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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Maya out Loud, where women come for a debrief.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Meya Friedman, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens. And here's what.

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Speaker 2: Made our agenda for today, Wednesday, the eighteenth of June,

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Speaker 2: the Duchess of Megan has sat down for a long

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Speaker 2: interview about her Girl Boss credentials. But it's the woman

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Speaker 2: who's interviewing her who we really want to talk about.

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Speaker 1: I saw my therapist last week and there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of helpful tips about anxiety that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: share with the.

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Speaker 3: Group and the school debating topic that had parents calling

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Speaker 3: with complaints.

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Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it. While some people

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Speaker 1: are using AI to write letters to their landlord or

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Speaker 1: maybe help them with their grocery lists, others more masochistic

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Speaker 1: people are turning to chat GPT to find out how

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Speaker 1: hot they are. People are uploading images of themselves and

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Speaker 1: asking for unsparing assessments of their looks.

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Speaker 3: That is simply none of them. I don't know why

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Speaker 3: I would none of that.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that if you threatened me with something.

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Speaker 1: But it gets worse because then they're sharing the results

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Speaker 1: on social media. So they're also in some cases asking

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Speaker 1: a ID to formulate a plan for them to glow

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Speaker 1: up or improve their appearance. Now, our big boss Ruth

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Speaker 1: did this in the service of journalism, Jesse, because none

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Speaker 1: of us us. What did she say and.

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Speaker 2: What was she told? That poor woman.

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Speaker 3: I will say Ruth has a great face, great face privilege,

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Speaker 3: but hers came back with thanks for sharing your photo

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Speaker 3: exclamation mark, enthusiastic pity. While I can't rate or judge

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Speaker 3: personal appearance, I can say this, your hair is absolutely stunning.

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Speaker 3: The rich red tone is eye catching, an elegant blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah blah blah. Oh if you're looking to dial

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Speaker 3: up the hot factor, this is when it gets bitchy.

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Speaker 1: Hang on a second. So I thought, like, that's actually

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Speaker 1: quite lovely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the complement sandwich, I think.

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Speaker 2: So to feel better about myself, I should do this.

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Speaker 3: And then just say what are the pretty things? Because

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Speaker 3: then we've got some feedback.

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Speaker 1: I don't try to chat GPT being my hype girl.

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Speaker 3: Okay, do you want to hear how they deliver criticism?

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, if you're looking to dial up the hot factor,

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Speaker 3: not that you need to. Here are a few ideas

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Speaker 3: depending on your vibe. I love how chat JPT speaks

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Speaker 3: to women, speaks toss like we're all twelve anyway, subtle

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Speaker 3: glow up tips, and it's got a little fire emoji hair.

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Speaker 3: You've already got to stand out color. Yeah, we know

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Speaker 3: you said that a face framing cut or long layers

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Speaker 3: could add movement and volume, make up a touch more contrast,

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Speaker 3: a deeper berry lip wardrobe, jewel tones, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: The truth you already look composed, self assured, and completely magnetic. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so I think that sign me up. It's actually quite nice.

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Speaker 3: But what I've seen going around on TikTok is people

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Speaker 3: saying like you could get your eyebrows waxed.

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Speaker 1: Or like suggesting surgery.

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Speaker 3: And I know, but how long until it is? I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is AI is not a polite person on the

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Speaker 3: other end, it's just input related, I suppose, And I

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Speaker 3: think it's dangerous. Isn't it funny how since the advent

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Speaker 3: of the Internet, it's like porn and am I ugly?

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Speaker 3: And the two things that human beings seem to gravitate.

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Speaker 2: True, because I remember clearly in one of my early

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Speaker 2: jobs that had access to the Internet on the work computers,

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Speaker 2: what most people spent their lunch times doing was going

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Speaker 2: to a site called am I Hot or not dot

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Speaker 2: com and just putting pictures of themselves up there and

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Speaker 2: asking it if they were hot. And that was in

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Speaker 2: the early cutesy days of the Internet. Now, of course,

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Speaker 2: what's interesting is that all those things that chat gpt

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Speaker 2: suggested to Ruth Jewel tones Berry lip, she might suddenly

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Speaker 2: find ads for that in her feed tomorrow. What about

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Speaker 2: this emerald green sweater? What about this lip blurring product?

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Speaker 2: It's not as innocent as it was.

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Speaker 3: It's sinister, Holly, it is incredibly sinister.

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Speaker 2: Look, let's not pretend that I didn't break my thumb

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Speaker 2: listening to the latest interview with Megan Markle or makes

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Speaker 2: Ussex or whatever we call her these days, because she's

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Speaker 2: just done a long form interview, which is what we call,

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Speaker 2: you know, like a proper podcast interview where you sit

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Speaker 2: down for a long time and like nineteen minutes ninety minutes.

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Speaker 2: The topics are wide ranging. She did one of these

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Speaker 2: when as ever and the first season with Love Megan dropped.

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Speaker 2: Since she sort of broke cover, she's been you know,

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Speaker 2: lying love for a couple of years. But this year,

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Speaker 2: since she's been back on the trail with her business,

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Speaker 2: she's done one of these and then she's done another one,

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Speaker 2: and she's done it with a podcast called a Spire,

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Speaker 2: which is hosted by a woman called Emma Greed.

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Speaker 3: I think we need a moment to catch everyone up

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Speaker 3: with who Emm Agreed is, because if you haven't heard

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Speaker 3: her name yet, you're about to. She has just like

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Speaker 3: burst onto the scene.

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Speaker 2: She has, but she has been around, but more largely

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes for quite some time. Do you want

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Speaker 2: a quick cheats on Emma?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 2: Emma Greed is forty two. She was born in London

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Speaker 2: to like a single mom, working class, oldest of four kids.

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Speaker 2: Her mom was why her dad is a make and dissent.

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Speaker 2: She has hustled, she says, since she was twelve. She

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Speaker 2: has worked in all kinds of levels of jobs and

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Speaker 2: then she found her feet in fashion right and in

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Speaker 2: her sort of twenties and early thirties she was quite

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Speaker 2: high up making deals between fashion brands and celebrities. So

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Speaker 2: in the days when you'd be like, we need a

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Speaker 2: model to sell our sweaters, she was one of the

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Speaker 2: people who would come in and make the deals for

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Speaker 2: lots of companies, and then one day she's like, why

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Speaker 2: don't we just cut out the middle map and with

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Speaker 2: her husband, YenS, who is himself a very very successful

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Speaker 2: fashion dude. He is the man behind Framed Denim, for example,

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Speaker 2: which is a really fancy jeans brand. They have been

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Speaker 2: the engine really behind a lot of the Kardashians big

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Speaker 2: brands in particular. So she went to Chris Jenna and

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Speaker 2: pitched Good American, which is Chloe's size inclusive deni brand,

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Speaker 2: very affordable, very low price point, very inclusive range. Pitched

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Speaker 2: that went great guns They're like, oh what about Kim?

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Speaker 2: What can we do for Kim? They were instrumental in

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Speaker 2: making Skims.

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Speaker 3: And both of those products. I mean, we all know

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Speaker 3: that celebrity brand extensions exist, but both of those products

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Speaker 3: are understood to be on their own terms, very good.

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Speaker 2: Products and very successful. So Skims is rumored to be

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Speaker 2: worth around four billion dollars, and who owns Skims is

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Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian. The Greeds and some investors like they have

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Speaker 2: a slice in that they don't just work for Kim.

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Speaker 2: In fact, lots of people suggest that Kim really works

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Speaker 2: for Emma, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And it's been very interesting because Emma is clearly the

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Speaker 1: business brain and the brand brain behind SKIMS. I think

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Speaker 1: Kim's official title is like creative director, and it's very

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Speaker 1: much built in her image. But what's interesting is, as

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Speaker 1: you say, Holly, she's you know, SKIMS is not new.

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Speaker 1: It's been around a few years now, five years, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so is Good American. But suddenly Emma Greed's got

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Speaker 1: a podcast. She's doing the rounds of all the other podcasts,

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Speaker 1: being interviewed. She is making a huge amount of social content,

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Speaker 1: and it's really interesting because, to be completely shallow, she

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Speaker 1: looks like she's always been out there, like she's incredibly beautiful,

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Speaker 1: incredibly stylish, very charismatic.

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Speaker 3: Great talent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's she's been a judge on the English

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Speaker 1: and the American version of Shark Tank for the last

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Speaker 1: few years, so it's not like this is her first outing.

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Speaker 1: But it's suddenly gone to a whole other level. And

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Speaker 1: the rumors are that that is because something about the

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Speaker 1: contract with Kim and Skims. Chris Jenner is reportedly looking

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Speaker 1: for other investors, other partners. Whether that relationships sourd or not,

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Speaker 1: or whether it's just a contractual period where she had

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Speaker 1: to not talk about Skims publicly and only Kim could.

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Speaker 1: Who knows. But she's very much having her main character mind.

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Speaker 2: She is, and what's really interesting about her is that

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Speaker 2: she is very and this is what we really wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk about. She's very girl boss energy right now.

