Speaker 1: You're listening to a mother and me a podcast. Mama
Speaker 1: mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that
Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 2: You know that you're looked at, or that you sort
Speaker 2: of look a certain way. But I didn't kind of
Speaker 2: realize how much of an impact, not just physically, but
Speaker 2: like even like emotionally or like the way that I
Speaker 2: expressed myself was like filtered through some sort of subconscious
Speaker 2: lens of always having to be perceived by others. Right,
Speaker 2: And so when I stopped having to like express myself
Speaker 2: all the time and like, you know, tell people what
Speaker 2: I'm thinking or like you know, talk and like more
Speaker 2: sort of was going in than was going out, Like
Speaker 2: I'm learning more that I'm than I'm you know talking.
Speaker 2: That was kind of like a weird dynamic shift because
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I've gone from like having millions
Speaker 2: of people listen to what I say every week to
Speaker 2: no one, and it's it's pretty lovely.
Speaker 1: I got to say, Hi, I'm Kate Langbrook. Welcome to
Speaker 1: No Filter. Brooke Boney had one of the best gigs
Speaker 1: in the world for years. We woke up with her
Speaker 1: on morning TV. It was a job that changed her
Speaker 1: life until one morning she made a decision that would
Speaker 1: change her life again. She announced live on air on
Speaker 1: the Today Show that she was done not just with
Speaker 1: breakfast television, but with Australia. She was heading overseas to
Speaker 1: study at Oxford, Oxford University. Now Brook has written a book,
Speaker 1: and it covers so much that we had so much
Speaker 1: to cover. Fame, the stalkers, yes, plural sport and associated
Speaker 1: head injuries. I mean that'll make sense soon, her family
Speaker 1: and her dogs. She opens up about fertility and the
Speaker 1: reactions to being the first Indigenous woman on commercial TV
Speaker 1: to diverse for some not diverse enough fathers. We also
Speaker 1: had some fun in this chat. Brooke and I discuss
Speaker 1: whether we're famous enough to get stopped in the supermarket,
Speaker 1: the verdict being that we are not the perceived brave.
Speaker 1: Conversations what it means to be called brave, and how
Speaker 1: life at Oxford has given her ooh a new fancy vocabulary,
Speaker 1: and we talk a lot about sweetness, the sweetness of
Speaker 1: her family, in particular her mother, the sweetness we wish
Speaker 1: the world had more of, and honestly, the refreshing sweetness
Speaker 1: that I feel about Brooke herself. I hope you enjoy
Speaker 1: this conversation as much as I did. Here is Brooke Bony.
Speaker 1: Brooke Bony, Hello, welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 3: Oh thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Now I have your book, which I have read twice.
Speaker 1: You don't buy I don't believe you, because that's so kind.
Speaker 1: That means I probably read it more than you have.
Speaker 3: You definitely have read it more than I have.
Speaker 2: But I do feel like I've read your book a
Speaker 2: couple of times as well, because remember I did the
Speaker 2: interview with you after you did it.
Speaker 1: Yes, Now, this is just kind of strange happening that
Speaker 1: a few years ago at the Sydney Writers' Festival, I
Speaker 1: was my book chow Bella had just come out, and
Speaker 1: I did a session and you were my interviewer.
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's a weird experience when you read someone's
Speaker 2: book that you sort of know publicly, and you know,
Speaker 2: we kind of know each other anyway, yeah, probably, But
Speaker 2: then you get to read what their thoughts are and
Speaker 2: you feel like, oh, I really know this person.
Speaker 1: Now. Yes, it's true.
Speaker 3: It's lovely, isn't it. But it's a bit weird.
Speaker 1: Well, so your book, which is called All of It,
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's ever been a more accurate
Speaker 1: title for a book.
Speaker 3: Like this book.
Speaker 1: There's animals, dogs, beautiful dog, Oh, I love them so much, fertility, ah,
Speaker 1: sport and heat injuries. It's just everything in igeneity.
Speaker 2: Because I think everyone thinks it's just like a straight
Speaker 2: up memoir. And when I try to explain to someone
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, it's just a bunch of essays that
Speaker 2: I've written, the things that I think about all the time,
Speaker 2: care about, and they're like, oh, like what, And I'm like, well, there's.
Speaker 3: One on dogs. There's one on egg freezing. Yes, there's
Speaker 3: one on sports. I love cricket. Yes. But I think
Speaker 3: we are all of.
Speaker 2: Those things, right, Like you know, if I was just
Speaker 2: to focus on like one part of it, then that
Speaker 2: wouldn't be all of it. It'd be some of it.
Speaker 1: No, And then you couldn't call it all of them.
Speaker 3: I'd have to change the title.
Speaker 1: However, you have come to the knowledge of most people
Speaker 1: through breakfast Television, through your stint on Today as a
Speaker 1: showbiz reporter, and in fact, the start of your book
Speaker 1: is you contemplating quitting the show?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: Did you write that in real time or did you
Speaker 1: write that in retrospect and when was that?
Speaker 3: No, I wrote it in real time, so it was
Speaker 3: this time last year, right, And it's so.
Speaker 2: It's so weird to think about now, because you know
Speaker 2: when you make a big decision like that, and you
Speaker 2: know that once once you make it, or once you
Speaker 2: start telling people you can't go.
Speaker 1: Back, no, once it's once it's.
Speaker 2: Done, Yes, it's done. And so I remember thinking like,
Speaker 2: is this really what I'm going to do? Am I
Speaker 2: really going to do this?
Speaker 1: And who had you discussed it with? Because people probably
Speaker 1: know this, but that is primo job that for many people,
Speaker 1: Richard Wilkins, it's the pinnacle, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: So many people people would kill for that job.
Speaker 2: You probably have killed for that job at the cerferent
Speaker 2: stages of the I think when you know that you've
Speaker 2: done as much as what you can possibly do in
Speaker 2: a job, and that you know you can sort of
Speaker 2: see exactly what your life looks like for the next five, ten,
Speaker 2: fifteen years, I think for me, I was like, there's
Speaker 2: so many other things that I want to do.
Speaker 1: Well, because I think you always had this. Maybe I
Speaker 1: think this more from having read your book. I don't
Speaker 1: think this was probably apparent to viewers, but there was
Speaker 1: always like a slight tension within you because being a
Speaker 1: showbiz reporter is this and requires a certain sort of skills,
Speaker 1: which you had in spades, but it also requires a
Speaker 1: limitation of your interest.
Speaker 2: I think like before I was on Triple J, on
Speaker 2: their breakfast show, I was in Parliament House as a
Speaker 2: political reporter for SBS and ITV, and so then to
Speaker 2: go I think, from that really serious news and then
Speaker 2: go and work at ABC and be reporting on Indigenous affairs,
Speaker 2: which is also just so serious and so heavy.
Speaker 3: Then to go and do entertainment.
Speaker 2: It was it felt like such a weird shift for me,
Speaker 2: even though for other people it was like, oh, this
Speaker 2: is a natural fit because she's just come from Triple J.
Speaker 3: Which is you know, the youth popular.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a popular show and you know it's all
Speaker 2: about music and you know, there's a big focus on
Speaker 2: entertainment as well. So it felt like for a lot
Speaker 2: of people it was natural, but for me it felt
Speaker 2: like deeply unnatural in some ways, like there was I
Speaker 2: felt quite limited by doing that, and.
Speaker 1: I think and also intensely commercial, and none of your
Speaker 1: indev prior to that point had been particularly commercial.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: For me that would have always had like an expiry
Speaker 2: date because I felt like even though towards the end,
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 3: Doing news as well, which I absolutely loved, and.
Speaker 2: It's such a great show, and it does stretch you
Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, your technical abilities, you know
Speaker 2: what it's like when you do live TV, and we
Speaker 2: had to do it every day for like three and
Speaker 2: a half hours, and it doesn't matter if there's something
Speaker 2: really big happening, then you stay on air and you're
Speaker 2: sort of you know, flying by the seat of your
Speaker 2: pants or you know, like when we went to the Olympics.
Speaker 3: That's sort of broadcasting.
Speaker 2: People make it look easy, but technically it's so challenging
Speaker 2: because there's so many different environmental factors. You're dealing with
Speaker 2: the elements and with the people around you not knowing
Speaker 2: what they're going to do. But also you have to
Speaker 2: know everything.
Speaker 1: And you have to be able to repeat it without
Speaker 1: repeating it exactly. You have to maintain the relay ships,
Speaker 1: which for people who were getting up at four o'clock
Speaker 1: in the morning, quarter past three, quarter past three.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard.
Speaker 2: And so it's not that it wasn't technically challenging or
Speaker 2: professionally challenging, because it was in lots of ways. But
Speaker 2: I think my idea of myself was really quite different
Speaker 2: from doing entertainment only.
