WEBVTT - If I'm So Beautiful, Prove It 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.887 that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to 0:00:23.927 --> 0:00:27.167 Mama Mia out Loud and to our Friday's show where 0:00:27.207 --> 0:00:29.047 we take a bit of a break from the news 0:00:29.047 --> 0:00:33.487 cycle and breath out Today. Friends, is Friday, the seventh 0:00:33.527 --> 0:00:37.567 of June. I'm Holly Wainwright, And if you missed Monday's show, 0:00:37.607 --> 0:00:41.287 you'll miss us talking about why it really is finally 0:00:41.327 --> 0:00:45.327 time to cancel Brad Pitt And this one got quite 0:00:45.327 --> 0:00:48.647 a lot of opinions going. Should we raise the age 0:00:48.647 --> 0:00:50.407 of social media access to sixty? 0:00:50.967 --> 0:00:54.447 I'm mea Friedman And on Wednesday we talked about rodent 0:00:54.527 --> 0:00:59.727 boyfriends and also the difference between female and male billionaires, 0:01:00.367 --> 0:01:02.247 and we also had a bit of a dispute about that. 0:01:02.527 --> 0:01:05.887 Listen to those episodes via a link in our show notes. 0:01:06.167 --> 0:01:09.127 And I'm Burnham. I'm filling in for Jesse again today. 0:01:09.327 --> 0:01:12.687 You can always hear me on this Bill Entertainment Daily pickhause. 0:01:13.247 --> 0:01:18.727 An on today's show, is Everybody Beautiful? A mass experiment 0:01:18.767 --> 0:01:21.687 in the MoMA Mea office certainly suggests that they don't 0:01:21.727 --> 0:01:25.407 feel it. Also thanks to watch and read and do 0:01:25.527 --> 0:01:29.047 this weekend, which include a very sweary puppet, a viral book, 0:01:29.327 --> 0:01:33.407 and a self helpy app. And Best and Worse, which 0:01:33.447 --> 0:01:37.567 include a very embarrassing partner wagging work and MEA's new boss, 0:01:37.607 --> 0:01:38.927 but first, Mia Friedman. 0:01:39.207 --> 0:01:42.087 In case you missed it, Independent MPs want to fine 0:01:42.207 --> 0:01:46.287 businesses twenty five thousand dollars if they don't accept cash 0:01:46.327 --> 0:01:49.327 from their customers in a bid to stop the move 0:01:49.567 --> 0:01:52.927 to going fully cashless. Except they're not going to pay 0:01:52.967 --> 0:01:55.767 that twenty five thousand dollar fine in cash would be 0:01:55.847 --> 0:01:59.727 my bet. Former National ZMP Andrew g on Monday introduced 0:01:59.767 --> 0:02:02.207 a private member's bill that would require businesses to offer 0:02:02.207 --> 0:02:05.087 cash as a form of payment. Some starts to make 0:02:05.127 --> 0:02:08.287 you feel smart. In two thousand and seven, about seventy 0:02:08.327 --> 0:02:10.927 percent of all trans actions were made with cash, but 0:02:11.007 --> 0:02:13.327 this is now fallen to thirteen percent. Wow. 0:02:13.447 --> 0:02:16.647 So thirteen percent of anything you buy or pay for 0:02:16.807 --> 0:02:17.167 is cash. 0:02:17.407 --> 0:02:20.367 Yeow. So banks and large retailers have been given until 0:02:20.367 --> 0:02:22.807 October by the Competition Watchdog to find a way to 0:02:22.967 --> 0:02:26.527 ensure the continued movement of cash around the country. I 0:02:26.607 --> 0:02:30.487 don't know why they need to, Like, can't you just 0:02:30.527 --> 0:02:32.287 get money out of an ATM, you don't need a 0:02:32.287 --> 0:02:36.087 credit card necessarily. Why do we need cash? Apart from 0:02:36.127 --> 0:02:39.247 buskers who I honestly feel so upset for the. 0:02:39.447 --> 0:02:41.087 Time of them have their tap on little thing. 0:02:41.167 --> 0:02:44.167 Now, yeah, that's true, some of them do have any 0:02:44.207 --> 0:02:45.607 I mean even at lemonade stands. 