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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: There were times when I couldn't pay the bills. There

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Speaker 3: were times when I had to borrow money to exist.

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Speaker 3: There were times when I mean I never stole or

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Speaker 3: did anything like that, but there were times when I

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Speaker 3: considered it.

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Speaker 2: For Mamma Maya, this is no filter. I'm Meya Friedman.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes we have people on this show who share

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Speaker 2: a story that we know is going to literally save

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Speaker 2: someone's life when they hear it. And this is one

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Speaker 2: of those stories because you're about to meet Anna Martin.

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Speaker 2: Anna is a recovering gambling addict who, as you're about

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Speaker 2: to hear, almost lost her life to this insidious India.

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Speaker 2: When you imagine a gambling at it, you probably imagine

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Speaker 2: a man, because men are mostly who gambling's marketed to,

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Speaker 2: and it's also who most of.

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Speaker 1: The anti gambling.

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Speaker 2: Support services are also aimed towards. And women who gamble,

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Speaker 2: and there are so many of them. Women who gamble

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Speaker 2: are really in the shadows, and that's where Anna was.

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Speaker 1: In the shadows.

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Speaker 2: She didn't want anyone to know about her gambling habits.

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Speaker 2: She had such shame, and she also didn't want anyone

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Speaker 2: to know about the risks that she was taking, the

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Speaker 2: financial risks, the risk to her safety. She didn't want

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Speaker 2: anyone to know how bad it got to the point

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Speaker 2: where she almost lost her life. Shame and secrecy are killers.

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Speaker 2: We know that, and gambling is shrouded in shame and secrecy.

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Speaker 2: So it's no small thing for Anna.

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Speaker 1: To share her story with us today.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think there's an Australian alive who won't

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Speaker 2: be able to really late to the way this story starts.

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Speaker 2: It's with Anna at the pub with her family having lunch.

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Speaker 3: Look, this was a construct within my family for many years.

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Speaker 3: My grandfather, who is a core part of this journey

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Speaker 3: for me, and my mother and my brother all rocked

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Speaker 3: up to the same pub in Adelaide and had lunch

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Speaker 3: together just about every weekend. So it was a core

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Speaker 3: part of my childhood experiences.

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Speaker 2: The Pokeys for our non Australian listeners, the poker machines,

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Speaker 2: they would know them as you were there with your family.

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Speaker 2: They're a ubiquitous part of Australian culture, probably a lot

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Speaker 2: more so now than they were back then. Your grandfather,

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Speaker 2: though even back then, was an avid user of the Pokeyes,

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Speaker 2: wasn't he?

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Speaker 4: He certainly was.

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Speaker 1: What did that look like to you?

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Speaker 2: So would it mean that he would have lunch with

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Speaker 2: you and then he'd sort of scurry away? And how

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Speaker 2: long would he spend there?

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Speaker 1: What did you see? What did you notice?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: No, he never made it a big part of the

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Speaker 3: outings that my family did together. He would always be

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Speaker 3: at the table for lunch with us, and then afterwards

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Speaker 3: there would be a period of time when my brother

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Speaker 3: and I were younger, that he would go away into

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Speaker 3: the Pokey's venue and spend some time, and quite often

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Speaker 3: I could hear him speaking and laughing.

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Speaker 4: And it was always a memory that.

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Speaker 3: I associated with joy, because he would build up to it,

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Speaker 3: he would make references to it, and quite often if

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Speaker 3: I spoke to him on the phone during the week

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Speaker 3: in between the lunches, he would say, it's happening. It's

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Speaker 3: going to happen on Saturday, and we're going to win money.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be amazing. So it was always a

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Speaker 3: memory that was associated with joy and positivity, and the

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Speaker 3: less positive side of it only came into play for

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Speaker 3: me when I was an adult.

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Speaker 2: I imagine it was also associated with sort of familiarity

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Speaker 2: and safety, because that was your grandpa, right, and it

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Speaker 2: was something that happened and in plain sight, even though

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Speaker 2: kids weren't allowed to be around the Pokey's in that area,

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Speaker 2: it did. It sort of seem exciting and a bit forbidden,

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Speaker 2: but quite joyous, not furtive.

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Speaker 4: Did it. Ever?

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Speaker 3: The venuine question was the pokies were quite close to

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Speaker 3: the eating areas, so we're talking about a sheet of

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Speaker 3: glass that was frosted that you couldn't see through. But

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Speaker 3: all I remember was the laughing. I remember the coins

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Speaker 3: clinking in the cups before note acceptors came in. I

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Speaker 3: remember people coming out with smiles on their faces. And

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Speaker 3: it was at this particular venue, never something that I

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Speaker 3: considered unacceptable, even though I'm sure there were parts of

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Speaker 3: it that I didn't see as a child, with people

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Speaker 3: being upset, people losing their money, people coming out wondering

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Speaker 3: how they were going to put food on the table.

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Speaker 3: But as a kid, you don't pick up on those

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Speaker 3: kinds of cues.

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Speaker 2: I don't think, Yeah, it's funny when you speak, you've

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Speaker 2: got a really happy expression, like you're smiling in a

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Speaker 2: really happy way, like you do when we look back

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Speaker 2: on a happy memory. In high school, your family went

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Speaker 2: through some changes. Your parents got a divorce, which took

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Speaker 2: a big emotional toll on you. And throughout that time

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Speaker 2: you were really close to your grandfather.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about him.

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Speaker 3: Oh, amazing man. So my grandfather was a banker and

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Speaker 3: maintained a personal bank account with a reserve bank right

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Speaker 3: up until he died. He was involved in the delivery

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Speaker 3: of decimal currency to banks around Adelaide and was considered

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Speaker 3: too important to go to war because of his role there.

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Speaker 4: As I was growing.

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Speaker 3: Up, he taught me to love books and words and

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Speaker 3: reading and gave me my incredibly stupid and low bar

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Speaker 3: humor that I still enjoy today. Probably one of the

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Speaker 3: smartest people I've ever met. And when he died in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and five that the memory of him passing

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Speaker 3: was on the day that the sky show occurred in Adelaide.

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Speaker 4: So the sky Show, for.

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Speaker 3: People that don't know, is a firework show that happens

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Speaker 3: usually on Australia Day. And I remember my mum had

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Speaker 3: called us and let us know that he had passed,

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Speaker 3: and it was just when the fireworks were starting, and

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Speaker 3: a core memory of that for me is me going, wow, Okay,

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Speaker 3: so he's moving on to the next part of his life.

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Speaker 3: He's done all he can here and here is the

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Speaker 3: welcome journey for him to the next stage.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a beautiful way of looking at it.

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Speaker 2: I've got a real sense of him.

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Speaker 4: I almost cried.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm almost.

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Speaker 2: Crying, Like looking at your face. I've got a real

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Speaker 2: sense of him. And I don't know if I spoke

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Speaker 2: about my only met one of my grandfathers, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know if I spoke about him. I loved him

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Speaker 2: and he was great, but I didn't have that sole

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Speaker 2: connection with him that it sounds like you had with

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Speaker 2: your grandfather.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when he died.

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Speaker 3: I was twenty five. I was just at the end

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Speaker 3: of my law degree and he passed just as I

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Speaker 3: was sort of finishing final exam. So difficult time in

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Speaker 3: my life to manage that kind of bereavement, but incredibly hard.

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Speaker 3: Miss him every day and have his initials tattooed on

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Speaker 3: the inside of my wrist so I remember him.

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Speaker 2: Was he rich, No, not at all, because when you

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Speaker 2: say he's a banker and he had an account with

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Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank.

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Speaker 3: If you asked him that question, he would laugh. He

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Speaker 3: was from a working class family and he was the

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Speaker 3: sole breadwinner. My grandmother was a stay at home wife

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Speaker 3: and parent, and although they didn't have much money, especially

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Speaker 3: in the early parts of their lives, their family never

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Speaker 3: wanted for anything.

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Speaker 2: When you turned eighteen, Anna, what did your grandfather give

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Speaker 2: you as a present?

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Speaker 3: He gave me money. I remember that, and he also

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Speaker 3: gave me, almost like rites of passage experiences. So the

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Speaker 3: pokes was one. He tried to get me to drink.

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Speaker 3: That didn't work. I still don't drink. And he gave

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Speaker 3: me books because he and I had always given each

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Speaker 3: other books, and that became a core part of how

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Speaker 3: we interacted, was over books and reading and stories, as well.

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Speaker 2: As part of the money that he gave you, it

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Speaker 2: was a cup of coins, certainly was so you could

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Speaker 2: have your first legal spin on the pokes. Do you

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Speaker 2: remember that first experience on the machine?

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Speaker 4: I do.

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Speaker 3: I remember, because, as I said, there was a pane

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Speaker 3: of frosted glass that you had to walk behind to

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Speaker 3: get into the area, and I remember going, wow, I've

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Speaker 3: always been on the other side of this glass. Now

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Speaker 3: I'm walking around to finally see what makes all these

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Speaker 3: people so happy. And it might not have been on

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Speaker 3: my very first experience, but this is a common experience

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Speaker 3: of people that struggle with gambling harm is. I had

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Speaker 3: a big wind fairly early, and I was eighteen, So

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Speaker 3: we're only talking a couple one hundred dollars, which was

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Speaker 3: more than I made in my week's earnings at KFC,

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Speaker 3: where I worked at the time, and that to me

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Speaker 3: seemed like an amazing thing to do and an amazing

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Speaker 3: way of suring that I was going to make this

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Speaker 3: kind of money all the time. And who would do

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Speaker 3: part time work given that so close to me starting this,

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Speaker 3: I was so successful.

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Speaker 2: How much money did you have to put in to

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Speaker 2: win that few hundred dollars?

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Speaker 3: Do you think, Oh, look, it wouldn't have been much

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Speaker 3: more than twenty thirty forty dollars. Like, we're not talking

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Speaker 3: a lot of money at all. I don't remember the

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Speaker 3: exact amount, but that was the we intended to go

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Speaker 3: up to. When he was handing over money as gifts,

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Speaker 3: which as a young adult you're always grateful for when

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Speaker 3: struggling with part time work, But it wasn't a lot

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Speaker 3: like we're talking very very small amount to win what

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Speaker 3: I considered a very large one.

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Speaker 2: You're right that at first you gambled alongside your grandfather

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Speaker 2: as a sort of a bonding activity. You did it together.

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Speaker 2: When did you first gamble alone? Do you remember that time?

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Speaker 4: I do?

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Speaker 3: It was when I started university in Adelaide City. So

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Speaker 3: I went to the University of Adelaide and started my

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Speaker 3: law degree and my art's degree and realized pretty quickly

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Speaker 3: that pokeys were on every corner and they still are.

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Speaker 3: So made my way across North Terrace into the venues

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Speaker 3: when I had breaks between lectures and dutes, and used

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Speaker 3: pokies as an escape and escape from study and escape

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Speaker 3: from work. I was working really hard in the early

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Speaker 3: part of my tertiary study as well, and it quickly

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Speaker 3: became a hobby that was destructive.

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Speaker 2: How did you feel when you were actually putting the

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Speaker 2: money in and pulling that lever.

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Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people who experienced gambling harm,

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Speaker 3: and myself included, say that it doesn't feel like real money.

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Speaker 3: It's almost fake, like you think of it almost like

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Speaker 3: monopoly money. And I referred to that period of my

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Speaker 3: life sometimes as the Disney theory of living, which is

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Speaker 3: everything will workout fine, provided i'd just believe that it will.

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Speaker 3: And there was more times than once that money went

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Speaker 3: in and I went, oh, it's okay, I'll just get more.

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Speaker 3: More will come next week after I've done more work.

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Speaker 3: And I never had a rational kind of hang on

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Speaker 3: a minute, what are you doing? All your money's gone,

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Speaker 3: there's not going to be more until you earn more.

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Speaker 3: Until I was much older.

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Speaker 2: So the money that you put into the machine, and

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Speaker 2: I imagine it's one and two dollar coins.

