Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: There were times when I couldn't pay the bills. There
Speaker 3: were times when I had to borrow money to exist.
Speaker 3: There were times when I mean I never stole or
Speaker 3: did anything like that, but there were times when I
Speaker 3: considered it.
Speaker 2: For Mamma Maya, this is no filter. I'm Meya Friedman.
Speaker 2: And sometimes we have people on this show who share
Speaker 2: a story that we know is going to literally save
Speaker 2: someone's life when they hear it. And this is one
Speaker 2: of those stories because you're about to meet Anna Martin.
Speaker 2: Anna is a recovering gambling addict who, as you're about
Speaker 2: to hear, almost lost her life to this insidious India.
Speaker 2: When you imagine a gambling at it, you probably imagine
Speaker 2: a man, because men are mostly who gambling's marketed to,
Speaker 2: and it's also who most of.
Speaker 1: The anti gambling.
Speaker 2: Support services are also aimed towards. And women who gamble,
Speaker 2: and there are so many of them. Women who gamble
Speaker 2: are really in the shadows, and that's where Anna was.
Speaker 1: In the shadows.
Speaker 2: She didn't want anyone to know about her gambling habits.
Speaker 2: She had such shame, and she also didn't want anyone
Speaker 2: to know about the risks that she was taking, the
Speaker 2: financial risks, the risk to her safety. She didn't want
Speaker 2: anyone to know how bad it got to the point
Speaker 2: where she almost lost her life. Shame and secrecy are killers.
Speaker 2: We know that, and gambling is shrouded in shame and secrecy.
Speaker 2: So it's no small thing for Anna.
Speaker 1: To share her story with us today.
Speaker 2: And I don't think there's an Australian alive who won't
Speaker 2: be able to really late to the way this story starts.
Speaker 2: It's with Anna at the pub with her family having lunch.
Speaker 3: Look, this was a construct within my family for many years.
Speaker 3: My grandfather, who is a core part of this journey
Speaker 3: for me, and my mother and my brother all rocked
Speaker 3: up to the same pub in Adelaide and had lunch
Speaker 3: together just about every weekend. So it was a core
Speaker 3: part of my childhood experiences.
Speaker 2: The Pokeys for our non Australian listeners, the poker machines,
Speaker 2: they would know them as you were there with your family.
Speaker 2: They're a ubiquitous part of Australian culture, probably a lot
Speaker 2: more so now than they were back then. Your grandfather,
Speaker 2: though even back then, was an avid user of the Pokeyes,
Speaker 2: wasn't he?
Speaker 4: He certainly was.
Speaker 1: What did that look like to you?
Speaker 2: So would it mean that he would have lunch with
Speaker 2: you and then he'd sort of scurry away? And how
Speaker 2: long would he spend there?
Speaker 1: What did you see? What did you notice?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: No, he never made it a big part of the
Speaker 3: outings that my family did together. He would always be
Speaker 3: at the table for lunch with us, and then afterwards
Speaker 3: there would be a period of time when my brother
Speaker 3: and I were younger, that he would go away into
Speaker 3: the Pokey's venue and spend some time, and quite often
Speaker 3: I could hear him speaking and laughing.
Speaker 4: And it was always a memory that.
Speaker 3: I associated with joy, because he would build up to it,
Speaker 3: he would make references to it, and quite often if
Speaker 3: I spoke to him on the phone during the week
Speaker 3: in between the lunches, he would say, it's happening. It's
Speaker 3: going to happen on Saturday, and we're going to win money.
Speaker 3: It's going to be amazing. So it was always a
Speaker 3: memory that was associated with joy and positivity, and the
Speaker 3: less positive side of it only came into play for
Speaker 3: me when I was an adult.
Speaker 2: I imagine it was also associated with sort of familiarity
Speaker 2: and safety, because that was your grandpa, right, and it
Speaker 2: was something that happened and in plain sight, even though
Speaker 2: kids weren't allowed to be around the Pokey's in that area,
Speaker 2: it did. It sort of seem exciting and a bit forbidden,
Speaker 2: but quite joyous, not furtive.
Speaker 4: Did it. Ever?
Speaker 3: The venuine question was the pokies were quite close to
Speaker 3: the eating areas, so we're talking about a sheet of
Speaker 3: glass that was frosted that you couldn't see through. But
Speaker 3: all I remember was the laughing. I remember the coins
Speaker 3: clinking in the cups before note acceptors came in. I
Speaker 3: remember people coming out with smiles on their faces. And
Speaker 3: it was at this particular venue, never something that I
Speaker 3: considered unacceptable, even though I'm sure there were parts of
Speaker 3: it that I didn't see as a child, with people
Speaker 3: being upset, people losing their money, people coming out wondering
Speaker 3: how they were going to put food on the table.
Speaker 3: But as a kid, you don't pick up on those
Speaker 3: kinds of cues.
Speaker 2: I don't think, Yeah, it's funny when you speak, you've
Speaker 2: got a really happy expression, like you're smiling in a
Speaker 2: really happy way, like you do when we look back
Speaker 2: on a happy memory. In high school, your family went
Speaker 2: through some changes. Your parents got a divorce, which took
Speaker 2: a big emotional toll on you. And throughout that time
Speaker 2: you were really close to your grandfather.
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about him.
Speaker 3: Oh, amazing man. So my grandfather was a banker and
Speaker 3: maintained a personal bank account with a reserve bank right
Speaker 3: up until he died. He was involved in the delivery
Speaker 3: of decimal currency to banks around Adelaide and was considered
Speaker 3: too important to go to war because of his role there.
Speaker 4: As I was growing.
Speaker 3: Up, he taught me to love books and words and
Speaker 3: reading and gave me my incredibly stupid and low bar
Speaker 3: humor that I still enjoy today. Probably one of the
Speaker 3: smartest people I've ever met. And when he died in
Speaker 3: two thousand and five that the memory of him passing
Speaker 3: was on the day that the sky show occurred in Adelaide.
Speaker 4: So the sky Show, for.
Speaker 3: People that don't know, is a firework show that happens
Speaker 3: usually on Australia Day. And I remember my mum had
Speaker 3: called us and let us know that he had passed,
Speaker 3: and it was just when the fireworks were starting, and
Speaker 3: a core memory of that for me is me going, wow, Okay,
Speaker 3: so he's moving on to the next part of his life.
Speaker 3: He's done all he can here and here is the
Speaker 3: welcome journey for him to the next stage.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a beautiful way of looking at it.
Speaker 2: I've got a real sense of him.
Speaker 4: I almost cried.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm almost.
Speaker 2: Crying, Like looking at your face. I've got a real
Speaker 2: sense of him. And I don't know if I spoke
Speaker 2: about my only met one of my grandfathers, but I
Speaker 2: don't know if I spoke about him. I loved him
Speaker 2: and he was great, but I didn't have that sole
Speaker 2: connection with him that it sounds like you had with
Speaker 2: your grandfather.