0:02:45.607 --> 0:02:48.127 Apparently, why do we need cash? Like, what's the reason 0:02:48.167 --> 0:02:49.447 for this? Why do they want it? 0:02:49.687 --> 0:02:52.087 The arguments in favor of having cash are that it 0:02:52.527 --> 0:02:56.007 is often favored by older people, people who don't want 0:02:56.007 --> 0:02:58.087 to keep their money in banks. They might want to 0:02:58.167 --> 0:03:00.327 keep it I don't know, under their bed or in 0:03:00.327 --> 0:03:04.087 their pocket. And also I can't remember the third thing. 0:03:04.127 --> 0:03:06.727 But no, it's about privacy. So some people don't feel 0:03:06.727 --> 0:03:09.727 comfortable with the level of surveillance that comes with paying 0:03:09.727 --> 0:03:13.287 for everything. To this day, I'm not saying that's true, but 0:03:13.327 --> 0:03:15.407 it's like, if you pay for everything with a card, 0:03:15.847 --> 0:03:18.927 then everything you do can be tracked, right, Whereas if 0:03:18.967 --> 0:03:20.847 you get money out of the bank and then you 0:03:20.887 --> 0:03:23.167 just spend that money, it can't be traced. That's the 0:03:23.207 --> 0:03:26.567 whole point of cash, and that's why that's used in 0:03:26.727 --> 0:03:28.807 more sinister ways. But like a lot of people are 0:03:28.887 --> 0:03:31.327 uncomfortable with the level of surveillance that comes with cash. Yeah, 0:03:31.527 --> 0:03:34.887 And the other reason is rural areas, places that don't 0:03:34.887 --> 0:03:37.287 always have such stable Internet connections all of that kind 0:03:37.287 --> 0:03:39.407 of stuff. They want people to still be able to 0:03:39.447 --> 0:03:41.087 operate in cash. It's very true. 0:03:41.127 --> 0:03:43.527 I mean, we saw what happened when there was optist 0:03:43.527 --> 0:03:47.127 blackout last year and people couldn't buy their coffee. It 0:03:47.167 --> 0:03:50.207 was devastating. No, but people often don't have cash. The 0:03:50.247 --> 0:03:53.527 only time I use cash now, I've realized, is when 0:03:53.527 --> 0:03:56.207 I go to my alterationist because she doesn't accept cards 0:03:57.047 --> 0:03:59.807 or any kind of FPOs, which is a nightmare. So 0:03:59.927 --> 0:04:02.167 literally the only time I go to the bank is 0:04:02.167 --> 0:04:04.007 when I have to get my clothes altered. 0:04:04.287 --> 0:04:07.607 I live in the regions obviously, and our local service 0:04:07.647 --> 0:04:11.247 station servo. I remember once their like digital stuff was 0:04:11.287 --> 0:04:13.647 down and I didn't have cash, so I couldn't get 0:04:13.647 --> 0:04:16.007 any petrol, and she said, always have a fifty in 0:04:16.047 --> 0:04:18.567 your wallet because and she was saying that joining the 0:04:18.607 --> 0:04:22.687 bushfires in our neighborhood, which was very badly affected by 0:04:22.687 --> 0:04:25.807 that terrible summer of bushfires, and all the services went out, 0:04:25.887 --> 0:04:28.527 all the internet services went out, and so many people 0:04:28.567 --> 0:04:30.807 who were trying to get away, would go to the 0:04:30.847 --> 0:04:34.327 servo wanted petrol, but they couldn't pay for it, and 0:04:34.367 --> 0:04:36.207 so she was saying, you know, they were asking can 0:04:36.247 --> 0:04:37.767 I just have it for free? And she was like, well, 0:04:37.767 --> 0:04:39.487 I can't just give you all that. 0:04:39.607 --> 0:04:41.807 That's really interesting and they say them so in case 0:04:41.847 --> 0:04:46.287 of emergency. Future terrorism will be about internet going down 0:04:46.687 --> 0:04:48.607 and then we won't be able to pay for anything. 0:04:48.607 --> 0:04:50.127 Do you even know what cash is? 0:04:50.527 --> 0:04:50.607 Not? 0:04:50.807 --> 0:04:54.047 Really? I haven't owned a wallet in probably ten years. 