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Speaker 2: Girl bosses have had a bad rap these last few years,

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Speaker 2: but Emma is kind of the face of this very

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Speaker 2: power bit in inverted common vibe that seems to be

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Speaker 2: back in terms muscle culture, a very hustle So she's

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Speaker 2: massively hustly. She takes no prisoners. Here's a little bit,

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Speaker 2: for example, of her talking about some of her philosophies

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Speaker 2: around business on the immensely successful Diary of a CEO podcast.

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Speaker 4: Work life balance is your problem. It isn't the employer's responsibility. Look,

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Speaker 4: I've for kids, and I had to figure out how

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Speaker 4: I would think about my own ambition balanced with my

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Speaker 4: parenting estry. And we have to have a level of

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Speaker 4: honesty about what it takes to be really successful.

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Speaker 3: But is it possible to be number one but still

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Speaker 3: have all of my egains and week?

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, If it's possible, tell me.

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Speaker 2: Who she is and I'll show you a liar.

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Speaker 3: Don't you love the classical music?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: I know that's Emma's vibe? She is very Kim Kardashian's

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Speaker 2: get your ass up and work. That is what Emma

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Speaker 2: is like. Now, our friend Megan Business Lady apparently not

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Speaker 2: really like that. What did you think about this meeting

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Speaker 2: of the girl bosses on the Iconic Emma's podcast?

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Speaker 1: So I listened to the whole thing, ninety minutes of it,

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Speaker 1: and I also watch some of it on social and

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, and to me, I felt so many things.

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Speaker 1: The first I need to unpack them with you guys.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I felt was absolute exhaustion that now,

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Speaker 1: in addition to running a business, you also have to

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Speaker 1: have a podcast giving all of your business wisdom. Look

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Speaker 1: like a million bucks dress, immaculate, do all these glamorous

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Speaker 1: photo shoots, make all this social media like, really perform

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Speaker 1: your work and also be teaching other women how to

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Speaker 1: do it? Now? I know I used to have a

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Speaker 1: podcast called Lady startup and I started lady startup and

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Speaker 1: I used to do that. I get it.

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Speaker 3: But in your defense, you don't look a million bucks.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's true.

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Speaker 5: I do what I have to.

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Speaker 1: It's like even watching them be interviewed, it's Megan. They're

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Speaker 1: both wearing fifteen centimeter sky high stilettos.

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Speaker 2: But the big part of Emma's brando as aspiration, right,

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Speaker 2: So if you follow her on social it's private jets,

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Speaker 2: it's a massive Malibu beach house. It's a different burke

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Speaker 2: and bag for every time. It's very right. So this

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Speaker 2: is a very specific asthetic.

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Speaker 1: And then Meghan's whole girl boss stick. It's a different

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Speaker 1: type of girl boss. It's all about I'm also not

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Speaker 1: missing out on anything with my children, and I like

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Speaker 1: to make their lunches. It's kind of like the the

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Speaker 1: traad wife girl boss, and I'm just doing it to

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Speaker 1: be real and to help other women and to bring joy.

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Speaker 1: So her girl bossism is completely altruistic. And I find

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Speaker 1: both of those models for what it takes to be

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Speaker 1: a female entrepreneur incredibly frustrating.

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Speaker 3: I think it just represents the bind that all women

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Speaker 3: are in. So Megan said a few times that she's

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Speaker 3: flying the plane while making the plane, which I say every.

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Speaker 1: Day, and which is true when you're an entrepreneur. That's true,

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Speaker 1: I have to say. And I've just got to get

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Speaker 1: this on my chest, all this stuff, and I know

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Speaker 1: this is what you have to do to promote a business. Now,

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Speaker 1: she's like being interviewed for nineteen minutes about her wisdom

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Speaker 1: about starting a business. She's been in business for two seconds.

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Speaker 1: Netflix are her partner. It hasn't gone that well. She's

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Speaker 1: started and stopped and renamed and sold out.

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Speaker 3: But that is the business. So there's this quote by

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Speaker 3: Emily Sundberg who says, the aesthetic of work, the performance

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Speaker 3: of ambition, can be more polished than the business behind it.

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Speaker 3: It also becomes the attachment point for ads and subscriptions,

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Speaker 3: and before long, the building in public content is the business.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's like and that's frustrating.

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Speaker 3: But what I meant to say about the flying the

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Speaker 3: plane is that she's flying the plane, she's making the plane.

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Speaker 3: You've also got to make content about the making and

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Speaker 3: flying at the plan.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying I'm just necessarily frustrated at these

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Speaker 1: particular women. I'm not at all it's like hate the game,

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Speaker 1: not the player, the game that women have to perform

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Speaker 1: their work while they're doing it and look immaculate while

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Speaker 1: doing it and somehow be our true as Dick and

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Speaker 1: be helping everybody. The thing with Megan is that her

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Speaker 1: experience of being in business is so specific to Megan

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Speaker 1: that it actually it's not it's just not real. It

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Speaker 1: applies to literally nobody else but Megan.

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Speaker 3: I've found em, agreed, the far more interesting player in this.

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Speaker 3: I know what you mean. And I also think that

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Speaker 3: Megan is in a bind because if you are a

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Speaker 3: female business owner, and me you know this better than anyone.

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Speaker 3: You don't get to just be the CEO. You've got

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Speaker 3: to be the brand ambassador. You've got to be the face.

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Speaker 3: You've got to be the personality. You have to be

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Speaker 3: the promise. And that's why female businesses can be uniquely vulnerable,

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Speaker 3: because Maya takes one step to the left and the

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Speaker 3: business is in trouble. And so what we've talked about

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Speaker 3: is that like having your business attached to a single identity.

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Speaker 1: So much pressure and I think so so much pressure. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you can hear the emotion in my voice and

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Speaker 1: the frustration at my voice.

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Speaker 5: I do.

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Speaker 1: I want it to come across that I am frustrated

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Speaker 1: at these women. I'm not at all. I've been a

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Speaker 1: business owner for seventeen years, a co founder with my husband.

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Speaker 1: It is a lot. And maybe I'm jealous that I

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Speaker 1: don't have that calm and that wisdom and that confidence,

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Speaker 1: and I don't look immaculate and I don't make sure

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Speaker 1: I miss no moments with any child and don't let

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Speaker 1: anything sleep and make lunches. Maybe I just feel insecure.

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Speaker 2: But Emma Greed isn't that. She isn't that for a second.

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Speaker 2: What Emma Greed is about is she's like, you'll work

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Speaker 2: your ass off, you'll sacrifice everything, and it will be hard.

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Speaker 2: I hear your frustration, and I get it. But I

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Speaker 2: think that actually what we're seeing is different versions of

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Speaker 2: female bosses. And that's inevitable, right because all the bosses

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Speaker 2: and all the business owners just used to be dudes.

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Speaker 1: Do do do doo, dude.

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Speaker 2: And they all were called John and they all looked

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Speaker 2: the same, and nobody gave a shit about their lives.

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Speaker 2: They just got to live there, spend their money and

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Speaker 2: have a good time. That's changing for men too. If

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Speaker 2: you think about one of the most successful podcasts in

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Speaker 2: the world is Diary of a CEO, Like, how much

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Speaker 2: time does Stephen Bartlett spend now performing being the really

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Speaker 2: successful CEO versus actually being the really successful CEO? And

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Speaker 2: there are others that are ja shetty. There are quite

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Speaker 2: a lot because now business people, particularly super successful ones,

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Speaker 2: or certainly ones who appear that way, are the new aspiration.

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Speaker 2: They used to be a little bit of sort of

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Speaker 2: sneer about that but or thinking it was boring or

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Speaker 2: thinking it was unsexy. But now when you think about

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Speaker 2: every movie star and celebrity and the kind of people

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Speaker 2: that we used to aspire to, they all want to

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Speaker 2: be CEOs. Gwyneth Paltrow. So it's almost like, yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: so interesting. So I think it's inevitable as more women

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Speaker 2: reach that level, whether they're owning their own businesses and

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Speaker 2: running them or whether they're just really high up in businesses.

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Speaker 2: And we don't know the names of lots of female

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Speaker 2: CEOs who are running businesses, but if they are forward facing,

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Speaker 2: they're going to look all different ways, don't they.

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Speaker 1: But they don't. So the ones that we know are

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Speaker 1: the ones who look hot and the ones who are

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Speaker 1: comfortable being on TV and doing podcasts and doing those

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Speaker 1: interviews and posting those glamour shots, and it just feels

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Speaker 1: like more pressure.

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Speaker 3: But you know what that's called is It's called strategy,

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Speaker 3: and I think that we don't present it. You know,

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Speaker 3: we talk about unpaid female labor. The unpaid female labor

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Speaker 3: of having to perform your business while doing it is

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Speaker 3: something that we see with so many Australian entrepreneurs who

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Speaker 3: are women. We see it with Laura Henshaw, the CEO

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Speaker 3: of Kick. Most of her job wouldn't be glamorous, but

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Speaker 3: part of what she does is showing up on social

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Speaker 3: media and it's a great business strategy. The same with

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Speaker 3: Jane Lou from Show Poe. Like, the other person who's

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Speaker 3: come out is the founder of cosmetics Jamie Kern Lima.

