostering it, and 0:06:05.647 --> 0:06:07.207 that changed everything. 0:06:07.247 --> 0:06:08.087 How did she do that? 0:06:08.327 --> 0:06:12.007 So I would write store fictional stories of things for 0:06:12.127 --> 0:06:13.647 other teachers. I would write the stories and I was 0:06:13.647 --> 0:06:16.287 a terrible speller, and they would just circle the bad spelling, 0:06:16.607 --> 0:06:18.967 and then I would get disheartened. And she didn't care 0:06:19.047 --> 0:06:21.367 about the spelling. She just thought that it was great 0:06:21.407 --> 0:06:23.967 that I was writing stories. And then she encouraged me. 0:06:24.007 --> 0:06:26.207 I remember there was like a plaything and she actually 0:06:26.287 --> 0:06:28.607 gave me a role or whatever and got me to 0:06:28.647 --> 0:06:31.207 do I have this weird memory. I don't know why 0:06:31.207 --> 0:06:33.567 it's stuck. You know those things you're like, is this significant? 0:06:33.807 --> 0:06:36.167 She was reading a story to the class. It was 0:06:36.207 --> 0:06:37.967 a description in a book and it was saying that 0:06:38.007 --> 0:06:40.727 there were so many flies that the indigenous person in 0:06:40.767 --> 0:06:42.847 the book was closing their eyes so that the flies 0:06:42.847 --> 0:06:44.687 didn't get in. And as she was reading, she looked 0:06:44.687 --> 0:06:46.327 at me and I was trying to do it like 0:06:46.407 --> 0:06:50.087 close my eyes. She could clearly see that I understood imagery, 0:06:50.527 --> 0:06:51.287 and like there was. 0:06:51.247 --> 0:06:55.127 A real wow because she were empathetic with the story 0:06:55.567 --> 0:06:56.047 the character. 0:06:56.127 --> 0:06:58.007 I must have been really little when that happened. 0:06:58.367 --> 0:07:02.527 I find that my journey since has been about trying 0:07:02.567 --> 0:07:04.647 to get back to five because the way it was 0:07:04.687 --> 0:07:07.727 beaten out of me. I feel like with essays and stuff, 0:07:07.887 --> 0:07:10.447 perfectionism meant I wanted to get really good marks. You 0:07:10.487 --> 0:07:13.207 felt like you had to write the same way, and 0:07:13.727 --> 0:07:16.407 you put the creativity to the side, and then the 0:07:16.407 --> 0:07:20.127 inner critic gets so so loud that the creativity is 0:07:20.167 --> 0:07:21.407 totally stifled. 0:07:21.727 --> 0:07:22.927 I feel like all of it is. 0:07:22.927 --> 0:07:26.047 I sit down sometimes during writing my fiction book and 0:07:26.087 --> 0:07:27.487 I would go, I wish I was five and I 0:07:27.487 --> 0:07:29.727 could just sit there on my little I had a 0:07:29.807 --> 0:07:32.967 little desk and a little stool and a pen, well 0:07:33.007 --> 0:07:35.567 a pensilks didn't have a pen license, and I would 0:07:35.567 --> 0:07:36.647 write stories. 0:07:36.887 --> 0:07:38.927 It's interesting that you guys talk about writing a lot, 0:07:39.007 --> 0:07:41.647 like you know, I loved poetry in English and everything, 0:07:41.687 --> 0:07:46.207 but creativity for me hasn't been something that has required skill. 0:07:46.247 --> 0:07:48.407 Like one of my fondest memories and what I used 0:07:48.407 --> 0:07:51.407 to love doing was cutting things out of magazines to 0:07:51.487 --> 0:07:54.927 decorate my school diaries and stuff, and decorating my folders 0:07:54.967 --> 0:07:57.847 and my locker and my bedroom, you know, putting posters. 