0:04:54.167 --> 0:04:56.287 I have never used cash. I remember one time, I 0:04:56.287 --> 0:04:59.207 think it was last year, where my card expired so 0:04:59.247 --> 0:05:02.287 it wasn't working, and I walked over to my mum's 0:05:02.327 --> 0:05:03.807 work because I was like, you need to give me 0:05:03.847 --> 0:05:05.527 your card and she was like, why didn't you just 0:05:05.607 --> 0:05:06.807 use cash? And I'm like, I don't know how to 0:05:06.847 --> 0:05:09.207 do that, Like I physically don't know who will take it, 0:05:09.487 --> 0:05:11.887 because I've never seen anyone take cash. Like I don't 0:05:11.927 --> 0:05:14.087 like own cash. I don't have any cash on me ever. 0:05:14.767 --> 0:05:17.847 I got really really irritated by my coworkers this week. 0:05:17.887 --> 0:05:20.567 Oh God, that's it. That's the segment. That's all I've 0:05:20.567 --> 0:05:25.247 got today, that's all we've got time for today. It 0:05:25.287 --> 0:05:28.207 was about a story that ran on Mama Mia written 0:05:28.207 --> 0:05:30.487 by Jemma Bath, who you might have heard on Monday's 0:05:30.487 --> 0:05:32.967 show filling in for our Jesse, and it was about 0:05:32.967 --> 0:05:36.127 something quite specific that I think is actually about something 0:05:36.207 --> 0:05:39.327 much broader. The story that Jemma wrote was called Dan 0:05:39.447 --> 0:05:42.367 photographed sixty women in the Mama Mea office. We all 0:05:42.407 --> 0:05:44.847 said the same thing, and it was about the day 0:05:45.007 --> 0:05:47.007 or days as it turned out, that all of Mamma 0:05:47.087 --> 0:05:50.207 MIA's editorial team got their pictures taken. It was for 0:05:50.287 --> 0:05:52.647 new headshots. And as I'm sure you can understand from 0:05:52.727 --> 0:05:55.247 the term headshots, they're like the pictures that get taken 0:05:55.287 --> 0:05:56.607 that then go at the top of all the little 0:05:56.687 --> 0:05:58.487 articles so you can see the people who wrote them. 0:05:58.527 --> 0:06:02.167 They might be used in professional decks on LinkedIn their 0:06:02.207 --> 0:06:05.647 life crusted. Yes you look serious, So there you're like 0:06:05.847 --> 0:06:09.687 professional headshots. And although I know that not every body's 0:06:09.727 --> 0:06:11.967 job requires them to have their picture taken like that, 0:06:12.727 --> 0:06:16.087 think about sort of formal photograph situations like maybe you're 0:06:16.087 --> 0:06:19.247 in a wedding party, maybe you're at somebody's birthday, maybe 0:06:19.247 --> 0:06:20.807 it's the girl's weekend away. 0:06:20.967 --> 0:06:21.967 Going on a dating app. 0:06:22.087 --> 0:06:24.167 Going on a dating app, you need the yeah, all 0:06:24.207 --> 0:06:26.887 of those kind of things, think about all of those times. 0:06:27.407 --> 0:06:29.207 Here's Jem talking about the article. 0:06:29.607 --> 0:06:32.887 The idea for this article was sparked by my own 0:06:33.007 --> 0:06:36.607 headshot session with Dan, actually, because while I was in 0:06:36.647 --> 0:06:39.887 the room with him, he was directing me to, you know, 0:06:40.007 --> 0:06:43.127 lift my chin and look this way, and I made 0:06:43.127 --> 0:06:45.767 a comment like off the calf of oh yes, because 0:06:45.767 --> 0:06:48.207 I don't want to double chin, and he kind of 0:06:48.247 --> 0:06:51.247 sighed and was like, oh, yeah, I've heard that one before. 0:06:52.127 --> 0:06:56.047 And when I prompted him, he said most of the 0:06:56.087 --> 0:06:58.647 people were most of the women that had come into 0:06:58.687 --> 0:07:01.687 that room today had also said that remark, and we'd 0:07:01.687 --> 0:07:04.287 all also talked about our wrinkles and our hair sitting 0:07:04.287 --> 0:07:06.447 the wrong way. And I did a bit of an 0:07:06.447 --> 0:07:09.647 impromptu interview with him while getting my photo taken, and 0:07:09.727 --> 0:07:12.767 I realized just how much we all bloody hate ourselves 0:07:13.407 --> 0:07:15.767 or how we look at least, and the men in 0:07:15.807 --> 0:07:18.207 our office, apparently we're in and out of that photo 0:07:18.247 --> 0:07:21.247 shoot in two minutes, didn't care at all about the photos, 0:07:21.247 --> 0:07:23.967 barely looked