Speaker 1: How old were you when he died.
Speaker 3: I was twenty five. I was just at the end
Speaker 3: of my law degree and he passed just as I
Speaker 3: was sort of finishing final exam. So difficult time in
Speaker 3: my life to manage that kind of bereavement, but incredibly hard.
Speaker 3: Miss him every day and have his initials tattooed on
Speaker 3: the inside of my wrist so I remember him.
Speaker 2: Was he rich, No, not at all, because when you
Speaker 2: say he's a banker and he had an account with
Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank.
Speaker 3: If you asked him that question, he would laugh. He
Speaker 3: was from a working class family and he was the
Speaker 3: sole breadwinner. My grandmother was a stay at home wife
Speaker 3: and parent, and although they didn't have much money, especially
Speaker 3: in the early parts of their lives, their family never
Speaker 3: wanted for anything.
Speaker 2: When you turned eighteen, Anna, what did your grandfather give
Speaker 2: you as a present?
Speaker 3: He gave me money. I remember that, and he also
Speaker 3: gave me, almost like rites of passage experiences. So the
Speaker 3: pokes was one. He tried to get me to drink.
Speaker 3: That didn't work. I still don't drink. And he gave
Speaker 3: me books because he and I had always given each
Speaker 3: other books, and that became a core part of how
Speaker 3: we interacted, was over books and reading and stories, as well.
Speaker 2: As part of the money that he gave you, it
Speaker 2: was a cup of coins, certainly was so you could
Speaker 2: have your first legal spin on the pokes. Do you
Speaker 2: remember that first experience on the machine?
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 3: I remember, because, as I said, there was a pane
Speaker 3: of frosted glass that you had to walk behind to
Speaker 3: get into the area, and I remember going, wow, I've
Speaker 3: always been on the other side of this glass. Now
Speaker 3: I'm walking around to finally see what makes all these
Speaker 3: people so happy. And it might not have been on
Speaker 3: my very first experience, but this is a common experience
Speaker 3: of people that struggle with gambling harm is. I had
Speaker 3: a big wind fairly early, and I was eighteen, So
Speaker 3: we're only talking a couple one hundred dollars, which was
Speaker 3: more than I made in my week's earnings at KFC,
Speaker 3: where I worked at the time, and that to me
Speaker 3: seemed like an amazing thing to do and an amazing
Speaker 3: way of suring that I was going to make this
Speaker 3: kind of money all the time. And who would do
Speaker 3: part time work given that so close to me starting this,
Speaker 3: I was so successful.
Speaker 2: How much money did you have to put in to
Speaker 2: win that few hundred dollars?
Speaker 3: Do you think, Oh, look, it wouldn't have been much
Speaker 3: more than twenty thirty forty dollars. Like, we're not talking
Speaker 3: a lot of money at all. I don't remember the
Speaker 3: exact amount, but that was the we intended to go
Speaker 3: up to. When he was handing over money as gifts,
Speaker 3: which as a young adult you're always grateful for when
Speaker 3: struggling with part time work, But it wasn't a lot
Speaker 3: like we're talking very very small amount to win what
Speaker 3: I considered a very large one.
Speaker 2: You're right that at first you gambled alongside your grandfather
Speaker 2: as a sort of a bonding activity. You did it together.
Speaker 2: When did you first gamble alone? Do you remember that time?
Speaker 4: I do?
Speaker 3: It was when I started university in Adelaide City. So
Speaker 3: I went to the University of Adelaide and started my
Speaker 3: law degree and my art's degree and realized pretty quickly
Speaker 3: that pokeys were on every corner and they still are.
Speaker 3: So made my way across North Terrace into the venues
Speaker 3: when I had breaks between lectures and dutes, and used
Speaker 3: pokies as an escape and escape from study and escape
Speaker 3: from work. I was working really hard in the early
Speaker 3: part of my tertiary study as well, and it quickly
Speaker 3: became a hobby that was destructive.
Speaker 2: How did you feel when you were actually putting the
Speaker 2: money in and pulling that lever.
Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people who experienced gambling harm,
Speaker 3: and myself included, say that it doesn't feel like real money.
Speaker 3: It's almost fake, like you think of it almost like
Speaker 3: monopoly money. And I referred to that period of my
Speaker 3: life sometimes as the Disney theory of living, which is
Speaker 3: everything will workout fine, provided i'd just believe that it will.
Speaker 3: And there was more times than once that money went
Speaker 3: in and I went, oh, it's okay, I'll just get more.
Speaker 3: More will come next week after I've done more work.
Speaker 3: And I never had a rational kind of hang on
Speaker 3: a minute, what are you doing? All your money's gone,
Speaker 3: there's not going to be more until you earn more.
Speaker 3: Until I was much older.
Speaker 2: So the money that you put into the machine, and
Speaker 2: I imagine it's one and two dollar coins.
Speaker 3: One dollar coins when I was doing it, So when
Speaker 3: I started playing pokeys, it was before the note acceptors
Speaker 3: came in. So quite often now machines will just take banknotes.
Speaker 3: Pokis in Adelaide only took one dollar coins at that time.
Speaker 2: And where do you get the coins from? So you'd
Speaker 2: go to the like what was your routine before you
Speaker 2: went and played the poking?
Speaker 4: So there are two ways of doing it.
Speaker 3: You can approach the person working in the venue who
Speaker 3: will change your banknote for dollar coins, or quite often
Speaker 3: there was an automatic machine where you put your note in,
Speaker 3: you put a cup down the bottom and the coins
Speaker 3: drop down into the cup based on the note that
Speaker 3: you've put in. So I quite often would approach the
Speaker 3: person in the venue initially, but if I was getting
Speaker 3: to the point where I felt like I was losing
Speaker 3: a significant amount of money, there would be a level
Speaker 3: of shame associated with interacting with anyone in the venue,
Speaker 3: and then I would go back to the change machine
Speaker 3: and I would try and make it so no one
Speaker 3: was around if I was in that headspace, because to me,
Speaker 3: the shame was almost too great to bear, even at
Speaker 3: that early stage and losing what in the scheme of
Speaker 3: things as my addiction grew, was relatively small amounts.
Speaker 2: When you first started, did you have caps for yourself,
Speaker 2: like limits, I'll spend this much today?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did that lots and.
Speaker 1: What were they at first?
Speaker 3: So anyone who's experienced gambling harm will tell you they
Speaker 3: hate twenty dollar notes because twenty dollars is an automatic
Speaker 3: limit that a lot of people set for themselves. It
Speaker 3: was always only ever going to be twenty. Then I
Speaker 3: allowed it to be fifty on bad days, and it
Speaker 3: crept up from there.
Speaker 2: What made you make the decision to go past your limit?
Speaker 2: If you can explain to someone who doesn't know what
Speaker 2: addiction feels like, because I guess it's the same as
Speaker 2: what makes you go past your limit of drinking or
Speaker 2: drugs or doing anything.