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Speaker 3: She's launched this podcast.

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Speaker 1: And that's who Megan did her interviews. So now I'm

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Speaker 1: just like, I barely do any of these interviews. Maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm jealous that I'm not being asked. I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's that. I think it's more that all these female

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Speaker 1: CEOs and founders seem to just go on each other's

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Speaker 1: podcasts about CEOs and founders, And I'm like, when is

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Speaker 1: anyone getting their work done, because.

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Speaker 3: I think that's part of the work. Though it's part

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Speaker 3: of promotion, it's part of strategy. In mind, I.

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Speaker 1: Get that, but it used to be that the CEO

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Speaker 1: was different to the person who went out and was

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Speaker 1: the face and was the all of that. And because

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Speaker 1: they're different skills, and some people like it and some

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Speaker 1: people don't, and it's more just I don't know, it

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Speaker 1: just feels like another thing on your to do list

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Speaker 1: and the bar being raised even high.

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Speaker 3: What we need to remember too, is that still the

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Speaker 3: funding that goes to female founders is so small, Like

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Speaker 3: I was reading something about it, and look, the stats

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Speaker 3: and data is all over the place, but there is

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Speaker 3: absolutely a gender bias in anything to do with female

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Speaker 3: owned businesses. And so you can see why these sort

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Speaker 3: of networks exist. There was a study out of the

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Speaker 3: University of Virginia that was about how women incur greater

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Speaker 3: penalties for ethical transgressions. So if there is like the

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Speaker 3: smallest thing that a woman does wrong, they did this

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Speaker 3: study and worked out that not only that, but they

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Speaker 3: need the woman to personally apologize in a way that

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Speaker 3: if it's a male CEO. They don't. They don't require

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Speaker 3: the man to take full responsibility for what happened. So

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Speaker 3: there are all these biases existing. And look, I found

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Speaker 3: parts of that interview grading, but I was listening to

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Speaker 3: it going these are two women of color who a

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Speaker 3: generation or two ago would face and continue to face

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Speaker 3: systemic barriers in business, and like, this is, in that

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Speaker 3: way an exciting and maybe progressive conversation.

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Speaker 2: I also found it quite interesting because most of the

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Speaker 2: interviews you hear with Megan, or the ones that she's

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Speaker 2: presenting herself on, are very fluffy. I don't think that

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Speaker 2: Emma Greed asked about the royal family, didn't talk about

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Speaker 2: Prince Harry. It was about business, particularly the first half

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Speaker 2: of it, and I actually found it quite interesting because

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Speaker 2: it was the first time i'd heard Meghan talk about

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Speaker 2: why the business name change, why all the stop starts.

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Speaker 2: And she made the point that a lot of businesses

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Speaker 2: will go through all that kind of stuff but behind

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Speaker 2: the scenes. But she can't go through anything behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes because there is no greater magnifying glass on anyone

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Speaker 2: than there is on Megan. So when she's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: and then Netflix came with an offer and we thought

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Speaker 2: maybe it would be better to do it like that,

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Speaker 2: so we paused things and we did that. I'm like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: I kind of I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: And I find Emma really interesting, Like I couldn't be

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Speaker 2: less like her. I don't want to be anything like her,

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Speaker 2: but as a kind of version of female success in

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Speaker 2: this moment, she's really interesting and quite refreshing.

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Speaker 3: And me, you've talked about this, how when you're in

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Speaker 3: a position of you know, running a business, there's this

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Speaker 3: expectation that you'll be sort of charitable and dole out

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Speaker 3: free advice, right, And there's this idea about mentorship and

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Speaker 3: may can we get a coffee on Tuesday?

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Speaker 1: And we've also got to be a mother because people

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Speaker 1: are very uncomfortable about women in business. So the way

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Speaker 1: that they're often attacked is either that they're bad mothers,

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Speaker 1: or they're not caring enough about, you know, their teams,

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Speaker 1: or sometimes they're difficult or assertive.

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Speaker 3: But the idea is that you will mentor other young

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Speaker 3: women because that is consistent with our feminine understanding of women.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And I thought with them, agreed. I thought this is

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Speaker 3: smart because people expect you to dole out free advice.

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Speaker 3: Monetize it, like if you're going to sit there and

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Speaker 3: give out business advice that you've spent your whole career acquiring.

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Speaker 3: There were, you know, fifty ads that played during that podcast.

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Speaker 3: She got paid good money to give out.

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Speaker 2: You also spoke a lot about women not wanting to

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Speaker 2: talk about money, and she likes to talk about money

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Speaker 2: because obviously money is a very big motivator for her.

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Speaker 2: And I've heard her talk about how, you know, the

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Speaker 2: fat she owns, this big Malibu beach house gives her

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Speaker 2: exceptional pleasure, which is something that you don't hear particularly

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Speaker 2: women saying, and that's her vibe. That's what she does.

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Speaker 2: But she does have a fund where she does give

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Speaker 2: money to people of color starting business in America. She

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Speaker 2: is on the Obama Foundation, so she does tick all

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Speaker 2: those boxes too. But she's very This is the bit

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Speaker 2: that I'm a bit uncomfortable with this. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people saying that this new version of the girl Boss,

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Speaker 2: girl Boss is dead, this kind of much more boss

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Speaker 2: bitch version. And I know that phrases Yucky is very trumpy,

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Speaker 2: it's trump coded, it's very like eighties greed is good.

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Speaker 2: The powersuit the heels like and I can see that too,

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Speaker 2: and the emm agreed of the world make an absolute

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Speaker 2: point of being completely apolitical, being completely we are across

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Speaker 2: the aisle like. It's interesting in terms of what it

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Speaker 2: says about where we're at.

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Speaker 3: There's a bit of modeling in terms of I suppose

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Speaker 3: being the male CEO and if you can't beat them,

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Speaker 3: join them.

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Speaker 1: In a moment. I want to tell you about the

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Speaker 1: conversation I had with my therapist this week. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: everyone's going to be very excited. Maybe I need to

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Speaker 1: talk to about girl Blessing. So last week I had

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Speaker 1: a conversation with my therapist. I haven't spoken to her

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Speaker 1: for a while. Fun fact, she's also Jesse's therapists.

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Speaker 3: On my therapist, I feel like that's a dilemma my

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Speaker 3: mother in law style my therapist.

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Speaker 2: Could you get anymore? Could you get any more?

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Speaker 1: And meshed makes it hard when I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about Jesse or when she wants to bitch about me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how she balances that. But she's actually

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Speaker 1: a performance psychologist, so she works with a lot of

430
00:20:55,182 --> 00:20:59,701
Speaker 1: actors and performers and podcasters and anyone who has to

431
00:20:59,782 --> 00:21:02,382
Speaker 1: sort of have a public face to what they do.

432
00:21:03,502 --> 00:21:06,302
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we were talking about

433
00:21:06,621 --> 00:21:10,821
Speaker 1: is anxiety. And I have anxiety. I've been medicated for

434
00:21:10,861 --> 00:21:14,462
Speaker 1: it for a long time, but that feeling of stress

435
00:21:14,661 --> 00:21:18,341
Speaker 1: or tension or even nerves. I was telling her how

436
00:21:18,381 --> 00:21:21,661
Speaker 1: I've kind of lost my mojo a bit with podcasting,

437
00:21:21,942 --> 00:21:24,901
Speaker 1: and how I've felt like a bit nervous sometimes behind

438
00:21:24,901 --> 00:21:27,581
Speaker 1: the microphone, and things that I haven't experienced for a

439
00:21:27,621 --> 00:21:30,302
Speaker 1: long time. She gave me two really great tricks for

440
00:21:30,341 --> 00:21:32,622
Speaker 1: when you're feeling anxious or nervous or.

441
00:21:32,581 --> 00:21:35,901
Speaker 3: Stressed, which appear in everyone's life if you're doing a

442
00:21:35,942 --> 00:21:39,222
Speaker 3: meeting or if you're putting your hand up or.

443
00:21:38,901 --> 00:21:41,141
Speaker 1: Having to give a speech, or having to go and

444
00:21:41,141 --> 00:21:44,061
Speaker 1: have a conversation with your boss or whatever it is.

445
00:21:45,061 --> 00:21:48,621
Speaker 1: So both of them are things that affect your body

446
00:21:48,661 --> 00:21:51,262
Speaker 1: without you even realizing it. And one is about breathing

447
00:21:51,302 --> 00:21:52,902
Speaker 1: and one is about stretching. And that might seem really,

448
00:21:52,901 --> 00:21:55,822
Speaker 1: really boring because I know there's lots of box breathing

449
00:21:55,861 --> 00:21:58,022
Speaker 1: techniques and all these different techniques, and she said, the

450
00:21:58,061 --> 00:22:01,341
Speaker 1: only technique that she's ever been able to retain is

451
00:22:01,381 --> 00:22:05,502
Speaker 1: this particular one. She basically said, the principle behind this,

452
00:22:05,821 --> 00:22:08,422
Speaker 1: biochemically in your body is the same. We have two

453
00:22:08,422 --> 00:22:13,302
Speaker 1: different nervous systems going. The first is the parasympathetic nervous system,

454
00:22:13,302 --> 00:22:17,262
Speaker 1: which is about rest and digest and that's activated when

455
00:22:17,821 --> 00:22:22,622
Speaker 1: we exhale or when we stretch, because when you think

456
00:22:22,661 --> 00:22:25,262
Speaker 1: about it, you can't be in fight or flight mode,

457
00:22:25,302 --> 00:22:28,742
Speaker 1: which is our sympathetic nervous system, which gets us ready

458
00:22:28,782 --> 00:22:32,702
Speaker 1: to act or do something or face a challenge when

459
00:22:32,742 --> 00:22:35,941
Speaker 1: you are stretching, when your muscles are stretched out, or

460
00:22:35,982 --> 00:22:39,022
Speaker 1: when you're breathing out. So when you breathe in, that

461
00:22:39,101 --> 00:22:42,702
Speaker 1: activates our sympathetic nervous system, which is fight or flight.

