WEBVTT - Anna Martin Almost Lost Her Life To Gambling 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. 0:00:13.925 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.525 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:19.885 --> 0:00:22.805 There were times when I couldn't pay the bills. There 0:00:22.805 --> 0:00:25.005 were times when I had to borrow money to exist. 0:00:25.445 --> 0:00:29.365 There were times when I mean I never stole or 0:00:30.125 --> 0:00:32.645 did anything like that, but there were times when I 0:00:32.685 --> 0:00:33.365 considered it. 0:00:43.405 --> 0:00:46.005 For Mamma Maya, this is no filter. I'm Meya Friedman. 0:00:46.405 --> 0:00:48.965 And sometimes we have people on this show who share 0:00:49.005 --> 0:00:51.845 a story that we know is going to literally save 0:00:51.965 --> 0:00:55.045 someone's life when they hear it. And this is one 0:00:55.085 --> 0:00:57.765 of those stories because you're about to meet Anna Martin. 0:01:02.045 --> 0:01:05.445 Anna is a recovering gambling addict who, as you're about 0:01:05.485 --> 0:01:09.245 to hear, almost lost her life to this insidious India. 0:01:12.965 --> 0:01:16.245 When you imagine a gambling at it, you probably imagine 0:01:16.285 --> 0:01:19.885 a man, because men are mostly who gambling's marketed to, 0:01:20.805 --> 0:01:22.525 and it's also who most of. 0:01:22.485 --> 0:01:24.565 The anti gambling. 0:01:24.085 --> 0:01:29.445 Support services are also aimed towards. And women who gamble, 0:01:29.765 --> 0:01:32.485 and there are so many of them. Women who gamble 0:01:32.605 --> 0:01:35.245 are really in the shadows, and that's where Anna was. 0:01:35.285 --> 0:01:36.045 In the shadows. 0:01:36.645 --> 0:01:39.965 She didn't want anyone to know about her gambling habits. 0:01:40.205 --> 0:01:43.845 She had such shame, and she also didn't want anyone 0:01:43.845 --> 0:01:46.205 to know about the risks that she was taking, the 0:01:46.285 --> 0:01:49.845 financial risks, the risk to her safety. She didn't want 0:01:49.845 --> 0:01:52.125 anyone to know how bad it got to the point 0:01:52.165 --> 0:01:56.925 where she almost lost her life. Shame and secrecy are killers. 0:01:56.925 --> 0:02:01.125 We know that, and gambling is shrouded in shame and secrecy. 0:02:01.845 --> 0:02:03.605 So it's no small thing for Anna. 0:02:03.365 --> 0:02:05.045 To share her story with us today. 0:02:06.365 --> 0:02:08.685 And I don't think there's an Australian alive who won't 0:02:08.685 --> 0:02:11.205 be able to really late to the way this story starts. 0:02:11.965 --> 0:02:16.445 It's with Anna at the pub with her family having lunch. 0:02:17.565 --> 0:02:21.645 Look, this was a construct within my family for many years. 0:02:21.765 --> 0:02:25.085 My grandfather, who is a core part of this journey 0:02:25.085 --> 0:02:28.485 for me, and my mother and my brother all rocked 0:02:28.565 --> 0:02:31.365 up to the same pub in Adelaide and had lunch 0:02:31.405 --> 0:02:35.325 together just about every weekend. So it was a core 0:02:35.405 --> 0:02:37.485 part of my childhood experiences. 0:02:37.965 --> 0:02:42.125 The Pokeys for our non Australian listeners, the poker machines, 0:02:42.325 --> 0:02:45.445 they would know them as you were there with your family. 0:02:45.685 --> 0:02:49.805 They're a ubiquitous part of Australian culture, probably a lot 0:02:49.845 --> 0:02:53.525 more so now than they were back then. Your grandfather, 0:02:53.605 --> 0:02:56.805 though even back then, was an avid user of the Pokeyes, 0:02:57.005 --> 0:02:57.605 wasn't he? 0:02:57.605 --> 0:02:58.445 He certainly was. 0:02:58.805 --> 0:03:00.605 What did that look like to you? 0:03:00.845 --> 0:03:03.565 So would it mean that he would have lunch with 0:03:03.645 --> 0:03:06.485 you and then he'd sort of scurry away? And how 0:03:06.525 --> 0:03:07.605 long would he spend there? 