0:07:58.167 --> 0:08:01.407 I still to this day love to blue tack things 0:08:01.487 --> 0:08:05.287 up and play with my personal space, whether it's my 0:08:05.327 --> 0:08:10.087 bedroom or my office or my wardrobe. I like rearranging 0:08:10.167 --> 0:08:12.047 what I can see. To me, that's a form. 0:08:11.887 --> 0:08:14.687 Of pace, and you're definitely like a sort of three 0:08:14.847 --> 0:08:18.167 sixty creative in that way, right, You're always looking at 0:08:18.207 --> 0:08:20.407 the way things look and wanting to change them and 0:08:20.447 --> 0:08:23.407 thinking of new ways to do things. Because one of 0:08:23.447 --> 0:08:26.647 the things about creativity is it's not just about obviously 0:08:26.887 --> 0:08:29.767 creating art. Whether that's oh, you want to be a 0:08:29.767 --> 0:08:31.447 writer or you want to be a painter or whatever. 0:08:32.207 --> 0:08:35.007 Creative thinking is probably becoming more and more important all 0:08:35.047 --> 0:08:37.207 the time because the machines are not yet as good 0:08:37.207 --> 0:08:39.967 at that as we are. They may become that if 0:08:39.967 --> 0:08:43.207 we don't foster creativity in kids. I'm not in a 0:08:43.247 --> 0:08:46.727 prescriptive way, but don't encourage them to think big picture 0:08:46.807 --> 0:08:49.047 and live in their imagination for a while and think, well, 0:08:49.047 --> 0:08:51.607 what would make this better? How could this be solved? 0:08:51.607 --> 0:08:53.847 What is a different way of saying this. If we 0:08:53.887 --> 0:08:57.087 don't do that, then you lose something very important that 0:08:57.167 --> 0:08:59.607 isn't really about writing stories or painting pictures. 0:08:59.687 --> 0:09:02.367 And you know what else we lose is the flow skate. 0:09:02.647 --> 0:09:06.567 So you might remember being a kid and whole afternoons 0:09:06.687 --> 0:09:10.727 disappeared and we would play imagine getting dressed up and 0:09:10.847 --> 0:09:12.127 Claire and I would play a game. 0:09:12.207 --> 0:09:13.607 But I used to make up dances. 0:09:13.767 --> 0:09:15.047 Yes, of course you did. 0:09:15.287 --> 0:09:19.527 And the way that time because you are so involved 0:09:19.567 --> 0:09:22.407 in something and you are this incredible focus that doesn't 0:09:22.407 --> 0:09:26.207 feel like focus because it's so re energizing, that state 0:09:26.247 --> 0:09:27.967 of flow when you are playing. 0:09:28.087 --> 0:09:30.847 But I was also very lonely because there were no screens. 0:09:30.927 --> 0:09:32.327 I had my brother were. 0:09:32.407 --> 0:09:36.047 Lonely because there were no screens. Yes, yes, I had. 0:09:36.127 --> 0:09:37.287 I couldn't text my children. 0:09:37.367 --> 0:09:39.767 Listening to this put your fingers in your ears were 0:09:39.807 --> 0:09:40.567 all screens. 0:09:40.607 --> 0:09:42.167 I was lonely because there were no screens. No, but 0:09:42.247 --> 0:09:44.207 there was no option. So I think one of the 0:09:44.247 --> 0:09:49.047 things that Foster's creativity is bored them. Yes, and I'm 0:09:49.087 --> 0:09:52.647 never bored now really, But then I was bored all 0:09:52.847 --> 0:09:55.207 the time because there was nothing on television, there was 0:09:55.207 --> 0:09:58.127 no streaming, there was no internet. I had no siblings, 0:09:58.647 --> 0:10:00.847 I didn't have a lot of friends. So I would 0:10:00.887 --> 0:10:02.727 make up dancers and I would, you know, I would 0:10:02.767 --> 0:10:06.407 be forced