462
00:22:43,302 --> 00:22:46,302
Speaker 1: And when you breathe out. That's why when you nervous

463
00:22:46,621 --> 00:22:47,782
Speaker 1: start breathing.

464
00:22:47,661 --> 00:22:49,901
Speaker 3: Faster and quite shallow and you start going.

465
00:22:50,422 --> 00:22:52,422
Speaker 1: So when you breathe out, you've got to breathe out.

466
00:22:52,581 --> 00:22:54,221
Speaker 1: You try to make a sound like this.

467
00:23:02,502 --> 00:23:04,542
Speaker 3: It's like ASMR, except I hate it.

468
00:23:04,742 --> 00:23:06,661
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, you can make it a bit quiet. You

469
00:23:06,702 --> 00:23:08,101
Speaker 1: don't have to make a sound. But the idea is

470
00:23:08,101 --> 00:23:11,142
Speaker 1: that you breathe out until like there's literally nothing left

471
00:23:11,141 --> 00:23:14,181
Speaker 1: that you're so squished, and then your lungs are a vacuum,

472
00:23:14,262 --> 00:23:15,861
Speaker 1: so you don't need to even breathe in. You just

473
00:23:15,982 --> 00:23:18,462
Speaker 1: release it fills up, You'll fill up a little bit,

474
00:23:18,661 --> 00:23:20,622
Speaker 1: and then you do it again, so you really focus

475
00:23:20,661 --> 00:23:23,222
Speaker 1: on the exhale. Now, you can do this while you're driving.

476
00:23:23,222 --> 00:23:24,701
Speaker 1: You can do this in a meeting. You don't have

477
00:23:24,742 --> 00:23:28,181
Speaker 1: to make the sound, but if you're alone that helps.

478
00:23:28,262 --> 00:23:29,341
Speaker 3: You can do it on stage.

479
00:23:29,502 --> 00:23:31,141
Speaker 1: You can do it on stage. You can do it

480
00:23:31,222 --> 00:23:33,782
Speaker 1: right before you go on stage. Right. So that's the

481
00:23:33,782 --> 00:23:36,222
Speaker 1: first one. The second one is this idea of stretching,

482
00:23:36,222 --> 00:23:39,141
Speaker 1: because it's the same when your shoulders are up and

483
00:23:39,222 --> 00:23:43,822
Speaker 1: your tents, that means your sympathetic nervous system is activated.

484
00:23:43,901 --> 00:23:45,821
Speaker 1: You are in fight or flight and you're ready to

485
00:23:45,861 --> 00:23:49,221
Speaker 1: respond to challenges and stress. So what that does is

486
00:23:49,222 --> 00:23:53,381
Speaker 1: it releases cortisol and adrenaline. Same when you're inhaling a

487
00:23:53,422 --> 00:23:56,702
Speaker 1: lot to try and calm themselves down, people will often

488
00:23:56,742 --> 00:23:59,022
Speaker 1: take a deep breath, but it's actually the opposite that

489
00:23:59,061 --> 00:24:01,381
Speaker 1: you should be doing. Should be doing a big exhale.

490
00:24:01,422 --> 00:24:03,581
Speaker 1: So what's a stretch that you should be any stretch like,

491
00:24:03,621 --> 00:24:06,262
Speaker 1: there's not a special stretch, just anything. When your muscles

492
00:24:06,702 --> 00:24:10,381
Speaker 1: are stretched out, your body knows that your muscles are.

493
00:24:10,262 --> 00:24:12,061
Speaker 3: Stretched out, You're saying I'm safe.

494
00:24:12,141 --> 00:24:14,901
Speaker 1: You're saying I'm safe. You're saying I can't be about

495
00:24:14,901 --> 00:24:19,142
Speaker 1: to run or fight because I'm stretching right. So it's

496
00:24:19,182 --> 00:24:22,861
Speaker 1: one of those tricks that circumvents all the business in

497
00:24:22,901 --> 00:24:25,581
Speaker 1: your brain and just gives a signal straight to your body.

498
00:24:26,182 --> 00:24:28,141
Speaker 1: And I've been using it this week. I wanted to

499
00:24:28,141 --> 00:24:30,662
Speaker 1: make sure it worked before I shared it with everyone,

500
00:24:30,901 --> 00:24:32,662
Speaker 1: and it really does.

501
00:24:33,182 --> 00:24:35,101
Speaker 3: The breathing thing. If I can find a minute, because

502
00:24:35,141 --> 00:24:37,101
Speaker 3: I find that in the car is often the only

503
00:24:37,302 --> 00:24:39,022
Speaker 3: kind of alone time I get. If I can take

504
00:24:39,061 --> 00:24:40,701
Speaker 3: a minute before I get out and just do the

505
00:24:40,742 --> 00:24:43,381
Speaker 3: breathing thing, let's change my life. Makes me think so

506
00:24:43,502 --> 00:24:46,462
Speaker 3: much clearer. I remember being told you as well. Yeah,

507
00:24:46,462 --> 00:24:49,141
Speaker 3: and I've been told that my big fear is going blank.

508
00:24:49,222 --> 00:24:52,902
Speaker 3: We've talked about about this, whether it's on stage or whatever. Basically,

509
00:24:52,982 --> 00:24:55,461
Speaker 3: you won't go blank if you're breathing properly. It's like,

510
00:24:55,621 --> 00:24:58,262
Speaker 3: if you are properly doing that. When I've gone blank before,

511
00:24:58,262 --> 00:25:00,861
Speaker 3: it's because I've stopped breathing and it literally oxygen supply

512
00:25:01,061 --> 00:25:03,461
Speaker 3: cuts off and then your brain just goes book and

513
00:25:03,502 --> 00:25:06,661
Speaker 3: you can't concentrate. So that's been my one thing, and

514
00:25:06,702 --> 00:25:08,981
Speaker 3: I think it's just self fulfilling. It's like I tell myself, Oh,

515
00:25:08,982 --> 00:25:11,422
Speaker 3: when I'm breathing, okay, I'm fine, and then I am.

516
00:25:11,861 --> 00:25:15,422
Speaker 1: So let us try these two things if you're stressed

517
00:25:15,502 --> 00:25:18,661
Speaker 1: or nervous or feeling anxious in the moment, and let

518
00:25:18,742 --> 00:25:19,302
Speaker 1: us know how you.

519
00:25:19,262 --> 00:25:22,901
Speaker 3: Go after the break. The debate topic that had parents

520
00:25:23,022 --> 00:25:25,502
Speaker 3: very angrily calling the school, We're going to tell you

521
00:25:25,542 --> 00:25:28,382
Speaker 3: more about that story you might have missed in a moment.

522
00:25:28,621 --> 00:25:32,381
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

523
00:25:32,422 --> 00:25:36,462
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

524
00:25:36,502 --> 00:25:38,262
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears

525
00:25:38,502 --> 00:25:41,262
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

526
00:25:41,422 --> 00:25:43,061
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

527
00:25:48,022 --> 00:25:49,861
Speaker 3: There was a story you might have missed last week

528
00:25:50,061 --> 00:25:53,542
Speaker 3: that I have been busting to talk to you both about. Right,

529
00:25:53,621 --> 00:25:55,861
Speaker 3: it's very divisive and I feel like we're not going

530
00:25:55,942 --> 00:25:59,621
Speaker 3: to all agree. Here's what happened. Year nine, students in

531
00:25:59,661 --> 00:26:03,302
Speaker 3: South Australia were given a debate topic. Did either of

532
00:26:03,302 --> 00:26:05,941
Speaker 3: you do debating at school? No, Holly, you would have

533
00:26:05,942 --> 00:26:06,302
Speaker 3: been greater.

534
00:26:06,381 --> 00:26:08,022
Speaker 2: I didn't go to the kind of school where you

535
00:26:08,302 --> 00:26:09,382
Speaker 2: got to do things right.

536
00:26:10,141 --> 00:26:12,941
Speaker 3: In Australia, all the schools do like they offer it,

537
00:26:12,982 --> 00:26:15,382
Speaker 3: but only the uncle kids do it, which is why

538
00:26:15,462 --> 00:26:17,341
Speaker 3: I loved it. That's how I spent my Friday nights

539
00:26:17,341 --> 00:26:17,941
Speaker 3: doing my debating.