0:03:07.845 --> 0:03:09.245 What did you see? What did you notice? 0:03:09.365 --> 0:03:09.445 Yes? 0:03:10.205 --> 0:03:12.725 No, he never made it a big part of the 0:03:12.765 --> 0:03:16.965 outings that my family did together. He would always be 0:03:17.005 --> 0:03:20.845 at the table for lunch with us, and then afterwards 0:03:20.885 --> 0:03:23.085 there would be a period of time when my brother 0:03:23.125 --> 0:03:25.325 and I were younger, that he would go away into 0:03:25.405 --> 0:03:29.525 the Pokey's venue and spend some time, and quite often 0:03:29.565 --> 0:03:31.565 I could hear him speaking and laughing. 0:03:32.085 --> 0:03:33.765 And it was always a memory that. 0:03:33.765 --> 0:03:37.725 I associated with joy, because he would build up to it, 0:03:38.125 --> 0:03:41.045 he would make references to it, and quite often if 0:03:41.085 --> 0:03:43.085 I spoke to him on the phone during the week 0:03:43.325 --> 0:03:46.445 in between the lunches, he would say, it's happening. It's 0:03:46.485 --> 0:03:48.685 going to happen on Saturday, and we're going to win money. 0:03:48.685 --> 0:03:51.845 It's going to be amazing. So it was always a 0:03:51.925 --> 0:03:55.925 memory that was associated with joy and positivity, and the 0:03:56.085 --> 0:03:58.605 less positive side of it only came into play for 0:03:58.645 --> 0:04:00.125 me when I was an adult. 0:04:00.565 --> 0:04:04.805 I imagine it was also associated with sort of familiarity 0:04:04.845 --> 0:04:08.285 and safety, because that was your grandpa, right, and it 0:04:08.325 --> 0:04:11.325 was something that happened and in plain sight, even though 0:04:11.405 --> 0:04:14.525 kids weren't allowed to be around the Pokey's in that area, 0:04:14.885 --> 0:04:18.205 it did. It sort of seem exciting and a bit forbidden, 0:04:18.325 --> 0:04:21.205 but quite joyous, not furtive. 0:04:21.325 --> 0:04:21.885 Did it. Ever? 0:04:22.525 --> 0:04:26.205 The venuine question was the pokies were quite close to 0:04:26.245 --> 0:04:29.565 the eating areas, so we're talking about a sheet of 0:04:29.605 --> 0:04:32.805 glass that was frosted that you couldn't see through. But 0:04:33.285 --> 0:04:37.285 all I remember was the laughing. I remember the coins 0:04:37.325 --> 0:04:40.885 clinking in the cups before note acceptors came in. I 0:04:40.965 --> 0:04:44.445 remember people coming out with smiles on their faces. And 0:04:44.485 --> 0:04:47.845 it was at this particular venue, never something that I 0:04:47.965 --> 0:04:51.245 considered unacceptable, even though I'm sure there were parts of 0:04:51.285 --> 0:04:54.925 it that I didn't see as a child, with people 0:04:54.965 --> 0:04:58.925 being upset, people losing their money, people coming out wondering 0:04:58.965 --> 0:05:00.765 how they were going to put food on the table. 0:05:00.805 --> 0:05:02.845 But as a kid, you don't pick up on those 0:05:02.965 --> 0:05:03.685 kinds of cues. 0:05:03.805 --> 0:05:06.845 I don't think, Yeah, it's funny when you speak, you've 0:05:06.885 --> 0:05:11.245 got a really happy expression, like you're smiling in a 0:05:11.285 --> 0:05:15.525 really happy way, like you do when we look back 0:05:15.565 --> 0:05:19.845 on a happy memory. In high school, your family went 0:05:19.885 --> 0:05:22.445 through some changes. Your parents got a divorce, which took 0:05:22.485 --> 0:05:27.285 a big emotional toll on you. And throughout that time 0:05:27.325 --> 0:05:29.365 you were really close to your grandfather. 