Speaker 3: What makes you go past your limit is for me,
Speaker 3: parts of my life were crap. I was struggling with
Speaker 3: mental health issues. I didn't understand the way that some
Speaker 3: things were unfolding in my family. And when I deserve this,
Speaker 3: I deserve to win because other parts of my life
Speaker 3: were crap. So even if I went past the self
Speaker 3: imposed limit, it didn't matter because I deserved the positive outcome,
Speaker 3: which came so rarely.
Speaker 2: When I was struggling with bolimia, I would feel a
Speaker 2: certain way in my body when I was going and
Speaker 2: buying food to binge with, and then I would sort
Speaker 2: of feel a level of agitation and sort of almost
Speaker 2: arousal in the anticipation period. When I was actually binging
Speaker 2: or throwing up, it would kind of be like a
Speaker 2: really numb feeling. How did it feel for you the
Speaker 2: different parts of your experience each time you went and
Speaker 2: played the.
Speaker 3: Pokey's when you enter a venue, Well, when I enter
Speaker 3: a venue, it's the similar feeling of it's excitement, It's
Speaker 3: where nobody's going to get me, nobody's going to ask
Speaker 3: me why I'm here. Nobody's going to make me justify
Speaker 3: my existence. Nobody's going to say to me how you feeling,
Speaker 3: explain it to me, and I can just be by
Speaker 3: myself and do what I like to do, which is
Speaker 3: try and win money. But as time in the venue
Speaker 3: goes on, and if you look around a pokey venue,
Speaker 3: quite often there's not a clock and quite often there
Speaker 3: aren't windows. And there's a reason for that because people
Speaker 3: get almost into like a robotic state of existence where
Speaker 3: they think, if I just put in a little bit more,
Speaker 3: I'll win. If I can just put in a little
Speaker 3: bit more, have a big one, I won't tell anyone
Speaker 3: and we'll all get on with life. It'll be fine.
Speaker 3: So if you think about it like a curve, you
Speaker 3: go up to the top of the curve up here,
Speaker 3: you hit a numb state. You stay there until the
Speaker 3: point where you go, wait a minute, I'm in a
Speaker 3: situation that's really not constructive for me, and you take
Speaker 3: a very sharp decline. And that was normally when I
Speaker 3: left once I realized what the reality of what I've
Speaker 3: been doing meant for my life.
Speaker 2: What would make you have that realization and crossing to
Speaker 2: that stage.
Speaker 3: When i'd drawn out of money, when I got to
Speaker 3: the point where my shame was so great I couldn't
Speaker 3: look anybody in the eye in the venue, or when
Speaker 3: it was getting to the point where I felt unsafe.
Speaker 3: So quite often I would gamble or play the pokies
Speaker 3: to the point where it was quite late at night.
Speaker 3: I was living by myself, there was no reason or
Speaker 3: thought for me to go home, so I would gamble
Speaker 3: toll ten o'clock at night, and as a single woman
Speaker 3: in a pub at ten o'clock at night where people
Speaker 3: have been drinking, it's not always the safest environment. And
Speaker 3: I got to the point some nights where I went,
Speaker 3: I don't feel safe. I had to get out of here,
Speaker 3: and that would be the trigger for me leaving. If
Speaker 3: I was still at the point where I was winning
Speaker 3: or had a lot of money, or I was knowing
Speaker 3: that I had to get up for work the next
Speaker 3: day would sometimes be a trigger as well. But there
Speaker 3: are a raft of ways you can justify extra time
Speaker 3: to yourself.
Speaker 2: Would you ever leave when you were winning, when you
Speaker 2: were ahead, or was it always the point you'd leave
Speaker 2: was when you run out of money.
Speaker 3: I would leave when I was ahead, if I'd want
Speaker 3: a lot of money because I could justify to myself
Speaker 3: I've made up some of the losses, like this is okay,
Speaker 3: this is okay.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be at.
Speaker 3: A point where I need to borrow money. I'm not
Speaker 3: going to be at a point where my life is
Speaker 3: going to fall over and I'm not going to be
Speaker 3: able to pay my car, REGERL or eat. But I
Speaker 3: am going to walk out knowing that all the bills
Speaker 3: next week will be paid because I've won money.
Speaker 2: What's the most you can win in a don't what
Speaker 2: would you even call it?
Speaker 3: In South Australia, the limit is ten thousand dollars and
Speaker 3: if you win more than ten thousand dollars that money
Speaker 3: I don't know what happens to that money because I've
Speaker 3: never won more than ten thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: But have you won ten thousand dollars?
Speaker 3: The most I've ever won is four and a half.
Speaker 2: And then I guess the most you've ever won is
Speaker 2: four and a half in one session. But it's kind
Speaker 2: of meaningless me asking you what's the most you've ever
Speaker 2: lost in one session, because it's accumulation of the sessions
Speaker 2: that causes the harm, right exactly right.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can tell you individual sessions where I've
Speaker 3: lost quite a significant amount, like how much the figure, oh,
Speaker 3: like two three, four, five hundred dollars.
Speaker 4: But the figure that would be more.
Speaker 3: Meaningful for people listening and trying to understand addiction is
Speaker 3: over the course of my addiction, it would be two
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars or more. I would think that I've lost.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: And this is from a woman who was in a
Speaker 3: position where at any time there was supportive family that
Speaker 3: she could seek help from, but chose not to because
Speaker 3: of the shame and the fear associated with being judged
Speaker 3: for having this kind of an addiction.
Speaker 2: When you looked around, who are the people at the
Speaker 2: machines around you?
Speaker 3: So quite often people say that pokeis are an older
Speaker 3: person's game. In a way, that's true, but not for
Speaker 3: the entire span of the day. So younger people play
Speaker 3: the pokes at night. I've seen more than my fair
Speaker 3: share of couples who were younger sitting playing losing During
Speaker 3: the day. It's older people who might feel lonely and
Speaker 3: don't have anyone else to talk to, and it's a
Speaker 3: way of getting a cup of coffee and a smile
Speaker 3: when maybe during the day you wouldn't have anyone else
Speaker 3: to give that to you. So this is an industry
Speaker 3: that attracts people from all walks of life at any
Speaker 3: point in time, if you are susceptible to having issues.
Speaker 3: I don't think it discriminates by age. I've seen it
Speaker 3: across the board and across the spectrum.
Speaker 1: And do gamblers talk to each other while they're playing.
Speaker 3: It's really funny because I went in there with no
Speaker 3: intention to speak to anyone, and in fact, I'm not
Speaker 3: someone who will not encourage a conversation with a stranger,
Speaker 3: but in a gambling venue, no, don't talk to me.
Speaker 3: I'm not there to speak or make friends. I'm there
Speaker 3: to indulge in my addiction and leave without anybody seeing
Speaker 3: or interacting with me. But there's another element that I noticed,
Speaker 3: particularly towards the end of my addiction, which is people
Speaker 3: that make friends and sit there and have their coffee
Speaker 3: and play their small bets and talk to each other.