540
00:26:17,982 --> 00:26:19,622
Speaker 1: How about you, may I did a lot of debating,

541
00:26:19,661 --> 00:26:22,262
Speaker 1: but not in the formal sense. So I'm a part of.

542
00:26:22,262 --> 00:26:23,661
Speaker 3: A debate with your mom.

543
00:26:23,742 --> 00:26:25,621
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh, I did a lot of that.

544
00:26:27,101 --> 00:26:28,901
Speaker 2: I did a lot of debating why I should be

545
00:26:28,901 --> 00:26:31,061
Speaker 2: allowed to stay out later stuff like that.

546
00:26:31,141 --> 00:26:33,861
Speaker 3: Yes, well, I did debating, and there's three speakers and

547
00:26:33,901 --> 00:26:37,542
Speaker 3: it's very kind of formal anyway. The way it works

548
00:26:37,661 --> 00:26:40,061
Speaker 3: is that there's a topic and there's an affirmative team

549
00:26:40,101 --> 00:26:41,621
Speaker 3: and a negative team. You don't get to choose.

550
00:26:41,702 --> 00:26:42,942
Speaker 1: I know how debating work.

551
00:26:43,022 --> 00:26:43,982
Speaker 2: No, no, but not everybody.

552
00:26:44,141 --> 00:26:47,702
Speaker 3: Not everyone. Yeah, okay, okay, look at you debating. You're

553
00:26:47,702 --> 00:26:51,381
Speaker 3: getting angry exactly. Come on, take a deep debating. But

554
00:26:51,422 --> 00:26:52,742
Speaker 3: I know what a debate means.

555
00:26:53,302 --> 00:26:56,302
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, okay, I stretching.

556
00:26:57,982 --> 00:27:01,581
Speaker 3: The debate topic was that the tradwife movement is good

557
00:27:01,742 --> 00:27:04,022
Speaker 3: for women, right, so one team is going to be

558
00:27:04,061 --> 00:27:05,422
Speaker 3: given affirmative one.

559
00:27:05,621 --> 00:27:06,981
Speaker 5: I know this is a little bit to eat me up,

560
00:27:07,022 --> 00:27:12,101
Speaker 5: but so the way it works, a statement like the tradwife,

561
00:27:12,222 --> 00:27:14,022
Speaker 5: and then three of you have to argue, yes, the

562
00:27:14,061 --> 00:27:16,262
Speaker 5: tradewrite movement is good for women, and three of you

563
00:27:16,341 --> 00:27:18,941
Speaker 5: have to argue, no, the tradwife movement is bad for women.

564
00:27:18,982 --> 00:27:21,222
Speaker 2: And you don't get to choose. You don't get that

565
00:27:21,262 --> 00:27:22,742
Speaker 2: would annoy people a great deal.

566
00:27:22,861 --> 00:27:24,982
Speaker 1: It would How do the kids that are debating this

567
00:27:25,061 --> 00:27:26,502
Speaker 1: and are they boys or girls or mixed?

568
00:27:26,621 --> 00:27:30,422
Speaker 3: Year nine so I'm going to say fifteen, fourteen, fifteen

569
00:27:30,661 --> 00:27:31,862
Speaker 3: and mixed.

570
00:27:32,022 --> 00:27:32,341
Speaker 2: Okay.

571
00:27:33,341 --> 00:27:36,861
Speaker 3: Then came the backlash, so some on social media said

572
00:27:36,861 --> 00:27:39,742
Speaker 3: this would force women to argue for their own subjugation.

573
00:27:40,022 --> 00:27:42,621
Speaker 3: Ather called the not for profit the organization that does it.

574
00:27:42,702 --> 00:27:45,021
Speaker 3: Not for profit called them on the phone, yelled at

575
00:27:45,022 --> 00:27:48,941
Speaker 3: them and said this is ridiculous. This is sexist, which

576
00:27:49,141 --> 00:27:52,502
Speaker 3: doesn't feel in the spirit of debating. But anyway, debating

577
00:27:52,542 --> 00:27:55,621
Speaker 3: South Australia got a shock. They came out and said

578
00:27:55,782 --> 00:27:59,821
Speaker 3: that they were using the word tradwife as interchangeable with

579
00:27:59,901 --> 00:28:00,821
Speaker 3: a stay at home mother.

580
00:28:00,942 --> 00:28:04,382
Speaker 2: Well, that's their first mistake because anyone who is literate

581
00:28:04,422 --> 00:28:06,302
Speaker 2: in the world of tradwives, and I am way too

582
00:28:06,381 --> 00:28:09,222
Speaker 2: literate in the word of they are not the same thing.

583
00:28:09,542 --> 00:28:10,462
Speaker 1: Explain the difference.

584
00:28:10,742 --> 00:28:12,582
Speaker 2: A state at home mother, which is not a popular

585
00:28:12,702 --> 00:28:15,942
Speaker 2: term now anyway, is anyone whose main job is looking

586
00:28:15,982 --> 00:28:21,302
Speaker 2: after their kids. Tradwives are literally people whose identity is

587
00:28:21,422 --> 00:28:24,302
Speaker 2: very much tied up with a very traditional version of

588
00:28:24,302 --> 00:28:28,262
Speaker 2: homemaking that usually also involves making all your food from scratches,

589
00:28:28,302 --> 00:28:33,942
Speaker 2: showing any process food, maybe even conventional education a certain way.

590
00:28:34,462 --> 00:28:37,421
Speaker 2: Also that part of the tradwife thing, rightly or wrongly,

591
00:28:37,542 --> 00:28:41,782
Speaker 2: is that you are subjugated to your husband. The husband

592
00:28:41,942 --> 00:28:43,741
Speaker 2: is the head of the house. There is not a

593
00:28:43,822 --> 00:28:46,222
Speaker 2: tradwife model where the husband is not the head of

594
00:28:46,222 --> 00:28:48,102
Speaker 2: the house. So you also have to have a husband.

595
00:28:48,422 --> 00:28:50,302
Speaker 2: So a stay at home mum could be any kind

596
00:28:50,382 --> 00:28:53,262
Speaker 2: of family model, any kind of thing. A tradwife is

597
00:28:53,262 --> 00:28:54,741
Speaker 2: a very specific.

598
00:28:54,222 --> 00:28:56,182
Speaker 1: Thing, And you're right. I was being facetious about Megan,

599
00:28:56,222 --> 00:28:59,262
Speaker 1: because tradwives, the idea is you right, they don't earn money.

600
00:28:59,302 --> 00:29:02,262
Speaker 1: So it's all about very traditional gender roles, and whether

601
00:29:02,302 --> 00:29:04,942
Speaker 1: they do that on the internet or not, it's about

602
00:29:05,222 --> 00:29:06,542
Speaker 1: traditional gender roles.

603
00:29:06,622 --> 00:29:09,782
Speaker 3: So the Debating Association actually wrote to schools and said

604
00:29:10,102 --> 00:29:13,382
Speaker 3: what we meant was a traditional wife. It is not

605
00:29:13,422 --> 00:29:15,902
Speaker 3: about submission to a man inside the home. It's about

606
00:29:15,902 --> 00:29:17,622
Speaker 3: someone who stays at home and looks up to kids.

607
00:29:19,102 --> 00:29:24,982
Speaker 2: Maya, they feel like a baby wandering into a wood,

608
00:29:25,102 --> 00:29:27,462
Speaker 2: like I didn't know that I was going to tread

609
00:29:27,502 --> 00:29:30,382
Speaker 2: on a big spike and a bet money. It's like, guys,

610
00:29:30,782 --> 00:29:34,902
Speaker 2: I'm talking about trad wife with people getting up, I

611
00:29:34,942 --> 00:29:37,582
Speaker 2: will say those they were driving over the spikes.

612
00:29:37,622 --> 00:29:42,662
Speaker 3: About the process of debating, is that your first speaker

613
00:29:42,902 --> 00:29:44,262
Speaker 3: one of the first things you do, because there's a

614
00:29:44,262 --> 00:29:46,902
Speaker 3: whole there's a whole strategy, there's a whole process. First

615
00:29:46,902 --> 00:29:49,422
Speaker 3: thing you gotta do. Definition, you have to get up.

616
00:29:49,822 --> 00:29:52,501
Speaker 3: And the worst kind of debates are what we call

617
00:29:52,622 --> 00:29:55,021
Speaker 3: definitional debates. And that's when one team defines it as

618
00:29:55,062 --> 00:29:56,982
Speaker 3: one thing and the other defines it as something else.

619
00:29:57,022 --> 00:29:59,182
Speaker 1: Why is that a bad debate because you're not because.