Speaker 1: And what do you think drew their eye to you
Speaker 1: in the first place? How did you get offered that job?
Speaker 3: I remember exactly what it was.
Speaker 2: So when I was on Triple J I did an
Speaker 2: episode of back Roads and I went up to the
Speaker 2: Tiwei Islands, and you know, it's that lovely show where
Speaker 2: they go to the country.
Speaker 1: Beautiful, it's so good. I thought you might have gone
Speaker 1: to Muscle Brook.
Speaker 3: No, I think we were.
Speaker 2: I think we were nearly going to go to somewhere
Speaker 2: like Tamworth or somewhere.
Speaker 1: Around, which is where you're from.
Speaker 3: Up around that area, like in the Upper Hunter Valley.
Speaker 2: We went up to the Tewe's and they have like
Speaker 2: this big pretty carnival and arts festival, and it's so beautiful,
Speaker 2: it's heaven. And they have these these these trans women
Speaker 2: and they're called Sister Girls, and they were they took
Speaker 2: me out bush and we were eating these like gigantic slugs.
Speaker 3: Oh, they're supposed to be like.
Speaker 2: Medicinal and they just sort of like crack open and
Speaker 2: these big pillars of wood and then pulled them out
Speaker 2: and there you go, eat one of these and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, of course, is it like a witchity
Speaker 2: grub but bigger and softer and squishier and without the ridges.
Speaker 2: Without the ridges, it's almost like, yeah, like translucent and
Speaker 2: it's like eats the wood. And so they pull it
Speaker 2: out and then they just like got down the gullet
Speaker 2: and I remember doing it and then just being like yeah,
Speaker 2: and then being like, oh, that's so lovely, thank you,
Speaker 2: because you do want to be disrespectful of people's And
Speaker 2: my boss on today, Burlow, his parents were watching and
Speaker 2: they were like, Oh, you've got to get this girl.
Speaker 3: To come across the Channel nine.
Speaker 2: We just absolutely love her, Like she was so funny
Speaker 2: and you know she was doing all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And if she grabs and so you got the phone call, yeah,
Speaker 1: And where were you at that point in your life?
Speaker 3: So like just personally, emotionally, spiritually.
Speaker 1: Anywhere, physically, all of it, all of it, all of them.
Speaker 3: I think I was ready to move on from Triple J.
Speaker 2: Anyway, I was kind of hoping to get a reprieve
Speaker 2: from the early mornings and then like, so when I
Speaker 2: got the call and I was like, oh, this means
Speaker 2: my life is going to change, because it's one thing
Speaker 2: to be famous, you know, on the Triple J audience
Speaker 2: with the Triple Jen, it's still a huge amount of people.
Speaker 2: It's probably about the same as the Tenay Show audience,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't have all of the tabloid interests, Like
Speaker 2: people don't really care about the lives of the hosts
Speaker 2: in the same way that they do on the Today Show.
Speaker 1: No, that's true.
Speaker 2: You know, like you were you're a celebrity when you're
Speaker 2: on that sho show. Yeah, like the Daily Mail will
Speaker 2: write stories about you, and you know, it's a completely
Speaker 2: different beast. And so I knew my life was going
Speaker 2: to change. I didn't know exactly how. And so I
Speaker 2: kind of spoke to my family and I spoke to
Speaker 2: some friends, and you know, I was just sort of
Speaker 2: getting advice from everyone, thinking like, is this what I
Speaker 2: really want to do, because I've never been motivated really
Speaker 2: by just by like getting more famous or like getting
Speaker 2: more money or right.
Speaker 1: Well, I love that you say in the book, that
Speaker 1: sweet spot of fame where you get invited to really
Speaker 1: nice things, but you don't get annoyed at the supermarket.
Speaker 3: It's a sweet spot, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It is? But I don't know who has that sweet spot.
Speaker 3: I feel like we're probably in that sweet spot.
Speaker 1: Actually, I think I am.
Speaker 3: Do you get bothered at the supermarket?
Speaker 1: I get bothered by the supermarket? Actually, if I think it, maybe.
Speaker 3: You just want to be richer so then you don't
Speaker 3: have to go to the supermarket.
Speaker 2: Your sweet spot is just absolute to have domination people
Speaker 2: to work for you.
Speaker 1: But so you didn't end up in that sweet spot though,
Speaker 1: did you.
Speaker 3: I feel like I can still easily go to a
Speaker 3: supermarke like something. But I mean.
Speaker 1: Then when you were dressed into morning TV and it's attendant.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know Karl Stefanovic.
Speaker 2: Like Carl probably can go to the supermarket without getting harrassed.
Speaker 2: I don't think like, oh no, he'd just be getting
Speaker 2: annoyed everywhere. Yeah, And like I think, I don't know.
Speaker 2: You ask anyone who's famous, like even Taylor Swift. Have
Speaker 2: you seen those clips that pop up of her and
Speaker 2: she's like, don't feel sorry for me, but this is
Speaker 2: awful years And I think that that's true, Like you
Speaker 2: can't do anything normal like, you can't go to the
Speaker 2: shop and just be like, I'm just going to pick
Speaker 2: up some French linion dip and some jats on the
Speaker 2: way home exactly.
Speaker 1: And that's why it's a curse when extreme fame happens
Speaker 1: to people very young.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's unfair because there's no way on earth that
Speaker 2: they could be that they could have the mental capacity
Speaker 2: to deal with that sort of thing because you don't
Speaker 2: get any human experience, You don't get experiences in the
Speaker 2: way that anyone else does.
Speaker 3: No, it's isolating, it would be totally isolating.
Speaker 1: You know how they say the Queen, the Queen thinks
Speaker 1: the world smells of chicken and fresh paint.
Speaker 3: What do they say that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, it's very interesting. Well, because you know when
Speaker 1: people are the Queen doesn't just pop up anywhere unannounced.
Speaker 3: Of course, I've always got fresh paint feet, it's.
Speaker 1: Always freshly everything's freshly painted. And they are never serve
Speaker 1: chicken because it's the dish. Apparently the royals can eat.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, So that's what happens to people who are thrusted
Speaker 1: into intense fame at any stage really, but particularly young
Speaker 1: that there's it's got a real atrophye quality.
Speaker 2: I think that's why they always try to like sort
Speaker 2: of become a bit reclusive and try to keep their
Speaker 2: circle small and stuff like that. Right, like they try
Speaker 2: to sort of take it back, but you can't take
Speaker 2: it back.
Speaker 1: No, you can't take it back.
Speaker 3: But then you move to Oxford.
Speaker 1: Well, who would do that?
Speaker 3: Who would do that? That's been insane?
Speaker 1: Who who did you tell first? From the on air team?
Speaker 1: Was it were you on with Allie Langdon Stefanovic? Who
Speaker 1: was there in yours?
Speaker 2: I think oh, I'd already told Ali while I was
Speaker 2: applying she's one of my best friends, like I just
Speaker 2: I absolutely adore her and.
Speaker 1: Everyone loves her.
Speaker 3: Oh, she's just she's the best.
Speaker 2: And then I told Carl and Sarah h And obviously,
Speaker 2: like when you start telling people, we're like, oh no,
Speaker 2: this is going to get out because you feel sort
Speaker 2: of nervous about what if they someone whover hears them
Speaker 2: talking to someone you know, like they're not even gossiping,
Speaker 2: but maybe they're telling their partner. Like Brooke told me
Speaker 2: this today. You know what, you don't know. You just
Speaker 2: don't know who's gonna hear what. So as soon as
Speaker 2: you start telling people we get so nervous, so so nervous.
Speaker 3: So I told my agent and then I told my boss.
Speaker 2: You know, I think every time I went to tell someone,
Speaker 2: I feel like they would just assume, like in their
Speaker 2: mind they were like, she's pregnant.
Speaker 3: Because if a woman comes to you and they're like,
Speaker 3: can you just sit down, I've got some big news. Yeah,
Speaker 3: of course they're going to be like.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you know, it's either cancer or pregnant.
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, it's not anything else. It's never I'm going
Speaker 2: to Oxford.
Speaker 1: And also because people, like we said before, in this
Speaker 1: industry are not used to people leaving. Like it was
Speaker 1: like when I left to go live in Italy. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: people were like, what how could you leave that job?
Speaker 1: People only ever lose the job because they die or
Speaker 1: they get pushed down the stairs by someone who wants
Speaker 1: their job.
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like, people just don't walk away.
Speaker 3: And yet you.
Speaker 1: Made that decision. And I think, having read your book,
Speaker 1: that it's all tied up with who you are, who
Speaker 1: your people are, who your family are, what the expectations are,
Speaker 1: and the opportunity that you see that can be afforded
Speaker 1: to you that have been hard one. Am I overthinking it?
