1
00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:15,414
Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the

2
00:00:15,454 --> 00:00:18,334
Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is

3
00:00:18,374 --> 00:00:19,054
Speaker 1: recorded on.

4
00:00:22,174 --> 00:00:22,334
Speaker 2: Hi.

5
00:00:22,494 --> 00:00:25,934
Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast.

6
00:00:26,014 --> 00:00:30,374
Speaker 1: The Quickie, a Brazilian influencer, is now in jail after

7
00:00:30,454 --> 00:00:33,974
Speaker 1: it was revealed that her inspirational life coaching strategy was

8
00:00:34,014 --> 00:00:37,694
Speaker 1: actually more like a cult that specialized in human trafficking.

9
00:00:37,934 --> 00:00:40,574
Speaker 3: In the name of Mother Mary and your Queen cats

10
00:00:40,614 --> 00:00:43,534
Speaker 3: Horus the Messiah, I'm Jesus Christ, understand me.

11
00:00:44,054 --> 00:00:46,974
Speaker 1: Her case has again exposed the dark side of multi

12
00:00:47,094 --> 00:00:50,374
Speaker 1: level marketing schemes, or MLMs as they're known, where women

13
00:00:50,414 --> 00:00:53,494
Speaker 1: in particular buy into schemes to make the money or,

14
00:00:53,534 --> 00:00:56,854
Speaker 1: in the case of life coaching, make them happy. Before

15
00:00:56,854 --> 00:00:59,214
Speaker 1: we delve into the dark side of life coaching, here's

16
00:00:59,254 --> 00:01:02,574
Speaker 1: the latest from the Quickie newsroom, Thursday, August one. According

17
00:01:02,654 --> 00:01:06,574
Speaker 1: to the Productivity Commissions Annual Data Compilation Report, only five

18
00:01:06,654 --> 00:01:09,454
Speaker 1: of the nineteen Closing the Gap targets are on track.

19
00:01:09,854 --> 00:01:13,694
Speaker 1: The targets that were reached included healthy birthweight, children enrolled

20
00:01:13,734 --> 00:01:18,614
Speaker 1: in preschool, and indigenous employment, but targets on early childhood development,

21
00:01:18,774 --> 00:01:22,414
Speaker 1: Indigenous adults in incarceration, children in out of home care

22
00:01:22,494 --> 00:01:26,334
Speaker 1: and suicide rates were not New Minister for Indigenous Affairs

23
00:01:26,334 --> 00:01:30,134
Speaker 1: Malandari McCarthy says the figures are deeply troubling, but she's

24
00:01:30,254 --> 00:01:33,494
Speaker 1: determined to work in partnership with First Nations, Australians and

25
00:01:33,574 --> 00:01:37,374
Speaker 1: state and territory governments to bring about positive change. A

26
00:01:37,454 --> 00:01:40,534
Speaker 1: survey of more than one hundred and fifty thousand Australians

27
00:01:40,534 --> 00:01:43,334
Speaker 1: has found two in three Aussie women are struggling to

28
00:01:43,374 --> 00:01:46,694
Speaker 1: afford basic menstrual products, with one in two missing work

29
00:01:46,734 --> 00:01:49,454
Speaker 1: because of it. Share the Dignity, who ran the study

30
00:01:49,494 --> 00:01:52,934
Speaker 1: in partnership with Swinburne University of Technology, has called on

31
00:01:52,934 --> 00:01:56,254
Speaker 1: the government to take period poverty more seriously, the term

32
00:01:56,294 --> 00:01:59,974
Speaker 1: referring to the inability to afford or access period products.

