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Speaker 1: You're listening to a mother and me a podcast. Mama

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Speaker 1: mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: You know that you're looked at, or that you sort

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Speaker 2: of look a certain way. But I didn't kind of

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Speaker 2: realize how much of an impact, not just physically, but

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Speaker 2: like even like emotionally or like the way that I

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Speaker 2: expressed myself was like filtered through some sort of subconscious

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Speaker 2: lens of always having to be perceived by others. Right,

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Speaker 2: And so when I stopped having to like express myself

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Speaker 2: all the time and like, you know, tell people what

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking or like you know, talk and like more

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Speaker 2: sort of was going in than was going out, Like

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Speaker 2: I'm learning more that I'm than I'm you know talking.

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Speaker 2: That was kind of like a weird dynamic shift because

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I've gone from like having millions

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Speaker 2: of people listen to what I say every week to

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Speaker 2: no one, and it's it's pretty lovely.

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Speaker 1: I got to say, Hi, I'm Kate Langbrook. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: No Filter. Brooke Boney had one of the best gigs

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Speaker 1: in the world for years. We woke up with her

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Speaker 1: on morning TV. It was a job that changed her

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Speaker 1: life until one morning she made a decision that would

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Speaker 1: change her life again. She announced live on air on

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Speaker 1: the Today Show that she was done not just with

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Speaker 1: breakfast television, but with Australia. She was heading overseas to

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Speaker 1: study at Oxford, Oxford University. Now Brook has written a book,

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Speaker 1: and it covers so much that we had so much

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Speaker 1: to cover. Fame, the stalkers, yes, plural sport and associated

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Speaker 1: head injuries. I mean that'll make sense soon, her family

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Speaker 1: and her dogs. She opens up about fertility and the

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Speaker 1: reactions to being the first Indigenous woman on commercial TV

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Speaker 1: to diverse for some not diverse enough fathers. We also

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Speaker 1: had some fun in this chat. Brooke and I discuss

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Speaker 1: whether we're famous enough to get stopped in the supermarket,

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Speaker 1: the verdict being that we are not the perceived brave.

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Speaker 1: Conversations what it means to be called brave, and how

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Speaker 1: life at Oxford has given her ooh a new fancy vocabulary,

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Speaker 1: and we talk a lot about sweetness, the sweetness of

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Speaker 1: her family, in particular her mother, the sweetness we wish

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Speaker 1: the world had more of, and honestly, the refreshing sweetness

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Speaker 1: that I feel about Brooke herself. I hope you enjoy

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Speaker 1: this conversation as much as I did. Here is Brooke Bony.

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Speaker 1: Brooke Bony, Hello, welcome to No Filter.

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Speaker 3: Oh thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Now I have your book, which I have read twice.

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Speaker 1: You don't buy I don't believe you, because that's so kind.

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Speaker 1: That means I probably read it more than you have.

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Speaker 3: You definitely have read it more than I have.

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Speaker 2: But I do feel like I've read your book a

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Speaker 2: couple of times as well, because remember I did the

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Speaker 2: interview with you after you did it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Now, this is just kind of strange happening that

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Speaker 1: a few years ago at the Sydney Writers' Festival, I

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Speaker 1: was my book chow Bella had just come out, and

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Speaker 1: I did a session and you were my interviewer.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And it's a weird experience when you read someone's

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Speaker 2: book that you sort of know publicly, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we kind of know each other anyway, yeah, probably, But

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Speaker 2: then you get to read what their thoughts are and

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Speaker 2: you feel like, oh, I really know this person.

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Speaker 1: Now. Yes, it's true.

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Speaker 3: It's lovely, isn't it. But it's a bit weird.

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Speaker 1: Well, so your book, which is called All of It,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think there's ever been a more accurate

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Speaker 1: title for a book.

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Speaker 3: Like this book.

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Speaker 1: There's animals, dogs, beautiful dog, Oh, I love them so much, fertility, ah,

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Speaker 1: sport and heat injuries. It's just everything in igeneity.

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Speaker 2: Because I think everyone thinks it's just like a straight

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Speaker 2: up memoir. And when I try to explain to someone

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Speaker 2: like no, no, no, it's just a bunch of essays that

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Speaker 2: I've written, the things that I think about all the time,

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Speaker 2: care about, and they're like, oh, like what, And I'm like, well, there's.

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Speaker 3: One on dogs. There's one on egg freezing. Yes, there's

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Speaker 3: one on sports. I love cricket. Yes. But I think

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Speaker 3: we are all of.

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Speaker 2: Those things, right, Like you know, if I was just

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Speaker 2: to focus on like one part of it, then that

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be all of it. It'd be some of it.

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Speaker 1: No, And then you couldn't call it all of them.

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Speaker 3: I'd have to change the title.

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Speaker 1: However, you have come to the knowledge of most people

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Speaker 1: through breakfast Television, through your stint on Today as a

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Speaker 1: showbiz reporter, and in fact, the start of your book

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Speaker 1: is you contemplating quitting the show?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 1: Did you write that in real time or did you

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Speaker 1: write that in retrospect and when was that?

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Speaker 3: No, I wrote it in real time, so it was

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Speaker 3: this time last year, right, And it's so.

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Speaker 2: It's so weird to think about now, because you know

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Speaker 2: when you make a big decision like that, and you

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Speaker 2: know that once once you make it, or once you

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Speaker 2: start telling people you can't go.

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Speaker 1: Back, no, once it's once it's.

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Speaker 2: Done, Yes, it's done. And so I remember thinking like,

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Speaker 2: is this really what I'm going to do? Am I

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Speaker 2: really going to do this?

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Speaker 1: And who had you discussed it with? Because people probably

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Speaker 1: know this, but that is primo job that for many people,

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Speaker 1: Richard Wilkins, it's the pinnacle, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: So many people people would kill for that job.

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Speaker 2: You probably have killed for that job at the cerferent

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Speaker 2: stages of the I think when you know that you've

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Speaker 2: done as much as what you can possibly do in

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Speaker 2: a job, and that you know you can sort of

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Speaker 2: see exactly what your life looks like for the next five, ten,

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Speaker 2: fifteen years, I think for me, I was like, there's

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Speaker 2: so many other things that I want to do.

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Speaker 1: Well, because I think you always had this. Maybe I

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Speaker 1: think this more from having read your book. I don't

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Speaker 1: think this was probably apparent to viewers, but there was

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Speaker 1: always like a slight tension within you because being a

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Speaker 1: showbiz reporter is this and requires a certain sort of skills,

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Speaker 1: which you had in spades, but it also requires a

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Speaker 1: limitation of your interest.

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Speaker 2: I think like before I was on Triple J, on

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Speaker 2: their breakfast show, I was in Parliament House as a

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Speaker 2: political reporter for SBS and ITV, and so then to

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Speaker 2: go I think, from that really serious news and then

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Speaker 2: go and work at ABC and be reporting on Indigenous affairs,

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Speaker 2: which is also just so serious and so heavy.

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Speaker 3: Then to go and do entertainment.

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Speaker 2: It was it felt like such a weird shift for me,

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Speaker 2: even though for other people it was like, oh, this

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Speaker 2: is a natural fit because she's just come from Triple J.

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Speaker 3: Which is you know, the youth popular.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a popular show and you know it's all

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Speaker 2: about music and you know, there's a big focus on

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Speaker 2: entertainment as well. So it felt like for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people it was natural, but for me it felt

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Speaker 2: like deeply unnatural in some ways, like there was I

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Speaker 2: felt quite limited by doing that, and.

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Speaker 1: I think and also intensely commercial, and none of your

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Speaker 1: indev prior to that point had been particularly commercial.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 2: For me that would have always had like an expiry

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Speaker 2: date because I felt like even though towards the end,

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 3: Doing news as well, which I absolutely loved, and.

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Speaker 2: It's such a great show, and it does stretch you

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Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, your technical abilities, you know

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Speaker 2: what it's like when you do live TV, and we

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Speaker 2: had to do it every day for like three and

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Speaker 2: a half hours, and it doesn't matter if there's something

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Speaker 2: really big happening, then you stay on air and you're

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Speaker 2: sort of you know, flying by the seat of your

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Speaker 2: pants or you know, like when we went to the Olympics.

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Speaker 3: That's sort of broadcasting.

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Speaker 2: People make it look easy, but technically it's so challenging

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Speaker 2: because there's so many different environmental factors. You're dealing with

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Speaker 2: the elements and with the people around you not knowing

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Speaker 2: what they're going to do. But also you have to

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Speaker 2: know everything.

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Speaker 1: And you have to be able to repeat it without

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Speaker 1: repeating it exactly. You have to maintain the relay ships,

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Speaker 1: which for people who were getting up at four o'clock

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Speaker 1: in the morning, quarter past three, quarter past three.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard.

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Speaker 2: And so it's not that it wasn't technically challenging or

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Speaker 2: professionally challenging, because it was in lots of ways. But

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Speaker 2: I think my idea of myself was really quite different

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Speaker 2: from doing entertainment only.

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Speaker 1: And what do you think drew their eye to you

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Speaker 1: in the first place? How did you get offered that job?

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Speaker 3: I remember exactly what it was.

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Speaker 2: So when I was on Triple J I did an

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Speaker 2: episode of back Roads and I went up to the

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Speaker 2: Tiwei Islands, and you know, it's that lovely show where

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Speaker 2: they go to the country.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful, it's so good. I thought you might have gone

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Speaker 1: to Muscle Brook.

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Speaker 3: No, I think we were.

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Speaker 2: I think we were nearly going to go to somewhere

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Speaker 2: like Tamworth or somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Around, which is where you're from.

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Speaker 3: Up around that area, like in the Upper Hunter Valley.

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Speaker 2: We went up to the Tewe's and they have like

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Speaker 2: this big pretty carnival and arts festival, and it's so beautiful,

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Speaker 2: it's heaven. And they have these these these trans women

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Speaker 2: and they're called Sister Girls, and they were they took

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Speaker 2: me out bush and we were eating these like gigantic slugs.

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Speaker 3: Oh, they're supposed to be like.

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Speaker 2: Medicinal and they just sort of like crack open and

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Speaker 2: these big pillars of wood and then pulled them out

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Speaker 2: and there you go, eat one of these and I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, of course, is it like a witchity

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Speaker 2: grub but bigger and softer and squishier and without the ridges.

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Speaker 2: Without the ridges, it's almost like, yeah, like translucent and

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Speaker 2: it's like eats the wood. And so they pull it

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Speaker 2: out and then they just like got down the gullet

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Speaker 2: and I remember doing it and then just being like yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then being like, oh, that's so lovely, thank you,

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Speaker 2: because you do want to be disrespectful of people's And

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Speaker 2: my boss on today, Burlow, his parents were watching and

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Speaker 2: they were like, Oh, you've got to get this girl.

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Speaker 3: To come across the Channel nine.

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Speaker 2: We just absolutely love her, Like she was so funny

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Speaker 2: and you know she was doing all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And if she grabs and so you got the phone call, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And where were you at that point in your life?

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Speaker 3: So like just personally, emotionally, spiritually.

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Speaker 1: Anywhere, physically, all of it, all of it, all of them.

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Speaker 3: I think I was ready to move on from Triple J.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, I was kind of hoping to get a reprieve

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Speaker 2: from the early mornings and then like, so when I

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Speaker 2: got the call and I was like, oh, this means

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Speaker 2: my life is going to change, because it's one thing

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Speaker 2: to be famous, you know, on the Triple J audience

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Speaker 2: with the Triple Jen, it's still a huge amount of people.

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Speaker 2: It's probably about the same as the Tenay Show audience,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't have all of the tabloid interests, Like

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Speaker 2: people don't really care about the lives of the hosts

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Speaker 2: in the same way that they do on the Today Show.

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Speaker 1: No, that's true.

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Speaker 2: You know, like you were you're a celebrity when you're

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Speaker 2: on that sho show. Yeah, like the Daily Mail will

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Speaker 2: write stories about you, and you know, it's a completely

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Speaker 2: different beast. And so I knew my life was going

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Speaker 2: to change. I didn't know exactly how. And so I

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Speaker 2: kind of spoke to my family and I spoke to

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Speaker 2: some friends, and you know, I was just sort of

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Speaker 2: getting advice from everyone, thinking like, is this what I

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Speaker 2: really want to do, because I've never been motivated really

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Speaker 2: by just by like getting more famous or like getting

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Speaker 2: more money or right.

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Speaker 1: Well, I love that you say in the book, that

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Speaker 1: sweet spot of fame where you get invited to really

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Speaker 1: nice things, but you don't get annoyed at the supermarket.

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Speaker 3: It's a sweet spot, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: It is? But I don't know who has that sweet spot.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we're probably in that sweet spot.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I think I am.

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Speaker 3: Do you get bothered at the supermarket?

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Speaker 1: I get bothered by the supermarket? Actually, if I think it, maybe.

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Speaker 3: You just want to be richer so then you don't

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Speaker 3: have to go to the supermarket.

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Speaker 2: Your sweet spot is just absolute to have domination people

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Speaker 2: to work for you.

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Speaker 1: But so you didn't end up in that sweet spot though,

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Speaker 1: did you.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I can still easily go to a

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Speaker 3: supermarke like something. But I mean.

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Speaker 1: Then when you were dressed into morning TV and it's attendant.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know Karl Stefanovic.

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Speaker 2: Like Carl probably can go to the supermarket without getting harrassed.

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Speaker 2: I don't think like, oh no, he'd just be getting

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Speaker 2: annoyed everywhere. Yeah, And like I think, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: You ask anyone who's famous, like even Taylor Swift. Have

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Speaker 2: you seen those clips that pop up of her and

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Speaker 2: she's like, don't feel sorry for me, but this is

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Speaker 2: awful years And I think that that's true, Like you

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Speaker 2: can't do anything normal like, you can't go to the

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Speaker 2: shop and just be like, I'm just going to pick

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Speaker 2: up some French linion dip and some jats on the

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Speaker 2: way home exactly.

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Speaker 1: And that's why it's a curse when extreme fame happens

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Speaker 1: to people very young.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's unfair because there's no way on earth that

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Speaker 2: they could be that they could have the mental capacity

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Speaker 2: to deal with that sort of thing because you don't

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Speaker 2: get any human experience, You don't get experiences in the

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Speaker 2: way that anyone else does.

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Speaker 3: No, it's isolating, it would be totally isolating.

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Speaker 1: You know how they say the Queen, the Queen thinks

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Speaker 1: the world smells of chicken and fresh paint.

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Speaker 3: What do they say that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, it's very interesting. Well, because you know when

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Speaker 1: people are the Queen doesn't just pop up anywhere unannounced.

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Speaker 3: Of course, I've always got fresh paint feet, it's.

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Speaker 1: Always freshly everything's freshly painted. And they are never serve

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Speaker 1: chicken because it's the dish. Apparently the royals can eat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Right, So that's what happens to people who are thrusted

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Speaker 1: into intense fame at any stage really, but particularly young

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Speaker 1: that there's it's got a real atrophye quality.

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Speaker 2: I think that's why they always try to like sort

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Speaker 2: of become a bit reclusive and try to keep their

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Speaker 2: circle small and stuff like that. Right, like they try

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Speaker 2: to sort of take it back, but you can't take

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Speaker 2: it back.