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I think you're right, and I think
Speaker 2: you're like, you can have all of the money in
Speaker 2: the world, Like you could stay in that job and
Speaker 2: you know, have a really amazing life and be so
Speaker 2: lucky because it's such an incredible job even though the
Speaker 2: hours are hard, but you only get one life, like you.
Speaker 1: I'm never going to keep saying I mean, we don't know,
Speaker 1: but we do have to work off it.
Speaker 3: We have to work off that assumption because we don't
Speaker 3: really know.
Speaker 2: Yes, like I'm only ever going to be thirty seven once,
Speaker 2: before I know it, I'm going to be forty, and
Speaker 2: then I'll be forty five.
Speaker 3: And time goes so quickly. And I just.
Speaker 2: Knew that if I didn't do something like this now,
Speaker 2: then I never ever would and I would have regretted it.
Speaker 2: I would have regretted it, not just because it's an
Speaker 2: amazing experience to go over there, but to prove to
Speaker 2: myself that I could do it and to stretch myself
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 3: It's such a gift to be able to indulge in
Speaker 3: thinking that it's amazing.
Speaker 2: And like to learn in the you know, the best
Speaker 2: university in the world and to think about things in
Speaker 2: a way that I've never thought about them before. It's
Speaker 2: to me, like the pain of not doing that is
Speaker 2: greater than the pain of leaving. And I think once
Speaker 2: the balance tips like that, and like there would be
Speaker 2: moments where I would be laying in bed at night
Speaker 2: thinking like I've got to do this. If I don't
Speaker 2: do this, I'm going to be filled with regret, like
Speaker 2: it's going to make me sad. If not now, then
Speaker 2: in ten years time or twenty years time.
Speaker 3: There's a but.
Speaker 1: You don't come to us just as yourself or do
Speaker 1: you have sixty five thousand years behind you? And you
Speaker 1: were the first I didn't realize this, the first Indigenous
Speaker 1: woman in commercial sull television in.
Speaker 2: That role, yeah, and that sort of substantial role, the
Speaker 2: first one on Breakfast TV. Man or woman, Yeah, like
Speaker 2: Stan had man or woman, Stan had Tony Armstrong. I
Speaker 2: love Tony, but like Stan Grant had been on Channel
Speaker 2: seven in the nineties and early noughties, but it hadn't
Speaker 2: really been anyone else, Like Norelda had done Perth and
Speaker 2: I think MALANDERI maybe had done some stuff in Darwin,
Speaker 2: but in terms of like one of.
Speaker 3: Those big TV gigs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it hadn't really been done before, and it
Speaker 2: feels weird to say now because then after that, you know,
Speaker 2: they all kind of did it, Like then Norella got
Speaker 2: her job and Tony got his job, and it sort
Speaker 2: of seemed like a really normal thing to do, as
Speaker 2: it should be.
Speaker 1: But when you started, was that so weird? A lot
Speaker 1: of the focus of attention on you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it was this weird moment where everyone was like, oh,
Speaker 2: what are they doing?
Speaker 1: Really?
Speaker 2: It was like, on one hand, people were like, oh,
Speaker 2: she's not really black, look at her.
Speaker 3: Look she's just a bit caramel.
Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, they were like, what
Speaker 2: are they doing putting a blackfither onto here? You know, like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a diversity high Like, I don't know, people
Speaker 2: had a very strange reaction to it.
Speaker 1: And what was your reaction to their reaction?
Speaker 3: I knew it would be.
Speaker 2: Like a big deal, but I just kind of didn't
Speaker 2: understand how big of a deal it was going to be.
Speaker 2: And you know, there's always so much of a fuss
Speaker 2: around like who's going to be on the Today Show and.
Speaker 3: Yees, what they're going to be doing, and yes, you.
Speaker 2: Know who's been sacked and who's been hired and you
Speaker 2: know who's feuding with her? Yeah, exactly, Like people are
Speaker 2: a bit obsessed with it and it's weird.
Speaker 3: I don't know why we are like that with Breakfast TV.
Speaker 3: What do you think it is? I don't know. I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 1: Television's got it. You know my backgrounds in breakfast radio.
Speaker 1: Predominantly there's something about, particularly the Today Show, even if
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily winning the ratings, it's always the subject
Speaker 1: of much discussion. I don't use I do not lie,
Speaker 1: but you're right, it really is.
Speaker 3: Like we always know what's going on with the hosts.
Speaker 2: Yes, always, like if someone's getting engaged or if someone's well.
Speaker 1: I remember you said even before you were a part
Speaker 1: of the show, and you knew when you know, Carl
Speaker 1: and Jazz got in games.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I remember yeah.
Speaker 2: And I remember when I was sitting in Parliament House
Speaker 2: in the afternoon and I saw a tweet from Lisa
Speaker 2: talking about.
Speaker 3: About leaving. So like all of these things, like you
Speaker 3: you sort of know about the show.
Speaker 2: You know so much about the show even before you're
Speaker 2: on it, and then when you're on it, you're like,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so weird, and people always
Speaker 2: want to note gossip about it, like they think that
Speaker 2: you're going to what's he like? And so I always
Speaker 2: used to joke to and I didn't actually say this
Speaker 2: to anyone, but I used to say to him, Oh,
Speaker 2: every time someone asks me what you're like, I tell
Speaker 2: them that.
Speaker 3: You've got bo And.
Speaker 1: Well they did wear the same suit for a year,
Speaker 1: so maybe I was sticking.
Speaker 3: Who knows.
Speaker 1: But then when you started the job and you said
Speaker 1: you told your family, they must have been extremely excited.
Speaker 3: Oh they were. They were just thrilled. I think.
Speaker 2: It's really hard to comprehend how big of a deal
Speaker 2: it is until it happens, and then they were like, wow.
Speaker 3: My god.
Speaker 1: Coming up after this break, Brook tells me about her family,
Speaker 1: how proud her parents are of her career and not
Speaker 1: just hers, all her siblings, and the hard life her
Speaker 1: mother has had. Don't go anywhere, because I think when
Speaker 1: you have a child, or the parents of children who
Speaker 1: end up going into show busy sun, I think they
Speaker 1: never really have any faith in us. If we haven't
Speaker 1: come with a pedigree, if we're not net bow babies
Speaker 1: or whatever. They always just struck by how precarious it
Speaker 1: is as a profession. So when you actually do something
Speaker 1: that they genuinely know and that means something to them,
Speaker 1: that is that's a mind meld for them.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: But I think my mum and my family felt proud
Speaker 2: every time I did something, Like I remember I worked
Speaker 2: on Corey Radio, the Aboriginal community radio station in Sydney,
Speaker 2: and they were super proud then, Like they used to
Speaker 2: come into the studio and like turn the radio on
Speaker 2: and like listen and stuff. And then when I got
Speaker 2: a cadet ship at the airBC, they was super proud
Speaker 2: of that. And then when I was on NATIV when
Speaker 2: it launched as a freeway channel in twenty twelve, they
Speaker 2: were super proud of that. Like every time, I think
Speaker 2: it's been one of those things that felt so unlikely
Speaker 2: and so huge that yeah, they've been super excited each time.
Speaker 2: I remember Mum said to me once because I was like, Mum,
Speaker 2: stops sharing stuff. It's so embarrassing. She's sharing all this
Speaker 2: stuff on Facebook all the time about like not just me,
Speaker 2: but my other brothers and sisters. And she's like, I
Speaker 2: just want everyone to know how good my kids are.
Speaker 2: Like she's so proud like embarrassingly proud. I love that,
Speaker 2: but like I don't know, I know, stop bragging, mom,
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: Know, Like you know, really that's parental currency they're allowed
Speaker 1: to out there, isn't it then social currency as well?
Speaker 3: And also I.
Speaker 1: Think particularly so there's five kids in your family, and
Speaker 1: I gather, and you don't go into it in sort
Speaker 1: of any graphic detail, but I gather that things were
Speaker 1: not always easy for your mother.
Speaker 3: No, yeah, she's she has had a roughtaurant.
Speaker 1: And how how is your familial structure like with the
Speaker 1: other kids.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good. We're into we're all really really close.
Speaker 2: So they've got their own kids now, right, and moms
Speaker 2: around them all the time, like all the time. She's
Speaker 2: always like picking them up from school or doing like
Speaker 2: little sort of craft activities with them, or like baking
Speaker 2: cookies or whatever. It's so sweet when you see your
Speaker 2: parents become grandparents because it's like they like finally figured
Speaker 2: out like exactly like the perfect way to be like
Speaker 2: a sweet like a TV show parent or a movie parent.
Speaker 1: And I love that you use the word sweet because
Speaker 1: there's a passage in your book where you talk about
Speaker 1: your mom and it's quite it's so eloquent and sort
Speaker 1: of heart rending, and you use the expression sweetness and
Speaker 1: I think, let me see if I can find it.