to be creative. I was never imaginative in 0:10:06.447 --> 0:10:08.487 the way that you two were, And to this day, 0:10:08.527 --> 0:10:10.367 I'm not like I'm or of anyone that can write 0:10:10.367 --> 0:10:13.847 fiction because I don't ever make up stories in my head. 0:10:14.367 --> 0:10:19.087 I like the real world, but I like physically expressing myself, 0:10:19.127 --> 0:10:21.887 you know, whether it's doing a dance or dressing myself for. 0:10:23.367 --> 0:10:25.207 In a minute, we're going to come back, and I 0:10:25.287 --> 0:10:27.087 want to know from Jesse and Meher and I'll be 0:10:27.127 --> 0:10:29.527 taking notes about how they keep themselves creative when there's 0:10:29.567 --> 0:10:39.367 so much pressure these days to do a million other things. 0:10:40.327 --> 0:10:43.447 All right, I need to hear about your hacks because 0:10:43.527 --> 0:10:45.407 I write books. We all do lots of things, and 0:10:45.447 --> 0:10:48.207 we've all written books. But I am in the middle 0:10:48.207 --> 0:10:50.527 of writing my fifth novel, and I have to say 0:10:51.087 --> 0:10:54.407 my creative process has been heart this time. Right, I've 0:10:54.407 --> 0:10:56.647 had a bit of writer's block. I found it hard 0:10:56.687 --> 0:10:59.487 to get him flow. There are a million things distracting me. 0:10:59.647 --> 0:11:02.567 I've got a million thoughts in my head. I want 0:11:02.607 --> 0:11:04.407 to know if there have been times in your life 0:11:04.407 --> 0:11:06.247 when you've had a bit of a block me and 0:11:06.287 --> 0:11:08.327 how you've managed to unblock it. 0:11:08.767 --> 0:11:11.007 You've talked to Baud anxiety being a block for you. 0:11:11.287 --> 0:11:14.047 I've got an image of a toilet plunger when I 0:11:14.087 --> 0:11:16.807 had a really bad anxiety attack that went for like 0:11:16.847 --> 0:11:19.927 almost two weeks, and I was diagnosed and everything. I 0:11:20.047 --> 0:11:25.247 was really worried that I wouldn't be able to write anymore. Ironically, 0:11:25.327 --> 0:11:27.967 when I was writing, it was the only time I 0:11:28.007 --> 0:11:32.007 wasn't anxious because that state of concentration and flow that 0:11:32.087 --> 0:11:34.007 I will get into if I was writing and you know, 0:11:34.087 --> 0:11:37.647 this is writing articles for Mamma Mia, I don't write fiction. 0:11:38.687 --> 0:11:40.207 It helped my anxiety. 0:11:40.327 --> 0:11:43.007 So is that creative rest? You know how you recently 0:11:43.047 --> 0:11:45.447 brought up that term. I wonder if for you that 0:11:45.607 --> 0:11:47.247 was almost respite. 0:11:47.327 --> 0:11:51.967 It was just a distraction, really, and so now my 0:11:52.127 --> 0:11:56.007 creative rest. I were two hats at MMA MAYA half 0:11:56.047 --> 0:11:58.327 of me is the co founder of the business, and 0:11:58.367 --> 0:12:00.807 then half of me is making content like podcasts with 0:12:00.847 --> 0:12:03.807 you guys and writing and social and stuff. The making 0:12:03.847 --> 0:12:06.207 of the stuff is the stuff I love, and that's probably, 0:12:06.247 --> 0:12:08.647 I don't know, thirty percent of my job, maybe forty percent, 0:12:09.247 --> 0:12:11.967 always trying to get it to be more, and the 0:12:12.047 --> 0:12:15.087 other part of my job really drains me because it 0:12:15.167 --> 0:12:17.407 is the opposite of being creative. I mean, sometimes you 0:12:17.447 --> 0:12:21.047 can have creative solutions to problems, and it's creative for 0:12:21.087 --> 0:12:23.887 me having ideas that I don't necessarily have to execute. 