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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and orders.

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Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on Hello, It's your host Jemma

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Speaker 2: Bath jumping into your ears to tell you why this

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Speaker 2: episode of True Crime Conversations sounds a little bit different.

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Speaker 2: It's because we recorded it live at south By Southwest

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Speaker 2: Sydney in October. I was joined by journalist and author

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Speaker 2: Nicole Madigan to talk about her book obsession and her

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Speaker 2: experience of being stalked by her partner's ex girlfriend. I

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Speaker 2: interviewed Nicole in front of a live audience and we

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Speaker 2: had a great conversation that I didn't want you to

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Speaker 2: miss out on hearing, which is why we're releasing it

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Speaker 2: for you to listen to today now. If you've heard

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Speaker 2: Nicole's story before, it's because we did release an episode

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Speaker 2: with her last year where Emma Gillespie talked to Nicole

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Speaker 2: about the phenomenon of stalking. This episode dives much deeper

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Speaker 2: into da Coole's own experience and the newest developments in

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Speaker 2: her life, especially since her restraining order against her stalker

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Speaker 2: lifted and the messages started back up, albeit much more sneakily.

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Speaker 2: Let us know what you think of the conversation here

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Speaker 2: it is Hello everyone, I'm Jeremy Bath, host of True

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Speaker 2: Crime Conversations, a Muma Mia podcast exploring the world's most

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Speaker 2: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the

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Speaker 2: most about them. True crime is big business. According to

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Speaker 2: recent insights into the podcasting landscape here in Australia, forty

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Speaker 2: five percent of US are devoted to the industry, making

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Speaker 2: it the most popular category. True Crime Conversations is regularly

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Speaker 2: in the twenty most downloaded podcasts in the country and

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Speaker 2: it's our third most popular podcast at Mamma Mia. Mama Mia,

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Speaker 2: for those who don't know us, is Australia's largest independent

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Speaker 2: women's media group and it's ultimately our goal to make

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Speaker 2: the world a better place for women and girls. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so how do we do that while talking about crime

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Speaker 2: on a podcast, you might ask, Well, true crime is

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Speaker 2: traditionally a very male dominated genre, one where women's stories

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Speaker 2: can often be sensationalized and sometimes even laced with subtle misogyny.

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Speaker 2: We make sure that women's voices are heard within their

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Speaker 2: own narratives, so that the horrible things that happen to

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Speaker 2: them or that they're accused of doing to other people

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Speaker 2: are just turned into trauma porn for the sake of

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Speaker 2: telling a good story. With thirty million lifetime downloads, we

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Speaker 2: at Mamma Mia interview everyone from detectives to victims to perpetrators, authors, podcasters,

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Speaker 2: and journalists about the biggest crimes of our generation. And

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Speaker 2: we have a very special live episode to share with

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Speaker 2: you today. Nicole Madigan is an author and journalist. She's

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Speaker 2: also a colleague of mine at Mamma MAA. Nicole is

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Speaker 2: also a victim survivor of stalking, and if that's a

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Speaker 2: topic that is triggering for you, consider this your warning.

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Speaker 2: Nicole's story starf in twenty eighteen and it remains ongoing.

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Speaker 2: Her experience is eye opening, and she's able to articulate

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Speaker 2: the nuances of a crime that for so long have

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Speaker 2: been misunderstood and underestimated in our country. Before we get

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Speaker 2: to Nicole, as we always do on true crime conversations,

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Speaker 2: allow me to set the scene. It's weirder when the

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Speaker 2: guest is sitting with me. It's a stinking hot day

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Speaker 2: in Brisbane in February twenty eighteen, and Nicole arrives at

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Speaker 2: her inner city apartment with her son Ben they're meeting

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Speaker 2: a group of his footy mates and their parents for

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Speaker 2: an off season sausage sizzle and some cricket, and Nicole

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Speaker 2: is looking forward to escaping from her own thoughts with

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Speaker 2: some small talk. She's currently in the final stages of

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Speaker 2: leaving a twelve year marriage and starting a new life

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Speaker 2: with her three young kids. It's messy and sad and strained.

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Speaker 2: The day unfolds without a hitch until a woman who's

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Speaker 2: been sitting off to the side asks are you taking

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Speaker 2: photos aout him? As she walks back past Adam, being

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Speaker 2: another dad at the gathering. The interaction is fleeting and

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Speaker 2: a bit weird taking photos of Ben, she replies, but

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Speaker 2: the woman is already walking away. Later that night, she

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Speaker 2: gets a Facebook message from a woman named Carissa Owens. Hi, Sorry,

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Speaker 2: totally didn't mean anything by my comment. I thought you

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Speaker 2: were taking photos for the footy page and I wanted

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Speaker 2: you to take one of Adam getting bowled out by

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Speaker 2: the kids.

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Speaker 3: Ha ha.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, really wanted to chat to you today. Weird but okay,

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Speaker 2: Nicole replies politely and moves on. But a week later

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Speaker 2: she gets another message, then another, and another and another.

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Speaker 2: This is the start of five years of pain and

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Speaker 2: harassment from a woman who would eventually be charged with stalking,

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Speaker 2: and Nicole joins us. Now, Nicole, that was the first

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Speaker 2: message you got from Carissa at nine o'clock at night

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Speaker 2: after a day at the footy. What happened next?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So after that night, I didn't give it a

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Speaker 1: lot of thought, to be honest, And about a week later,

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Speaker 1: I was at the shopping center, just minding my own business,

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Speaker 1: and I got another text, a Facebook message, i should say,

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Speaker 1: from the same person, asking if I was married. And

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Speaker 1: at that point, privately, I was going through a separation

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Speaker 1: that had happened, but I hadn't told anyone about it,

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Speaker 1: so I didn't want to talk about it to anyone,

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Speaker 1: let alone a strange stranger. Yeah, so I just kind

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Speaker 1: of put it off and said, oh, why is that?

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Speaker 1: And she said I was just wondering, and I let

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Speaker 1: it go. And then a couple of days later, I

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Speaker 1: got another message to the same effect and I answered

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Speaker 1: it in a similar kind of a way. And this

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Speaker 1: happened two or three more times, and I mentioned it

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Speaker 1: to my mum at one point and she said, why

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Speaker 1: don't you just tell you that guy from the foot

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Speaker 1: eag you're telling him that this woman is kind of

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Speaker 1: sending you these messages, and because I had enough on

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Speaker 1: my plate at that point, so that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: So you reached out to Adam, who you didn't really know, No,

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Speaker 2: not very well.

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Speaker 1: We'd seen each other. He was a coach at the

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Speaker 1: football club, so we had met and spoken briefly, but

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Speaker 1: not in any kind of particularly friendly way.

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Speaker 2: And what was his reaction to you kind of telling

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Speaker 2: him you'd been get these weird messages?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I sent it in a message as well. I

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Speaker 1: didn't call him or anything like that, and he reacted

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Speaker 1: sort of, I guess as you would expect, kind of

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Speaker 1: sounded embarrassed, apologized, but I suppose he didn't sound as

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Speaker 1: surprised or shocked as you might expect. So I just

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Speaker 1: kind of thought, you know, poor guy, this is embarrassing,

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Speaker 1: but at least he knows and hopefully I won't get

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Speaker 1: any more messages.

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Speaker 2: Did he give you any context as to how we

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Speaker 2: knew her?

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Speaker 1: Not at that time. I mean, it's my impression was

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Speaker 1: that it was his girlfriend, but he had sort of

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Speaker 1: said this kind of behavior is why she's not in

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Speaker 1: my life anymore and left it at that, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't pry because I didn't really know him at that point.

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Speaker 1: So Carrissa's message has kind of died off, and in

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Speaker 1: the meantime you got chatting to Adam. Yeah. I guess

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Speaker 1: it was one of those things that just kind of

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Speaker 1: happened organically. A few weeks after that, he sent me

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Speaker 1: a message to check in and say, have you received

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Speaker 1: any more of those messages? You know, and apologize again?

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Speaker 1: And I hadn't, of course, which is what I said,

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Speaker 1: And we just sort of slowly developed a bit of

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Speaker 1: a back and forth in messaging which went over several

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Speaker 1: weeks and months and developed from there and.

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Speaker 2: Spoiler alone fell in love.

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Speaker 1: M hm, we did. Yep.

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Speaker 2: So we skipped forward a year and you hadn't heard

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Speaker 2: from Carrisa in this time, and it's AFL grand final day.

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Speaker 2: You remember that day very specifically, Yeah, September twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: What happened? What changed? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I remember the day really well because, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: I had gone through a sort of ugly separation, which

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Speaker 1: most separations are not pleasant, so it was difficult, and

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Speaker 1: had really fallen into a nice, easy relationship with Adam

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Speaker 1: and the kids, and we just started mixing the kids

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Speaker 1: and things like that. So this was our first kind

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Speaker 1: of event that we were hosting together.

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Speaker 2: So you had three, he had two, yeah, one big, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 1: And we had other family members. My parents were there,

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Speaker 1: and we had friends and things like that. So it

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Speaker 1: was a really kind of poignant special moment for me.

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Speaker 1: So I remember it well. And at the end of

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Speaker 1: that night, we were excited, you know, like and posted

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Speaker 1: a couple of photos on Facebook and things like that.

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Speaker 1: And late into that night, as we were doing the

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Speaker 1: dishes and getting the kids to bed, I got this

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Speaker 1: message request that was a really kind of vulgar and

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Speaker 1: expletely written message, and sort of that's where everything started

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Speaker 1: to go wrong.

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Speaker 2: How regular did the messages become, because I mean I

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Speaker 2: read out one of those messages at the start it

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Speaker 2: was very vanilla, I guess, But these messages that you

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Speaker 2: got a year later were anything. But I'll read one

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Speaker 2: of the more tasteful ones out to you. He's using

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Speaker 2: you to make me jealous. He still asks about me

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Speaker 2: and my children. You sleep on my side of the bed.

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Speaker 2: Ask him if he still has the pillow I bought

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Speaker 2: for him. He always said he hates blondes. Assuming you

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Speaker 2: were blonde at the time. So this and the ones

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Speaker 2: above are the kinds of messages you were getting how regularly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that particular night I got a lot quite

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Speaker 1: in a flurry, and Adam got a lot as well,

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Speaker 1: And as you see, they were quite vulgar and ugly,

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Speaker 1: so they were more at that stage. It was just

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Speaker 1: an emotional response that I had. It was quite confronting

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Speaker 1: and I hadn't dealt with anything like that before. And

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Speaker 1: making that night more sort of concerning, I suppose, was

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Speaker 1: about an hour or two after I got those messages,

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Speaker 1: I received a text message from my ex husband just saying,

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Speaker 1: Carissa says, Hi. That was just a really horrible feeling

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Speaker 1: because in that moment, all in one sort of night,

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Speaker 1: I'd realized that this person was coming for me, and

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Speaker 1: she'd also somehow contacted my ex husband. From that point on,

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Speaker 1: the messages came really regularly, so most days I would

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Speaker 1: get them. Sometimes a few days would go by where

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Speaker 1: there was a break and then they would start again,

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Speaker 1: but they were always in a flurry, so that ding ding,

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Speaker 1: ding ding that would come in in a cluster.

