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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. Hello Omeya Friedman and the team at

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Speaker 1: Mamma Mea are bringing you over one hundred hours of

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Speaker 1: the best of the best from across our award winning

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Speaker 1: podcasts to give you the hot pod Summer of your dreams.

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Speaker 1: Here at No Filter, we have selected the very best

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Speaker 1: stories of human resilience, of escaping from colts and tsunamis,

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Speaker 1: of surviving in prison, surviving a landslide, surviving a broken heart,

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Speaker 1: and so much more. Today, I'm bringing you the story

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Speaker 1: of Kylie Moore Gilbert, the Australian academic who spent eight

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Speaker 1: hundred and four days in an Iranian prison. But that,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not, was just the beginning of her story.

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Speaker 1: In the time since we recorded this conversation, Kylie has

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Speaker 1: remarried a guy called Sami Shah. He's a comedian, and

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Speaker 1: she's given birth to a little girl called Leah. But

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Speaker 1: the road to get to this point in her life,

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Speaker 1: this happy point, has been really long and incredibly rocky.

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Speaker 1: You won't believe this story that she's about to tell you.

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Speaker 1: It was the twelfth of September twenty eighteen. An Australian

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Speaker 1: academic Kylie more Gilbert, was making her way through Tehran's

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Speaker 1: International Airport in Iran. She'd been in Iran for three

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Speaker 1: weeks for a work trip. She was a lecturer at

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Speaker 1: Melbourne University specializing in Islamic studies, and Kylie had been

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Speaker 1: invited to the country by another university. All in all,

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Speaker 1: she'd had a really great time there. But now she

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Speaker 1: was on her way home, and if she was being honest,

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Speaker 1: she was slightly relieved because for the past twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: Kylie couldn't help but feel like she was being watched,

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Speaker 1: and she couldn't wait to get home to her husband

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Speaker 1: and her parents and shake this feeling. She reached into

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Speaker 1: a bag, pulled her passport out, and she was getting

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Speaker 1: ready to check in at the airport after texting her

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Speaker 1: parents to say I'll behind soon, when she felt a

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Speaker 1: tap on the shoulder. What happened next, Well, that's for

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Speaker 1: Kylie to tell you, but it would be eight one

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Speaker 1: hundred and four days until she'd ever see her passport again.

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Speaker 1: From Mom and Me, you're listening to No Filter, a

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Speaker 1: podcast where people like Kylie tell their stories very candidly

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Speaker 1: and aren't afraid to be vulnerable. My name is Miya Friedman.

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Speaker 1: After being detained and then arrested at the airport, Kylie

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Speaker 1: Moore Gilbert spent eight hundred and four days incarcerated in

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Speaker 1: Tehran's Evin and Quai Chak prisons for espionage, a crime

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Speaker 1: she never committed. During those two and a half years

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Speaker 1: that she spent in prison, most of it in solitary

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Speaker 1: confinement from the ages of thirty one to almost thirty four,

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Speaker 1: Kylie had no bed, no mattress, no pillow, no tampons,

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Speaker 1: and for some of it no lights and no windows

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Speaker 1: and no toilets. Kylie was completely cut off from the

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Speaker 1: outside world. She was an innocent Australian stuck in a

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Speaker 1: harsh foreign prison with no way of getting home. And

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Speaker 1: she joins me now for a very special episode of

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Speaker 1: No Filter. Kylie, tell me a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: your life was like before September twenty eighteen when you

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Speaker 1: went to Iran.

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Speaker 2: I think I was living a pretty regular life really.

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Speaker 2: I am originally from New South Wales. I'd spent several

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Speaker 2: years living overseas, mainly in the UK, but I'd moved

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Speaker 2: back to Australia and moved to Melbourne. I did my

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Speaker 2: PhD at Melbourne UNI, and I was at that time

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Speaker 2: working then as a lecture at Melbourne UNI, lecturing in

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Speaker 2: Middle East history and politics. I had recently bought a

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Speaker 2: house in the far flng Dandenong Rangers, quite a commute

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Speaker 2: from Melbourne, but you know, as a young person trying

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Speaker 2: to get my foot on the housing ladder, that was

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Speaker 2: the best I could do. I'd recently got married, so

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Speaker 2: I was in my early thirties, and I guess living

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Speaker 2: a pretty regular life, you know, starting off my career,

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Speaker 2: starting you know, a relationship, buying a house. So I

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Speaker 2: was in that kind of that place, and I thought

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Speaker 2: I was going to Iran for three weeks and that

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Speaker 2: my life would continue in that vein afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Iran's not somewhere that most people would visit, certainly not

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Speaker 1: for a holiday. But you were going for work. What

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Speaker 1: were you doing there?

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Speaker 2: So I'd been invited to go to Iran actually by

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Speaker 2: an Iranian university and they were running a program for

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Speaker 2: scholars in my field to learn more about Shia Islam

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Speaker 2: in Iran, and it's the majority religion of Iran. But

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Speaker 2: it's actually a minority sect within Islam more.

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Speaker 3: Broadly, so I guess.

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Speaker 2: It was a soft cultural outreach program being run by

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Speaker 2: an Iranian university to try to link themselves more strongly

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Speaker 2: to foreign universities and build research contacts, that kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: And I just thought it would be really interesting. I'd

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Speaker 2: always wanted to visit Iran, and my research wasn't on

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Speaker 2: Iran at all. It wasn't on Shia Islam at all,

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Speaker 2: but I had touched on Shia Islam in other research

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Speaker 2: projects i'd done, so it was sort of relevant to me.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I just thought, why not, Like if someone

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Speaker 2: invites you to go to an interesting and exotic foreign

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Speaker 2: location for work, and the university approved my trip and

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Speaker 2: paid for the flights and everything, so why not, Like

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Speaker 2: I thought it would be a good professional opportunity.

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Speaker 1: The day you would do to flay home, you're arrested

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Speaker 1: at the airport. What are your memories of that day?

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Speaker 2: I remember the arrest itself quite well, although the day

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Speaker 2: in the lead up to the arrest, I was quite anxious,

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Speaker 2: and I think I was I cottoned on. As you

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Speaker 2: know from the book, I knew that something was wrong

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Speaker 2: before I was arrested. I just never in a million

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Speaker 2: years thought that i'd be on a flight list, banned

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Speaker 2: from living the country. And I, you know, some men

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Speaker 2: had come to my hotel the day before and asked

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Speaker 2: about me, asked what my room number was, this kind

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Speaker 2: of thing to the receptionist, and he actually told me

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Speaker 2: he gave me heads up about it. So I was

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Speaker 2: already nervous from that, and I thought, Okay, it's good

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Speaker 2: I'm leaving the country. I don't know who these men

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Speaker 2: are or what they want, but I'm flying out anyway,

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Speaker 2: so as long as I avoid them until then, it'll

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Speaker 2: be okay. So I was a little bit highly strung.

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Speaker 2: I didn't really sleep very much that night the night

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Speaker 2: before my flight, and you know, nobody came up to

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Speaker 2: me during the day or anything. The men didn't come

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Speaker 2: back to the hotel while I was there. And I

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Speaker 2: went to the airport with all my stuff, checked my

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Speaker 2: baggage in and I was walking to immigration with my

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Speaker 2: passport ready to be stamped, when people who I later

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Speaker 2: learned were the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps i LGC approached

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Speaker 2: me and touched me on the shoulder and took me

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Speaker 2: away to an interrogation room inside the air and told

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Speaker 2: me I wouldn't be making my flight. So my memory

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Speaker 2: in the lead up was just sort of one of

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Speaker 2: anxiety and being ready to leave the country, saying okay, something,

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Speaker 2: he is not right. It's good that I'm living today.

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Speaker 2: But the actual moment of the arrest itself is quite

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Speaker 2: sharp in my memory. And you know, I was interrogated

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Speaker 2: for several hours in that airport room before being moved elsewhere,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, I remember it quite vividly.

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Speaker 1: Where were you taken from the airport?

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Speaker 2: I was first taken to a kind of a safe house,

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Speaker 2: an apartment clearly controlled or owned by the IRGC in

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Speaker 2: northern Tehran. It was clearly used for filming purposes.

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Speaker 3: The living room of the apartment was.

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Speaker 2: Set up like a film studio, and I wasn't filmed there,

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Speaker 2: so I'm not sure why. But actually I was allowed

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Speaker 2: to take a nap for an hour amidst all the

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Speaker 2: film paraphernalia.

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Speaker 3: So I got to see it up close.

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Speaker 2: So they were clearly using it, I guess, to film

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Speaker 2: prisoners or false confessions or something like that. It was

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Speaker 2: clearly used for interrogations in other security related purposes, and

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Speaker 2: I was interrogated there overnight without you know, with one

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Speaker 2: hour's sleep at dawn, and after that interrogation, I was

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Speaker 2: you know, almost passed up from fatigue by that point,

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Speaker 2: and I was taken to a hotel also under their

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Speaker 2: control in Tehran, and I was there for one week,

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Speaker 2: interrogated on a daily basis by the same group of people.

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Speaker 1: What were they asking you, Kylie, Like, what was their accusation?

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Speaker 2: I think they weren't clear at that point what they

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Speaker 2: were wanting to accuse me of. They were interested in

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Speaker 2: recruiting me as some sort of informa or spire to

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Speaker 2: work for them, because they asked me about it within

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Speaker 2: the first twenty four hours. They kind of informally sounded

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Speaker 2: me out, which was bizarre to me because I had

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Speaker 2: no idea who they were or what was going on,

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Speaker 2: so I kind of didn't take it seriously. At that point,

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Speaker 2: they had decided I was suspicious and they were just

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Speaker 2: digging to try to figure out why and what they

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Speaker 2: could get on me, so they asked me about absolutely everything. Really,

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Speaker 2: it was when they got into all of my email accounts,

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Speaker 2: and I initially had given them fake passwords or hadn't

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Speaker 2: told them about my primary email address. But in the

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Speaker 2: end they got all of it out, and I gave

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Speaker 2: them the passwords because I didn't really have a.

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Speaker 3: Choice at that point.

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Speaker 2: And when they went through my emails, they found messages

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Speaker 2: from people, They found topics or subjects or information that

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Speaker 2: then they were able to expand upon in the interrogation,

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Speaker 2: and it kind of snowballed from there. But you know,

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Speaker 2: they initially wanted to know about my research, what I

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Speaker 2: was doing in Iran, the research trip I'd taken to

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Speaker 2: Bahrain from my PhD a few years earlier, visits to

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Speaker 2: Israel that i'd made, my ex husband and his links

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Speaker 2: to Israel, even everything even including my family history and

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Speaker 2: what my great grandparents were doing and stuff like that,

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Speaker 2: which I didn't know very much about at all. They

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Speaker 2: were really digging around everywhere they could at that point.

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Speaker 1: When you were in the hotel and previously in the

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Speaker 1: safe house, and even when you were being interrogated at

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Speaker 1: the airport, what did you think was going to happen?

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Speaker 2: I had no conception whatsoever that I would be spect

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Speaker 2: to prison. I just like I would not have believed

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Speaker 2: it if had they told me, because I'd done nothing wrong.

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Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, this is a misunderstanding. I will explain

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Speaker 2: to them that I've done nothing wrong. I'll show them

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Speaker 2: that I'm innocent. They'll interrogate me and then they'll let

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Speaker 2: me go in and get back on the plane and

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Speaker 2: fly back to Australia. So I cooperated them at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: I tried to answer their questions because I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I've got nothing to hide, I haven't done anything. So

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Speaker 2: you know that when they're finished with me, when they've

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Speaker 2: asked me all the questions they have to ask, they're

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Speaker 2: just going to let me go home. And they were

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Speaker 2: lying to me and telling me that as well, so,

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Speaker 2: especially in the hotel, led me to believe that once

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Speaker 2: I'd cooperated and done everything they needed me to do,

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Speaker 2: then they would actually themselves buy me a ticket and

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Speaker 2: put me on a plane. So I was naive, and

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Speaker 2: at the beginning that's what I thought would happen.

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Speaker 1: It was just you alone in a room with up

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Speaker 1: to a dozen men. Were you worried feel safety? Did

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Speaker 1: they hurt you? Were you worried that you would be

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I was.

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Speaker 3: This was one of my first fears.

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Speaker 2: One of the first times that I felt physically unsafe

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Speaker 2: was when there was a large scrum of men around

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Speaker 2: me and I because I didn't know who they were,

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't tell me who they were. They weren't wearing uniforms,

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Speaker 2: they were.

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Speaker 3: All playing clothes. I didn't speak fasty.

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Speaker 2: They were all quite aggressive and hostile in the way

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Speaker 2: they were speaking with one another. And there was somebody

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Speaker 2: who was an appointed translator, but A didn't speak fluent English,

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Speaker 2: but B didn't translate anything other than a direct request

218
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Speaker 2: of me into English. So I was just bewildered by

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Speaker 2: what was going on. And there were so many men,

220
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Speaker 2: and they were quite hostile and aggressive, and I was actually,

221
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Speaker 2: you know, when they put me in the hotel, I

222
00:12:22,765 --> 00:12:25,045
Speaker 2: didn't really sleep the first night because I was afraid

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Speaker 2: that one of them would come in and do something

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Speaker 2: to me, or they would come back in the middle

225
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Speaker 2: of the night, or I later learned actually they were

226
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Speaker 2: cameras everywhere in that hotel. In my bedroom, they were

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Speaker 2: hidden cameras, so they would have been watching me get undressed,

228
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Speaker 2: this kind of thing. I hope there weren't cameras in

229
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Speaker 2: the showers, but I wouldn't know, so, you know, I

230
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Speaker 2: definitely had that fear.