620
00:29:58,982 --> 00:30:01,342
Speaker 3: You're not arguing the same thing. And often and we

621
00:30:01,462 --> 00:30:03,782
Speaker 3: call it. I used to adjudicating for debating as well,

622
00:30:03,942 --> 00:30:06,342
Speaker 3: we end up calling it. And even if debate, and

623
00:30:06,382 --> 00:30:08,302
Speaker 3: what we do is we say, even if you define

624
00:30:08,342 --> 00:30:10,661
Speaker 3: trad wife as blah, I'm going to start arguing on

625
00:30:10,702 --> 00:30:15,102
Speaker 3: your terms because otherwise, very unsatisfying, unproductive debate. If we're

626
00:30:15,142 --> 00:30:19,221
Speaker 3: just arguing about definitions, which I would say, shouldn't we

627
00:30:19,262 --> 00:30:22,542
Speaker 3: all be going back there because the definitional debate. I

628
00:30:22,661 --> 00:30:25,302
Speaker 3: don't think some people branding themselves as tradwife mean the

629
00:30:25,302 --> 00:30:26,542
Speaker 3: same thing as these tradewives.

630
00:30:26,582 --> 00:30:26,661
Speaker 1: Like.

631
00:30:26,942 --> 00:30:30,501
Speaker 3: Sitting down and debating the definition of tradwife is an interesting,

632
00:30:30,502 --> 00:30:31,542
Speaker 3: important process, isn't it.

633
00:30:31,622 --> 00:30:31,782
Speaker 5: Yeah?

634
00:30:31,822 --> 00:30:33,662
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. But the point here, or at least

635
00:30:33,782 --> 00:30:36,822
Speaker 2: as far as I see it, is that debating tradwives

636
00:30:36,862 --> 00:30:39,382
Speaker 2: is incredibly valid, right they are, just as we just

637
00:30:39,462 --> 00:30:42,782
Speaker 2: talked about this sort of girl boss, boss bitch archetype

638
00:30:42,822 --> 00:30:44,862
Speaker 2: that seems to be looming at the minute. Tradwife is

639
00:30:44,942 --> 00:30:47,302
Speaker 2: definitely another There is a lot of content out there

640
00:30:47,342 --> 00:30:50,902
Speaker 2: about that. It is very much an aspirational model of

641
00:30:50,942 --> 00:30:54,342
Speaker 2: womanhood that's out there. It is not the same as

642
00:30:54,622 --> 00:30:56,262
Speaker 2: I don't have a paying job at the minute and

643
00:30:56,302 --> 00:30:57,822
Speaker 2: I'm looking after kids. And the thing is is I

644
00:30:57,822 --> 00:30:59,382
Speaker 2: think they thought it was, but it's not. And so

645
00:30:59,462 --> 00:31:01,702
Speaker 2: I know that's a definitional debate, but that was their

646
00:31:01,702 --> 00:31:02,542
Speaker 2: first mistake.

647
00:31:02,702 --> 00:31:05,102
Speaker 3: Maya, would you call the school and make a law comment.

648
00:31:05,222 --> 00:31:07,022
Speaker 1: It was funny because when you first told us about

649
00:31:07,022 --> 00:31:09,982
Speaker 1: this this morning in the planning meeting, I was like, Oh,

650
00:31:10,062 --> 00:31:12,582
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. That's just what a debate is. Sometimes you

651
00:31:12,622 --> 00:31:15,661
Speaker 1: have to argue things you don't it. Yeah, argue for

652
00:31:15,702 --> 00:31:17,342
Speaker 1: things that you don't agree with. That's the whole point.

653
00:31:17,382 --> 00:31:19,302
Speaker 1: And that's the skill of being a debater, that you

654
00:31:19,342 --> 00:31:21,822
Speaker 1: have to be able to debate something regardless of what

655
00:31:21,862 --> 00:31:26,382
Speaker 1: you personally believe. But then I read a little bit more.

656
00:31:26,462 --> 00:31:29,702
Speaker 1: I read some commentary from Rebecca Sparrow who published an

657
00:31:29,702 --> 00:31:33,262
Speaker 1: email on her Facebook page. She's like a writes a

658
00:31:33,302 --> 00:31:36,062
Speaker 1: lot about teen girls and school and speaks in schools

659
00:31:36,102 --> 00:31:40,142
Speaker 1: about friendship and other things. And this email from someone

660
00:31:40,142 --> 00:31:42,702
Speaker 1: who was objecting to it basically said, at a time

661
00:31:42,742 --> 00:31:45,862
Speaker 1: when there is the Andrew Tait of it all, and

662
00:31:45,902 --> 00:31:49,942
Speaker 1: there are some pretty controversial, troubling ideas we saw in adolescence.

663
00:31:50,502 --> 00:31:55,062
Speaker 1: If you look at that as the backdrop here, teachers, schools, parents,

664
00:31:55,262 --> 00:32:00,102
Speaker 1: girls and boys are all having a lot of trouble

665
00:32:00,661 --> 00:32:03,822
Speaker 1: working with these issues, right about girls and boys. So

666
00:32:03,942 --> 00:32:08,622
Speaker 1: to overlay that on it, it almost feels like during

667
00:32:08,661 --> 00:32:12,102
Speaker 1: the time of the marriage equality debate, having a debate

668
00:32:12,262 --> 00:32:16,662
Speaker 1: about whether same sex marriage should be allowed or whether

669
00:32:16,742 --> 00:32:20,941
Speaker 1: same sex marriage is bad for the world, it feels very,

670
00:32:21,262 --> 00:32:25,022
Speaker 1: very fraught in a way that is kind of beyond

671
00:32:25,062 --> 00:32:25,422
Speaker 1: an action.

672
00:32:25,982 --> 00:32:27,542
Speaker 2: That's such an interesting.

673
00:32:27,142 --> 00:32:30,142
Speaker 3: Thing, isn't that the point of debating though, to be

674
00:32:30,222 --> 00:32:32,982
Speaker 3: fraud I mean, we would debate things about like lowering

675
00:32:33,022 --> 00:32:35,982
Speaker 3: the voting age or whatever, but then climate change or

676
00:32:36,102 --> 00:32:40,022
Speaker 3: smoking or vegetarianism. In order to know what you think

677
00:32:40,062 --> 00:32:43,222
Speaker 3: about something, and this is a philosophical principle, you need

678
00:32:43,262 --> 00:32:44,942
Speaker 3: to be able to put words around the other side.

679
00:32:45,022 --> 00:32:45,222
Speaker 6: Right.

680
00:32:45,502 --> 00:32:47,382
Speaker 3: And let's imagine too, that you have a fifteen or

681
00:32:47,382 --> 00:32:49,302
Speaker 3: a sixteen year old boy who is like our boy

682
00:32:49,302 --> 00:32:52,582
Speaker 3: from adolescence, right, and he has those traditional ideas. What

683
00:32:52,742 --> 00:32:56,502
Speaker 3: if he gets the negative and that boy has to

684
00:32:56,542 --> 00:32:58,582
Speaker 3: stand up and argue that being a tried wife isn't

685
00:32:58,582 --> 00:33:01,022
Speaker 3: good for women, And that's an exercise for him to

686
00:33:01,062 --> 00:33:03,622
Speaker 3: consider the other side, and they have to listen to it.

687
00:33:03,622 --> 00:33:06,181
Speaker 1: Except he won't. This is what we're learning that people

688
00:33:06,222 --> 00:33:09,062
Speaker 1: tend to screen out things they don't agree with and

689
00:33:09,702 --> 00:33:11,142
Speaker 1: into things they do agree with.

690
00:33:11,542 --> 00:33:13,181
Speaker 3: Well, that's what they do on social media. But the

691
00:33:13,182 --> 00:33:15,662
Speaker 3: whole point of a debate is that you actually put

692
00:33:15,661 --> 00:33:18,062
Speaker 3: everything on the table and the rules of a debate,

693
00:33:18,102 --> 00:33:21,382
Speaker 3: which don't exist on bloody TikTok and on most podcasts

694
00:33:21,422 --> 00:33:25,022
Speaker 3: I listen to is that you go, Okay, these are

695
00:33:25,102 --> 00:33:28,102
Speaker 3: my arguments, this is my evidence. I'm going to refute

696
00:33:28,102 --> 00:33:29,622
Speaker 3: what you said, and I'm not going to bring up

697
00:33:29,622 --> 00:33:32,022
Speaker 3: anything personal. I'm going to just talk about the facts

698
00:33:32,062 --> 00:33:34,062
Speaker 3: and you come to a conclusion. And I think that

699
00:33:34,622 --> 00:33:36,661
Speaker 3: often some middle ground can be found.