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Speaker 3: One dollar coins when I was doing it, So when

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Speaker 3: I started playing pokeys, it was before the note acceptors

223
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Speaker 3: came in. So quite often now machines will just take banknotes.

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Speaker 3: Pokis in Adelaide only took one dollar coins at that time.

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Speaker 2: And where do you get the coins from? So you'd

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Speaker 2: go to the like what was your routine before you

227
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Speaker 2: went and played the poking?

228
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Speaker 4: So there are two ways of doing it.

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Speaker 3: You can approach the person working in the venue who

230
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Speaker 3: will change your banknote for dollar coins, or quite often

231
00:12:07,965 --> 00:12:10,325
Speaker 3: there was an automatic machine where you put your note in,

232
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Speaker 3: you put a cup down the bottom and the coins

233
00:12:12,125 --> 00:12:14,045
Speaker 3: drop down into the cup based on the note that

234
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Speaker 3: you've put in. So I quite often would approach the

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Speaker 3: person in the venue initially, but if I was getting

236
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Speaker 3: to the point where I felt like I was losing

237
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Speaker 3: a significant amount of money, there would be a level

238
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Speaker 3: of shame associated with interacting with anyone in the venue,

239
00:12:31,005 --> 00:12:33,885
Speaker 3: and then I would go back to the change machine

240
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Speaker 3: and I would try and make it so no one

241
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Speaker 3: was around if I was in that headspace, because to me,

242
00:12:40,925 --> 00:12:43,885
Speaker 3: the shame was almost too great to bear, even at

243
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Speaker 3: that early stage and losing what in the scheme of

244
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Speaker 3: things as my addiction grew, was relatively small amounts.

245
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Speaker 2: When you first started, did you have caps for yourself,

246
00:12:53,565 --> 00:12:55,885
Speaker 2: like limits, I'll spend this much today?

247
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I did that lots and.

248
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Speaker 1: What were they at first?

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Speaker 3: So anyone who's experienced gambling harm will tell you they

250
00:13:03,725 --> 00:13:07,125
Speaker 3: hate twenty dollar notes because twenty dollars is an automatic

251
00:13:07,245 --> 00:13:10,405
Speaker 3: limit that a lot of people set for themselves. It

252
00:13:10,445 --> 00:13:13,205
Speaker 3: was always only ever going to be twenty. Then I

253
00:13:13,285 --> 00:13:15,645
Speaker 3: allowed it to be fifty on bad days, and it

254
00:13:15,685 --> 00:13:16,605
Speaker 3: crept up from there.

255
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Speaker 2: What made you make the decision to go past your limit?

256
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Speaker 2: If you can explain to someone who doesn't know what

257
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Speaker 2: addiction feels like, because I guess it's the same as

258
00:13:27,405 --> 00:13:29,725
Speaker 2: what makes you go past your limit of drinking or

259
00:13:29,845 --> 00:13:31,085
Speaker 2: drugs or doing anything.

260
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Speaker 3: What makes you go past your limit is for me,

261
00:13:36,005 --> 00:13:39,085
Speaker 3: parts of my life were crap. I was struggling with

262
00:13:39,165 --> 00:13:42,805
Speaker 3: mental health issues. I didn't understand the way that some

263
00:13:42,925 --> 00:13:46,845
Speaker 3: things were unfolding in my family. And when I deserve this,

264
00:13:47,005 --> 00:13:49,565
Speaker 3: I deserve to win because other parts of my life

265
00:13:49,565 --> 00:13:53,045
Speaker 3: were crap. So even if I went past the self

266
00:13:53,045 --> 00:13:57,485
Speaker 3: imposed limit, it didn't matter because I deserved the positive outcome,

267
00:13:57,605 --> 00:13:59,125
Speaker 3: which came so rarely.

268
00:14:00,005 --> 00:14:04,685
Speaker 2: When I was struggling with bolimia, I would feel a

269
00:14:04,685 --> 00:14:08,045
Speaker 2: certain way in my body when I was going and

270
00:14:08,085 --> 00:14:12,005
Speaker 2: buying food to binge with, and then I would sort

271
00:14:12,045 --> 00:14:15,245
Speaker 2: of feel a level of agitation and sort of almost

272
00:14:15,245 --> 00:14:19,605
Speaker 2: arousal in the anticipation period. When I was actually binging

273
00:14:20,125 --> 00:14:22,685
Speaker 2: or throwing up, it would kind of be like a

274
00:14:22,725 --> 00:14:26,165
Speaker 2: really numb feeling. How did it feel for you the

275
00:14:26,245 --> 00:14:30,085
Speaker 2: different parts of your experience each time you went and

276
00:14:30,165 --> 00:14:30,565
Speaker 2: played the.

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Speaker 3: Pokey's when you enter a venue, Well, when I enter

278
00:14:33,965 --> 00:14:38,325
Speaker 3: a venue, it's the similar feeling of it's excitement, It's

279
00:14:38,845 --> 00:14:41,525
Speaker 3: where nobody's going to get me, nobody's going to ask

280
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Speaker 3: me why I'm here. Nobody's going to make me justify

281
00:14:44,365 --> 00:14:47,485
Speaker 3: my existence. Nobody's going to say to me how you feeling,

282
00:14:47,605 --> 00:14:50,645
Speaker 3: explain it to me, and I can just be by

283
00:14:50,685 --> 00:14:53,285
Speaker 3: myself and do what I like to do, which is

284
00:14:53,365 --> 00:14:56,165
Speaker 3: try and win money. But as time in the venue

285
00:14:56,205 --> 00:14:59,925
Speaker 3: goes on, and if you look around a pokey venue,

286
00:15:00,005 --> 00:15:02,245
Speaker 3: quite often there's not a clock and quite often there

287
00:15:02,285 --> 00:15:05,845
Speaker 3: aren't windows. And there's a reason for that because people

288
00:15:05,885 --> 00:15:09,165
Speaker 3: get almost into like a robotic state of existence where

289
00:15:09,165 --> 00:15:12,085
Speaker 3: they think, if I just put in a little bit more,

290
00:15:12,405 --> 00:15:14,845
Speaker 3: I'll win. If I can just put in a little

291
00:15:14,885 --> 00:15:17,165
Speaker 3: bit more, have a big one, I won't tell anyone

292
00:15:17,245 --> 00:15:19,205
Speaker 3: and we'll all get on with life. It'll be fine.

293
00:15:19,365 --> 00:15:22,365
Speaker 3: So if you think about it like a curve, you

294
00:15:22,445 --> 00:15:25,085
Speaker 3: go up to the top of the curve up here,

295
00:15:25,165 --> 00:15:29,325
Speaker 3: you hit a numb state. You stay there until the

296
00:15:29,365 --> 00:15:31,485
Speaker 3: point where you go, wait a minute, I'm in a

297
00:15:31,525 --> 00:15:35,125
Speaker 3: situation that's really not constructive for me, and you take

298
00:15:35,165 --> 00:15:38,605
Speaker 3: a very sharp decline. And that was normally when I

299
00:15:38,685 --> 00:15:41,845
Speaker 3: left once I realized what the reality of what I've

300
00:15:41,885 --> 00:15:44,045
Speaker 3: been doing meant for my life.

301
00:15:44,725 --> 00:15:47,525
Speaker 2: What would make you have that realization and crossing to

302
00:15:47,645 --> 00:15:48,605
Speaker 2: that stage.

303
00:15:48,325 --> 00:15:50,725
Speaker 3: When i'd drawn out of money, when I got to

304
00:15:50,765 --> 00:15:53,245
Speaker 3: the point where my shame was so great I couldn't

305
00:15:53,285 --> 00:15:56,605
Speaker 3: look anybody in the eye in the venue, or when

306
00:15:56,645 --> 00:15:59,325
Speaker 3: it was getting to the point where I felt unsafe.

307
00:15:59,405 --> 00:16:02,205
Speaker 3: So quite often I would gamble or play the pokies

308
00:16:02,285 --> 00:16:04,205
Speaker 3: to the point where it was quite late at night.

309
00:16:04,405 --> 00:16:06,845
Speaker 3: I was living by myself, there was no reason or

310
00:16:07,085 --> 00:16:09,925
Speaker 3: thought for me to go home, so I would gamble

311
00:16:09,925 --> 00:16:12,525
Speaker 3: toll ten o'clock at night, and as a single woman

312
00:16:12,645 --> 00:16:14,765
Speaker 3: in a pub at ten o'clock at night where people

313
00:16:14,845 --> 00:16:18,645
Speaker 3: have been drinking, it's not always the safest environment. And

314
00:16:18,885 --> 00:16:20,725
Speaker 3: I got to the point some nights where I went,

315
00:16:20,805 --> 00:16:22,485
Speaker 3: I don't feel safe. I had to get out of here,

316
00:16:22,645 --> 00:16:25,405
Speaker 3: and that would be the trigger for me leaving. If

317
00:16:25,405 --> 00:16:27,005
Speaker 3: I was still at the point where I was winning

318
00:16:27,085 --> 00:16:29,605
Speaker 3: or had a lot of money, or I was knowing

319
00:16:29,605 --> 00:16:31,005
Speaker 3: that I had to get up for work the next

320
00:16:31,045 --> 00:16:34,405
Speaker 3: day would sometimes be a trigger as well. But there

321
00:16:34,485 --> 00:16:38,205
Speaker 3: are a raft of ways you can justify extra time

322
00:16:38,245 --> 00:16:38,805
Speaker 3: to yourself.

323
00:16:39,845 --> 00:16:41,805
Speaker 2: Would you ever leave when you were winning, when you

324
00:16:41,845 --> 00:16:44,525
Speaker 2: were ahead, or was it always the point you'd leave

325
00:16:44,605 --> 00:16:46,125
Speaker 2: was when you run out of money.

326
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Speaker 3: I would leave when I was ahead, if I'd want

327
00:16:48,645 --> 00:16:52,325
Speaker 3: a lot of money because I could justify to myself

328
00:16:52,325 --> 00:16:54,885
Speaker 3: I've made up some of the losses, like this is okay,

329
00:16:55,125 --> 00:16:55,845
Speaker 3: this is okay.

330
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Speaker 4: I'm not going to be at.

331
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Speaker 3: A point where I need to borrow money. I'm not

332
00:16:59,245 --> 00:17:01,645
Speaker 3: going to be at a point where my life is

333
00:17:01,645 --> 00:17:03,045
Speaker 3: going to fall over and I'm not going to be

334
00:17:03,085 --> 00:17:06,685
Speaker 3: able to pay my car, REGERL or eat. But I

335
00:17:06,765 --> 00:17:09,205
Speaker 3: am going to walk out knowing that all the bills

336
00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:11,405
Speaker 3: next week will be paid because I've won money.

337
00:17:12,005 --> 00:17:15,205
Speaker 2: What's the most you can win in a don't what

338
00:17:15,205 --> 00:17:16,165
Speaker 2: would you even call it?

339
00:17:16,205 --> 00:17:19,365
Speaker 3: In South Australia, the limit is ten thousand dollars and

340
00:17:19,645 --> 00:17:22,205
Speaker 3: if you win more than ten thousand dollars that money

341
00:17:22,285 --> 00:17:24,045
Speaker 3: I don't know what happens to that money because I've

342
00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:25,925
Speaker 3: never won more than ten thousand dollars.

343
00:17:25,965 --> 00:17:27,805
Speaker 1: But have you won ten thousand dollars?

344
00:17:28,325 --> 00:17:30,525
Speaker 3: The most I've ever won is four and a half.

345
00:17:30,885 --> 00:17:33,045
Speaker 2: And then I guess the most you've ever won is

346
00:17:33,085 --> 00:17:36,005
Speaker 2: four and a half in one session. But it's kind

347
00:17:36,045 --> 00:17:38,285
Speaker 2: of meaningless me asking you what's the most you've ever

348
00:17:38,325 --> 00:17:42,725
Speaker 2: lost in one session, because it's accumulation of the sessions

349
00:17:43,085 --> 00:17:45,765
Speaker 2: that causes the harm, right exactly right.