Speaker 3: So whether those people have a problem with gambling is
Speaker 3: only for them to say, I guess, But you can
Speaker 3: see it when you walk into a venue that there
Speaker 3: are people there like me who don't want to interact
Speaker 3: on this level in any way, shape or form, and
Speaker 3: there are people there who use it as a way
Speaker 3: of socializing.
Speaker 4: So a bit of both. I guess.
Speaker 2: Is there a sense of camaraderie when someone wins? Does
Speaker 2: everyone cheer in a way?
Speaker 3: But there are also jealous sight eyes and why is
Speaker 3: it that person and not me? There are also I
Speaker 3: think that staff are trained to make a big deal
Speaker 3: of people when they win. But what you might not
Speaker 3: see is that that person has been there for six
Speaker 3: hours and might be coming close to being even not
Speaker 3: a win. This is not a person walking out ahead.
Speaker 3: This is a person walking out with less loss than
Speaker 3: they might have if they'd stopped earlier.
Speaker 2: After this break, the moment that Anna hit rock bottom
Speaker 2: and realized that she had such a serious problem that
Speaker 2: was putting her financial, emotional, and physical safety at risk,
Speaker 2: and also the phone call that saved to life and
Speaker 2: it was with an unlikely person. Anna, can you give
Speaker 2: me some context over what period of time this happened?
Speaker 2: So you use the pokeys for the first time when
Speaker 2: you're eighteen with your grandfather. He died when you were
Speaker 2: twenty five, so that's seven years later, and you say
Speaker 2: that's when things got really bad.
Speaker 4: That's when it got really hard.
Speaker 2: So between eighteen and twenty five, how often were you
Speaker 2: going and would you have said that it was a
Speaker 2: problem in hindsight during that time, I.
Speaker 3: Would say maybe three times a week, maybe building up
Speaker 3: to four or five near the end of that period
Speaker 3: of time. I didn't ever see that my grandfather and
Speaker 3: I going together was a problem because it was our
Speaker 3: way of catching up, socializing, interacting with each other over
Speaker 3: something that we both liked to do. But I do
Speaker 3: remember going into the last year of my law degree
Speaker 3: and thinking I really should do something about this because
Speaker 3: people my age don't tend to hang around in pokey
Speaker 3: rooms when they've got gaps in between the days at UNI,
Speaker 3: So I was in classes with people who would come
Speaker 3: back with shopping bags or like yeah, in as a
Speaker 3: food or eat from breaks between classes, but not me.
Speaker 4: I would come back.
Speaker 3: I would sit in the back of lectures and try
Speaker 3: and hope that I wasn't going to repeat what I'd
Speaker 3: just done the next day.
Speaker 2: So it was around that time, when you're about twenty five,
Speaker 2: that you started going pretty much every day. Would you
Speaker 2: say that's right, yes, For how many hours at a time.
Speaker 3: I used it as a bit of a because I
Speaker 3: moved into full time work when I was sort of
Speaker 3: twenty six twenty seven when I finished my law degree,
Speaker 3: and I used it as an escape after work. So
Speaker 3: it started off as just half an hour an hour
Speaker 3: here and there. As it got worse, I would say
Speaker 3: two to three hours, sometimes seven days a week, sometimes
Speaker 3: less if I.
Speaker 4: Was feeling good or was busy for other reasons.
Speaker 3: But I also, at that period of time went through
Speaker 3: a period at work where I was quite badly bullied
Speaker 3: and didn't fancy being at home by myself, so I
Speaker 3: would use it as a way of not being alone
Speaker 3: with my own thoughts and other issues that I had
Speaker 3: to deal with at the time. I would, as good
Speaker 3: friends still say to me, pack my life full of
Speaker 3: crap so I don't have to think about the things
Speaker 3: that I really need to pay attention to, like this.
Speaker 2: When you're sliding into addiction, or my experience anyway, at
Speaker 2: first you think you've got control over it, and it
Speaker 2: starts as a little treat, and then you lose that control.
Speaker 1: But on the way down you make rules for yourself.
Speaker 2: In an attempt to regain control over it, and then
Speaker 2: you find yourself one by one breaking those rules. What
Speaker 2: are some of the rules that you made for yourself
Speaker 2: and broke?
Speaker 3: My brain still likes rules and symmetry, and I believe
Speaker 3: that it is directly attributed to this period of my life.
Speaker 3: So limits on how much I would spend or how
Speaker 3: long I would spen and in the venue always had
Speaker 3: to be even, so fifty.
Speaker 4: Dollars or an hour. I love a round number.
Speaker 3: I even still love around number when I'm filling up
Speaker 3: my car with petrol or something like that.
Speaker 4: Like it.
Speaker 3: It's su pervasive into other areas of black I always
Speaker 3: said to myself at various points, if you go in
Speaker 3: there and you talk to someone, maybe you've made somebody's
Speaker 3: day better. So that is a justification that I used
Speaker 3: as well. Another justification, you work really hard, You're allowed
Speaker 3: to have a few treats. You can spend your money
Speaker 3: how you like. All your bills are paid. This is
Speaker 3: not a problem. And the last one, and probably the
Speaker 3: most important one, is I'll just stop. I know I
Speaker 3: can do that whenever I want to. Yeah, but I
Speaker 3: did that a lot. Yeah, And it never was consistent.
Speaker 1: Where did you get your money from?
Speaker 3: So work, I had a bit of a problem with
Speaker 3: credit card debt for a while, which I paid off,
Speaker 3: but it resulted in some fairly creative accounting on my part.
Speaker 3: To make things work. I used all of my disposable
Speaker 3: income for gambling, and even now would consider that I
Speaker 3: am behind in where I wanted to be in my
Speaker 3: life because of the choices that I made in that period.
Speaker 2: What kind of financial danger did you put yourself in?
Speaker 3: There were times when I couldn't pay the bills. There
Speaker 3: were times when I had to borrow money to exist.
Speaker 3: There were times when I mean I never stole or
Speaker 3: did anything like that, but there were times when I
Speaker 3: considered it. And certainly, speaking with other people, we've lived
Speaker 3: experience in gambling harm went down that pathway, and I think,
Speaker 3: whatever kind of god ess is watching over us at
Speaker 3: the moment, that I never did, because I can see
Speaker 3: how easy it would be.
Speaker 1: Who was the first person that you told I think
Speaker 1: I've got a problem.
Speaker 3: I went through a raft of different therapies. So here
Speaker 3: in Adelaide there's the statewide gambling rehabilitation services.
Speaker 4: I went there.
Speaker 3: I went to relationships Australia. In terms of people in
Speaker 3: my life, parts of my family still don't know that
Speaker 3: this experience occurred for me. It probably was a doctor
Speaker 3: or a counselor at some point, because I went, I
Speaker 3: don't want to be a burden to anyone who loves me.