700
00:33:36,742 --> 00:33:41,022
Speaker 2: So I respect that, and I entirely agree that any

701
00:33:41,382 --> 00:33:45,542
Speaker 2: strongly held opinion that you hold, being literate in the

702
00:33:45,582 --> 00:33:48,822
Speaker 2: opposition to it is essential, right, I one hundred percent agree,

703
00:33:48,862 --> 00:33:50,702
Speaker 2: and I think it's one of the things that we've

704
00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:54,182
Speaker 2: lost in public debate. Certainly not the first person say that. However,

705
00:33:54,542 --> 00:33:56,941
Speaker 2: I also very much can see what me is saying,

706
00:33:56,982 --> 00:33:59,822
Speaker 2: because one of the things that's always troubled me about

707
00:33:59,862 --> 00:34:03,142
Speaker 2: debates is that just because you can mount a good

708
00:34:03,222 --> 00:34:05,342
Speaker 2: argument doesn't make you right, you know what I mean, Like,

709
00:34:05,862 --> 00:34:09,542
Speaker 2: there is no argument in the world that would convey

710
00:34:09,862 --> 00:34:12,662
Speaker 2: me of some things just because you are really smart

711
00:34:12,661 --> 00:34:15,182
Speaker 2: and really clever and you've cherry picked the right facts

712
00:34:15,222 --> 00:34:18,741
Speaker 2: and you've made it laugh. No, no, it doesn't mean

713
00:34:18,741 --> 00:34:21,582
Speaker 2: you don't debate it. But the problem with presenting debating

714
00:34:21,661 --> 00:34:25,022
Speaker 2: as a competition, where always one size wins and one

715
00:34:25,062 --> 00:34:28,741
Speaker 2: side loses is I don't think that proves that the

716
00:34:28,862 --> 00:34:32,622
Speaker 2: argument was wrong. So I could never just because of

717
00:34:32,661 --> 00:34:36,181
Speaker 2: my own personal prejudices. Probably I would love to be

718
00:34:36,181 --> 00:34:39,102
Speaker 2: in a debate about trad wives, but there isn't actually

719
00:34:39,142 --> 00:34:41,181
Speaker 2: an argument in the world that would make me think

720
00:34:41,221 --> 00:34:43,062
Speaker 2: that it was a wonderful thing for my daughter to

721
00:34:43,062 --> 00:34:43,821
Speaker 2: be a tradwife.

722
00:34:44,062 --> 00:34:48,142
Speaker 1: What I mean Jesse playing it out. So the side

723
00:34:48,142 --> 00:34:51,461
Speaker 1: that has to argue that trad wives make the world

724
00:34:51,502 --> 00:34:54,622
Speaker 1: better and that subjugating women and traditional gender roles are

725
00:34:54,661 --> 00:34:58,022
Speaker 1: better for the world, they're just better debaters and they

726
00:34:58,022 --> 00:35:01,582
Speaker 1: win exactly. So what message And I know what you're saying,

727
00:35:01,902 --> 00:35:03,781
Speaker 1: And again I see both sides, which is why I'm

728
00:35:03,781 --> 00:35:07,142
Speaker 1: probably a terrible debater. What message does that send? Because

729
00:35:07,142 --> 00:35:10,062
Speaker 1: you're right, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's true. But

730
00:35:10,102 --> 00:35:11,901
Speaker 1: when you're talking about kids.

731
00:35:12,062 --> 00:35:14,502
Speaker 2: And the boys at school, they're saying to the girls

732
00:35:14,502 --> 00:35:18,262
Speaker 2: at school like, tidwives are great, we want that debate.

733
00:35:18,302 --> 00:35:19,861
Speaker 2: You guys don't know what you're talking about. Like, I

734
00:35:19,902 --> 00:35:22,181
Speaker 2: can see why I'm not saying they shouldn't debate. I

735
00:35:22,221 --> 00:35:24,261
Speaker 2: don't think anything should be off the table as such,

736
00:35:24,502 --> 00:35:27,822
Speaker 2: but I can see why a school setting with boys

737
00:35:27,862 --> 00:35:30,142
Speaker 2: and girls of that age, where as me has already

738
00:35:30,142 --> 00:35:34,782
Speaker 2: pointed out, relations are quite fraught, right, don't really want

739
00:35:34,822 --> 00:35:38,301
Speaker 2: to bring that into their world. I can understand that,

740
00:35:38,382 --> 00:35:43,062
Speaker 2: even though it's really interesting, because I can see that philosophically,

741
00:35:43,701 --> 00:35:46,741
Speaker 2: losing the art of debating is a terrible thing. But

742
00:35:46,862 --> 00:35:49,901
Speaker 2: I also think that presenting it as a purely competitive

743
00:35:50,022 --> 00:35:54,421
Speaker 2: sport almost and dealing with really big life and death

744
00:35:54,462 --> 00:35:57,302
Speaker 2: cultural issues is not great for a bunch of fourteen

745
00:35:57,382 --> 00:35:58,462
Speaker 2: year olds to live on TikTok.

746
00:35:58,661 --> 00:36:01,341
Speaker 3: I don't think it is life or death cultural. I

747
00:36:01,382 --> 00:36:02,622
Speaker 3: think that there are a lot of things that are

748
00:36:02,661 --> 00:36:04,382
Speaker 3: currently in the zeitgeist that I would say that is

749
00:36:04,382 --> 00:36:07,902
Speaker 3: not for a unite debate, like absolutely, but this one.

750
00:36:08,181 --> 00:36:10,582
Speaker 3: If we assume that this is in their world anyway,

751
00:36:11,342 --> 00:36:15,182
Speaker 3: that they have to define it, They have to grapple

752
00:36:15,221 --> 00:36:19,901
Speaker 3: with it, they have to deal with the facts, they

753
00:36:19,982 --> 00:36:23,221
Speaker 3: have to argue whichever way they want to say. It's

754
00:36:23,261 --> 00:36:25,021
Speaker 3: good for women or it's bad for women. When someone

755
00:36:25,022 --> 00:36:27,381
Speaker 3: wins a debate, it is not because the adjudicator thinks

756
00:36:27,382 --> 00:36:29,782
Speaker 3: they were right. It's because of how they fashion the argument.

757
00:36:29,862 --> 00:36:32,542
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly so, but it will be interpreted as that

758
00:36:32,582 --> 00:36:33,382
Speaker 2: they were right.

759
00:36:33,502 --> 00:36:34,142
Speaker 1: I'm not sure.

760
00:36:34,181 --> 00:36:36,542
Speaker 3: I think that you want to keep these kids engaged

761
00:36:36,542 --> 00:36:38,741
Speaker 3: in these topics, right, and a lot of them can

762
00:36:38,781 --> 00:36:44,301
Speaker 3: be quite boring and stale, and so I just think

763
00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:47,661
Speaker 3: that to me, it is more about the process of

764
00:36:47,701 --> 00:36:50,902
Speaker 3: the debate, and I think that both sides have lost

765
00:36:51,022 --> 00:36:53,821
Speaker 3: that entirely. And it might be controversial and it might

766
00:36:53,822 --> 00:36:56,502
Speaker 3: make for some awkward moments, but at least they are

767
00:36:56,502 --> 00:37:00,821
Speaker 3: going with like principled argumentation that isn't you're a girl

768
00:37:00,862 --> 00:37:02,102
Speaker 3: and you belong in the kitchen.

769
00:37:01,862 --> 00:37:05,501
Speaker 1: But civil discourse trying to model to kids.

770
00:37:05,622 --> 00:37:07,341
Speaker 2: And I do agree with all of that, and I

771
00:37:07,342 --> 00:37:09,901
Speaker 2: think I misspoke before when I said life or death issue,

772
00:37:09,902 --> 00:37:12,102
Speaker 2: because you're right, this isn't necessarily But I think the

773
00:37:12,181 --> 00:37:16,102
Speaker 2: reason why it takes me there is because it troubles

774
00:37:16,142 --> 00:37:19,661
Speaker 2: me a lot that in the world of a fourteen

775
00:37:19,741 --> 00:37:22,582
Speaker 2: fifteen year old girl, and obviously I have skin in

776
00:37:22,622 --> 00:37:26,582
Speaker 2: this game, there is still some kind of live debate

777
00:37:26,661 --> 00:37:29,382
Speaker 2: out there about whether or not she should be allowed

778
00:37:29,862 --> 00:37:33,382
Speaker 2: to have autonomy over her choices, and whether or not

779
00:37:33,422 --> 00:37:35,902
Speaker 2: she makes money, and whether or not her gender should

780
00:37:35,902 --> 00:37:39,422
Speaker 2: define what she does seem upsets me a lot. So

781
00:37:39,502 --> 00:37:41,861
Speaker 2: that's probably why I get Mamura and the thing is

782
00:37:41,862 --> 00:37:46,302
Speaker 2: is in theory in a lovely theoretical sense. It's great

783
00:37:46,302 --> 00:37:49,221
Speaker 2: to debate that, but in the rough and tumble of

784
00:37:49,261 --> 00:37:52,381
Speaker 2: a high school, in lots of ways, I agree with you, Jesse,

785
00:37:52,462 --> 00:37:54,422
Speaker 2: but I think that the parents who were calling and

786
00:37:54,462 --> 00:37:57,582
Speaker 2: the people who were upset, I also can see why

787
00:37:57,701 --> 00:38:00,982
Speaker 2: because I don't think I would love it if my

788
00:38:01,102 --> 00:38:04,301
Speaker 2: daughter was coming home and saying, you know, we were

789
00:38:04,302 --> 00:38:06,062
Speaker 2: on the women should be able to live however they

790
00:38:06,062 --> 00:38:08,741
Speaker 2: want to live side, and we lost and now we'll

791
00:38:08,741 --> 00:38:11,382
Speaker 2: be you know what I mean? Like I just yes, tricking.

792
00:38:11,822 --> 00:38:15,142
Speaker 1: It's one to really chew over out louders. I'm fascinated

793
00:38:15,181 --> 00:38:18,422
Speaker 1: to know what you think. I keep flicking around and around.