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Speaker 2: I think all of us obviously not in this same scenario,

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Speaker 2: but know the fear of the ding if you don't

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Speaker 2: want a ding. But how did it make you feel

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Speaker 2: when it's starting to come every single day and we're

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Speaker 2: talking weeks, months, We're going to eventually start talking years.

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Speaker 2: But in their start, when you weren't used to this

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Speaker 2: and you started getting these dings at all hours of

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Speaker 2: the day, how did it start to affect you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that feeling with the dings changed obviously as

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Speaker 1: time went on, because the motivation behind those messages was

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Speaker 1: becoming more concerning. But in those early days, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: thinking stalking or anything like that. I was just found

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Speaker 1: it all really confronting. It was really ugly and just confronting,

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Speaker 1: so it upset me. I never knew when it was coming.

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Speaker 1: They were really offensive, and I was starting to become,

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Speaker 1: you know, scared about what the motivation was because obviously

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Speaker 1: there was sort of thinly veiled underlining threats there all

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Speaker 1: the time too, that she was wanting to ruin my

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Speaker 1: life essentially.

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Speaker 2: So what did you know about her at this point?

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Speaker 1: Well, not a lot, only what I'd spoken to Adam about.

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Speaker 1: So he had told me that he had dated her

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Speaker 1: and how things ended, and that was pretty much it,

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't know anything else about her. I

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Speaker 1: had never met her or anything, and.

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Speaker 2: Knew she was a mum, she had two kids, she

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Speaker 2: lived in the same city reasonably, Yeah, but beyond that,

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Speaker 2: she was a stranger.

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Speaker 1: She was just a stranger to me.

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Speaker 2: You said that she started contacting your ex she also

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Speaker 2: started contacting your mum.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so i'd gathered that she'd contacted my ex husband,

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Speaker 1: and then a few probably about six or so weeks

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Speaker 1: into this year, my mum called and said she had

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Speaker 1: got a message request from this person as well. My

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Speaker 1: mum and I are really close, so the content of

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Speaker 1: the messages wasn't going to affect my relationship with my mum,

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Speaker 1: But the intention behind that message was what I found

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Speaker 1: frightening because it was full of lies. She sort of

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Speaker 1: concocted a confrontation between us and a conversation and a

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Speaker 1: little story there. So my fear at that point was

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Speaker 1: if this happens to know a work colleague or you know,

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Speaker 1: a client or something like that, that it could start

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Speaker 1: to cause some damage.

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Speaker 2: When did you first decide to involve police.

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Speaker 1: It was quite a while in. I think it had

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Speaker 1: been going on maybe sort of eight or so month.

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Speaker 2: That's a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a long time, but it was just

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Speaker 1: calling the police wasn't something that occurred to me. My

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Speaker 1: mom had suggested it. She's a more cautious person that

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Speaker 1: at that point, I was just sort of putting my

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Speaker 1: foot down and saying, I just don't want to feed

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Speaker 1: this or give it attention. I just didn't respond to

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Speaker 1: anything and I didn't do anything. Essentially, the moment when

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Speaker 1: I thought we should do something about it was when

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Speaker 1: I received some messages where it had become evident that

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Speaker 1: she'd created a profile in my name, a fake profile,

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Speaker 1: and send herself some messages from me, and then send

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Speaker 1: all of those screenshots to Adam and told him that

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Speaker 1: she'd be sending them around to my work associates and

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Speaker 1: family and friends and things like that. So, to me,

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Speaker 1: it had turned a little bit of a corner with impersonation,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, now is the time to involve police.

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Speaker 2: So you didn't call the police station. You involved a

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Speaker 2: cop that was a mate. So what did they suggest?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So he said that often in cases like this,

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Speaker 1: and this is very similar to the early stages of

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Speaker 1: domestic violence cases, his advice was, if you make an

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Speaker 1: official complaint that you can't prove it could inflame the

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Speaker 1: situation and make the person angrier and make things worse,

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Speaker 1: so which is part of the problem with the way

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Speaker 1: these sorts of issues are handled. You're essentially left to

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Speaker 1: deal with it on your own. He did suggest, though,

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Speaker 1: writing an email or contacting her in some way to

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Speaker 1: warn her that we will take it further if the contact.

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Speaker 2: Persists, which we did do and what happened.

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Speaker 1: So we drew up the email and sent it to

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Speaker 1: her and then nothing. We were really excited. We were like,

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Speaker 1: this is all we had to do. We just had

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Speaker 1: to speak up, and it's worked and it's done. And

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Speaker 1: for about four or five months it was total silence.

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Speaker 1: But after that time, yeah, things started again, but in

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Speaker 1: a quite a different way.

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Speaker 2: And how was that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what initially alerted me to her existence again

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Speaker 1: was my son had been on a weekend with his

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Speaker 1: father and he came home and said to me, oh,

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Speaker 1: Dad was talking to Carissa. And unfortunately my ex husband

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Speaker 1: had told the children about this person. It was just

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Speaker 1: part of that ugliness of the time. And I said, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: and he said I heard him say, like, have you

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Speaker 1: done the thing yet? And I didn't hear the answer,

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Speaker 1: and I said, oh, well, don't worry about it. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to talk to him about it, but it

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Speaker 1: was sort of in my mind, in the head. And

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Speaker 1: then a couple of days later, I got a text

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Speaker 1: message from an unknown number which was basically more of

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00:14:21,582 --> 00:14:24,542
Speaker 1: the same. They were sort of claiming to be someone else.

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Speaker 1: They gave themselves a different name, but said all of

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Speaker 1: the same sorts of things, the same sort of insults

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Speaker 1: towards me and also Adam.

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Speaker 2: So it was Carissa, but instead of Facebook, she's gone

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Speaker 2: to text.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, with an unknown number and saying that they

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Speaker 1: was somebody else. But then I got several different numbers

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Speaker 1: texting me with all of the same sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, she also evolved to Instagram. Tell us about that evolution,

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Speaker 2: because before that it was all quite private. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's in your private text messages, in your private Facebook messages,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly it's on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, I guess. I remember that moment really

303
00:14:58,662 --> 00:15:01,942
Speaker 1: well because we were getting ready to move house because

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00:15:01,982 --> 00:15:04,062
Speaker 1: we bought our first house together, so we were quite

305
00:15:04,062 --> 00:15:06,582
Speaker 1: excited and we were packing up my old house and

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00:15:06,622 --> 00:15:08,662
Speaker 1: it was while I was doing that I got an

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Speaker 1: Instagram notification, and at that point, those notifications weren't giving

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Speaker 1: me that horrible feeling of dread, because this was something

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Speaker 1: that seemed completely separate to her world from my understanding.

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Speaker 1: But she had tagged me in a post and it's

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Speaker 1: really difficult to describe because it sounds so almost juvenile,

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Speaker 1: but it was just a really insulting, kind of ugly

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Speaker 1: post using my name and just kind of I guess,

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Speaker 1: putting down my physical appearance and a few other things

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Speaker 1: like that. And that's when I thought, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: she's going public with this, and I ran out to

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Speaker 1: tell Adam and it stayed public from that moment on.

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Speaker 2: So she just kind of moved straight to Instagram, yes,

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Speaker 2: and her page kind of became just a target at you.

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Speaker 1: It literally became just a series of posts about me.

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Speaker 2: I know that you said you didn't know much about

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Speaker 2: this woman, but obviously this far in, we're like a

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Speaker 2: year in. At this point, you did start doing a

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Speaker 2: little bit more digging. What did you find on the

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Speaker 2: internet about her?

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Speaker 1: It was kind of difficult because when I put her

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Speaker 1: name in, nothing much came up. She didn't have much

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00:16:13,142 --> 00:16:14,822
Speaker 1: there at all. I knew how she worked and that

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00:16:14,942 --> 00:16:17,342
Speaker 1: was about it. But at one point I was just

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Speaker 1: sitting there, just feeling sort of lost about all of this,

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Speaker 1: and I put in her phone number. I had seen

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Speaker 1: it in Adam's block numbers, so I'd put it in.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they still have these, but they

334
00:16:28,102 --> 00:16:30,942
Speaker 1: at that point in time, they had these websites that

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00:16:31,422 --> 00:16:34,502
Speaker 1: warned you about spam numbers and things like that, where

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Speaker 1: people sort of put in, oh, don't answer this number

337
00:16:37,102 --> 00:16:40,182
Speaker 1: because it's a spam caller or whatever. Anyway, her phone

338
00:16:40,222 --> 00:16:43,022
Speaker 1: number had come up, and there were several warnings from

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Speaker 1: people saying that this is Carissa. I'd met her on

340
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Speaker 1: Plenty of Fish or another dating site, and stay away

341
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Speaker 1: because once she laures onto you, she starts to stalk

342
00:16:52,382 --> 00:16:54,622
Speaker 1: and harass you. And she's been kicked off several times.

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Speaker 1: So at that point, I'm thinking, Okay, so she's done

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00:16:59,022 --> 00:17:01,622
Speaker 1: this before. And I sort of felt mixed feelings about that,

345
00:17:01,702 --> 00:17:03,462
Speaker 1: a little sort of relieved that it wasn't just me,

346
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Speaker 1: but also a bit alarmed that what does this mean

347
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Speaker 1: she had a history.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to articulate, because, like you were saying,

349
00:17:23,342 --> 00:17:26,102
Speaker 3: it's kind of hard to explain how much this can

350
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Speaker 3: permeate into your life, but she was interrupting really special

351
00:17:30,862 --> 00:17:33,742
Speaker 3: moments between you and your kids and your step kids

352
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Speaker 3: and your partner, who it was.

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Speaker 2: A pretty fresh relationship. How much did this affect your

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Speaker 2: relationship and your kids and the world you were creating.

355
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Speaker 1: Well, it affected me internally quite a lot. I tried

356
00:17:46,182 --> 00:17:48,542
Speaker 1: to shield the people around me from how much it

357
00:17:48,662 --> 00:17:50,622
Speaker 1: was impacting me, and that was for a couple of reasons.

358
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Speaker 1: One was I didn't want it to impact my relationship.

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Speaker 1: On principle, I didn't want to be doing what she

360
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Speaker 1: wanted me to do, which was fall apart. It's sort

361
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Speaker 1: of a strange feeling because you feel like, on the

362
00:18:01,262 --> 00:18:04,742
Speaker 1: one hand, I'm overreacting. I'm thinking about this all the time,

363
00:18:04,822 --> 00:18:06,742
Speaker 1: and if you tell someone them, I think you're just

364
00:18:06,782 --> 00:18:08,902
Speaker 1: getting some text messages and some you know, ignore it.