Speaker 3: I'm going to go and get external help, and I'm
Speaker 3: going to go and I'm going to have this therapy
Speaker 3: and we're not going to talk about it. We're just
Speaker 3: going to go through it and make it happen and
Speaker 3: it will be fine.
Speaker 1: No one needs to know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would have been a professional person of some kind,
Speaker 3: But I don't know.
Speaker 2: What was it that made you. Was it a particular
Speaker 2: thing that you went, Okay, I can't control this.
Speaker 1: I need help.
Speaker 3: It was one night when I was sitting on the
Speaker 3: bed at home, crying with a knife next to me,
Speaker 3: thinking this is enough. I can't do this anymore. And
Speaker 3: if my family ever found out what I've been through,
Speaker 3: it would be easier for me not to be here.
Speaker 3: So it got to the point where that was a
Speaker 3: real option for me, and I realized that I couldn't
Speaker 3: do that to my mum, and I couldn't do it
Speaker 3: to people around me who I knew would be there
Speaker 3: for me if I needed help, And I stopped and
Speaker 3: I went, I need to get help here, and I
Speaker 3: rang Lifeline and got referred to a number of different
Speaker 3: support services and ultimately ended up self excluding myself from
Speaker 3: gambling venues, which is what helped me stop.
Speaker 2: Can you explain that before you do, I just want
Speaker 2: to say thank God, thank God you reached out for
Speaker 2: help in that moment, Thank God, and thank you for
Speaker 2: thinking about your mum on behalf of moms couldn't not.
Speaker 3: My mum is an amazing woman and doesn't know a
Speaker 3: lot of this, so her and I are going to
Speaker 3: have a conversation before this comes out. But it is
Speaker 3: incredibly important to me that women here that if you're
Speaker 3: in that place, what I'm trying to do will help you.
Speaker 2: It's so generous of you to be this honest and
Speaker 2: talk about this, because I'm sure to save lives and
Speaker 2: I'm just so glad that reaching out saved yours. Do
Speaker 2: you remember what the person on the other end of
Speaker 2: the phone on lifeline said to you that night.
Speaker 4: I'll never forget that. I'll never forget that.
Speaker 3: And it's going to sound really trite, but I explained
Speaker 3: everything and I was crying. It was probably eleven, twelve
Speaker 3: o'clock at night, and it was an English woman. She
Speaker 3: let me talk and she let me cry, and she said, love,
Speaker 3: You're going to be okay, And I remember going, no,
Speaker 3: I'm not.
Speaker 4: How do you know that?
Speaker 3: And I'll still say that to people around me if
Speaker 3: I'm in because I manage anxiety and panic disorders at
Speaker 3: the moment as well, and I'll still say to people
Speaker 3: around me, how do you know I'm going to be okay?
Speaker 3: There's no evidence of that. And a very good friend
Speaker 3: of mine gave me a sticker that says, Anna, you
Speaker 3: have survived one hundred percent of your bad days. Because
Speaker 3: what that woman said to me was, Anna, you have
Speaker 3: survived one hundred percent of your bad days and you
Speaker 3: will continue to survive than I did.
Speaker 1: And I will, Yeah you will, Yeah you have.
Speaker 2: That's incredible, isn't it Funny? Has something that just seems
Speaker 2: so simple can just cut.
Speaker 1: Through, yeah, the despair years. But you need to hear
Speaker 1: it from someone else.
Speaker 3: And it was the shortest sentence from a woman I
Speaker 3: have never met and never will probably, But she talked
Speaker 3: me through putting the knife back in the kitchen draw.
Speaker 3: She talked me through having a shower and going to bed,
Speaker 3: and she said to me, here's what you need to
Speaker 3: do next. And we made a plan together that I believe.
Speaker 4: Saved my life.
Speaker 1: What was that plan?
Speaker 3: So the next morning we discussed how I was going
Speaker 3: to keep myself safe. We discussed the therapy services I
Speaker 3: was going to get in contact with. We made a
Speaker 3: plan together about if I was unsafe, who I was
Speaker 3: going to call. And she was on that list, but
Speaker 3: there were other people as well. And even now when
Speaker 3: women contact me talking about gambling harm, safety plans of
Speaker 3: what I say, I say, if you're in a position
Speaker 3: where you feel unsafe. I'm not a counselor and I'm
Speaker 3: not an expert, but I am a woman that survived this,
Speaker 3: and I know that the key to surviving yourself is
Speaker 3: making sure you're safe all the time.
Speaker 4: How are we going to keep you safe?
Speaker 1: Not all heroes were capes. Hey, oh sure that's true.
Speaker 1: And that woman.
Speaker 2: You know the people on the other end of the
Speaker 2: finite lifeline, they are extraordinary.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like any addiction, alcoholism or drugs, or sex or shopping,
Speaker 2: gambling is something that requires daily management. What does that
Speaker 2: actually look like for you?
Speaker 3: Well, the self exclusion program, I believe is the only
Speaker 3: reason why I stopped gambling. So the requirements for doing
Speaker 3: that vary from state to state.
Speaker 1: What does it mean?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, sure.
Speaker 3: The way you do it in Adelaide is you go
Speaker 3: to the Office of Consumer and Business Services, who manage
Speaker 3: the program, and you say, I have an issue with gambling.
Speaker 3: I would like to be banned from gambling venues and
Speaker 3: identify to them the venues that you would like to
Speaker 3: be banned from. But I knew for me that that
Speaker 3: wasn't going to work because if I knew the venues
Speaker 3: I was banned from, I'd just drive further out and
Speaker 3: pick a different one. So I said to them, I'm
Speaker 3: happy to do that, but I would like it to
Speaker 3: be a selection of venues within Adelaide, and I would
Speaker 3: like there to be a note within the order, because
Speaker 3: they make a formal order under the legislation barring you
Speaker 3: from entering the premises. I would like a note to
Speaker 3: be in the order that says I can only receive
Speaker 3: a copy and details of the venues that I am
Speaker 3: banned from if I ring up three separate times on
Speaker 3: three separate days to get the information. And the woman,
Speaker 3: luckily who I was speaking to assisting me through this process, said,
Speaker 3: we've never done that before, but that's a really good idea.
Speaker 4: I'm happy to do that.
Speaker 3: Talk me through that, because I knew if I didn't
Speaker 3: do that, I would be able to ring up get
Speaker 3: a list of the venues emailed to me within fifteen minutes,
Speaker 3: because I'd done it before when I said to them
Speaker 3: I need to be banned. Please ban me from the
Speaker 3: selection of venues and don't tell me what they are.
Speaker 3: Probably two months after that, I rang them and said,
Speaker 3: let me know what venues I'm banned from. I might
Speaker 3: want to add more.
Speaker 4: And I had the list in my inbox within fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2: So you tested the system, you found the weak points,
Speaker 2: and you almost designed a more full proof system.
Speaker 3: I did because I knew for me that if I
Speaker 3: had access to that information immediately I was stuffed.