33
00:02:00,254 --> 00:02:03,574
Speaker 1: The survey found some are using teetoels or toad bags

34
00:02:03,614 --> 00:02:06,734
Speaker 1: to try and manage their period. Missed work because of

35
00:02:06,774 --> 00:02:10,254
Speaker 1: this costs Australian businesses and estimated nine points six billion

36
00:02:10,334 --> 00:02:13,854
Speaker 1: dollars every year, Shared The Dignity founder Rochelle Courtenay, saying,

37
00:02:13,894 --> 00:02:16,334
Speaker 1: with one in three respondents saying they misworked due to

38
00:02:16,374 --> 00:02:20,134
Speaker 1: fear of leakage. The solution is simple, she says, businesses

39
00:02:20,214 --> 00:02:24,294
Speaker 1: need to provide free access to period products. Disgraced former

40
00:02:24,374 --> 00:02:28,134
Speaker 1: TV star Andrew O'Keefe is hoping to overturn his convictions

41
00:02:28,134 --> 00:02:32,094
Speaker 1: for domestic violence and drug possession. O'Keefe's lawyers are arguing

42
00:02:32,134 --> 00:02:35,334
Speaker 1: that the magistrate did not give competing versions of events

43
00:02:35,374 --> 00:02:38,294
Speaker 1: proper weight in the decision to convict the former TV

44
00:02:38,454 --> 00:02:41,974
Speaker 1: host of three counts of domestic violence related assault twice

45
00:02:42,014 --> 00:02:45,734
Speaker 1: contravening an apprehended violence order against him, and two charges

46
00:02:45,814 --> 00:02:46,974
Speaker 1: of possessing.

47
00:02:46,534 --> 00:02:47,574
Speaker 4: A prohibited drug.

48
00:02:47,854 --> 00:02:50,254
Speaker 1: He was ordered to serve eighteen months on a community

49
00:02:50,254 --> 00:02:54,534
Speaker 1: corrections order, which involves supervision and reporting requirements, and pay

50
00:02:54,574 --> 00:02:57,734
Speaker 1: an eight hundred dollar fine. O'Keefe maintains that the woman

51
00:02:57,814 --> 00:03:01,054
Speaker 1: involved in these matters was acting aggressively towards him and

52
00:03:01,094 --> 00:03:04,134
Speaker 1: he did not simply assault her. O'Keefe's lawyers says there

53
00:03:04,134 --> 00:03:07,774
Speaker 1: are competing versions of the story to consider. NIF Campbell

54
00:03:07,854 --> 00:03:10,974
Speaker 1: has signed back on to play her iconic screen character

55
00:03:11,054 --> 00:03:14,414
Speaker 1: Sidney Prescott, as the franchise goes back to its roots

56
00:03:14,414 --> 00:03:18,094
Speaker 1: for its seventh installment after more recent sequels focused on

57
00:03:18,134 --> 00:03:21,934
Speaker 1: a younger generation of stalked teens. Campbell told Entertainment Tonight

58
00:03:21,974 --> 00:03:24,254
Speaker 1: that after it was pitched to her that the franchise

59
00:03:24,254 --> 00:03:27,374
Speaker 1: would be back to focusing on Sydney's story, she agreed

60
00:03:27,414 --> 00:03:30,014
Speaker 1: to reprise the role she first made famous in nineteen

61
00:03:30,094 --> 00:03:32,814
Speaker 1: ninety six. Campbell wouldn't be drawn on whether any of

62
00:03:32,814 --> 00:03:36,014
Speaker 1: the other og members of the cast would be returning.

63
00:03:37,694 --> 00:03:38,814
Speaker 4: The Pulse on Paris.

64
00:03:38,894 --> 00:03:41,854
Speaker 3: Thanks to move by Mamma Mia the exercise app he'll

65
00:03:41,854 --> 00:03:43,454
Speaker 3: actually enjoy in Paris.