Speaker 1: At some point, my mum's sweetness and her ability to
Speaker 1: direct it towards her children faded. I remember her screaming
Speaker 1: down the phone one day when my stepdad was in jail,
Speaker 1: and when he asked her what happened to the lovely
Speaker 1: girl he'd met, she said that he'd killed her. I
Speaker 1: think that's true. He beat and berated the sweetness out
Speaker 1: of her and made her harder than she was ever
Speaker 1: supposed to be.
Speaker 2: Gosh, it's so hard hearing that back. It's so weird
Speaker 2: when you write things that are so deeply personal and
Speaker 2: you forget that everyone's going to read them. I think,
Speaker 2: like one thing that I feel so strongly about in
Speaker 2: terms of like sweetness and joy and levity and why
Speaker 2: never shy away from being like bubbly or silly or
Speaker 2: having fun, is that like us, there are so many
Speaker 2: awful and difficult things that happened in the world at
Speaker 2: any one time that you could just like jump into
Speaker 2: the void if you wanted to. And it's worse when
Speaker 2: you're a black woman because we're exposed to more of
Speaker 2: it more often.
Speaker 3: The statistics tell us that.
Speaker 2: And so I think, like joy and sweetness and not
Speaker 2: succumbing to that, you know, being harder. I guess you'd
Speaker 2: say the same about breakfast TV, Like it's hard. It's
Speaker 2: really hard work when you're you know, in the public
Speaker 2: eye all the time, and you know, sometimes the general
Speaker 2: public are saying mean things to you or about you,
Speaker 2: or like the tabloids are or whatever.
Speaker 1: I think, just process in the news, which is heavy.
Speaker 3: It's heavy. I think making a conscious decision to not
Speaker 3: succumb to that is It's hard.
Speaker 2: It's a choice, you know, like any one of us
Speaker 2: could just be like, oh well, woe is me?
Speaker 3: Like you know, I don't.
Speaker 2: Things are too hard, you know, like this is the
Speaker 2: world is terrible and filled with horror. But to be
Speaker 2: able to hang on to sweetness in spite of it is.
Speaker 3: I think I'll just always try to do that.
Speaker 1: You talk about and it's quite a bit in your book,
Speaker 1: and it's such it's it is of itself a very
Speaker 1: sweet way well to convey that element.
Speaker 3: Can I tell you something?
Speaker 1: Please tell me anything?
Speaker 2: Filter I I listened to a podcast that my friend
Speaker 2: asked me to go on maybe like four or five
Speaker 2: years ago during COVID, and we said something and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, that's a bit dicey, like I hope
Speaker 2: they cut that bit out. And so I went back
Speaker 2: and listened to it and like listening back to my
Speaker 2: own way of like speaking and talking. In my mind,
Speaker 2: I was like tough and brave and strong. And then
Speaker 2: when I listened back to it, I was like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I'm so like soft and sweet like the
Speaker 2: way that I speak. I didn't realize that. I didn't
Speaker 2: know because I don't watch my things back. I don't
Speaker 2: listen to myself like that. I couldn't imagine anything worse.
Speaker 2: But I had to this time, and I was like,
Speaker 2: is that what I sound like? Oh my gosh, I
Speaker 2: sound so like vulnerable or like soft. I didn't realize.
Speaker 1: That well, you know.
Speaker 3: So then once I had that moment, I was like, oh, no,
Speaker 3: I am very sweet.
Speaker 1: And it's like a touchstone, isn't it that that is
Speaker 1: what you always want to stay connected to in yourself.
Speaker 1: I think, particularly for women, not that men can also
Speaker 1: be sweet, but it's a it's a gentler attribute.
Speaker 2: I think it's a nicer way of being like because
Speaker 2: you're not doing it. I mean, I guess you are
Speaker 2: doing it in response to things, but it's I don't know,
Speaker 2: like I think hardness or like.
Speaker 3: You know, carrying something that's like heavy with you.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, you're sort of letting the world
Speaker 2: win a little bit, or like letting.
Speaker 3: The worst of things win.
Speaker 2: Yes, but if you like tried desperately to sort of
Speaker 2: cling to that, it's it's sort of like, well, you
Speaker 2: know you're not winning today.
Speaker 1: Do you think there was a period in your life
Speaker 1: in which you weren't as successful in Rye sing above that,
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: No, To be honest, I think like if it was
Speaker 2: like if I didn't have to have that experience personally,
Speaker 2: because I'd witnessed it so closely, you know, like I'd
Speaker 2: seen it firsthand, and so it wasn't like I had
Speaker 2: to go through it to learn the lesson. It was
Speaker 2: like I watched other people go through it and just
Speaker 2: sort of witnessed all of these women around me who
Speaker 2: have to be tougher to in order to be able
Speaker 2: to survive.
Speaker 1: So that you don't have to be yes, serially.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, it's almost like a favor to them isn't.
Speaker 1: It, Yes, to live the life. Yeah, that they didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily get to live.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: And like, when you think about it, I'm part of
Speaker 2: the generation, the first generation of women who's been able
Speaker 2: to do things like hold on to my sweetness, have
Speaker 2: my own credit card, which probably isn't a great decision sometimes,
Speaker 2: well it live by myself or travel overseas and let
Speaker 2: you know, choose to leave a career and go and
Speaker 2: study in Oxford. Like women have never been able to
Speaker 2: do this sort of thing before, to have that sort
Speaker 2: of autonomy and make decisions about exactly how they want
Speaker 2: to be in the world and who they want to be.
Speaker 1: Well, this takes me to another one of your Revelations meditations,
Speaker 1: which is fertility. That you talk about freezing your eggs
Speaker 1: and that whole the decisions leading up to it, the
Speaker 1: deciding to do it was what was your thought process
Speaker 1: about sharing that in the book and also what was
Speaker 1: your process in life that you just kind of are
Speaker 1: very prosaic about it.
Speaker 2: I think that I didn't realize that it was such
Speaker 2: a brief thing to talk about, to be honest, Like
Speaker 2: it just sort of felt like, oh no, like, if
Speaker 2: I have the resources and the wherewithal to do it,
Speaker 2: then I should because it just sort of makes sense
Speaker 2: for me right now. But then I didn't kind of realize,
Speaker 2: like sometimes I don't know, like I feel like in
Speaker 2: some ways I'm like very socially smart, but then in
Speaker 2: other ways, I'm like, oh, that's the inference from that,
Speaker 2: And so like after a while, I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: that means that like I'm failing in some other way,
Speaker 2: Like it's it makes it more obvious to others that
Speaker 2: are yearning for this thing.
Speaker 1: And that you don't have the relationship and that yes,
Speaker 1: maybe like a hunger for something.
Speaker 2: That's exactly like I didn't kind of put that together
Speaker 2: until afterwards, and then I was like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: people I think I'm some desperate loser who can't get
Speaker 2: a boyfriend.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize.
Speaker 2: That's that's why they were like, Oh my god, you're
Speaker 2: so brave to admit you're a desperate loser I can't
Speaker 2: get a boyfriend.
Speaker 3: It's like, no, I.
Speaker 2: Just wanted to be able to have more choice, you know,
Speaker 2: like I wanted to be able to make the decision
Speaker 2: for myself. And I really still like I don't want
Speaker 2: to miss out on motherhood. Like I know, one thing
Speaker 2: like for sure is that, like I just love being
Speaker 2: around babies and around children, And there is nothing that
Speaker 2: gives me more joy or makes me feel more like
Speaker 2: myself than when I'm around my nieces and nephews. It
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if I was like invited to the oscars
Speaker 2: or like even like mimulation ceremony in Oxford, which I was,
Speaker 2: like I'd thought about for years and years and years,
Speaker 2: none of that even it doesn't come close to being
Speaker 2: around them. And so like, I really hope that I
Speaker 2: get to do it, like I desperately hope that I do.
Speaker 1: But well, you've given yourself that option.
Speaker 3: I've given myself the option.
Speaker 1: But is there also a romance? You don't need to
Speaker 1: give me any details. Just tell me everything.
Speaker 3: Just tell me it's every single thing.
Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not romantically involved at the moment.
Speaker 1: But you've been in Oxford and all those highly attractive english.
Speaker 3: Men, so do you know.
Speaker 2: No, But this is the funny thing about Oxford because
Speaker 2: I think everyone thinks, oh, everyone's there's a bunch of nerds,
Speaker 2: like you know, everyone's got like glasses and they're like
Speaker 2: trying to figure out you know, some sort of mathematical problem.
Speaker 2: Be really posh. Some of them are really posh. It's
Speaker 2: very funny. Actually, some of them are like, oh you're
Speaker 2: from the colonies.
Speaker 3: There's that sort of English person there who was just
Speaker 3: so weird.