at them. And then the women on average 0:07:23.967 --> 0:07:27.887 were getting sixty to eighty shots per person. And then 0:07:27.887 --> 0:07:29.807 the number one thing we would all say to Dan, 0:07:30.007 --> 0:07:34.007 was it's not you, it's me. You know that trope 0:07:34.047 --> 0:07:37.567 that we're all, you know, people pleasers, and it's not 0:07:37.687 --> 0:07:40.927 Dan's fault. We are all just not good enough. I 0:07:40.967 --> 0:07:43.527 include myself in that, because when Dan showed me the photos, 0:07:43.567 --> 0:07:45.527 all I could see was the bad stuff. I looked 0:07:45.767 --> 0:07:48.127 a little bit fatter, a little bit rinklier than I felt, 0:07:48.167 --> 0:07:50.687 and I thought my smile was too big. And then 0:07:50.687 --> 0:07:53.767 when I left the room, I started observing my colleagues 0:07:53.967 --> 0:07:56.207 and there were hair straighteners out all over the office. 0:07:56.287 --> 0:07:59.007 Everyone was touching up full faces of makeup that they 0:07:59.087 --> 0:08:03.207 don't usually have. We're all spending ages kind of fixing. 0:08:02.887 --> 0:08:04.367 Ourselves for our turn. 0:08:04.887 --> 0:08:06.367 So I knew that there was a story in it, 0:08:06.647 --> 0:08:09.607 but I didn't realize how hard it was going to 0:08:09.647 --> 0:08:13.167 be to actually get people to participate. No one wanted 0:08:13.167 --> 0:08:15.407 to share their headshot with me. I had to basically 0:08:15.447 --> 0:08:18.327 corner people in the office. They all had horrible things 0:08:18.327 --> 0:08:22.007 to say about themselves, really mean things, and this from 0:08:22.047 --> 0:08:24.607 people that I perceived to be really confident and really 0:08:24.687 --> 0:08:28.527 outwardly happy in their own skin. I had positive comments 0:08:28.567 --> 0:08:33.287 from probably two people really who enjoyed the experience, But 0:08:33.367 --> 0:08:36.767 then I had other colleagues saying things like their photos 0:08:36.807 --> 0:08:39.047 were never going to see the light of day, another 0:08:39.087 --> 0:08:41.327 one who said that they had a hair appointment especially 0:08:41.367 --> 0:08:43.487 for it, but they were just trying to pick the 0:08:43.567 --> 0:08:47.287 least bad shot. I'd love to say that there was 0:08:47.327 --> 0:08:51.207 a silver lining good ending to this story, but basically 0:08:51.287 --> 0:08:54.007 my findings were that even in twenty twenty four, we 0:08:54.207 --> 0:08:58.247 are picking apart our own appearances in agonizing detail, and 0:08:58.287 --> 0:09:01.647 the beauty tropes that we've been marinating in have just 0:09:01.687 --> 0:09:04.767 as much of a stranglehold on us as ever. So 0:09:05.127 --> 0:09:07.447 a bit of a downer for your Friday, But after 0:09:07.487 --> 0:09:09.887 writing this story, I'm trying to be a bit kinder 0:09:09.887 --> 0:09:13.207 to myself because I looked at my colleagues headshots and 0:09:13.247 --> 0:09:16.767 I thought they were all beautiful. So hopefully calling all 0:09:16.767 --> 0:09:19.367 of this out will make us realize what we're doing 0:09:20.407 --> 0:09:22.247 and we can all just be a little bit better, 0:09:22.367 --> 0:09:24.607 because we can't be this hung up on a headshot. 0:09:25.007 --> 0:09:30.087 And my first I heard on the grapevine you were 0:09:30.127 --> 0:09:34.007 one of the most time maintenance of all of the headshotters. 0:09:34.127 --> 0:09:36.687 Tell me what happened with you in these photos. 0:09:36.767 --> 0:09:41.207 I love getting my photo taken, Yeah, I love it. 0:09:41.287 --> 0:09:43.367 I love the whole experience of it. 0:09:43.367 --> 0:09:43.607 It. 0:09:43.687 --> 0:09:46.007 Firstly, I'm not one of those people who's like, oh yeah, 0:09:46.007 --> 0:09:48.007 I just like threw something on and went to out 0:09:48.047 --> 0:09:49.727 my friend. I put like effort in. I put my 0:09:49.727 --> 0:09:52.007 makeup on, did my hair, and chose my outfit. Even 0:09:52.047 --> 0:09:53.807 though my shirt had a hole in it was fine. 0:09:54.167 --> 0:09:56.687 I just loved the experience of just like being there, 0:09:56.847 --> 0:09:58.887 being in front of the camera doing like a little 0:09:58.967 --> 0:09:59.727 quirky thing. 