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Speaker 1: No, you can't take it back.

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Speaker 3: But then you move to Oxford.

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Speaker 1: Well, who would do that?

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Speaker 3: Who would do that? That's been insane?

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Speaker 1: Who who did you tell first? From the on air team?

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Speaker 1: Was it were you on with Allie Langdon Stefanovic? Who

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Speaker 1: was there in yours?

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Speaker 2: I think oh, I'd already told Ali while I was

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Speaker 2: applying she's one of my best friends, like I just

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Speaker 2: I absolutely adore her and.

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Speaker 1: Everyone loves her.

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Speaker 3: Oh, she's just she's the best.

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Speaker 2: And then I told Carl and Sarah h And obviously,

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Speaker 2: like when you start telling people, we're like, oh no,

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Speaker 2: this is going to get out because you feel sort

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Speaker 2: of nervous about what if they someone whover hears them

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Speaker 2: talking to someone you know, like they're not even gossiping,

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Speaker 2: but maybe they're telling their partner. Like Brooke told me

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Speaker 2: this today. You know what, you don't know. You just

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Speaker 2: don't know who's gonna hear what. So as soon as

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Speaker 2: you start telling people we get so nervous, so so nervous.

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Speaker 3: So I told my agent and then I told my boss.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think every time I went to tell someone,

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Speaker 2: I feel like they would just assume, like in their

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Speaker 2: mind they were like, she's pregnant.

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Speaker 3: Because if a woman comes to you and they're like,

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Speaker 3: can you just sit down, I've got some big news. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: of course they're going to be like.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you know, it's either cancer or pregnant.

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Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, it's not anything else. It's never I'm going

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Speaker 2: to Oxford.

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Speaker 1: And also because people, like we said before, in this

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Speaker 1: industry are not used to people leaving. Like it was

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Speaker 1: like when I left to go live in Italy. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: people were like, what how could you leave that job?

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Speaker 1: People only ever lose the job because they die or

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Speaker 1: they get pushed down the stairs by someone who wants

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Speaker 1: their job.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like, people just don't walk away.

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Speaker 3: And yet you.

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Speaker 1: Made that decision. And I think, having read your book,

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Speaker 1: that it's all tied up with who you are, who

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Speaker 1: your people are, who your family are, what the expectations are,

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Speaker 1: and the opportunity that you see that can be afforded

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Speaker 1: to you that have been hard one. Am I overthinking it?

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, I think you're right, and I think

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Speaker 2: you're like, you can have all of the money in

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Speaker 2: the world, Like you could stay in that job and

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Speaker 2: you know, have a really amazing life and be so

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Speaker 2: lucky because it's such an incredible job even though the

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Speaker 2: hours are hard, but you only get one life, like you.

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to keep saying I mean, we don't know,

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Speaker 1: but we do have to work off it.

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Speaker 3: We have to work off that assumption because we don't

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Speaker 3: really know.

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Speaker 2: Yes, like I'm only ever going to be thirty seven once,

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Speaker 2: before I know it, I'm going to be forty, and

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Speaker 2: then I'll be forty five.

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Speaker 3: And time goes so quickly. And I just.

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Speaker 2: Knew that if I didn't do something like this now,

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Speaker 2: then I never ever would and I would have regretted it.

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Speaker 2: I would have regretted it, not just because it's an

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00:18:06,045 --> 00:18:08,725
Speaker 2: amazing experience to go over there, but to prove to

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Speaker 2: myself that I could do it and to stretch myself

348
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Speaker 2: like that.

349
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Speaker 3: It's such a gift to be able to indulge in

350
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Speaker 3: thinking that it's amazing.

351
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Speaker 2: And like to learn in the you know, the best

352
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Speaker 2: university in the world and to think about things in

353
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Speaker 2: a way that I've never thought about them before. It's

354
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Speaker 2: to me, like the pain of not doing that is

355
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Speaker 2: greater than the pain of leaving. And I think once

356
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Speaker 2: the balance tips like that, and like there would be

357
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Speaker 2: moments where I would be laying in bed at night

358
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Speaker 2: thinking like I've got to do this. If I don't

359
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Speaker 2: do this, I'm going to be filled with regret, like

360
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Speaker 2: it's going to make me sad. If not now, then

361
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Speaker 2: in ten years time or twenty years time.

362
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Speaker 3: There's a but.

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Speaker 1: You don't come to us just as yourself or do

364
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Speaker 1: you have sixty five thousand years behind you? And you

365
00:19:02,685 --> 00:19:07,285
Speaker 1: were the first I didn't realize this, the first Indigenous

366
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Speaker 1: woman in commercial sull television in.

367
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Speaker 2: That role, yeah, and that sort of substantial role, the

368
00:19:14,565 --> 00:19:17,285
Speaker 2: first one on Breakfast TV. Man or woman, Yeah, like

369
00:19:17,365 --> 00:19:22,245
Speaker 2: Stan had man or woman, Stan had Tony Armstrong. I

370
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Speaker 2: love Tony, but like Stan Grant had been on Channel

371
00:19:27,045 --> 00:19:33,405
Speaker 2: seven in the nineties and early noughties, but it hadn't

372
00:19:33,565 --> 00:19:37,325
Speaker 2: really been anyone else, Like Norelda had done Perth and

373
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Speaker 2: I think MALANDERI maybe had done some stuff in Darwin,

374
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Speaker 2: but in terms of like one of.

375
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Speaker 3: Those big TV gigs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like it hadn't really been done before, and it

377
00:19:48,965 --> 00:19:51,445
Speaker 2: feels weird to say now because then after that, you know,

378
00:19:51,485 --> 00:19:54,045
Speaker 2: they all kind of did it, Like then Norella got

379
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Speaker 2: her job and Tony got his job, and it sort

380
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Speaker 2: of seemed like a really normal thing to do, as

381
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Speaker 2: it should be.

382
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Speaker 1: But when you started, was that so weird? A lot

383
00:20:01,365 --> 00:20:02,965
Speaker 1: of the focus of attention on you.

384
00:20:03,405 --> 00:20:07,205
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it was this weird moment where everyone was like, oh,

385
00:20:07,245 --> 00:20:07,885
Speaker 2: what are they doing?

386
00:20:08,685 --> 00:20:09,085
Speaker 1: Really?

387
00:20:10,445 --> 00:20:12,765
Speaker 2: It was like, on one hand, people were like, oh,

388
00:20:12,765 --> 00:20:14,045
Speaker 2: she's not really black, look at her.

389
00:20:14,125 --> 00:20:15,445
Speaker 3: Look she's just a bit caramel.

390
00:20:15,485 --> 00:20:17,085
Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, they were like, what

391
00:20:17,085 --> 00:20:20,005
Speaker 2: are they doing putting a blackfither onto here? You know, like, oh,

392
00:20:20,045 --> 00:20:23,285
Speaker 2: this is a diversity high Like, I don't know, people

393
00:20:23,325 --> 00:20:25,445
Speaker 2: had a very strange reaction to it.

394
00:20:26,045 --> 00:20:28,605
Speaker 1: And what was your reaction to their reaction?

395
00:20:31,845 --> 00:20:32,885
Speaker 3: I knew it would be.

396
00:20:32,805 --> 00:20:35,725
Speaker 2: Like a big deal, but I just kind of didn't

397
00:20:35,965 --> 00:20:38,245
Speaker 2: understand how big of a deal it was going to be.

398
00:20:39,205 --> 00:20:41,445
Speaker 2: And you know, there's always so much of a fuss

399
00:20:41,445 --> 00:20:44,045
Speaker 2: around like who's going to be on the Today Show and.

400
00:20:44,045 --> 00:20:46,165
Speaker 3: Yees, what they're going to be doing, and yes, you.

401
00:20:46,125 --> 00:20:49,445
Speaker 2: Know who's been sacked and who's been hired and you

402
00:20:49,445 --> 00:20:52,685
Speaker 2: know who's feuding with her? Yeah, exactly, Like people are

403
00:20:52,725 --> 00:20:55,605
Speaker 2: a bit obsessed with it and it's weird.

404
00:20:55,645 --> 00:20:57,645
Speaker 3: I don't know why we are like that with Breakfast TV.

405
00:20:57,805 --> 00:21:00,165
Speaker 3: What do you think it is? I don't know. I

406
00:21:00,525 --> 00:21:00,925
Speaker 3: don't know.

407
00:21:01,005 --> 00:21:05,525
Speaker 1: Television's got it. You know my backgrounds in breakfast radio.

408
00:21:05,645 --> 00:21:12,405
Speaker 1: Predominantly there's something about, particularly the Today Show, even if

409
00:21:12,405 --> 00:21:18,605
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily winning the ratings, it's always the subject

410
00:21:18,645 --> 00:21:24,045
Speaker 1: of much discussion. I don't use I do not lie,

411
00:21:24,125 --> 00:21:25,765
Speaker 1: but you're right, it really is.

412
00:21:26,205 --> 00:21:28,125
Speaker 3: Like we always know what's going on with the hosts.

413
00:21:28,485 --> 00:21:31,885
Speaker 2: Yes, always, like if someone's getting engaged or if someone's well.

414
00:21:31,925 --> 00:21:34,165
Speaker 1: I remember you said even before you were a part

415
00:21:34,205 --> 00:21:37,445
Speaker 1: of the show, and you knew when you know, Carl

416
00:21:37,525 --> 00:21:38,605
Speaker 1: and Jazz got in games.

417
00:21:38,685 --> 00:21:40,925
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I remember yeah.

418
00:21:41,005 --> 00:21:43,405
Speaker 2: And I remember when I was sitting in Parliament House

419
00:21:43,925 --> 00:21:47,085
Speaker 2: in the afternoon and I saw a tweet from Lisa

420
00:21:47,565 --> 00:21:48,525
Speaker 2: talking about.

421
00:21:49,765 --> 00:21:52,685
Speaker 3: About leaving. So like all of these things, like you

422
00:21:52,845 --> 00:21:55,245
Speaker 3: you sort of know about the show.

423
00:21:55,725 --> 00:21:58,405
Speaker 2: You know so much about the show even before you're

424
00:21:58,445 --> 00:22:00,005
Speaker 2: on it, and then when you're on it, you're like,

425
00:22:00,085 --> 00:22:02,965
Speaker 2: oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so weird, and people always

426
00:22:03,005 --> 00:22:04,645
Speaker 2: want to note gossip about it, like they think that

427
00:22:04,685 --> 00:22:08,245
Speaker 2: you're going to what's he like? And so I always

428
00:22:08,285 --> 00:22:10,445
Speaker 2: used to joke to and I didn't actually say this

429
00:22:10,485 --> 00:22:11,925
Speaker 2: to anyone, but I used to say to him, Oh,

430
00:22:11,965 --> 00:22:13,925
Speaker 2: every time someone asks me what you're like, I tell

431
00:22:13,925 --> 00:22:14,245
Speaker 2: them that.

432
00:22:14,245 --> 00:22:15,685
Speaker 3: You've got bo And.

433
00:22:17,365 --> 00:22:19,245
Speaker 1: Well they did wear the same suit for a year,

434
00:22:19,565 --> 00:22:20,605
Speaker 1: so maybe I was sticking.

435
00:22:20,725 --> 00:22:21,365
Speaker 3: Who knows.

436
00:22:21,805 --> 00:22:25,165
Speaker 1: But then when you started the job and you said

437
00:22:25,205 --> 00:22:29,045
Speaker 1: you told your family, they must have been extremely excited.

438
00:22:29,965 --> 00:22:33,685
Speaker 3: Oh they were. They were just thrilled. I think.

439
00:22:35,125 --> 00:22:37,605
Speaker 2: It's really hard to comprehend how big of a deal

440
00:22:37,885 --> 00:22:41,205
Speaker 2: it is until it happens, and then they were like, wow.

441
00:22:41,365 --> 00:22:41,885
Speaker 3: My god.

442
00:22:45,725 --> 00:22:49,805
Speaker 1: Coming up after this break, Brook tells me about her family,

443
00:22:50,125 --> 00:22:53,205
Speaker 1: how proud her parents are of her career and not

444
00:22:53,405 --> 00:22:57,405
Speaker 1: just hers, all her siblings, and the hard life her

445
00:22:57,405 --> 00:23:03,365
Speaker 1: mother has had. Don't go anywhere, because I think when

446
00:23:03,405 --> 00:23:07,365
Speaker 1: you have a child, or the parents of children who

447
00:23:07,445 --> 00:23:11,125
Speaker 1: end up going into show busy sun, I think they

448
00:23:11,205 --> 00:23:14,485
Speaker 1: never really have any faith in us. If we haven't

449
00:23:14,485 --> 00:23:16,565
Speaker 1: come with a pedigree, if we're not net bow babies

450
00:23:16,645 --> 00:23:20,325
Speaker 1: or whatever. They always just struck by how precarious it

451
00:23:20,445 --> 00:23:23,725
Speaker 1: is as a profession. So when you actually do something

452
00:23:23,725 --> 00:23:28,485
Speaker 1: that they genuinely know and that means something to them,

453
00:23:29,045 --> 00:23:32,805
Speaker 1: that is that's a mind meld for them.

454
00:23:33,285 --> 00:23:33,525
Speaker 3: I know.

455
00:23:33,645 --> 00:23:36,645
Speaker 2: But I think my mum and my family felt proud

456
00:23:36,725 --> 00:23:39,085
Speaker 2: every time I did something, Like I remember I worked

457
00:23:39,125 --> 00:23:44,485
Speaker 2: on Corey Radio, the Aboriginal community radio station in Sydney,

458
00:23:45,245 --> 00:23:48,405
Speaker 2: and they were super proud then, Like they used to

459
00:23:48,405 --> 00:23:50,205
Speaker 2: come into the studio and like turn the radio on

460
00:23:50,285 --> 00:23:53,125
Speaker 2: and like listen and stuff. And then when I got

461
00:23:53,165 --> 00:23:55,485
Speaker 2: a cadet ship at the airBC, they was super proud

462
00:23:55,525 --> 00:23:58,085
Speaker 2: of that. And then when I was on NATIV when

463
00:23:58,085 --> 00:24:01,125
Speaker 2: it launched as a freeway channel in twenty twelve, they

464
00:24:01,165 --> 00:24:03,365
Speaker 2: were super proud of that. Like every time, I think

465
00:24:03,405 --> 00:24:05,645
Speaker 2: it's been one of those things that felt so unlikely

466
00:24:06,245 --> 00:24:13,205
Speaker 2: and so huge that yeah, they've been super excited each time.

467
00:24:13,285 --> 00:24:15,285
Speaker 2: I remember Mum said to me once because I was like, Mum,

468
00:24:15,325 --> 00:24:19,525
Speaker 2: stops sharing stuff. It's so embarrassing. She's sharing all this

469
00:24:19,525 --> 00:24:22,325
Speaker 2: stuff on Facebook all the time about like not just me,

470
00:24:22,365 --> 00:24:24,965
Speaker 2: but my other brothers and sisters. And she's like, I

471
00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:26,645
Speaker 2: just want everyone to know how good my kids are.