66
00:03:43,454 --> 00:03:46,014
Speaker 1: And Jess Fox has now got two gold medals to

67
00:03:46,054 --> 00:03:48,814
Speaker 1: her name in these games after clocking the fastest time

68
00:03:48,814 --> 00:03:51,374
Speaker 1: in the Sea one canoe, with some now referring to

69
00:03:51,414 --> 00:03:53,774
Speaker 1: her as the goat in the boat. It was a

70
00:03:53,814 --> 00:03:57,214
Speaker 1: bronze bonanza overnight two, with Penny Smith claiming third spot

71
00:03:57,254 --> 00:04:00,214
Speaker 1: in the women's trap shooting and the Talia Dean grabbing

72
00:04:00,214 --> 00:04:03,494
Speaker 1: bronze in the women's BMX Park final. The Hockey rus

73
00:04:03,614 --> 00:04:06,894
Speaker 1: have smashed the US, defeating them three nil, continuing their

74
00:04:06,974 --> 00:04:09,654
Speaker 1: unbeaten run in the pool stage of the competition, but

75
00:04:09,734 --> 00:04:11,574
Speaker 1: it was another tough night on the pitch for the

76
00:04:11,614 --> 00:04:13,454
Speaker 1: Matilda's Matilla's going down.

77
00:04:13,294 --> 00:04:16,014
Speaker 4: To the US two one. That's what's happening in the

78
00:04:16,014 --> 00:04:16,534
Speaker 4: world today.

79
00:04:16,534 --> 00:04:19,094
Speaker 1: Next, have you ever thought about using the services of

80
00:04:19,174 --> 00:04:21,254
Speaker 1: a life coach, then you need to look out for

81
00:04:21,294 --> 00:04:23,734
Speaker 1: some red flags that could see you end up in

82
00:04:23,814 --> 00:04:38,214
Speaker 1: something akin to a cult. When the BBC started investigating

83
00:04:38,334 --> 00:04:42,214
Speaker 1: Kat Torres, a Brazilian influencer who'd come from humble beginnings

84
00:04:42,454 --> 00:04:44,814
Speaker 1: to have a career as an international model and then

85
00:04:44,894 --> 00:04:48,254
Speaker 1: life coach, they didn't realize how terrified those who were

86
00:04:48,294 --> 00:04:52,294
Speaker 1: involved would be. Telling their stories, they explained how a

87
00:04:52,334 --> 00:04:54,694
Speaker 1: pretty young girl who grew up in a poor neighborhood

88
00:04:54,694 --> 00:04:58,414
Speaker 1: in northern Brazil escaped her situation and her alcoholic father

89
00:04:58,654 --> 00:05:02,094
Speaker 1: by modeling jobs that would eventually see her flown around

90
00:05:02,094 --> 00:05:06,654
Speaker 1: the world. In twenty thirteen, the then twenty four year

91
00:05:06,654 --> 00:05:09,854
Speaker 1: old was linked to actor Leonardo DiCaprio and her docks

92
00:05:09,894 --> 00:05:13,454
Speaker 1: started to rise. She relocated to the US, where she.

93
00:05:13,374 --> 00:05:14,614
Speaker 4: Grew her online following.

94
00:05:15,094 --> 00:05:18,614
Speaker 1: Her feed and stories were full of motivational quotes, advice

95
00:05:18,654 --> 00:05:22,654
Speaker 1: on skincare and how to make money. Her pictures are stunning,

96
00:05:22,814 --> 00:05:26,214
Speaker 1: portraying a life of wealth and beauty. She would post

97
00:05:26,254 --> 00:05:29,134
Speaker 1: from her New York apartment bathroom, the background showing the

98
00:05:29,214 --> 00:05:32,414
Speaker 1: view out to the statue of liberty. She wrote and

99
00:05:32,454 --> 00:05:35,534
Speaker 1: published a self help book based on her life experience,

100
00:05:35,774 --> 00:05:38,094
Speaker 1: which she explained to a talk show host. She wrote

101
00:05:38,174 --> 00:05:40,854
Speaker 1: in a trance that the story came from the voices

102
00:05:40,854 --> 00:05:41,654
Speaker 1: who guided her.

103
00:05:42,254 --> 00:05:43,654
Speaker 4: Her followers who purchased the.

104
00:05:43,574 --> 00:05:46,214
Speaker 1: Book learned more about her rags to riches's story and

105
00:05:46,294 --> 00:05:49,294
Speaker 1: were motivated to be just like her. It was then

106
00:05:49,414 --> 00:05:52,774
Speaker 1: that she began life coaching.