231
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Speaker 3: You know, these are highly highly.

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Speaker 2: Religious men that see Western women uncovered. I mean I

233
00:12:54,085 --> 00:12:56,525
Speaker 2: was wearing a hdehob, but not at all of the

234
00:12:56,605 --> 00:12:59,525
Speaker 2: level of hitjob that they would advocate. They you know,

235
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Speaker 2: they would have seen me as fair game maybe, and

236
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Speaker 2: I was being in the middle, you know, being a

237
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Speaker 2: scholar of the Middle East. I have encountered these kinds

238
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Speaker 2: of people before, and I know that often they are

239
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Speaker 2: quite they can be.

240
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Speaker 3: They see Western women as objects.

241
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Speaker 2: Of harassment sometimes, and I did feel quite afraid that

242
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Speaker 2: they would assault me.

243
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Speaker 1: You were taken to Evan prison and put into solitary confinement.

244
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Speaker 1: What was it like physically when you were taken there?

245
00:13:30,085 --> 00:13:32,205
Speaker 1: And did you know that's where you were going?

246
00:13:32,725 --> 00:13:35,405
Speaker 2: No, I had no idea a that I was going

247
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Speaker 2: to prison and be that happy to put in solitary

248
00:13:38,005 --> 00:13:41,405
Speaker 2: I actually when they put me in the solitary cell,

249
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Speaker 2: they'd given me the prison uniform to change into, and

250
00:13:44,365 --> 00:13:46,925
Speaker 2: I just thought this was like a change room for

251
00:13:47,005 --> 00:13:50,165
Speaker 2: the uniform. It was so small, like couldn't it didn't

252
00:13:50,205 --> 00:13:52,405
Speaker 2: even cross my mind I would have to sleep in there.

253
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Speaker 3: I literally thought, she's put me.

254
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Speaker 2: In the room, close the door, I'm going to get changed,

255
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Speaker 2: and then she's going to take me to the real cell.

256
00:13:59,325 --> 00:14:02,325
Speaker 2: It was tiny, It had no window, no natural light.

257
00:14:02,485 --> 00:14:04,445
Speaker 2: There was just a light on twenty four hours a

258
00:14:04,485 --> 00:14:07,365
Speaker 2: day in the ceiling, a very bright led sort of thing.

259
00:14:08,045 --> 00:14:13,205
Speaker 2: No furniture, no stimulation whatsoever, designed to torment you, designed

260
00:14:13,245 --> 00:14:17,365
Speaker 2: to break you for the interrogation, so complete sort of

261
00:14:17,485 --> 00:14:21,965
Speaker 2: sensory deprivation you could there was nothing to do whatsoever.

262
00:14:22,125 --> 00:14:24,525
Speaker 2: The only object in the room was a telephone for

263
00:14:24,605 --> 00:14:26,925
Speaker 2: calling the guards. But because I couldn't speak Fasting and

264
00:14:26,965 --> 00:14:28,645
Speaker 2: they couldn't speak English.

265
00:14:28,605 --> 00:14:31,165
Speaker 3: If I called them.

266
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Speaker 2: Nothing would happen because I'm saying I need to go

267
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Speaker 2: to the toilet, and they didn't understand what that meant

268
00:14:34,405 --> 00:14:35,765
Speaker 2: did so they would just hang up on me.

269
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Speaker 3: And so I was just in this horrible box.

270
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Speaker 2: Unable to communicate with anyone and not really understanding what

271
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Speaker 2: was going on.

272
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Speaker 1: How did you go to the toilet?

273
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Speaker 2: Initially I would bang on the door and they didn't

274
00:14:48,565 --> 00:14:50,685
Speaker 2: like that. They didn't like any making of noise. So

275
00:14:50,765 --> 00:14:52,365
Speaker 2: they would come and open the door and I would

276
00:14:52,445 --> 00:14:54,925
Speaker 2: be sort of toilet toilet and they understood that, and

277
00:14:55,045 --> 00:14:58,405
Speaker 2: they would take me to the bathroom only when they

278
00:14:58,445 --> 00:15:00,805
Speaker 2: had time or when they felt like it. So I

279
00:15:00,845 --> 00:15:03,285
Speaker 2: would be blindfolded as well when I was taken to

280
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Speaker 2: the bathroom, so that I wouldn't see the hallways or

281
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Speaker 2: the other rooms.

282
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Speaker 3: In the facility.

283
00:15:08,845 --> 00:15:10,525
Speaker 2: But that did you know, after a while I had

284
00:15:10,565 --> 00:15:14,045
Speaker 2: seen everything. But for that first month, I was very

285
00:15:14,165 --> 00:15:17,525
Speaker 2: heavily blindfolded and escorted by the arm to the toilet

286
00:15:17,645 --> 00:15:20,605
Speaker 2: and given one square of toilet paper. And if I

287
00:15:20,645 --> 00:15:22,485
Speaker 2: spent more than sort of thirty seconds in there, they'd

288
00:15:22,525 --> 00:15:24,445
Speaker 2: bang on the door and yell at me. And you know,

289
00:15:24,685 --> 00:15:26,965
Speaker 2: going to the toilet was a fraud experience in and

290
00:15:26,965 --> 00:15:27,525
Speaker 2: of itself.

291
00:15:27,965 --> 00:15:29,285
Speaker 1: What about getting a period?

292
00:15:30,005 --> 00:15:33,245
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Miah, this was a nightmare, Kylie.

293
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Speaker 1: I'm just like, I know, these are such like basic questions,

294
00:15:36,645 --> 00:15:40,285
Speaker 1: but of course that's it's like your basic dignity was

295
00:15:40,325 --> 00:15:42,925
Speaker 1: taken away. How did you cope with these very basic

296
00:15:43,045 --> 00:15:44,245
Speaker 1: needs that you would have had.

297
00:15:44,445 --> 00:15:47,405
Speaker 2: Honestly, every female prisoner in there, you can have an

298
00:15:47,445 --> 00:15:50,125
Speaker 2: hour's long discussion about these things with them. I've heard

299
00:15:50,245 --> 00:15:55,525
Speaker 2: countless horror stories, like principally, Iran doesn't believe in tampons.

300
00:15:56,045 --> 00:15:58,405
Speaker 2: It's very difficult to get tampons in Iran because they

301
00:15:58,445 --> 00:16:02,085
Speaker 2: believe that it takes a woman's virginity. There's all these

302
00:16:02,125 --> 00:16:06,805
Speaker 2: superstitions about tampons. So the prison guards basically banned tampons

303
00:16:06,885 --> 00:16:10,525
Speaker 2: because they said only an immoral woman would.

304
00:16:10,325 --> 00:16:11,045
Speaker 3: Use such a thing.

305
00:16:11,805 --> 00:16:15,005
Speaker 2: And it's actually a very pervasive idea even, you know,

306
00:16:15,125 --> 00:16:18,085
Speaker 2: with other prisoners I discussed and many of them, especially

307
00:16:18,205 --> 00:16:21,405
Speaker 2: older ones or ones who hadn't traveled abroad, believed that,

308
00:16:22,005 --> 00:16:25,485
Speaker 2: you know, no man would want to marry you if

309
00:16:25,485 --> 00:16:28,765
Speaker 2: you were a single woman, if you'd used tampons for

310
00:16:28,885 --> 00:16:29,445
Speaker 2: your period.

311
00:16:30,005 --> 00:16:32,965
Speaker 3: So they used these terrible, huge.

312
00:16:32,725 --> 00:16:36,085
Speaker 2: Fat nappy pads that looked like they belonged like in

313
00:16:36,125 --> 00:16:38,725
Speaker 2: continents pads for elderly people. This was all we were

314
00:16:38,725 --> 00:16:42,965
Speaker 2: given for our periods, and actually I had many fights

315
00:16:42,965 --> 00:16:45,245
Speaker 2: over it because they would give me one at a time.

316
00:16:45,645 --> 00:16:46,965
Speaker 3: You know, they wouldn't give me a packet.

317
00:16:47,165 --> 00:16:50,245
Speaker 2: They'd come and doll out one every time I and

318
00:16:50,325 --> 00:16:52,725
Speaker 2: even communicating that that's what I needed when I didn't

319
00:16:52,725 --> 00:16:55,725
Speaker 2: speak for you know, it was very difficult, it was,

320
00:16:56,725 --> 00:16:59,445
Speaker 2: and it was a very unhygienic place. The toilets were

321
00:16:59,565 --> 00:17:04,845
Speaker 2: very very dirty. There was no toilet paper to clean yourself.

322
00:17:04,885 --> 00:17:07,525
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to shower at the beginning except once

323
00:17:07,565 --> 00:17:10,765
Speaker 2: every three days, So cleaning yourself it was Yeah, it

324
00:17:10,805 --> 00:17:12,165
Speaker 2: was a nightmare. I mean, I'm not going to go

325
00:17:12,165 --> 00:17:18,165
Speaker 2: into the gritty details, but it just these feminine hygiene.

326
00:17:17,605 --> 00:17:21,485
Speaker 3: Issues were huge until.

327
00:17:21,325 --> 00:17:24,285
Speaker 2: It got marginally better when I was allowed to make

328
00:17:24,405 --> 00:17:27,525
Speaker 2: certain grocery purchases once a month on a shopping list.

329
00:17:27,765 --> 00:17:31,005
Speaker 2: Maybe after six months or so or seven months of

330
00:17:31,005 --> 00:17:33,645
Speaker 2: my incarceration, the embassy dropped some cash off at the

331
00:17:33,685 --> 00:17:36,485
Speaker 2: prison and I was able to make a shopping list

332
00:17:36,525 --> 00:17:39,805
Speaker 2: that someone would go and purchase and deliver to the prison,

333
00:17:40,325 --> 00:17:42,965
Speaker 2: one of the IGC guys, not the embassy, And I

334
00:17:43,085 --> 00:17:46,645
Speaker 2: put on pads, like a Western brand of pads, and

335
00:17:46,845 --> 00:17:48,805
Speaker 2: a few times that got delivered to me, and that

336
00:17:48,805 --> 00:17:52,565
Speaker 2: that was much better. But yeah, we were banned from

337
00:17:52,685 --> 00:17:56,205
Speaker 2: any cleaning products. So even with that money, we weren't

338
00:17:56,205 --> 00:18:00,445
Speaker 2: able to buy bleach or bathroom spray or disinfectant because

339
00:18:00,445 --> 00:18:02,445
Speaker 2: they said, oh, if you'd buy that, you'll drink it

340
00:18:02,485 --> 00:18:05,485
Speaker 2: and kill yourself and so. And I used to fight

341
00:18:05,525 --> 00:18:07,645
Speaker 2: them and say, well, you come and put it in there,

342
00:18:07,685 --> 00:18:10,125
Speaker 2: you sprayed around in them, take it away and I

343
00:18:10,125 --> 00:18:10,925
Speaker 2: won't touch it.

344
00:18:10,845 --> 00:18:12,965
Speaker 3: But just spray it so I can clean the toilet

345
00:18:13,085 --> 00:18:18,285
Speaker 3: or whatever. But you know, they refused, So this was

346
00:18:18,365 --> 00:18:19,045
Speaker 3: really difficult.

347
00:18:19,125 --> 00:18:23,125
Speaker 2: It was dealing with the sanitary situation, especially, Yeah, when

348
00:18:23,125 --> 00:18:23,605
Speaker 2: you had your.

349
00:18:23,525 --> 00:18:28,285
Speaker 1: Period, when you were in solitary confinement and there were

350
00:18:28,325 --> 00:18:32,485
Speaker 1: just four walls, what did you literally do every day?

351
00:18:33,245 --> 00:18:34,325
Speaker 3: So a lot of the.

352
00:18:34,285 --> 00:18:37,725
Speaker 2: Days I was taken to interrogation and I actually wanted

353
00:18:37,765 --> 00:18:41,685
Speaker 2: to go because even though that was obviously very unpleasant

354
00:18:42,605 --> 00:18:46,525
Speaker 2: and a very hostile atmosphere normally, and I felt constantly

355
00:18:46,565 --> 00:18:49,365
Speaker 2: under siege and under attack there in that interrogation room,

356
00:18:49,765 --> 00:18:52,005
Speaker 2: it was still better than being left alone inside my

357
00:18:52,005 --> 00:18:53,965
Speaker 2: own head for hours and hours in that room, in

358
00:18:54,005 --> 00:18:58,725
Speaker 2: that solid confinement cell. And toward the end of my interrogations,

359
00:18:58,765 --> 00:19:02,085
Speaker 2: they came less and less frequently, and every weekend there'd

360
00:19:02,165 --> 00:19:03,925
Speaker 2: be two or three days where I would be just

361
00:19:04,045 --> 00:19:06,085
Speaker 2: on my own and you wouldn't know when they're coming,

362
00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:08,525
Speaker 2: so you'd be anticipating that the interrogators might come for

363
00:19:08,605 --> 00:19:11,445
Speaker 2: you every day, and some days they did, some days

364
00:19:11,485 --> 00:19:11,925
Speaker 2: they didn't.