Speaker 2: Like I remember the first I went to this one
Speaker 2: of the old oldest scholargs is this one called Ballyol
Speaker 2: and they're having a party.
Speaker 3: My friend is at that college, so I.
Speaker 2: Went and this English guy comes over to me and
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, I hear from one of the colonies,
Speaker 2: like old.
Speaker 3: Timey voices, And I was like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Is he flirting or.
Speaker 2: Is In hindsight I think maybe he was flirting, because
Speaker 2: why would you say that?
Speaker 3: It's so weird.
Speaker 2: And then Kathy told me to say to them a.
Speaker 1: Pan It would have been a part.
Speaker 3: Yes loves a pun.
Speaker 2: She said, Oh, if someone comes to you and says
Speaker 2: like mean things about Australia or being from Australia, you
Speaker 2: should say to them, oh, well, you know, my my
Speaker 2: mom said to me that to be careful when I
Speaker 2: go to England, because isn't that where all the convicts
Speaker 2: came from?
Speaker 1: Ha. So have you applaied it?
Speaker 3: Of course I have and Atlanta. So well, yes, it's
Speaker 3: very good, very good. That is quite good. I'm like, okay, like,
Speaker 3: can you stop talking?
Speaker 1: Tell me much to my course so we can rubvish you.
Speaker 3: I'm want to read you some poetry.
Speaker 1: Yes, So you're in Oxford. How long have you been there?
Speaker 3: Now? So I've been there since September and you're studying
Speaker 3: a master's of public policy.
Speaker 1: Whatever the hell that is? So what is that?
Speaker 2: So it's basically it's like all about good governance and
Speaker 2: like good policy making, and it's like a factory for politicians.
Speaker 2: I think I don't want to be a politician. No,
Speaker 2: I'm one hundred. I swear, I swear to you.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 1: I know you don't don't. I'm like, you swear in
Speaker 1: nice listen to me.
Speaker 3: Are you sure? No?
Speaker 1: Sure? The persecute to us at some point in the future,
Speaker 1: like politicians like to do.
Speaker 3: No, I'm not. I don't have any intentions. I don't
Speaker 3: have any plans.
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows, Maybe in like twenty years I'll
Speaker 2: be like, Okay, yes I do want to do that,
Speaker 2: but right now I couldn't think of anything worse than
Speaker 2: doing that, because it's the same thing that the Today
Speaker 2: show is right where you like, you're really public facing
Speaker 2: and there's lots of.
Speaker 3: Scrutiny, and you know, I don't want to I don't
Speaker 3: want to do that.
Speaker 1: But what what what do you do? I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess it's you don't need to subscribe to the notion
Speaker 1: that education is for a purpose. But what do you
Speaker 1: do with that degree?
Speaker 3: I guess we'll find out. I mean, you don't have
Speaker 3: any idea, you don't have any plans. Did you choose it?
Speaker 2: A couple of my friends had done it, and I
Speaker 2: really liked the look of the course, So, you know,
Speaker 2: the things that I've been learning about like have been incredible.
Speaker 2: The first term was like political philosophy economics, and then
Speaker 2: this term is like political science and like law. So wow,
Speaker 2: it's pretty incredible. Like the things that I've been able
Speaker 2: to learn while I've been there, I mean, it's beyond
Speaker 2: my wildest imagination. Who knew that I would love economics?
Speaker 1: Not me?
Speaker 2: No, or like, you know, there's this one guy who
Speaker 2: I had a lecture from Professor Dita Helm and he
Speaker 2: talks about climate change or sustainability, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I should probably learn more about this because I don't
Speaker 2: really know much, but everyone talks about it all the
Speaker 2: yam and like I kind of know, I get the
Speaker 2: gist of it, and he starts talking about it in
Speaker 2: a way that I completely understand and ties it in
Speaker 2: with like economic sustainability, so like you know, paying down
Speaker 2: debt and tying it to all of these other ideas
Speaker 2: about you know, the way that we should tax carbon
Speaker 2: or shouldn't tax carbon, or whether or not it's effective.
Speaker 2: And I just feel so lucky or hearing like another
Speaker 2: professor talk about like the moral justifications for war and
Speaker 2: like what stands up in a criminal court and whether
Speaker 2: international criminal courts are even you know, useful or effective.
Speaker 2: And you know, in the current context, it feels like
Speaker 2: such a gift to be able to contextualize everything that's
Speaker 2: going on and say like, Okay, this is where this
Speaker 2: fits in. And you know, I feel comfortable about this
Speaker 2: kind of populism, but actually it's a reaction to these
Speaker 2: economic events and this kind of migration and these kind
Speaker 2: of conflicts and societal yeah, and so it's sort of
Speaker 2: like it's you know, if I went over there thinking like,
Speaker 2: oh no, the world's in such a difficult place at
Speaker 2: the moment. Nobody wants to understand each other. Like now
Speaker 2: I have so much more clarity around why people behave
Speaker 2: the way they do when it comes to voting, or
Speaker 2: like their economic behavior or you know, even I had
Speaker 2: to do a behavioral science subject.
Speaker 3: What's that?
Speaker 2: So like why people behave the way the way they do?
Speaker 2: And so like you know, the way that people will
Speaker 2: make trade offs for you know, getting something now as
Speaker 2: opposed to getting something in the future, So.
Speaker 1: Then gratification is that exactly?
Speaker 2: And like why it's so difficult for us to implement
Speaker 2: effective climate change policy or indigenous policy because people can't
Speaker 2: see the benefit of it for like twenty years, so
Speaker 2: they're like, well, I don't want to pay for that
Speaker 2: now to huge electricity bills. I'm not even going to
Speaker 2: see the benefit of this. Like when something's intangible, it's
Speaker 2: really hard to get people.
Speaker 3: To commit to it.
Speaker 2: It's being able to understand people in that way when
Speaker 2: it feels like, you know, so many people are making
Speaker 2: decisions that are really self interested.
Speaker 3: It's a gift, Yes.
Speaker 1: It's a gift. Hey, how much does it cost to
Speaker 1: study at Oxford?
Speaker 3: A lot?
Speaker 1: Like I knew it would be a lot.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of money. It's such a privilege.
Speaker 1: And did you had you always been like when you
Speaker 1: were doing the Today Show, once you had the realization
Speaker 1: where you always like, that's what you were saving up
Speaker 1: to be able to do, That's what I.
Speaker 3: Was working towards.
Speaker 2: And I got a scholarship from Aurora, so I got
Speaker 2: the Charlie Perkins che Evening Scholarship, and so that that's
Speaker 2: just so wonderful, like.
Speaker 1: And does that cover you for the three years at
Speaker 1: Hell year one year?
Speaker 2: And actually I will give a shout out to the
Speaker 2: other woman who's doing it with me. So there's another
Speaker 2: Aboriginal woman doing the same course. She's from Darwin. Her
Speaker 2: name's Marlin And honestly, like, I'm just endlessly just inspired
Speaker 2: by her. And she's incredible. So her background is in
Speaker 2: some sort of climate work.
Speaker 3: I don't know exactly what.
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry much, but she's she's incredible. Like to have
Speaker 2: two Aboriginal women in this extremely prestigious course and her
Speaker 2: like her background means that she brings like, you know,
Speaker 2: all of this knowledge to the course that we wouldn't
Speaker 2: have otherwise had.
Speaker 1: What do the poems make of that of two Aboriginal
Speaker 1: women at Oxford or did they not have a concept
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: I think like in our imagination, Australia is a lot
Speaker 2: bigger than what.
Speaker 3: It is in their imagination.
Speaker 2: So it's like one of like a lot of countries
Speaker 2: that they commonized and have that experience with. Right, So
Speaker 2: I think like they have a genuine affection for us,
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but it's it's.
Speaker 2: Not as like omnipresent as they are to us. Think
Speaker 2: about them more than they think about us.
Speaker 1: Do they understand aboriginality.
Speaker 2: They understand aboriginality, but only to the extent that, like
Speaker 2: popular culture in an international context would dictate, So like
Speaker 2: what they would see in movies or postcards or ads
Speaker 2: or whatever, you know, like it it's not nuanced and
Speaker 2: it's not it's not exactly right as being over there
Speaker 2: you feel like, I don't know, it's sort of like
Speaker 2: when you get really proud of your hometown when you
Speaker 2: leave it, but when you live there, you're like.
Speaker 3: Oh, I hate this place. Oh this place, like it's
Speaker 3: so limiting.
Speaker 2: Like I remember when I left a Muscle Brook and
Speaker 2: I was like, gosh, I feel so stifled here.
Speaker 3: And now I just have so much love for I
Speaker 3: love going back there. So much.