Speaker 4: It wasn't going to work.
Speaker 3: But the thing with self exclusion, and this is the
Speaker 3: important part for me, is because I have a legal qualification,
Speaker 3: if I am found in a venue and that self
Speaker 3: exclusion order is enforced, it will affect my career.
Speaker 1: So the consequences are high.
Speaker 3: Yes, I had to put myself in a position where
Speaker 3: my life and livelihood would be threatened if I.
Speaker 4: Was found in a venue.
Speaker 1: He need stakes, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And they needed to be high. I needed to put
Speaker 3: the most important thing too me me on the line,
Speaker 3: which was my career, to enable me to succeed.
Speaker 2: There will be a lot of people listening to this
Speaker 2: who gambling harm is not the problem for them, but
Speaker 2: someone they love. You can't do that exclusion for someone else,
Speaker 2: can you.
Speaker 4: No, you can't.
Speaker 3: The person has to be involved, but there are support
Speaker 3: services out there who will help you negotiate that process.
Speaker 3: If the person doesn't want to be self excluded, you
Speaker 3: can't make them.
Speaker 4: They have to be ready to do that for you.
Speaker 1: Is it just Pokey's or is it other types of gambling.
Speaker 4: Only ever been just Poky's.
Speaker 2: When Pokey's got blocked, you didn't just go, Okay, i'll
Speaker 2: do sports better, I'll do something else.
Speaker 3: No, I didn't. But I had a bit of weird
Speaker 3: addiction transfer. In the first instance, I got obsessed with
Speaker 3: claw machines that you win toys from because I think
Speaker 3: that it's a similar kind of dopamine hit. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: I kind of once people in my life realized that
Speaker 3: that was a problem for me, because it became pretty
Speaker 3: obvious when I got good and won a whole bunch
Speaker 3: of toys and they were sitting in my place.
Speaker 4: People hang around going, yeah, you're a woman that's in
Speaker 4: her forties, why have you got hips of these toys?
Speaker 2: So oh, did you feel ashamed of that as well?
Speaker 2: Or could you kind of laugh about it?
Speaker 4: I was proud of it because I was good and
Speaker 4: I kept winning.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't called a bad word like it wasn't
Speaker 2: yeah right.
Speaker 3: But I've always had the kind of focus I guess
Speaker 3: where once I've committed to something, I go all out.
Speaker 3: Like a good friend says to me, I've got two speeds,
Speaker 3: super fast and stop. And my addiction and my problems
Speaker 3: with gambling were super fast and stop. Right now, I'm stop,
Speaker 3: but I believe that at any point, if I don't
Speaker 3: properly manage this, I'll go back to super.
Speaker 1: Fast after this shortbreak.
Speaker 2: How Anna stays so but how she stays on the wagon,
Speaker 2: And what not to do if someone in your life,
Speaker 2: someone you love, has a gambling addiction, have you fallen
Speaker 2: off the wagon? In the time between self exclusion and.
Speaker 3: Now, I've had one bad relay, but that was as
Speaker 3: a result of other issues that were happening in my life,
Speaker 3: and I was in a position where I knew that
Speaker 3: I wasn't banned where I was, so I was not
Speaker 3: in the Adelaide City area, and I was like, the
Speaker 3: venues right here. Everything in my life is crap, which
Speaker 3: is what the thought process was when this was really
Speaker 3: bad for me.
Speaker 4: I'll just do it. No one's going to know by myself.
Speaker 4: And it was bad.
Speaker 3: It was hundreds of dollars and it was really quick,
Speaker 3: and I had never played pokeys with note acceptors, and
Speaker 3: I was shocked at how quickly I lost the money.
Speaker 2: So what have you done to guard against that happening again?
Speaker 3: I've extended my self exclusion to the entire country and
Speaker 3: it was a bit of a process to get it done,
Speaker 3: but it's worth it for me because now I know
Speaker 3: I can go anywhere and feel safe knowing that I
Speaker 3: won't be in that situation where I might have the
Speaker 3: relapse again.
Speaker 2: When you have had those moments of relapse, how have
Speaker 2: you sort of forgiven yourself and loved yourself enough to
Speaker 2: get back on the wagon, Like because there's a real
Speaker 2: sense of, oh, well, it's all ruined now, like I
Speaker 2: may as well just forget it.
Speaker 3: It's always my mum because she's always been there for me,
Speaker 3: and I always think, if I can't, I'm going to cry.
Speaker 3: If I can't do this for myself, I'm going to
Speaker 3: do it for her because I love her so much.
Speaker 3: She's been through so much in her life and the
Speaker 3: last thing she needs is for me not to be tough.
Speaker 3: So I continue based on I'm from a long line
Speaker 3: of strong women, I can tell, and I want to
Speaker 3: make sure that that continues past me as well.
Speaker 1: How long have you been in recovery?
Speaker 4: Truly clean? Five years?
Speaker 3: Although the relapse that I just talked about was about
Speaker 3: four months ago and it was one day in my life,
Speaker 3: and I've accepted the fact that it occurred, but I
Speaker 3: still consider myself clean for five years. The period of
Speaker 3: severe addiction was certainly in my twenties, and there were
Speaker 3: periods of time throughout my thirties where it popped up
Speaker 3: again and then went down and popped up and went down.
Speaker 3: But yeah, the past five years have been gold for me.
Speaker 1: Are you in a lot of debt still from that time?
Speaker 4: Zero? I've paid it all off.
Speaker 1: Oh well, that must feel good.
Speaker 4: It was hard, but I did it.
Speaker 2: Has that made you feel like you've got some measure
Speaker 2: of control back in your life.
Speaker 3: It has, but it took me a long time to
Speaker 3: feel okay to deal with money. I've got some good
Speaker 3: friends who run a budgeting company who helped me a
Speaker 3: lot recognize the fact that I can manage money. I
Speaker 3: went to a fairly well known national provider of budgeting
Speaker 3: assistance who took my money off me and said, don't worry,
Speaker 3: we'll manage everything. And that put me back a bit
Speaker 3: because I went, hang, in a minute, my whole, the
Speaker 3: core of me and my recovery is being strung. If
Speaker 3: I don't have control over this, it's not going to work.
Speaker 3: So I am very glad to have transitioned out of
Speaker 3: that and to working with my friends and their company
Speaker 3: to help me get to the point where I feel
Speaker 3: okay to manage my money and pay my bills, and
Speaker 3: now I do.
Speaker 2: You work closely with the Alliance for Gambling Reform and
Speaker 2: an initiative called the Untangled Project, which is a not
Speaker 2: for profit space created by for and also with women
Speaker 2: recovering from gambling addictions. How are women's gambling addictions different
Speaker 2: from men's Because when you think about gambling, you often
Speaker 2: think of the face of gambling, of not just being
Speaker 2: an older person but being a man.