350
00:17:46,085 --> 00:17:48,565
Speaker 3: I mean, I can tell you individual sessions where I've

351
00:17:48,605 --> 00:17:52,245
Speaker 3: lost quite a significant amount, like how much the figure, oh,

352
00:17:52,405 --> 00:17:54,805
Speaker 3: like two three, four, five hundred dollars.

353
00:17:54,845 --> 00:17:56,765
Speaker 4: But the figure that would be more.

354
00:17:56,605 --> 00:18:01,245
Speaker 3: Meaningful for people listening and trying to understand addiction is

355
00:18:01,325 --> 00:18:03,565
Speaker 3: over the course of my addiction, it would be two

356
00:18:03,645 --> 00:18:07,045
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars or more. I would think that I've lost.

357
00:18:07,525 --> 00:18:07,765
Speaker 2: Wow.

358
00:18:08,125 --> 00:18:10,605
Speaker 3: And this is from a woman who was in a

359
00:18:10,645 --> 00:18:13,565
Speaker 3: position where at any time there was supportive family that

360
00:18:13,645 --> 00:18:16,725
Speaker 3: she could seek help from, but chose not to because

361
00:18:16,765 --> 00:18:20,405
Speaker 3: of the shame and the fear associated with being judged

362
00:18:20,565 --> 00:18:22,005
Speaker 3: for having this kind of an addiction.

363
00:18:22,965 --> 00:18:25,365
Speaker 2: When you looked around, who are the people at the

364
00:18:25,405 --> 00:18:26,365
Speaker 2: machines around you?

365
00:18:27,045 --> 00:18:30,885
Speaker 3: So quite often people say that pokeis are an older

366
00:18:31,085 --> 00:18:35,485
Speaker 3: person's game. In a way, that's true, but not for

367
00:18:36,085 --> 00:18:39,725
Speaker 3: the entire span of the day. So younger people play

368
00:18:39,765 --> 00:18:43,245
Speaker 3: the pokes at night. I've seen more than my fair

369
00:18:43,285 --> 00:18:48,765
Speaker 3: share of couples who were younger sitting playing losing During

370
00:18:48,805 --> 00:18:52,725
Speaker 3: the day. It's older people who might feel lonely and

371
00:18:52,805 --> 00:18:54,645
Speaker 3: don't have anyone else to talk to, and it's a

372
00:18:54,685 --> 00:18:56,685
Speaker 3: way of getting a cup of coffee and a smile

373
00:18:57,845 --> 00:19:00,605
Speaker 3: when maybe during the day you wouldn't have anyone else

374
00:19:00,605 --> 00:19:04,405
Speaker 3: to give that to you. So this is an industry

375
00:19:05,205 --> 00:19:08,445
Speaker 3: that attracts people from all walks of life at any

376
00:19:08,525 --> 00:19:12,965
Speaker 3: point in time, if you are susceptible to having issues.

377
00:19:13,085 --> 00:19:15,605
Speaker 3: I don't think it discriminates by age. I've seen it

378
00:19:15,645 --> 00:19:17,685
Speaker 3: across the board and across the spectrum.

379
00:19:18,045 --> 00:19:20,405
Speaker 1: And do gamblers talk to each other while they're playing.

380
00:19:21,325 --> 00:19:24,325
Speaker 3: It's really funny because I went in there with no

381
00:19:24,485 --> 00:19:28,765
Speaker 3: intention to speak to anyone, and in fact, I'm not

382
00:19:28,885 --> 00:19:32,765
Speaker 3: someone who will not encourage a conversation with a stranger,

383
00:19:33,405 --> 00:19:36,285
Speaker 3: but in a gambling venue, no, don't talk to me.

384
00:19:36,405 --> 00:19:38,805
Speaker 3: I'm not there to speak or make friends. I'm there

385
00:19:38,885 --> 00:19:44,445
Speaker 3: to indulge in my addiction and leave without anybody seeing

386
00:19:44,565 --> 00:19:48,445
Speaker 3: or interacting with me. But there's another element that I noticed,

387
00:19:48,525 --> 00:19:52,485
Speaker 3: particularly towards the end of my addiction, which is people

388
00:19:52,525 --> 00:19:55,325
Speaker 3: that make friends and sit there and have their coffee

389
00:19:55,365 --> 00:19:57,565
Speaker 3: and play their small bets and talk to each other.

390
00:19:57,725 --> 00:20:01,885
Speaker 3: So whether those people have a problem with gambling is

391
00:20:01,925 --> 00:20:05,365
Speaker 3: only for them to say, I guess, But you can

392
00:20:05,445 --> 00:20:07,565
Speaker 3: see it when you walk into a venue that there

393
00:20:07,605 --> 00:20:10,525
Speaker 3: are people there like me who don't want to interact

394
00:20:10,645 --> 00:20:13,245
Speaker 3: on this level in any way, shape or form, and

395
00:20:13,285 --> 00:20:15,325
Speaker 3: there are people there who use it as a way

396
00:20:15,365 --> 00:20:16,205
Speaker 3: of socializing.

397
00:20:16,485 --> 00:20:19,005
Speaker 4: So a bit of both. I guess.

398
00:20:19,525 --> 00:20:21,965
Speaker 2: Is there a sense of camaraderie when someone wins? Does

399
00:20:21,965 --> 00:20:24,085
Speaker 2: everyone cheer in a way?

400
00:20:24,165 --> 00:20:28,525
Speaker 3: But there are also jealous sight eyes and why is

401
00:20:28,565 --> 00:20:32,445
Speaker 3: it that person and not me? There are also I

402
00:20:32,485 --> 00:20:35,725
Speaker 3: think that staff are trained to make a big deal

403
00:20:35,845 --> 00:20:38,125
Speaker 3: of people when they win. But what you might not

404
00:20:38,245 --> 00:20:40,285
Speaker 3: see is that that person has been there for six

405
00:20:40,365 --> 00:20:44,605
Speaker 3: hours and might be coming close to being even not

406
00:20:44,685 --> 00:20:47,045
Speaker 3: a win. This is not a person walking out ahead.

407
00:20:47,325 --> 00:20:50,965
Speaker 3: This is a person walking out with less loss than

408
00:20:51,005 --> 00:20:52,925
Speaker 3: they might have if they'd stopped earlier.

409
00:20:54,605 --> 00:20:57,685
Speaker 2: After this break, the moment that Anna hit rock bottom

410
00:20:57,725 --> 00:21:00,445
Speaker 2: and realized that she had such a serious problem that

411
00:21:00,485 --> 00:21:04,485
Speaker 2: was putting her financial, emotional, and physical safety at risk,

412
00:21:05,205 --> 00:21:08,405
Speaker 2: and also the phone call that saved to life and

413
00:21:08,445 --> 00:21:13,565
Speaker 2: it was with an unlikely person. Anna, can you give

414
00:21:14,045 --> 00:21:17,085
Speaker 2: me some context over what period of time this happened?

415
00:21:17,285 --> 00:21:19,485
Speaker 2: So you use the pokeys for the first time when

416
00:21:19,525 --> 00:21:22,445
Speaker 2: you're eighteen with your grandfather. He died when you were

417
00:21:22,485 --> 00:21:25,165
Speaker 2: twenty five, so that's seven years later, and you say

418
00:21:25,165 --> 00:21:27,485
Speaker 2: that's when things got really bad.

419
00:21:27,685 --> 00:21:29,125
Speaker 4: That's when it got really hard.

420
00:21:29,325 --> 00:21:32,405
Speaker 2: So between eighteen and twenty five, how often were you

421
00:21:32,485 --> 00:21:33,965
Speaker 2: going and would you have said that it was a

422
00:21:34,005 --> 00:21:37,245
Speaker 2: problem in hindsight during that time, I.

423
00:21:37,245 --> 00:21:41,565
Speaker 3: Would say maybe three times a week, maybe building up

424
00:21:41,565 --> 00:21:43,765
Speaker 3: to four or five near the end of that period

425
00:21:43,845 --> 00:21:47,845
Speaker 3: of time. I didn't ever see that my grandfather and

426
00:21:47,885 --> 00:21:50,525
Speaker 3: I going together was a problem because it was our

427
00:21:50,565 --> 00:21:54,365
Speaker 3: way of catching up, socializing, interacting with each other over

428
00:21:54,405 --> 00:21:57,245
Speaker 3: something that we both liked to do. But I do

429
00:21:57,365 --> 00:21:59,925
Speaker 3: remember going into the last year of my law degree

430
00:21:59,925 --> 00:22:02,845
Speaker 3: and thinking I really should do something about this because

431
00:22:03,525 --> 00:22:06,525
Speaker 3: people my age don't tend to hang around in pokey

432
00:22:06,645 --> 00:22:10,405
Speaker 3: rooms when they've got gaps in between the days at UNI,

433
00:22:10,805 --> 00:22:13,445
Speaker 3: So I was in classes with people who would come

434
00:22:13,485 --> 00:22:16,045
Speaker 3: back with shopping bags or like yeah, in as a

435
00:22:16,125 --> 00:22:19,765
Speaker 3: food or eat from breaks between classes, but not me.

436
00:22:20,125 --> 00:22:20,885
Speaker 4: I would come back.

437
00:22:20,925 --> 00:22:23,525
Speaker 3: I would sit in the back of lectures and try

438
00:22:23,605 --> 00:22:26,325
Speaker 3: and hope that I wasn't going to repeat what I'd

439
00:22:26,365 --> 00:22:27,405
Speaker 3: just done the next day.

440
00:22:28,285 --> 00:22:31,925
Speaker 2: So it was around that time, when you're about twenty five,

441
00:22:32,045 --> 00:22:35,085
Speaker 2: that you started going pretty much every day. Would you

442
00:22:35,125 --> 00:22:38,565
Speaker 2: say that's right, yes, For how many hours at a time.

443
00:22:39,245 --> 00:22:41,085
Speaker 3: I used it as a bit of a because I

444
00:22:41,165 --> 00:22:42,925
Speaker 3: moved into full time work when I was sort of

445
00:22:42,925 --> 00:22:45,285
Speaker 3: twenty six twenty seven when I finished my law degree,

446
00:22:45,525 --> 00:22:48,885
Speaker 3: and I used it as an escape after work. So

447
00:22:49,085 --> 00:22:51,845
Speaker 3: it started off as just half an hour an hour

448
00:22:52,005 --> 00:22:54,685
Speaker 3: here and there. As it got worse, I would say

449
00:22:54,685 --> 00:22:58,165
Speaker 3: two to three hours, sometimes seven days a week, sometimes

450
00:22:58,245 --> 00:22:58,965
Speaker 3: less if I.

451
00:22:58,885 --> 00:23:01,725
Speaker 4: Was feeling good or was busy for other reasons.

452
00:23:01,765 --> 00:23:05,405
Speaker 3: But I also, at that period of time went through

453
00:23:05,405 --> 00:23:07,605
Speaker 3: a period at work where I was quite badly bullied

454
00:23:08,085 --> 00:23:12,605
Speaker 3: and didn't fancy being at home by myself, so I

455
00:23:12,645 --> 00:23:15,285
Speaker 3: would use it as a way of not being alone

456
00:23:15,325 --> 00:23:18,205
Speaker 3: with my own thoughts and other issues that I had

457
00:23:18,205 --> 00:23:21,445
Speaker 3: to deal with at the time. I would, as good

458
00:23:21,445 --> 00:23:24,685
Speaker 3: friends still say to me, pack my life full of

459
00:23:24,925 --> 00:23:27,765
Speaker 3: crap so I don't have to think about the things

460
00:23:27,765 --> 00:23:30,605
Speaker 3: that I really need to pay attention to, like this.