365
00:18:09,262 --> 00:18:11,342
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you know you can be

366
00:18:11,462 --> 00:18:14,862
Speaker 1: underreacting too because you just don't know how far someone

367
00:18:14,942 --> 00:18:17,182
Speaker 1: is going to go. And as someone who works in

368
00:18:17,182 --> 00:18:21,102
Speaker 1: that domestic violence space, you know, I am really aware

369
00:18:21,182 --> 00:18:25,702
Speaker 1: of how things can develop and escalate over time. And so, yeah,

370
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Speaker 1: it was affecting me quite a lot, but from a

371
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Speaker 1: lot of different perspectives. I guess there's that personal aspect

372
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Speaker 1: of this is emotionally draining, and it's also insulting and cruel,

373
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Speaker 1: But I think the bigger problem is the fixation that

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Speaker 1: someone has on you for such a long period of time,

375
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Speaker 1: and the effort they're putting in and the intent behind

376
00:18:43,102 --> 00:18:47,182
Speaker 1: those actions is the most alarming part, if that makes sense.

377
00:18:47,422 --> 00:18:50,622
Speaker 2: Of course, Well, you ended up contacting the police again

378
00:18:50,782 --> 00:18:53,622
Speaker 2: about a year and a half in so December twenty nineteen,

379
00:18:53,982 --> 00:18:57,782
Speaker 2: timeline wise, What made you do that? What made you

380
00:18:57,822 --> 00:18:59,542
Speaker 2: reach out again and try and get help.

381
00:18:59,902 --> 00:19:02,102
Speaker 1: So the second time we call police was after I

382
00:19:02,142 --> 00:19:04,822
Speaker 1: got those text messages, And the reason I did that

383
00:19:05,022 --> 00:19:09,142
Speaker 1: was because my understanding at that point was because of

384
00:19:09,182 --> 00:19:11,982
Speaker 1: the way the world had gone with terrorism and changes

385
00:19:12,022 --> 00:19:14,262
Speaker 1: to laws and things like that, was that you can't

386
00:19:14,462 --> 00:19:17,342
Speaker 1: get SIM cards anymore without putting your details in. That

387
00:19:17,422 --> 00:19:20,462
Speaker 1: was my understanding, So I assumed that if I told

388
00:19:20,462 --> 00:19:23,822
Speaker 1: police what had happened and a little bit about the history,

389
00:19:23,902 --> 00:19:26,142
Speaker 1: it would be easy for them to track down these

390
00:19:26,222 --> 00:19:29,462
Speaker 1: sims and who owned those sims and then maybe go

391
00:19:29,502 --> 00:19:31,462
Speaker 1: and have a talk to her. Yeah, that was my

392
00:19:31,502 --> 00:19:34,702
Speaker 1: assumption at the time, But that's not the response that I.

393
00:19:34,662 --> 00:19:36,782
Speaker 2: Got Well, they were pretty dismissive, weren't they.

394
00:19:36,902 --> 00:19:38,542
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was. I don't think he was

395
00:19:38,582 --> 00:19:42,342
Speaker 1: intentionally trying to be condescending, but that's how I felt.

396
00:19:42,662 --> 00:19:45,502
Speaker 1: And I think especially when you're dealing with a female

397
00:19:45,582 --> 00:19:49,742
Speaker 1: victim and a female perpetrator, it can have that sensationalist

398
00:19:50,182 --> 00:19:53,302
Speaker 1: tone to it. And when you're talking to someone and

399
00:19:53,422 --> 00:19:56,342
Speaker 1: you can see that dismissive response, it makes you withdraw

400
00:19:56,382 --> 00:20:00,222
Speaker 1: as well, so you end up underselling or minimizing what

401
00:20:00,262 --> 00:20:03,222
Speaker 1: you're going through anyway, So the end result is kind

402
00:20:03,222 --> 00:20:06,222
Speaker 1: of disastrous. But yeah, he basically said that sort of

403
00:20:06,222 --> 00:20:08,502
Speaker 1: famous line, keep a diary and if you're in danger

404
00:20:08,502 --> 00:20:09,702
Speaker 1: culture below, which.

405
00:20:09,542 --> 00:20:12,302
Speaker 2: You were already doing, you kept every single message.

406
00:20:12,342 --> 00:20:15,102
Speaker 1: I kept everything, and in the end that's what saved me.

407
00:20:15,182 --> 00:20:16,742
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was keeping everything in it.

408
00:20:16,982 --> 00:20:18,502
Speaker 2: Like a year and a half in you've been getting

409
00:20:18,502 --> 00:20:21,462
Speaker 2: messages like every day for periods of time, and you

410
00:20:21,582 --> 00:20:23,462
Speaker 2: just kind of told deal with it on your own.

411
00:20:23,662 --> 00:20:27,302
Speaker 1: Yeah. So after that day, like I was really devastated

412
00:20:27,342 --> 00:20:29,902
Speaker 1: after the police left that day because I really felt

413
00:20:29,902 --> 00:20:32,142
Speaker 1: like there's nothing I can do. I just have to

414
00:20:32,142 --> 00:20:34,102
Speaker 1: put up with this for as long as it goes on.

415
00:20:34,262 --> 00:20:37,062
Speaker 2: And by this point, had she worked out where you lived.

416
00:20:37,382 --> 00:20:39,942
Speaker 1: At that particular point when I called the police that

417
00:20:40,022 --> 00:20:43,222
Speaker 1: second time, No, I didn't know anything about what she

418
00:20:43,342 --> 00:20:46,222
Speaker 1: knew about me. But ultimately when we moved here, she

419
00:20:46,262 --> 00:20:48,702
Speaker 1: did find out those more personal details, and it took

420
00:20:48,822 --> 00:20:49,422
Speaker 1: that turn.

421
00:20:49,822 --> 00:20:52,902
Speaker 2: And how did she use those personal details to kind

422
00:20:52,902 --> 00:20:55,502
Speaker 2: of increase her almost threats to you?

423
00:20:55,782 --> 00:20:58,342
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important to note that in both the messages

424
00:20:58,502 --> 00:21:00,742
Speaker 1: and the Instagram posts and the text, there was always

425
00:21:00,782 --> 00:21:04,182
Speaker 1: that underlining threat that something was about to happen, that

426
00:21:04,222 --> 00:21:06,462
Speaker 1: she was about to do something bigger, or was about

427
00:21:06,502 --> 00:21:09,182
Speaker 1: to reveal something else or involve someone else. So I

428
00:21:09,222 --> 00:21:12,942
Speaker 1: was always quite on edge as to what was going

429
00:21:12,982 --> 00:21:16,262
Speaker 1: to happen next, and sometimes something did and sometimes it didn't.

430
00:21:16,262 --> 00:21:18,822
Speaker 1: But it effectively makes you feel like that person is

431
00:21:18,862 --> 00:21:22,142
Speaker 1: there all the time and everywhere, and you're just waiting

432
00:21:22,262 --> 00:21:23,982
Speaker 1: all the time to find out what's going to happen.

433
00:21:24,022 --> 00:21:27,662
Speaker 1: But to answer your question about that personal information, that

434
00:21:27,982 --> 00:21:31,302
Speaker 1: sort of happened over time towards the last six months

435
00:21:31,302 --> 00:21:34,222
Speaker 1: of the stalking, So it really escalated on Instagram and

436
00:21:34,262 --> 00:21:37,862
Speaker 1: she started posting really personal information like my address online

437
00:21:38,222 --> 00:21:41,262
Speaker 1: and details about my upcoming wedding and also a couple

438
00:21:41,302 --> 00:21:43,942
Speaker 1: of places that we've been, so it had become really

439
00:21:43,942 --> 00:21:45,102
Speaker 1: scary at that point.

440
00:21:45,262 --> 00:21:49,142
Speaker 2: Well, you became engaged in twenty twenty. Did you post

441
00:21:49,222 --> 00:21:51,022
Speaker 2: that online? How did she find out about it and

442
00:21:51,062 --> 00:21:51,942
Speaker 2: how did she react?

443
00:21:52,422 --> 00:21:55,142
Speaker 1: Well? Yeah, we did post it alone, as people do.

444
00:21:55,782 --> 00:21:58,342
Speaker 1: She reacted to it with the flurry of posts. I

445
00:21:58,382 --> 00:22:00,382
Speaker 1: want to say that it didn't make it any worse

446
00:22:00,502 --> 00:22:03,622
Speaker 1: or any less severe. And I think it's really important

447
00:22:03,742 --> 00:22:06,582
Speaker 1: when talking about this kind of crime, is that a

448
00:22:06,582 --> 00:22:10,062
Speaker 1: lot of times people think they've triggered a reaction in

449
00:22:10,102 --> 00:22:12,622
Speaker 1: a store or in a same applies to domestic violence,

450
00:22:12,622 --> 00:22:14,062
Speaker 1: where if only I hadn't have done that, or if

451
00:22:14,102 --> 00:22:16,902
Speaker 1: only I hadn't have said that, I've learned through research

452
00:22:16,942 --> 00:22:19,982
Speaker 1: and experience it you don't control that person's behavior, and really,

453
00:22:20,222 --> 00:22:22,902
Speaker 1: if that didn't trigger something, something else would have. So

454
00:22:22,982 --> 00:22:25,302
Speaker 1: I think in her case, she just continued on.

455
00:22:25,622 --> 00:22:29,102
Speaker 2: You ended up connecting with another one of Carrissa's victims.

456
00:22:29,502 --> 00:22:30,862
Speaker 2: Tell us about how that evolved.

457
00:22:31,102 --> 00:22:34,062
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I was sitting on my couch doing some

458
00:22:34,102 --> 00:22:37,222
Speaker 1: work and I got an Instagram message request and I

459
00:22:37,262 --> 00:22:39,582
Speaker 1: was kind of used to at that point getting those

460
00:22:39,622 --> 00:22:42,662
Speaker 1: message requests, and my heart sinking and thinking, oh, you

461
00:22:42,702 --> 00:22:44,902
Speaker 1: know what now, because that had happened quite a lot.

462
00:22:44,942 --> 00:22:47,702
Speaker 1: You know, she would often message me under her own name,

463
00:22:47,822 --> 00:22:50,822
Speaker 1: but also under a series of other names as well.

464
00:22:51,542 --> 00:22:53,702
Speaker 1: But when I read this message, yeah, this woman had

465
00:22:53,702 --> 00:22:57,582
Speaker 1: said that she was a relative of Carissa's and that

466
00:22:57,622 --> 00:23:00,542
Speaker 1: she had experienced a similar thing. She had identified me

467
00:23:01,102 --> 00:23:03,382
Speaker 1: through her own detective work. I guess in the way

468
00:23:03,422 --> 00:23:07,022
Speaker 1: that Carissa was posting about me and wanted to reach

469
00:23:07,062 --> 00:23:09,662
Speaker 1: out basically to say, you know, I know how you feel,

470
00:23:09,662 --> 00:23:14,222
Speaker 1: and I support what you're going through. And at that time,

471
00:23:14,662 --> 00:23:17,382
Speaker 1: initially I was a little bit suspicious, like I wasn't

472
00:23:17,422 --> 00:23:19,742
Speaker 1: sure if it was actually Carissa contacting me, you know,

473
00:23:19,862 --> 00:23:21,502
Speaker 1: to get me to kind of lower my guard. But

474
00:23:21,742 --> 00:23:24,742
Speaker 1: I investigated that and it was clearly a specific person

475
00:23:25,302 --> 00:23:27,742
Speaker 1: and so I responded to that message, and she ended

476
00:23:27,822 --> 00:23:31,182
Speaker 1: up being a real lifeline for me. It was incredibly

477
00:23:31,662 --> 00:23:34,502
Speaker 1: validating to have someone say, you know, I went through this,

478
00:23:34,662 --> 00:23:37,342
Speaker 1: and I'm terrified, and I was really scared, and you

479
00:23:37,342 --> 00:23:39,582
Speaker 1: could sense that fear in her even reaching out to me,

480
00:23:39,622 --> 00:23:40,782
Speaker 1: and so I was really grateful.