0:05:29.485 --> 0:05:30.845 Tell me a little bit about him. 0:05:31.285 --> 0:05:35.645 Oh, amazing man. So my grandfather was a banker and 0:05:35.805 --> 0:05:38.645 maintained a personal bank account with a reserve bank right 0:05:38.725 --> 0:05:41.645 up until he died. He was involved in the delivery 0:05:41.685 --> 0:05:46.405 of decimal currency to banks around Adelaide and was considered 0:05:46.445 --> 0:05:49.245 too important to go to war because of his role there. 0:05:49.845 --> 0:05:51.085 As I was growing. 0:05:50.845 --> 0:05:53.525 Up, he taught me to love books and words and 0:05:53.645 --> 0:05:58.565 reading and gave me my incredibly stupid and low bar 0:05:58.805 --> 0:06:02.205 humor that I still enjoy today. Probably one of the 0:06:02.245 --> 0:06:05.525 smartest people I've ever met. And when he died in 0:06:05.645 --> 0:06:09.045 two thousand and five that the memory of him passing 0:06:09.165 --> 0:06:11.965 was on the day that the sky show occurred in Adelaide. 0:06:12.325 --> 0:06:13.285 So the sky Show, for. 0:06:13.245 --> 0:06:16.885 People that don't know, is a firework show that happens 0:06:16.965 --> 0:06:20.885 usually on Australia Day. And I remember my mum had 0:06:20.925 --> 0:06:23.405 called us and let us know that he had passed, 0:06:23.445 --> 0:06:26.445 and it was just when the fireworks were starting, and 0:06:26.685 --> 0:06:30.005 a core memory of that for me is me going, wow, Okay, 0:06:30.085 --> 0:06:32.925 so he's moving on to the next part of his life. 0:06:32.925 --> 0:06:35.325 He's done all he can here and here is the 0:06:35.365 --> 0:06:37.805 welcome journey for him to the next stage. 0:06:38.085 --> 0:06:40.005 Oh, that's such a beautiful way of looking at it. 0:06:40.085 --> 0:06:41.325 I've got a real sense of him. 0:06:41.485 --> 0:06:42.245 I almost cried. 0:06:42.525 --> 0:06:43.885 Yeah, I'm almost. 0:06:43.525 --> 0:06:45.565 Crying, Like looking at your face. I've got a real 0:06:45.645 --> 0:06:48.525 sense of him. And I don't know if I spoke 0:06:48.605 --> 0:06:52.005 about my only met one of my grandfathers, but I 0:06:52.045 --> 0:06:54.805 don't know if I spoke about him. I loved him 0:06:54.845 --> 0:06:57.125 and he was great, but I didn't have that sole 0:06:57.205 --> 0:06:59.365 connection with him that it sounds like you had with 0:06:59.405 --> 0:07:00.005 your grandfather. 0:07:00.045 --> 0:07:01.165 How old were you when he died. 0:07:01.925 --> 0:07:04.245 I was twenty five. I was just at the end 0:07:04.285 --> 0:07:08.405 of my law degree and he passed just as I 0:07:08.445 --> 0:07:12.245 was sort of finishing final exam. So difficult time in 0:07:12.285 --> 0:07:15.645 my life to manage that kind of bereavement, but incredibly hard. 0:07:15.765 --> 0:07:18.725 Miss him every day and have his initials tattooed on 0:07:18.765 --> 0:07:21.525 the inside of my wrist so I remember him. 0:07:21.805 --> 0:07:24.285 Was he rich, No, not at all, because when you 0:07:24.325 --> 0:07:26.845 say he's a banker and he had an account with 0:07:26.885 --> 0:07:27.565 the Reserve Bank. 0:07:27.725 --> 0:07:30.085 If you asked him that question, he would laugh. He 0:07:30.205 --> 0:07:32.965 was from a working class family and he was the 0:07:33.005 --> 0:07:36.205 sole breadwinner. My grandmother was a stay at home wife 0:07:36.525 --> 0:07:41.165 and parent, and although they didn't have much money, especially 0:07:41.245 --> 0:07:43.965 in the early parts of their lives, their family never 0:07:44.045 --> 0:07:45.005 wanted for anything. 0:07:45.485 --> 0:07:48.885 When you turned eighteen, Anna, what did your grandfather give 0:07:48.885 --> 0:07:49.885 you as a present? 0:07:51.085 --> 0:07:53.965 He gave me money. I remember that, and he also 0:07:55.165 --> 0:08:00.005 gave me, almost like rites of passage experiences. So the 0:08:00.005 --> 0:08:02.445 pokes was one. He tried to get me to drink. 