461
00:23:31,325 --> 00:23:35,485
Speaker 2: When you're sliding into addiction, or my experience anyway, at

462
00:23:35,525 --> 00:23:37,965
Speaker 2: first you think you've got control over it, and it

463
00:23:38,005 --> 00:23:42,405
Speaker 2: starts as a little treat, and then you lose that control.

464
00:23:42,485 --> 00:23:46,525
Speaker 1: But on the way down you make rules for yourself.

465
00:23:46,845 --> 00:23:50,285
Speaker 2: In an attempt to regain control over it, and then

466
00:23:50,325 --> 00:23:52,925
Speaker 2: you find yourself one by one breaking those rules. What

467
00:23:52,965 --> 00:23:54,925
Speaker 2: are some of the rules that you made for yourself

468
00:23:54,965 --> 00:23:55,645
Speaker 2: and broke?

469
00:23:56,805 --> 00:24:01,525
Speaker 3: My brain still likes rules and symmetry, and I believe

470
00:24:01,605 --> 00:24:05,085
Speaker 3: that it is directly attributed to this period of my life.

471
00:24:05,205 --> 00:24:08,605
Speaker 3: So limits on how much I would spend or how

472
00:24:08,645 --> 00:24:10,805
Speaker 3: long I would spen and in the venue always had

473
00:24:10,845 --> 00:24:12,845
Speaker 3: to be even, so fifty.

474
00:24:12,525 --> 00:24:15,165
Speaker 4: Dollars or an hour. I love a round number.

475
00:24:15,205 --> 00:24:17,205
Speaker 3: I even still love around number when I'm filling up

476
00:24:17,205 --> 00:24:18,925
Speaker 3: my car with petrol or something like that.

477
00:24:19,005 --> 00:24:19,365
Speaker 4: Like it.

478
00:24:19,365 --> 00:24:23,285
Speaker 3: It's su pervasive into other areas of black I always

479
00:24:23,405 --> 00:24:25,885
Speaker 3: said to myself at various points, if you go in

480
00:24:25,925 --> 00:24:28,245
Speaker 3: there and you talk to someone, maybe you've made somebody's

481
00:24:28,325 --> 00:24:32,645
Speaker 3: day better. So that is a justification that I used

482
00:24:32,685 --> 00:24:36,965
Speaker 3: as well. Another justification, you work really hard, You're allowed

483
00:24:37,005 --> 00:24:39,285
Speaker 3: to have a few treats. You can spend your money

484
00:24:39,285 --> 00:24:41,885
Speaker 3: how you like. All your bills are paid. This is

485
00:24:41,885 --> 00:24:45,365
Speaker 3: not a problem. And the last one, and probably the

486
00:24:45,365 --> 00:24:49,485
Speaker 3: most important one, is I'll just stop. I know I

487
00:24:49,485 --> 00:24:51,605
Speaker 3: can do that whenever I want to. Yeah, but I

488
00:24:51,645 --> 00:24:54,685
Speaker 3: did that a lot. Yeah, And it never was consistent.

489
00:24:55,525 --> 00:24:57,005
Speaker 1: Where did you get your money from?

490
00:24:57,725 --> 00:25:00,765
Speaker 3: So work, I had a bit of a problem with

491
00:25:00,885 --> 00:25:03,605
Speaker 3: credit card debt for a while, which I paid off,

492
00:25:04,165 --> 00:25:08,005
Speaker 3: but it resulted in some fairly creative accounting on my part.

493
00:25:08,125 --> 00:25:11,685
Speaker 3: To make things work. I used all of my disposable

494
00:25:11,685 --> 00:25:15,845
Speaker 3: income for gambling, and even now would consider that I

495
00:25:15,885 --> 00:25:18,645
Speaker 3: am behind in where I wanted to be in my

496
00:25:18,765 --> 00:25:22,005
Speaker 3: life because of the choices that I made in that period.

497
00:25:22,765 --> 00:25:25,445
Speaker 2: What kind of financial danger did you put yourself in?

498
00:25:26,165 --> 00:25:28,725
Speaker 3: There were times when I couldn't pay the bills. There

499
00:25:28,725 --> 00:25:31,565
Speaker 3: were times when I had to borrow money to exist.

500
00:25:31,965 --> 00:25:37,085
Speaker 3: There were times when I mean I never stole or

501
00:25:38,245 --> 00:25:40,765
Speaker 3: did anything like that, but there were times when I

502
00:25:40,805 --> 00:25:45,165
Speaker 3: considered it. And certainly, speaking with other people, we've lived

503
00:25:45,205 --> 00:25:49,405
Speaker 3: experience in gambling harm went down that pathway, and I think,

504
00:25:49,805 --> 00:25:52,885
Speaker 3: whatever kind of god ess is watching over us at

505
00:25:52,885 --> 00:25:55,925
Speaker 3: the moment, that I never did, because I can see

506
00:25:55,925 --> 00:25:57,085
Speaker 3: how easy it would be.

507
00:25:57,845 --> 00:26:00,885
Speaker 1: Who was the first person that you told I think

508
00:26:00,925 --> 00:26:01,845
Speaker 1: I've got a problem.

509
00:26:02,165 --> 00:26:06,605
Speaker 3: I went through a raft of different therapies. So here

510
00:26:06,605 --> 00:26:10,005
Speaker 3: in Adelaide there's the statewide gambling rehabilitation services.

511
00:26:10,005 --> 00:26:10,565
Speaker 4: I went there.

512
00:26:10,645 --> 00:26:14,485
Speaker 3: I went to relationships Australia. In terms of people in

513
00:26:14,565 --> 00:26:17,965
Speaker 3: my life, parts of my family still don't know that

514
00:26:18,045 --> 00:26:22,445
Speaker 3: this experience occurred for me. It probably was a doctor

515
00:26:22,605 --> 00:26:25,805
Speaker 3: or a counselor at some point, because I went, I

516
00:26:25,805 --> 00:26:27,965
Speaker 3: don't want to be a burden to anyone who loves me.

517
00:26:28,325 --> 00:26:31,365
Speaker 3: I'm going to go and get external help, and I'm

518
00:26:31,365 --> 00:26:33,125
Speaker 3: going to go and I'm going to have this therapy

519
00:26:33,205 --> 00:26:34,765
Speaker 3: and we're not going to talk about it. We're just

520
00:26:34,805 --> 00:26:36,885
Speaker 3: going to go through it and make it happen and

521
00:26:36,925 --> 00:26:37,685
Speaker 3: it will be fine.

522
00:26:37,965 --> 00:26:38,765
Speaker 1: No one needs to know.

523
00:26:39,205 --> 00:26:41,525
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would have been a professional person of some kind,

524
00:26:41,525 --> 00:26:42,605
Speaker 3: But I don't know.

525
00:26:42,965 --> 00:26:45,245
Speaker 2: What was it that made you. Was it a particular

526
00:26:45,325 --> 00:26:48,125
Speaker 2: thing that you went, Okay, I can't control this.

527
00:26:48,765 --> 00:26:49,485
Speaker 1: I need help.

528
00:26:49,685 --> 00:26:51,485
Speaker 3: It was one night when I was sitting on the

529
00:26:51,485 --> 00:26:54,405
Speaker 3: bed at home, crying with a knife next to me,

530
00:26:54,605 --> 00:26:58,205
Speaker 3: thinking this is enough. I can't do this anymore. And

531
00:26:58,285 --> 00:27:00,805
Speaker 3: if my family ever found out what I've been through,

532
00:27:01,365 --> 00:27:03,365
Speaker 3: it would be easier for me not to be here.

533
00:27:03,965 --> 00:27:06,125
Speaker 3: So it got to the point where that was a

534
00:27:06,165 --> 00:27:09,885
Speaker 3: real option for me, and I realized that I couldn't

535
00:27:09,925 --> 00:27:12,045
Speaker 3: do that to my mum, and I couldn't do it

536
00:27:12,085 --> 00:27:15,685
Speaker 3: to people around me who I knew would be there

537
00:27:15,725 --> 00:27:19,285
Speaker 3: for me if I needed help, And I stopped and

538
00:27:19,325 --> 00:27:21,765
Speaker 3: I went, I need to get help here, and I

539
00:27:21,845 --> 00:27:25,605
Speaker 3: rang Lifeline and got referred to a number of different

540
00:27:25,645 --> 00:27:30,325
Speaker 3: support services and ultimately ended up self excluding myself from

541
00:27:30,445 --> 00:27:32,645
Speaker 3: gambling venues, which is what helped me stop.

542
00:27:33,285 --> 00:27:35,445
Speaker 2: Can you explain that before you do, I just want

543
00:27:35,485 --> 00:27:37,765
Speaker 2: to say thank God, thank God you reached out for

544
00:27:37,805 --> 00:27:42,685
Speaker 2: help in that moment, Thank God, and thank you for

545
00:27:42,725 --> 00:27:45,845
Speaker 2: thinking about your mum on behalf of moms couldn't not.

546
00:27:46,765 --> 00:27:49,485
Speaker 3: My mum is an amazing woman and doesn't know a

547
00:27:49,485 --> 00:27:51,525
Speaker 3: lot of this, so her and I are going to

548
00:27:51,565 --> 00:27:55,445
Speaker 3: have a conversation before this comes out. But it is

549
00:27:55,725 --> 00:28:00,765
Speaker 3: incredibly important to me that women here that if you're

550
00:28:00,765 --> 00:28:03,405
Speaker 3: in that place, what I'm trying to do will help you.

551
00:28:03,725 --> 00:28:05,885
Speaker 2: It's so generous of you to be this honest and

552
00:28:05,925 --> 00:28:10,725
Speaker 2: talk about this, because I'm sure to save lives and

553
00:28:10,765 --> 00:28:14,285
Speaker 2: I'm just so glad that reaching out saved yours. Do

554
00:28:14,325 --> 00:28:16,125
Speaker 2: you remember what the person on the other end of

555
00:28:16,165 --> 00:28:18,925
Speaker 2: the phone on lifeline said to you that night.

556
00:28:19,525 --> 00:28:21,805
Speaker 4: I'll never forget that. I'll never forget that.

557
00:28:22,565 --> 00:28:26,285
Speaker 3: And it's going to sound really trite, but I explained

558
00:28:26,325 --> 00:28:29,485
Speaker 3: everything and I was crying. It was probably eleven, twelve

559
00:28:29,525 --> 00:28:32,125
Speaker 3: o'clock at night, and it was an English woman. She

560
00:28:32,245 --> 00:28:34,845
Speaker 3: let me talk and she let me cry, and she said, love,

561
00:28:34,845 --> 00:28:39,445
Speaker 3: You're going to be okay, And I remember going, no,

562
00:28:39,605 --> 00:28:39,885
Speaker 3: I'm not.

563
00:28:40,085 --> 00:28:40,885
Speaker 4: How do you know that?

564
00:28:41,085 --> 00:28:43,405
Speaker 3: And I'll still say that to people around me if

565
00:28:43,445 --> 00:28:46,845
Speaker 3: I'm in because I manage anxiety and panic disorders at

566
00:28:46,845 --> 00:28:50,125
Speaker 3: the moment as well, and I'll still say to people

567
00:28:50,125 --> 00:28:52,085
Speaker 3: around me, how do you know I'm going to be okay?

568
00:28:52,125 --> 00:28:56,725
Speaker 3: There's no evidence of that. And a very good friend

569
00:28:56,765 --> 00:28:58,925
Speaker 3: of mine gave me a sticker that says, Anna, you

570
00:28:58,965 --> 00:29:01,925
Speaker 3: have survived one hundred percent of your bad days. Because

571
00:29:01,925 --> 00:29:04,165
Speaker 3: what that woman said to me was, Anna, you have

572
00:29:04,245 --> 00:29:07,725
Speaker 3: survived one hundred percent of your bad days and you

573
00:29:07,765 --> 00:29:09,925
Speaker 3: will continue to survive than I did.

574
00:29:10,605 --> 00:29:14,405
Speaker 1: And I will, Yeah you will, Yeah you have.