472
00:24:27,565 --> 00:24:32,285
Speaker 2: Like she's so proud like embarrassingly proud. I love that,

473
00:24:33,005 --> 00:24:35,445
Speaker 2: but like I don't know, I know, stop bragging, mom,

474
00:24:35,965 --> 00:24:36,445
Speaker 2: I don't.

475
00:24:36,245 --> 00:24:40,645
Speaker 1: Know, Like you know, really that's parental currency they're allowed

476
00:24:40,645 --> 00:24:43,645
Speaker 1: to out there, isn't it then social currency as well?

477
00:24:44,045 --> 00:24:44,805
Speaker 3: And also I.

478
00:24:44,765 --> 00:24:49,645
Speaker 1: Think particularly so there's five kids in your family, and

479
00:24:49,685 --> 00:24:51,965
Speaker 1: I gather, and you don't go into it in sort

480
00:24:52,005 --> 00:24:55,245
Speaker 1: of any graphic detail, but I gather that things were

481
00:24:55,525 --> 00:24:57,525
Speaker 1: not always easy for your mother.

482
00:24:57,845 --> 00:25:01,045
Speaker 3: No, yeah, she's she has had a roughtaurant.

483
00:25:01,405 --> 00:25:05,965
Speaker 1: And how how is your familial structure like with the

484
00:25:06,005 --> 00:25:06,925
Speaker 1: other kids.

485
00:25:06,805 --> 00:25:10,445
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good. We're into we're all really really close.

486
00:25:10,765 --> 00:25:14,285
Speaker 2: So they've got their own kids now, right, and moms

487
00:25:14,325 --> 00:25:17,965
Speaker 2: around them all the time, like all the time. She's

488
00:25:17,965 --> 00:25:21,045
Speaker 2: always like picking them up from school or doing like

489
00:25:21,085 --> 00:25:23,885
Speaker 2: little sort of craft activities with them, or like baking

490
00:25:23,925 --> 00:25:29,325
Speaker 2: cookies or whatever. It's so sweet when you see your

491
00:25:29,365 --> 00:25:33,605
Speaker 2: parents become grandparents because it's like they like finally figured

492
00:25:33,645 --> 00:25:36,805
Speaker 2: out like exactly like the perfect way to be like

493
00:25:36,885 --> 00:25:39,965
Speaker 2: a sweet like a TV show parent or a movie parent.

494
00:25:40,245 --> 00:25:42,685
Speaker 1: And I love that you use the word sweet because

495
00:25:42,685 --> 00:25:47,245
Speaker 1: there's a passage in your book where you talk about

496
00:25:47,245 --> 00:25:55,005
Speaker 1: your mom and it's quite it's so eloquent and sort

497
00:25:55,045 --> 00:25:59,205
Speaker 1: of heart rending, and you use the expression sweetness and

498
00:25:59,245 --> 00:26:01,285
Speaker 1: I think, let me see if I can find it.

499
00:26:02,325 --> 00:26:06,445
Speaker 1: At some point, my mum's sweetness and her ability to

500
00:26:06,485 --> 00:26:11,165
Speaker 1: direct it towards her children faded. I remember her screaming

501
00:26:11,205 --> 00:26:13,605
Speaker 1: down the phone one day when my stepdad was in jail,

502
00:26:14,205 --> 00:26:16,285
Speaker 1: and when he asked her what happened to the lovely

503
00:26:16,325 --> 00:26:21,125
Speaker 1: girl he'd met, she said that he'd killed her. I

504
00:26:21,165 --> 00:26:24,965
Speaker 1: think that's true. He beat and berated the sweetness out

505
00:26:25,005 --> 00:26:28,205
Speaker 1: of her and made her harder than she was ever

506
00:26:28,245 --> 00:26:29,005
Speaker 1: supposed to be.

507
00:26:31,205 --> 00:26:34,125
Speaker 2: Gosh, it's so hard hearing that back. It's so weird

508
00:26:34,165 --> 00:26:36,605
Speaker 2: when you write things that are so deeply personal and

509
00:26:36,645 --> 00:26:43,365
Speaker 2: you forget that everyone's going to read them. I think,

510
00:26:44,885 --> 00:26:48,325
Speaker 2: like one thing that I feel so strongly about in

511
00:26:48,445 --> 00:26:51,565
Speaker 2: terms of like sweetness and joy and levity and why

512
00:26:51,685 --> 00:26:54,685
Speaker 2: never shy away from being like bubbly or silly or

513
00:26:54,685 --> 00:26:58,525
Speaker 2: having fun, is that like us, there are so many

514
00:26:58,605 --> 00:27:00,805
Speaker 2: awful and difficult things that happened in the world at

515
00:27:00,845 --> 00:27:04,405
Speaker 2: any one time that you could just like jump into

516
00:27:04,445 --> 00:27:06,605
Speaker 2: the void if you wanted to. And it's worse when

517
00:27:06,645 --> 00:27:08,685
Speaker 2: you're a black woman because we're exposed to more of

518
00:27:08,685 --> 00:27:09,245
Speaker 2: it more often.

519
00:27:09,445 --> 00:27:10,525
Speaker 3: The statistics tell us that.

520
00:27:11,405 --> 00:27:17,165
Speaker 2: And so I think, like joy and sweetness and not

521
00:27:17,205 --> 00:27:21,725
Speaker 2: succumbing to that, you know, being harder. I guess you'd

522
00:27:21,765 --> 00:27:24,005
Speaker 2: say the same about breakfast TV, Like it's hard. It's

523
00:27:24,085 --> 00:27:26,525
Speaker 2: really hard work when you're you know, in the public

524
00:27:26,525 --> 00:27:29,405
Speaker 2: eye all the time, and you know, sometimes the general

525
00:27:29,445 --> 00:27:32,125
Speaker 2: public are saying mean things to you or about you,

526
00:27:32,405 --> 00:27:33,885
Speaker 2: or like the tabloids are or whatever.

527
00:27:33,925 --> 00:27:36,605
Speaker 1: I think, just process in the news, which is heavy.

528
00:27:36,765 --> 00:27:41,805
Speaker 3: It's heavy. I think making a conscious decision to not

529
00:27:41,925 --> 00:27:47,325
Speaker 3: succumb to that is It's hard.

530
00:27:47,405 --> 00:27:50,765
Speaker 2: It's a choice, you know, like any one of us

531
00:27:50,805 --> 00:27:52,885
Speaker 2: could just be like, oh well, woe is me?

532
00:27:53,045 --> 00:27:53,965
Speaker 3: Like you know, I don't.

533
00:27:55,325 --> 00:27:58,205
Speaker 2: Things are too hard, you know, like this is the

534
00:27:58,245 --> 00:28:01,245
Speaker 2: world is terrible and filled with horror. But to be

535
00:28:01,285 --> 00:28:05,405
Speaker 2: able to hang on to sweetness in spite of it is.

536
00:28:06,925 --> 00:28:08,605
Speaker 3: I think I'll just always try to do that.

537
00:28:08,605 --> 00:28:11,165
Speaker 1: You talk about and it's quite a bit in your book,

538
00:28:11,445 --> 00:28:14,765
Speaker 1: and it's such it's it is of itself a very

539
00:28:14,805 --> 00:28:18,125
Speaker 1: sweet way well to convey that element.

540
00:28:18,365 --> 00:28:19,325
Speaker 3: Can I tell you something?

541
00:28:19,405 --> 00:28:20,685
Speaker 1: Please tell me anything?

542
00:28:21,125 --> 00:28:26,845
Speaker 2: Filter I I listened to a podcast that my friend

543
00:28:26,885 --> 00:28:29,045
Speaker 2: asked me to go on maybe like four or five

544
00:28:29,125 --> 00:28:33,005
Speaker 2: years ago during COVID, and we said something and I

545
00:28:33,005 --> 00:28:34,525
Speaker 2: was like, oh, that's a bit dicey, like I hope

546
00:28:34,565 --> 00:28:36,645
Speaker 2: they cut that bit out. And so I went back

547
00:28:36,685 --> 00:28:38,925
Speaker 2: and listened to it and like listening back to my

548
00:28:39,005 --> 00:28:43,205
Speaker 2: own way of like speaking and talking. In my mind,

549
00:28:43,805 --> 00:28:47,525
Speaker 2: I was like tough and brave and strong. And then

550
00:28:47,525 --> 00:28:49,645
Speaker 2: when I listened back to it, I was like, oh

551
00:28:49,685 --> 00:28:52,885
Speaker 2: my god, I'm so like soft and sweet like the

552
00:28:52,885 --> 00:28:55,085
Speaker 2: way that I speak. I didn't realize that. I didn't

553
00:28:55,085 --> 00:28:58,085
Speaker 2: know because I don't watch my things back. I don't

554
00:28:58,205 --> 00:29:00,645
Speaker 2: listen to myself like that. I couldn't imagine anything worse.

555
00:29:01,205 --> 00:29:02,605
Speaker 2: But I had to this time, and I was like,

556
00:29:03,205 --> 00:29:06,765
Speaker 2: is that what I sound like? Oh my gosh, I

557
00:29:06,765 --> 00:29:11,685
Speaker 2: sound so like vulnerable or like soft. I didn't realize.

558
00:29:11,285 --> 00:29:12,645
Speaker 1: That well, you know.

559
00:29:12,845 --> 00:29:14,725
Speaker 3: So then once I had that moment, I was like, oh, no,

560
00:29:14,805 --> 00:29:15,805
Speaker 3: I am very sweet.

561
00:29:15,845 --> 00:29:20,285
Speaker 1: And it's like a touchstone, isn't it that that is

562
00:29:20,325 --> 00:29:23,445
Speaker 1: what you always want to stay connected to in yourself.

563
00:29:23,485 --> 00:29:26,165
Speaker 1: I think, particularly for women, not that men can also

564
00:29:26,205 --> 00:29:29,805
Speaker 1: be sweet, but it's a it's a gentler attribute.

565
00:29:30,045 --> 00:29:33,245
Speaker 2: I think it's a nicer way of being like because

566
00:29:33,245 --> 00:29:35,205
Speaker 2: you're not doing it. I mean, I guess you are

567
00:29:35,245 --> 00:29:40,205
Speaker 2: doing it in response to things, but it's I don't know,

568
00:29:40,325 --> 00:29:42,445
Speaker 2: like I think hardness or like.

569
00:29:44,205 --> 00:29:47,205
Speaker 3: You know, carrying something that's like heavy with you.

570
00:29:47,725 --> 00:29:50,045
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, you're sort of letting the world

571
00:29:50,125 --> 00:29:51,645
Speaker 2: win a little bit, or like letting.

572
00:29:51,405 --> 00:29:52,405
Speaker 3: The worst of things win.

573
00:29:52,885 --> 00:29:55,325
Speaker 2: Yes, but if you like tried desperately to sort of

574
00:29:55,325 --> 00:30:00,005
Speaker 2: cling to that, it's it's sort of like, well, you

575
00:30:00,005 --> 00:30:01,005
Speaker 2: know you're not winning today.

576
00:30:01,285 --> 00:30:03,325
Speaker 1: Do you think there was a period in your life

577
00:30:04,085 --> 00:30:10,085
Speaker 1: in which you weren't as successful in Rye sing above that,

578
00:30:11,125 --> 00:30:11,645
Speaker 1: I think.

579
00:30:11,565 --> 00:30:14,045
Speaker 2: No, To be honest, I think like if it was

580
00:30:14,725 --> 00:30:16,885
Speaker 2: like if I didn't have to have that experience personally,

581
00:30:16,925 --> 00:30:19,565
Speaker 2: because I'd witnessed it so closely, you know, like I'd

582
00:30:19,565 --> 00:30:21,645
Speaker 2: seen it firsthand, and so it wasn't like I had

583
00:30:21,645 --> 00:30:23,485
Speaker 2: to go through it to learn the lesson. It was

584
00:30:23,525 --> 00:30:25,805
Speaker 2: like I watched other people go through it and just

585
00:30:25,805 --> 00:30:27,805
Speaker 2: sort of witnessed all of these women around me who

586
00:30:27,845 --> 00:30:31,165
Speaker 2: have to be tougher to in order to be able

587
00:30:31,165 --> 00:30:31,965
Speaker 2: to survive.

588
00:30:31,805 --> 00:30:34,285
Speaker 1: So that you don't have to be yes, serially.

589
00:30:34,085 --> 00:30:36,525
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, it's almost like a favor to them isn't.

590
00:30:36,285 --> 00:30:40,325
Speaker 1: It, Yes, to live the life. Yeah, that they didn't

591
00:30:40,365 --> 00:30:41,765
Speaker 1: necessarily get to live.

592
00:30:41,685 --> 00:30:42,405
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

593
00:30:42,765 --> 00:30:45,925
Speaker 2: And like, when you think about it, I'm part of

594
00:30:45,965 --> 00:30:49,285
Speaker 2: the generation, the first generation of women who's been able

595
00:30:49,285 --> 00:30:52,165
Speaker 2: to do things like hold on to my sweetness, have

596
00:30:52,245 --> 00:30:56,365
Speaker 2: my own credit card, which probably isn't a great decision sometimes,

597
00:30:56,645 --> 00:30:59,245
Speaker 2: well it live by myself or travel overseas and let

598
00:30:59,485 --> 00:31:01,245
Speaker 2: you know, choose to leave a career and go and

599
00:31:01,245 --> 00:31:03,605
Speaker 2: study in Oxford. Like women have never been able to

600
00:31:03,605 --> 00:31:06,005
Speaker 2: do this sort of thing before, to have that sort

601
00:31:06,005 --> 00:31:09,205
Speaker 2: of autonomy and make decisions about exactly how they want

602
00:31:09,245 --> 00:31:10,725
Speaker 2: to be in the world and who they want to be.

603
00:31:10,965 --> 00:31:17,405
Speaker 1: Well, this takes me to another one of your Revelations meditations,

604
00:31:17,965 --> 00:31:23,565
Speaker 1: which is fertility. That you talk about freezing your eggs

605
00:31:24,685 --> 00:31:30,085
Speaker 1: and that whole the decisions leading up to it, the

606
00:31:30,205 --> 00:31:36,085
Speaker 1: deciding to do it was what was your thought process

607
00:31:36,125 --> 00:31:39,405
Speaker 1: about sharing that in the book and also what was

608
00:31:39,445 --> 00:31:43,165
Speaker 1: your process in life that you just kind of are

609
00:31:43,285 --> 00:31:45,045
Speaker 1: very prosaic about it.