0:08:02.485 --> 0:08:05.965 That didn't work. I still don't drink. And he gave 0:08:06.005 --> 0:08:08.645 me books because he and I had always given each 0:08:08.685 --> 0:08:12.605 other books, and that became a core part of how 0:08:12.645 --> 0:08:16.645 we interacted, was over books and reading and stories, as well. 0:08:16.565 --> 0:08:18.845 As part of the money that he gave you, it 0:08:18.925 --> 0:08:21.725 was a cup of coins, certainly was so you could 0:08:21.765 --> 0:08:24.845 have your first legal spin on the pokes. Do you 0:08:24.845 --> 0:08:27.085 remember that first experience on the machine? 0:08:27.565 --> 0:08:28.125 I do. 0:08:28.285 --> 0:08:31.045 I remember, because, as I said, there was a pane 0:08:31.045 --> 0:08:33.765 of frosted glass that you had to walk behind to 0:08:33.845 --> 0:08:37.805 get into the area, and I remember going, wow, I've 0:08:37.845 --> 0:08:40.325 always been on the other side of this glass. Now 0:08:40.365 --> 0:08:43.005 I'm walking around to finally see what makes all these 0:08:43.005 --> 0:08:46.165 people so happy. And it might not have been on 0:08:46.205 --> 0:08:49.605 my very first experience, but this is a common experience 0:08:49.645 --> 0:08:52.445 of people that struggle with gambling harm is. I had 0:08:52.445 --> 0:08:55.325 a big wind fairly early, and I was eighteen, So 0:08:55.365 --> 0:08:58.125 we're only talking a couple one hundred dollars, which was 0:08:58.165 --> 0:09:02.325 more than I made in my week's earnings at KFC, 0:09:02.405 --> 0:09:05.005 where I worked at the time, and that to me 0:09:05.165 --> 0:09:08.725 seemed like an amazing thing to do and an amazing 0:09:08.765 --> 0:09:11.725 way of suring that I was going to make this 0:09:11.845 --> 0:09:13.725 kind of money all the time. And who would do 0:09:13.765 --> 0:09:17.285 part time work given that so close to me starting this, 0:09:17.885 --> 0:09:19.085 I was so successful. 0:09:19.485 --> 0:09:21.965 How much money did you have to put in to 0:09:22.085 --> 0:09:24.245 win that few hundred dollars? 0:09:24.685 --> 0:09:26.605 Do you think, Oh, look, it wouldn't have been much 0:09:26.645 --> 0:09:29.485 more than twenty thirty forty dollars. Like, we're not talking 0:09:29.525 --> 0:09:32.085 a lot of money at all. I don't remember the 0:09:32.165 --> 0:09:34.765 exact amount, but that was the we intended to go 0:09:34.925 --> 0:09:38.205 up to. When he was handing over money as gifts, 0:09:38.205 --> 0:09:41.285 which as a young adult you're always grateful for when 0:09:41.325 --> 0:09:44.245 struggling with part time work, But it wasn't a lot 0:09:44.525 --> 0:09:47.325 like we're talking very very small amount to win what 0:09:47.445 --> 0:09:49.125 I considered a very large one. 0:09:49.605 --> 0:09:52.805 You're right that at first you gambled alongside your grandfather 0:09:52.885 --> 0:09:55.965 as a sort of a bonding activity. You did it together. 0:09:57.285 --> 0:09:59.965 When did you first gamble alone? Do you remember that time? 0:10:00.485 --> 0:10:01.005 I do? 0:10:01.245 --> 0:10:04.805 It was when I started university in Adelaide City. So 0:10:04.845 --> 0:10:06.885 I went to the University of Adelaide and started my 0:10:06.965 --> 0:10:11.125 law degree and my art's degree and realized pretty quickly 0:10:11.285 --> 0:10:14.325 that pokeys were on every corner and they still are. 0:10:14.925 --> 0:10:19.125 So made my way across North Terrace into the venues 0:10:19.445 --> 0:10:23.885 when I had breaks between lectures and dutes, and used 0:10:24.405 --> 0:10:28.845 pokies as an escape and escape from study and escape 0:10:28.845 --> 0:10:31.645 from work. I was working really hard in the early 0:10:31.685 --> 0:10:35.365 part of my tertiary study as well, and it quickly 0:10:35.405 --> 0:10:38.685 became a hobby that was destructive. 