107
00:05:52,894 --> 00:05:54,734
Speaker 4: So get up, get out of your bed.

108
00:05:54,934 --> 00:05:57,854
Speaker 2: Your life and success are waiting for you.

109
00:05:56,894 --> 00:05:59,014
Speaker 1: Your dreams are just.

110
00:05:58,974 --> 00:05:59,734
Speaker 4: Around the corner.

111
00:06:02,214 --> 00:06:06,294
Speaker 1: Despite having no qualifications, Kat Torres began charging for her

112
00:06:06,334 --> 00:06:11,094
Speaker 1: advice on everything from relationships to spiritual in business. Her

113
00:06:11,134 --> 00:06:15,174
Speaker 1: followers loved her and gave testimony after testimony as to

114
00:06:15,214 --> 00:06:19,094
Speaker 1: how Cat's advice had helped them resolve various issues. Many

115
00:06:19,134 --> 00:06:22,534
Speaker 1: of these women saw themselves in Torres. They'd also experienced

116
00:06:22,574 --> 00:06:27,374
Speaker 1: childhood trauma, violent relationships, or had come from low socioeconomic backgrounds.

117
00:06:27,934 --> 00:06:30,334
Speaker 1: They shared their stories with her, and she gave them

118
00:06:30,334 --> 00:06:32,854
Speaker 1: advice on how they too could build a life just

119
00:06:33,054 --> 00:06:36,454
Speaker 1: like hers. But what they didn't realize was that Cat

120
00:06:36,534 --> 00:06:39,574
Speaker 1: Torres wasn't making all her money from her business endeavors.

121
00:06:41,174 --> 00:06:45,134
Speaker 1: Her friends explained how Russian oligarch was paying for her lifestyle,

122
00:06:45,334 --> 00:06:49,654
Speaker 1: her apartment, her designer clothes and handbags. This Russian billionaire

123
00:06:49,774 --> 00:06:52,934
Speaker 1: a friend of President Vladimir Putin's. But while she was

124
00:06:53,054 --> 00:06:55,734
Speaker 1: enjoying the lifestyle this man and others had helped her build.

125
00:06:56,134 --> 00:06:58,494
Speaker 1: When she had to have surgery on her breast, her

126
00:06:58,494 --> 00:07:02,574
Speaker 1: friends say those men abandoned her. She turned to ayahuasca,

127
00:07:02,654 --> 00:07:05,814
Speaker 1: a psychedelic drug, and started to discuss with her followers

128
00:07:06,054 --> 00:07:09,374
Speaker 1: her abilities to converse with her entities, switching from a

129
00:07:09,374 --> 00:07:11,814
Speaker 1: being a god with those who were religious to them

130
00:07:11,814 --> 00:07:15,774
Speaker 1: being voices or precognition with those who weren't. She would

131
00:07:15,814 --> 00:07:17,854
Speaker 1: tell her clients that she would dream about them and

132
00:07:17,894 --> 00:07:20,694
Speaker 1: that it was important they listened to her instructions and

133
00:07:20,814 --> 00:07:23,974
Speaker 1: follow them implicitly, or they would not find the happiness

134
00:07:23,974 --> 00:07:27,414
Speaker 1: they were seeking. She convinced them to break off relationships

135
00:07:27,734 --> 00:07:30,454
Speaker 1: to move across the country to be with her. But

136
00:07:30,534 --> 00:07:32,974
Speaker 1: when one of her clients, Anna agreed and moved to

137
00:07:33,014 --> 00:07:36,014
Speaker 1: New York to cook, clean and take care of Torres's animals,

138
00:07:36,374 --> 00:07:41,254
Speaker 1: she quickly found out something wasn't right. She wasn't allowed

139
00:07:41,294 --> 00:07:44,454
Speaker 1: to sleep unless Torres was out of the apartment. She

140
00:07:44,454 --> 00:07:46,974
Speaker 1: would have to stand with her while she showered, and

141
00:07:47,054 --> 00:07:49,614
Speaker 1: despite being offered two thousand dollars a week in pay,

142
00:07:49,894 --> 00:07:52,654
Speaker 1: Anna says Torres never handed over the money.