365
00:19:12,445 --> 00:19:13,485
Speaker 3: So when I was left on.

366
00:19:13,405 --> 00:19:16,765
Speaker 2: My own for those days on end where I didn't

367
00:19:16,805 --> 00:19:20,805
Speaker 2: go anywhere, it was basically like psychological torture, you know,

368
00:19:21,125 --> 00:19:23,365
Speaker 2: I was The first week was the worst until I

369
00:19:23,485 --> 00:19:25,685
Speaker 2: developed psychological coping mechanisms.

370
00:19:26,085 --> 00:19:27,725
Speaker 3: But I was bouncing off the walls.

371
00:19:27,765 --> 00:19:30,485
Speaker 2: My brain was thinking at a million miles an hour

372
00:19:30,805 --> 00:19:34,765
Speaker 2: over all sorts of subjects. Rapped by guilt, rapped by regret.

373
00:19:34,925 --> 00:19:36,645
Speaker 2: I should have done this differently, I should have done

374
00:19:36,685 --> 00:19:41,445
Speaker 2: that differently. Fear about the future, anxiety, worry, it was

375
00:19:41,525 --> 00:19:44,405
Speaker 2: all rolling through my brain at an intense speed. And

376
00:19:45,245 --> 00:19:48,965
Speaker 2: you know, I would try and play games with myself.

377
00:19:49,525 --> 00:19:53,045
Speaker 2: I would try and memorize or recite things that I

378
00:19:53,085 --> 00:19:56,285
Speaker 2: thought I could memorize, try to remember the lyrics of songs,

379
00:19:56,885 --> 00:20:01,245
Speaker 2: try to remember my times tables. But you know, it

380
00:20:01,285 --> 00:20:03,885
Speaker 2: was really really hard, and a lot of my memories

381
00:20:04,085 --> 00:20:07,005
Speaker 2: sort of blanked out for like some of that period,

382
00:20:07,205 --> 00:20:10,765
Speaker 2: I think from the trauma of all because being left

383
00:20:10,765 --> 00:20:14,485
Speaker 2: alone inside your own head with zero stimulation whatsoever and.

384
00:20:14,405 --> 00:20:18,565
Speaker 3: No natural light, no control.

385
00:20:18,725 --> 00:20:21,085
Speaker 2: I didn't even have control over my own toothbrush. I

386
00:20:21,125 --> 00:20:22,965
Speaker 2: didn't even have control over whether I could take a

387
00:20:23,045 --> 00:20:24,925
Speaker 2: shower or go to the toilet. I had control over

388
00:20:25,005 --> 00:20:29,165
Speaker 2: nothing whatsoever. It's designed to break you, and it really

389
00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:32,445
Speaker 2: is very effective. It really really does make you suffer

390
00:20:32,605 --> 00:20:33,165
Speaker 2: so much.

391
00:20:33,805 --> 00:20:37,805
Speaker 1: You mentioned psychological coping mechanisms that you developed.

392
00:20:37,805 --> 00:20:42,925
Speaker 2: What were they somehow my brain managed to slow itself down,

393
00:20:44,165 --> 00:20:47,765
Speaker 2: not for the first couple of weeks, but over time, slowly.

394
00:20:47,925 --> 00:20:51,365
Speaker 2: After about the two week mark, I kind of started

395
00:20:51,365 --> 00:20:54,965
Speaker 2: to inhabit this like send you asleep semi awake state,

396
00:20:55,725 --> 00:21:00,485
Speaker 2: not really meditation. But it wasn't a deliberate thing I

397
00:21:00,525 --> 00:21:03,165
Speaker 2: was trying to do, Like I'm very bad at meditation,

398
00:21:03,245 --> 00:21:06,645
Speaker 2: but a few times I tried to meditate, and you know,

399
00:21:06,685 --> 00:21:08,125
Speaker 2: I just couldn't turn off my brain.

400
00:21:08,245 --> 00:21:09,925
Speaker 3: But after about.

401
00:21:09,765 --> 00:21:13,125
Speaker 2: Two weeks, I would lie down on the floor because

402
00:21:13,125 --> 00:21:15,525
Speaker 2: there were no beds or mattresses, with that kind of

403
00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:17,805
Speaker 2: an itchy blanket over my head to block out the light.

404
00:21:18,525 --> 00:21:21,005
Speaker 3: And I wasn't tired enough to sleep, but I would just.

405
00:21:20,965 --> 00:21:25,285
Speaker 2: Close my eyes and my memories would become very vivid,

406
00:21:25,925 --> 00:21:29,285
Speaker 2: and especially my long term memories, so my short term

407
00:21:29,285 --> 00:21:34,405
Speaker 2: memory completely gone. All prisoners say this that solitary confinement

408
00:21:34,525 --> 00:21:36,965
Speaker 2: kind of after a while induces a sort of amnesia

409
00:21:37,085 --> 00:21:40,525
Speaker 2: or Alzheimer's in your short term memory. You know, if

410
00:21:40,565 --> 00:21:43,085
Speaker 2: you had to asked me, what's what's on my Spotify

411
00:21:43,125 --> 00:21:44,765
Speaker 2: play list, I wouldn't have been able to tell you,

412
00:21:44,765 --> 00:21:46,805
Speaker 2: you know, or what movies did I see before I

413
00:21:46,845 --> 00:21:49,765
Speaker 2: went to Iran. But I could suddenly like draw on

414
00:21:49,805 --> 00:21:54,325
Speaker 2: these ultra vivid memories of my childhood, of events that

415
00:21:54,365 --> 00:21:56,525
Speaker 2: I'd long forgotten or what I'd forgotten in my brain,

416
00:21:56,605 --> 00:21:58,965
Speaker 2: and then kind of relive them and go through them

417
00:21:59,125 --> 00:22:03,085
Speaker 2: and inhabit that strange space of kind of half a sleep,

418
00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:06,445
Speaker 2: half away, half in my memories, trying to forget the present,

419
00:22:06,485 --> 00:22:08,725
Speaker 2: forget the future, and just sort of live in the past.

420
00:22:09,485 --> 00:22:10,645
Speaker 3: And I don't really know.

421
00:22:10,605 --> 00:22:12,685
Speaker 2: What that's called, or whether that's a thing or it

422
00:22:12,845 --> 00:22:15,245
Speaker 2: just happened to me, But that's kind of how I,

423
00:22:15,405 --> 00:22:18,045
Speaker 2: in a way coped. I just slowed my brain down

424
00:22:18,325 --> 00:22:19,605
Speaker 2: and lived in the past.

425
00:22:20,245 --> 00:22:23,805
Speaker 1: There were almost two parallel tracks. You were living your

426
00:22:23,845 --> 00:22:29,205
Speaker 1: hell in an Ieranian jail, and your family, your husband,

427
00:22:29,245 --> 00:22:33,445
Speaker 1: your parents were like what did they think were going on?

428
00:22:33,485 --> 00:22:34,285
Speaker 1: What were they doing?

429
00:22:34,605 --> 00:22:36,605
Speaker 3: At the beginning, they had very little information.

430
00:22:37,125 --> 00:22:39,125
Speaker 2: The government didn't really tell them much. I don't think

431
00:22:39,125 --> 00:22:41,885
Speaker 2: the government really knew what was going on either. I

432
00:22:42,045 --> 00:22:44,165
Speaker 2: was able to contact them on a kind of an

433
00:22:44,165 --> 00:22:49,005
Speaker 2: ad hoc basis via WhatsApp from the interrogations, so you know,

434
00:22:49,165 --> 00:22:51,405
Speaker 2: when I got arrested the first time at the airport

435
00:22:51,445 --> 00:22:54,125
Speaker 2: that night, they let me text my family on WhatsApp

436
00:22:54,165 --> 00:22:57,605
Speaker 2: and say, you know, they made me write some silly

437
00:22:57,645 --> 00:23:00,885
Speaker 2: excuse like I've decided to extend my trip in Irun

438
00:23:01,165 --> 00:23:03,805
Speaker 2: to do more research or something, when I'd already told

439
00:23:03,845 --> 00:23:05,445
Speaker 2: them I checked in for my flight and I was

440
00:23:05,445 --> 00:23:07,085
Speaker 2: at the airport, so there's no way they would have

441
00:23:07,085 --> 00:23:10,685
Speaker 2: believed that. But I guess to show them that I'm

442
00:23:10,685 --> 00:23:13,405
Speaker 2: okay and I'm alive and some horrible accident hasn't happened.

443
00:23:14,045 --> 00:23:18,125
Speaker 2: So periodically they were allowing me to, I guess, show

444
00:23:18,205 --> 00:23:20,725
Speaker 2: proof of life or message my parents or whatever and

445
00:23:20,765 --> 00:23:23,685
Speaker 2: tell them that I'm still around. I wasn't allowed to

446
00:23:23,725 --> 00:23:26,205
Speaker 2: say I was in prison, but I'm sure they would

447
00:23:26,245 --> 00:23:28,725
Speaker 2: have worked that out at some point, and I imagine

448
00:23:28,725 --> 00:23:30,765
Speaker 2: the government would have worked it out too, and perhaps

449
00:23:30,805 --> 00:23:34,085
Speaker 2: have had have told them. I'm not sure, but everybody

450
00:23:34,125 --> 00:23:36,605
Speaker 2: knew very little. I was allowed to say very little,

451
00:23:36,765 --> 00:23:41,165
Speaker 2: and my contact with them was just haphazard and to

452
00:23:41,205 --> 00:23:42,565
Speaker 2: the whims of the interrogators.

453
00:23:42,645 --> 00:23:46,565
Speaker 1: Essentially, you were held at Evan in the notorious to

454
00:23:46,845 --> 00:23:53,805
Speaker 1: A unit for twenty three months, almost two years. How

455
00:23:53,845 --> 00:23:57,285
Speaker 1: did your mental state change over that time.

456
00:23:58,525 --> 00:23:59,845
Speaker 3: I feel like.

457
00:24:01,325 --> 00:24:07,205
Speaker 2: I actually became stronger as time went on. I think

458
00:24:07,285 --> 00:24:11,605
Speaker 2: you have to first perceive the permates of your surroundings.

459
00:24:11,805 --> 00:24:13,685
Speaker 3: Where you are, why you're there.

460
00:24:13,605 --> 00:24:17,605
Speaker 2: Who's captured you, what's going on, what possibly would happen

461
00:24:17,645 --> 00:24:20,325
Speaker 2: to you, for example, going to court and getting sentenced

462
00:24:20,365 --> 00:24:23,605
Speaker 2: to prison, something like that, Whether there could be a

463
00:24:23,605 --> 00:24:26,125
Speaker 2: diplomatic deal on the offering this kind of thing. Once

464
00:24:26,165 --> 00:24:31,205
Speaker 2: I perceived the boundaries of what's possible and what's not possible,

465
00:24:31,445 --> 00:24:33,885
Speaker 2: where I am and y and who captured me, I

466
00:24:33,885 --> 00:24:36,565
Speaker 2: think I started to understand the rules of the game

467
00:24:36,565 --> 00:24:38,685
Speaker 2: a little bit better, and I drew strength from that.

468
00:24:39,285 --> 00:24:43,885
Speaker 2: I also educated myself through making contact with other prisoners.

469
00:24:44,045 --> 00:24:45,845
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about how you made

470
00:24:45,885 --> 00:24:47,565
Speaker 1: contact with other prisoners.

471
00:24:48,045 --> 00:24:51,045
Speaker 3: So they reached out to me. They heard I was there,

472
00:24:51,165 --> 00:24:51,725
Speaker 3: I heard my.

473
00:24:51,725 --> 00:24:54,365
Speaker 2: Voice speaking English to the guards, and the guards not

474
00:24:54,445 --> 00:24:57,565
Speaker 2: understanding me and speaking back in Persian. I'd scratched some

475
00:24:57,565 --> 00:25:00,725
Speaker 2: stuff in English on the wall of the outdoor exercise area,

476
00:25:01,365 --> 00:25:05,205
Speaker 2: and they occasionally scratched a response a word or two

477
00:25:05,285 --> 00:25:09,245
Speaker 2: back to me. And then I received in the ut

478
00:25:09,445 --> 00:25:12,405
Speaker 2: exercise area some a small bag of food of nuts

479
00:25:12,485 --> 00:25:16,205
Speaker 2: and fruits and a small letter written on some toilet

480
00:25:16,245 --> 00:25:19,325
Speaker 2: paper with a piece of chocolate that they'd scratched onto

481
00:25:19,365 --> 00:25:23,085
Speaker 2: the toilet paper. And these were two girls in a

482
00:25:23,125 --> 00:25:25,485
Speaker 2: cell just opposite mine, actually, but there were two in

483
00:25:25,525 --> 00:25:28,205
Speaker 2: a cell, not one like me. And then I made

484
00:25:28,205 --> 00:25:31,765
Speaker 2: contact with their friends in a different cell down the hall.