610
00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:50,325
Speaker 2: I think that I didn't realize that it was such

611
00:31:50,325 --> 00:31:53,045
Speaker 2: a brief thing to talk about, to be honest, Like

612
00:31:53,085 --> 00:31:55,005
Speaker 2: it just sort of felt like, oh no, like, if

613
00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:57,205
Speaker 2: I have the resources and the wherewithal to do it,

614
00:31:57,245 --> 00:31:59,165
Speaker 2: then I should because it just sort of makes sense

615
00:31:59,205 --> 00:32:01,805
Speaker 2: for me right now. But then I didn't kind of realize,

616
00:32:01,925 --> 00:32:03,965
Speaker 2: like sometimes I don't know, like I feel like in

617
00:32:03,965 --> 00:32:06,725
Speaker 2: some ways I'm like very socially smart, but then in

618
00:32:06,765 --> 00:32:08,805
Speaker 2: other ways, I'm like, oh, that's the inference from that,

619
00:32:09,445 --> 00:32:11,285
Speaker 2: And so like after a while, I was like, oh,

620
00:32:11,325 --> 00:32:14,445
Speaker 2: that means that like I'm failing in some other way,

621
00:32:14,685 --> 00:32:17,085
Speaker 2: Like it's it makes it more obvious to others that

622
00:32:17,245 --> 00:32:18,605
Speaker 2: are yearning for this thing.

623
00:32:18,565 --> 00:32:20,485
Speaker 1: And that you don't have the relationship and that yes,

624
00:32:20,845 --> 00:32:22,965
Speaker 1: maybe like a hunger for something.

625
00:32:22,765 --> 00:32:26,005
Speaker 2: That's exactly like I didn't kind of put that together

626
00:32:26,085 --> 00:32:27,525
Speaker 2: until afterwards, and then I was like, oh my gosh,

627
00:32:27,565 --> 00:32:30,085
Speaker 2: people I think I'm some desperate loser who can't get

628
00:32:30,085 --> 00:32:31,205
Speaker 2: a boyfriend.

629
00:32:32,445 --> 00:32:33,765
Speaker 3: I didn't realize.

630
00:32:34,685 --> 00:32:36,605
Speaker 2: That's that's why they were like, Oh my god, you're

631
00:32:36,645 --> 00:32:38,725
Speaker 2: so brave to admit you're a desperate loser I can't

632
00:32:38,765 --> 00:32:39,365
Speaker 2: get a boyfriend.

633
00:32:40,045 --> 00:32:41,685
Speaker 3: It's like, no, I.

634
00:32:41,605 --> 00:32:44,645
Speaker 2: Just wanted to be able to have more choice, you know,

635
00:32:44,725 --> 00:32:47,005
Speaker 2: like I wanted to be able to make the decision

636
00:32:47,045 --> 00:32:49,285
Speaker 2: for myself. And I really still like I don't want

637
00:32:49,285 --> 00:32:52,725
Speaker 2: to miss out on motherhood. Like I know, one thing

638
00:32:53,125 --> 00:32:56,005
Speaker 2: like for sure is that, like I just love being

639
00:32:56,045 --> 00:32:59,765
Speaker 2: around babies and around children, And there is nothing that

640
00:32:59,845 --> 00:33:02,325
Speaker 2: gives me more joy or makes me feel more like

641
00:33:02,365 --> 00:33:05,485
Speaker 2: myself than when I'm around my nieces and nephews. It

642
00:33:05,485 --> 00:33:07,765
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if I was like invited to the oscars

643
00:33:07,845 --> 00:33:11,605
Speaker 2: or like even like mimulation ceremony in Oxford, which I was,

644
00:33:11,965 --> 00:33:14,365
Speaker 2: like I'd thought about for years and years and years,

645
00:33:14,885 --> 00:33:18,045
Speaker 2: none of that even it doesn't come close to being

646
00:33:18,085 --> 00:33:21,685
Speaker 2: around them. And so like, I really hope that I

647
00:33:21,725 --> 00:33:23,845
Speaker 2: get to do it, like I desperately hope that I do.

648
00:33:24,005 --> 00:33:25,605
Speaker 1: But well, you've given yourself that option.

649
00:33:25,645 --> 00:33:26,725
Speaker 3: I've given myself the option.

650
00:33:27,165 --> 00:33:29,925
Speaker 1: But is there also a romance? You don't need to

651
00:33:29,925 --> 00:33:32,565
Speaker 1: give me any details. Just tell me everything.

652
00:33:32,765 --> 00:33:34,605
Speaker 3: Just tell me it's every single thing.

653
00:33:34,845 --> 00:33:38,645
Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not romantically involved at the moment.

654
00:33:39,005 --> 00:33:44,885
Speaker 1: But you've been in Oxford and all those highly attractive english.

655
00:33:44,605 --> 00:33:45,245
Speaker 3: Men, so do you know.

656
00:33:45,445 --> 00:33:47,925
Speaker 2: No, But this is the funny thing about Oxford because

657
00:33:47,925 --> 00:33:50,885
Speaker 2: I think everyone thinks, oh, everyone's there's a bunch of nerds,

658
00:33:50,885 --> 00:33:53,765
Speaker 2: like you know, everyone's got like glasses and they're like

659
00:33:53,845 --> 00:33:56,405
Speaker 2: trying to figure out you know, some sort of mathematical problem.

660
00:33:57,125 --> 00:34:00,605
Speaker 2: Be really posh. Some of them are really posh. It's

661
00:34:00,725 --> 00:34:03,325
Speaker 2: very funny. Actually, some of them are like, oh you're

662
00:34:03,325 --> 00:34:04,765
Speaker 2: from the colonies.

663
00:34:05,405 --> 00:34:07,165
Speaker 3: There's that sort of English person there who was just

664
00:34:07,165 --> 00:34:07,605
Speaker 3: so weird.

665
00:34:07,645 --> 00:34:10,325
Speaker 2: Like I remember the first I went to this one

666
00:34:10,365 --> 00:34:13,365
Speaker 2: of the old oldest scholargs is this one called Ballyol

667
00:34:13,685 --> 00:34:15,005
Speaker 2: and they're having a party.

668
00:34:15,125 --> 00:34:16,725
Speaker 3: My friend is at that college, so I.

669
00:34:16,725 --> 00:34:19,165
Speaker 2: Went and this English guy comes over to me and

670
00:34:19,165 --> 00:34:22,245
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, I hear from one of the colonies,

671
00:34:23,485 --> 00:34:23,965
Speaker 2: like old.

672
00:34:23,845 --> 00:34:27,965
Speaker 3: Timey voices, And I was like, what are you talking about?

673
00:34:28,085 --> 00:34:29,165
Speaker 1: Is he flirting or.

674
00:34:29,165 --> 00:34:32,125
Speaker 2: Is In hindsight I think maybe he was flirting, because

675
00:34:32,245 --> 00:34:33,325
Speaker 2: why would you say that?

676
00:34:33,365 --> 00:34:34,045
Speaker 3: It's so weird.

677
00:34:34,565 --> 00:34:38,885
Speaker 2: And then Kathy told me to say to them a.

678
00:34:38,965 --> 00:34:40,165
Speaker 1: Pan It would have been a part.

679
00:34:40,285 --> 00:34:42,485
Speaker 3: Yes loves a pun.

680
00:34:43,765 --> 00:34:45,685
Speaker 2: She said, Oh, if someone comes to you and says

681
00:34:45,725 --> 00:34:48,565
Speaker 2: like mean things about Australia or being from Australia, you

682
00:34:48,565 --> 00:34:51,165
Speaker 2: should say to them, oh, well, you know, my my

683
00:34:51,245 --> 00:34:53,445
Speaker 2: mom said to me that to be careful when I

684
00:34:53,445 --> 00:34:55,445
Speaker 2: go to England, because isn't that where all the convicts

685
00:34:55,445 --> 00:34:55,845
Speaker 2: came from?

686
00:34:55,925 --> 00:34:58,805
Speaker 1: Ha. So have you applaied it?

687
00:34:58,885 --> 00:35:02,725
Speaker 3: Of course I have and Atlanta. So well, yes, it's

688
00:35:02,845 --> 00:35:06,285
Speaker 3: very good, very good. That is quite good. I'm like, okay, like,

689
00:35:06,765 --> 00:35:08,005
Speaker 3: can you stop talking?

690
00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:10,525
Speaker 1: Tell me much to my course so we can rubvish you.

691
00:35:11,725 --> 00:35:13,245
Speaker 3: I'm want to read you some poetry.

692
00:35:13,365 --> 00:35:16,965
Speaker 1: Yes, So you're in Oxford. How long have you been there?

693
00:35:17,005 --> 00:35:21,765
Speaker 3: Now? So I've been there since September and you're studying

694
00:35:22,365 --> 00:35:24,045
Speaker 3: a master's of public policy.

695
00:35:24,165 --> 00:35:26,605
Speaker 1: Whatever the hell that is? So what is that?

696
00:35:26,765 --> 00:35:30,765
Speaker 2: So it's basically it's like all about good governance and

697
00:35:30,805 --> 00:35:35,965
Speaker 2: like good policy making, and it's like a factory for politicians.

698
00:35:35,965 --> 00:35:39,165
Speaker 2: I think I don't want to be a politician. No,

699
00:35:39,565 --> 00:35:41,645
Speaker 2: I'm one hundred. I swear, I swear to you.

700
00:35:41,685 --> 00:35:42,045
Speaker 3: I don't.

701
00:35:42,165 --> 00:35:45,245
Speaker 1: I know you don't don't. I'm like, you swear in

702
00:35:45,405 --> 00:35:47,005
Speaker 1: nice listen to me.

703
00:35:47,085 --> 00:35:48,405
Speaker 3: Are you sure? No?

704
00:35:49,085 --> 00:35:52,205
Speaker 1: Sure? The persecute to us at some point in the future,

705
00:35:52,245 --> 00:35:53,725
Speaker 1: like politicians like to do.

706
00:35:53,925 --> 00:35:56,325
Speaker 3: No, I'm not. I don't have any intentions. I don't

707
00:35:56,325 --> 00:35:56,965
Speaker 3: have any plans.

708
00:35:57,045 --> 00:35:59,325
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows, Maybe in like twenty years I'll

709
00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:01,485
Speaker 2: be like, Okay, yes I do want to do that,

710
00:36:01,725 --> 00:36:04,365
Speaker 2: but right now I couldn't think of anything worse than

711
00:36:04,405 --> 00:36:07,685
Speaker 2: doing that, because it's the same thing that the Today

712
00:36:07,725 --> 00:36:10,765
Speaker 2: show is right where you like, you're really public facing

713
00:36:11,485 --> 00:36:12,165
Speaker 2: and there's lots of.

714
00:36:12,085 --> 00:36:15,765
Speaker 3: Scrutiny, and you know, I don't want to I don't

715
00:36:15,805 --> 00:36:16,285
Speaker 3: want to do that.

716
00:36:16,565 --> 00:36:20,085
Speaker 1: But what what what do you do? I mean, I

717
00:36:20,085 --> 00:36:23,165
Speaker 1: guess it's you don't need to subscribe to the notion

718
00:36:23,205 --> 00:36:26,605
Speaker 1: that education is for a purpose. But what do you

719
00:36:26,725 --> 00:36:28,685
Speaker 1: do with that degree?

720
00:36:28,965 --> 00:36:31,045
Speaker 3: I guess we'll find out. I mean, you don't have

721
00:36:31,085 --> 00:36:34,165
Speaker 3: any idea, you don't have any plans. Did you choose it?

722
00:36:35,365 --> 00:36:37,725
Speaker 2: A couple of my friends had done it, and I

723
00:36:37,765 --> 00:36:40,525
Speaker 2: really liked the look of the course, So, you know,

724
00:36:40,565 --> 00:36:43,245
Speaker 2: the things that I've been learning about like have been incredible.

725
00:36:43,365 --> 00:36:47,725
Speaker 2: The first term was like political philosophy economics, and then

726
00:36:47,765 --> 00:36:53,925
Speaker 2: this term is like political science and like law. So wow,

727
00:36:54,285 --> 00:36:57,245
Speaker 2: it's pretty incredible. Like the things that I've been able

728
00:36:57,325 --> 00:37:01,925
Speaker 2: to learn while I've been there, I mean, it's beyond

729
00:37:01,965 --> 00:37:05,965
Speaker 2: my wildest imagination. Who knew that I would love economics?

730
00:37:06,005 --> 00:37:06,245
Speaker 1: Not me?

731
00:37:07,045 --> 00:37:11,485
Speaker 2: No, or like, you know, there's this one guy who

732
00:37:11,485 --> 00:37:15,405
Speaker 2: I had a lecture from Professor Dita Helm and he

733
00:37:15,445 --> 00:37:18,645
Speaker 2: talks about climate change or sustainability, and I was like,

734
00:37:18,725 --> 00:37:20,605
Speaker 2: I should probably learn more about this because I don't

735
00:37:20,605 --> 00:37:22,005
Speaker 2: really know much, but everyone talks about it all the

736
00:37:22,085 --> 00:37:23,525
Speaker 2: yam and like I kind of know, I get the

737
00:37:23,525 --> 00:37:25,645
Speaker 2: gist of it, and he starts talking about it in

738
00:37:25,645 --> 00:37:29,365
Speaker 2: a way that I completely understand and ties it in

739
00:37:29,405 --> 00:37:33,445
Speaker 2: with like economic sustainability, so like you know, paying down

740
00:37:33,485 --> 00:37:36,405
Speaker 2: debt and tying it to all of these other ideas

741
00:37:36,405 --> 00:37:39,965
Speaker 2: about you know, the way that we should tax carbon

742
00:37:40,045 --> 00:37:42,245
Speaker 2: or shouldn't tax carbon, or whether or not it's effective.

743
00:37:42,285 --> 00:37:46,405
Speaker 2: And I just feel so lucky or hearing like another

744
00:37:46,445 --> 00:37:50,085
Speaker 2: professor talk about like the moral justifications for war and

745
00:37:50,125 --> 00:37:53,365
Speaker 2: like what stands up in a criminal court and whether

746
00:37:53,485 --> 00:37:57,125
Speaker 2: international criminal courts are even you know, useful or effective.

747
00:37:57,845 --> 00:38:01,885
Speaker 2: And you know, in the current context, it feels like

748
00:38:01,925 --> 00:38:04,845
Speaker 2: such a gift to be able to contextualize everything that's

749
00:38:04,885 --> 00:38:06,925
Speaker 2: going on and say like, Okay, this is where this

750
00:38:07,005 --> 00:38:10,005
Speaker 2: fits in. And you know, I feel comfortable about this

751
00:38:10,085 --> 00:38:13,045
Speaker 2: kind of populism, but actually it's a reaction to these

752
00:38:13,085 --> 00:38:16,645
Speaker 2: economic events and this kind of migration and these kind

753
00:38:16,685 --> 00:38:21,805
Speaker 2: of conflicts and societal yeah, and so it's sort of

754
00:38:21,885 --> 00:38:24,605
Speaker 2: like it's you know, if I went over there thinking like,

755
00:38:24,765 --> 00:38:27,605
Speaker 2: oh no, the world's in such a difficult place at

756
00:38:27,605 --> 00:38:30,565
Speaker 2: the moment. Nobody wants to understand each other. Like now

757
00:38:30,605 --> 00:38:33,165
Speaker 2: I have so much more clarity around why people behave

758
00:38:33,205 --> 00:38:36,085
Speaker 2: the way they do when it comes to voting, or

759
00:38:36,485 --> 00:38:40,445
Speaker 2: like their economic behavior or you know, even I had

760
00:38:40,445 --> 00:38:42,845
Speaker 2: to do a behavioral science subject.

761
00:38:43,125 --> 00:38:43,605
Speaker 3: What's that?