143
00:07:53,054 --> 00:07:56,334
Speaker 2: Now I see that she was using me as a sleep.

144
00:07:56,894 --> 00:08:00,734
Speaker 1: This pattern of isolating people would continue. Torres moved to

145
00:08:00,814 --> 00:08:03,894
Speaker 1: Texas and invited some of her most loyal followers.

146
00:08:03,454 --> 00:08:04,734
Speaker 4: To join her witch clan.

147
00:08:05,214 --> 00:08:07,334
Speaker 1: Three of them would make the trip, but not long

148
00:08:07,374 --> 00:08:10,574
Speaker 1: after their arrival, they would be told by Torres's voices

149
00:08:10,614 --> 00:08:13,254
Speaker 1: from above that they needed to work in a strip club.

150
00:08:14,054 --> 00:08:17,094
Speaker 1: They would work eight long days a week. Every dollar

151
00:08:17,134 --> 00:08:20,254
Speaker 1: they made handed straight to Torres. They were told if

152
00:08:20,294 --> 00:08:24,254
Speaker 1: they left their flights, accommodation and the witchcraft she'd done

153
00:08:24,334 --> 00:08:27,814
Speaker 1: to get them this opportunity would be charged back to them.

154
00:08:27,974 --> 00:08:30,254
Speaker 1: They weren't allowed to speak to each other or leave

155
00:08:30,294 --> 00:08:34,654
Speaker 1: their rooms without permission. Kat's young husband also had several guns,

156
00:08:34,934 --> 00:08:38,014
Speaker 1: and with all their idea information in Torres's hands, they

157
00:08:38,014 --> 00:08:42,054
Speaker 1: were terrified to leave or go to the authorities. They

158
00:08:42,054 --> 00:08:45,414
Speaker 1: were then, again, under threat of risking their spiritual future,

159
00:08:45,854 --> 00:08:48,694
Speaker 1: convinced to move into sex work. One of the women,

160
00:08:48,774 --> 00:08:51,094
Speaker 1: who was in the country illegally, was told she'd be

161
00:08:51,094 --> 00:08:54,814
Speaker 1: handed over to the authorities if she complained, Anna, who

162
00:08:54,814 --> 00:08:58,934
Speaker 1: had managed to escape Torres's clutches, was threatened via social media.

163
00:08:59,054 --> 00:09:02,214
Speaker 2: Around April of twenty twenty two, she meet an Instagram

164
00:09:02,254 --> 00:09:05,774
Speaker 2: pulse threatening me. When the pulse, she says that she's

165
00:09:05,814 --> 00:09:08,654
Speaker 2: gonna hang my scall that I was a trader, that

166
00:09:08,774 --> 00:09:11,294
Speaker 2: she had wellcome me in her house, and I betrayed

167
00:09:11,334 --> 00:09:13,214
Speaker 2: her trust and I was going to pay with my

168
00:09:13,334 --> 00:09:15,094
Speaker 2: life for what I had done to her.

169
00:09:15,974 --> 00:09:19,014
Speaker 1: Some of the victims who'd managed to escape went to authorities,

170
00:09:19,134 --> 00:09:20,894
Speaker 1: and the families of some of those who had been

171
00:09:20,934 --> 00:09:25,454
Speaker 1: sucked into Torres's cult reported them missing. Kat Torres fought back,

172
00:09:25,574 --> 00:09:28,374
Speaker 1: convincing the girls who'd been brainwashed and groomed by her

173
00:09:28,694 --> 00:09:32,494
Speaker 1: to post videos asking to be left alone, but detectives

174
00:09:32,534 --> 00:09:35,694
Speaker 1: eventually arrested Torres in the US and deported her back

175
00:09:35,734 --> 00:09:38,694
Speaker 1: to Brazil, where she was sent to prison. More than

176
00:09:38,734 --> 00:09:41,694
Speaker 1: twenty women coming forward with claims of being scammed or

177
00:09:41,734 --> 00:09:44,054
Speaker 1: exploited by the now thirty four year old.