485
00:25:32,005 --> 00:25:34,565
Speaker 2: There were three of them at the time, and they

486
00:25:34,605 --> 00:25:37,605
Speaker 2: all spoke English, and because I didn't speak fastly, they

487
00:25:37,605 --> 00:25:41,445
Speaker 2: were able to tell me in English who these people were,

488
00:25:41,445 --> 00:25:43,565
Speaker 2: what the rules were, what they could do to me,

489
00:25:43,605 --> 00:25:45,765
Speaker 2: and what they wouldn't do to me. That I should

490
00:25:45,805 --> 00:25:47,485
Speaker 2: have a hope that my government will get me out,

491
00:25:47,565 --> 00:25:50,845
Speaker 2: because often the Uranians take people hostage to make deals

492
00:25:50,845 --> 00:25:53,445
Speaker 2: and to get something in exchange. That I shouldn't make

493
00:25:53,445 --> 00:25:56,285
Speaker 2: a false confession. That I should stay true and just

494
00:25:56,645 --> 00:26:00,405
Speaker 2: tell the truth, and you know, not trust them because

495
00:26:00,445 --> 00:26:03,645
Speaker 2: they weren't trustworthy. They would play me in the end

496
00:26:03,725 --> 00:26:08,045
Speaker 2: if I trusted them. So I got to understand a

497
00:26:08,085 --> 00:26:10,685
Speaker 2: lot from these friends, and they really risked themselves to

498
00:26:10,725 --> 00:26:12,965
Speaker 2: reach out to me. It was really dangerous for them.

499
00:26:13,245 --> 00:26:15,205
Speaker 2: They didn't have to do that. They were really good

500
00:26:15,245 --> 00:26:17,045
Speaker 2: people that wanted to help me. They could hear that

501
00:26:17,125 --> 00:26:19,405
Speaker 2: I was in distress, they could hear I didn't understand

502
00:26:19,445 --> 00:26:22,365
Speaker 2: the language. And some of them really became my friends

503
00:26:22,405 --> 00:26:23,325
Speaker 2: and my sisters.

504
00:26:23,605 --> 00:26:27,045
Speaker 1: You went to incredible lengths to communicate with each other.

505
00:26:27,645 --> 00:26:29,845
Speaker 1: Can you describe some of the ways that you would

506
00:26:29,885 --> 00:26:30,165
Speaker 1: do that.

507
00:26:30,805 --> 00:26:34,445
Speaker 2: We had an air conditioning vent for a period of

508
00:26:34,485 --> 00:26:38,525
Speaker 2: several months that through this convoluted system of events that

509
00:26:38,565 --> 00:26:41,245
Speaker 2: we figured out one of the events we had maybe

510
00:26:41,285 --> 00:26:44,165
Speaker 2: four vents in each cell, won in the toilet or

511
00:26:44,245 --> 00:26:46,805
Speaker 2: three maybe, and we figured out one of our events

512
00:26:47,085 --> 00:26:50,845
Speaker 2: connected to one of their events. So and I had

513
00:26:50,845 --> 00:26:52,925
Speaker 2: to sort of climb the toilet cistern in order to

514
00:26:52,925 --> 00:26:55,445
Speaker 2: get my head up there and talk through the vent.

515
00:26:55,605 --> 00:26:59,245
Speaker 2: But at certain times, on certain guard shifts, we figured

516
00:26:59,245 --> 00:27:03,725
Speaker 2: out we could communicate through the events without it being discovered.

517
00:27:04,125 --> 00:27:05,245
Speaker 3: So every three.

518
00:27:05,125 --> 00:27:08,165
Speaker 2: Nights, on certain guard shifts, we would talk for maybe

519
00:27:08,245 --> 00:27:12,805
Speaker 2: ten minutes, myself and my friend Nilu Faire and Horda

520
00:27:13,005 --> 00:27:15,885
Speaker 2: who were in a cell next to mine. And this

521
00:27:15,965 --> 00:27:18,565
Speaker 2: is when you know, we exchanged notes too, but this

522
00:27:18,765 --> 00:27:21,285
Speaker 2: was where we could, you know, exchange the most information.

523
00:27:22,445 --> 00:27:25,045
Speaker 2: We were moved cells many times and that vent situation

524
00:27:25,125 --> 00:27:29,405
Speaker 2: didn't last, but we desired We devised several different ways

525
00:27:29,405 --> 00:27:32,645
Speaker 2: of passing notes, and the most successful way, which I

526
00:27:32,685 --> 00:27:35,445
Speaker 2: actually came up with was we got a pair of pants,

527
00:27:35,965 --> 00:27:39,405
Speaker 2: prison uniform pants that were spare, you know, because prisoners

528
00:27:39,405 --> 00:27:41,765
Speaker 2: would come in and then go out, and you wash

529
00:27:41,805 --> 00:27:43,365
Speaker 2: your clothes and you put them on a rack in

530
00:27:43,405 --> 00:27:46,605
Speaker 2: the communal laundry. So when we discovered there was a

531
00:27:46,605 --> 00:27:49,125
Speaker 2: spare pair of pants on the rack, I stole them,

532
00:27:49,765 --> 00:27:52,645
Speaker 2: pretending they were mine, and managed to open the seam

533
00:27:53,285 --> 00:27:57,405
Speaker 2: of the bottom of the trouser maybe one or half

534
00:27:57,405 --> 00:28:00,485
Speaker 2: a centimeter and roll up a very small note in

535
00:28:00,525 --> 00:28:03,525
Speaker 2: a long tube and insert it into that scene. And

536
00:28:03,565 --> 00:28:07,205
Speaker 2: then we've marked the pants with a small asterisk actually

537
00:28:07,205 --> 00:28:10,205
Speaker 2: on the waistband to know that these were the note pants,

538
00:28:10,845 --> 00:28:14,685
Speaker 2: and I would wash them alongside my own uniform, trying

539
00:28:14,725 --> 00:28:17,005
Speaker 2: to keep the note as dry as possible, and hang

540
00:28:17,045 --> 00:28:19,045
Speaker 2: them up on the rack in a certain part of

541
00:28:19,085 --> 00:28:21,965
Speaker 2: the rack is an indication that those pants were a

542
00:28:22,005 --> 00:28:25,245
Speaker 2: delivery of a note. And then the other cell would

543
00:28:25,285 --> 00:28:28,005
Speaker 2: take them, pretending that's their washing that they're taking from

544
00:28:28,005 --> 00:28:30,285
Speaker 2: the rack, and remove it back to their cell and

545
00:28:30,325 --> 00:28:33,005
Speaker 2: take the note out and read it. And it was

546
00:28:33,045 --> 00:28:36,485
Speaker 2: a very complex operation to write the notes in secret

547
00:28:36,525 --> 00:28:38,925
Speaker 2: away from the camera as well and get them into

548
00:28:38,965 --> 00:28:42,005
Speaker 2: the pants. But it was actually never discovered, unlike several

549
00:28:42,005 --> 00:28:44,125
Speaker 2: other methods we had, we were never caught with that one,

550
00:28:44,605 --> 00:28:46,485
Speaker 2: and we kept it up for months and months.

551
00:28:46,685 --> 00:28:50,965
Speaker 1: Some of the things that were considered contraband were pen

552
00:28:51,045 --> 00:28:55,125
Speaker 1: and paper. I mean that was considered an absolute luxury.

553
00:28:55,205 --> 00:28:58,645
Speaker 1: But occasionally you got hold of some, didn't you, Like,

554
00:28:58,925 --> 00:29:00,405
Speaker 1: what did you write these notes with?

555
00:29:01,525 --> 00:29:05,965
Speaker 2: So we all had secret pens for a time. One

556
00:29:06,005 --> 00:29:09,325
Speaker 2: of my friends, Elena, was a master at stealing pains,

557
00:29:09,365 --> 00:29:11,765
Speaker 2: and she even stole a pen from the judge and

558
00:29:11,805 --> 00:29:13,965
Speaker 2: it had his name on the side, and it became

559
00:29:14,085 --> 00:29:17,285
Speaker 2: like a trophy for us, like, how on earth when

560
00:29:17,325 --> 00:29:19,885
Speaker 2: you recort you go, you put on trial, You've managed

561
00:29:19,925 --> 00:29:23,685
Speaker 2: to steal a pen from the judge. And so you know,

562
00:29:23,845 --> 00:29:28,085
Speaker 2: she would nick them from from various judiciary meetings, from

563
00:29:28,125 --> 00:29:31,525
Speaker 2: the interrogation one time, even find them from the If

564
00:29:31,525 --> 00:29:33,685
Speaker 2: the guards had ever left a pen lying around in

565
00:29:33,725 --> 00:29:36,645
Speaker 2: their area, she would always cause a distraction and managed

566
00:29:36,885 --> 00:29:39,525
Speaker 2: to steal it. So often the pens would be discovered

567
00:29:39,525 --> 00:29:43,005
Speaker 2: and confiscated from us. But there was sort of a

568
00:29:43,645 --> 00:29:49,525
Speaker 2: network of secret pens going around. I tricked the guards

569
00:29:49,605 --> 00:29:52,325
Speaker 2: just by lock into a pen I had been given

570
00:29:52,365 --> 00:29:55,765
Speaker 2: to answer some interrogation questions with I managed to fool

571
00:29:55,765 --> 00:29:58,245
Speaker 2: the guards into thinking I'd given back when I hadn't.

572
00:29:58,845 --> 00:30:01,525
Speaker 2: So I would keep that pen in a number of locations,

573
00:30:01,565 --> 00:30:06,445
Speaker 2: initially in my underwear and then inside a pipe that

574
00:30:06,605 --> 00:30:09,845
Speaker 2: was linked to the toilet plumbing in my cell and

575
00:30:10,445 --> 00:30:12,925
Speaker 2: would write the notes to my friends on the toilet,

576
00:30:13,165 --> 00:30:16,445
Speaker 2: squatting down where it was a black spot from the camera,

577
00:30:16,925 --> 00:30:22,165
Speaker 2: and we would write on scraps of packaging, scraps of cardboard,

578
00:30:22,645 --> 00:30:25,925
Speaker 2: you know, the cardboard of a toilet paper roll, or

579
00:30:26,845 --> 00:30:29,725
Speaker 2: even toilet paper itself if we didn't have anything else.

580
00:30:30,045 --> 00:30:34,285
Speaker 2: So we became quite good at stealing and hiding pens.

581
00:30:34,645 --> 00:30:36,045
Speaker 3: And even if.

582
00:30:35,885 --> 00:30:39,285
Speaker 2: You took the actual thin vessel of the ink out

583
00:30:39,285 --> 00:30:41,685
Speaker 2: of the plastic pen itself, then it became really really

584
00:30:41,725 --> 00:30:44,285
Speaker 2: small and thin, and that could be inserted into the

585
00:30:44,965 --> 00:30:47,405
Speaker 2: hem of a piece of clothing article of clothing and

586
00:30:47,445 --> 00:30:50,525
Speaker 2: not be discovered as well. So it was harder to

587
00:30:50,525 --> 00:30:52,845
Speaker 2: write with because it was bendy, but you could do that.

588
00:30:53,205 --> 00:30:55,285
Speaker 2: I did that a few times to avoid detection.

589
00:30:59,245 --> 00:31:01,805
Speaker 1: I Mayor Friedman and you're listening to No Filter with

590
00:31:01,925 --> 00:31:12,365
Speaker 1: Kylie Moore Gilbert. You mentioned that you were moved from

591
00:31:12,405 --> 00:31:14,965
Speaker 1: cell to cell quite a lot, so after that initial

592
00:31:15,565 --> 00:31:19,685
Speaker 1: period of more than a month in that tiny two

593
00:31:19,725 --> 00:31:26,005
Speaker 1: by two windowless cell. But it was interesting to read

594
00:31:26,045 --> 00:31:29,125
Speaker 1: that every time you were moved. For someone who's not

595
00:31:29,165 --> 00:31:31,125
Speaker 1: experienced it, I would have thought, oh, you would have

596
00:31:31,165 --> 00:31:34,725
Speaker 1: been excited for a change of scene, but you always

597
00:31:34,725 --> 00:31:38,325
Speaker 1: felt very, very anxious when you were moved. Can you

598
00:31:38,325 --> 00:31:39,405
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that.

599
00:31:40,005 --> 00:31:45,445
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think because psychologically you become dependent on that

600
00:31:45,565 --> 00:31:50,445
Speaker 2: space very quickly. It becomes a comfort. Almost The routine

601
00:31:50,445 --> 00:31:53,885
Speaker 2: of prison is comforting to you. Anything outside of the

602
00:31:53,965 --> 00:31:55,165
Speaker 2: routine is scary.

603
00:31:56,045 --> 00:31:58,205
Speaker 3: You get into that psychological.

604
00:31:57,565 --> 00:32:00,245
Speaker 2: Space where by the end of my four weeks in

605
00:32:00,245 --> 00:32:04,005
Speaker 2: that extreme solitary confinement box, I had figured out how

606
00:32:04,005 --> 00:32:09,205
Speaker 2: to manage my brain, and anything outside the routine just terrified.