Speaker 2: It's like not that I ever had that really uncomfortable
Speaker 2: relationship with Australia, but when you leave, you feel like
Speaker 2: weirdly patriotic, like and I talk about Australian fruit and
Speaker 2: vegetables honestly, like I'm describing like a pre depression era
Speaker 2: like fruit tree in my grandmother's yard. Like because the country, well,
Speaker 2: England is so small, but the population is huge, so
Speaker 2: they don't have any of their own fruit and veggies
Speaker 2: grown locally. And obviously Australia is so big and we
Speaker 2: have those rules around not importing things.
Speaker 3: So our fruit and.
Speaker 2: Veggies are so beautiful, so so beautiful compared to other countries.
Speaker 1: Do you think the distance And like you said, when
Speaker 1: you come from somewhere, it's you know, familiarity breeds contempt
Speaker 1: that when you've come back into the Australian landscape after
Speaker 1: this period away, that's partly also why you love it.
Speaker 2: There's a couple of things, because I think the oppressive
Speaker 2: winter in the UK is something and I know, like
Speaker 2: everyone talks about the weather, but when you're there, it's
Speaker 2: like a character in your life, Like it is like
Speaker 2: a weird omnipresent Leeden's it's so heavy. Like I remember
Speaker 2: the first time that the sunset at like three point thirty.
Speaker 2: This is in November, so what's that four or five
Speaker 2: months ago? And I was sitting there in the kitchen
Speaker 2: at my friend's house, typing away doing some study and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's got to be like eight o'clock.
Speaker 3: And I looked at my phone.
Speaker 2: It was four point thirty in the afternoon, and I
Speaker 2: felt a wave of claustrophobia or like just darkness come
Speaker 2: over me. To think it was like that feeling where
Speaker 2: you can't see the horizon or you can't.
Speaker 3: See like the leak.
Speaker 1: It was so heavy, and I was like, this is
Speaker 1: what they're talking about seasonal adjustment disorders.
Speaker 3: Yes, SAD. Sad's real.
Speaker 2: And the cold, like I've never experienced anything like that
Speaker 2: for that extended period, and so like every time I
Speaker 2: left the house it felt like I was going on
Speaker 2: a mission to Mordoor because you have to like cover
Speaker 2: yourself up into every single place.
Speaker 3: It's the ease of getting around.
Speaker 2: Or living like that, I think is something that's lost
Speaker 2: on us as Australians, Like I think that's why we're
Speaker 2: so happy and so generally carefree.
Speaker 3: Andy and the.
Speaker 2: Vitamin D because life is just so easy here compared
Speaker 2: to over there, because if you have to be prepared
Speaker 2: or you will suffer.
Speaker 1: Now, you know, that's a very interesting thing to hear
Speaker 1: now in a climate in which Australians don't feel like
Speaker 1: life is easy here compared to how it was. But
Speaker 1: you are a messenger from a.
Speaker 3: Broad an angel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a prophet who's return from.
Speaker 3: Far away land.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, with messages of hope.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's really expensive over there too. It's so much more
Speaker 2: expensive than you like. It's you can't do anything. There's
Speaker 2: no you can't go to the movies or like go
Speaker 2: and have a sauna or whatever. It's so prohibitively expensive
Speaker 2: unless you find a deal or like you can get
Speaker 2: some sort of secret way. You have to work while
Speaker 2: you're there, No, you can't work.
Speaker 3: So I think you can if you get like special permission.
Speaker 2: But like, the sole focus while you're at Oxford has
Speaker 2: to be academia.
Speaker 1: Well you've certainly done that. You wowed me with your
Speaker 1: high for Luton academic talk. Did I really a little bit?
Speaker 1: I was like, I bet you didn't talk like that
Speaker 1: to Jason Momoa.
Speaker 3: We definitely talked about economics.
Speaker 1: That's not all of my conversation with Brooke Boney coming up,
Speaker 1: we talk about how animals make the world better and
Speaker 1: why she is so interested in sport. Hey, have you
Speaker 1: touched base with the Today Family?
Speaker 3: Yes, I've called them.
Speaker 2: I tried to get Carl, but he's on holidays because.
Speaker 3: They work so hard.
Speaker 1: It's true, but a lot of people work hard, and
Speaker 1: don't get that's true.
Speaker 2: That is true for a lot of people work hard.
Speaker 2: Then I spoke to Sarah yesterday, and you get so.
Speaker 3: Close when you're working. You would know from the breakfast.
Speaker 1: Radio intimacy because you're peaceable, you wake up with it's
Speaker 1: exactly right and then and that's why it's important that
Speaker 1: you like the people. You wake up with the chemistry song. Yes,
Speaker 1: and also if things start to go awry from early mornings,
Speaker 1: then they really go off the skids and it.
Speaker 2: Goes off quickly and you can't do anything about it.
Speaker 2: I think, well, I've never seen it happen, but I mean.
Speaker 1: But we do know, we know, we're historically it's happened,
Speaker 1: and I've seen it in a lot of breakfast radio shows.
Speaker 2: It's the relationships are so so important and you get
Speaker 2: so close because you go through everything together. So like
Speaker 2: if you're I don't know, like if your mum's sick
Speaker 2: or your sister's going through something, or you know you're
Speaker 2: going through a breakup or you know you're moving house
Speaker 2: or whatever, you all know about it.
Speaker 3: You're all sort of in it together.
Speaker 2: It's like it's the most intimate sort of professional relationship
Speaker 2: that you would ever have.
Speaker 3: I think that those breakfast hours.
Speaker 1: And do you miss the camaraderie of that, Yes.
Speaker 3: I do, because I know I'll never have a job
Speaker 3: like that again.
Speaker 1: What do you think your next rubblery?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like I promise I'm not
Speaker 2: keeping like a secret, and I'm going to, like, you know,
Speaker 2: in a few weeks be like surprise.
Speaker 3: This is my new gig. You assume me on a
Speaker 3: poster going like this, that's not going to happen. I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 1: Brook Bony's Prime Minister. Everybody, Oh my.
Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, no, no, no, no, I don't know what
Speaker 2: it's going to be. I think this is so uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: but I think I'm just going to see what happens.
Speaker 3: So I finish in September, and I can't I.
Speaker 2: Mean like, maybe someone will offer me a job and
Speaker 2: it'll be amazing and it'll be exactly what I want.
Speaker 2: Or maybe I'll stay over there and do more study,
Speaker 2: or maybe.
Speaker 1: Can I have a dog if you stay over there?
Speaker 3: A dog? Or both of my dogs died? I know,
Speaker 3: don't you feel? But that was do you know how
Speaker 3: to dream about the last night? I still dream about them,
Speaker 3: Jimmy and Ruben. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Pugs both pugs, which is the most impractical breed. But
Speaker 2: can I just say, in my defense, they can't breathe, they're.
Speaker 3: So they get so fat.
Speaker 1: That was my pug impersonation. Look you had to look
Speaker 1: away then, too.
Speaker 3: That's just too much. It was so accurate.
Speaker 2: I feel like, it's so weird that they never really
Speaker 2: leave you when you have a dog like that, like
Speaker 2: that sort.
Speaker 1: Of So I just got we just got a dog
Speaker 1: for the first time, my first dog ever.
Speaker 3: Do you love it so much?
Speaker 1: I love him more than I ever thought I would.
Speaker 3: It's weird, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It was like when I had children, Because I'd never
Speaker 1: been particularly maternal, I was always like, how will I be?
Speaker 1: And then from the moment I held my first child,
Speaker 1: I said to Peter, we were still in the hospital.
Speaker 1: I said, let's do it again, right, just new, just
Speaker 1: knew the dog is like that. But I think all
Speaker 1: the time, and so when I read your love letter
Speaker 1: to your boys, and then when you had to put
Speaker 1: him down, put Jimmy down after because Reuben had gone already,
Speaker 1: it was so soul rending because now even the Bearski
Speaker 1: our dog is only two or whatever, you project yourself
Speaker 1: forward every time you see a dog or you see
Speaker 1: a story about a dog, and I totally understand you
Speaker 1: when you talk about the grief of it, like proper grief.
Speaker 2: So I feel like every time I go back and
Speaker 2: read that one, that one affects me more than nearly
Speaker 2: any of the others. It makes me sob because I think,
Speaker 2: like if you've never had that sort of really secure,
Speaker 2: unconditional love and you get a dog and it's yours,
Speaker 2: when it's gone, it's it's heartbreaking, like there's nothing that
Speaker 2: can fill the void, and like beyond that, like death
Speaker 2: just doesn't make any sense to me at all, because
Speaker 2: I don't understand how something can exist one day and
Speaker 2: then not the next, Like it would be like if
Speaker 2: this table just vaporized, because that's essentially what happens, Like
Speaker 2: not that their physical bodies do that, but everything that.
Speaker 3: Makes them them them does that.