178
00:09:44,014 --> 00:09:47,734
Speaker 3: I believe maybe I'm here for more twenty days, ten

179
00:09:47,814 --> 00:09:50,294
Speaker 3: more days, because there is no proof, so there is

180
00:09:50,334 --> 00:09:51,214
Speaker 3: no crime, There.

181
00:09:51,094 --> 00:09:51,694
Speaker 4: Is no way.

182
00:09:54,894 --> 00:09:57,774
Speaker 1: Rick Allen Ross is the executive director and founder of

183
00:09:57,814 --> 00:10:01,294
Speaker 1: the cult education institute and author of Cults Inside Out.

184
00:10:01,734 --> 00:10:04,534
Speaker 1: Rick has a way which MLMs reached people in twenty

185
00:10:04,534 --> 00:10:07,974
Speaker 1: twenty four changed in recent years. Do you think influences

186
00:10:08,054 --> 00:10:10,294
Speaker 1: are giving them more clout and excit spanning the number

187
00:10:10,334 --> 00:10:12,494
Speaker 1: of people that can bring in well.

188
00:10:12,574 --> 00:10:16,654
Speaker 5: I think it's always relied on friends, recruiting friends or

189
00:10:16,694 --> 00:10:21,454
Speaker 5: family members, someone you know that you trust. And what's

190
00:10:21,494 --> 00:10:26,494
Speaker 5: evolved and changed is the nature of how we communicate

191
00:10:26,534 --> 00:10:29,494
Speaker 5: with each other. Now it is done online, it is

192
00:10:29,614 --> 00:10:35,454
Speaker 5: done through social media. So MLMs have really used social

193
00:10:35,534 --> 00:10:39,454
Speaker 5: media very effectively to recruit distributors.

194
00:10:40,094 --> 00:10:43,814
Speaker 1: What impact have influences had in that space in because

195
00:10:43,854 --> 00:10:46,894
Speaker 1: they are so influential when it comes to selling products,

196
00:10:46,934 --> 00:10:51,494
Speaker 1: have they increased the rate of these MILM companies?

197
00:10:52,334 --> 00:10:56,334
Speaker 5: I think not only influencers, but even people that might

198
00:10:56,414 --> 00:11:00,374
Speaker 5: come under the general label of somehow being a life coach,

199
00:11:01,214 --> 00:11:06,174
Speaker 5: someone who has influence over a person's life, or is

200
00:11:06,374 --> 00:11:10,814
Speaker 5: you know, a trendsetter that people feel is an example

201
00:11:10,854 --> 00:11:13,814
Speaker 5: of success, someone they wish to emulate.

202
00:11:14,334 --> 00:11:17,054
Speaker 1: You mentioned life coaches there that often comes up as

203
00:11:18,054 --> 00:11:22,374
Speaker 1: possibly also being an MLM where people are sort of

204
00:11:22,414 --> 00:11:24,894
Speaker 1: recruited to learn how to become a life coach, and

205
00:11:24,974 --> 00:11:27,294
Speaker 1: then they themselves kind of bring people in to also

206
00:11:27,374 --> 00:11:29,374
Speaker 1: learn how to be life coaches. Would you class a

207
00:11:29,374 --> 00:11:34,054
Speaker 1: lot of these life coaching courses as actually just MLMs, Well.

208
00:11:33,854 --> 00:11:37,894
Speaker 5: It depends on how it's structured. If there is a

209
00:11:38,134 --> 00:11:43,934
Speaker 5: multi level system in which one person who becomes involved

210
00:11:43,934 --> 00:11:47,614
Speaker 5: in life coaching is giving a percentage of the money

211
00:11:47,694 --> 00:11:51,174
Speaker 5: they make from people they recruit and passing it upline,

212
00:11:51,814 --> 00:11:53,774
Speaker 5: then it becomes an MLM.