575
00:29:14,605 --> 00:29:18,845
Speaker 2: That's incredible, isn't it Funny? Has something that just seems

576
00:29:19,245 --> 00:29:22,045
Speaker 2: so simple can just cut.

577
00:29:21,845 --> 00:29:25,405
Speaker 1: Through, yeah, the despair years. But you need to hear

578
00:29:25,445 --> 00:29:26,245
Speaker 1: it from someone else.

579
00:29:26,245 --> 00:29:30,045
Speaker 3: And it was the shortest sentence from a woman I

580
00:29:30,085 --> 00:29:34,605
Speaker 3: have never met and never will probably, But she talked

581
00:29:34,645 --> 00:29:36,845
Speaker 3: me through putting the knife back in the kitchen draw.

582
00:29:37,445 --> 00:29:40,245
Speaker 3: She talked me through having a shower and going to bed,

583
00:29:40,845 --> 00:29:43,045
Speaker 3: and she said to me, here's what you need to

584
00:29:43,045 --> 00:29:45,805
Speaker 3: do next. And we made a plan together that I believe.

585
00:29:45,605 --> 00:29:46,525
Speaker 4: Saved my life.

586
00:29:46,645 --> 00:29:47,565
Speaker 1: What was that plan?

587
00:29:48,125 --> 00:29:51,165
Speaker 3: So the next morning we discussed how I was going

588
00:29:51,205 --> 00:29:54,245
Speaker 3: to keep myself safe. We discussed the therapy services I

589
00:29:54,285 --> 00:29:56,885
Speaker 3: was going to get in contact with. We made a

590
00:29:56,925 --> 00:29:59,805
Speaker 3: plan together about if I was unsafe, who I was

591
00:29:59,845 --> 00:30:02,045
Speaker 3: going to call. And she was on that list, but

592
00:30:02,085 --> 00:30:06,725
Speaker 3: there were other people as well. And even now when

593
00:30:06,765 --> 00:30:11,565
Speaker 3: women contact me talking about gambling harm, safety plans of

594
00:30:11,645 --> 00:30:13,645
Speaker 3: what I say, I say, if you're in a position

595
00:30:13,645 --> 00:30:17,045
Speaker 3: where you feel unsafe. I'm not a counselor and I'm

596
00:30:17,045 --> 00:30:19,725
Speaker 3: not an expert, but I am a woman that survived this,

597
00:30:20,205 --> 00:30:23,045
Speaker 3: and I know that the key to surviving yourself is

598
00:30:23,085 --> 00:30:24,725
Speaker 3: making sure you're safe all the time.

599
00:30:25,165 --> 00:30:26,605
Speaker 4: How are we going to keep you safe?

600
00:30:27,005 --> 00:30:30,845
Speaker 1: Not all heroes were capes. Hey, oh sure that's true.

601
00:30:31,525 --> 00:30:32,285
Speaker 1: And that woman.

602
00:30:32,525 --> 00:30:34,325
Speaker 2: You know the people on the other end of the

603
00:30:34,325 --> 00:30:36,405
Speaker 2: finite lifeline, they are extraordinary.

604
00:30:37,205 --> 00:30:37,525
Speaker 4: Yeah.

605
00:30:37,845 --> 00:30:41,845
Speaker 2: Like any addiction, alcoholism or drugs, or sex or shopping,

606
00:30:42,565 --> 00:30:46,405
Speaker 2: gambling is something that requires daily management. What does that

607
00:30:46,445 --> 00:30:47,645
Speaker 2: actually look like for you?

608
00:30:48,285 --> 00:30:51,925
Speaker 3: Well, the self exclusion program, I believe is the only

609
00:30:52,045 --> 00:30:55,725
Speaker 3: reason why I stopped gambling. So the requirements for doing

610
00:30:55,765 --> 00:30:57,565
Speaker 3: that vary from state to state.

611
00:30:57,725 --> 00:30:58,405
Speaker 1: What does it mean?

612
00:30:58,925 --> 00:30:59,685
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, sure.

613
00:30:59,725 --> 00:31:01,285
Speaker 3: The way you do it in Adelaide is you go

614
00:31:01,365 --> 00:31:04,085
Speaker 3: to the Office of Consumer and Business Services, who manage

615
00:31:04,125 --> 00:31:07,405
Speaker 3: the program, and you say, I have an issue with gambling.

616
00:31:07,445 --> 00:31:10,485
Speaker 3: I would like to be banned from gambling venues and

617
00:31:10,645 --> 00:31:13,285
Speaker 3: identify to them the venues that you would like to

618
00:31:13,325 --> 00:31:15,805
Speaker 3: be banned from. But I knew for me that that

619
00:31:15,965 --> 00:31:19,365
Speaker 3: wasn't going to work because if I knew the venues

620
00:31:19,405 --> 00:31:21,605
Speaker 3: I was banned from, I'd just drive further out and

621
00:31:21,765 --> 00:31:24,525
Speaker 3: pick a different one. So I said to them, I'm

622
00:31:24,565 --> 00:31:27,085
Speaker 3: happy to do that, but I would like it to

623
00:31:27,125 --> 00:31:30,365
Speaker 3: be a selection of venues within Adelaide, and I would

624
00:31:30,445 --> 00:31:32,725
Speaker 3: like there to be a note within the order, because

625
00:31:32,725 --> 00:31:36,525
Speaker 3: they make a formal order under the legislation barring you

626
00:31:36,605 --> 00:31:39,445
Speaker 3: from entering the premises. I would like a note to

627
00:31:39,485 --> 00:31:41,565
Speaker 3: be in the order that says I can only receive

628
00:31:41,565 --> 00:31:43,925
Speaker 3: a copy and details of the venues that I am

629
00:31:43,965 --> 00:31:46,805
Speaker 3: banned from if I ring up three separate times on

630
00:31:46,885 --> 00:31:49,925
Speaker 3: three separate days to get the information. And the woman,

631
00:31:50,085 --> 00:31:53,285
Speaker 3: luckily who I was speaking to assisting me through this process, said,

632
00:31:53,325 --> 00:31:55,685
Speaker 3: we've never done that before, but that's a really good idea.

633
00:31:55,725 --> 00:31:56,525
Speaker 4: I'm happy to do that.

634
00:31:56,725 --> 00:31:59,685
Speaker 3: Talk me through that, because I knew if I didn't

635
00:31:59,725 --> 00:32:03,125
Speaker 3: do that, I would be able to ring up get

636
00:32:03,165 --> 00:32:06,045
Speaker 3: a list of the venues emailed to me within fifteen minutes,

637
00:32:06,085 --> 00:32:08,805
Speaker 3: because I'd done it before when I said to them

638
00:32:09,405 --> 00:32:11,885
Speaker 3: I need to be banned. Please ban me from the

639
00:32:11,885 --> 00:32:13,925
Speaker 3: selection of venues and don't tell me what they are.

640
00:32:14,485 --> 00:32:16,885
Speaker 3: Probably two months after that, I rang them and said,

641
00:32:17,085 --> 00:32:18,845
Speaker 3: let me know what venues I'm banned from. I might

642
00:32:18,885 --> 00:32:19,565
Speaker 3: want to add more.

643
00:32:19,605 --> 00:32:22,085
Speaker 4: And I had the list in my inbox within fifteen minutes.

644
00:32:23,605 --> 00:32:26,525
Speaker 2: So you tested the system, you found the weak points,

645
00:32:26,565 --> 00:32:29,645
Speaker 2: and you almost designed a more full proof system.

646
00:32:29,805 --> 00:32:33,285
Speaker 3: I did because I knew for me that if I

647
00:32:33,445 --> 00:32:37,485
Speaker 3: had access to that information immediately I was stuffed.

648
00:32:37,685 --> 00:32:38,685
Speaker 4: It wasn't going to work.

649
00:32:39,205 --> 00:32:42,445
Speaker 3: But the thing with self exclusion, and this is the

650
00:32:42,485 --> 00:32:46,365
Speaker 3: important part for me, is because I have a legal qualification,

651
00:32:47,085 --> 00:32:49,285
Speaker 3: if I am found in a venue and that self

652
00:32:49,285 --> 00:32:52,165
Speaker 3: exclusion order is enforced, it will affect my career.

653
00:32:52,325 --> 00:32:53,965
Speaker 1: So the consequences are high.

654
00:32:54,165 --> 00:32:57,365
Speaker 3: Yes, I had to put myself in a position where

655
00:32:58,325 --> 00:33:02,805
Speaker 3: my life and livelihood would be threatened if I.

656
00:33:02,765 --> 00:33:03,685
Speaker 4: Was found in a venue.

657
00:33:03,725 --> 00:33:05,605
Speaker 1: He need stakes, Yeah.

658
00:33:05,285 --> 00:33:07,805
Speaker 3: And they needed to be high. I needed to put

659
00:33:07,805 --> 00:33:10,165
Speaker 3: the most important thing too me me on the line,

660
00:33:10,245 --> 00:33:13,125
Speaker 3: which was my career, to enable me to succeed.

661
00:33:13,405 --> 00:33:14,925
Speaker 2: There will be a lot of people listening to this

662
00:33:15,445 --> 00:33:18,485
Speaker 2: who gambling harm is not the problem for them, but

663
00:33:18,565 --> 00:33:22,845
Speaker 2: someone they love. You can't do that exclusion for someone else,

664
00:33:22,885 --> 00:33:23,325
Speaker 2: can you.

665
00:33:23,405 --> 00:33:24,085
Speaker 4: No, you can't.

666
00:33:24,405 --> 00:33:27,365
Speaker 3: The person has to be involved, but there are support

667
00:33:27,445 --> 00:33:31,205
Speaker 3: services out there who will help you negotiate that process.

668
00:33:31,765 --> 00:33:35,245
Speaker 3: If the person doesn't want to be self excluded, you

669
00:33:35,285 --> 00:33:36,005
Speaker 3: can't make them.

670
00:33:36,085 --> 00:33:38,445
Speaker 4: They have to be ready to do that for you.

671
00:33:38,565 --> 00:33:41,325
Speaker 1: Is it just Pokey's or is it other types of gambling.

672
00:33:41,005 --> 00:33:42,405
Speaker 4: Only ever been just Poky's.

673
00:33:42,725 --> 00:33:45,285
Speaker 2: When Pokey's got blocked, you didn't just go, Okay, i'll

674
00:33:45,285 --> 00:33:47,605
Speaker 2: do sports better, I'll do something else.

675
00:33:47,925 --> 00:33:49,685
Speaker 3: No, I didn't. But I had a bit of weird

676
00:33:49,685 --> 00:33:53,165
Speaker 3: addiction transfer. In the first instance, I got obsessed with

677
00:33:53,565 --> 00:33:57,125
Speaker 3: claw machines that you win toys from because I think

678
00:33:57,165 --> 00:34:00,205
Speaker 3: that it's a similar kind of dopamine hit. Yeah, and

679
00:34:00,285 --> 00:34:02,845
Speaker 3: I kind of once people in my life realized that

680
00:34:02,845 --> 00:34:04,725
Speaker 3: that was a problem for me, because it became pretty

681
00:34:04,725 --> 00:34:07,245
Speaker 3: obvious when I got good and won a whole bunch

682
00:34:07,285 --> 00:34:09,005
Speaker 3: of toys and they were sitting in my place.

683
00:34:09,405 --> 00:34:12,125
Speaker 4: People hang around going, yeah, you're a woman that's in

684
00:34:12,165 --> 00:34:14,445
Speaker 4: her forties, why have you got hips of these toys?

685
00:34:14,725 --> 00:34:17,125
Speaker 2: So oh, did you feel ashamed of that as well?

686
00:34:17,205 --> 00:34:18,565
Speaker 2: Or could you kind of laugh about it?

687
00:34:18,845 --> 00:34:20,645
Speaker 4: I was proud of it because I was good and

688
00:34:20,725 --> 00:34:21,765
Speaker 4: I kept winning.