607
00:32:09,525 --> 00:32:11,525
Speaker 2: So when I was removed from that cell and brought

608
00:32:11,525 --> 00:32:15,205
Speaker 2: into a slightly larger one with a TV TV locked

609
00:32:15,205 --> 00:32:17,725
Speaker 2: on one channel at one high volume, and couldn't turn

610
00:32:17,725 --> 00:32:20,365
Speaker 2: it off and didn't understand the language, so it actually

611
00:32:20,405 --> 00:32:23,045
Speaker 2: was worse to have that TV than without. But I

612
00:32:23,045 --> 00:32:24,805
Speaker 2: guess it was a step up, you know, it was

613
00:32:24,845 --> 00:32:28,845
Speaker 2: some sort of reward in a way. I don't know,

614
00:32:28,965 --> 00:32:31,565
Speaker 2: but I just freaked out. I didn't want to go there.

615
00:32:31,605 --> 00:32:34,405
Speaker 2: I actually got myself transferred back to my old solitary

616
00:32:34,445 --> 00:32:37,165
Speaker 2: self for one night before agreeing to move. And it

617
00:32:37,205 --> 00:32:40,165
Speaker 2: was the suddenness and the unexpectedness of it too. They

618
00:32:40,245 --> 00:32:42,165
Speaker 2: just rocked up one day and said pack your stuff

619
00:32:42,365 --> 00:32:44,485
Speaker 2: or pack up, pack up. Your blankets were moving in there,

620
00:32:44,965 --> 00:32:49,365
Speaker 2: and I just yeah, I couldn't deal with it psychologically

621
00:32:49,405 --> 00:32:53,085
Speaker 2: because you've become really dependent on that space and on routine.

622
00:32:53,525 --> 00:32:56,445
Speaker 1: You just slept on the floor, like was it just

623
00:32:57,005 --> 00:33:00,805
Speaker 1: a hard floor with a scratchy blanket? Like no pillow,

624
00:33:00,965 --> 00:33:02,405
Speaker 1: no mattress.

625
00:33:03,085 --> 00:33:03,685
Speaker 3: Yep, there was.

626
00:33:03,805 --> 00:33:07,725
Speaker 2: I didn't sleep on a mattress for the entire two

627
00:33:07,805 --> 00:33:11,285
Speaker 2: years and three months in Iran. I didn't have a pillow.

628
00:33:11,405 --> 00:33:13,965
Speaker 1: What are they dirty? Your back kylie? Like are you

629
00:33:14,005 --> 00:33:14,725
Speaker 1: in agony?

630
00:33:14,925 --> 00:33:17,165
Speaker 2: My back was okay, but my neck because of the

631
00:33:17,285 --> 00:33:20,525
Speaker 2: lack of a pillow, I'd put like I folded up

632
00:33:20,525 --> 00:33:21,125
Speaker 2: a blanket and.

633
00:33:21,045 --> 00:33:25,005
Speaker 3: Put it under my head, but it was itchy, bulky, hard.

634
00:33:25,845 --> 00:33:27,485
Speaker 2: It felt like I had a brick under my head,

635
00:33:27,525 --> 00:33:29,525
Speaker 2: you know it really mind, I had a lot of

636
00:33:29,565 --> 00:33:34,445
Speaker 2: neck pain and neck problems. Other prisoners, though I saw

637
00:33:34,525 --> 00:33:37,325
Speaker 2: plenty of older women in their sixties, for example, who

638
00:33:37,405 --> 00:33:40,205
Speaker 2: already had bad backs before they came in, or who

639
00:33:40,205 --> 00:33:44,165
Speaker 2: were overweight or had various health problems, and just sleeping

640
00:33:44,205 --> 00:33:47,285
Speaker 2: on the floor like that was agony for them, and

641
00:33:47,325 --> 00:33:49,925
Speaker 2: they really couldn't do it. They were constantly whimpering and

642
00:33:49,965 --> 00:33:52,285
Speaker 2: in pain and suffering from it. And it's part of

643
00:33:52,325 --> 00:33:52,845
Speaker 2: the suffering.

644
00:33:52,885 --> 00:33:53,045
Speaker 1: You know.

645
00:33:53,085 --> 00:33:56,325
Speaker 2: They treat you like an animal, and it's deliberate. They

646
00:33:56,365 --> 00:34:00,285
Speaker 2: dehumanize you, and not giving you a proper bed or

647
00:34:00,325 --> 00:34:02,485
Speaker 2: a pillow or a sheet or a mattress is part

648
00:34:02,525 --> 00:34:05,485
Speaker 2: of that. Having everything be dirty and unclean is part

649
00:34:05,525 --> 00:34:07,565
Speaker 2: of that, you know. I was constantly one of my

650
00:34:07,645 --> 00:34:10,765
Speaker 2: pastimes was to pick other people's hairs out of my blankets.

651
00:34:10,885 --> 00:34:14,965
Speaker 2: And I would spend hours meticulously going over every inch

652
00:34:15,005 --> 00:34:18,285
Speaker 2: of my three blankets and pulling black curly hairs and

653
00:34:18,445 --> 00:34:22,325
Speaker 2: people's head hair and everything out and creating a big.

654
00:34:22,165 --> 00:34:24,485
Speaker 3: Ball of them on the floor, you know. And so

655
00:34:24,685 --> 00:34:25,765
Speaker 3: I think it was deliberate.

656
00:34:26,045 --> 00:34:28,045
Speaker 2: They didn't give us clean blankets, They didn't give us

657
00:34:28,405 --> 00:34:31,005
Speaker 2: betty because they wanted us to suffer. And all of

658
00:34:31,005 --> 00:34:35,285
Speaker 2: these small humiliations, all of them work together to break up.

659
00:34:35,405 --> 00:34:37,285
Speaker 2: Same with not being able to shower. There was no

660
00:34:37,965 --> 00:34:40,685
Speaker 2: logical reason why at the beginning I could only shower

661
00:34:40,765 --> 00:34:44,205
Speaker 2: every three days very quickly, because I just couldn't deal

662
00:34:44,205 --> 00:34:46,245
Speaker 2: with it and was having meltdowns over it. In the end,

663
00:34:46,285 --> 00:34:48,685
Speaker 2: they let me shower every day, but there was no

664
00:34:48,765 --> 00:34:51,485
Speaker 2: logical reason for it. It was just to make yourseffer,

665
00:34:52,165 --> 00:34:53,685
Speaker 2: to humanize you were.

666
00:34:53,645 --> 00:34:57,685
Speaker 1: Their little things that you did that were like privately

667
00:34:57,765 --> 00:35:00,365
Speaker 1: defiant to sort of maintain your dignity.

668
00:35:01,245 --> 00:35:05,965
Speaker 2: The first real active defiance I undertook was a hunger strike. Well,

669
00:35:06,005 --> 00:35:07,925
Speaker 2: I guess you could say it was contacting my friends

670
00:35:07,965 --> 00:35:10,325
Speaker 2: and other cells and still a pen and hiding it

671
00:35:10,365 --> 00:35:14,965
Speaker 2: and everything that was obviously defiant too. But I took

672
00:35:15,045 --> 00:35:17,965
Speaker 2: the step of going on hunger strike after about four

673
00:35:18,005 --> 00:35:21,965
Speaker 2: months of my incarceration, and actually it worked and I

674
00:35:22,005 --> 00:35:26,605
Speaker 2: had my demands fulfilled, and I underwent maybe seven hunger

675
00:35:26,605 --> 00:35:30,205
Speaker 2: strikes I think, over the time of my incarceration, and

676
00:35:30,725 --> 00:35:33,445
Speaker 2: that actually felt good because you felt like you were

677
00:35:33,525 --> 00:35:35,765
Speaker 2: actually doing something. It was one of the only things

678
00:35:35,765 --> 00:35:38,725
Speaker 2: you could control was whether you ate or not. They

679
00:35:38,765 --> 00:35:41,445
Speaker 2: couldn't really force you to eat unless they took you

680
00:35:41,485 --> 00:35:43,285
Speaker 2: to hospital and force fed you. But they never did

681
00:35:43,365 --> 00:35:47,885
Speaker 2: that to me, so I felt some measure of control,

682
00:35:48,045 --> 00:35:50,845
Speaker 2: that I was clawing back some control, and I could

683
00:35:50,845 --> 00:35:53,525
Speaker 2: make demands and I had some agency and power in

684
00:35:53,605 --> 00:35:56,045
Speaker 2: doing that. So I think that was really the first

685
00:35:56,085 --> 00:36:00,205
Speaker 2: proper step of outward, obvious, overt defiance that I took.

686
00:36:00,565 --> 00:36:04,445
Speaker 2: But I, you know, I'd resisted a lot. I after

687
00:36:04,485 --> 00:36:07,925
Speaker 2: I knew that I was going to court and they

688
00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:11,125
Speaker 2: would convict me and give me a prison sentence, because

689
00:36:11,125 --> 00:36:13,485
Speaker 2: it was obvious it was just a kangaroocord. It was

690
00:36:13,525 --> 00:36:16,685
Speaker 2: totally corrupt and a total sham, and that was clear

691
00:36:16,725 --> 00:36:18,445
Speaker 2: to me from the beginning, and I'd.

692
00:36:18,285 --> 00:36:19,725
Speaker 3: Heard stories of others as well.

693
00:36:19,725 --> 00:36:23,885
Speaker 2: By that point, I just realized, well, cooperating with them

694
00:36:23,885 --> 00:36:27,285
Speaker 2: hasn't served me well at all, and I haven't gained

695
00:36:27,405 --> 00:36:32,365
Speaker 2: anything by being nice and quiet and placating them, So

696
00:36:32,405 --> 00:36:34,845
Speaker 2: I may as well at least claw back some of

697
00:36:34,885 --> 00:36:39,965
Speaker 2: my dignity and resist. And I did, and sometimes I

698
00:36:40,005 --> 00:36:41,645
Speaker 2: shot myself in the foot, and other times I did

699
00:36:41,645 --> 00:36:44,565
Speaker 2: win concessions for myself, but it gave me a feeling

700
00:36:44,605 --> 00:36:46,485
Speaker 2: like I was doing something. At least, I wasn't just

701
00:36:46,485 --> 00:36:49,045
Speaker 2: this passive person sitting back and waiting for others to

702
00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:53,045
Speaker 2: rescue me. So it did actually play a big role

703
00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:56,845
Speaker 2: in my ability to survive Psychologically, I think the idea

704
00:36:56,885 --> 00:36:59,765
Speaker 2: that I was resisting and I was showing defiance, and

705
00:37:00,325 --> 00:37:03,485
Speaker 2: I was actually trying to influence my own fate.

706
00:37:03,885 --> 00:37:05,365
Speaker 1: What does a hunger strike feel like?

707
00:37:05,765 --> 00:37:07,325
Speaker 3: The beginning is the hardest.

708
00:37:07,725 --> 00:37:11,525
Speaker 2: That might be a little bit counterintuitive, but I found

709
00:37:11,565 --> 00:37:14,245
Speaker 2: the first two days the hardest. You do have really

710
00:37:14,285 --> 00:37:17,885
Speaker 2: strong pangs of hunger. If I was doing it with

711
00:37:18,045 --> 00:37:20,805
Speaker 2: other prisoners in my cell who weren't striking and were eating,

712
00:37:20,965 --> 00:37:24,125
Speaker 2: especially the hot food, you know, it was disgusting, but

713
00:37:24,365 --> 00:37:27,485
Speaker 2: they'd deliver like a stew or something with rice for lunch,

714
00:37:27,565 --> 00:37:30,645
Speaker 2: for example, and if the prisoners you know, opened that

715
00:37:30,845 --> 00:37:33,165
Speaker 2: or the smell would waft throughout the room, and you know,

716
00:37:33,205 --> 00:37:35,325
Speaker 2: I would often be lying prostrate because I didn't have

717
00:37:35,405 --> 00:37:38,045
Speaker 2: much energy, and you'd lose blood pressure very quickly, and

718
00:37:38,085 --> 00:37:41,045
Speaker 2: I'd be very light headed. But I'd just smell it,

719
00:37:41,085 --> 00:37:43,205
Speaker 2: and it was almost like the smell was more intense

720
00:37:43,325 --> 00:37:46,765
Speaker 2: because I was deprived of food myself, and it was

721
00:37:46,885 --> 00:37:49,125
Speaker 2: quite torturous for me to smell that, you know, that

722
00:37:49,205 --> 00:37:52,205
Speaker 2: disgusting stew that the other prisoners were getting. But then

723
00:37:52,245 --> 00:37:54,805
Speaker 2: after a few days, you kind of get used to

724
00:37:54,805 --> 00:38:00,205
Speaker 2: not eating. If you keep hydrating, you're generally okay for four, five,

725
00:38:00,285 --> 00:38:04,525
Speaker 2: six days, okay by you. I always had low blood

726
00:38:04,525 --> 00:38:07,085
Speaker 2: pressure even before I went to Iran, so my blood

727
00:38:07,085 --> 00:38:10,525
Speaker 2: pressure would just plummet and I couldn't move.

728
00:38:10,605 --> 00:38:11,565
Speaker 3: Even sitting up.