0:12:24.407 --> 0:12:28.727 But for me, creativity doesn't also have to be creative. 0:12:28.767 --> 0:12:31.447 Rest can come from doing a puzzle while I'm listening 0:12:31.487 --> 0:12:34.007 to an audiobook, or going for a walk while I'm 0:12:34.007 --> 0:12:36.807 listening to a podcast, or rearranging my wardrobe, or walking 0:12:36.847 --> 0:12:39.767 around a shopping center and looking at clothes. Someone else 0:12:39.767 --> 0:12:43.567 has said, it's also about regulating emotionally, regulating For me, 0:12:43.687 --> 0:12:48.887 creativity regulates me emotionally, and I need it to sort 0:12:48.887 --> 0:12:51.127 of function it and even keel if that makes sense, 0:12:51.287 --> 0:12:51.767 if you ever. 0:12:51.647 --> 0:12:54.487 Struggle to deal creativity, Jesse, because you certainly from the 0:12:54.527 --> 0:12:58.727 outside seem like an incredibly prolific producer of things, of 0:12:58.807 --> 0:12:59.887 creative projects. 0:13:00.207 --> 0:13:03.487 I think you can produce a project without having any creativity, 0:13:03.607 --> 0:13:06.007 and that's the saddest thing you can create, because it's 0:13:06.127 --> 0:13:09.487 really it costs you a lot. And the thing that 0:13:09.607 --> 0:13:11.807 gets in the way of creativity more than anything else, 0:13:11.847 --> 0:13:13.407 it is your worst nightmare that you have to let 0:13:13.487 --> 0:13:14.607 go of, is perfectionism. 0:13:14.727 --> 0:13:15.807 And may you taught me that? 0:13:15.847 --> 0:13:19.127 And girls do suffer from that more than boys statistically, right, 0:13:19.247 --> 0:13:23.207 So it's another reason why maybe little girls stop playing 0:13:23.247 --> 0:13:26.327 and building and inventing things, is they're like, but it's 0:13:26.367 --> 0:13:26.927 not good. 0:13:27.167 --> 0:13:28.087 It's not good, enfet. 0:13:28.167 --> 0:13:29.807 It's not as good as the one that I've seen 0:13:29.847 --> 0:13:31.967 on social or the one that that influence is making, 0:13:32.007 --> 0:13:34.287 or the one my brother's making, or so I'm just 0:13:34.327 --> 0:13:36.967 going to not do it. So how do you overcome that? 0:13:37.207 --> 0:13:39.967 And I remember it kicking in in adolescence. It was 0:13:40.047 --> 0:13:44.567 like I would handwrite these stories or I I loved drawing, 0:13:44.647 --> 0:13:47.047 I loved painting. And then I remember something happened one 0:13:47.087 --> 0:13:49.487 day where I would like start writing on a page 0:13:49.487 --> 0:13:51.567 and then I'd be like, my handwriting isn't neat enough. 0:13:51.607 --> 0:13:54.127 I need to redo that, like and it would and 0:13:54.167 --> 0:13:56.967 it was awful. It's like you can't get into that 0:13:58.127 --> 0:14:01.687 state of psych reda batars, Yeah, exactly. So I have 0:14:01.807 --> 0:14:07.327 found a few things help. I think handwriting is really good. 0:14:07.367 --> 0:14:09.767 And I'm not just talking about writing. I'm talking about anything. 0:14:09.847 --> 0:14:11.847 If you feel like you creatively need to get something 0:14:11.887 --> 0:14:14.327 out a pencil and paper or pen and paper. 0:14:14.207 --> 0:14:15.247 It's right like that. 0:14:15.527 --> 0:14:17.687 Oh, so it's so freeing. 