0:10:40.125 --> 0:10:44.245 How did you feel when you were actually putting the 0:10:44.285 --> 0:10:46.525 money in and pulling that lever. 0:10:47.445 --> 0:10:51.045 I think that a lot of people who experienced gambling harm, 0:10:51.045 --> 0:10:54.805 and myself included, say that it doesn't feel like real money. 0:10:55.525 --> 0:10:58.845 It's almost fake, like you think of it almost like 0:10:58.925 --> 0:11:02.085 monopoly money. And I referred to that period of my 0:11:02.165 --> 0:11:06.245 life sometimes as the Disney theory of living, which is 0:11:06.365 --> 0:11:10.565 everything will workout fine, provided i'd just believe that it will. 0:11:11.125 --> 0:11:14.965 And there was more times than once that money went 0:11:15.005 --> 0:11:17.285 in and I went, oh, it's okay, I'll just get more. 0:11:17.525 --> 0:11:19.685 More will come next week after I've done more work. 0:11:19.725 --> 0:11:23.285 And I never had a rational kind of hang on 0:11:23.325 --> 0:11:25.165 a minute, what are you doing? All your money's gone, 0:11:25.565 --> 0:11:27.645 there's not going to be more until you earn more. 0:11:28.085 --> 0:11:29.405 Until I was much older. 0:11:30.045 --> 0:11:32.805 So the money that you put into the machine, and 0:11:32.845 --> 0:11:36.085 I imagine it's one and two dollar coins. 0:11:36.245 --> 0:11:38.925 One dollar coins when I was doing it, So when 0:11:38.965 --> 0:11:43.205 I started playing pokeys, it was before the note acceptors 0:11:43.245 --> 0:11:46.685 came in. So quite often now machines will just take banknotes. 0:11:47.805 --> 0:11:51.765 Pokis in Adelaide only took one dollar coins at that time. 0:11:52.525 --> 0:11:54.805 And where do you get the coins from? So you'd 0:11:54.805 --> 0:11:57.845 go to the like what was your routine before you 0:11:57.885 --> 0:11:58.765 went and played the poking? 0:11:58.885 --> 0:12:00.485 So there are two ways of doing it. 0:12:00.645 --> 0:12:04.205 You can approach the person working in the venue who 0:12:04.245 --> 0:12:07.925 will change your banknote for dollar coins, or quite often 0:12:07.965 --> 0:12:10.325 there was an automatic machine where you put your note in, 0:12:10.405 --> 0:12:12.085 you put a cup down the bottom and the coins 0:12:12.125 --> 0:12:14.045 drop down into the cup based on the note that 0:12:14.125 --> 0:12:18.845 you've put in. So I quite often would approach the 0:12:18.885 --> 0:12:22.445 person in the venue initially, but if I was getting 0:12:22.445 --> 0:12:24.445 to the point where I felt like I was losing 0:12:24.445 --> 0:12:26.805 a significant amount of money, there would be a level 0:12:26.885 --> 0:12:30.845 of shame associated with interacting with anyone in the venue, 0:12:31.005 --> 0:12:33.885 and then I would go back to the change machine 0:12:34.205 --> 0:12:36.005 and I would try and make it so no one 0:12:36.125 --> 0:12:39.845 was around if I was in that headspace, because to me, 0:12:40.925 --> 0:12:43.885 the shame was almost too great to bear, even at 0:12:43.885 --> 0:12:47.045 that early stage and losing what in the scheme of 0:12:47.125 --> 0:12:51.005 things as my addiction grew, was relatively small amounts. 0:12:50.685 --> 0:12:53.485 When you first started, did you have caps for yourself, 0:12:53.565 --> 0:12:55.885 like limits, I'll spend this much today? 0:12:56.365 --> 0:12:57.965 Yeah, I did that lots and. 0:12:57.845 --> 0:12:59.205 What were they at first? 