762
00:38:44,165 --> 00:38:47,045
Speaker 2: So like why people behave the way the way they do?

763
00:38:47,645 --> 00:38:50,565
Speaker 2: And so like you know, the way that people will

764
00:38:50,565 --> 00:38:53,325
Speaker 2: make trade offs for you know, getting something now as

765
00:38:53,325 --> 00:38:55,405
Speaker 2: opposed to getting something in the future, So.

766
00:38:55,365 --> 00:38:57,205
Speaker 1: Then gratification is that exactly?

767
00:38:57,245 --> 00:38:59,965
Speaker 2: And like why it's so difficult for us to implement

768
00:39:00,125 --> 00:39:04,045
Speaker 2: effective climate change policy or indigenous policy because people can't

769
00:39:04,045 --> 00:39:05,645
Speaker 2: see the benefit of it for like twenty years, so

770
00:39:05,645 --> 00:39:07,445
Speaker 2: they're like, well, I don't want to pay for that

771
00:39:07,525 --> 00:39:11,245
Speaker 2: now to huge electricity bills. I'm not even going to

772
00:39:11,245 --> 00:39:13,965
Speaker 2: see the benefit of this. Like when something's intangible, it's

773
00:39:13,965 --> 00:39:15,005
Speaker 2: really hard to get people.

774
00:39:14,805 --> 00:39:15,325
Speaker 3: To commit to it.

775
00:39:16,805 --> 00:39:20,125
Speaker 2: It's being able to understand people in that way when

776
00:39:20,965 --> 00:39:24,165
Speaker 2: it feels like, you know, so many people are making

777
00:39:24,205 --> 00:39:26,325
Speaker 2: decisions that are really self interested.

778
00:39:26,685 --> 00:39:28,605
Speaker 3: It's a gift, Yes.

779
00:39:28,445 --> 00:39:30,405
Speaker 1: It's a gift. Hey, how much does it cost to

780
00:39:30,445 --> 00:39:31,405
Speaker 1: study at Oxford?

781
00:39:31,645 --> 00:39:32,045
Speaker 3: A lot?

782
00:39:32,285 --> 00:39:33,565
Speaker 1: Like I knew it would be a lot.

783
00:39:33,645 --> 00:39:35,565
Speaker 3: It's a lot of money. It's such a privilege.

784
00:39:35,605 --> 00:39:38,845
Speaker 1: And did you had you always been like when you

785
00:39:38,925 --> 00:39:41,565
Speaker 1: were doing the Today Show, once you had the realization

786
00:39:41,685 --> 00:39:43,965
Speaker 1: where you always like, that's what you were saving up

787
00:39:44,005 --> 00:39:45,365
Speaker 1: to be able to do, That's what I.

788
00:39:45,325 --> 00:39:46,085
Speaker 3: Was working towards.

789
00:39:46,085 --> 00:39:48,365
Speaker 2: And I got a scholarship from Aurora, so I got

790
00:39:48,405 --> 00:39:52,765
Speaker 2: the Charlie Perkins che Evening Scholarship, and so that that's

791
00:39:52,885 --> 00:39:54,445
Speaker 2: just so wonderful, like.

792
00:39:54,605 --> 00:39:57,565
Speaker 1: And does that cover you for the three years at

793
00:39:57,605 --> 00:39:59,805
Speaker 1: Hell year one year?

794
00:39:59,925 --> 00:40:03,245
Speaker 2: And actually I will give a shout out to the

795
00:40:03,285 --> 00:40:05,165
Speaker 2: other woman who's doing it with me. So there's another

796
00:40:05,165 --> 00:40:08,605
Speaker 2: Aboriginal woman doing the same course. She's from Darwin. Her

797
00:40:08,645 --> 00:40:14,485
Speaker 2: name's Marlin And honestly, like, I'm just endlessly just inspired

798
00:40:14,525 --> 00:40:19,325
Speaker 2: by her. And she's incredible. So her background is in

799
00:40:19,405 --> 00:40:20,485
Speaker 2: some sort of climate work.

800
00:40:20,485 --> 00:40:21,285
Speaker 3: I don't know exactly what.

801
00:40:22,285 --> 00:40:26,165
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry much, but she's she's incredible. Like to have

802
00:40:26,205 --> 00:40:30,685
Speaker 2: two Aboriginal women in this extremely prestigious course and her

803
00:40:31,445 --> 00:40:35,205
Speaker 2: like her background means that she brings like, you know,

804
00:40:35,285 --> 00:40:37,165
Speaker 2: all of this knowledge to the course that we wouldn't

805
00:40:37,165 --> 00:40:37,885
Speaker 2: have otherwise had.

806
00:40:38,045 --> 00:40:41,925
Speaker 1: What do the poems make of that of two Aboriginal

807
00:40:41,965 --> 00:40:45,045
Speaker 1: women at Oxford or did they not have a concept

808
00:40:45,085 --> 00:40:45,325
Speaker 1: of it.

809
00:40:45,725 --> 00:40:48,325
Speaker 2: I think like in our imagination, Australia is a lot

810
00:40:48,365 --> 00:40:48,965
Speaker 2: bigger than what.

811
00:40:48,965 --> 00:40:51,405
Speaker 3: It is in their imagination.

812
00:40:52,125 --> 00:40:54,365
Speaker 2: So it's like one of like a lot of countries

813
00:40:54,405 --> 00:40:58,845
Speaker 2: that they commonized and have that experience with. Right, So

814
00:40:59,445 --> 00:41:02,365
Speaker 2: I think like they have a genuine affection for us,

815
00:41:02,405 --> 00:41:03,045
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong.

816
00:41:03,125 --> 00:41:06,525
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but it's it's.

817
00:41:06,365 --> 00:41:09,605
Speaker 2: Not as like omnipresent as they are to us. Think

818
00:41:09,605 --> 00:41:11,005
Speaker 2: about them more than they think about us.

819
00:41:11,085 --> 00:41:14,005
Speaker 1: Do they understand aboriginality.

820
00:41:14,565 --> 00:41:17,405
Speaker 2: They understand aboriginality, but only to the extent that, like

821
00:41:17,445 --> 00:41:20,565
Speaker 2: popular culture in an international context would dictate, So like

822
00:41:20,565 --> 00:41:22,845
Speaker 2: what they would see in movies or postcards or ads

823
00:41:23,045 --> 00:41:26,085
Speaker 2: or whatever, you know, like it it's not nuanced and

824
00:41:26,125 --> 00:41:30,485
Speaker 2: it's not it's not exactly right as being over there

825
00:41:30,485 --> 00:41:32,845
Speaker 2: you feel like, I don't know, it's sort of like

826
00:41:32,885 --> 00:41:35,845
Speaker 2: when you get really proud of your hometown when you

827
00:41:35,965 --> 00:41:37,365
Speaker 2: leave it, but when you live there, you're like.

828
00:41:37,325 --> 00:41:40,325
Speaker 3: Oh, I hate this place. Oh this place, like it's

829
00:41:40,365 --> 00:41:41,005
Speaker 3: so limiting.

830
00:41:41,045 --> 00:41:42,845
Speaker 2: Like I remember when I left a Muscle Brook and

831
00:41:42,885 --> 00:41:45,565
Speaker 2: I was like, gosh, I feel so stifled here.

832
00:41:46,045 --> 00:41:48,365
Speaker 3: And now I just have so much love for I

833
00:41:48,365 --> 00:41:49,645
Speaker 3: love going back there. So much.

834
00:41:50,285 --> 00:41:53,205
Speaker 2: It's like not that I ever had that really uncomfortable

835
00:41:53,245 --> 00:41:57,725
Speaker 2: relationship with Australia, but when you leave, you feel like

836
00:41:58,125 --> 00:42:01,605
Speaker 2: weirdly patriotic, like and I talk about Australian fruit and

837
00:42:01,685 --> 00:42:05,005
Speaker 2: vegetables honestly, like I'm describing like a pre depression era

838
00:42:05,605 --> 00:42:10,285
Speaker 2: like fruit tree in my grandmother's yard. Like because the country, well,

839
00:42:10,325 --> 00:42:12,565
Speaker 2: England is so small, but the population is huge, so

840
00:42:12,605 --> 00:42:14,685
Speaker 2: they don't have any of their own fruit and veggies

841
00:42:14,685 --> 00:42:17,485
Speaker 2: grown locally. And obviously Australia is so big and we

842
00:42:17,565 --> 00:42:19,645
Speaker 2: have those rules around not importing things.

843
00:42:19,885 --> 00:42:20,485
Speaker 3: So our fruit and.

844
00:42:20,525 --> 00:42:24,725
Speaker 2: Veggies are so beautiful, so so beautiful compared to other countries.

845
00:42:25,005 --> 00:42:29,645
Speaker 1: Do you think the distance And like you said, when

846
00:42:29,685 --> 00:42:33,205
Speaker 1: you come from somewhere, it's you know, familiarity breeds contempt

847
00:42:34,485 --> 00:42:38,445
Speaker 1: that when you've come back into the Australian landscape after

848
00:42:38,525 --> 00:42:42,205
Speaker 1: this period away, that's partly also why you love it.

849
00:42:42,685 --> 00:42:45,525
Speaker 2: There's a couple of things, because I think the oppressive

850
00:42:45,565 --> 00:42:48,845
Speaker 2: winter in the UK is something and I know, like

851
00:42:48,925 --> 00:42:51,725
Speaker 2: everyone talks about the weather, but when you're there, it's

852
00:42:51,805 --> 00:42:53,845
Speaker 2: like a character in your life, Like it is like

853
00:42:54,765 --> 00:43:01,445
Speaker 2: a weird omnipresent Leeden's it's so heavy. Like I remember

854
00:43:01,485 --> 00:43:04,565
Speaker 2: the first time that the sunset at like three point thirty.

855
00:43:04,685 --> 00:43:07,005
Speaker 2: This is in November, so what's that four or five

856
00:43:07,005 --> 00:43:10,165
Speaker 2: months ago? And I was sitting there in the kitchen

857
00:43:10,165 --> 00:43:13,045
Speaker 2: at my friend's house, typing away doing some study and

858
00:43:13,165 --> 00:43:14,925
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's got to be like eight o'clock.

859
00:43:15,125 --> 00:43:16,245
Speaker 3: And I looked at my phone.

860
00:43:16,285 --> 00:43:18,405
Speaker 2: It was four point thirty in the afternoon, and I

861
00:43:18,485 --> 00:43:23,325
Speaker 2: felt a wave of claustrophobia or like just darkness come

862
00:43:23,325 --> 00:43:26,165
Speaker 2: over me. To think it was like that feeling where

863
00:43:26,165 --> 00:43:28,165
Speaker 2: you can't see the horizon or you can't.

864
00:43:27,885 --> 00:43:29,005
Speaker 3: See like the leak.

865
00:43:29,605 --> 00:43:31,765
Speaker 1: It was so heavy, and I was like, this is

866
00:43:31,805 --> 00:43:34,645
Speaker 1: what they're talking about seasonal adjustment disorders.

867
00:43:34,725 --> 00:43:36,485
Speaker 3: Yes, SAD. Sad's real.

868
00:43:36,685 --> 00:43:40,005
Speaker 2: And the cold, like I've never experienced anything like that

869
00:43:40,045 --> 00:43:42,685
Speaker 2: for that extended period, and so like every time I

870
00:43:42,725 --> 00:43:43,965
Speaker 2: left the house it felt like I was going on

871
00:43:44,005 --> 00:43:47,965
Speaker 2: a mission to Mordoor because you have to like cover

872
00:43:48,045 --> 00:43:49,645
Speaker 2: yourself up into every single place.

873
00:43:49,685 --> 00:43:52,245
Speaker 3: It's the ease of getting around.

874
00:43:52,125 --> 00:43:54,245
Speaker 2: Or living like that, I think is something that's lost

875
00:43:54,245 --> 00:43:56,325
Speaker 2: on us as Australians, Like I think that's why we're

876
00:43:56,365 --> 00:43:59,125
Speaker 2: so happy and so generally carefree.

877
00:43:59,325 --> 00:44:00,965
Speaker 3: Andy and the.

878
00:44:00,965 --> 00:44:05,045
Speaker 2: Vitamin D because life is just so easy here compared

879
00:44:05,045 --> 00:44:07,085
Speaker 2: to over there, because if you have to be prepared

880
00:44:07,605 --> 00:44:08,405
Speaker 2: or you will suffer.

881
00:44:08,605 --> 00:44:11,205
Speaker 1: Now, you know, that's a very interesting thing to hear

882
00:44:11,285 --> 00:44:15,205
Speaker 1: now in a climate in which Australians don't feel like

883
00:44:15,325 --> 00:44:19,685
Speaker 1: life is easy here compared to how it was. But

884
00:44:19,805 --> 00:44:21,165
Speaker 1: you are a messenger from a.

885
00:44:21,165 --> 00:44:25,205
Speaker 3: Broad an angel.

886
00:44:25,925 --> 00:44:30,485
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a prophet who's return from.

887
00:44:30,285 --> 00:44:31,005
Speaker 3: Far away land.

888
00:44:31,085 --> 00:44:34,525
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, with messages of hope.

889
00:44:33,605 --> 00:44:35,085
Speaker 3: Yeah.

890
00:44:35,245 --> 00:44:37,445
Speaker 2: It's really expensive over there too. It's so much more

891
00:44:37,485 --> 00:44:41,725
Speaker 2: expensive than you like. It's you can't do anything. There's

892
00:44:41,725 --> 00:44:44,365
Speaker 2: no you can't go to the movies or like go

893
00:44:44,405 --> 00:44:47,685
Speaker 2: and have a sauna or whatever. It's so prohibitively expensive

894
00:44:48,005 --> 00:44:50,045
Speaker 2: unless you find a deal or like you can get

895
00:44:50,045 --> 00:44:52,165
Speaker 2: some sort of secret way. You have to work while

896
00:44:52,205 --> 00:44:54,205
Speaker 2: you're there, No, you can't work.

897
00:44:54,685 --> 00:44:57,525
Speaker 3: So I think you can if you get like special permission.

898
00:44:57,925 --> 00:45:00,365
Speaker 2: But like, the sole focus while you're at Oxford has

899
00:45:00,405 --> 00:45:01,325
Speaker 2: to be academia.

900
00:45:01,365 --> 00:45:05,125
Speaker 1: Well you've certainly done that. You wowed me with your

901
00:45:05,325 --> 00:45:09,285
Speaker 1: high for Luton academic talk. Did I really a little bit?

902
00:45:09,605 --> 00:45:11,205
Speaker 1: I was like, I bet you didn't talk like that

903
00:45:11,245 --> 00:45:14,485
Speaker 1: to Jason Momoa.

904
00:45:14,565 --> 00:45:17,325
Speaker 3: We definitely talked about economics.

905
00:45:18,925 --> 00:45:22,325
Speaker 1: That's not all of my conversation with Brooke Boney coming up,

906
00:45:22,445 --> 00:45:26,645
Speaker 1: we talk about how animals make the world better and

907
00:45:26,885 --> 00:45:36,525
Speaker 1: why she is so interested in sport. Hey, have you

908
00:45:37,685 --> 00:45:39,805
Speaker 1: touched base with the Today Family?