729
00:38:11,725 --> 00:38:14,205
Speaker 2: I would just see stars and my head would swim

730
00:38:14,485 --> 00:38:16,485
Speaker 2: and I would It would take me a really long

731
00:38:16,525 --> 00:38:19,485
Speaker 2: time to walk to the toilet. For example, I'd walk

732
00:38:19,565 --> 00:38:22,125
Speaker 2: like an elderly person, hand on the wall to stop

733
00:38:22,125 --> 00:38:26,525
Speaker 2: myself falling. Everything's very bright, seeing stars. It would be

734
00:38:26,565 --> 00:38:29,205
Speaker 2: a real mission to get out of bed and move anywhere.

735
00:38:29,525 --> 00:38:34,765
Speaker 2: After a few days, and I did a dryer strike

736
00:38:34,845 --> 00:38:38,045
Speaker 2: once where I didn't I refused water as well, and

737
00:38:38,085 --> 00:38:41,085
Speaker 2: that was the toughest because after I think I lasted

738
00:38:41,125 --> 00:38:44,085
Speaker 2: two days after even one day of not drinking or eating.

739
00:38:44,645 --> 00:38:46,245
Speaker 3: The headaches that you got.

740
00:38:46,045 --> 00:38:53,365
Speaker 2: From dehydration and everything was really painful. Everything was on fire.

741
00:38:54,005 --> 00:38:57,245
Speaker 2: Your body just was crying out for water. In particular,

742
00:38:57,525 --> 00:39:00,085
Speaker 2: I lasted forty eight hours without water, and then I

743
00:39:00,125 --> 00:39:03,125
Speaker 2: was hospitalized and put on a drip, so they put

744
00:39:03,125 --> 00:39:07,885
Speaker 2: the intravenous put you know, water backing hydrated me. So

745
00:39:08,725 --> 00:39:11,765
Speaker 2: that was the hard by far, The longest I'd lasted

746
00:39:11,765 --> 00:39:15,125
Speaker 2: on a wet hunger strike was about eight or nine days,

747
00:39:15,165 --> 00:39:18,085
Speaker 2: I think, But by then, I mean I was always hospitalized,

748
00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:21,125
Speaker 2: and then they're just drip feed vitamins and things into

749
00:39:21,125 --> 00:39:24,765
Speaker 2: me and I would perk up again. But you know,

750
00:39:25,005 --> 00:39:26,965
Speaker 2: it is really tough. But the first few days of

751
00:39:27,005 --> 00:39:29,525
Speaker 2: the hardest for sure, when your body still I guess

752
00:39:29,605 --> 00:39:33,205
Speaker 2: has some food in its digestive tract, so it's still

753
00:39:33,245 --> 00:39:36,405
Speaker 2: digesting and working and doing something, so it's calling out

754
00:39:36,445 --> 00:39:38,685
Speaker 2: for war, and you have those real pangs of hunger.

755
00:39:38,885 --> 00:39:41,925
Speaker 2: Then when everything empties out and you're just drinking water,

756
00:39:43,205 --> 00:39:46,285
Speaker 2: I think it's sort of the pangs and that the

757
00:39:46,325 --> 00:39:48,765
Speaker 2: pains lessen in a way and you get used to.

758
00:39:48,725 --> 00:39:49,285
Speaker 3: It in a way.

759
00:39:49,645 --> 00:39:53,045
Speaker 1: All through this time, from the minute that you were

760
00:39:53,805 --> 00:39:56,525
Speaker 1: detained at the airport, you were being interrogated, and the

761
00:39:56,605 --> 00:40:03,925
Speaker 1: lead interrogator was an Iranian revolutionary guard called Kazi. Your

762
00:40:03,965 --> 00:40:08,805
Speaker 1: relationship with him or his relationship with you was so

763
00:40:09,965 --> 00:40:16,445
Speaker 1: twisted and brutal and intense and complicated. Can you explain

764
00:40:16,645 --> 00:40:20,605
Speaker 1: how it was and how it developed over those years

765
00:40:20,605 --> 00:40:21,405
Speaker 1: that you were held.

766
00:40:23,085 --> 00:40:26,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is really hard for me to sort of

767
00:40:26,245 --> 00:40:31,565
Speaker 2: articulate because I don't properly even understand it myself. He

768
00:40:32,325 --> 00:40:34,765
Speaker 2: was sort of more senior than the interrogators in a way.

769
00:40:34,845 --> 00:40:39,085
Speaker 2: He was the head or responsible for judicial affairs or

770
00:40:39,165 --> 00:40:44,085
Speaker 2: legal affairs within the Revolutionary Guards intelligence wing intelligence organization,

771
00:40:44,805 --> 00:40:47,085
Speaker 2: and he was actually one of the main interlocutors of

772
00:40:47,125 --> 00:40:50,805
Speaker 2: the Australian government in negotiating my release. So he was

773
00:40:50,925 --> 00:40:54,725
Speaker 2: quite senior, and I think was linked through family ties

774
00:40:54,765 --> 00:40:58,485
Speaker 2: to the head of the iogc's intelligence unit, which gave

775
00:40:58,565 --> 00:41:02,165
Speaker 2: him because it's all very incestuous and mafia like in

776
00:41:02,165 --> 00:41:04,045
Speaker 2: a way, it's all one big family, and it gave

777
00:41:04,125 --> 00:41:06,765
Speaker 2: him the ability to act outside.

778
00:41:06,285 --> 00:41:07,845
Speaker 3: The rules of his own organization.

779
00:41:07,925 --> 00:41:08,365
Speaker 1: In a way.

780
00:41:08,645 --> 00:41:10,525
Speaker 2: He broke the rules many times. He kind of did

781
00:41:10,525 --> 00:41:14,805
Speaker 2: what he wanted and acted with impunity. So even you know,

782
00:41:14,845 --> 00:41:17,365
Speaker 2: from the first few nights in the hotel, he was

783
00:41:17,405 --> 00:41:19,085
Speaker 2: telling me things and doing things which.

784
00:41:18,885 --> 00:41:23,205
Speaker 3: Were outside of the rules. And he was there on

785
00:41:23,245 --> 00:41:24,565
Speaker 3: the night of my arrest.

786
00:41:25,805 --> 00:41:30,085
Speaker 2: He initially played the good cop role in the hotel,

787
00:41:30,125 --> 00:41:34,685
Speaker 2: for example, and sort of I think wanted to recruit me.

788
00:41:34,765 --> 00:41:37,165
Speaker 2: He was trying to recruit me for most of the

789
00:41:37,205 --> 00:41:38,925
Speaker 2: time I was there, using either.

790
00:41:38,845 --> 00:41:42,045
Speaker 1: Carrots or to be a spy for Iran. Yes, even

791
00:41:42,085 --> 00:41:44,045
Speaker 1: though they were accusing you of being a spy and

792
00:41:44,085 --> 00:41:47,005
Speaker 1: they convicted you of being a spy for Israel.

793
00:41:47,365 --> 00:41:51,045
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean I think he and they knew

794
00:41:51,085 --> 00:41:54,925
Speaker 2: I wasn't a spy, but once their organization decided that

795
00:41:54,965 --> 00:41:56,485
Speaker 2: would be the line they were running and that's what

796
00:41:56,485 --> 00:41:58,445
Speaker 2: they were going to convict me of, they all just

797
00:41:58,565 --> 00:42:02,965
Speaker 2: sort of parroted the propaganda from then on. But yeah,

798
00:42:03,005 --> 00:42:10,205
Speaker 2: so it sort of we had a very like conflict relationship.

799
00:42:10,645 --> 00:42:13,285
Speaker 2: There's a lot of animosity between us. He had a

800
00:42:13,325 --> 00:42:16,405
Speaker 2: sort of a classic male ego. He wanted to call

801
00:42:16,445 --> 00:42:18,925
Speaker 2: the shots, be in charge, and wanted everybody. I think

802
00:42:18,925 --> 00:42:21,405
Speaker 2: he was used to getting his way with everything, including

803
00:42:21,445 --> 00:42:26,965
Speaker 2: among his colleagues. Maybe something about my defiance attracted him

804
00:42:27,005 --> 00:42:30,285
Speaker 2: in a way I don't know. I would often make

805
00:42:30,405 --> 00:42:35,045
Speaker 2: jokes and mock him, laugh at him, and I think

806
00:42:35,125 --> 00:42:37,765
Speaker 2: in a way he liked that because nobody else really

807
00:42:37,885 --> 00:42:39,765
Speaker 2: had the balls to do it to him, and I

808
00:42:39,805 --> 00:42:42,325
Speaker 2: didn't really understand who he was or how important he was,

809
00:42:42,365 --> 00:42:44,085
Speaker 2: and I didn't really care at that point either, so.

810
00:42:44,125 --> 00:42:45,965
Speaker 3: That's probably why I was doing it.

811
00:42:46,245 --> 00:42:50,085
Speaker 2: So he went through phases of being really, really horrible

812
00:42:51,125 --> 00:42:54,685
Speaker 2: using sticks instead of carrots, and you know, banning me.

813
00:42:54,765 --> 00:42:59,925
Speaker 2: I was banned from family calls, embassy, consular visits, everything,

814
00:43:00,045 --> 00:43:02,325
Speaker 2: banned from everything as a result of one of my

815
00:43:02,365 --> 00:43:04,725
Speaker 2: acts of defiance. And that was him that instigated that.

816
00:43:04,765 --> 00:43:06,885
Speaker 2: Band He went to the judge and got me banned

817
00:43:06,885 --> 00:43:10,005
Speaker 2: from you know, contacting my family for nine months and

818
00:43:10,605 --> 00:43:13,965
Speaker 2: banning me from embassy visits is against international law, but

819
00:43:14,005 --> 00:43:16,405
Speaker 2: they still managed to do that, so, you know, he

820
00:43:16,485 --> 00:43:19,605
Speaker 2: was responsible for a lot of my suffering, you know,

821
00:43:19,725 --> 00:43:24,165
Speaker 2: into a But then toward the beginning of twenty twenty,

822
00:43:25,365 --> 00:43:28,405
Speaker 2: when the situation changed with the negotiations with the Australian

823
00:43:28,405 --> 00:43:30,605
Speaker 2: government and they gave up on trying to recruit me,

824
00:43:31,805 --> 00:43:35,165
Speaker 2: he kind of changed his behavior toward me and started

825
00:43:35,205 --> 00:43:39,485
Speaker 2: actually flirting with me, courting me, breaking the rules in

826
00:43:39,565 --> 00:43:43,245
Speaker 2: order to give me favor, to show off, to give

827
00:43:43,245 --> 00:43:48,205
Speaker 2: me benefits and presence. Immediately organized a birthday party for me.

828
00:43:48,445 --> 00:43:51,405
Speaker 2: He bought me clothes, he brought me cake, he bought

829
00:43:51,445 --> 00:43:56,605
Speaker 2: me pizza, you know, developed feelings for.

830
00:43:56,645 --> 00:44:03,045
Speaker 3: Me essentially, and I.

831
00:44:00,845 --> 00:44:02,845
Speaker 2: I guess, I don't know if I had a choice,

832
00:44:02,925 --> 00:44:07,045
Speaker 2: but I entered into this dangerous, risky sort of game

833
00:44:07,365 --> 00:44:11,325
Speaker 2: of trying to toy with his affections and use his

834
00:44:12,165 --> 00:44:16,565
Speaker 2: in a way weakness for me to my benefit, but

835
00:44:16,685 --> 00:44:19,445
Speaker 2: without properly understanding the rules of the game and the parameters,

836
00:44:19,485 --> 00:44:21,965
Speaker 2: and therefore shooting myself in the foot of hell all

837
00:44:22,045 --> 00:44:23,285
Speaker 2: the time because I just couldn't.

838
00:44:23,805 --> 00:44:24,605
Speaker 3: I couldn't play the.

839
00:44:24,525 --> 00:44:26,285
Speaker 2: Game where when I didn't have any cards in my

840
00:44:26,325 --> 00:44:27,885
Speaker 2: hand and I didn't know the rules of the game.

841
00:44:28,525 --> 00:44:31,965
Speaker 2: So it was a really ye and he there was

842
00:44:32,005 --> 00:44:34,645
Speaker 2: a lot of emotional abuse I was. I was entirely

843
00:44:34,725 --> 00:44:37,605
Speaker 2: under his power. I was in solitary confinement under his control,

844
00:44:38,005 --> 00:44:41,685
Speaker 2: and it was Yeah, it was a really, really difficult situation.

845
00:44:41,725 --> 00:44:44,405
Speaker 2: I couldn't get out of that I was trying to

846
00:44:44,565 --> 00:44:45,645
Speaker 2: influence to my benefit.