0:12:59.845 --> 0:13:03.685 So anyone who's experienced gambling harm will tell you they 0:13:03.725 --> 0:13:07.125 hate twenty dollar notes because twenty dollars is an automatic 0:13:07.245 --> 0:13:10.405 limit that a lot of people set for themselves. It 0:13:10.445 --> 0:13:13.205 was always only ever going to be twenty. Then I 0:13:13.285 --> 0:13:15.645 allowed it to be fifty on bad days, and it 0:13:15.685 --> 0:13:16.605 crept up from there. 0:13:17.445 --> 0:13:20.765 What made you make the decision to go past your limit? 0:13:21.285 --> 0:13:24.645 If you can explain to someone who doesn't know what 0:13:24.685 --> 0:13:27.165 addiction feels like, because I guess it's the same as 0:13:27.405 --> 0:13:29.725 what makes you go past your limit of drinking or 0:13:29.845 --> 0:13:31.085 drugs or doing anything. 0:13:31.765 --> 0:13:35.045 What makes you go past your limit is for me, 0:13:36.005 --> 0:13:39.085 parts of my life were crap. I was struggling with 0:13:39.165 --> 0:13:42.805 mental health issues. I didn't understand the way that some 0:13:42.925 --> 0:13:46.845 things were unfolding in my family. And when I deserve this, 0:13:47.005 --> 0:13:49.565 I deserve to win because other parts of my life 0:13:49.565 --> 0:13:53.045 were crap. So even if I went past the self 0:13:53.045 --> 0:13:57.485 imposed limit, it didn't matter because I deserved the positive outcome, 0:13:57.605 --> 0:13:59.125 which came so rarely. 0:14:00.005 --> 0:14:04.685 When I was struggling with bolimia, I would feel a 0:14:04.685 --> 0:14:08.045 certain way in my body when I was going and 0:14:08.085 --> 0:14:12.005 buying food to binge with, and then I would sort 0:14:12.045 --> 0:14:15.245 of feel a level of agitation and sort of almost 0:14:15.245 --> 0:14:19.605 arousal in the anticipation period. When I was actually binging 0:14:20.125 --> 0:14:22.685 or throwing up, it would kind of be like a 0:14:22.725 --> 0:14:26.165 really numb feeling. How did it feel for you the 0:14:26.245 --> 0:14:30.085 different parts of your experience each time you went and 0:14:30.165 --> 0:14:30.565 played the. 0:14:30.485 --> 0:14:33.925 Pokey's when you enter a venue, Well, when I enter 0:14:33.965 --> 0:14:38.325 a venue, it's the similar feeling of it's excitement, It's 0:14:38.845 --> 0:14:41.525 where nobody's going to get me, nobody's going to ask 0:14:41.565 --> 0:14:44.285 me why I'm here. Nobody's going to make me justify 0:14:44.365 --> 0:14:47.485 my existence. Nobody's going to say to me how you feeling, 0:14:47.605 --> 0:14:50.645 explain it to me, and I can just be by 0:14:50.685 --> 0:14:53.285 myself and do what I like to do, which is 0:14:53.365 --> 0:14:56.165 try and win money. But as time in the venue 0:14:56.205 --> 0:14:59.925 goes on, and if you look around a pokey venue, 0:15:00.005 --> 0:15:02.245 quite often there's not a clock and quite often there 0:15:02.285 --> 0:15:05.845 aren't windows. And there's a reason for that because people 0:15:05.885 --> 0:15:09.165 get almost into like a robotic state of existence where 0:15:09.165 --> 0:15:12.085 they think, if I just put in a little bit more, 0:15:12.405 --> 0:15:14.845 I'll win. If I can just put in a little 0:15:14.885 --> 0:15:17.165 bit more, have a big one, I won't tell anyone 0:15:17.245 --> 0:15:19.205 and we'll all get on with life. It'll be fine. 0:15:19.365 --> 0:15:22.365 So if you think about it like a curve, you 0:15:22.445 --> 0:15:25.085 go up to the top of the curve up here, 0:15:25.165 --> 0:15:29.325 you hit a numb state. You stay there until the 0:15:29.365 --> 0:15:31.485 point where you go, wait a minute, I'm in a 0:15:31.525 --> 0:15:35.125 situation that's really not constructive for me, and you take 0:15:35.165 --> 0:15:38.605 a very sharp decline. And that was normally when I 0:15:38.685 --> 0:15:41.845 left once I realized what the reality of what I've 0:15:41.885 --> 0:15:44.045 been doing meant for my life. 0:15:44.725 --> 0:15:47.525 What would make you have that realization and crossing to 0:15:47.645 --> 0:15:48.605 that stage. 