909
00:45:40,085 --> 00:45:41,285
Speaker 3: Yes, I've called them.

910
00:45:41,365 --> 00:45:46,845
Speaker 2: I tried to get Carl, but he's on holidays because.

911
00:45:46,645 --> 00:45:47,565
Speaker 3: They work so hard.

912
00:45:47,805 --> 00:45:50,085
Speaker 1: It's true, but a lot of people work hard, and

913
00:45:50,125 --> 00:45:51,125
Speaker 1: don't get that's true.

914
00:45:51,205 --> 00:45:53,365
Speaker 2: That is true for a lot of people work hard.

915
00:45:53,765 --> 00:45:56,765
Speaker 2: Then I spoke to Sarah yesterday, and you get so.

916
00:45:56,805 --> 00:45:59,325
Speaker 3: Close when you're working. You would know from the breakfast.

917
00:45:59,005 --> 00:46:03,445
Speaker 1: Radio intimacy because you're peaceable, you wake up with it's

918
00:46:03,485 --> 00:46:07,245
Speaker 1: exactly right and then and that's why it's important that

919
00:46:07,325 --> 00:46:10,845
Speaker 1: you like the people. You wake up with the chemistry song. Yes,

920
00:46:11,285 --> 00:46:15,165
Speaker 1: and also if things start to go awry from early mornings,

921
00:46:16,165 --> 00:46:18,645
Speaker 1: then they really go off the skids and it.

922
00:46:18,605 --> 00:46:20,765
Speaker 2: Goes off quickly and you can't do anything about it.

923
00:46:21,485 --> 00:46:25,205
Speaker 2: I think, well, I've never seen it happen, but I mean.

924
00:46:25,405 --> 00:46:27,965
Speaker 1: But we do know, we know, we're historically it's happened,

925
00:46:27,965 --> 00:46:30,565
Speaker 1: and I've seen it in a lot of breakfast radio shows.

926
00:46:30,965 --> 00:46:35,525
Speaker 2: It's the relationships are so so important and you get

927
00:46:35,565 --> 00:46:37,725
Speaker 2: so close because you go through everything together. So like

928
00:46:38,085 --> 00:46:40,125
Speaker 2: if you're I don't know, like if your mum's sick

929
00:46:40,285 --> 00:46:43,125
Speaker 2: or your sister's going through something, or you know you're

930
00:46:43,125 --> 00:46:45,485
Speaker 2: going through a breakup or you know you're moving house

931
00:46:45,565 --> 00:46:47,365
Speaker 2: or whatever, you all know about it.

932
00:46:47,885 --> 00:46:49,085
Speaker 3: You're all sort of in it together.

933
00:46:49,565 --> 00:46:52,885
Speaker 2: It's like it's the most intimate sort of professional relationship

934
00:46:52,885 --> 00:46:53,525
Speaker 2: that you would ever have.

935
00:46:53,685 --> 00:46:56,365
Speaker 3: I think that those breakfast hours.

936
00:46:56,005 --> 00:47:00,005
Speaker 1: And do you miss the camaraderie of that, Yes.

937
00:46:59,845 --> 00:47:01,765
Speaker 3: I do, because I know I'll never have a job

938
00:47:02,045 --> 00:47:02,845
Speaker 3: like that again.

939
00:47:03,405 --> 00:47:04,965
Speaker 1: What do you think your next rubblery?

940
00:47:05,205 --> 00:47:07,805
Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like I promise I'm not

941
00:47:07,885 --> 00:47:09,605
Speaker 2: keeping like a secret, and I'm going to, like, you know,

942
00:47:09,685 --> 00:47:11,445
Speaker 2: in a few weeks be like surprise.

943
00:47:11,325 --> 00:47:13,565
Speaker 3: This is my new gig. You assume me on a

944
00:47:13,605 --> 00:47:16,205
Speaker 3: poster going like this, that's not going to happen. I

945
00:47:16,205 --> 00:47:16,765
Speaker 3: don't know.

946
00:47:16,765 --> 00:47:19,325
Speaker 1: Brook Bony's Prime Minister. Everybody, Oh my.

947
00:47:19,245 --> 00:47:22,525
Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, no, no, no, no, I don't know what

948
00:47:22,645 --> 00:47:26,205
Speaker 2: it's going to be. I think this is so uncomfortable,

949
00:47:26,285 --> 00:47:28,085
Speaker 2: but I think I'm just going to see what happens.

950
00:47:28,445 --> 00:47:31,645
Speaker 3: So I finish in September, and I can't I.

951
00:47:31,605 --> 00:47:33,525
Speaker 2: Mean like, maybe someone will offer me a job and

952
00:47:33,565 --> 00:47:35,845
Speaker 2: it'll be amazing and it'll be exactly what I want.

953
00:47:36,325 --> 00:47:40,005
Speaker 2: Or maybe I'll stay over there and do more study,

954
00:47:40,205 --> 00:47:40,805
Speaker 2: or maybe.

955
00:47:41,605 --> 00:47:43,805
Speaker 1: Can I have a dog if you stay over there?

956
00:47:44,005 --> 00:47:46,925
Speaker 3: A dog? Or both of my dogs died? I know,

957
00:47:48,045 --> 00:47:50,365
Speaker 3: don't you feel? But that was do you know how

958
00:47:50,405 --> 00:47:52,725
Speaker 3: to dream about the last night? I still dream about them,

959
00:47:53,165 --> 00:47:56,285
Speaker 3: Jimmy and Ruben. Yeah, I don't know.

960
00:47:56,645 --> 00:48:00,805
Speaker 2: Pugs both pugs, which is the most impractical breed. But

961
00:48:00,845 --> 00:48:04,685
Speaker 2: can I just say, in my defense, they can't breathe, they're.

962
00:48:04,485 --> 00:48:05,605
Speaker 3: So they get so fat.

963
00:48:06,405 --> 00:48:08,405
Speaker 1: That was my pug impersonation. Look you had to look

964
00:48:08,445 --> 00:48:09,605
Speaker 1: away then, too.

965
00:48:10,165 --> 00:48:13,005
Speaker 3: That's just too much. It was so accurate.

966
00:48:13,805 --> 00:48:16,925
Speaker 2: I feel like, it's so weird that they never really

967
00:48:17,285 --> 00:48:19,925
Speaker 2: leave you when you have a dog like that, like

968
00:48:20,005 --> 00:48:20,565
Speaker 2: that sort.

969
00:48:20,365 --> 00:48:22,605
Speaker 1: Of So I just got we just got a dog

970
00:48:23,045 --> 00:48:25,365
Speaker 1: for the first time, my first dog ever.

971
00:48:25,645 --> 00:48:27,325
Speaker 3: Do you love it so much?

972
00:48:27,525 --> 00:48:30,445
Speaker 1: I love him more than I ever thought I would.

973
00:48:30,605 --> 00:48:31,525
Speaker 3: It's weird, isn't it.

974
00:48:31,525 --> 00:48:34,205
Speaker 1: It was like when I had children, Because I'd never

975
00:48:34,245 --> 00:48:38,645
Speaker 1: been particularly maternal, I was always like, how will I be?

976
00:48:39,565 --> 00:48:42,965
Speaker 1: And then from the moment I held my first child,

977
00:48:43,325 --> 00:48:44,885
Speaker 1: I said to Peter, we were still in the hospital.

978
00:48:44,925 --> 00:48:47,205
Speaker 1: I said, let's do it again, right, just new, just

979
00:48:47,285 --> 00:48:50,805
Speaker 1: knew the dog is like that. But I think all

980
00:48:50,845 --> 00:48:55,605
Speaker 1: the time, and so when I read your love letter

981
00:48:55,725 --> 00:49:02,365
Speaker 1: to your boys, and then when you had to put

982
00:49:02,445 --> 00:49:07,205
Speaker 1: him down, put Jimmy down after because Reuben had gone already,

983
00:49:07,845 --> 00:49:14,285
Speaker 1: it was so soul rending because now even the Bearski

984
00:49:14,445 --> 00:49:17,965
Speaker 1: our dog is only two or whatever, you project yourself

985
00:49:17,965 --> 00:49:20,205
Speaker 1: forward every time you see a dog or you see

986
00:49:20,245 --> 00:49:24,845
Speaker 1: a story about a dog, and I totally understand you

987
00:49:25,805 --> 00:49:30,165
Speaker 1: when you talk about the grief of it, like proper grief.

988
00:49:31,885 --> 00:49:35,125
Speaker 2: So I feel like every time I go back and

989
00:49:35,165 --> 00:49:38,365
Speaker 2: read that one, that one affects me more than nearly

990
00:49:38,405 --> 00:49:43,925
Speaker 2: any of the others. It makes me sob because I think,

991
00:49:44,725 --> 00:49:46,885
Speaker 2: like if you've never had that sort of really secure,

992
00:49:47,005 --> 00:49:51,565
Speaker 2: unconditional love and you get a dog and it's yours,

993
00:49:52,325 --> 00:49:59,205
Speaker 2: when it's gone, it's it's heartbreaking, like there's nothing that

994
00:49:59,245 --> 00:50:03,525
Speaker 2: can fill the void, and like beyond that, like death

995
00:50:03,645 --> 00:50:05,645
Speaker 2: just doesn't make any sense to me at all, because

996
00:50:05,685 --> 00:50:09,525
Speaker 2: I don't understand how something can exist one day and

997
00:50:09,565 --> 00:50:11,885
Speaker 2: then not the next, Like it would be like if

998
00:50:11,885 --> 00:50:16,325
Speaker 2: this table just vaporized, because that's essentially what happens, Like

999
00:50:16,645 --> 00:50:18,845
Speaker 2: not that their physical bodies do that, but everything that.

1000
00:50:18,805 --> 00:50:21,165
Speaker 3: Makes them them them does that.

1001
00:50:21,205 --> 00:50:24,365
Speaker 1: And that because when when they or someone you love

1002
00:50:24,965 --> 00:50:28,805
Speaker 1: is alive, they're so alive, they're so alive, and then

1003
00:50:28,805 --> 00:50:30,165
Speaker 1: there's suddenly not then what.

1004
00:50:30,125 --> 00:50:31,045
Speaker 3: Like what happens?

1005
00:50:31,245 --> 00:50:35,885
Speaker 2: Like that doesn't make any sense, like in a scientific way,

1006
00:50:35,885 --> 00:50:37,645
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense to me, Like where does that go?

1007
00:50:37,765 --> 00:50:38,285
Speaker 3: What is that?

1008
00:50:38,365 --> 00:50:40,165
Speaker 1: You need to do a class on this at Oxford

1009
00:50:41,325 --> 00:50:43,405
Speaker 1: So they'd be running some sort of class.

1010
00:50:43,165 --> 00:50:44,965
Speaker 3: There would one hundred percent be some sort of thing

1011
00:50:44,965 --> 00:50:46,525
Speaker 3: about life, but it really is.

1012
00:50:47,285 --> 00:50:50,445
Speaker 1: You know, you were saying to be loved in that

1013
00:50:50,605 --> 00:50:54,805
Speaker 1: accepting sort of way. That is one half of it.

1014
00:50:54,845 --> 00:51:01,005
Speaker 1: But I also think that dogs activate in us our

1015
00:51:01,045 --> 00:51:07,085
Speaker 1: own goodness because of their extreme trust of us, Like

1016
00:51:07,125 --> 00:51:08,765
Speaker 1: when are you ever trusted like that?

1017
00:51:09,485 --> 00:51:13,005
Speaker 3: Life? I think.

1018
00:51:14,325 --> 00:51:17,685
Speaker 2: They like it's just such a safe way to pour

1019
00:51:17,765 --> 00:51:20,245
Speaker 2: your love out right, like every other experience that you

1020
00:51:20,285 --> 00:51:23,245
Speaker 2: have of love, whether it's like your parents or your

1021
00:51:23,285 --> 00:51:25,645
Speaker 2: partner or I think maybe your kids is different.

1022
00:51:25,805 --> 00:51:26,605
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1023
00:51:26,645 --> 00:51:29,245
Speaker 2: It's like it's one of those things where you can

1024
00:51:29,365 --> 00:51:32,645
Speaker 2: pour so much of yourself into it because you know

1025
00:51:32,725 --> 00:51:34,765
Speaker 2: there is like no risk. You can be as vulnerable

1026
00:51:34,805 --> 00:51:37,765
Speaker 2: as you want, because there's no risk that they're going

1027
00:51:37,845 --> 00:51:41,885
Speaker 2: to do something with your love that's like a betrayal,

1028
00:51:42,285 --> 00:51:45,525
Speaker 2: or that they're unworthy of it, or like you'll discover

1029
00:51:45,605 --> 00:51:47,685
Speaker 2: that you know that they're undeserving.

1030
00:51:48,445 --> 00:51:53,005
Speaker 3: It's it's so pure, it's so so pure.

1031
00:51:53,365 --> 00:51:57,285
Speaker 1: I think before I had experienced it, I think I was.

1032
00:51:57,245 --> 00:52:01,525
Speaker 3: A bit I know. That's why I was embarrassed about it.

1033
00:52:02,085 --> 00:52:04,965
Speaker 2: Like I was so embarrassed about being so sad because

1034
00:52:04,965 --> 00:52:05,965
Speaker 2: I was like, people are going.

1035
00:52:05,965 --> 00:52:09,045
Speaker 3: To think I'm insane?

1036
00:52:09,685 --> 00:52:13,005
Speaker 2: Who when to We first started getting really old, like

1037
00:52:13,085 --> 00:52:17,165
Speaker 2: after Reuben had passed away, and Mum was like, why

1038
00:52:17,165 --> 00:52:20,125
Speaker 2: don't you get one of those brands right and you

1039
00:52:20,125 --> 00:52:21,725
Speaker 2: can push him around the park, like at least you

1040
00:52:21,765 --> 00:52:22,565
Speaker 2: can still go down, And.

1041
00:52:22,485 --> 00:52:25,605
Speaker 3: I'm like, Mum, people are going to think I'm insane.

1042
00:52:26,125 --> 00:52:28,685
Speaker 3: Imagine if you saw a woman pushing a freaking dog

1043
00:52:28,725 --> 00:52:29,565
Speaker 3: around in a pream.

1044
00:52:30,325 --> 00:52:32,405
Speaker 1: You see it now, it's more common now, But this

1045
00:52:32,565 --> 00:52:34,645
Speaker 1: was like we have all gone insane because.

1046
00:52:34,725 --> 00:52:37,325
Speaker 2: We have all lost the plot. There's nothing, there are

1047
00:52:37,325 --> 00:52:40,525
Speaker 2: no rules anymore. Basically, no, we're too close to the end,

1048
00:52:41,125 --> 00:52:42,045
Speaker 2: so everyone's just lea.

1049
00:52:44,045 --> 00:52:46,205
Speaker 1: I think that sounds so grim.