794
00:38:18,582 --> 00:38:20,942
Speaker 1: You can tell who's the debate here because Holly and

795
00:38:20,942 --> 00:38:22,422
Speaker 1: I like but on the other hand, But on the

796
00:38:22,422 --> 00:38:23,982
Speaker 1: other hand, we're a very gray area.

797
00:38:25,701 --> 00:38:28,102
Speaker 2: Who remembers a conversation we had a couple of weeks

798
00:38:28,142 --> 00:38:29,302
Speaker 2: ago about Etsy Witches.

799
00:38:29,622 --> 00:38:31,661
Speaker 3: I do I don't think this one over here was.

800
00:38:31,822 --> 00:38:34,102
Speaker 1: That I wasn't here, but I listened to it was funny.

801
00:38:33,902 --> 00:38:37,981
Speaker 2: Quick refresher. Apparently, despite cost of living pressures, et cetera,

802
00:38:38,102 --> 00:38:40,422
Speaker 2: quite a lot of people are paying money for witches

803
00:38:40,502 --> 00:38:44,502
Speaker 2: on Etsy to solve their problems. Highly reviewed lift curses,

804
00:38:44,902 --> 00:38:46,582
Speaker 2: cast attraction spells, etc.

805
00:38:47,022 --> 00:38:48,821
Speaker 1: I also love that it's on Etsy. It's not on

806
00:38:48,862 --> 00:38:52,102
Speaker 1: air Tasker. No, it's not even on Google. It's on Etsy,

807
00:38:52,142 --> 00:38:54,661
Speaker 1: which is like where you go to buy craft home

808
00:38:54,741 --> 00:38:55,582
Speaker 1: making crafts.

809
00:38:55,822 --> 00:38:58,102
Speaker 2: So Etsy Witch is now another another thing we can

810
00:38:58,181 --> 00:39:01,022
Speaker 2: choose from the menu of life. Problem is you can't

811
00:39:01,062 --> 00:39:05,582
Speaker 2: always control your witch. Please listen to this message from

812
00:39:05,622 --> 00:39:09,142
Speaker 2: a young man called Stephen Stetks on TikTok about a

813
00:39:09,181 --> 00:39:11,781
Speaker 2: district pressing development in which.

814
00:39:11,542 --> 00:39:14,742
Speaker 6: World I think I'm going to cry. My Etsy witch

815
00:39:14,781 --> 00:39:18,622
Speaker 6: has died. I have no one to talk to about this,

816
00:39:18,822 --> 00:39:23,661
Speaker 6: but I hired this lady from etsay to remove this

817
00:39:23,902 --> 00:39:26,942
Speaker 6: ancient generational curse anyway, and she said it would take

818
00:39:26,982 --> 00:39:30,301
Speaker 6: about three weeks to kick him. It's been about a month,

819
00:39:30,342 --> 00:39:32,221
Speaker 6: so I've not heard anything. So I messaged her the

820
00:39:32,261 --> 00:39:36,102
Speaker 6: other day just to say, hey, when is a spell complete?

821
00:39:36,181 --> 00:39:39,742
Speaker 6: When can I expect to receive this slow of energy?

822
00:39:40,502 --> 00:39:43,181
Speaker 6: And her daughter just messaged me back tonight to say

823
00:39:43,221 --> 00:39:48,181
Speaker 6: her mum had died, which is so sad. But at

824
00:39:48,181 --> 00:39:50,261
Speaker 6: the same time, does anyone know if this means this

825
00:39:50,382 --> 00:39:53,701
Speaker 6: spell is still active. Like I'm not sure if the

826
00:39:54,422 --> 00:39:57,622
Speaker 6: spell dies with the witch or what happens, and I

827
00:39:57,622 --> 00:39:58,422
Speaker 6: don't want to ask.

828
00:40:00,661 --> 00:40:03,941
Speaker 1: I think the spell is in trine. I think she's

829
00:40:04,142 --> 00:40:07,381
Speaker 1: cast hopefully she cast it before she died, and very sad.

830
00:40:07,422 --> 00:40:08,981
Speaker 1: We're not laughing about the fact that she died.

831
00:40:09,062 --> 00:40:09,461
Speaker 2: Very sad.

832
00:40:09,582 --> 00:40:12,741
Speaker 1: It's never happy when summer dies. But I think it's

833
00:40:12,781 --> 00:40:15,382
Speaker 1: out there. I think it just maybe has to settle.

834
00:40:15,502 --> 00:40:17,301
Speaker 1: I don't know if she has to close it. What

835
00:40:17,342 --> 00:40:18,062
Speaker 1: the hell do I know?

836
00:40:18,302 --> 00:40:21,422
Speaker 3: My auntsy witch died is the most uniquely twenty twenty

837
00:40:21,422 --> 00:40:22,102
Speaker 3: five sentence.

838
00:40:22,382 --> 00:40:23,902
Speaker 1: I imagine saying that to your grandmother.

839
00:40:24,062 --> 00:40:26,341
Speaker 2: I know, I know, And also I just feel like

840
00:40:26,422 --> 00:40:28,582
Speaker 2: Stephen and he has a lovely Scottish accent. But it's

841
00:40:28,582 --> 00:40:31,302
Speaker 2: like Stephen, this was an inside problem.

842
00:40:32,462 --> 00:40:35,542
Speaker 1: Tell everybody no, I think it's a public service because

843
00:40:35,582 --> 00:40:39,781
Speaker 1: now everyone has to consider that when they're engaging with

844
00:40:39,822 --> 00:40:40,262
Speaker 1: an Etsy.

845
00:40:40,261 --> 00:40:41,982
Speaker 3: Wait, you think you can ask for your money back?

846
00:40:42,542 --> 00:40:42,701
Speaker 1: Oh?

847
00:40:42,942 --> 00:40:43,022
Speaker 6: What?

848
00:40:43,942 --> 00:40:44,462
Speaker 1: No?

849
00:40:44,462 --> 00:40:45,062
Speaker 3: No, no, no no.

850
00:40:45,221 --> 00:40:47,381
Speaker 2: From this stage, this is the kind of etiquette we

851
00:40:47,382 --> 00:40:48,381
Speaker 2: need to here.

852
00:40:49,302 --> 00:40:50,822
Speaker 3: When can you get a refund from your auntsy?

853
00:40:50,862 --> 00:40:54,462
Speaker 2: Wear out loudest, That is all we have time for today?

854
00:40:54,502 --> 00:40:56,862
Speaker 2: Are massive thank you to all of you for listening

855
00:40:56,862 --> 00:40:59,301
Speaker 2: to our show, and our wonderful team for putting this

856
00:40:59,422 --> 00:41:02,181
Speaker 2: show together. I would also like to remind you that

857
00:41:02,181 --> 00:41:05,022
Speaker 2: if you're watching us and you can notice how glorious

858
00:41:05,181 --> 00:41:06,102
Speaker 2: our backdrop is.

859
00:41:06,142 --> 00:41:07,982
Speaker 1: Or you've seen us in social and you've seen.

860
00:41:07,862 --> 00:41:10,781
Speaker 2: Us on socials, our student a stale by furniture from

861
00:41:10,822 --> 00:41:12,862
Speaker 2: Fenton and Fenton and you can find out more about

862
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Speaker 2: that at Fenton and Fenton dot com dot.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back in your ears tomorrow, but first, if.

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00:41:17,221 --> 00:41:20,542
Speaker 3: You're looking for something else to listen to. On yesterday's

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Speaker 3: subscriber episode, Holly m and I shared the books that

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00:41:25,622 --> 00:41:27,661
Speaker 3: changed our lives? May or do you have anything you

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Speaker 3: want to add?

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Speaker 1: I was new vitecause I can't read.

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00:41:30,142 --> 00:41:33,821
Speaker 3: No exactly right exactly, So if you're looking for something

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00:41:33,862 --> 00:41:36,821
Speaker 3: to read right now, or if it started this fantastic

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00:41:36,822 --> 00:41:39,502
Speaker 3: conversation the mum Mind Facebook group, we should share some

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00:41:39,502 --> 00:41:41,542
Speaker 3: of them on Instagram, but go to the Outlouders Facebook

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00:41:41,542 --> 00:41:43,901
Speaker 3: group and there is a thread I was trawling through

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00:41:43,982 --> 00:41:46,941
Speaker 3: last night of everyone sharing the book that changed their life,

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00:41:47,062 --> 00:41:49,462
Speaker 3: and it's it's lovely. That's what you need sometimes, so

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00:41:49,542 --> 00:41:51,701
Speaker 3: they are Jane Austen no, no, no, A lot of

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00:41:51,781 --> 00:41:55,982
Speaker 3: Marcus Zuzak. They're great recommendations. A link, as always, will

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00:41:55,982 --> 00:41:59,302
Speaker 3: be in the show notes. Bye bye bye.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to any mum and Mia subscribers listening. If

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00:42:03,181 --> 00:42:05,782
Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well,

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00:42:05,982 --> 00:42:08,381
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way

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00:42:08,422 --> 00:42:10,462
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a think in the episode

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Speaker 1: description

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Speaker 2: M