0:15:48.325 --> 0:15:50.725 When i'd drawn out of money, when I got to 0:15:50.765 --> 0:15:53.245 the point where my shame was so great I couldn't 0:15:53.285 --> 0:15:56.605 look anybody in the eye in the venue, or when 0:15:56.645 --> 0:15:59.325 it was getting to the point where I felt unsafe. 0:15:59.405 --> 0:16:02.205 So quite often I would gamble or play the pokies 0:16:02.285 --> 0:16:04.205 to the point where it was quite late at night. 0:16:04.405 --> 0:16:06.845 I was living by myself, there was no reason or 0:16:07.085 --> 0:16:09.925 thought for me to go home, so I would gamble 0:16:09.925 --> 0:16:12.525 toll ten o'clock at night, and as a single woman 0:16:12.645 --> 0:16:14.765 in a pub at ten o'clock at night where people 0:16:14.845 --> 0:16:18.645 have been drinking, it's not always the safest environment. And 0:16:18.885 --> 0:16:20.725 I got to the point some nights where I went, 0:16:20.805 --> 0:16:22.485 I don't feel safe. I had to get out of here, 0:16:22.645 --> 0:16:25.405 and that would be the trigger for me leaving. If 0:16:25.405 --> 0:16:27.005 I was still at the point where I was winning 0:16:27.085 --> 0:16:29.605 or had a lot of money, or I was knowing 0:16:29.605 --> 0:16:31.005 that I had to get up for work the next 0:16:31.045 --> 0:16:34.405 day would sometimes be a trigger as well. But there 0:16:34.485 --> 0:16:38.205 are a raft of ways you can justify extra time 0:16:38.245 --> 0:16:38.805 to yourself. 0:16:39.845 --> 0:16:41.805 Would you ever leave when you were winning, when you 0:16:41.845 --> 0:16:44.525 were ahead, or was it always the point you'd leave 0:16:44.605 --> 0:16:46.125 was when you run out of money. 0:16:46.485 --> 0:16:48.565 I would leave when I was ahead, if I'd want 0:16:48.645 --> 0:16:52.325 a lot of money because I could justify to myself 0:16:52.325 --> 0:16:54.885 I've made up some of the losses, like this is okay, 0:16:55.125 --> 0:16:55.845 this is okay. 0:16:56.285 --> 0:16:57.205 I'm not going to be at. 0:16:57.085 --> 0:16:59.205 A point where I need to borrow money. I'm not 0:16:59.245 --> 0:17:01.645 going to be at a point where my life is 0:17:01.645 --> 0:17:03.045 going to fall over and I'm not going to be 0:17:03.085 --> 0:17:06.685 able to pay my car, REGERL or eat. But I 0:17:06.765 --> 0:17:09.205 am going to walk out knowing that all the bills 0:17:09.445 --> 0:17:11.405 next week will be paid because I've won money. 0:17:12.005 --> 0:17:15.205 What's the most you can win in a don't what 0:17:15.205 --> 0:17:16.165 would you even call it? 0:17:16.205 --> 0:17:19.365 In South Australia, the limit is ten thousand dollars and 0:17:19.645 --> 0:17:22.205 if you win more than ten thousand dollars that money 0:17:22.285 --> 0:17:24.045 I don't know what happens to that money because I've 0:17:24.085 --> 0:17:25.925 never won more than ten thousand dollars. 0:17:25.965 --> 0:17:27.805 But have you won ten thousand dollars? 0:17:28.325 --> 0:17:30.525 The most I've ever won is four and a half. 0:17:30.885 --> 0:17:33.045 And then I guess the most you've ever won is 0:17:33.085 --> 0:17:36.005 four and a half in one session. But it's kind 0:17:36.045 --> 0:17:38.285 of meaningless me asking you what's the most you've ever 0:17:38.325 --> 0:17:42.725 lost in one session, because it's accumulation of the sessions 0:17:43.085 --> 0:17:45.765 that causes the harm, right exactly right. 0:17:46.085 --> 0:17:48.565 I mean, I can tell you individual sessions where I've 0:17:48.605 --> 0:17:52.245 lost quite a significant amount, like how much the figure, oh, 0:17:52.405 --> 0:17:54.805 like two three, four, five hundred dollars. 