847
00:44:45,925 --> 00:44:50,085
Speaker 1: The word I kept coming back to as I read

848
00:44:50,805 --> 00:44:54,685
Speaker 1: your account was feisty, and I kept saying while I

849
00:44:54,765 --> 00:45:02,445
Speaker 1: was reading Kylie, stoppish, stop stop it, stop it. I

850
00:45:02,565 --> 00:45:05,685
Speaker 1: was so worried for you, And I was just like,

851
00:45:05,805 --> 00:45:08,765
Speaker 1: don't say that, don't do that, don't mock him, just

852
00:45:08,845 --> 00:45:11,805
Speaker 1: be a good girl, which I thought was interesting, Like

853
00:45:11,845 --> 00:45:14,365
Speaker 1: I was like, just play the game to get out

854
00:45:14,365 --> 00:45:18,205
Speaker 1: of there, but of course what would I know. But

855
00:45:18,645 --> 00:45:24,085
Speaker 1: also I realized that you never gave up like you

856
00:45:24,285 --> 00:45:27,645
Speaker 1: never were. I mean, there were times when you had

857
00:45:27,765 --> 00:45:31,965
Speaker 1: complete despair, but it didn't last long. And I was

858
00:45:32,045 --> 00:45:37,445
Speaker 1: wondering if that sense of pushing back and being feisty

859
00:45:38,365 --> 00:45:42,245
Speaker 1: that was part of how you survived. Was it a

860
00:45:42,365 --> 00:45:43,805
Speaker 1: choice it was.

861
00:45:44,405 --> 00:45:46,685
Speaker 2: I think that's a really good way of looking at it, actually,

862
00:45:46,725 --> 00:45:49,925
Speaker 2: because I don't know if I'm a feisty person in

863
00:45:50,405 --> 00:45:53,565
Speaker 2: real life, but I'm actually I am stubborn, and.

864
00:45:55,405 --> 00:45:57,565
Speaker 3: I do have a kind of a sense of justice.

865
00:45:57,245 --> 00:45:59,845
Speaker 2: I guess, or injustice or you know.

866
00:46:00,125 --> 00:46:01,405
Speaker 3: I don't like when.

867
00:46:02,805 --> 00:46:07,725
Speaker 2: I'm not somebody who it's easy to bully. So for me,

868
00:46:08,605 --> 00:46:11,605
Speaker 2: I had had an I was completely fed up with

869
00:46:11,805 --> 00:46:14,165
Speaker 2: towding the line and doing what they wanted when they

870
00:46:14,205 --> 00:46:18,405
Speaker 2: constantly broke their promises, shifted the goldposts and essentially fucked

871
00:46:18,405 --> 00:46:20,445
Speaker 2: me over like they were bullies and I was weak

872
00:46:21,005 --> 00:46:23,405
Speaker 2: and they were getting what they wanted from my weakness.

873
00:46:23,645 --> 00:46:25,365
Speaker 2: I had to stand up to them and show them

874
00:46:25,365 --> 00:46:27,685
Speaker 2: that I was stronger than they thought in order to

875
00:46:28,445 --> 00:46:33,125
Speaker 2: I guess, establish a red line and not let them

876
00:46:33,125 --> 00:46:35,925
Speaker 2: do whatever they wanted to me. So I saw it

877
00:46:35,925 --> 00:46:38,645
Speaker 2: as it was a survival mechanism in a way. For me.

878
00:46:39,165 --> 00:46:40,845
Speaker 2: I didn't know how long I would be there for.

879
00:46:41,165 --> 00:46:43,045
Speaker 2: I wanted to come out with my dignity and tact

880
00:46:43,085 --> 00:46:45,405
Speaker 2: as well, and it was important to me to stand

881
00:46:45,485 --> 00:46:48,645
Speaker 2: up to them. And yes, you know, I did have

882
00:46:48,685 --> 00:46:51,525
Speaker 2: a big mouth at times, and you know, would mock

883
00:46:51,565 --> 00:46:53,445
Speaker 2: and belittle certain members of them that I knew I

884
00:46:53,445 --> 00:46:58,125
Speaker 2: would get away with, or joke around with clazizade or whatever.

885
00:46:58,245 --> 00:47:01,205
Speaker 2: But that was because I understood I'd probably would get

886
00:47:01,205 --> 00:47:03,365
Speaker 2: away with it, you know, Like I spoken off fastly

887
00:47:03,405 --> 00:47:05,805
Speaker 2: by that point. I understood the dynamic between them all

888
00:47:05,805 --> 00:47:07,165
Speaker 2: by that point, and I.

889
00:47:07,165 --> 00:47:09,965
Speaker 3: Just didn't care, Like you just reach a.

890
00:47:09,925 --> 00:47:12,285
Speaker 2: Point where you stopped caring. Yeah, I got nothing to lose,

891
00:47:12,605 --> 00:47:16,405
Speaker 2: you know, And befriending some of them actually was beneficial

892
00:47:16,605 --> 00:47:20,525
Speaker 2: because I got information out of them. So I probably

893
00:47:20,605 --> 00:47:22,445
Speaker 2: wasn't very smart. I probably should have just kept my

894
00:47:22,485 --> 00:47:25,645
Speaker 2: head down, stay quiet, and not got to know any

895
00:47:25,685 --> 00:47:28,485
Speaker 2: of them and just waited for the government to get

896
00:47:28,485 --> 00:47:31,045
Speaker 2: me out. But I wasn't seeing any movement on that front,

897
00:47:31,645 --> 00:47:33,965
Speaker 2: and because it wasn't in the media for so long,

898
00:47:34,045 --> 00:47:37,445
Speaker 2: I just I didn't trust that I would be prioritized

899
00:47:37,685 --> 00:47:41,125
Speaker 2: that anybody really knew what was going on, and so

900
00:47:41,205 --> 00:47:43,085
Speaker 2: I just thought that was really the only avenue I

901
00:47:43,125 --> 00:47:44,125
Speaker 2: had left to me.

902
00:47:44,565 --> 00:47:48,165
Speaker 1: Because he was so instrumental in the negotiations with the

903
00:47:48,165 --> 00:47:52,525
Speaker 1: Australian government about your release. Did it occur to you

904
00:47:52,565 --> 00:47:55,685
Speaker 1: that maybe he was going to stall them so that

905
00:47:55,725 --> 00:47:58,045
Speaker 1: he could keep you there because he'd become so obsessed

906
00:47:58,045 --> 00:47:58,285
Speaker 1: with you.

907
00:47:58,765 --> 00:48:02,285
Speaker 2: Yeah, it occurred to me too late, you know, once

908
00:48:02,325 --> 00:48:04,525
Speaker 2: I was already too deep in it to get out,

909
00:48:05,765 --> 00:48:08,125
Speaker 2: and I actually just didn't think that this person is

910
00:48:08,285 --> 00:48:11,005
Speaker 2: powerful enough to do that, to get in the way

911
00:48:11,005 --> 00:48:14,925
Speaker 2: of a diplomatic negotiation. I'm pretty sure that's what happened,

912
00:48:15,285 --> 00:48:19,725
Speaker 2: but I don't know one hundred percent. But they would

913
00:48:19,765 --> 00:48:21,645
Speaker 2: have got me out in the end. But I do

914
00:48:21,685 --> 00:48:24,445
Speaker 2: believe that I spent a significant period extra in prison

915
00:48:24,845 --> 00:48:29,325
Speaker 2: because of his infatuation with him and the fact that

916
00:48:29,405 --> 00:48:31,365
Speaker 2: he didn't really want to make a deal to let

917
00:48:31,445 --> 00:48:33,645
Speaker 2: me go and so kept putting roadblocks in the way.

918
00:48:33,885 --> 00:48:34,565
Speaker 2: For the hell of it.

919
00:48:34,685 --> 00:48:36,605
Speaker 1: Has he tried to contact you since he got out.

920
00:48:36,805 --> 00:48:39,365
Speaker 2: He hasn't contacted me directly. No, I mean that would

921
00:48:39,405 --> 00:48:43,485
Speaker 2: be he was I believe removed from my case because

922
00:48:43,525 --> 00:48:47,405
Speaker 2: of this relationship with me. For one of a better

923
00:48:47,445 --> 00:48:52,565
Speaker 2: words about a couple of months before my release. He

924
00:48:52,685 --> 00:48:56,205
Speaker 2: was still influencing things, though from behind the scenes, I believe,

925
00:48:56,285 --> 00:48:58,885
Speaker 2: up until five weeks or four weeks before my release,

926
00:48:59,805 --> 00:49:01,765
Speaker 2: when he did manage to send me a few messages

927
00:49:01,845 --> 00:49:03,925
Speaker 2: via other people when I was moved back to Tuay

928
00:49:04,885 --> 00:49:07,605
Speaker 2: in October or September twenty twenty.

929
00:49:08,205 --> 00:49:11,525
Speaker 1: And to be clear, they feel were never required. It

930
00:49:11,565 --> 00:49:15,485
Speaker 1: was not. It was very much a one way abusive relationship.

931
00:49:15,165 --> 00:49:19,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, but I certainly gave him to believe that

932
00:49:19,325 --> 00:49:22,645
Speaker 2: there was hope, you know, because I was trying to

933
00:49:22,765 --> 00:49:28,205
Speaker 2: leverage him for my freedom but also for better conditions

934
00:49:28,245 --> 00:49:30,805
Speaker 2: in prison, you know, I was. It was for me

935
00:49:30,845 --> 00:49:34,165
Speaker 2: a matter of survival. I wanted him on side. I

936
00:49:34,205 --> 00:49:37,165
Speaker 2: wanted him to be my friend because he was so

937
00:49:37,325 --> 00:49:40,245
Speaker 2: powerful in there that he could do things like bring

938
00:49:40,285 --> 00:49:43,085
Speaker 2: me a three tiered chocolate cake with my name iced

939
00:49:43,125 --> 00:49:46,565
Speaker 2: on it for my birthday, or you know, authorize me

940
00:49:46,645 --> 00:49:48,485
Speaker 2: to be able to wear my own clothes and not

941
00:49:48,565 --> 00:49:52,205
Speaker 2: the prison uniform, authorized me to have extra shopping lists,

942
00:49:52,365 --> 00:49:55,645
Speaker 2: authorized me to go outside the prison for medical treatment

943
00:49:55,685 --> 00:49:57,885
Speaker 2: to you know, he allowed me to go to an

944
00:49:57,885 --> 00:50:02,365
Speaker 2: optometrist in Tehran and choose a pair of glasses because

945
00:50:02,685 --> 00:50:06,005
Speaker 2: my eyesight was ruined by years of staring at a

946
00:50:06,005 --> 00:50:08,245
Speaker 2: wall a couple of meters in front of me, so

947
00:50:08,285 --> 00:50:10,845
Speaker 2: I needed reading glasses and he authorized that, you know,

948
00:50:10,965 --> 00:50:14,125
Speaker 2: medical treatment, all sorts of things. It was beneficial to

949
00:50:14,205 --> 00:50:17,925
Speaker 2: me to sort of develop a friendly relationship with him

950
00:50:17,925 --> 00:50:22,685
Speaker 2: in order to leverage that. So, whilst it wasn't reciprocated,

951
00:50:23,845 --> 00:50:27,365
Speaker 2: I did, you know, encourage it to a certain extent

952
00:50:27,405 --> 00:50:31,005
Speaker 2: at certain times because I could see the benefit sometimes.

953
00:50:31,045 --> 00:50:34,045
Speaker 1: Another thing that he had control over was when you

954
00:50:34,085 --> 00:50:37,325
Speaker 1: were occasionally given your phone during interrogations and allowed to

955
00:50:37,405 --> 00:50:42,845
Speaker 1: either WhatsApp or call your family. And in that early

956
00:50:43,325 --> 00:50:47,965
Speaker 1: stage your husband Ruslan, when did the phone calls with

957
00:50:48,365 --> 00:50:51,645
Speaker 1: your now ex husband start to become a little odd

958
00:50:52,125 --> 00:50:56,645
Speaker 1: and start to give you, you know, cause for confusion.

959
00:50:56,685 --> 00:50:59,645
Speaker 3: After the second call I had to him. Ever, actually.

960
00:51:01,085 --> 00:51:03,445
Speaker 2: The first call was just out of the blue. He

961
00:51:03,525 --> 00:51:05,645
Speaker 2: wasn't expecting it, He didn't know where I was. He

962
00:51:05,765 --> 00:51:08,605
Speaker 2: was very worried about me, and he was himself just

963
00:51:08,685 --> 00:51:13,285
Speaker 2: a just worried husband wanting information about his wife. But

964
00:51:13,365 --> 00:51:16,165
Speaker 2: the second time I called, he was distant, he was cold.

965
00:51:16,285 --> 00:51:18,125
Speaker 2: I had a feeling he wasn't the only person in

966
00:51:18,165 --> 00:51:21,525
Speaker 2: the room, and he had developed a kind of a

967
00:51:21,565 --> 00:51:24,445
Speaker 2: security mindset, and I mean as you would. I mean,

968
00:51:25,365 --> 00:51:29,325
Speaker 2: you know, he knew that some nefarious group in Iran

969
00:51:29,445 --> 00:51:32,765
Speaker 2: had arrested me or taken me hostage or something, so

970
00:51:33,045 --> 00:51:35,285
Speaker 2: of course he would be mindful of security. But I

971
00:51:35,365 --> 00:51:37,445
Speaker 2: just felt like it wasn't the person I knew that

972
00:51:37,485 --> 00:51:39,485
Speaker 2: I was talking to. It was someone else, and it

973
00:51:39,565 --> 00:51:43,765
Speaker 2: was cold and unfeeling, and I just it upset me.

974
00:51:44,405 --> 00:51:47,205
Speaker 1: Did you eventually sort of stop speaking and stop contacting

975
00:51:47,245 --> 00:51:47,605
Speaker 1: each other?