Speaker 1: And that because when when they or someone you love
Speaker 1: is alive, they're so alive, they're so alive, and then
Speaker 1: there's suddenly not then what.
Speaker 3: Like what happens?
Speaker 2: Like that doesn't make any sense, like in a scientific way,
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense to me, Like where does that go?
Speaker 3: What is that?
Speaker 1: You need to do a class on this at Oxford
Speaker 1: So they'd be running some sort of class.
Speaker 3: There would one hundred percent be some sort of thing
Speaker 3: about life, but it really is.
Speaker 1: You know, you were saying to be loved in that
Speaker 1: accepting sort of way. That is one half of it.
Speaker 1: But I also think that dogs activate in us our
Speaker 1: own goodness because of their extreme trust of us, Like
Speaker 1: when are you ever trusted like that?
Speaker 3: Life? I think.
Speaker 2: They like it's just such a safe way to pour
Speaker 2: your love out right, like every other experience that you
Speaker 2: have of love, whether it's like your parents or your
Speaker 2: partner or I think maybe your kids is different.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's like it's one of those things where you can
Speaker 2: pour so much of yourself into it because you know
Speaker 2: there is like no risk. You can be as vulnerable
Speaker 2: as you want, because there's no risk that they're going
Speaker 2: to do something with your love that's like a betrayal,
Speaker 2: or that they're unworthy of it, or like you'll discover
Speaker 2: that you know that they're undeserving.
Speaker 3: It's it's so pure, it's so so pure.
Speaker 1: I think before I had experienced it, I think I was.
Speaker 3: A bit I know. That's why I was embarrassed about it.
Speaker 2: Like I was so embarrassed about being so sad because
Speaker 2: I was like, people are going.
Speaker 3: To think I'm insane?
Speaker 2: Who when to We first started getting really old, like
Speaker 2: after Reuben had passed away, and Mum was like, why
Speaker 2: don't you get one of those brands right and you
Speaker 2: can push him around the park, like at least you
Speaker 2: can still go down, And.
Speaker 3: I'm like, Mum, people are going to think I'm insane.
Speaker 3: Imagine if you saw a woman pushing a freaking dog
Speaker 3: around in a pream.
Speaker 1: You see it now, it's more common now, But this
Speaker 1: was like we have all gone insane because.
Speaker 2: We have all lost the plot. There's nothing, there are
Speaker 2: no rules anymore. Basically, no, we're too close to the end,
Speaker 2: so everyone's just lea.
Speaker 1: I think that sounds so grim.
Speaker 2: That sounds so grim, But okay, I wrote a column
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago for Sunday Life, and I was
Speaker 2: talking about how it's really important not to engage in
Speaker 2: hyperbole when we talk about women's rights, because we do
Speaker 2: have far better than any of the other women who
Speaker 2: have gone for us.
Speaker 1: And that's a very point. It's also because people do
Speaker 1: like to they're like, oh, it's the worst we've never
Speaker 1: had anything.
Speaker 2: Yet we have and actually there are a lot of
Speaker 2: women who are still having a pretty bad experience right now,
Speaker 2: let's just be reasonable, like just everyone chill. But then,
Speaker 2: like in the last couple of weeks, you know, the
Speaker 2: way that things are playing out in like an international context,
Speaker 2: it's really hard to learn about the all of the
Speaker 2: norms that have been established over decades and decades and
Speaker 2: decades to prevent us from catastrophe being like violated or broken,
Speaker 2: like all of these agreements that we have between countries
Speaker 2: to make sure that you know that there's a balance
Speaker 2: of power between the US and Russia or the US
Speaker 2: and China.
Speaker 1: Alway, and our allies are and who are.
Speaker 2: Exactly yeah, and you know, like if Russia can do
Speaker 2: that to Ukraine and we let them, then what does
Speaker 2: that say for any other context? You know, we can't
Speaker 2: I can't underestimate or I can't understate just how scary
Speaker 2: it is for the people who I've been learning from
Speaker 2: to see all of these things that they're teaching us
Speaker 2: changed so quickly, all of these rules about how we
Speaker 2: engage you know, what happens with NATO, and you know,
Speaker 2: like the rules of war, and you know, do we
Speaker 2: give small parts of Ukraine to Russia just in order
Speaker 2: to appease them and stuff?
Speaker 3: But there are people who live there they don't want
Speaker 3: to be Russian. But also told us that.
Speaker 1: I think that this rapid movement of the world is
Speaker 1: also reflected by what's happening in our media and social media,
Speaker 1: Like things have never been so so quick to change
Speaker 1: and have it and so then it throws everything into overdrive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and even people look at the past through the prism
Speaker 1: of the present and it's like you're canceled, you're you know,
Speaker 1: it's all of it is a lot.
Speaker 2: I think I've watched a movie recently in London September five,
Speaker 2: and it's about all these people being taken hostage at
Speaker 2: the Olympics.
Speaker 3: I actually can have vine to the premiere. I was
Speaker 3: surprised that they invited me.
Speaker 2: Oh, but then I was like, I guess it's pretty niche,
Speaker 2: like journalists who have been to the Olympics, who are
Speaker 2: in lies.
Speaker 1: They're in English, Brooke Bony on the red carpet, waiting
Speaker 1: to interview you, Brooke Bony.
Speaker 3: No, they didn't care about me at all.
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you can just go over there and
Speaker 2: take some photos of yourself if you want. But what
Speaker 2: I was thinking about because it was sort of like
Speaker 2: right at the beginning of like twenty four hour News,
Speaker 2: and so they were broadcasting I don't want to give
Speaker 2: away the plot of the movie, but they were broadcasting
Speaker 2: parts of what was happening live this hostage situation and
Speaker 2: had never really been done before. And as it was happening,
Speaker 2: like as I was watching the movie, I was thinking,
Speaker 2: the proliferation of news is maybe not so helpful because
Speaker 2: you could make the argument that, you know, we don't
Speaker 2: need to know everything. You know, how is it helpful
Speaker 2: to us to know that this is going on at
Speaker 2: this particular moment in this hostage situation. Is that going
Speaker 2: to help the hostages in any way? Is it going
Speaker 2: to help with any sort of democratic process. Is it
Speaker 2: going to help with some sort of freedom of speech thing?
Speaker 3: Like what what does it actually do that is helpful?
Speaker 2: And so then if we don't, like we don't need
Speaker 2: to know everything, then why do we always like there's
Speaker 2: just so much of it. There's so much of it,
Speaker 2: and I don't know that all of it is particularly helpful.
Speaker 2: And then you get this situation a lot of it
Speaker 2: is not helpful.
Speaker 3: Then you get these.
Speaker 2: Situations where you have to feel time for things right,
Speaker 2: and so then people are getting like weird guests on
Speaker 2: all like I don't know, we've all seen those like
Speaker 2: weird news clips, and likewise it's like up late talking
Speaker 2: about this bizarre theory. But like I guess, the natural
Speaker 2: the natural progression of that is the splintering of it
Speaker 2: all and the undermining of what's true and the undermining
Speaker 2: of journalistic ethics and people not being able to doubt.
Speaker 1: I believe exactly what you ever be a showbiz reporter
Speaker 1: on today?
Speaker 2: To be fair, I am talking about a movie.
Speaker 3: Yes you are, all right?
Speaker 1: Let me just ask you quickly about a few things
Speaker 1: from your book. All right, The interest in sport.
Speaker 3: I love sport.
Speaker 1: You love sport.
Speaker 3: I love it so much.
Speaker 2: I think it's so funny that people are surprised by that.
Speaker 2: Now tell me maybe you're one of these people, Like
Speaker 2: do you think of sport and think, oh, meatheads, Oh
Speaker 2: that's such a bogain thing to love.
Speaker 3: Oh whykay?
Speaker 1: I have developed respect for sport through watching my children
Speaker 1: play sport. I never knew any sport, never played any sport.
Speaker 1: We were Jiva's witness, so where was door knocking on weekends?
Speaker 1: And I do not underestimate what it teaches what it brings.
Speaker 1: But I'm still astounded by how much you love sport
Speaker 1: and your interest in cranial injuries, because.
Speaker 2: I feel like it's just so interesting, right, Like I
Speaker 2: think sport is so wonderful because it's like theater, Like
Speaker 2: it lets you experience things really intense way in a
Speaker 2: really short period of time. Like you can go and
Speaker 2: see like like a play, and you're really laughing and
Speaker 2: crying and feeling all of these things really intensely, like
Speaker 2: in real life.
Speaker 3: They're real emotions. And sport does the same thing.