481
00:23:41,182 --> 00:23:44,342
Speaker 2: What was her story, obviously briefly, but what had Carissa

482
00:23:44,382 --> 00:23:45,062
Speaker 2: been doing to her?

483
00:23:45,502 --> 00:23:49,262
Speaker 1: Same sorts of things, so heavy contact, lots of abusive

484
00:23:49,262 --> 00:23:52,542
Speaker 1: messages and threats and things like that. This person believed

485
00:23:52,582 --> 00:23:55,262
Speaker 1: that she was responsible for her losing her job, so

486
00:23:55,302 --> 00:23:58,582
Speaker 1: she had contacted her workplace. When she was getting married,

487
00:23:58,622 --> 00:24:02,422
Speaker 1: she had contacted the wedding venue to cancel that. You know,

488
00:24:02,502 --> 00:24:05,182
Speaker 1: things like that just sort of interfering in her life,

489
00:24:05,222 --> 00:24:08,182
Speaker 1: and she had sort of caused a lot of estrangements

490
00:24:08,222 --> 00:24:09,582
Speaker 1: within the family as well.

491
00:24:10,462 --> 00:24:13,422
Speaker 2: Contacted the police again two point five years in So

492
00:24:13,462 --> 00:24:16,102
Speaker 2: two and a half years of being stalked by this

493
00:24:16,182 --> 00:24:19,022
Speaker 2: woman and you contact police again, this time via a

494
00:24:19,142 --> 00:24:22,502
Speaker 2: cybercrime report. How long did it take for them to

495
00:24:22,582 --> 00:24:24,382
Speaker 2: actually start taking you seriously?

496
00:24:24,702 --> 00:24:26,542
Speaker 1: It was a long time, but that was a real

497
00:24:26,582 --> 00:24:29,222
Speaker 1: turning point. So I sort of got the courage to

498
00:24:29,222 --> 00:24:31,342
Speaker 1: do that after speaking to this other victim. It just

499
00:24:31,462 --> 00:24:34,422
Speaker 1: validated that something bad was happening and that I should

500
00:24:34,422 --> 00:24:37,542
Speaker 1: do something about it. Having those things posted online, particularly

501
00:24:37,582 --> 00:24:40,262
Speaker 1: our address and knowing where we were going and things

502
00:24:40,342 --> 00:24:43,182
Speaker 1: like that, I knew I couldn't just sit by and

503
00:24:43,262 --> 00:24:45,982
Speaker 1: let it happen anymore. As someone with children and a family,

504
00:24:46,262 --> 00:24:49,422
Speaker 1: I had to try something else. I think I tried

505
00:24:49,462 --> 00:24:52,822
Speaker 1: the cybercrime because that allowed me to put everything in writing.

506
00:24:53,382 --> 00:24:56,302
Speaker 1: I mean it was a really writer, yes, And it

507
00:24:56,422 --> 00:24:59,062
Speaker 1: was a very long cybercrime report that I put in

508
00:24:59,102 --> 00:25:01,622
Speaker 1: so I was able to put things in order and

509
00:25:01,702 --> 00:25:04,342
Speaker 1: list some dates and give some tangible examples of what

510
00:25:04,382 --> 00:25:07,142
Speaker 1: I was going through. And ultimately that got referred to

511
00:25:07,222 --> 00:25:09,502
Speaker 1: my local police station, and I think I was really

512
00:25:09,542 --> 00:25:12,982
Speaker 1: fortunate because I got a female police officer who really

513
00:25:12,982 --> 00:25:15,822
Speaker 1: listened to me. But look, it probably took several months

514
00:25:15,902 --> 00:25:16,862
Speaker 1: before I got that call.

515
00:25:17,262 --> 00:25:21,662
Speaker 2: Once you have this great cop on your side, what's

516
00:25:21,662 --> 00:25:23,622
Speaker 2: the next step. She has the report, she believes you,

517
00:25:23,662 --> 00:25:26,302
Speaker 2: she wants to go after Curissa, but she has to basically.

518
00:25:25,982 --> 00:25:30,262
Speaker 1: Get in touch with Carissa. Yeah, then that gets tricky, exactly, Well,

519
00:25:30,262 --> 00:25:32,782
Speaker 1: a lot has to happen. So the first step was

520
00:25:33,142 --> 00:25:36,622
Speaker 1: the conversation. And I think from my perspective, hearing her

521
00:25:36,742 --> 00:25:40,422
Speaker 1: response to what I was telling her, which was she

522
00:25:40,542 --> 00:25:42,742
Speaker 1: was alarmed and she was treating me as a victim

523
00:25:42,742 --> 00:25:44,582
Speaker 1: of crime, and that sort of gave me the courage

524
00:25:44,622 --> 00:25:48,502
Speaker 1: to really explain in detail what was happening. She had

525
00:25:48,542 --> 00:25:51,942
Speaker 1: to contact Carrissa, yes, and that took several months also

526
00:25:52,142 --> 00:25:54,982
Speaker 1: because she just wouldn't answer calls. And wouldn't respond to

527
00:25:55,542 --> 00:25:57,662
Speaker 1: knocks on the door and things like that. So it

528
00:25:57,702 --> 00:26:00,862
Speaker 1: was quite frustrating. But at the same time, I was

529
00:26:00,902 --> 00:26:04,942
Speaker 1: also asked to gather an extensive kind of dossier of evidence,

530
00:26:05,182 --> 00:26:07,662
Speaker 1: and without that we wouldn't have got anywhere.

531
00:26:07,942 --> 00:26:11,222
Speaker 2: She was eventually charged. Yes, how did you find out

532
00:26:11,262 --> 00:26:11,702
Speaker 2: about that?

533
00:26:11,942 --> 00:26:15,422
Speaker 1: I got an email basically, so I had put all

534
00:26:15,422 --> 00:26:17,622
Speaker 1: of my evidence together in a little file and sent

535
00:26:17,662 --> 00:26:20,982
Speaker 1: that to her, and she ultimately did get in touch

536
00:26:21,102 --> 00:26:23,022
Speaker 1: with Carissa, and she let me know when she had

537
00:26:23,062 --> 00:26:25,102
Speaker 1: got in touch and said that Caissa had said it

538
00:26:25,102 --> 00:26:29,022
Speaker 1: was all a big misunderstanding, as expected, I suppose, which

539
00:26:29,102 --> 00:26:31,062
Speaker 1: kind of caused me to panic a little bit. I

540
00:26:31,062 --> 00:26:32,942
Speaker 1: really didn't think it was going to go any further

541
00:26:33,022 --> 00:26:34,902
Speaker 1: than that. But yeah, maybe a month later I got

542
00:26:34,942 --> 00:26:36,822
Speaker 1: an email to say that she had been charged with

543
00:26:37,022 --> 00:26:37,902
Speaker 1: unlawful stalking.

544
00:26:38,302 --> 00:26:40,142
Speaker 2: When you contact a police for this third time and

545
00:26:40,182 --> 00:26:42,182
Speaker 2: they started taking it seriously, was that the first time

546
00:26:42,222 --> 00:26:44,182
Speaker 2: the word stalking was used?

547
00:26:44,382 --> 00:26:49,062
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, so I personally hadn't attached that word to

548
00:26:49,342 --> 00:26:51,662
Speaker 1: what was happening, But it was only when I was

549
00:26:51,702 --> 00:26:54,062
Speaker 1: having a conversation with that policewoman and I said, what

550
00:26:54,102 --> 00:26:56,342
Speaker 1: are you trying to achieve as you look into this,

551
00:26:56,382 --> 00:26:58,222
Speaker 1: and she said, I think that we'll probably charge her

552
00:26:58,222 --> 00:27:01,382
Speaker 1: with stalking. And that was when I first realized how

553
00:27:01,422 --> 00:27:03,262
Speaker 1: serious it was, what was happening.

554
00:27:03,582 --> 00:27:06,102
Speaker 2: So that was three years in three years, in three

555
00:27:06,182 --> 00:27:09,542
Speaker 2: years in Carissa gets charged with stalking. I don't know

556
00:27:09,582 --> 00:27:12,222
Speaker 2: if anyone here has been to court, don't recommend, but

557
00:27:12,262 --> 00:27:13,782
Speaker 2: that is also a long process.

558
00:27:14,222 --> 00:27:18,062
Speaker 1: The court hearing didn't actually take place for probably another

559
00:27:18,102 --> 00:27:20,382
Speaker 1: six months because she was able to continue to adjourn

560
00:27:20,422 --> 00:27:22,382
Speaker 1: those initial proceedings.

561
00:27:22,862 --> 00:27:24,502
Speaker 2: Was she contacting you in that six months?

562
00:27:24,582 --> 00:27:26,862
Speaker 1: In that six months, No, that was a really and

563
00:27:27,262 --> 00:27:29,942
Speaker 1: everything got deleted from her pages and it was a

564
00:27:30,022 --> 00:27:32,502
Speaker 1: quiet six months. And that was sort of around the

565
00:27:32,542 --> 00:27:33,542
Speaker 1: time I got married.

566
00:27:33,582 --> 00:27:36,822
Speaker 2: And how did court play out? You had to be there.

567
00:27:37,062 --> 00:27:41,142
Speaker 1: I didn't have to be there because it's essentially police

568
00:27:41,382 --> 00:27:43,702
Speaker 1: charging her, so I don't have to be there. I

569
00:27:43,782 --> 00:27:45,582
Speaker 1: chose to go there. I went there with my mum.

570
00:27:46,142 --> 00:27:49,422
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get that sense of closure around it.

571
00:27:49,742 --> 00:27:51,462
Speaker 1: But it was kind of really nerve wracking because I

572
00:27:51,462 --> 00:27:53,982
Speaker 1: hadn't actually come face to face with her since that

573
00:27:54,062 --> 00:27:54,902
Speaker 1: day at the OH.

574
00:27:54,902 --> 00:27:56,862
Speaker 2: That would have been so nerve wracking. Tell us about

575
00:27:56,902 --> 00:27:57,982
Speaker 2: the moment she walked in.