976
00:51:48,525 --> 00:51:51,485
Speaker 2: Well, we couldn't, you know, especially because of his links

977
00:51:51,525 --> 00:51:54,525
Speaker 2: to Israel. Once the first phase was out of the

978
00:51:54,525 --> 00:51:57,325
Speaker 2: way and they'd got what they wanted or tried out

979
00:51:57,325 --> 00:52:01,085
Speaker 2: of him. I was not allowed to call him, really

980
00:52:01,565 --> 00:52:04,045
Speaker 2: because his Ida occasionally would give me a favor and

981
00:52:04,085 --> 00:52:07,605
Speaker 2: allow me to call him, but I was mainly calling

982
00:52:07,645 --> 00:52:11,605
Speaker 2: my parents and my sister Belinda on the rare occasion

983
00:52:11,645 --> 00:52:13,365
Speaker 2: that I was permitted phone calls.

984
00:52:13,645 --> 00:52:15,485
Speaker 1: You had a lot of time to think. Did you

985
00:52:17,045 --> 00:52:19,605
Speaker 1: tell yourself a story about what might have happened?

986
00:52:20,085 --> 00:52:22,725
Speaker 2: I certainly theorized a lot about how I came to

987
00:52:22,765 --> 00:52:25,205
Speaker 2: have been arrested in the first place. I just because

988
00:52:25,205 --> 00:52:27,605
Speaker 2: I didn't understand all the dynamics, and I still don't

989
00:52:27,605 --> 00:52:31,765
Speaker 2: completely you know, from getting to know some of the IGC,

990
00:52:31,925 --> 00:52:35,605
Speaker 2: including Couzizade and others, I was able to piece a

991
00:52:35,685 --> 00:52:39,205
Speaker 2: few things together about over time, over a number of years,

992
00:52:39,605 --> 00:52:43,005
Speaker 2: about how I came to have been flagged on their

993
00:52:43,085 --> 00:52:46,925
Speaker 2: radar at all. And a guy that I had interviewed

994
00:52:47,765 --> 00:52:50,005
Speaker 2: prior to my arrest in Iran who wasn't an Iranian,

995
00:52:50,085 --> 00:52:53,365
Speaker 2: he was a Bahraini for my research, had some sort

996
00:52:53,365 --> 00:52:57,525
Speaker 2: of involvement with the Revolutionary Guards and had potentially betrayed me,

997
00:52:57,605 --> 00:53:01,805
Speaker 2: dabbed me in for whatever reason as someone suspicious to them,

998
00:53:02,285 --> 00:53:04,525
Speaker 2: which what led to them taking an interest in me

999
00:53:04,605 --> 00:53:07,245
Speaker 2: whilst I was still in Iran for my academic three

1000
00:53:07,245 --> 00:53:12,165
Speaker 2: week trip and led to my so this person but

1001
00:53:12,325 --> 00:53:14,405
Speaker 2: essentially is responsible for my rest.

1002
00:53:14,805 --> 00:53:18,725
Speaker 1: At one stage, Kuzie said to you, your husband's having

1003
00:53:18,765 --> 00:53:22,045
Speaker 1: an affair, your marriage is over. Did you just think

1004
00:53:22,085 --> 00:53:24,005
Speaker 1: that was just another thing that he was saying to

1005
00:53:24,045 --> 00:53:25,125
Speaker 1: you to try and break you.

1006
00:53:25,925 --> 00:53:27,805
Speaker 2: Yeah. I didn't really give it much credence at the

1007
00:53:27,845 --> 00:53:31,725
Speaker 2: time because, yeah, as you said, like they would say

1008
00:53:31,725 --> 00:53:34,205
Speaker 2: things to me like that all the time, Like nobody

1009
00:53:34,205 --> 00:53:37,645
Speaker 2: in Australia cares about you. The embassy hasn't even reached

1010
00:53:37,645 --> 00:53:38,365
Speaker 2: out once.

1011
00:53:38,165 --> 00:53:39,125
Speaker 3: To ask where you are.

1012
00:53:40,085 --> 00:53:43,365
Speaker 2: They know you're guilty, therefore they're not bothering about bringing

1013
00:53:43,365 --> 00:53:43,845
Speaker 2: you home.

1014
00:53:44,365 --> 00:53:46,405
Speaker 3: You know, you're a traded to Australia.

1015
00:53:45,925 --> 00:53:48,645
Speaker 2: Too as well as you know, you know, like the

1016
00:53:48,645 --> 00:53:51,325
Speaker 2: Australians know you work for Israel like and you're an

1017
00:53:51,325 --> 00:53:53,125
Speaker 2: Australian citizens, so they wouldn't care about you.

1018
00:53:53,125 --> 00:53:53,325
Speaker 1: You know.

1019
00:53:53,485 --> 00:53:55,565
Speaker 3: They would say all sorts of bullshit to me.

1020
00:53:56,325 --> 00:54:00,885
Speaker 2: So when they said that about my husband, I'm just like, yeah, whatever,

1021
00:54:01,045 --> 00:54:03,285
Speaker 2: Like I didn't didn't believe it, and I actually laughed

1022
00:54:03,285 --> 00:54:04,885
Speaker 2: at them. I think when they said it, I don't

1023
00:54:04,885 --> 00:54:06,565
Speaker 2: know whether they knew that or not. They could have

1024
00:54:06,645 --> 00:54:09,125
Speaker 2: just been saying that to upset me, and actually it

1025
00:54:09,165 --> 00:54:11,885
Speaker 2: was true, but they didn't know, you know, so either

1026
00:54:11,885 --> 00:54:13,725
Speaker 2: they knew something or they didn't, I'm not sure. But

1027
00:54:14,005 --> 00:54:16,725
Speaker 2: at the time I didn't really believe them.

1028
00:54:16,965 --> 00:54:18,965
Speaker 1: Had you kind of made peace with yourself in your

1029
00:54:18,965 --> 00:54:23,165
Speaker 1: mind that whatever the reason, your marriage was over while

1030
00:54:23,165 --> 00:54:25,165
Speaker 1: you were still in prison, I.

1031
00:54:25,125 --> 00:54:27,685
Speaker 2: Wasn't thinking about it a lot, to be honest. The

1032
00:54:27,725 --> 00:54:31,445
Speaker 2: outside world felt so far away. I was really My

1033
00:54:31,565 --> 00:54:34,445
Speaker 2: coping mechanism was to just focus on the here and now,

1034
00:54:34,485 --> 00:54:37,685
Speaker 2: live in the moment and forget the future to get them, like,

1035
00:54:37,845 --> 00:54:40,805
Speaker 2: you know, just not think about my old life, thinking

1036
00:54:40,845 --> 00:54:44,325
Speaker 2: about my family, my job, everything, my relationship.

1037
00:54:44,485 --> 00:54:45,485
Speaker 3: It upset me a lot.

1038
00:54:45,525 --> 00:54:48,365
Speaker 2: So I would just sort of numb myself and just

1039
00:54:48,445 --> 00:54:50,125
Speaker 2: live in the here and now and try and focus

1040
00:54:50,165 --> 00:54:54,565
Speaker 2: on various you know, goings on within the two A unit,

1041
00:54:54,765 --> 00:54:58,685
Speaker 2: what my friends were up to, you know, concerning myself with.

1042
00:54:58,645 --> 00:54:59,605
Speaker 3: The day to day routine.

1043
00:55:00,085 --> 00:55:03,365
Speaker 2: So, whilst I didn't think about it, I was pretty

1044
00:55:03,405 --> 00:55:05,645
Speaker 2: sure our marriage was over, just because I didn't feel

1045
00:55:05,685 --> 00:55:08,645
Speaker 2: that I was getting the support that I would have

1046
00:55:09,765 --> 00:55:12,325
Speaker 2: wanted from a partner in such a situation that I

1047
00:55:12,365 --> 00:55:15,085
Speaker 2: thought I would have given had it been reversed. So

1048
00:55:15,165 --> 00:55:17,245
Speaker 2: I felt like, well, when I do come home, whenever

1049
00:55:17,285 --> 00:55:20,725
Speaker 2: that may be, I don't think we can come back

1050
00:55:20,765 --> 00:55:21,125
Speaker 2: from this.

1051
00:55:21,925 --> 00:55:24,965
Speaker 1: After eight hundred and four days, on November the twenty fifth,

1052
00:55:25,325 --> 00:55:30,405
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, you were released. Could you believe it? No?

1053
00:55:31,565 --> 00:55:36,725
Speaker 2: I also had such a mistrust that it was real

1054
00:55:36,845 --> 00:55:39,885
Speaker 2: that even when it was happening, I had part of

1055
00:55:39,885 --> 00:55:43,965
Speaker 2: my brain was going, don't celebrate yet something could still

1056
00:55:44,005 --> 00:55:47,125
Speaker 2: happen to eff it up, you know, Like you've got

1057
00:55:47,125 --> 00:55:49,525
Speaker 2: out of prison, but you're still in Iranian territory. They

1058
00:55:49,525 --> 00:55:51,965
Speaker 2: can come and pick you up at any moment. They

1059
00:55:52,005 --> 00:55:53,765
Speaker 2: can turn the plane around in the sky as long

1060
00:55:53,805 --> 00:55:56,285
Speaker 2: as you're still an Iranian airspace and take you straight back. So,

1061
00:55:57,245 --> 00:55:59,925
Speaker 2: you know, the diplomatic deal had fallen through a few times,

1062
00:55:59,965 --> 00:56:04,045
Speaker 2: and I just I didn't want to give myself false hope.

1063
00:56:04,125 --> 00:56:07,045
Speaker 2: So even when the ambassador came two days earlier and

1064
00:56:07,125 --> 00:56:09,725
Speaker 2: told me two days before my release and said we're

1065
00:56:09,725 --> 00:56:12,645
Speaker 2: going to release you in forty eight hours, Nick Warner,

1066
00:56:12,685 --> 00:56:15,925
Speaker 2: the envoy, who's fantastic, he did so much to help,

1067
00:56:15,965 --> 00:56:19,205
Speaker 2: and the Ambassador Lindall too, you know, he's on his

1068
00:56:19,245 --> 00:56:21,085
Speaker 2: ways in the air, I just didn't believe it, and

1069
00:56:21,125 --> 00:56:23,125
Speaker 2: I thought, okay, this is another time it's going to

1070
00:56:23,125 --> 00:56:27,165
Speaker 2: fall through. So only at the only when we passed

1071
00:56:27,165 --> 00:56:30,085
Speaker 2: out of her any airspace and landed in Qatar, in Doha,

1072
00:56:30,205 --> 00:56:32,485
Speaker 2: which was our first stop on the way back to Australia,

1073
00:56:32,485 --> 00:56:35,645
Speaker 2: did I actually kind of start to breathe and try

1074
00:56:35,645 --> 00:56:37,565
Speaker 2: to grapple with the fact that I wasn't in a

1075
00:56:37,605 --> 00:56:39,645
Speaker 2: run anymore, that couldn't get me anymore.

1076
00:56:42,525 --> 00:56:45,965
Speaker 1: That is not the end of my conversation with Kylie.

1077
00:56:46,205 --> 00:56:48,805
Speaker 1: If you are a Muma Mea subscriber, you can hear

1078
00:56:48,845 --> 00:56:52,285
Speaker 1: what happened to Kylie after she got out, and in

1079
00:56:52,325 --> 00:56:57,165
Speaker 1: this subscriber episode, she talks about how her life changed forever,

1080
00:56:57,565 --> 00:57:01,325
Speaker 1: what it was like trying to acclimatize, and what happened

1081
00:57:01,645 --> 00:57:04,525
Speaker 1: when she got back to her house and her marriage,

1082
00:57:04,925 --> 00:57:08,485
Speaker 1: and that part is just unbelievable.

1083
00:57:08,565 --> 00:57:10,765
Speaker 2: Them together in the street and publish them and that

1084
00:57:10,925 --> 00:57:15,685
Speaker 2: was quite upsetting for me to see, but it is

1085
00:57:15,685 --> 00:57:17,525
Speaker 2: what it is, and you know, I wish them all

1086
00:57:17,525 --> 00:57:17,925
Speaker 2: the best.

1087
00:57:18,165 --> 00:57:21,605
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to hear that episode.

1088
00:57:21,965 --> 00:57:25,525
Speaker 1: You can find Kylie's book, The Uncaged Sky. It's brilliant

1089
00:57:25,845 --> 00:57:29,805
Speaker 1: Vira link in our show notes. Our producer is GM moylan,

1090
00:57:29,885 --> 00:57:33,925
Speaker 1: the executive producer is Eliza Ratliffe, and I'm Nea Friedman.

1091
00:57:35,525 --> 00:57:37,845
Speaker 1: If you're looking for something else to listen to, like

1092
00:57:37,965 --> 00:57:40,365
Speaker 1: and follow all of our Mum and Mea podcasts which

1093
00:57:40,405 --> 00:57:43,445
Speaker 1: are currently bringing you Hot Pod Summer one hundred hours

1094
00:57:43,485 --> 00:57:48,605
Speaker 1: of summer listens, from spicy conversations to incredible stories, fashion beauty,

1095
00:57:49,045 --> 00:57:51,045
Speaker 1: where the friends in your ears over Summer