1050
00:52:46,405 --> 00:52:51,485
Speaker 2: That sounds so grim, But okay, I wrote a column

1051
00:52:51,525 --> 00:52:54,645
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago for Sunday Life, and I was

1052
00:52:54,645 --> 00:52:56,445
Speaker 2: talking about how it's really important not to engage in

1053
00:52:56,485 --> 00:52:58,965
Speaker 2: hyperbole when we talk about women's rights, because we do

1054
00:52:59,045 --> 00:53:00,685
Speaker 2: have far better than any of the other women who

1055
00:53:00,725 --> 00:53:01,485
Speaker 2: have gone for us.

1056
00:53:01,885 --> 00:53:04,685
Speaker 1: And that's a very point. It's also because people do

1057
00:53:04,885 --> 00:53:06,645
Speaker 1: like to they're like, oh, it's the worst we've never

1058
00:53:06,645 --> 00:53:06,925
Speaker 1: had anything.

1059
00:53:07,125 --> 00:53:08,885
Speaker 2: Yet we have and actually there are a lot of

1060
00:53:08,885 --> 00:53:11,245
Speaker 2: women who are still having a pretty bad experience right now,

1061
00:53:11,525 --> 00:53:15,765
Speaker 2: let's just be reasonable, like just everyone chill. But then,

1062
00:53:15,925 --> 00:53:17,685
Speaker 2: like in the last couple of weeks, you know, the

1063
00:53:17,725 --> 00:53:21,205
Speaker 2: way that things are playing out in like an international context,

1064
00:53:21,925 --> 00:53:24,525
Speaker 2: it's really hard to learn about the all of the

1065
00:53:24,605 --> 00:53:27,365
Speaker 2: norms that have been established over decades and decades and

1066
00:53:27,365 --> 00:53:35,845
Speaker 2: decades to prevent us from catastrophe being like violated or broken,

1067
00:53:35,925 --> 00:53:37,925
Speaker 2: like all of these agreements that we have between countries

1068
00:53:38,005 --> 00:53:39,965
Speaker 2: to make sure that you know that there's a balance

1069
00:53:39,965 --> 00:53:42,165
Speaker 2: of power between the US and Russia or the US

1070
00:53:42,205 --> 00:53:42,805
Speaker 2: and China.

1071
00:53:42,605 --> 00:53:44,525
Speaker 1: Alway, and our allies are and who are.

1072
00:53:44,645 --> 00:53:47,525
Speaker 2: Exactly yeah, and you know, like if Russia can do

1073
00:53:47,565 --> 00:53:50,765
Speaker 2: that to Ukraine and we let them, then what does

1074
00:53:50,805 --> 00:53:54,285
Speaker 2: that say for any other context? You know, we can't

1075
00:53:54,925 --> 00:53:59,725
Speaker 2: I can't underestimate or I can't understate just how scary

1076
00:53:59,765 --> 00:54:03,645
Speaker 2: it is for the people who I've been learning from

1077
00:54:03,685 --> 00:54:06,005
Speaker 2: to see all of these things that they're teaching us

1078
00:54:07,805 --> 00:54:10,525
Speaker 2: changed so quickly, all of these rules about how we

1079
00:54:10,565 --> 00:54:13,925
Speaker 2: engage you know, what happens with NATO, and you know,

1080
00:54:14,005 --> 00:54:16,205
Speaker 2: like the rules of war, and you know, do we

1081
00:54:16,245 --> 00:54:19,325
Speaker 2: give small parts of Ukraine to Russia just in order

1082
00:54:19,365 --> 00:54:20,245
Speaker 2: to appease them and stuff?

1083
00:54:20,245 --> 00:54:22,445
Speaker 3: But there are people who live there they don't want

1084
00:54:22,485 --> 00:54:24,565
Speaker 3: to be Russian. But also told us that.

1085
00:54:24,765 --> 00:54:32,605
Speaker 1: I think that this rapid movement of the world is

1086
00:54:32,645 --> 00:54:37,165
Speaker 1: also reflected by what's happening in our media and social media,

1087
00:54:37,325 --> 00:54:43,365
Speaker 1: Like things have never been so so quick to change

1088
00:54:43,445 --> 00:54:49,445
Speaker 1: and have it and so then it throws everything into overdrive. Yeah,

1089
00:54:49,925 --> 00:54:53,165
Speaker 1: and even people look at the past through the prism

1090
00:54:53,205 --> 00:54:56,645
Speaker 1: of the present and it's like you're canceled, you're you know,

1091
00:54:56,965 --> 00:54:59,525
Speaker 1: it's all of it is a lot.

1092
00:54:59,845 --> 00:55:03,605
Speaker 2: I think I've watched a movie recently in London September five,

1093
00:55:03,685 --> 00:55:06,645
Speaker 2: and it's about all these people being taken hostage at

1094
00:55:06,645 --> 00:55:07,245
Speaker 2: the Olympics.

1095
00:55:07,445 --> 00:55:08,885
Speaker 3: I actually can have vine to the premiere. I was

1096
00:55:08,885 --> 00:55:09,965
Speaker 3: surprised that they invited me.

1097
00:55:10,085 --> 00:55:13,125
Speaker 2: Oh, but then I was like, I guess it's pretty niche,

1098
00:55:13,165 --> 00:55:15,645
Speaker 2: like journalists who have been to the Olympics, who are

1099
00:55:15,645 --> 00:55:15,925
Speaker 2: in lies.

1100
00:55:16,165 --> 00:55:19,125
Speaker 1: They're in English, Brooke Bony on the red carpet, waiting

1101
00:55:19,165 --> 00:55:20,725
Speaker 1: to interview you, Brooke Bony.

1102
00:55:20,845 --> 00:55:22,165
Speaker 3: No, they didn't care about me at all.

1103
00:55:22,405 --> 00:55:23,845
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you can just go over there and

1104
00:55:23,845 --> 00:55:27,365
Speaker 2: take some photos of yourself if you want. But what

1105
00:55:27,445 --> 00:55:29,245
Speaker 2: I was thinking about because it was sort of like

1106
00:55:29,325 --> 00:55:31,405
Speaker 2: right at the beginning of like twenty four hour News,

1107
00:55:31,965 --> 00:55:33,645
Speaker 2: and so they were broadcasting I don't want to give

1108
00:55:33,645 --> 00:55:35,325
Speaker 2: away the plot of the movie, but they were broadcasting

1109
00:55:35,365 --> 00:55:38,205
Speaker 2: parts of what was happening live this hostage situation and

1110
00:55:38,245 --> 00:55:41,925
Speaker 2: had never really been done before. And as it was happening,

1111
00:55:41,965 --> 00:55:43,525
Speaker 2: like as I was watching the movie, I was thinking,

1112
00:55:44,085 --> 00:55:49,765
Speaker 2: the proliferation of news is maybe not so helpful because

1113
00:55:49,805 --> 00:55:53,165
Speaker 2: you could make the argument that, you know, we don't

1114
00:55:53,165 --> 00:55:55,925
Speaker 2: need to know everything. You know, how is it helpful

1115
00:55:55,925 --> 00:55:58,605
Speaker 2: to us to know that this is going on at

1116
00:55:58,805 --> 00:56:01,245
Speaker 2: this particular moment in this hostage situation. Is that going

1117
00:56:01,285 --> 00:56:03,565
Speaker 2: to help the hostages in any way? Is it going

1118
00:56:03,605 --> 00:56:06,965
Speaker 2: to help with any sort of democratic process. Is it

1119
00:56:07,005 --> 00:56:08,885
Speaker 2: going to help with some sort of freedom of speech thing?

1120
00:56:09,405 --> 00:56:11,605
Speaker 3: Like what what does it actually do that is helpful?

1121
00:56:12,045 --> 00:56:14,565
Speaker 2: And so then if we don't, like we don't need

1122
00:56:14,605 --> 00:56:18,125
Speaker 2: to know everything, then why do we always like there's

1123
00:56:18,165 --> 00:56:20,965
Speaker 2: just so much of it. There's so much of it,

1124
00:56:21,365 --> 00:56:25,245
Speaker 2: and I don't know that all of it is particularly helpful.

1125
00:56:25,245 --> 00:56:26,965
Speaker 2: And then you get this situation a lot of it

1126
00:56:27,005 --> 00:56:27,645
Speaker 2: is not helpful.

1127
00:56:27,765 --> 00:56:28,285
Speaker 3: Then you get these.

1128
00:56:28,205 --> 00:56:30,525
Speaker 2: Situations where you have to feel time for things right,

1129
00:56:30,605 --> 00:56:33,805
Speaker 2: and so then people are getting like weird guests on

1130
00:56:33,805 --> 00:56:35,405
Speaker 2: all like I don't know, we've all seen those like

1131
00:56:35,405 --> 00:56:39,885
Speaker 2: weird news clips, and likewise it's like up late talking

1132
00:56:39,885 --> 00:56:44,765
Speaker 2: about this bizarre theory. But like I guess, the natural

1133
00:56:45,925 --> 00:56:48,485
Speaker 2: the natural progression of that is the splintering of it

1134
00:56:48,565 --> 00:56:51,885
Speaker 2: all and the undermining of what's true and the undermining

1135
00:56:51,925 --> 00:56:55,365
Speaker 2: of journalistic ethics and people not being able to doubt.

1136
00:56:55,485 --> 00:57:00,525
Speaker 1: I believe exactly what you ever be a showbiz reporter

1137
00:57:00,845 --> 00:57:01,365
Speaker 1: on today?

1138
00:57:01,805 --> 00:57:04,485
Speaker 2: To be fair, I am talking about a movie.

1139
00:57:06,685 --> 00:57:08,325
Speaker 3: Yes you are, all right?

1140
00:57:09,685 --> 00:57:11,605
Speaker 1: Let me just ask you quickly about a few things

1141
00:57:11,685 --> 00:57:14,565
Speaker 1: from your book. All right, The interest in sport.

1142
00:57:15,005 --> 00:57:15,725
Speaker 3: I love sport.

1143
00:57:16,005 --> 00:57:16,885
Speaker 1: You love sport.

1144
00:57:17,045 --> 00:57:18,045
Speaker 3: I love it so much.

1145
00:57:18,205 --> 00:57:21,565
Speaker 2: I think it's so funny that people are surprised by that.

1146
00:57:21,605 --> 00:57:23,485
Speaker 2: Now tell me maybe you're one of these people, Like

1147
00:57:23,565 --> 00:57:26,805
Speaker 2: do you think of sport and think, oh, meatheads, Oh

1148
00:57:26,885 --> 00:57:28,165
Speaker 2: that's such a bogain thing to love.

1149
00:57:28,645 --> 00:57:30,325
Speaker 3: Oh whykay?

1150
00:57:30,925 --> 00:57:34,405
Speaker 1: I have developed respect for sport through watching my children

1151
00:57:34,445 --> 00:57:37,925
Speaker 1: play sport. I never knew any sport, never played any sport.

1152
00:57:38,245 --> 00:57:41,205
Speaker 1: We were Jiva's witness, so where was door knocking on weekends?

1153
00:57:42,525 --> 00:57:49,125
Speaker 1: And I do not underestimate what it teaches what it brings.

1154
00:57:50,005 --> 00:57:53,885
Speaker 1: But I'm still astounded by how much you love sport

1155
00:57:53,965 --> 00:58:00,165
Speaker 1: and your interest in cranial injuries, because.

1156
00:57:59,965 --> 00:58:02,845
Speaker 2: I feel like it's just so interesting, right, Like I

1157
00:58:02,885 --> 00:58:07,005
Speaker 2: think sport is so wonderful because it's like theater, Like

1158
00:58:07,085 --> 00:58:10,325
Speaker 2: it lets you experience things really intense way in a

1159
00:58:10,325 --> 00:58:11,885
Speaker 2: really short period of time. Like you can go and

1160
00:58:11,925 --> 00:58:15,285
Speaker 2: see like like a play, and you're really laughing and

1161
00:58:15,325 --> 00:58:17,845
Speaker 2: crying and feeling all of these things really intensely, like

1162
00:58:18,005 --> 00:58:18,565
Speaker 2: in real life.

1163
00:58:18,605 --> 00:58:21,085
Speaker 3: They're real emotions. And sport does the same thing.

1164
00:58:21,645 --> 00:58:25,365
Speaker 2: Like if you go to the Swans, or actually if

1165
00:58:25,405 --> 00:58:27,885
Speaker 2: you go to like an English soccer game and you

1166
00:58:27,925 --> 00:58:30,845
Speaker 2: see them these Englishmen, and they're famous for being stoic,

1167
00:58:30,925 --> 00:58:33,325
Speaker 2: right and like quite unemotional and quite cold. Do you

1168
00:58:33,365 --> 00:58:37,565
Speaker 2: see them like singing in unison making up songs about

1169
00:58:37,565 --> 00:58:39,525
Speaker 2: these people who are their heroes, like the coaches and

1170
00:58:39,565 --> 00:58:43,085
Speaker 2: the players, And these are beautiful and funny and clever songs,

1171
00:58:43,725 --> 00:58:48,805
Speaker 2: and they're like openly weeping and like like jubilant if

1172
00:58:48,805 --> 00:58:51,325
Speaker 2: they you know, if they win. And I just think

1173
00:58:51,325 --> 00:58:56,405
Speaker 2: that that is a pretty special experience for any of us,

1174
00:58:57,045 --> 00:58:59,965
Speaker 2: but that sport can elicit that, and I don't like

1175
00:59:00,045 --> 00:59:04,765
Speaker 2: that there's this sort of like I don't know like

1176
00:59:04,845 --> 00:59:07,845
Speaker 2: that there's this like people think that it's it's not

1177
00:59:07,925 --> 00:59:10,965
Speaker 2: as clever or intense or or thoughtful as other kinds

1178
00:59:11,005 --> 00:59:13,725
Speaker 2: of expressions because it isn't like the same amount of

1179
00:59:13,725 --> 00:59:14,525
Speaker 2: work goes into it.

1180
00:59:15,205 --> 00:59:17,085
Speaker 1: Yes, a lot of work goes into it.

1181
00:59:17,165 --> 00:59:20,445
Speaker 2: And I think as well, like people, if it's not

1182
00:59:20,565 --> 00:59:23,525
Speaker 2: something that's like intellectual, then people just feel like they're

1183
00:59:23,565 --> 00:59:27,085
Speaker 2: superior to it, yes, and they like if something is

1184
00:59:27,085 --> 00:59:29,605
Speaker 2: like physical, or if it's if it's something that's like

1185
00:59:29,645 --> 00:59:32,085
Speaker 2: a different kind of challenging, then then they feel like

1186
00:59:32,165 --> 00:59:33,525
Speaker 2: some sort of sense of superior.

1187
00:59:34,125 --> 00:59:36,485
Speaker 1: Australia, I think it's a great equalizer.

1188
00:59:36,765 --> 00:59:38,085
Speaker 3: Yes, it is.

1189
00:59:38,085 --> 00:59:40,805
Speaker 1: I don't think people feel superior to it. In fact,

1190
00:59:40,885 --> 00:59:44,525
Speaker 1: the opposite way. You see politicians pretending that they go

1191
00:59:44,645 --> 00:59:46,605
Speaker 1: for a team because they think that that's going to

1192
00:59:46,765 --> 00:59:48,845
Speaker 1: ingratiate themselves with.

1193
00:59:48,565 --> 00:59:49,765
Speaker 3: The thing with people.