576
00:27:58,342 --> 00:28:00,822
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was really strange because it was during COVID,

577
00:28:00,822 --> 00:28:03,702
Speaker 1: so we all had masks on, and Mum and I

578
00:28:03,822 --> 00:28:06,022
Speaker 1: sat through an entire day of court proceedings and they

579
00:28:06,062 --> 00:28:09,462
Speaker 1: were all domestic violence cases and it was just interestingly shocking,

580
00:28:09,622 --> 00:28:12,822
Speaker 1: horrible thing to witness in itself. That's the whole other story.

581
00:28:12,862 --> 00:28:15,982
Speaker 1: But so she was the last case of that day.

582
00:28:16,022 --> 00:28:18,982
Speaker 1: So we've been sitting there all day and she walks

583
00:28:18,982 --> 00:28:21,222
Speaker 1: in through the door and literally as she gets to

584
00:28:21,262 --> 00:28:23,142
Speaker 1: my feet, stops, must have sort of clocked that I

585
00:28:23,222 --> 00:28:25,262
Speaker 1: was there and just stares at me for it felt

586
00:28:25,302 --> 00:28:27,422
Speaker 1: like seconds, but it was probably just half a second,

587
00:28:28,182 --> 00:28:30,702
Speaker 1: and then walks on and sits down and she didn't

588
00:28:30,702 --> 00:28:31,462
Speaker 1: turn back after that.

589
00:28:31,542 --> 00:28:32,262
Speaker 2: I didn't feel.

590
00:28:32,382 --> 00:28:36,302
Speaker 1: Yeah, awful. Yeah, it was a really strange feeling, really

591
00:28:36,382 --> 00:28:37,302
Speaker 1: hard to describe.

592
00:28:37,422 --> 00:28:40,102
Speaker 2: This is not the kind of wording that you put

593
00:28:40,102 --> 00:28:41,222
Speaker 2: into court.

594
00:28:41,382 --> 00:28:43,462
Speaker 1: Like, Yeah, it was just sort of like on this

595
00:28:43,582 --> 00:28:44,462
Speaker 1: dodgy piece of paper.

596
00:28:44,542 --> 00:28:46,382
Speaker 2: But going back to the court proceedings where it is

597
00:28:46,422 --> 00:28:50,102
Speaker 2: about caruser, she's been charged, she's before a judge, did

598
00:28:50,142 --> 00:28:51,862
Speaker 2: she try and give a defense? What was her excuse

599
00:28:51,902 --> 00:28:52,382
Speaker 2: to the court.

600
00:28:52,702 --> 00:28:55,942
Speaker 1: It was really awful. Being in court because obviously I'm

601
00:28:55,982 --> 00:28:59,622
Speaker 1: sitting there just listening, and her lawyer on her behalf

602
00:28:59,662 --> 00:29:01,542
Speaker 1: sort of started to give her version of the story,

603
00:29:01,702 --> 00:29:04,262
Speaker 1: which a lot of it was just sort of false

604
00:29:04,302 --> 00:29:06,622
Speaker 1: things anyway, So I could feel my heart beating and

605
00:29:06,662 --> 00:29:08,862
Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do about it. But she sort

606
00:29:08,862 --> 00:29:11,982
Speaker 1: of justified it as she was like hurt person and

607
00:29:12,182 --> 00:29:14,982
Speaker 1: was just reacting to that and tried to sort of

608
00:29:15,502 --> 00:29:19,142
Speaker 1: just really diminish it. But I was very fortunate that

609
00:29:19,342 --> 00:29:22,102
Speaker 1: the judge that was there that day was very dismissive

610
00:29:22,142 --> 00:29:25,702
Speaker 1: of her and really supportive of what I had written

611
00:29:25,742 --> 00:29:28,142
Speaker 1: in my victim impact statement and ultimately asked me a

612
00:29:28,182 --> 00:29:30,462
Speaker 1: couple of questions on the day, which was really nerve wracking,

613
00:29:30,582 --> 00:29:33,782
Speaker 1: but it was also really positive in the end because

614
00:29:33,782 --> 00:29:36,222
Speaker 1: I was able to articulate things a lot better than

615
00:29:36,222 --> 00:29:37,582
Speaker 1: the prosecutor on the day.

616
00:29:38,182 --> 00:29:41,022
Speaker 2: Well, the prosecutor hadn't even kind of put forward a

617
00:29:41,062 --> 00:29:43,222
Speaker 2: desire or like spoken to you about what.

618
00:29:43,342 --> 00:29:46,862
Speaker 1: Nah Don it was like. To be honest, the entire

619
00:29:46,942 --> 00:29:49,582
Speaker 1: day of court was a fiarsceco in my opinion, Like

620
00:29:49,622 --> 00:29:52,382
Speaker 1: there was including all the cases before mine, all these

621
00:29:52,422 --> 00:29:55,382
Speaker 1: domestic violence cases, and I can see why there's such

622
00:29:55,462 --> 00:30:00,182
Speaker 1: terrible outcomes for women all the time. But yeah, the prosecutors,

623
00:30:00,182 --> 00:30:01,782
Speaker 1: I think the police do all this work and then

624
00:30:01,822 --> 00:30:03,902
Speaker 1: they handed it over and it's up to the prosecutor

625
00:30:03,942 --> 00:30:06,222
Speaker 1: how much they read and how much they put forward

626
00:30:06,222 --> 00:30:09,582
Speaker 1: on the day, and mine put very little, but the

627
00:30:09,702 --> 00:30:12,742
Speaker 1: judge was very open to hearing more. Yeah, ultimately, she

628
00:30:13,062 --> 00:30:14,942
Speaker 1: was the one that recommended the restraining order.

629
00:30:15,062 --> 00:30:16,822
Speaker 2: So what was the sentence? She got a two year

630
00:30:16,862 --> 00:30:17,622
Speaker 2: restraining order.

631
00:30:17,862 --> 00:30:19,662
Speaker 1: She got a two year restraining order and a two

632
00:30:19,742 --> 00:30:22,422
Speaker 1: year probation order. So ultimately she pleaded guilty and that

633
00:30:22,502 --> 00:30:23,742
Speaker 1: was the sentence that she got.

634
00:30:23,782 --> 00:30:24,542
Speaker 2: Were you happy with that?

635
00:30:24,822 --> 00:30:27,382
Speaker 1: Well, yes or no? Obviously, when you go through something

636
00:30:27,462 --> 00:30:29,422
Speaker 1: like that, I think everyone would hope for a more

637
00:30:29,982 --> 00:30:34,542
Speaker 1: serious consequence. But having been sitting there all that day,

638
00:30:34,982 --> 00:30:38,422
Speaker 1: the five or six men that went before her who

639
00:30:38,422 --> 00:30:42,182
Speaker 1: had breached domestic violence orders in really really serious ways,

640
00:30:42,222 --> 00:30:45,622
Speaker 1: and often multiple times, none of those people got jail time,

641
00:30:45,702 --> 00:30:48,662
Speaker 1: And the maximum sentence that was given out that day

642
00:30:48,702 --> 00:30:50,982
Speaker 1: was a two year probation order. So with that in mind,

643
00:30:51,302 --> 00:30:51,942
Speaker 1: I was happy.

644
00:30:52,542 --> 00:30:54,982
Speaker 2: So you probably won't have been expecting that, No, you'll

645
00:30:54,982 --> 00:30:57,062
Speaker 2: probably expected Oh no, yeah, yeah, I said to my

646
00:30:57,142 --> 00:31:00,102
Speaker 2: mum we are going to be laughed out of this place, like, well,

647
00:31:00,142 --> 00:31:02,782
Speaker 2: thank goodness you weren't. No, did it work? Did she

648
00:31:02,782 --> 00:31:03,662
Speaker 2: stop contacting you?

649
00:31:04,062 --> 00:31:06,022
Speaker 1: Well, she couldn't contact me at all for two years

650
00:31:06,142 --> 00:31:08,142
Speaker 1: or post anything about me, or come near my home

651
00:31:08,262 --> 00:31:10,862
Speaker 1: or anything like that, and those things were all adhered

652
00:31:10,902 --> 00:31:12,022
Speaker 1: to to my knowledge.

653
00:31:12,542 --> 00:31:12,942
Speaker 2: I guess.

654
00:31:13,022 --> 00:31:16,222
Speaker 1: The thing about stalking is that because it goes for

655
00:31:16,302 --> 00:31:20,782
Speaker 1: such a prolonged period of time before anything happens, there's

656
00:31:20,822 --> 00:31:24,142
Speaker 1: a lot of time to kind of develop almost a language,

657
00:31:24,182 --> 00:31:26,542
Speaker 1: a shared language between the two of you, so that

658
00:31:26,622 --> 00:31:30,022
Speaker 1: by the end you're able to send messages that no

659
00:31:30,062 --> 00:31:34,382
Speaker 1: one else can really decode except you. So the downside

660
00:31:34,422 --> 00:31:38,462
Speaker 1: of that is stalkers can learn over time and with

661
00:31:38,542 --> 00:31:42,062
Speaker 1: these legal proceedings that happen, how to send their messages

662
00:31:42,102 --> 00:31:44,822
Speaker 1: without breaking any laws, if that makes sense.

663
00:31:44,822 --> 00:31:47,502
Speaker 2: So she was doing that, yeah, how like with Instagram

664
00:31:47,542 --> 00:31:50,302
Speaker 2: posts that weren't tagging you, that were subtle.

665
00:31:50,182 --> 00:31:52,982
Speaker 1: Yeah, correct, I mean, and they certainly died off for

666
00:31:53,022 --> 00:31:54,782
Speaker 1: a really long time. So she closed down all the

667
00:31:54,862 --> 00:31:56,942
Speaker 1: social media for a little while. There was an article

668
00:31:56,982 --> 00:31:59,302
Speaker 1: that went into the paper after that course.

669
00:31:59,142 --> 00:31:59,822
Speaker 2: About her face.

670
00:31:59,942 --> 00:32:02,662
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was obviously a journalist in the core room,

671
00:32:03,222 --> 00:32:04,662
Speaker 1: nothing to do with me. It was just we saw

672
00:32:04,702 --> 00:32:07,462
Speaker 1: it the next day, and yeah, everything shut down and

673
00:32:07,502 --> 00:32:09,982
Speaker 1: it went quiet for quite a while. But yeah, over time,

674
00:32:10,462 --> 00:32:12,382
Speaker 1: posts did start to come back, and she did find

675
00:32:12,382 --> 00:32:13,902
Speaker 1: ways to let me know that she's still there and

676
00:32:13,942 --> 00:32:16,182
Speaker 1: aware of what I'm doing.

677
00:32:27,582 --> 00:32:30,302
Speaker 2: You've written a book on your experience, and you didn't

678
00:32:30,342 --> 00:32:32,102
Speaker 2: just look at your own experience. You kind of looked

679
00:32:32,102 --> 00:32:36,102
Speaker 2: at stalking more broadly across Australia. What did you discover

680
00:32:36,182 --> 00:32:38,822
Speaker 2: about it? How common is it? Is it men? Is

681
00:32:38,822 --> 00:32:39,222
Speaker 2: it women?