0:14:18.207 --> 0:14:21.007 I think going for a walk or being in a 0:14:21.047 --> 0:14:25.247 certain space with absolutely no input, and by that I 0:14:25.367 --> 0:14:28.247 mean spend time in your head. I think we're talking 0:14:28.247 --> 0:14:30.607 about this when we're away. We were snorkeling, and I 0:14:30.647 --> 0:14:33.767 love snorkeling, and I love swimming because there's nothing else 0:14:34.007 --> 0:14:37.727 and it's like my brain. When my mind wanders, it 0:14:37.767 --> 0:14:41.127 goes to such interesting places, and I miss that from childhood. 0:14:41.567 --> 0:14:44.607 You don't let your brain do that if it's just input, input, input, So. 0:14:44.727 --> 0:14:47.127 True, Can I ask you just a little bit back 0:14:47.167 --> 0:14:49.647 on the critic, because if we think that maybe some 0:14:49.727 --> 0:14:52.567 little girls and girls are stopping being creative because they're 0:14:52.567 --> 0:14:54.807 worried about what people are going to say to them. Yea, 0:14:55.087 --> 0:14:57.087 as you've said, Jesse, when you were at school, though, 0:14:57.207 --> 0:14:59.487 like who do you think you are? Or whatever? Have 0:14:59.567 --> 0:15:03.847 you learned anything that's useful about how to not care 0:15:03.967 --> 0:15:06.007 quite so much about that and still be true to 0:15:06.047 --> 0:15:06.647 what you want to. 0:15:06.567 --> 0:15:10.527 Do a few things. I think done is better than perfect. 0:15:11.167 --> 0:15:16.207 You can't edit or rearrange something that you haven't started. 0:15:16.367 --> 0:15:21.527 You've got to just put something down. Sometimes creativity can 0:15:21.567 --> 0:15:24.967 be just for you. It's not a performance. It's not 0:15:25.007 --> 0:15:27.567 for other people to judge. And you can draw something, 0:15:27.727 --> 0:15:30.767 or you can make something and go the best feeling. 0:15:30.767 --> 0:15:32.447 And I, as we say, we've all written books. I 0:15:32.487 --> 0:15:33.967 can tell you can write a book and you can 0:15:34.007 --> 0:15:36.207 get a great review or sell x many copies. There 0:15:36.287 --> 0:15:39.687 is nothing like the feeling of feeling proud of something 0:15:39.767 --> 0:15:42.087 you have created. There's nothing else that's going to make 0:15:42.167 --> 0:15:46.047 you the teacher giving your yeah. And in fact, it's 0:15:46.047 --> 0:15:48.487 in the doing. It's like in the doing of something. 0:15:48.527 --> 0:15:51.967 So the thing that's helped me the most has been 0:15:52.247 --> 0:15:55.647 playing with my now nine month old, so watching her, 0:15:55.687 --> 0:15:58.327 and it's at the moment the developmental stage is putting 0:15:58.447 --> 0:16:00.847 ball in roundhole, right, So I just show her how 0:16:00.887 --> 0:16:01.927 to do it, and then she doesn't do it and 0:16:01.967 --> 0:16:03.847 I'm like, no, the ball goes in there. 0:16:04.167 --> 0:16:06.567 But then I'm like, no, no, No. The thing is 0:16:06.607 --> 0:16:07.247 the playing. 0:16:07.447 --> 0:16:09.487 The thing is that she picks the ball up to 0:16:09.527 --> 0:16:11.207 eat it and then she throws it at the dog, 0:16:11.367 --> 0:16:13.367 and I'm like, it's. 0:16:13.207 --> 0:16:14.607 The journey, not the destination. 0:16:15.247 --> 0:16:17.967 I love sitting on the floor with her and playing 0:16:18.167 --> 0:16:18.927 with toys. 0:16:19.007 --> 0:16:19.767 I love it. 0:16:20.527 --> 0:16:21.767 Watching her exploring. 0:16:21.967 --> 0:16:33.527 Yes, Mia, what's the best advice you've ever been given 0:16:33.567 --> 0:16:35.847 about not caring about what other people think? 