689
00:34:22,485 --> 00:34:25,285
Speaker 2: And it wasn't called a bad word like it wasn't

690
00:34:25,845 --> 00:34:26,605
Speaker 2: yeah right.

691
00:34:26,885 --> 00:34:29,965
Speaker 3: But I've always had the kind of focus I guess

692
00:34:30,005 --> 00:34:33,605
Speaker 3: where once I've committed to something, I go all out.

693
00:34:33,645 --> 00:34:36,205
Speaker 3: Like a good friend says to me, I've got two speeds,

694
00:34:36,285 --> 00:34:39,925
Speaker 3: super fast and stop. And my addiction and my problems

695
00:34:39,925 --> 00:34:42,845
Speaker 3: with gambling were super fast and stop. Right now, I'm stop,

696
00:34:43,485 --> 00:34:46,605
Speaker 3: but I believe that at any point, if I don't

697
00:34:46,605 --> 00:34:49,205
Speaker 3: properly manage this, I'll go back to super.

698
00:34:48,925 --> 00:34:52,205
Speaker 1: Fast after this shortbreak.

699
00:34:52,245 --> 00:34:55,525
Speaker 2: How Anna stays so but how she stays on the wagon,

700
00:34:55,605 --> 00:34:58,485
Speaker 2: And what not to do if someone in your life,

701
00:34:58,685 --> 00:35:04,045
Speaker 2: someone you love, has a gambling addiction, have you fallen

702
00:35:04,085 --> 00:35:07,485
Speaker 2: off the wagon? In the time between self exclusion and.

703
00:35:07,445 --> 00:35:11,685
Speaker 3: Now, I've had one bad relay, but that was as

704
00:35:11,725 --> 00:35:15,045
Speaker 3: a result of other issues that were happening in my life,

705
00:35:15,485 --> 00:35:17,725
Speaker 3: and I was in a position where I knew that

706
00:35:17,805 --> 00:35:20,645
Speaker 3: I wasn't banned where I was, so I was not

707
00:35:20,965 --> 00:35:24,765
Speaker 3: in the Adelaide City area, and I was like, the

708
00:35:24,885 --> 00:35:28,085
Speaker 3: venues right here. Everything in my life is crap, which

709
00:35:28,125 --> 00:35:30,485
Speaker 3: is what the thought process was when this was really

710
00:35:30,485 --> 00:35:31,045
Speaker 3: bad for me.

711
00:35:31,725 --> 00:35:34,325
Speaker 4: I'll just do it. No one's going to know by myself.

712
00:35:35,285 --> 00:35:36,085
Speaker 4: And it was bad.

713
00:35:36,405 --> 00:35:39,165
Speaker 3: It was hundreds of dollars and it was really quick,

714
00:35:39,165 --> 00:35:42,445
Speaker 3: and I had never played pokeys with note acceptors, and

715
00:35:42,485 --> 00:35:45,085
Speaker 3: I was shocked at how quickly I lost the money.

716
00:35:46,005 --> 00:35:50,485
Speaker 2: So what have you done to guard against that happening again?

717
00:35:50,645 --> 00:35:55,845
Speaker 3: I've extended my self exclusion to the entire country and

718
00:35:55,885 --> 00:35:58,165
Speaker 3: it was a bit of a process to get it done,

719
00:35:58,285 --> 00:36:00,365
Speaker 3: but it's worth it for me because now I know

720
00:36:00,445 --> 00:36:02,925
Speaker 3: I can go anywhere and feel safe knowing that I

721
00:36:02,965 --> 00:36:04,845
Speaker 3: won't be in that situation where I might have the

722
00:36:04,925 --> 00:36:05,685
Speaker 3: relapse again.

723
00:36:06,085 --> 00:36:10,685
Speaker 2: When you have had those moments of relapse, how have

724
00:36:10,765 --> 00:36:14,445
Speaker 2: you sort of forgiven yourself and loved yourself enough to

725
00:36:14,485 --> 00:36:16,245
Speaker 2: get back on the wagon, Like because there's a real

726
00:36:16,285 --> 00:36:18,245
Speaker 2: sense of, oh, well, it's all ruined now, like I

727
00:36:18,285 --> 00:36:19,885
Speaker 2: may as well just forget it.

728
00:36:19,885 --> 00:36:22,845
Speaker 3: It's always my mum because she's always been there for me,

729
00:36:23,525 --> 00:36:27,405
Speaker 3: and I always think, if I can't, I'm going to cry.

730
00:36:27,645 --> 00:36:30,005
Speaker 3: If I can't do this for myself, I'm going to

731
00:36:30,045 --> 00:36:33,805
Speaker 3: do it for her because I love her so much.

732
00:36:33,845 --> 00:36:36,445
Speaker 3: She's been through so much in her life and the

733
00:36:36,525 --> 00:36:39,325
Speaker 3: last thing she needs is for me not to be tough.

734
00:36:39,845 --> 00:36:42,925
Speaker 3: So I continue based on I'm from a long line

735
00:36:42,965 --> 00:36:45,245
Speaker 3: of strong women, I can tell, and I want to

736
00:36:45,285 --> 00:36:48,685
Speaker 3: make sure that that continues past me as well.

737
00:36:50,165 --> 00:36:51,565
Speaker 1: How long have you been in recovery?

738
00:36:52,365 --> 00:36:54,685
Speaker 4: Truly clean? Five years?

739
00:36:55,085 --> 00:36:58,125
Speaker 3: Although the relapse that I just talked about was about

740
00:36:58,165 --> 00:37:02,525
Speaker 3: four months ago and it was one day in my life,

741
00:37:02,605 --> 00:37:06,125
Speaker 3: and I've accepted the fact that it occurred, but I

742
00:37:06,165 --> 00:37:10,685
Speaker 3: still consider myself clean for five years. The period of

743
00:37:10,805 --> 00:37:14,485
Speaker 3: severe addiction was certainly in my twenties, and there were

744
00:37:14,645 --> 00:37:17,285
Speaker 3: periods of time throughout my thirties where it popped up

745
00:37:17,325 --> 00:37:19,565
Speaker 3: again and then went down and popped up and went down.

746
00:37:19,845 --> 00:37:24,125
Speaker 3: But yeah, the past five years have been gold for me.

747
00:37:24,925 --> 00:37:27,485
Speaker 1: Are you in a lot of debt still from that time?

748
00:37:27,925 --> 00:37:29,325
Speaker 4: Zero? I've paid it all off.

749
00:37:29,445 --> 00:37:31,565
Speaker 1: Oh well, that must feel good.

750
00:37:31,845 --> 00:37:33,005
Speaker 4: It was hard, but I did it.

751
00:37:34,525 --> 00:37:38,005
Speaker 2: Has that made you feel like you've got some measure

752
00:37:38,005 --> 00:37:39,365
Speaker 2: of control back in your life.

753
00:37:39,845 --> 00:37:42,165
Speaker 3: It has, but it took me a long time to

754
00:37:42,245 --> 00:37:46,165
Speaker 3: feel okay to deal with money. I've got some good

755
00:37:46,205 --> 00:37:49,765
Speaker 3: friends who run a budgeting company who helped me a

756
00:37:49,805 --> 00:37:53,525
Speaker 3: lot recognize the fact that I can manage money. I

757
00:37:53,605 --> 00:37:57,125
Speaker 3: went to a fairly well known national provider of budgeting

758
00:37:57,165 --> 00:38:01,125
Speaker 3: assistance who took my money off me and said, don't worry,

759
00:38:01,165 --> 00:38:03,445
Speaker 3: we'll manage everything. And that put me back a bit

760
00:38:03,525 --> 00:38:06,765
Speaker 3: because I went, hang, in a minute, my whole, the

761
00:38:06,765 --> 00:38:10,485
Speaker 3: core of me and my recovery is being strung. If

762
00:38:10,485 --> 00:38:12,965
Speaker 3: I don't have control over this, it's not going to work.

763
00:38:13,165 --> 00:38:16,805
Speaker 3: So I am very glad to have transitioned out of

764
00:38:16,845 --> 00:38:19,445
Speaker 3: that and to working with my friends and their company

765
00:38:20,165 --> 00:38:22,165
Speaker 3: to help me get to the point where I feel

766
00:38:22,165 --> 00:38:24,205
Speaker 3: okay to manage my money and pay my bills, and

767
00:38:24,245 --> 00:38:25,525
Speaker 3: now I do.

768
00:38:25,565 --> 00:38:28,245
Speaker 2: You work closely with the Alliance for Gambling Reform and

769
00:38:28,285 --> 00:38:32,405
Speaker 2: an initiative called the Untangled Project, which is a not

770
00:38:32,525 --> 00:38:35,885
Speaker 2: for profit space created by for and also with women

771
00:38:35,925 --> 00:38:40,045
Speaker 2: recovering from gambling addictions. How are women's gambling addictions different

772
00:38:40,045 --> 00:38:43,085
Speaker 2: from men's Because when you think about gambling, you often

773
00:38:43,125 --> 00:38:45,165
Speaker 2: think of the face of gambling, of not just being

774
00:38:45,205 --> 00:38:46,805
Speaker 2: an older person but being a man.

775
00:38:47,485 --> 00:38:52,205
Speaker 3: So that's a really good question because women's participation in

776
00:38:52,285 --> 00:38:56,125
Speaker 3: gambling is about the same percentage as men. There's about

777
00:38:56,165 --> 00:38:59,965
Speaker 3: seventy percent of women in Australia will admit to engaging

778
00:38:59,965 --> 00:39:03,005
Speaker 3: in gambling at least once a year, and a significant

779
00:39:03,085 --> 00:39:05,845
Speaker 3: number of those, probably about a third, engage on a

780
00:39:05,885 --> 00:39:09,325
Speaker 3: monthly basis. So the stats are about thirty five percent

781
00:39:09,485 --> 00:39:11,845
Speaker 3: of women who engage on a monthly basis compared to

782
00:39:11,885 --> 00:39:16,405
Speaker 3: about forty two percent of men. And I think that

783
00:39:16,605 --> 00:39:20,005
Speaker 3: quite often when there's language around this issue, it's pitched

784
00:39:20,005 --> 00:39:23,485
Speaker 3: as a man's problem. Men have problem with gambling. You

785
00:39:23,645 --> 00:39:26,725
Speaker 3: see somebody losing lots of money, it's a man. In

786
00:39:26,805 --> 00:39:30,725
Speaker 3: my opinion, this further stigmatizes women because women are just

787
00:39:30,805 --> 00:39:34,725
Speaker 3: as vulnerable as men to this. And there's a wonderful

788
00:39:34,725 --> 00:39:37,685
Speaker 3: woman called doctor Simone McCarthy who works at d COMMUNI,

789
00:39:37,805 --> 00:39:41,285
Speaker 3: who has done some really good focused research on women

790
00:39:41,325 --> 00:39:46,365
Speaker 3: and gambling, and her research actually says that half a

791
00:39:46,445 --> 00:39:49,885
Speaker 3: percent of adult women were classed as problem gamblers. An

792
00:39:49,925 --> 00:39:53,285
Speaker 3: additional one point five percent and five percent were classed

793
00:39:53,325 --> 00:39:56,405
Speaker 3: as moderate and low risk gamblers. And when you do

794
00:39:56,485 --> 00:39:59,885
Speaker 3: the stats and work that out, it corresponds to about

795
00:40:00,005 --> 00:40:03,205
Speaker 3: one in ten women who gamble in the state of

796
00:40:03,285 --> 00:40:06,485
Speaker 3: Victoria are at risk of experience in gambling harms. So

797
00:40:07,125 --> 00:40:10,125
Speaker 3: those stats, to me are absolutely mind blowing, and it's

798
00:40:10,125 --> 00:40:14,085
Speaker 3: why I created the Untangled Project because I think that

799
00:40:14,205 --> 00:40:18,765
Speaker 3: the services for men are pitched at encouraging you to

800
00:40:18,925 --> 00:40:22,405
Speaker 3: speak out, encouraging you to go, hey, mate, I've got

801
00:40:22,405 --> 00:40:24,085
Speaker 3: a problem. We're going to speak about it, and we're

802
00:40:24,085 --> 00:40:27,045
Speaker 3: going to make it public and make it so the

803
00:40:27,085 --> 00:40:30,445
Speaker 3: only way you can recover is by being loud and

804
00:40:30,485 --> 00:40:30,965
Speaker 3: out there.