682
00:32:39,862 --> 00:32:42,702
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's really common. So about twenty five percent

683
00:32:42,742 --> 00:32:45,102
Speaker 1: of women will be stalked at some stage in their

684
00:32:45,102 --> 00:32:48,422
Speaker 1: life and about one in eight men. I wanted to

685
00:32:48,462 --> 00:32:51,862
Speaker 1: research it because I think, you know, I was really intrigued,

686
00:32:51,942 --> 00:32:55,742
Speaker 1: I suppose, at the purpose behind it and what motivates

687
00:32:55,782 --> 00:32:58,222
Speaker 1: someone to do this for such a long period of time.

688
00:32:58,262 --> 00:33:01,222
Speaker 1: In my case, obviously in the beginning, it seemed like

689
00:33:01,382 --> 00:33:03,942
Speaker 1: she just wants to break up a relationship. But after

690
00:33:04,022 --> 00:33:06,262
Speaker 1: quite a long period of time, when that was sort

691
00:33:06,262 --> 00:33:10,062
Speaker 1: of we were well past that stage, she didn't stop

692
00:33:10,102 --> 00:33:13,742
Speaker 1: and seemed more intent than ever to try to cause trouble.

693
00:33:13,782 --> 00:33:16,302
Speaker 1: But I've just sort of always wondered, like what needs

694
00:33:16,302 --> 00:33:19,502
Speaker 1: to happen to me for this to stop? Like what

695
00:33:19,622 --> 00:33:21,902
Speaker 1: needs to happen? Like you know, So that's why I

696
00:33:21,902 --> 00:33:25,102
Speaker 1: investigated it. But I think, yeah, it's a really really

697
00:33:25,542 --> 00:33:28,662
Speaker 1: common crime. And what's also common is that people don't

698
00:33:28,702 --> 00:33:30,462
Speaker 1: talk about it. They keep it to themselves.

699
00:33:30,822 --> 00:33:33,742
Speaker 2: Well, there are many different types of stalkers and I

700
00:33:33,782 --> 00:33:35,902
Speaker 2: want to touch on a few of them. To start

701
00:33:35,902 --> 00:33:39,462
Speaker 2: with Carisa, an expert told you after you told your

702
00:33:39,462 --> 00:33:42,982
Speaker 2: story that she was what you would call a resentful stalker. Yes,

703
00:33:43,342 --> 00:33:44,022
Speaker 2: what does that mean?

704
00:33:44,222 --> 00:33:47,902
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there are five different typologies and they were

705
00:33:47,942 --> 00:33:51,662
Speaker 1: developed by an Australian professor actually, but they're generally considered

706
00:33:51,662 --> 00:33:55,582
Speaker 1: worldwide now. So a resentful stalker is someone who's stalking

707
00:33:55,582 --> 00:33:58,902
Speaker 1: for the purpose of revenge or retribution. So they feel

708
00:33:58,982 --> 00:34:03,022
Speaker 1: angry basically about something, and their goal in their stalking

709
00:34:03,222 --> 00:34:05,582
Speaker 1: is to cause damage to that other.

710
00:34:05,462 --> 00:34:07,462
Speaker 2: Person and take us through the other four quickly.

711
00:34:07,782 --> 00:34:10,262
Speaker 1: So there's the rejected stalker, which is a really common

712
00:34:10,622 --> 00:34:13,942
Speaker 1: found stalking in domestic violence cases. So someone who's been

713
00:34:13,982 --> 00:34:16,662
Speaker 1: rejected in some way, whether that be most commonly by

714
00:34:16,662 --> 00:34:19,102
Speaker 1: a partner, but it could be by a workplace, they've

715
00:34:19,102 --> 00:34:21,502
Speaker 1: been lost their job or something like that. So their

716
00:34:22,222 --> 00:34:26,302
Speaker 1: goal in their stalking is to rekindle that relationship, but

717
00:34:26,382 --> 00:34:29,982
Speaker 1: that can often then develop into a sort of resentful

718
00:34:30,102 --> 00:34:33,302
Speaker 1: response anyway, because if they don't get that reconciliation that

719
00:34:33,302 --> 00:34:37,102
Speaker 1: they're after, then they become angry. Another type is what

720
00:34:37,262 --> 00:34:40,822
Speaker 1: is known as an incompetent suitor. That's someone who you'd

721
00:34:40,822 --> 00:34:44,742
Speaker 1: find stalking a celebrity or someone of a higher status,

722
00:34:44,782 --> 00:34:47,862
Speaker 1: and it's more commonly associated with people with mental illnesses

723
00:34:47,862 --> 00:34:50,142
Speaker 1: and things like that, because they've sort of conjured up

724
00:34:50,222 --> 00:34:53,062
Speaker 1: a relationship in their mind and might feel like the

725
00:34:53,142 --> 00:34:55,582
Speaker 1: queen is also in love with them, or sort of

726
00:34:55,582 --> 00:34:57,702
Speaker 1: the man who stalked Delta good Room who believed that

727
00:34:57,702 --> 00:34:58,262
Speaker 1: they were in.

728
00:34:58,182 --> 00:35:00,022
Speaker 2: Some which is a kind of stalking that we would

729
00:35:00,062 --> 00:35:01,222
Speaker 2: see a lot of headlines about.

730
00:35:01,342 --> 00:35:03,502
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, that's the kind that people tend to

731
00:35:03,542 --> 00:35:06,582
Speaker 1: think of. Then there is one called the intimacy seeker,

732
00:35:06,622 --> 00:35:08,782
Speaker 1: and that is basically someone who's met someone and they

733
00:35:08,822 --> 00:35:11,702
Speaker 1: want to either sleep with them or start a relationship

734
00:35:11,702 --> 00:35:14,742
Speaker 1: with them, and that stalking might be more short term,

735
00:35:14,902 --> 00:35:17,622
Speaker 1: so they're just harassing that person and stalking them over

736
00:35:17,622 --> 00:35:19,902
Speaker 1: a shorter period of time, and then the final one

737
00:35:19,942 --> 00:35:22,622
Speaker 1: is the predatory stalker, which we also see in movies,

738
00:35:22,942 --> 00:35:25,942
Speaker 1: which might be a stranger who literally is hiding around

739
00:35:25,982 --> 00:35:28,462
Speaker 1: in the bushes and is more likely to ultimately lead

740
00:35:28,462 --> 00:35:29,342
Speaker 1: to a physical.

741
00:35:29,022 --> 00:35:32,742
Speaker 2: Attack, which probably is not as common, far less common. Yeah, yeah,

742
00:35:32,782 --> 00:35:36,062
Speaker 2: and you've kind of alluded to this, but stalking is

743
00:35:36,102 --> 00:35:40,022
Speaker 2: a precursor or it exists in pretty much all domestic

744
00:35:40,102 --> 00:35:42,342
Speaker 2: violence cases or a lot of domestic violence cases. And

745
00:35:42,382 --> 00:35:44,902
Speaker 2: some of the most famous that you might remember in

746
00:35:44,902 --> 00:35:48,142
Speaker 2: the audience is Hannah Clark. Hannah Clark, she had stalking

747
00:35:48,142 --> 00:35:50,262
Speaker 2: as part of her case. Celeste mannow, which was a

748
00:35:50,262 --> 00:35:53,942
Speaker 2: Sydney woman. Yeah, all have stalking as part of their story.

749
00:35:54,062 --> 00:35:56,182
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. And those two cases are really interesting

750
00:35:56,222 --> 00:35:59,102
Speaker 1: because in Hannah Clark's case, that was a domestic violence

751
00:35:59,142 --> 00:36:01,582
Speaker 1: case and the stalking that had happened with him was

752
00:36:01,662 --> 00:36:04,982
Speaker 1: quite prolonged, and she had reported those behaviors, but again

753
00:36:05,742 --> 00:36:07,782
Speaker 1: not a lot was done about that, and in domestic

754
00:36:07,862 --> 00:36:13,702
Speaker 1: violence murders, stalking is incredibly common. In Celeste's case, she

755
00:36:13,782 --> 00:36:16,142
Speaker 1: didn't know this man at all. So it's a really

756
00:36:16,182 --> 00:36:19,822
Speaker 1: interesting case to look at for non domestic violence stalking,

757
00:36:19,862 --> 00:36:23,182
Speaker 1: which is an element of stalking in Australia in particular,

758
00:36:23,782 --> 00:36:25,942
Speaker 1: that's not really looked at, and there are not a

759
00:36:25,942 --> 00:36:28,502
Speaker 1: lot of protections or support for people who are stalked

760
00:36:28,502 --> 00:36:31,542
Speaker 1: from someone who is not a current or former partner.

761
00:36:31,862 --> 00:36:34,782
Speaker 2: What really shocked me, which I found out in your book,

762
00:36:35,302 --> 00:36:38,422
Speaker 2: is that stalking only became ilegal in Australia in nineteen

763
00:36:38,502 --> 00:36:39,222
Speaker 2: ninety three.

764
00:36:39,382 --> 00:36:42,862
Speaker 1: I interviewed the expert who developed those five typologies, Paul Mullen,

765
00:36:43,462 --> 00:36:46,062
Speaker 1: and he sort of described it as an old behavior

766
00:36:46,062 --> 00:36:47,382
Speaker 1: but a new crime.

767
00:36:47,342 --> 00:36:50,062
Speaker 2: An old behavior but a new crime. Well, I guess

768
00:36:50,582 --> 00:36:54,302
Speaker 2: the woman who stalked you used technology. So as technology

769
00:36:54,982 --> 00:36:56,302
Speaker 2: escalated everything.

770
00:36:56,102 --> 00:37:00,302
Speaker 1: It's changed it and made it easier, and it's enabled

771
00:37:00,342 --> 00:37:03,262
Speaker 1: people to be anonymous, I guess, and get away with

772
00:37:03,302 --> 00:37:05,702
Speaker 1: a lot more so it's easier. On top of that,

773
00:37:05,822 --> 00:37:11,142
Speaker 1: it's enabled people to engage in those behaviors far more frequently.

774
00:37:11,262 --> 00:37:16,622
Speaker 1: So during COVID stalking escalated quite dramatically the research. Yeah,

775
00:37:16,662 --> 00:37:18,702
Speaker 1: and that's because I guess people have more time on

776
00:37:18,742 --> 00:37:21,502
Speaker 1: their hands and they can do it to stalk. Yeah,

777
00:37:21,542 --> 00:37:24,422
Speaker 1: they can do it. So because interestingly, like in my

778
00:37:24,502 --> 00:37:26,742
Speaker 1: case as well, when you see the text or the

779
00:37:26,742 --> 00:37:30,422
Speaker 1: comments or whatever it is, it's however they're communicating, there's

780
00:37:30,422 --> 00:37:32,622
Speaker 1: no pattern to it, and it happens at all times

781
00:37:32,622 --> 00:37:35,502
Speaker 1: of the day or night, which makes you think, whenever

782
00:37:35,582 --> 00:37:38,822
Speaker 1: this person has free time, this is what they're engaging in.