Speaker 3: So that's a really good question because women's participation in
Speaker 3: gambling is about the same percentage as men. There's about
Speaker 3: seventy percent of women in Australia will admit to engaging
Speaker 3: in gambling at least once a year, and a significant
Speaker 3: number of those, probably about a third, engage on a
Speaker 3: monthly basis. So the stats are about thirty five percent
Speaker 3: of women who engage on a monthly basis compared to
Speaker 3: about forty two percent of men. And I think that
Speaker 3: quite often when there's language around this issue, it's pitched
Speaker 3: as a man's problem. Men have problem with gambling. You
Speaker 3: see somebody losing lots of money, it's a man. In
Speaker 3: my opinion, this further stigmatizes women because women are just
Speaker 3: as vulnerable as men to this. And there's a wonderful
Speaker 3: woman called doctor Simone McCarthy who works at d COMMUNI,
Speaker 3: who has done some really good focused research on women
Speaker 3: and gambling, and her research actually says that half a
Speaker 3: percent of adult women were classed as problem gamblers. An
Speaker 3: additional one point five percent and five percent were classed
Speaker 3: as moderate and low risk gamblers. And when you do
Speaker 3: the stats and work that out, it corresponds to about
Speaker 3: one in ten women who gamble in the state of
Speaker 3: Victoria are at risk of experience in gambling harms. So
Speaker 3: those stats, to me are absolutely mind blowing, and it's
Speaker 3: why I created the Untangled Project because I think that
Speaker 3: the services for men are pitched at encouraging you to
Speaker 3: speak out, encouraging you to go, hey, mate, I've got
Speaker 3: a problem. We're going to speak about it, and we're
Speaker 3: going to make it public and make it so the
Speaker 3: only way you can recover is by being loud and
Speaker 3: out there.
Speaker 4: Women, in my.
Speaker 3: Experience and the women that I have spoken to may
Speaker 3: not necessarily want to do that, And my project aims
Speaker 3: to show women that they can interact with services in
Speaker 3: a way that's quiet. They can interact in a way
Speaker 3: that allows them to seek information if that's all they need,
Speaker 3: and read things. They can meet with people that are
Speaker 3: associated with my project in most states around the country
Speaker 3: for a coffee, if they need someone to have a
Speaker 3: chat to, or if they want to become more out there,
Speaker 3: there are opportunities to do speaking engagements there. I gave
Speaker 3: evidence in the Crown Casino Royal Commission on behalf of
Speaker 3: Alliance and myself as a lived experience, advocates. So the
Speaker 3: opportunities are there to speak up, but the language and
Speaker 3: the dialogue around this needs to change, because it's not
Speaker 3: just a man's problem.
Speaker 4: It is everybody's problem. Women just don't talk about it.
Speaker 2: I once read that the addictions women are most likely
Speaker 2: to suffer from the ones that aren't mind altering, because
Speaker 2: women have caring responsibilities in many cases, as opposed to
Speaker 2: alcohol and drugs, which are addictions, but they do alter
Speaker 2: your state of consciousness. When women have responsibilities, they will
Speaker 2: turn to things like food and gambling, which you can
Speaker 2: do while still being sober enough to take care of
Speaker 2: children or partners or elderly parents.
Speaker 4: Absolutely right.
Speaker 3: And one of the examples that a woman who I've
Speaker 3: been talking to gave to me was a marriage was
Speaker 3: breaking down, and at ten o'clock at night, if you
Speaker 3: need to get out of the house, where do you
Speaker 3: go to make sure you get that?
Speaker 4: You need to get back quickly.
Speaker 3: You want to go somewhere that keeps you safe, and
Speaker 3: as I mentioned before, or there's not very many places
Speaker 3: at that time of night that will let you in,
Speaker 3: give you a coffee, it's warm, You can spend half
Speaker 3: an hour they're everywhere, so close to your home and
Speaker 3: get back when you need to. So there's a lot
Speaker 3: of reasons women gamble, and there's a lot of reasons
Speaker 3: that women spend time in gambling venues. And the dialogue
Speaker 3: is just starting, I think, to be spoken. But my
Speaker 3: project hopefully will encourage that to be louder.
Speaker 2: We recently spoke on an episode if normally are out
Speaker 2: loud about the gambling companies being big sponsors of sport,
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of talk about that at the moment,
Speaker 2: and demands for legislation to ban the advertising of you know,
Speaker 2: things like sports bet and gambling in family TV shows
Speaker 2: and during sport and on.
Speaker 1: The jerseys of footy players.
Speaker 2: They have so much money and so much marketing power
Speaker 2: and that used to be something that cigarettes did as well. Right,
Speaker 2: it must make you, I mean, how do you feel
Speaker 2: about that conversation at the moment and the lobby groups
Speaker 2: like the big television networks and the sports clubs saying well,
Speaker 2: without this money from the gambling companies, we can't survive.
Speaker 3: I think that the gambling industry is using that conversation
Speaker 3: to target new groups who may not necessarily be as visible.
Speaker 3: So if you think about the way that tobacco companies
Speaker 3: did their advertising in the eighties, it was women in
Speaker 3: short skirts and looking sexy. Lately, gambling companies have started
Speaker 3: using I can't remember the name of the company, but
Speaker 3: they've started using influences to promote sports betting online, so
Speaker 3: targeting younger women who may follow that influencer and go, oh,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, this woman's associated with this gambling company.
Speaker 4: It must be okay.
Speaker 3: I mean, I am guilty of buying a bag that
Speaker 3: my favorite influencer was carrying around because I thought that
Speaker 3: it was right.
Speaker 2: That's where the word comes from. Their influential. They make
Speaker 2: us buy stuff and they make us do stuff exactly.
Speaker 3: So I think that if you look carefully, the gambling
Speaker 3: industry is jumping on board to different ways of pitching
Speaker 3: product to different markets, and women are one of them,
Speaker 3: and young women are one of them. So I think
Speaker 3: it's great that the dialogue is there around sports betting
Speaker 3: because I think it's a really important issue. But I
Speaker 3: think it's broader than what's being reported, because I think
Speaker 3: that new ways of targeting women are just starting to
Speaker 3: come out and need to be part of this discussion
Speaker 3: to be effectively managed because otherwise it's.
Speaker 4: Just going to harm more people.
Speaker 3: So the short answer is, I'm pleased that it's coming
Speaker 3: out into the open, but I'm not sure it's comprehensive
Speaker 3: enough to cover what I think needs.
Speaker 4: To be covered.
Speaker 1: Well, it's important.
Speaker 2: I'm proud to tell you that as a business, So
Speaker 2: we don't accept gambling advertising at Muma Maya because of
Speaker 2: the harm that it does, and because our purpose is
Speaker 2: to make the world a better place for women and girls.
Speaker 2: And I don't think anyone could argue that gambling makes
Speaker 2: the world a better place for anyone except the gambling
Speaker 2: companies who line their pockets. I just want to ask
Speaker 2: you two final questions. The first is about for the
Speaker 2: women and the men who are listening to this, who
Speaker 2: have someone in their life who has a problem with gambling,
Speaker 2: what should they do?