0:17:54.845 --> 0:17:56.765 But the figure that would be more. 0:17:56.605 --> 0:18:01.245 Meaningful for people listening and trying to understand addiction is 0:18:01.325 --> 0:18:03.565 over the course of my addiction, it would be two 0:18:03.645 --> 0:18:07.045 hundred thousand dollars or more. I would think that I've lost. 0:18:07.525 --> 0:18:07.765 Wow. 0:18:08.125 --> 0:18:10.605 And this is from a woman who was in a 0:18:10.645 --> 0:18:13.565 position where at any time there was supportive family that 0:18:13.645 --> 0:18:16.725 she could seek help from, but chose not to because 0:18:16.765 --> 0:18:20.405 of the shame and the fear associated with being judged 0:18:20.565 --> 0:18:22.005 for having this kind of an addiction. 0:18:22.965 --> 0:18:25.365 When you looked around, who are the people at the 0:18:25.405 --> 0:18:26.365 machines around you? 0:18:27.045 --> 0:18:30.885 So quite often people say that pokeis are an older 0:18:31.085 --> 0:18:35.485 person's game. In a way, that's true, but not for 0:18:36.085 --> 0:18:39.725 the entire span of the day. So younger people play 0:18:39.765 --> 0:18:43.245 the pokes at night. I've seen more than my fair 0:18:43.285 --> 0:18:48.765 share of couples who were younger sitting playing losing During 0:18:48.805 --> 0:18:52.725 the day. It's older people who might feel lonely and 0:18:52.805 --> 0:18:54.645 don't have anyone else to talk to, and it's a 0:18:54.685 --> 0:18:56.685 way of getting a cup of coffee and a smile 0:18:57.845 --> 0:19:00.605 when maybe during the day you wouldn't have anyone else 0:19:00.605 --> 0:19:04.405 to give that to you. So this is an industry 0:19:05.205 --> 0:19:08.445 that attracts people from all walks of life at any 0:19:08.525 --> 0:19:12.965 point in time, if you are susceptible to having issues. 0:19:13.085 --> 0:19:15.605 I don't think it discriminates by age. I've seen it 0:19:15.645 --> 0:19:17.685 across the board and across the spectrum. 0:19:18.045 --> 0:19:20.405 And do gamblers talk to each other while they're playing. 0:19:21.325 --> 0:19:24.325 It's really funny because I went in there with no 0:19:24.485 --> 0:19:28.765 intention to speak to anyone, and in fact, I'm not 0:19:28.885 --> 0:19:32.765 someone who will not encourage a conversation with a stranger, 0:19:33.405 --> 0:19:36.285 but in a gambling venue, no, don't talk to me. 0:19:36.405 --> 0:19:38.805 I'm not there to speak or make friends. I'm there 0:19:38.885 --> 0:19:44.445 to indulge in my addiction and leave without anybody seeing 0:19:44.565 --> 0:19:48.445 or interacting with me. But there's another element that I noticed, 0:19:48.525 --> 0:19:52.485 particularly towards the end of my addiction, which is people 0:19:52.525 --> 0:19:55.325 that make friends and sit there and have their coffee 0:19:55.365 --> 0:19:57.565 and play their small bets and talk to each other. 0:19:57.725 --> 0:20:01.885 So whether those people have a problem with gambling is 0:20:01.925 --> 0:20:05.365 only for them to say, I guess, But you can 0:20:05.445 --> 0:20:07.565 see it when you walk into a venue that there 0:20:07.605 --> 0:20:10.525 are people there like me who don't want to interact 0:20:10.645 --> 0:20:13.245 on this level in any way, shape or form, and 0:20:13.285 --> 0:20:15.325 there are people there who use it as a way 0:20:15.365 --> 0:20:16.205 of socializing. 0:20:16.485 --> 0:20:19.005 So a bit of both. I guess. 0:20:19.525 --> 0:20:21.965 Is there a sense of camaraderie when someone wins? Does 0:20:21.965 --> 0:20:24.085 everyone cheer in a way? 0:20:24.165 --> 0:20:28.525 But there are also jealous sight eyes and why is 0:20:28.565 --> 0:20:32.445