805
00:40:31,445 --> 00:40:32,085
Speaker 4: Women, in my.

806
00:40:32,125 --> 00:40:34,325
Speaker 3: Experience and the women that I have spoken to may

807
00:40:34,365 --> 00:40:37,325
Speaker 3: not necessarily want to do that, And my project aims

808
00:40:37,405 --> 00:40:41,205
Speaker 3: to show women that they can interact with services in

809
00:40:41,205 --> 00:40:44,205
Speaker 3: a way that's quiet. They can interact in a way

810
00:40:44,245 --> 00:40:47,125
Speaker 3: that allows them to seek information if that's all they need,

811
00:40:47,165 --> 00:40:50,285
Speaker 3: and read things. They can meet with people that are

812
00:40:50,325 --> 00:40:53,245
Speaker 3: associated with my project in most states around the country

813
00:40:53,325 --> 00:40:55,365
Speaker 3: for a coffee, if they need someone to have a

814
00:40:55,445 --> 00:40:59,645
Speaker 3: chat to, or if they want to become more out there,

815
00:41:00,005 --> 00:41:03,045
Speaker 3: there are opportunities to do speaking engagements there. I gave

816
00:41:03,125 --> 00:41:06,645
Speaker 3: evidence in the Crown Casino Royal Commission on behalf of

817
00:41:06,765 --> 00:41:11,085
Speaker 3: Alliance and myself as a lived experience, advocates. So the

818
00:41:11,125 --> 00:41:14,205
Speaker 3: opportunities are there to speak up, but the language and

819
00:41:14,245 --> 00:41:17,805
Speaker 3: the dialogue around this needs to change, because it's not

820
00:41:17,965 --> 00:41:19,285
Speaker 3: just a man's problem.

821
00:41:19,805 --> 00:41:23,645
Speaker 4: It is everybody's problem. Women just don't talk about it.

822
00:41:24,285 --> 00:41:27,605
Speaker 2: I once read that the addictions women are most likely

823
00:41:27,645 --> 00:41:30,445
Speaker 2: to suffer from the ones that aren't mind altering, because

824
00:41:30,445 --> 00:41:34,645
Speaker 2: women have caring responsibilities in many cases, as opposed to

825
00:41:34,885 --> 00:41:40,325
Speaker 2: alcohol and drugs, which are addictions, but they do alter

826
00:41:40,485 --> 00:41:44,285
Speaker 2: your state of consciousness. When women have responsibilities, they will

827
00:41:44,285 --> 00:41:47,685
Speaker 2: turn to things like food and gambling, which you can

828
00:41:47,765 --> 00:41:51,845
Speaker 2: do while still being sober enough to take care of

829
00:41:51,925 --> 00:41:55,285
Speaker 2: children or partners or elderly parents.

830
00:41:55,805 --> 00:41:56,765
Speaker 4: Absolutely right.

831
00:41:57,045 --> 00:41:59,485
Speaker 3: And one of the examples that a woman who I've

832
00:41:59,525 --> 00:42:02,645
Speaker 3: been talking to gave to me was a marriage was

833
00:42:02,645 --> 00:42:06,685
Speaker 3: breaking down, and at ten o'clock at night, if you

834
00:42:06,725 --> 00:42:08,605
Speaker 3: need to get out of the house, where do you

835
00:42:08,645 --> 00:42:11,445
Speaker 3: go to make sure you get that?

836
00:42:11,485 --> 00:42:12,685
Speaker 4: You need to get back quickly.

837
00:42:13,325 --> 00:42:16,085
Speaker 3: You want to go somewhere that keeps you safe, and

838
00:42:16,125 --> 00:42:18,645
Speaker 3: as I mentioned before, or there's not very many places

839
00:42:18,685 --> 00:42:21,485
Speaker 3: at that time of night that will let you in,

840
00:42:21,845 --> 00:42:24,765
Speaker 3: give you a coffee, it's warm, You can spend half

841
00:42:24,805 --> 00:42:27,525
Speaker 3: an hour they're everywhere, so close to your home and

842
00:42:27,565 --> 00:42:30,125
Speaker 3: get back when you need to. So there's a lot

843
00:42:30,125 --> 00:42:32,965
Speaker 3: of reasons women gamble, and there's a lot of reasons

844
00:42:33,005 --> 00:42:37,565
Speaker 3: that women spend time in gambling venues. And the dialogue

845
00:42:37,765 --> 00:42:40,525
Speaker 3: is just starting, I think, to be spoken. But my

846
00:42:40,645 --> 00:42:43,285
Speaker 3: project hopefully will encourage that to be louder.

847
00:42:43,925 --> 00:42:47,085
Speaker 2: We recently spoke on an episode if normally are out

848
00:42:47,125 --> 00:42:52,485
Speaker 2: loud about the gambling companies being big sponsors of sport,

849
00:42:52,565 --> 00:42:54,925
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of talk about that at the moment,

850
00:42:55,125 --> 00:43:01,405
Speaker 2: and demands for legislation to ban the advertising of you know,

851
00:43:01,445 --> 00:43:05,565
Speaker 2: things like sports bet and gambling in family TV shows

852
00:43:05,605 --> 00:43:08,005
Speaker 2: and during sport and on.

853
00:43:06,925 --> 00:43:09,285
Speaker 1: The jerseys of footy players.

854
00:43:10,005 --> 00:43:12,525
Speaker 2: They have so much money and so much marketing power

855
00:43:13,325 --> 00:43:16,205
Speaker 2: and that used to be something that cigarettes did as well. Right,

856
00:43:16,365 --> 00:43:19,125
Speaker 2: it must make you, I mean, how do you feel

857
00:43:19,165 --> 00:43:22,925
Speaker 2: about that conversation at the moment and the lobby groups

858
00:43:23,045 --> 00:43:26,965
Speaker 2: like the big television networks and the sports clubs saying well,

859
00:43:27,445 --> 00:43:30,925
Speaker 2: without this money from the gambling companies, we can't survive.

860
00:43:31,805 --> 00:43:35,405
Speaker 3: I think that the gambling industry is using that conversation

861
00:43:35,565 --> 00:43:39,405
Speaker 3: to target new groups who may not necessarily be as visible.

862
00:43:39,565 --> 00:43:42,845
Speaker 3: So if you think about the way that tobacco companies

863
00:43:42,845 --> 00:43:45,445
Speaker 3: did their advertising in the eighties, it was women in

864
00:43:45,485 --> 00:43:51,565
Speaker 3: short skirts and looking sexy. Lately, gambling companies have started

865
00:43:51,645 --> 00:43:53,605
Speaker 3: using I can't remember the name of the company, but

866
00:43:53,605 --> 00:43:57,005
Speaker 3: they've started using influences to promote sports betting online, so

867
00:43:57,045 --> 00:44:01,445
Speaker 3: targeting younger women who may follow that influencer and go, oh,

868
00:44:01,485 --> 00:44:05,165
Speaker 3: wait a minute, this woman's associated with this gambling company.

869
00:44:05,645 --> 00:44:06,485
Speaker 4: It must be okay.

870
00:44:06,645 --> 00:44:09,405
Speaker 3: I mean, I am guilty of buying a bag that

871
00:44:09,525 --> 00:44:13,085
Speaker 3: my favorite influencer was carrying around because I thought that

872
00:44:13,165 --> 00:44:14,085
Speaker 3: it was right.

873
00:44:14,245 --> 00:44:17,205
Speaker 2: That's where the word comes from. Their influential. They make

874
00:44:17,285 --> 00:44:19,845
Speaker 2: us buy stuff and they make us do stuff exactly.

875
00:44:20,325 --> 00:44:24,685
Speaker 3: So I think that if you look carefully, the gambling

876
00:44:24,685 --> 00:44:28,205
Speaker 3: industry is jumping on board to different ways of pitching

877
00:44:28,285 --> 00:44:31,365
Speaker 3: product to different markets, and women are one of them,

878
00:44:31,405 --> 00:44:34,365
Speaker 3: and young women are one of them. So I think

879
00:44:34,405 --> 00:44:37,165
Speaker 3: it's great that the dialogue is there around sports betting

880
00:44:37,165 --> 00:44:40,365
Speaker 3: because I think it's a really important issue. But I

881
00:44:40,405 --> 00:44:43,805
Speaker 3: think it's broader than what's being reported, because I think

882
00:44:43,885 --> 00:44:48,965
Speaker 3: that new ways of targeting women are just starting to

883
00:44:49,045 --> 00:44:52,285
Speaker 3: come out and need to be part of this discussion

884
00:44:52,365 --> 00:44:55,365
Speaker 3: to be effectively managed because otherwise it's.

885
00:44:55,205 --> 00:44:56,485
Speaker 4: Just going to harm more people.

886
00:44:57,005 --> 00:45:00,765
Speaker 3: So the short answer is, I'm pleased that it's coming

887
00:45:00,765 --> 00:45:03,285
Speaker 3: out into the open, but I'm not sure it's comprehensive

888
00:45:03,405 --> 00:45:05,045
Speaker 3: enough to cover what I think needs.

889
00:45:04,805 --> 00:45:05,445
Speaker 4: To be covered.

890
00:45:05,925 --> 00:45:07,045
Speaker 1: Well, it's important.

891
00:45:07,205 --> 00:45:09,365
Speaker 2: I'm proud to tell you that as a business, So

892
00:45:09,645 --> 00:45:13,405
Speaker 2: we don't accept gambling advertising at Muma Maya because of

893
00:45:13,445 --> 00:45:17,685
Speaker 2: the harm that it does, and because our purpose is

894
00:45:17,725 --> 00:45:19,485
Speaker 2: to make the world a better place for women and girls.

895
00:45:19,525 --> 00:45:21,605
Speaker 2: And I don't think anyone could argue that gambling makes

896
00:45:21,685 --> 00:45:23,685
Speaker 2: the world a better place for anyone except the gambling

897
00:45:23,685 --> 00:45:26,645
Speaker 2: companies who line their pockets. I just want to ask

898
00:45:26,645 --> 00:45:30,645
Speaker 2: you two final questions. The first is about for the

899
00:45:30,685 --> 00:45:33,085
Speaker 2: women and the men who are listening to this, who

900
00:45:33,125 --> 00:45:37,085
Speaker 2: have someone in their life who has a problem with gambling,

901
00:45:37,845 --> 00:45:38,845
Speaker 2: what should they do?

902
00:45:39,165 --> 00:45:40,205
Speaker 1: How can they help?

903
00:45:40,925 --> 00:45:44,165
Speaker 3: As I said, I'm not a counselor or any kind

904
00:45:44,205 --> 00:45:49,205
Speaker 3: of expert, but what helped me was non judgmental listening

905
00:45:50,085 --> 00:45:53,165
Speaker 3: and people not forcing me to do things, being able

906
00:45:53,205 --> 00:45:56,085
Speaker 3: to have the autonomy to do and manage my own

907
00:45:56,165 --> 00:45:59,085
Speaker 3: recovery when I was ready to do that. So, if

908
00:45:59,125 --> 00:46:02,045
Speaker 3: it's your kid that's got a gambling problem. Sometimes all

909
00:46:02,045 --> 00:46:04,605
Speaker 3: they need is for you to wrap them up in

910
00:46:04,605 --> 00:46:06,765
Speaker 3: your arms and tell them that it's going to be okay.