0:10:00.007 --> 0:10:00.807 I just love it. 0:10:00.847 --> 0:10:02.447 And I think it's because I don't get it in 0:10:02.527 --> 0:10:05.567 my everyday life as much as much as other people. 0:10:05.647 --> 0:10:07.767 And I think it all boils down to not having 0:10:07.807 --> 0:10:09.487 a partner, Like there's no one in my life who 0:10:09.527 --> 0:10:11.767 would just candidly ever take a photo of me. 0:10:11.887 --> 0:10:13.927 So why did you have to have two photo shoots 0:10:13.927 --> 0:10:14.207 for this? 0:10:14.287 --> 0:10:15.447 Because I loved it so much. 0:10:16.007 --> 0:10:18.687 Oh it wasn't because you hated your picture. 0:10:18.607 --> 0:10:21.207 And there was a deeper meaning. So from since I 0:10:21.287 --> 0:10:23.567 was younger, I don't like seeing my photos through someone 0:10:23.567 --> 0:10:25.487 else's lens. So for me, it's not really the act 0:10:25.567 --> 0:10:28.327 of taking the photo, it's the editing that happens after it. 0:10:28.647 --> 0:10:31.167 I remember when I was around sixteen, I went to 0:10:31.567 --> 0:10:33.407 one of my friend's birthday parties, and it was like 0:10:33.407 --> 0:10:35.647 one of those big sixteen. She had a professional photographer 0:10:36.007 --> 0:10:37.847 and I saw the photos on the camera and then 0:10:38.007 --> 0:10:40.567 she posted them all on her Facebook page and tagged 0:10:40.607 --> 0:10:42.367 us all in it, and they were the edited versions. 0:10:42.407 --> 0:10:45.527 And I saw that my skin was lightened in the 0:10:45.647 --> 0:10:49.927 edited versions. What And I immediately went, I look so good, 0:10:50.247 --> 0:10:53.247 Like I look really good. And from then all my 0:10:53.287 --> 0:10:55.927 Instagram photos, i'd always lighten my skin a little bit 0:10:56.047 --> 0:10:57.527 when I edit it. And then I went through this 0:10:57.527 --> 0:10:58.927 whole thing, I was like, this is a bit fucked 0:10:58.967 --> 0:11:02.167 up what I'm doing. So now I always think, like, 0:11:02.207 --> 0:11:04.447 I just don't like someone editing my own photo. So 0:11:04.447 --> 0:11:05.927 that's where I whenever to play. 0:11:06.007 --> 0:11:08.207 So do you mean like, because the way that this 0:11:08.327 --> 0:11:10.847 works is the obvios. The photographer in the room takes 0:11:10.887 --> 0:11:14.007 like lots of pictures then whittles them down to like 0:11:14.087 --> 0:11:15.767 a few pictures. I mean, I don't know if this 0:11:15.807 --> 0:11:17.727 is exactly how this works, but it's often how it works. 0:11:18.167 --> 0:11:20.287 And then you go, I like that one, not that one. 0:11:20.647 --> 0:11:22.287 You're like, you want to edit them down? 0:11:22.607 --> 0:11:25.007 Yeah, oh, I'll just like save the raw version. I 0:11:25.007 --> 0:11:26.967 don't like my photos to be edited, right. 0:11:26.887 --> 0:11:28.087 Like you mean retouched. 0:11:28.167 --> 0:11:31.567 That's what I edited, retouched like brighton. I don't like 0:11:31.607 --> 0:11:33.407 any like hues like. 0:11:34.127 --> 0:11:35.487 That, and that's why. 0:11:35.607 --> 0:11:38.447 That's the reason why otherwise a whole actual taking photo 0:11:38.487 --> 0:11:39.527 experiences I love. 0:11:40.887 --> 0:11:43.967 So you were so you got your picture taken twice 0:11:44.647 --> 0:11:47.167 because you liked it so much and you like the 0:11:47.167 --> 0:11:47.967 picture that you've got in. 0:11:47.927 --> 0:11:49.927 The end, Yeah, I love the picture, but I also 0:11:49.967 --> 0:11:51.767 wanted something different because I was like, this is a 0:11:51.767 --> 0:11:53.287 fun experience. I'll do it again, and I got the 0:11:53.287 --> 0:11:57.327 girls in the office to do my makeup, hairto. 