783
00:37:38,942 --> 00:37:41,822
Speaker 1: So in times like COVID, if you've got someone who's

784
00:37:41,902 --> 00:37:45,382
Speaker 1: developed an obsession of some kind, there's all this time

785
00:37:45,462 --> 00:37:49,342
Speaker 1: for that obsession to mushroom and grow and expand, and

786
00:37:49,382 --> 00:37:51,942
Speaker 1: technology allows us to do that at any time of day.

787
00:37:52,462 --> 00:37:57,622
Speaker 2: You have interviewed dozens, probably hundreds to nearly of victim

788
00:37:57,662 --> 00:38:01,662
Speaker 2: survivors who have all had different stories within those five categories.

789
00:38:02,622 --> 00:38:07,022
Speaker 2: How many of those have actually seen convictions very few.

790
00:38:07,422 --> 00:38:10,622
Speaker 1: It's very difficult to get a conviction for a number

791
00:38:10,662 --> 00:38:13,262
Speaker 1: of reasons. So stalking is illegal, it is a crime,

792
00:38:13,302 --> 00:38:15,622
Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to do it, but it's really

793
00:38:15,702 --> 00:38:20,142
Speaker 1: difficult to prove, and there's not a lot of understanding

794
00:38:20,262 --> 00:38:23,262
Speaker 1: about what it is and the nuances around it within

795
00:38:23,302 --> 00:38:26,462
Speaker 1: the community or within the police force as well, because

796
00:38:27,222 --> 00:38:29,862
Speaker 1: and this again I'm sort of paraphrasing what the experts

797
00:38:29,862 --> 00:38:31,782
Speaker 1: have told me here, but when it comes to police,

798
00:38:31,822 --> 00:38:34,262
Speaker 1: you know, they're sort of used to dealing with crimes

799
00:38:34,302 --> 00:38:38,062
Speaker 1: that have happened, whereas stalking is a crime that's ongoing,

800
00:38:38,502 --> 00:38:41,742
Speaker 1: and it's made up of a series of often legal

801
00:38:41,862 --> 00:38:47,182
Speaker 1: behaviors that in isolation, aren't particularly alarming. So if you

802
00:38:47,262 --> 00:38:51,102
Speaker 1: go in to report unwanted flowers at your door, for example,

803
00:38:51,502 --> 00:38:54,822
Speaker 1: you'll probably get told make a note of things, keep

804
00:38:54,822 --> 00:38:56,742
Speaker 1: a diary, and all of that. So if you go

805
00:38:56,742 --> 00:38:58,382
Speaker 1: ahead and do that and then you go back to

806
00:38:58,422 --> 00:39:02,102
Speaker 1: the police station and it's a different police officer, you're

807
00:39:02,102 --> 00:39:04,742
Speaker 1: going to get the same kind of response. So without

808
00:39:04,822 --> 00:39:08,142
Speaker 1: that education and guidance, there's really not a lot of

809
00:39:08,182 --> 00:39:12,582
Speaker 1: support for those victims. All about documentation, It's very much

810
00:39:12,582 --> 00:39:16,542
Speaker 1: about documentation. I think attitudes also play into this as well,

811
00:39:16,582 --> 00:39:19,902
Speaker 1: because all the research shows that generally society of vieuse

812
00:39:19,902 --> 00:39:23,182
Speaker 1: stalking as something that's either not very serious, possibly a

813
00:39:23,182 --> 00:39:27,102
Speaker 1: bit romantic, and often victims are to blame in some

814
00:39:27,302 --> 00:39:29,622
Speaker 1: way because of their behavior or what they are or

815
00:39:29,662 --> 00:39:33,982
Speaker 1: aren't doing. So with all of that, it just makes

816
00:39:34,022 --> 00:39:36,302
Speaker 1: for a really difficult situation.

817
00:39:36,902 --> 00:39:40,622
Speaker 2: Who's watched Baby Reindeer on Netflix? Yeah, the Whole Room.

818
00:39:41,262 --> 00:39:43,462
Speaker 2: It was the top grossing on Netflix for a reason.

819
00:39:44,142 --> 00:39:46,342
Speaker 2: If you forget what it was about. It was the

820
00:39:46,382 --> 00:39:49,902
Speaker 2: true story of a barman slash comedian who was stalked

821
00:39:49,942 --> 00:39:53,102
Speaker 2: by a patron, and you've described that show as a

822
00:39:53,142 --> 00:39:57,022
Speaker 2: masterclass in stalking. Expand on that. Because there's so much

823
00:39:57,142 --> 00:40:00,302
Speaker 2: content out there, often the predatory stalking is on screen,

824
00:40:00,782 --> 00:40:03,582
Speaker 2: why were you so impressed by this depiction.

825
00:40:04,022 --> 00:40:06,702
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've watched a lot of movies about stalking, and

826
00:40:06,742 --> 00:40:08,742
Speaker 1: that I mean that everyone likes to watch them. They're

827
00:40:08,782 --> 00:40:11,862
Speaker 1: interesting to watch, and there's always a real sameness about

828
00:40:11,902 --> 00:40:14,862
Speaker 1: them when there's either a really scary male stalker or

829
00:40:14,942 --> 00:40:18,702
Speaker 1: a you know, really unhinged female stalker who ultimately they

830
00:40:18,782 --> 00:40:21,382
Speaker 1: end up getting physically violent at the end. When I

831
00:40:21,422 --> 00:40:24,022
Speaker 1: saw the first opening scene of Baby Reindeer where he

832
00:40:24,102 --> 00:40:26,942
Speaker 1: goes into the police station, he's sort of embarrassed and

833
00:40:26,982 --> 00:40:29,062
Speaker 1: he's got that sort of coy look on his face.

834
00:40:29,702 --> 00:40:32,102
Speaker 1: Then he shows a message and it says something like

835
00:40:32,382 --> 00:40:35,582
Speaker 1: I ate an egg, and the police officers looking at

836
00:40:35,622 --> 00:40:38,982
Speaker 1: him like what are you doing here and why did

837
00:40:39,062 --> 00:40:40,782
Speaker 1: you wait so long to come in? So as soon

838
00:40:40,822 --> 00:40:42,982
Speaker 1: as I saw that opening scene, I'm like, this is

839
00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:46,222
Speaker 1: a realistic depiction of stalking. His face, the police reaction,

840
00:40:46,342 --> 00:40:49,662
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and I think the way that played

841
00:40:49,702 --> 00:40:53,302
Speaker 1: out where he was so honest with his mixed emotions.

842
00:40:53,422 --> 00:40:56,702
Speaker 1: So until you know someone's stalking you, you don't know

843
00:40:56,742 --> 00:40:59,262
Speaker 1: they're going to stalk you. So it may take weeks,

844
00:40:59,262 --> 00:41:01,262
Speaker 1: it could take months, It could take years before you

845
00:41:01,302 --> 00:41:04,662
Speaker 1: suddenly go, I'm scared now. It just depends on the situation.

846
00:41:04,782 --> 00:41:06,702
Speaker 1: So I think he articulated that really well.

847
00:41:06,942 --> 00:41:09,142
Speaker 2: And I mean we showed the text messages at the start.

848
00:41:09,222 --> 00:41:12,622
Speaker 2: You could see that they were so similar to the

849
00:41:12,702 --> 00:41:17,822
Speaker 2: kind of wording and like lower case, and like the strangeness, just.

850
00:41:17,782 --> 00:41:21,302
Speaker 1: The strangeness of it, and being able to send a

851
00:41:21,342 --> 00:41:23,942
Speaker 1: message without sending a message. The longer it goes on.

852
00:41:24,262 --> 00:41:27,782
Speaker 1: In his case, after six months, she might write, you

853
00:41:27,782 --> 00:41:30,182
Speaker 1: know something that seems innocuous to somebody else, but he

854
00:41:30,262 --> 00:41:31,182
Speaker 1: knows what it means.

855
00:41:31,462 --> 00:41:33,862
Speaker 2: I want to give some positive things that have happened

856
00:41:33,902 --> 00:41:36,142
Speaker 2: in the world of stalking, because we've done a lot

857
00:41:36,182 --> 00:41:40,902
Speaker 2: of negativity. Coercive control laws they've recently passed in Queensland,

858
00:41:41,582 --> 00:41:43,502
Speaker 2: how are they going to help this kind of thing.

859
00:41:43,942 --> 00:41:46,902
Speaker 1: There's a lot of similarities between coercive control and stalking,

860
00:41:46,942 --> 00:41:49,862
Speaker 1: and I think the biggest similarity is the fact that

861
00:41:50,222 --> 00:41:53,342
Speaker 1: it's a series of behaviors, often legal behaviors and patterns

862
00:41:53,342 --> 00:41:56,542
Speaker 1: of behaviors, and those laws that have come into play,

863
00:41:56,662 --> 00:41:59,622
Speaker 1: I think really are a direct result of people talking

864
00:41:59,742 --> 00:42:03,582
Speaker 1: more and sharing stories and speaking out about it. So

865
00:42:03,622 --> 00:42:07,342
Speaker 1: the more people understand and are educated, the more change

866
00:42:07,382 --> 00:42:09,302
Speaker 1: that happens. I guess, you know, in terms of stalking,

867
00:42:09,342 --> 00:42:12,822
Speaker 1: though it is already a it's just awareness and attitudes

868
00:42:12,862 --> 00:42:13,862
Speaker 1: that need to change.

869
00:42:14,062 --> 00:42:17,862
Speaker 2: Aaron Mullin, media commentator, she's also done a lot in

870
00:42:17,942 --> 00:42:18,422
Speaker 2: this space.

871
00:42:18,822 --> 00:42:21,582
Speaker 1: Yeah, again, really similar. So her main focus was trolling,

872
00:42:21,822 --> 00:42:24,582
Speaker 1: which has a lot of similarities to stalking because it's

873
00:42:24,582 --> 00:42:28,262
Speaker 1: often done online and people, again, they underestimate the impact

874
00:42:28,822 --> 00:42:31,022
Speaker 1: of stalking, so I think and trolling as well. And

875
00:42:31,062 --> 00:42:34,862
Speaker 1: I think she did an incredible job of talking about

876
00:42:34,902 --> 00:42:36,942
Speaker 1: how much it impacted her in the face of a

877
00:42:36,942 --> 00:42:40,382
Speaker 1: lot of ridicule and you know, the embarrassment and humiliation

878
00:42:40,462 --> 00:42:44,582
Speaker 1: that comes around talking about it, because both stalking and trolling,

879
00:42:44,782 --> 00:42:47,622
Speaker 1: it's often very distasteful content and it's not something that

880
00:42:47,702 --> 00:42:49,702
Speaker 1: a lot of people feel comfortable talking about.

881
00:42:49,942 --> 00:42:51,742
Speaker 2: So it's like we're getting there with little bits.