Speaker 1: How can they help?
Speaker 3: As I said, I'm not a counselor or any kind
Speaker 3: of expert, but what helped me was non judgmental listening
Speaker 3: and people not forcing me to do things, being able
Speaker 3: to have the autonomy to do and manage my own
Speaker 3: recovery when I was ready to do that. So, if
Speaker 3: it's your kid that's got a gambling problem. Sometimes all
Speaker 3: they need is for you to wrap them up in
Speaker 3: your arms and tell them that it's going to be okay.
Speaker 3: If it's a kid like me that was autonic in
Speaker 3: managing their recovery, my mum managed it perfectly. She said
Speaker 3: I'm here if you need me when she knew there
Speaker 3: were problems, but she never impacted or tried to insert
Speaker 3: herself into my life. So respecting people's autonomy and their
Speaker 3: recovery is paramount without taking over, because I think that
Speaker 3: if people try and take over a recovery process, it's
Speaker 3: not going to be successful.
Speaker 2: And so long as also the person is not spending
Speaker 2: your money. Absolutely right in a family situation, a lot
Speaker 2: of families are being driven to the brink by people
Speaker 2: spending the resources of the entire family, or of their partner,
Speaker 2: or of their mother or if their child.
Speaker 3: You don't have to come up with you, I mean,
Speaker 3: I guess the biggest thing I can say about that
Speaker 3: is there are allies out there who can help you.
Speaker 3: There are gambling therapy services in every state around the country.
Speaker 3: My project, I'm more than happy to take dms on
Speaker 3: my Instagram. So that's the Untangled project. AUS. I will
Speaker 3: point you and my team will YouTube services that can
Speaker 3: help you regardless of where you are in the country.
Speaker 3: We are people that do this in our spare time, though,
Speaker 3: so we are not an immediate help service. GPS are
Speaker 3: a wealth of knowledge and a source of support in
Speaker 3: this environment, and I think that even organizations like Beyond
Speaker 3: Blue information through the consumer and business services in your
Speaker 3: state or territory, wherever you are, quite often there's support
Speaker 3: services out there that aren't publicized. So it's just a
Speaker 3: matter of digging around and if I can point you
Speaker 3: in the right direction, I will.
Speaker 2: My last question is what's your little treat now? Gambling
Speaker 2: started is a little treat for you and descended into
Speaker 2: the pits of hell.
Speaker 1: What do you do now to give yourself a little treat?
Speaker 3: I have an embarrassing amount of books on my Kindle, if.
Speaker 1: I'm being honest.
Speaker 4: I my books.
Speaker 3: I've started to learn how to make jewelry, which I'm
Speaker 3: not very patient at but learning, and as part of
Speaker 3: my work in the project, what I've also done is
Speaker 3: started studying nutrition and fitness qualifications because I've had I'm
Speaker 3: a weight loss surgery patient and I've lost about eighty
Speaker 3: kilos all up, so I want to create another space
Speaker 3: for women who have had weight loss surgery where there's
Speaker 3: a network of pets who understand and help. So my
Speaker 3: treats for me are terrible, horrible, huge amounts of books,
Speaker 3: but I love and what gets me up in the
Speaker 3: morning is helping women. So creating spaces where trauma can
Speaker 3: be a victory rather than something that holds you back.
Speaker 4: So I consider that a treat and a privilege.
Speaker 2: What an amazing purpose. Anna, Thank you so much, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Friends.
Speaker 2: Anna did talk to her mum before this episode was released.
Speaker 2: We actually delayed it a little bit until she was
Speaker 2: ready to talk to her and then feel okay about
Speaker 2: it being out in the world. And I'm happy to
Speaker 2: tell you that their bond is as strong as ever
Speaker 2: as we thought it would be. Out to Anna's mum,
Speaker 2: if you're listening, and there's a phrase that I love
Speaker 2: and you may have heard me say before, someone out
Speaker 2: there has a wound in the shape of your words.
Speaker 2: And what it means is that by telling our stories
Speaker 2: about things that are vulnerable and sometimes shameful or difficult
Speaker 2: or embarrassing, or even things that we wish had never
Speaker 2: happened or that we could forget. By doing it, we
Speaker 2: actually pay forward a gift to other people who are
Speaker 2: going through something similar, and I have no doubt that
Speaker 2: there are many wounds out there that Anna's.
Speaker 1: Words will help to heal.
Speaker 2: Also, can I just say how amazing are the people
Speaker 2: who volunteer for Lifeline. We often link to Lifeline in
Speaker 2: our show notes, like we will today, but I just
Speaker 2: want to send a special message out to those of
Speaker 2: you who answer these phone calls at all hours from
Speaker 2: people who need love and care like Anna did. You
Speaker 2: are literally saving lives, and maybe I know that they
Speaker 2: always need more people to answer those phones. You might
Speaker 2: want to consider volunteering for Lifeline. I have friends who
Speaker 2: do it, and they say it is the most rewarding,
Speaker 2: enriching time they spend every week. One of the most
Speaker 2: interesting parts of Anna's story, I thought, is how different
Speaker 2: the needs of women are to men when it comes
Speaker 2: to getting help. And that's why her project Untangled is
Speaker 2: so brilliant. It's working to meet women where they are
Speaker 2: with the kind of help that they need, which is
Speaker 2: so important because there's not just one size fits all
Speaker 2: and one approach always works. So we'll link to Untangled
Speaker 2: in our show notes as well, and they say the
Speaker 2: best disinfectant is sunlight. It's so important we continue to
Speaker 2: bring these stories out of the shadows and the shame
Speaker 2: and really just shine a light on them so that
Speaker 2: we can help understand and support each other. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to Anna for doing just that. The
Speaker 2: executive producer of No Filter Isnama Brown. She got kicked
Speaker 2: out of Aino. Wants long story and she particularly wants
Speaker 2: to hear from you about interviews that you think.
Speaker 4: We should do.
Speaker 2: Stories you'd like us to tell. Maybe you have a
Speaker 2: story that you'd like to share. Maybe your words will
Speaker 2: match the wounds of someone out there. They don't just
Speaker 2: have to be sad stories. They can be happy stories,
Speaker 2: amazing stories. We really cover the gamut here on No Filter,
Speaker 2: so you'll find our email in the show notes drop
Speaker 2: us A line. Audio production and sound design on the
Speaker 2: show is by Tom Lyon and as our resident man,
Speaker 2: he's sick of seeing gambling ads targeting young men and
Speaker 2: infiltrating every sporting experience in Australia. As the mother of
Speaker 2: two young men, I bloody well agree. We don't accept
Speaker 2: gambling advertising on Mamma Mia. We never have because we
Speaker 2: know that gambling causes a lot of harm, and the
Speaker 2: victims of that harm so often are women. Anyway, thank
Speaker 2: you for listening.
Speaker 1: Lots of love,