0:16:36.727 --> 0:16:39.527 It's that thing of dance, like no one's watching, right. 0:16:39.687 --> 0:16:39.887 Yeah. 0:16:40.007 --> 0:16:42.167 I had a lovely time going to a like an 0:16:42.167 --> 0:16:46.927 all female disco club recently, which that felt really creative, 0:16:46.967 --> 0:16:50.247 like everyone's got disco for grenups, yeah, and everyone was 0:16:50.287 --> 0:16:53.007 just dancing and it was just fun because no one felt, 0:16:53.367 --> 0:16:56.367 oh my being judged. Like, as women and as girls, 0:16:56.407 --> 0:16:59.127 we learn very quickly when we're girls to be watching 0:16:59.167 --> 0:17:03.167 ourselves from the outside and judging ourselves before someone else 0:17:03.247 --> 0:17:06.527 judges us. And I'm watching at the moment my daughter, 0:17:06.807 --> 0:17:10.407 who is very creative, and you'll go from thing to things. 0:17:10.407 --> 0:17:12.687 So she was like sea glass, hunting for ages and 0:17:12.727 --> 0:17:16.127 collecting sea glass. Now she's just started painting, and I'm 0:17:16.207 --> 0:17:19.887 so envious because she's just having a go. She's just like, 0:17:19.967 --> 0:17:22.647 got these canvases and she's just doing all these kinds 0:17:22.647 --> 0:17:25.687 of things, and I'm just like, wow, I would feel 0:17:25.727 --> 0:17:29.927 too vulnerable to put something on canvas. I'm very into 0:17:30.087 --> 0:17:35.727 low stakes creativity, like baking something, making a cake, rearranging 0:17:35.847 --> 0:17:40.087 some pillows on my couch, moving some furniture around, Like 0:17:40.167 --> 0:17:43.447 I really like those little light touch bits of creativity. 0:17:43.487 --> 0:17:47.247 Holly, how have you with a daughter who is going 0:17:47.407 --> 0:17:51.607 into adolescence. How do you make sure that she doesn't 0:17:51.687 --> 0:17:54.327 let that critic steal creativity from her? 0:17:54.687 --> 0:17:56.287 Well, one of the things I talked to her about 0:17:56.287 --> 0:17:58.127 a lot, because I think it's there's a point that 0:17:58.167 --> 0:18:00.287 girls go through, as you just said me away, suddenly 0:18:00.327 --> 0:18:03.247 they feel very visible and everybody's looking and judging, and 0:18:03.327 --> 0:18:05.927 sometimes it can be a bit sad for moms and dads, 0:18:05.967 --> 0:18:10.207 I guess, to see their little creative swirling around girls. 0:18:10.327 --> 0:18:13.967 You know, a lot of girls will be literally dancing 0:18:14.007 --> 0:18:17.527 like nobody's watching, playing with their friends, scrapping, not caring 0:18:17.527 --> 0:18:20.807 about stuff, dancing around, creating plays, doing all those things, 0:18:21.047 --> 0:18:23.887 and then suddenly it's like closed down. No oh no, 0:18:24.047 --> 0:18:26.167 it's not cool. It's not and it can be a 0:18:26.167 --> 0:18:29.127 bit heartbreaking even to watch it. We make sure that 0:18:29.207 --> 0:18:34.127 in our house it's very clearly explicitly a silly space, right, 0:18:35.047 --> 0:18:38.207 a great word. In our house, you can be as 0:18:38.247 --> 0:18:41.647 silly and goofy and uncool as you want. You can 0:18:41.967 --> 0:18:44.127 try out ideas that you might not want to say 0:18:44.127 --> 0:18:47.207 out loud anywhere else. Nobody's judging you for whatever. Of 0:18:47.207 --> 0:18:49.207 course that isn't truth. The siblings judge each other all 0:18:49.247 --> 0:18:52.727