882
00:42:51,982 --> 00:42:54,142
Speaker 1: We're getting there, I think, And yeah, I think we're

883
00:42:54,142 --> 00:42:56,262
Speaker 1: talking about stalking a lot. I mean, I've seen it

884
00:42:56,262 --> 00:42:58,262
Speaker 1: talked about a lot more in the last couple of years,

885
00:42:58,302 --> 00:43:01,142
Speaker 1: and particularly in relation to domestic violence.

886
00:43:01,622 --> 00:43:06,622
Speaker 2: Cris's restraining order expired in early twenty twenty four. Were

887
00:43:06,622 --> 00:43:07,182
Speaker 2: you nervous?

888
00:43:07,782 --> 00:43:11,622
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was really nervous because I'd been made aware

889
00:43:11,702 --> 00:43:14,862
Speaker 1: of sort of like a little countdown that she'd set

890
00:43:14,942 --> 00:43:18,262
Speaker 1: up on social media that wasn't specific, like I wasn't

891
00:43:18,262 --> 00:43:20,462
Speaker 1: mentioned or anything like that, but the date was mentioned,

892
00:43:20,982 --> 00:43:23,142
Speaker 1: so I was aware that it was coming up, and

893
00:43:23,182 --> 00:43:24,942
Speaker 1: that she was aware it was coming up, So I

894
00:43:25,022 --> 00:43:25,822
Speaker 1: was conscious of it.

895
00:43:26,182 --> 00:43:28,822
Speaker 2: And when that date did come up, what happened or

896
00:43:28,822 --> 00:43:31,022
Speaker 2: what's happened since? Is she contacting you?

897
00:43:31,062 --> 00:43:33,582
Speaker 1: No, she's not contacting me at all. So direct contact

898
00:43:33,702 --> 00:43:38,622
Speaker 1: has stopped, and public posts or anything that directly mentioned me,

899
00:43:38,702 --> 00:43:40,542
Speaker 1: those things have all stopped. So that's been a really

900
00:43:40,542 --> 00:43:43,702
Speaker 1: positive outcome of all of this. There's two elements, I guess,

901
00:43:43,742 --> 00:43:46,822
Speaker 1: to my experience, one was just the fear of the

902
00:43:46,822 --> 00:43:50,422
Speaker 1: public humiliation that came with it and being constantly harassed

903
00:43:50,462 --> 00:43:52,662
Speaker 1: all the time, So that has stopped. But they have

904
00:43:52,822 --> 00:43:56,862
Speaker 1: been social media posts and similar things like that that

905
00:43:56,982 --> 00:44:00,342
Speaker 1: have let me know that she's still watching what I'm doing.

906
00:44:00,382 --> 00:44:02,862
Speaker 1: And I guess the most significant thing that has happened

907
00:44:02,862 --> 00:44:04,542
Speaker 1: since then was a post she put out saying that

908
00:44:04,582 --> 00:44:07,742
Speaker 1: she was moving to the street that was adjacent to mine,

909
00:44:08,382 --> 00:44:11,182
Speaker 1: naming the street online, and that sort of yeah made

910
00:44:11,222 --> 00:44:11,742
Speaker 1: me anxious.

911
00:44:11,742 --> 00:44:14,102
Speaker 2: Of course, do you think she's moved or was it

912
00:44:14,142 --> 00:44:14,542
Speaker 2: a threat?

913
00:44:14,742 --> 00:44:17,182
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't I have any evidence to

914
00:44:17,222 --> 00:44:19,862
Speaker 1: suggest that she has moved into the area. But what

915
00:44:20,182 --> 00:44:23,062
Speaker 1: it has caused for me is that, not knowing, she

916
00:44:23,102 --> 00:44:25,422
Speaker 1: went as far as posting a photo of a menu

917
00:44:25,462 --> 00:44:29,062
Speaker 1: from a local takeaway store, So there's some effort that's

918
00:44:29,102 --> 00:44:32,342
Speaker 1: gone into that. So even though it's not public or

919
00:44:32,342 --> 00:44:36,022
Speaker 1: it's not direct, I still am aware that there's a

920
00:44:36,062 --> 00:44:39,342
Speaker 1: person out there still fixating on this six years later,

921
00:44:39,382 --> 00:44:42,702
Speaker 1: and it's a really uncomfortable and seek disconcerted.

922
00:44:42,102 --> 00:44:45,102
Speaker 2: Feeling, and like you didn't know this woman. It's just

923
00:44:45,222 --> 00:44:49,182
Speaker 2: wild to try and comprehend. Does it make your experience

924
00:44:49,582 --> 00:44:52,102
Speaker 2: now that she's still doing it different though, because you are.

925
00:44:52,542 --> 00:44:54,942
Speaker 2: When it first happened to you, you were very isolated. You

926
00:44:54,942 --> 00:44:57,142
Speaker 2: weren't telling anyone apart from your partner and your mum.

927
00:44:57,702 --> 00:45:00,422
Speaker 2: But now you're sitting on a stage talking to people,

928
00:45:00,862 --> 00:45:03,222
Speaker 2: You've got a book. When you do stuff like this,

929
00:45:03,302 --> 00:45:06,302
Speaker 2: Does it make you nervous that she's gonna kind of

930
00:45:06,382 --> 00:45:08,102
Speaker 2: give you a barrage of messages or.

931
00:45:08,662 --> 00:45:11,422
Speaker 1: It's really strange because I've been that a lot, especially

932
00:45:11,462 --> 00:45:14,422
Speaker 1: since I wrote the book. This is my experience only

933
00:45:14,422 --> 00:45:17,782
Speaker 1: because I'm always very conscious of people's safety, so everybody's

934
00:45:17,822 --> 00:45:20,062
Speaker 1: experience is going to be different. And for some people,

935
00:45:20,142 --> 00:45:24,222
Speaker 1: speaking publicly about things can be dangerous, and we've unfortunately

936
00:45:24,262 --> 00:45:27,342
Speaker 1: seen that sometimes, as we know with domestic violence, where

937
00:45:27,382 --> 00:45:31,742
Speaker 1: people leave their relationships, it's the most dangerous time. But

938
00:45:31,822 --> 00:45:34,062
Speaker 1: at the same time, that doesn't mean we encourage people

939
00:45:34,342 --> 00:45:38,102
Speaker 1: to stay either. So it's complicated. But in my case,

940
00:45:38,422 --> 00:45:43,062
Speaker 1: since I stopped being silent and alone, it's reduced things

941
00:45:43,062 --> 00:45:44,982
Speaker 1: for me and it's empowered me a lot as well.

942
00:45:45,022 --> 00:45:48,302
Speaker 1: And I think I've been contacted by dozens and dozens

943
00:45:48,302 --> 00:45:52,142
Speaker 1: of people who have had similar experiences, and they report

944
00:45:52,182 --> 00:45:56,462
Speaker 1: feeling so much better having read about someone else's experience,

945
00:45:56,502 --> 00:45:59,102
Speaker 1: but they're also giving that same validation to me. And

946
00:45:59,142 --> 00:46:02,982
Speaker 1: I've been fortunate enough to have that many people validate

947
00:46:03,062 --> 00:46:04,902
Speaker 1: how I feel. And I think there is a strength

948
00:46:04,902 --> 00:46:09,422
Speaker 1: in numbers, and when we're all talking about things publicly,

949
00:46:09,942 --> 00:46:13,502
Speaker 1: that takes away the power of perpetrators who thrive off

950
00:46:13,782 --> 00:46:14,982
Speaker 1: fear and silence.

951
00:46:15,542 --> 00:46:17,302
Speaker 2: What would your advice be if there was anyone in

952
00:46:17,302 --> 00:46:20,182
Speaker 2: this audience that is at the early stages and they

953
00:46:20,182 --> 00:46:22,222
Speaker 2: think they might be getting stalked, what would you say

954
00:46:22,462 --> 00:46:25,622
Speaker 2: to them to try and nip this in the bud early.

955
00:46:26,022 --> 00:46:28,382
Speaker 1: Yeah, two really important things. The first thing is to

956
00:46:29,022 --> 00:46:32,902
Speaker 1: record absolutely everything from the moment you feel uncomfortable, because

957
00:46:32,902 --> 00:46:37,742
Speaker 1: I think importantly nobody can predict that something is going

958
00:46:37,742 --> 00:46:40,302
Speaker 1: to evolve into stalking. Someone might just send you four

959
00:46:40,382 --> 00:46:42,942
Speaker 1: or five nasty messages and you never hear from them again.

960
00:46:43,142 --> 00:46:46,462
Speaker 1: But it's critical to record from the second that you

961
00:46:46,462 --> 00:46:48,502
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable. If you never have to use them, then

962
00:46:48,542 --> 00:46:50,862
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But if it does escalate, you've got

963
00:46:50,862 --> 00:46:53,062
Speaker 1: the evidence to say this is a pattern, because that's

964
00:46:53,102 --> 00:46:56,622
Speaker 1: the critical part of stalking, a pattern of behavior. The

965
00:46:56,742 --> 00:47:00,102
Speaker 1: second thing I would say is to tell somebody, anybody,

966
00:47:00,142 --> 00:47:03,782
Speaker 1: whether it's a friend, a family member, a therapist, or

967
00:47:03,822 --> 00:47:07,862
Speaker 1: the police, Tell somebody. That's for a couple of reasons.

968
00:47:08,382 --> 00:47:11,262
Speaker 1: It will help you, of course anyway, but it's also

969
00:47:11,342 --> 00:47:13,742
Speaker 1: for your own safety. If things do escalate or change

970
00:47:13,782 --> 00:47:16,462
Speaker 1: or evolve, somebody knows that that person is out there,

971
00:47:17,102 --> 00:47:20,382
Speaker 1: and I think secondly to that, when you do tell someone,

972
00:47:20,542 --> 00:47:23,702
Speaker 1: chances are they will be dismissive, but then tell somebody else.

973
00:47:23,862 --> 00:47:26,782
Speaker 1: If you keep talking and telling someone, someone will eventually

974
00:47:27,342 --> 00:47:29,142
Speaker 1: listen to you. And I think that's the main thing

975
00:47:29,182 --> 00:47:29,702
Speaker 1: to remember.

976
00:47:30,422 --> 00:47:32,822
Speaker 2: If you'd like to hear more from Nicole, please go

977
00:47:32,862 --> 00:47:35,222
Speaker 2: and get her book. It's called Obsession. You can get

978
00:47:35,222 --> 00:47:36,862
Speaker 2: it at any good bookstore, or you can listen to

979
00:47:36,902 --> 00:47:40,982
Speaker 2: it on Audible. And if you liked this episode, we've

980
00:47:40,982 --> 00:47:43,382
Speaker 2: got two hundred episodes that you can go and listen

981
00:47:43,862 --> 00:47:46,262
Speaker 2: to on the True Crime Conversation Speed. You can get

982
00:47:46,302 --> 00:47:49,182
Speaker 2: it wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much

983
00:47:49,222 --> 00:47:51,382
Speaker 2: for being here. Thank you so much to Nicole for

984
00:47:51,422 --> 00:48:03,702
Speaker 2: being my guest today.