0:11:56.407 --> 0:11:59.287 You're a freak, I say that with all my love. No, 0:11:59.367 --> 0:12:01.847 you're an outlier, is what I mean. Because that's unusual. Right, 0:12:01.887 --> 0:12:05.167 Most people hate getting their photo taken, including me. When 0:12:05.207 --> 0:12:07.447 I was listening to Jemma talk about it and reading 0:12:07.487 --> 0:12:11.047 her article, I was like, why is this a surprise? 0:12:11.767 --> 0:12:14.447 She nailed it. And when I was thinking about why 0:12:14.487 --> 0:12:18.327 it is, it's because having your photo taken is a 0:12:18.407 --> 0:12:24.727 very vulnerable moment, because you are submitting, consciously or unconsciously 0:12:25.607 --> 0:12:29.127 to measuring yourself next to the beauty standard that there 0:12:29.247 --> 0:12:32.887 is for women. And guess what, not a single one 0:12:32.887 --> 0:12:36.807 of us, even Margo Robbie, matches up to that standard 0:12:36.847 --> 0:12:41.047 meets that standard. That's because that standard is so unrealistic, 0:12:41.127 --> 0:12:44.487 it's so face tuned, it's so you know, retouched, whatever 0:12:44.487 --> 0:12:47.447 you want to call it, it actually isn't a human person. 0:12:48.447 --> 0:12:51.247 So I think that there is a vulnerability in that, 0:12:51.487 --> 0:12:54.127 and there's also a you know you're going to fail 0:12:54.367 --> 0:12:56.887 going in like it's a test that you cannot win. 0:12:57.167 --> 0:13:00.447 Do you really think that all of us, all ages, 0:13:00.487 --> 0:13:03.887 shape sizes, all the different things, we are all trying 0:13:03.887 --> 0:13:05.247 to be Margo Robbie in her head? 0:13:05.287 --> 0:13:07.327 No, no, no, I don't mean Margaret. I mean that even 0:13:07.327 --> 0:13:09.487 Margot Robbie feels that way. I don't mean that we're 0:13:09.487 --> 0:13:11.127 all trying to look like Margot Robbie. 0:13:11.127 --> 0:13:12.927 But I mean that when I say that, I mean, 0:13:13.167 --> 0:13:14.087 well that beautiful. 0:13:14.167 --> 0:13:17.487 We're all trying to look like a beauty standard that 0:13:17.687 --> 0:13:24.967 is overwhelmingly light skinned, thin, young, flawless, big lips, all 0:13:24.967 --> 0:13:28.367 these different features, trying to look like that. But then, 0:13:28.367 --> 0:13:30.487 why don't you like pictures of yourself? I don't mean 0:13:30.527 --> 0:13:33.007 every single one of those things, But for you, what 0:13:33.207 --> 0:13:35.167 do you see when you look at a picture of yourself? 0:13:35.167 --> 0:13:36.567 Did you enjoy having your photo taken? 0:13:36.847 --> 0:13:37.567 I don't love. 0:13:37.447 --> 0:13:39.207 Having my photo taken, although I don't hate it because 0:13:39.207 --> 0:13:40.807 it's part of my job and it happens a lot, right, 0:13:40.807 --> 0:13:42.487 which I know it sounds like a bit wanky, but 0:13:42.487 --> 0:13:44.487 it's true. Like we've got our pictures taken for the show, 0:13:44.527 --> 0:13:46.367 we get our pictures taken for a portrait, we get 0:13:46.407 --> 0:13:49.767 our pictures taken to promote the show on social every day. 0:13:50.087 --> 0:13:53.167 So I have become much less precious about it. I 0:13:53.287 --> 0:13:56.367 used to be spos They much more precious about it. 0:13:56.847 --> 0:13:59.087 Because one of the reasons why I found this really 0:13:59.087 --> 0:14:02.727 interesting that Jemma found that all these women hated looking 0:14:02.727 --> 0:14:05.927 at pictures of themselves and thought they looked awful is 0:14:06.047 --> 0:14:08.407 I was surprised for the same reason that she was. 0:14:08.447 --> 0:14:10.447 I know, you say you're not, and I'm sure you're right, 0:14:11.487 --> 0:14:15.127 because to my mind, we've lived for however long now 0:14:15.207 --> 0:14:20.767 in this much more body confident culture. So all these young, 0:14:20.887 --> 0:14:23.047 mostly young women who are out there, they're mostly younger 0:14:23.047 --> 0:14:26.207 millennials or Gen Z's, they are much more visible than 0:14:26.207 --> 0:14:28.127 we ever were at that age because they take pictures 0:14:28.127 --> 0:14:31.647 of themselves endlessly. Everything you do, you're having your picture taken. 