911
00:46:07,445 --> 00:46:09,725
Speaker 3: If it's a kid like me that was autonic in

912
00:46:09,805 --> 00:46:13,125
Speaker 3: managing their recovery, my mum managed it perfectly. She said

913
00:46:13,645 --> 00:46:15,965
Speaker 3: I'm here if you need me when she knew there

914
00:46:15,965 --> 00:46:20,085
Speaker 3: were problems, but she never impacted or tried to insert

915
00:46:20,325 --> 00:46:23,965
Speaker 3: herself into my life. So respecting people's autonomy and their

916
00:46:23,965 --> 00:46:28,325
Speaker 3: recovery is paramount without taking over, because I think that

917
00:46:28,365 --> 00:46:31,965
Speaker 3: if people try and take over a recovery process, it's

918
00:46:32,005 --> 00:46:33,285
Speaker 3: not going to be successful.

919
00:46:33,805 --> 00:46:36,765
Speaker 2: And so long as also the person is not spending

920
00:46:37,405 --> 00:46:41,525
Speaker 2: your money. Absolutely right in a family situation, a lot

921
00:46:41,605 --> 00:46:44,525
Speaker 2: of families are being driven to the brink by people

922
00:46:44,565 --> 00:46:48,645
Speaker 2: spending the resources of the entire family, or of their partner,

923
00:46:49,005 --> 00:46:50,325
Speaker 2: or of their mother or if their child.

924
00:46:50,405 --> 00:46:52,525
Speaker 3: You don't have to come up with you, I mean,

925
00:46:52,565 --> 00:46:54,365
Speaker 3: I guess the biggest thing I can say about that

926
00:46:54,605 --> 00:46:57,565
Speaker 3: is there are allies out there who can help you.

927
00:46:58,045 --> 00:47:01,245
Speaker 3: There are gambling therapy services in every state around the country.

928
00:47:01,365 --> 00:47:03,685
Speaker 3: My project, I'm more than happy to take dms on

929
00:47:03,725 --> 00:47:07,965
Speaker 3: my Instagram. So that's the Untangled project. AUS. I will

930
00:47:07,965 --> 00:47:10,685
Speaker 3: point you and my team will YouTube services that can

931
00:47:10,725 --> 00:47:13,165
Speaker 3: help you regardless of where you are in the country.

932
00:47:13,605 --> 00:47:15,885
Speaker 3: We are people that do this in our spare time, though,

933
00:47:15,925 --> 00:47:20,405
Speaker 3: so we are not an immediate help service. GPS are

934
00:47:20,405 --> 00:47:22,685
Speaker 3: a wealth of knowledge and a source of support in

935
00:47:22,725 --> 00:47:27,845
Speaker 3: this environment, and I think that even organizations like Beyond

936
00:47:27,925 --> 00:47:31,005
Speaker 3: Blue information through the consumer and business services in your

937
00:47:31,005 --> 00:47:34,085
Speaker 3: state or territory, wherever you are, quite often there's support

938
00:47:34,125 --> 00:47:36,885
Speaker 3: services out there that aren't publicized. So it's just a

939
00:47:36,885 --> 00:47:38,765
Speaker 3: matter of digging around and if I can point you

940
00:47:38,805 --> 00:47:40,005
Speaker 3: in the right direction, I will.

941
00:47:40,765 --> 00:47:46,645
Speaker 2: My last question is what's your little treat now? Gambling

942
00:47:46,685 --> 00:47:50,205
Speaker 2: started is a little treat for you and descended into

943
00:47:50,245 --> 00:47:52,205
Speaker 2: the pits of hell.

944
00:47:52,245 --> 00:47:55,685
Speaker 1: What do you do now to give yourself a little treat?

945
00:47:56,485 --> 00:47:59,565
Speaker 3: I have an embarrassing amount of books on my Kindle, if.

946
00:47:59,445 --> 00:48:00,765
Speaker 1: I'm being honest.

947
00:48:00,805 --> 00:48:03,445
Speaker 4: I my books.

948
00:48:03,565 --> 00:48:05,965
Speaker 3: I've started to learn how to make jewelry, which I'm

949
00:48:06,005 --> 00:48:09,445
Speaker 3: not very patient at but learning, and as part of

950
00:48:09,645 --> 00:48:12,605
Speaker 3: my work in the project, what I've also done is

951
00:48:12,685 --> 00:48:17,365
Speaker 3: started studying nutrition and fitness qualifications because I've had I'm

952
00:48:17,405 --> 00:48:19,805
Speaker 3: a weight loss surgery patient and I've lost about eighty

953
00:48:19,845 --> 00:48:22,605
Speaker 3: kilos all up, so I want to create another space

954
00:48:22,685 --> 00:48:25,565
Speaker 3: for women who have had weight loss surgery where there's

955
00:48:25,565 --> 00:48:29,645
Speaker 3: a network of pets who understand and help. So my

956
00:48:29,805 --> 00:48:33,245
Speaker 3: treats for me are terrible, horrible, huge amounts of books,

957
00:48:33,565 --> 00:48:35,685
Speaker 3: but I love and what gets me up in the

958
00:48:35,725 --> 00:48:39,125
Speaker 3: morning is helping women. So creating spaces where trauma can

959
00:48:39,165 --> 00:48:41,485
Speaker 3: be a victory rather than something that holds you back.

960
00:48:41,805 --> 00:48:44,325
Speaker 4: So I consider that a treat and a privilege.

961
00:48:44,445 --> 00:48:47,805
Speaker 2: What an amazing purpose. Anna, Thank you so much, Thank you.

962
00:48:52,005 --> 00:48:52,365
Speaker 1: Friends.

963
00:48:52,365 --> 00:48:55,445
Speaker 2: Anna did talk to her mum before this episode was released.

964
00:48:55,845 --> 00:48:58,285
Speaker 2: We actually delayed it a little bit until she was

965
00:48:58,325 --> 00:49:02,565
Speaker 2: ready to talk to her and then feel okay about

966
00:49:02,605 --> 00:49:05,285
Speaker 2: it being out in the world. And I'm happy to

967
00:49:05,325 --> 00:49:07,325
Speaker 2: tell you that their bond is as strong as ever

968
00:49:08,005 --> 00:49:10,285
Speaker 2: as we thought it would be. Out to Anna's mum,

969
00:49:10,525 --> 00:49:13,125
Speaker 2: if you're listening, and there's a phrase that I love

970
00:49:13,805 --> 00:49:15,925
Speaker 2: and you may have heard me say before, someone out

971
00:49:15,965 --> 00:49:18,805
Speaker 2: there has a wound in the shape of your words.

972
00:49:19,605 --> 00:49:22,685
Speaker 2: And what it means is that by telling our stories

973
00:49:22,965 --> 00:49:28,165
Speaker 2: about things that are vulnerable and sometimes shameful or difficult

974
00:49:28,685 --> 00:49:32,805
Speaker 2: or embarrassing, or even things that we wish had never

975
00:49:32,845 --> 00:49:36,245
Speaker 2: happened or that we could forget. By doing it, we

976
00:49:36,365 --> 00:49:39,485
Speaker 2: actually pay forward a gift to other people who are

977
00:49:39,485 --> 00:49:43,205
Speaker 2: going through something similar, and I have no doubt that

978
00:49:43,245 --> 00:49:46,005
Speaker 2: there are many wounds out there that Anna's.

979
00:49:45,565 --> 00:49:47,765
Speaker 1: Words will help to heal.

980
00:49:48,605 --> 00:49:51,445
Speaker 2: Also, can I just say how amazing are the people

981
00:49:51,445 --> 00:49:55,405
Speaker 2: who volunteer for Lifeline. We often link to Lifeline in

982
00:49:55,485 --> 00:49:58,205
Speaker 2: our show notes, like we will today, but I just

983
00:49:58,285 --> 00:50:00,925
Speaker 2: want to send a special message out to those of

984
00:50:00,965 --> 00:50:03,565
Speaker 2: you who answer these phone calls at all hours from

985
00:50:03,605 --> 00:50:06,525
Speaker 2: people who need love and care like Anna did. You

986
00:50:06,565 --> 00:50:11,005
Speaker 2: are literally saving lives, and maybe I know that they

987
00:50:11,085 --> 00:50:14,645
Speaker 2: always need more people to answer those phones. You might

988
00:50:14,685 --> 00:50:17,765
Speaker 2: want to consider volunteering for Lifeline. I have friends who

989
00:50:17,805 --> 00:50:20,885
Speaker 2: do it, and they say it is the most rewarding,

990
00:50:21,165 --> 00:50:25,285
Speaker 2: enriching time they spend every week. One of the most

991
00:50:25,325 --> 00:50:27,965
Speaker 2: interesting parts of Anna's story, I thought, is how different

992
00:50:28,005 --> 00:50:31,205
Speaker 2: the needs of women are to men when it comes

993
00:50:31,285 --> 00:50:34,805
Speaker 2: to getting help. And that's why her project Untangled is

994
00:50:34,845 --> 00:50:38,245
Speaker 2: so brilliant. It's working to meet women where they are

995
00:50:38,285 --> 00:50:41,445
Speaker 2: with the kind of help that they need, which is

996
00:50:41,485 --> 00:50:44,405
Speaker 2: so important because there's not just one size fits all

997
00:50:44,445 --> 00:50:47,605
Speaker 2: and one approach always works. So we'll link to Untangled

998
00:50:47,605 --> 00:50:49,965
Speaker 2: in our show notes as well, and they say the

999
00:50:50,005 --> 00:50:53,285
Speaker 2: best disinfectant is sunlight. It's so important we continue to

1000
00:50:53,285 --> 00:50:55,605
Speaker 2: bring these stories out of the shadows and the shame

1001
00:50:56,285 --> 00:50:58,725
Speaker 2: and really just shine a light on them so that

1002
00:50:58,765 --> 00:51:02,125
Speaker 2: we can help understand and support each other. So yeah,

1003
00:51:02,205 --> 00:51:05,205
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to Anna for doing just that. The

1004
00:51:05,245 --> 00:51:08,925
Speaker 2: executive producer of No Filter Isnama Brown. She got kicked

1005
00:51:08,925 --> 00:51:11,925
Speaker 2: out of Aino. Wants long story and she particularly wants

1006
00:51:11,965 --> 00:51:15,005
Speaker 2: to hear from you about interviews that you think.

1007
00:51:14,805 --> 00:51:15,325
Speaker 4: We should do.

1008
00:51:15,405 --> 00:51:17,885
Speaker 2: Stories you'd like us to tell. Maybe you have a

1009
00:51:17,925 --> 00:51:21,925
Speaker 2: story that you'd like to share. Maybe your words will

1010
00:51:21,965 --> 00:51:24,325
Speaker 2: match the wounds of someone out there. They don't just

1011
00:51:24,365 --> 00:51:26,525
Speaker 2: have to be sad stories. They can be happy stories,

1012
00:51:26,565 --> 00:51:29,965
Speaker 2: amazing stories. We really cover the gamut here on No Filter,

1013
00:51:30,565 --> 00:51:33,885
Speaker 2: so you'll find our email in the show notes drop

1014
00:51:33,965 --> 00:51:36,725
Speaker 2: us A line. Audio production and sound design on the

1015
00:51:36,765 --> 00:51:39,885
Speaker 2: show is by Tom Lyon and as our resident man,

1016
00:51:40,165 --> 00:51:43,765
Speaker 2: he's sick of seeing gambling ads targeting young men and

1017
00:51:43,845 --> 00:51:48,085
Speaker 2: infiltrating every sporting experience in Australia. As the mother of

1018
00:51:48,125 --> 00:51:52,205
Speaker 2: two young men, I bloody well agree. We don't accept

1019
00:51:52,285 --> 00:51:56,605
Speaker 2: gambling advertising on Mamma Mia. We never have because we

1020
00:51:56,725 --> 00:52:00,365
Speaker 2: know that gambling causes a lot of harm, and the

1021
00:52:00,445 --> 00:52:05,165
Speaker 2: victims of that harm so often are women. Anyway, thank

1022
00:52:05,205 --> 00:52:05,885
Speaker 2: you for listening.

1023
00:52:06,285 --> 00:52:06,885
Speaker 1: Lots of love,