1194
00:59:50,205 --> 00:59:53,565
Speaker 2: What about there's that clip of Rishi Sooner during the

1195
00:59:53,565 --> 00:59:55,485
Speaker 2: election and he was trying to talk to some people

1196
00:59:55,525 --> 00:59:57,645
Speaker 2: because he's so right, it's like hundreds of millions of

1197
00:59:57,685 --> 01:00:00,485
Speaker 2: dollars pounds and he's trying to talk to like some

1198
01:00:00,565 --> 01:00:03,565
Speaker 2: commoners that he's like, oh, yes, what about the football

1199
01:00:03,725 --> 01:00:04,125
Speaker 2: or whatever?

1200
01:00:05,205 --> 01:00:06,685
Speaker 3: Like what like he just.

1201
01:00:06,605 --> 01:00:09,565
Speaker 1: Said like the completely wrong thing because he was just

1202
01:00:09,565 --> 01:00:13,925
Speaker 1: trying to grasp something that might make him popular for

1203
01:00:13,965 --> 01:00:14,405
Speaker 1: a moment.

1204
01:00:14,485 --> 01:00:16,245
Speaker 3: He didn't speak the language, like he didn't know.

1205
01:00:16,445 --> 01:00:21,365
Speaker 1: Hey, do you feel because you talk in the book

1206
01:00:21,405 --> 01:00:24,925
Speaker 1: about that your whole body, body image, or the way

1207
01:00:24,965 --> 01:00:27,405
Speaker 1: that you perceived or the pressures on a woman in

1208
01:00:27,445 --> 01:00:29,445
Speaker 1: the public eye, well even if a woman's not in

1209
01:00:29,485 --> 01:00:33,485
Speaker 1: the public eye, now that you don't have the cameras

1210
01:00:33,525 --> 01:00:36,045
Speaker 1: on you, do you feel do you have a different

1211
01:00:36,045 --> 01:00:38,285
Speaker 1: relationship with your body and your appearance?

1212
01:00:40,645 --> 01:00:41,805
Speaker 3: Yes? I think so.

1213
01:00:43,285 --> 01:00:46,325
Speaker 2: I think part of it will probably just stay with

1214
01:00:46,325 --> 01:00:50,725
Speaker 2: me forever, like that you like that you perceived all

1215
01:00:50,725 --> 01:00:53,365
Speaker 2: the time, you know that you're looked at, of it

1216
01:00:53,445 --> 01:00:54,485
Speaker 2: that you sort of look.

1217
01:00:54,325 --> 01:00:56,645
Speaker 3: A certain way.

1218
01:00:56,725 --> 01:01:00,445
Speaker 2: But I didn't kind of realize how much of an impact,

1219
01:01:00,685 --> 01:01:03,485
Speaker 2: not just physically, but like even like emotionally, or like

1220
01:01:03,525 --> 01:01:06,805
Speaker 2: the way that I expressed myself was like filtered through

1221
01:01:06,845 --> 01:01:09,525
Speaker 2: some sort of subconscious lens of always having to be

1222
01:01:09,565 --> 01:01:12,125
Speaker 2: perceived by others. Right, And so when you when I

1223
01:01:12,165 --> 01:01:15,245
Speaker 2: stopped having to like express myself all the time and

1224
01:01:15,365 --> 01:01:17,485
Speaker 2: like you know, tell people what I'm thinking or like

1225
01:01:17,565 --> 01:01:19,885
Speaker 2: you know, talk and like more sort of was going

1226
01:01:19,885 --> 01:01:21,845
Speaker 2: in than was going out, Like I'm learning more than

1227
01:01:21,885 --> 01:01:25,805
Speaker 2: I'm than I'm you know, talking. That was kind of

1228
01:01:25,845 --> 01:01:29,765
Speaker 2: like a weird dynamic shift because I was like, oh,

1229
01:01:29,805 --> 01:01:31,845
Speaker 2: I've gone from like having millions of people listen to

1230
01:01:31,885 --> 01:01:32,605
Speaker 2: what I say every.

1231
01:01:32,405 --> 01:01:35,125
Speaker 3: Week to no one And.

1232
01:01:36,685 --> 01:01:39,445
Speaker 2: If it's it's pretty lovely, I could have say like there,

1233
01:01:40,365 --> 01:01:43,685
Speaker 2: it will never leave me, I don't think, But to

1234
01:01:43,805 --> 01:01:48,245
Speaker 2: have it dialed back and to not be super aware

1235
01:01:48,285 --> 01:01:50,205
Speaker 2: of like how I look all the time or whatever,

1236
01:01:51,045 --> 01:01:52,965
Speaker 2: it was pretty I think When I was on TV,

1237
01:01:53,085 --> 01:01:55,925
Speaker 2: like I think I would probably have like makeup on

1238
01:01:56,165 --> 01:01:58,485
Speaker 2: nearly every time I love the house, probably wouldn't leave

1239
01:01:58,485 --> 01:02:01,245
Speaker 2: the house in that makeup, and not because I'm like, oh,

1240
01:02:01,285 --> 01:02:02,805
Speaker 2: I think I'm hideous and I need to cover it up.

1241
01:02:02,805 --> 01:02:05,045
Speaker 2: And you also had your makeup done, so my makeup done,

1242
01:02:05,045 --> 01:02:06,965
Speaker 2: so I'd always be walking around done up to the night.

1243
01:02:07,325 --> 01:02:10,245
Speaker 2: But also like without that sort of fear physical feeling

1244
01:02:10,285 --> 01:02:12,605
Speaker 2: of having like a face of makeup, I felt like

1245
01:02:12,805 --> 01:02:18,165
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable, almost like lashes and hair and exposed. Yes,

1246
01:02:19,125 --> 01:02:20,845
Speaker 2: but now most of the time to class, like I

1247
01:02:20,845 --> 01:02:23,565
Speaker 2: would just put on like a bit of like tinted

1248
01:02:23,605 --> 01:02:27,405
Speaker 2: moisturizer and and mascara, and I'm so comfortable.

1249
01:02:26,885 --> 01:02:29,165
Speaker 3: With how it looks. But it took me, I reckon,

1250
01:02:29,325 --> 01:02:31,605
Speaker 3: maybe two or three months.

1251
01:02:31,325 --> 01:02:35,765
Speaker 2: To get comfortable with looking normal. And also I really

1252
01:02:36,045 --> 01:02:39,325
Speaker 2: this said, this is such a position of privilege, and

1253
01:02:39,325 --> 01:02:42,085
Speaker 2: I realized this now. I didn't realize that people felt

1254
01:02:42,085 --> 01:02:46,005
Speaker 2: so at war with themselves, like in the body that

1255
01:02:46,045 --> 01:02:48,125
Speaker 2: they live in, Like that would be like living in

1256
01:02:48,165 --> 01:02:50,765
Speaker 2: a house that's on fire. Like I didn't realize that

1257
01:02:50,765 --> 01:02:54,805
Speaker 2: people had such an awful relationship with themselves. Obviously I

1258
01:02:54,845 --> 01:02:56,965
Speaker 2: know about like eating disorders and things like that, but

1259
01:02:57,405 --> 01:03:00,245
Speaker 2: in my imagination those things are like a form of

1260
01:03:00,285 --> 01:03:03,085
Speaker 2: like depression or punishment or some sort of weird dynamic

1261
01:03:03,565 --> 01:03:05,845
Speaker 2: psychologically that you can't sort of see yourself for who

1262
01:03:05,845 --> 01:03:10,005
Speaker 2: you are. And again like please don't don't come for me,

1263
01:03:10,045 --> 01:03:12,125
Speaker 2: because I don't know. You know, that was just sort

1264
01:03:12,165 --> 01:03:14,405
Speaker 2: of I'm just describing, you know, the way that we

1265
01:03:14,485 --> 01:03:16,485
Speaker 2: sort of thought about it when I was younger. It

1266
01:03:16,525 --> 01:03:19,885
Speaker 2: wasn't like it wasn't like you're living in something that

1267
01:03:19,925 --> 01:03:21,645
Speaker 2: doesn't belong to you, or that you don't like, or

1268
01:03:21,685 --> 01:03:24,085
Speaker 2: that you you know, you feel hostile towards I didn't

1269
01:03:24,645 --> 01:03:26,925
Speaker 2: get that, and that it was such a gift and

1270
01:03:26,965 --> 01:03:29,645
Speaker 2: a privilege to be pretty much okay with yourself.

1271
01:03:29,645 --> 01:03:32,525
Speaker 1: Brook Bony, I can't wait till you're Prime minister.

1272
01:03:32,925 --> 01:03:34,085
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't.

1273
01:03:33,925 --> 01:03:39,085
Speaker 2: Say that, don't I like that is such a huge job.

1274
01:03:39,125 --> 01:03:43,005
Speaker 2: I don't think I don't like that.

1275
01:03:43,125 --> 01:03:43,405
Speaker 3: I don't.

1276
01:03:43,645 --> 01:03:45,405
Speaker 2: I would never want to do a job that big.

1277
01:03:46,165 --> 01:03:48,365
Speaker 2: I shouldn't probably say that, because like what if one

1278
01:03:48,445 --> 01:03:51,325
Speaker 2: day I wanted to do and they'll reap, they'll play

1279
01:03:51,365 --> 01:03:53,485
Speaker 2: this in campaign as Yeah, they will.

1280
01:03:53,605 --> 01:03:55,165
Speaker 3: I never want to do a job that's that big.

1281
01:03:55,205 --> 01:03:58,205
Speaker 1: Big. I can't do a big job. I mean, it

1282
01:03:58,245 --> 01:04:03,045
Speaker 1: will destroy my sweetness, I'm too sweet, all that sweet

1283
01:04:03,165 --> 01:04:04,445
Speaker 1: with my tinted moisturizer.

1284
01:04:04,485 --> 01:04:05,885
Speaker 3: I don't want to do a big job.

1285
01:04:05,845 --> 01:04:08,925
Speaker 1: Well, so at this back to the start of the book,

1286
01:04:09,925 --> 01:04:13,925
Speaker 1: one of the things that you're positing yourself with yourself

1287
01:04:14,045 --> 01:04:18,245
Speaker 1: is or to yourself, is the possibility that you won't

1288
01:04:18,285 --> 01:04:22,285
Speaker 1: be fulfilling that part of yourself that's been rewarded by

1289
01:04:22,325 --> 01:04:26,245
Speaker 1: being famous once you lead the Today Show, what do

1290
01:04:26,245 --> 01:04:28,485
Speaker 1: you mean? Well, so there's a part of you that,

1291
01:04:29,045 --> 01:04:33,085
Speaker 1: even though you long to see what you're like without

1292
01:04:33,165 --> 01:04:37,325
Speaker 1: the trappings of, you know, being well known, there's also

1293
01:04:37,365 --> 01:04:40,325
Speaker 1: the fear of how you will navigate the world in

1294
01:04:40,365 --> 01:04:43,565
Speaker 1: which you're not well known. How are you going at that?

1295
01:04:44,965 --> 01:04:46,165
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm going all right.

1296
01:04:46,245 --> 01:04:47,285
Speaker 1: I think you are too.

1297
01:04:47,525 --> 01:04:48,165
Speaker 3: I feel good.

1298
01:04:48,365 --> 01:04:50,365
Speaker 2: Like the first kind of couple of weeks is hard

1299
01:04:50,485 --> 01:04:54,725
Speaker 2: because everything felt like so new and so weird and

1300
01:04:54,965 --> 01:04:58,005
Speaker 2: like so foreign, like every part of it. I didn't

1301
01:04:58,005 --> 01:04:59,965
Speaker 2: know how to study, I didn't know how to do

1302
01:05:00,005 --> 01:05:03,005
Speaker 2: any of that stuff, like even I don't know just

1303
01:05:03,045 --> 01:05:05,725
Speaker 2: like sort of basic admin stuff felt like really tough

1304
01:05:06,405 --> 01:05:09,805
Speaker 2: because it's like figuring out your school email and stalling

1305
01:05:09,805 --> 01:05:10,645
Speaker 2: it into your outlook, like.

1306
01:05:10,725 --> 01:05:13,445
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no one to ask, no one to help. No,

1307
01:05:13,485 --> 01:05:15,325
Speaker 1: there's no assistant producer or whatever.

1308
01:05:15,925 --> 01:05:16,965
Speaker 3: It's like, if you need.

1309
01:05:16,925 --> 01:05:19,325
Speaker 2: Tech help or help with your admin stuff, there's people

1310
01:05:19,325 --> 01:05:21,565
Speaker 2: around that always help with us kind of thing, because

1311
01:05:21,565 --> 01:05:23,325
Speaker 2: you know, your job is to be on TV to

1312
01:05:23,365 --> 01:05:26,605
Speaker 2: present things like you've got to focus on that, and

1313
01:05:26,685 --> 01:05:27,645
Speaker 2: so I just sort of step.

1314
01:05:27,445 --> 01:05:29,445
Speaker 3: Away from that. It's like, oh my god, what have

1315
01:05:29,485 --> 01:05:33,485
Speaker 3: I done? What have I done? But no, I feel

1316
01:05:33,485 --> 01:05:36,405
Speaker 3: good like it. I don't regret it.

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01:05:36,805 --> 01:05:41,605
Speaker 1: No good. It's a good place to be, very good

1318
01:05:41,685 --> 01:05:44,605
Speaker 1: place to be. And when you regret it, you can

1319
01:05:44,645 --> 01:05:45,485
Speaker 1: come back and tell us.

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01:05:46,405 --> 01:05:48,405
Speaker 3: Come back with my head in my hand, please.

1321
01:05:48,685 --> 01:05:52,085
Speaker 1: Boney a very I'm not the first to say it,

1322
01:05:52,125 --> 01:05:53,765
Speaker 1: but it's a really beautiful book.

1323
01:05:53,965 --> 01:05:54,485
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1324
01:05:55,045 --> 01:05:59,445
Speaker 1: And you're a very lovely writer. Thank you, And you

1325
01:05:59,525 --> 01:06:09,885
Speaker 1: know what, you're very sweet. Whatever Brooks is actually thinks

1326
01:06:09,885 --> 01:06:14,405
Speaker 1: she would make a great politician. This conversation only scratched

1327
01:06:14,405 --> 01:06:16,925
Speaker 1: the surface of brooks life. And that's why she has

1328
01:06:16,965 --> 01:06:20,685
Speaker 1: written a book. It's called All of It. I loved it.

1329
01:06:21,005 --> 01:06:24,245
Speaker 1: I read it twice. I hope she believes me now.

1330
01:06:25,045 --> 01:06:28,085
Speaker 1: In fact, I could pass a quiz on her. We

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01:06:28,245 --> 01:06:32,165
Speaker 1: put all the details in the show notes. The executive

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01:06:32,205 --> 01:06:35,725
Speaker 1: producer of No Filter is Nama Brown, Senior producer is

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01:06:35,765 --> 01:06:40,045
Speaker 1: Grace Rufrey. Sound design is by Jacob Brown. And I'm

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01:06:40,085 --> 01:06:43,205
Speaker 1: your host, Kate Laine Brook. I'll be back with you

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Speaker 1: next week.