0:14:31.487 --> 0:14:33.367 Right, Why do they then do with those people exactly 0:14:33.487 --> 0:14:33.687 what I. 0:14:33.727 --> 0:14:36.807 Mean well, but no they don't. These girls don't do 0:14:36.887 --> 0:14:40.407 that at all, but they do get editorial approval of 0:14:40.447 --> 0:14:43.047 those pictures, do you know what I mean? Like selfie 0:14:43.087 --> 0:14:45.447 culture and growing up in selfie culture means that you 0:14:45.487 --> 0:14:47.927 get to choose which pictures you put up, right, So 0:14:48.007 --> 0:14:51.607 that's the difference. But they are much more photographed and 0:14:51.687 --> 0:14:54.327 visible than we ever were growing up. They're much more 0:14:54.807 --> 0:14:57.407 familiar with their faces, their angles, what they like, what 0:14:57.487 --> 0:15:00.367 they don't like, and so I find that really interesting 0:15:00.407 --> 0:15:04.167 because I thought that they would be much more comfortable 0:15:04.327 --> 0:15:05.167 with the process. 0:15:05.207 --> 0:15:07.847 When someone takes your picture, it's not in your control. 0:15:07.887 --> 0:15:10.207 And that's the thing that m says, Like I often 0:15:10.247 --> 0:15:14.447 look at the pictures that women I know post of themselves, 0:15:14.527 --> 0:15:17.847 and to me, what they think reflects them or what 0:15:17.927 --> 0:15:20.447 they want to reflect them doesn't look to me like 0:15:20.487 --> 0:15:23.367 the them that I know. And I've heard other people 0:15:23.407 --> 0:15:25.447 say that about me. Sometimes the way you want to 0:15:25.647 --> 0:15:28.047 be perceived or the way you think you look is 0:15:28.087 --> 0:15:30.607 different to how other people see you. But to me, 0:15:30.887 --> 0:15:33.127 what you said just then whole is at the crux 0:15:33.167 --> 0:15:35.887 of this, because I think it is a very specific 0:15:36.007 --> 0:15:39.287 trap that we are now in. We're being punished twice 0:15:39.287 --> 0:15:42.687 in many ways because the whole body positivity movement and 0:15:42.727 --> 0:15:46.247 this idea of everybody is beautiful and beauty. You know, 0:15:46.327 --> 0:15:49.527 you're beautiful and everybody's beautiful, and you're beautiful without makeup, 0:15:49.567 --> 0:15:52.007 and you're beautiful when you're old. And that scene in 0:15:52.047 --> 0:15:55.647 the Barbie movie where Mico Robbie of all people, looks 0:15:55.687 --> 0:15:57.407 at that old lady at the bus stop and goes, 0:15:57.527 --> 0:15:58.527 you're so beautiful. 0:15:59.407 --> 0:16:01.407 I know it. That's bullshit. 0:16:01.527 --> 0:16:03.727 No, it's not bullshit. Do you know why it's bullshit? 0:16:03.927 --> 0:16:09.127 Because it is gaslighting us that we live, we marinate 0:16:09.527 --> 0:16:13.567 in a sea of beauty standards for women, and that 0:16:13.767 --> 0:16:17.967 to say that that's not the case is deliver us. 0:16:18.887 --> 0:16:22.647 But we're also like posting these same photos on our Instagram. 