Speaker 2: Like if you go to the Swans, or actually if
Speaker 2: you go to like an English soccer game and you
Speaker 2: see them these Englishmen, and they're famous for being stoic,
Speaker 2: right and like quite unemotional and quite cold. Do you
Speaker 2: see them like singing in unison making up songs about
Speaker 2: these people who are their heroes, like the coaches and
Speaker 2: the players, And these are beautiful and funny and clever songs,
Speaker 2: and they're like openly weeping and like like jubilant if
Speaker 2: they you know, if they win. And I just think
Speaker 2: that that is a pretty special experience for any of us,
Speaker 2: but that sport can elicit that, and I don't like
Speaker 2: that there's this sort of like I don't know like
Speaker 2: that there's this like people think that it's it's not
Speaker 2: as clever or intense or or thoughtful as other kinds
Speaker 2: of expressions because it isn't like the same amount of
Speaker 2: work goes into it.
Speaker 1: Yes, a lot of work goes into it.
Speaker 2: And I think as well, like people, if it's not
Speaker 2: something that's like intellectual, then people just feel like they're
Speaker 2: superior to it, yes, and they like if something is
Speaker 2: like physical, or if it's if it's something that's like
Speaker 2: a different kind of challenging, then then they feel like
Speaker 2: some sort of sense of superior.
Speaker 1: Australia, I think it's a great equalizer.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is.
Speaker 1: I don't think people feel superior to it. In fact,
Speaker 1: the opposite way. You see politicians pretending that they go
Speaker 1: for a team because they think that that's going to
Speaker 1: ingratiate themselves with.
Speaker 3: The thing with people.
Speaker 2: What about there's that clip of Rishi Sooner during the
Speaker 2: election and he was trying to talk to some people
Speaker 2: because he's so right, it's like hundreds of millions of
Speaker 2: dollars pounds and he's trying to talk to like some
Speaker 2: commoners that he's like, oh, yes, what about the football
Speaker 2: or whatever?
Speaker 3: Like what like he just.
Speaker 1: Said like the completely wrong thing because he was just
Speaker 1: trying to grasp something that might make him popular for
Speaker 1: a moment.
Speaker 3: He didn't speak the language, like he didn't know.
Speaker 1: Hey, do you feel because you talk in the book
Speaker 1: about that your whole body, body image, or the way
Speaker 1: that you perceived or the pressures on a woman in
Speaker 1: the public eye, well even if a woman's not in
Speaker 1: the public eye, now that you don't have the cameras
Speaker 1: on you, do you feel do you have a different
Speaker 1: relationship with your body and your appearance?
Speaker 3: Yes? I think so.
Speaker 2: I think part of it will probably just stay with
Speaker 2: me forever, like that you like that you perceived all
Speaker 2: the time, you know that you're looked at, of it
Speaker 2: that you sort of look.
Speaker 3: A certain way.
Speaker 2: But I didn't kind of realize how much of an impact,
Speaker 2: not just physically, but like even like emotionally, or like
Speaker 2: the way that I expressed myself was like filtered through
Speaker 2: some sort of subconscious lens of always having to be
Speaker 2: perceived by others. Right, And so when you when I
Speaker 2: stopped having to like express myself all the time and
Speaker 2: like you know, tell people what I'm thinking or like
Speaker 2: you know, talk and like more sort of was going
Speaker 2: in than was going out, Like I'm learning more than
Speaker 2: I'm than I'm you know, talking. That was kind of
Speaker 2: like a weird dynamic shift because I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I've gone from like having millions of people listen to
Speaker 2: what I say every.
Speaker 3: Week to no one And.
Speaker 2: If it's it's pretty lovely, I could have say like there,
Speaker 2: it will never leave me, I don't think, But to
Speaker 2: have it dialed back and to not be super aware
Speaker 2: of like how I look all the time or whatever,
Speaker 2: it was pretty I think When I was on TV,
Speaker 2: like I think I would probably have like makeup on
Speaker 2: nearly every time I love the house, probably wouldn't leave
Speaker 2: the house in that makeup, and not because I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: I think I'm hideous and I need to cover it up.
Speaker 2: And you also had your makeup done, so my makeup done,
Speaker 2: so I'd always be walking around done up to the night.
Speaker 2: But also like without that sort of fear physical feeling
Speaker 2: of having like a face of makeup, I felt like
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable, almost like lashes and hair and exposed. Yes,
Speaker 2: but now most of the time to class, like I
Speaker 2: would just put on like a bit of like tinted
Speaker 2: moisturizer and and mascara, and I'm so comfortable.
Speaker 3: With how it looks. But it took me, I reckon,
Speaker 3: maybe two or three months.
Speaker 2: To get comfortable with looking normal. And also I really
Speaker 2: this said, this is such a position of privilege, and
Speaker 2: I realized this now. I didn't realize that people felt
Speaker 2: so at war with themselves, like in the body that
Speaker 2: they live in, Like that would be like living in
Speaker 2: a house that's on fire. Like I didn't realize that
Speaker 2: people had such an awful relationship with themselves. Obviously I
Speaker 2: know about like eating disorders and things like that, but
Speaker 2: in my imagination those things are like a form of
Speaker 2: like depression or punishment or some sort of weird dynamic
Speaker 2: psychologically that you can't sort of see yourself for who
Speaker 2: you are. And again like please don't don't come for me,
Speaker 2: because I don't know. You know, that was just sort
Speaker 2: of I'm just describing, you know, the way that we
Speaker 2: sort of thought about it when I was younger. It
Speaker 2: wasn't like it wasn't like you're living in something that
Speaker 2: doesn't belong to you, or that you don't like, or
Speaker 2: that you you know, you feel hostile towards I didn't
Speaker 2: get that, and that it was such a gift and
Speaker 2: a privilege to be pretty much okay with yourself.
Speaker 1: Brook Bony, I can't wait till you're Prime minister.
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't.
Speaker 2: Say that, don't I like that is such a huge job.
Speaker 2: I don't think I don't like that.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: I would never want to do a job that big.
Speaker 2: I shouldn't probably say that, because like what if one
Speaker 2: day I wanted to do and they'll reap, they'll play
Speaker 2: this in campaign as Yeah, they will.
Speaker 3: I never want to do a job that's that big.
Speaker 1: Big. I can't do a big job. I mean, it
Speaker 1: will destroy my sweetness, I'm too sweet, all that sweet
Speaker 1: with my tinted moisturizer.
Speaker 3: I don't want to do a big job.
Speaker 1: Well, so at this back to the start of the book,
Speaker 1: one of the things that you're positing yourself with yourself
Speaker 1: is or to yourself, is the possibility that you won't
Speaker 1: be fulfilling that part of yourself that's been rewarded by
Speaker 1: being famous once you lead the Today Show, what do
Speaker 1: you mean? Well, so there's a part of you that,
Speaker 1: even though you long to see what you're like without
Speaker 1: the trappings of, you know, being well known, there's also
Speaker 1: the fear of how you will navigate the world in
Speaker 1: which you're not well known. How are you going at that?
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm going all right.
Speaker 1: I think you are too.
Speaker 3: I feel good.
Speaker 2: Like the first kind of couple of weeks is hard
Speaker 2: because everything felt like so new and so weird and
Speaker 2: like so foreign, like every part of it. I didn't
Speaker 2: know how to study, I didn't know how to do
Speaker 2: any of that stuff, like even I don't know just
Speaker 2: like sort of basic admin stuff felt like really tough
Speaker 2: because it's like figuring out your school email and stalling
Speaker 2: it into your outlook, like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no one to ask, no one to help. No,
Speaker 1: there's no assistant producer or whatever.
Speaker 3: It's like, if you need.
Speaker 2: Tech help or help with your admin stuff, there's people
Speaker 2: around that always help with us kind of thing, because
Speaker 2: you know, your job is to be on TV to
Speaker 2: present things like you've got to focus on that, and
Speaker 2: so I just sort of step.
Speaker 3: Away from that. It's like, oh my god, what have
Speaker 3: I done? What have I done? But no, I feel
Speaker 3: good like it. I don't regret it.
Speaker 1: No good. It's a good place to be, very good
Speaker 1: place to be. And when you regret it, you can
Speaker 1: come back and tell us.
Speaker 3: Come back with my head in my hand, please.
Speaker 1: Boney a very I'm not the first to say it,
Speaker 1: but it's a really beautiful book.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: And you're a very lovely writer. Thank you, And you
Speaker 1: know what, you're very sweet. Whatever Brooks is actually thinks
Speaker 1: she would make a great politician. This conversation only scratched
Speaker 1: the surface of brooks life. And that's why she has
Speaker 1: written a book. It's called All of It. I loved it.
Speaker 1: I read it twice. I hope she believes me now.
Speaker 1: In fact, I could pass a quiz on her. We
Speaker 1: put all the details in the show notes. The executive
Speaker 1: producer of No Filter is Nama Brown, Senior producer is
Speaker 1: Grace Rufrey. Sound design is by Jacob Brown. And I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Kate Laine Brook. I'll be back with you
Speaker 1: next week.