0:16:22.727 --> 0:16:24.327 So you're saying, like the photos that you post of 0:16:24.407 --> 0:16:27.087 yourself on your Instagram, you don't think any of them 0:16:27.167 --> 0:16:27.887 you look really good in. 0:16:28.127 --> 0:16:31.007 Show me the proof that everybody's beautiful. Show me how 0:16:31.087 --> 0:16:32.567 society confirms that. 0:16:33.407 --> 0:16:37.007 What that idea is that everybody's beautiful as bullshit. Is 0:16:37.087 --> 0:16:39.247 buying into something that's being pushed on us about what 0:16:39.327 --> 0:16:42.207 beauty is, and what we all actually know is that 0:16:42.287 --> 0:16:45.207 everybody is beautiful, Like you know very well that when 0:16:45.207 --> 0:16:47.127 you love someone and you like someone, they are more 0:16:47.167 --> 0:16:49.727 beautiful to you. What the whole point of that thing 0:16:49.767 --> 0:16:52.607 of Barbie looking at the older lady with the wrinkles 0:16:52.647 --> 0:16:56.447 and going you're beautiful is deliberately subversive because they are 0:16:56.607 --> 0:17:01.367 like your grandparent with their wrinkly skin and their creepy hands, 0:17:01.847 --> 0:17:04.807 is beautiful to you because you know who they are. 0:17:04.887 --> 0:17:07.367 So I think if we're pushing back on the everyone 0:17:07.447 --> 0:17:11.047 is beautiful idea, then we're buying into the narrow beauty 0:17:11.047 --> 0:17:14.967 standard that only belongs to point zero nine of the population. 0:17:15.207 --> 0:17:17.327 I just feel like it's tricking us. And I agree 0:17:17.327 --> 0:17:21.167 with what you're saying, like people who society doesn't confirm 0:17:21.247 --> 0:17:25.407 is a beautiful a beautiful to me. But then what 0:17:25.447 --> 0:17:29.047 does that mean as the person who your child might 0:17:29.127 --> 0:17:31.487 think is beautiful, or your partner or your friend or 0:17:31.527 --> 0:17:35.927 your dog. If every message that you get from the 0:17:35.967 --> 0:17:39.527 rest of society in every waking moment of your life 0:17:39.887 --> 0:17:41.767 is that you are not beautiful because you do not 0:17:41.927 --> 0:17:45.047 conform to this beauty standard that is impossible for any 0:17:45.047 --> 0:17:48.167 woman to conform to you, right, it then just means 0:17:48.167 --> 0:17:50.647 that you're failing twice because you feel bad about it 0:17:51.127 --> 0:17:53.487 that you're not meeting the beauty standard, and then you're 0:17:53.527 --> 0:17:57.247 told no, but actually you are beautiful. It's like, well, 0:17:57.407 --> 0:18:00.087 but why should I believe you? How can I believe 0:18:00.127 --> 0:18:01.007 you that I'm beautiful? 0:18:01.087 --> 0:18:02.607 I don't think it's that deep. 0:18:02.807 --> 0:18:06.047 I honestly think, like, sometimes I just feel really good, 0:18:06.127 --> 0:18:07.967 so I want to post a photo on Instagram so 0:18:08.007 --> 0:18:10.087 my ex boyfriend will see it sesars for the every 0:18:10.127 --> 0:18:12.167 day for the rest of his life. I honestly think 0:18:12.207 --> 0:18:14.607 I look at photos of myself on my Instagram more 0:18:14.647 --> 0:18:16.687 than any other person because I just want to see 0:18:16.687 --> 0:18:19.127 it from other people's perspective. I'm like, yep, that personal 0:18:19.167 --> 0:18:20.807 think I look good. Yep, that personal think. 0:18:20.647 --> 0:18:21.127 I look good. 0:18:21.367 --> 0:18:24.047 I don't think it's that deep of me going beautiful 0:18:24.447 --> 0:18:25.207 not beautiful. 0:18:25.367 --> 0:18:28.047 So you really only consider what you look like through 0:18:28.087 --> 0:18:29.767 the lens of what other people think you look like. 0:18:29.967 --> 0:18:32.647 Yeah on Instagram. Yeah, But if I'm taking like a 0:18:32.647 --> 0:18:36.567 professional shot and I'm posting it myself, sometimes I'm like, no, 0:18:36.727 --> 0:18:38.687 I want to look like how I feel like. I 0:18:38.727 --> 0:18:39.567 want people to perceive me. 0:18:39.647 --> 0:18:40.847 But when you look in the mirror, do you go 0:18:40.927 --> 0:18:42.047 I'm beautiful? No? 0:18:42.567 --> 0:18:44.207 Who does that That's what I mean. 0:18:44.647 --> 0:18:47.087 If the body positivity movement, of which I'm a big 0:18:47.127 --> 0:18:50.407 supporter and proponent, but if it's been so effective and 0:18:50.527 --> 0:18:54.247