213
00:11:54,534 --> 00:11:56,894
Speaker 1: How does that then differ from a pyramid scheme? Because

214
00:11:56,894 --> 00:11:59,614
Speaker 1: the reason it got around the legalities was that people

215
00:11:59,654 --> 00:12:04,174
Speaker 1: could still sell a product directly to someone else. Does

216
00:12:04,214 --> 00:12:07,854
Speaker 1: a life coaching get around that by providing life coaching?

217
00:12:07,974 --> 00:12:08,894
Speaker 4: I guess as the.

218
00:12:08,854 --> 00:12:14,254
Speaker 5: Product Exactly a pyramid scheme would be I tell you

219
00:12:14,374 --> 00:12:19,014
Speaker 5: I have an investment. You invest in my company. I

220
00:12:19,214 --> 00:12:23,974
Speaker 5: promise you returns, but I actually am paying you out

221
00:12:23,974 --> 00:12:27,214
Speaker 5: of the money that others invest And so people that

222
00:12:27,334 --> 00:12:30,654
Speaker 5: get in early on may make some money and people

223
00:12:30,654 --> 00:12:34,174
Speaker 5: that get in late will lose money. This is what

224
00:12:34,294 --> 00:12:39,414
Speaker 5: Bernie Madoff did with his Hansi or pyramid scheme. How

225
00:12:39,574 --> 00:12:43,294
Speaker 5: MLMs get around it is they have a product, and

226
00:12:43,374 --> 00:12:47,134
Speaker 5: because they have a product, whether it's life coaching or

227
00:12:47,174 --> 00:12:52,934
Speaker 5: shampoo or skincare or coffee. They are selling something and

228
00:12:52,974 --> 00:12:56,494
Speaker 5: therefore that justifies the multi level marketing scheme.

229
00:12:57,214 --> 00:13:00,614
Speaker 1: I think what people find most difficult is that there

230
00:13:00,654 --> 00:13:03,134
Speaker 1: does seem to be people who do seem to be

231
00:13:03,214 --> 00:13:07,654
Speaker 1: making money out of these multi level marketing businesses. Are

232
00:13:07,654 --> 00:13:10,494
Speaker 1: there any that are actually afootable for people?

233
00:13:11,094 --> 00:13:14,454
Speaker 5: Well, it's conceivable that it can be quite profitable if

234
00:13:14,494 --> 00:13:17,534
Speaker 5: you are one of the early birds that gets in

235
00:13:18,134 --> 00:13:22,534
Speaker 5: at the very beginning, But as it builds out, it's

236
00:13:22,574 --> 00:13:25,774
Speaker 5: the people at the bottom of the multi level scheme

237
00:13:26,254 --> 00:13:29,494
Speaker 5: that are paying up to make these few people at

238
00:13:29,534 --> 00:13:33,934
Speaker 5: the top rich. And it's all about recruitment, it's not

239
00:13:34,094 --> 00:13:37,854
Speaker 5: about the product. One of the giveaways that you can

240
00:13:37,934 --> 00:13:42,414
Speaker 5: tell that an MLM is just a scam is that

241
00:13:42,614 --> 00:13:47,454
Speaker 5: people are more focused on you recruiting more distributors than

242
00:13:47,494 --> 00:13:51,134
Speaker 5: they are really in the product. And most people will

243
00:13:51,174 --> 00:13:54,814
Speaker 5: lose money in an MLM or make very little money.

244
00:13:55,174 --> 00:13:58,214
Speaker 5: I'll often tell people, look, why don't you count the

245
00:13:58,294 --> 00:14:01,734
Speaker 5: hours that you're putting into this multi level marketing scheme

246
00:14:02,334 --> 00:14:06,294
Speaker 5: and then take the actual net profit that you're making

247
00:14:06,694 --> 00:14:10,214
Speaker 5: and divide your hours into that and f hear out

248
00:14:10,294 --> 00:14:14,214
Speaker 5: exactly what you're being paid an hour. In most cases,

249
00:14:14,294 --> 00:14:18,534
Speaker 5: they would be better off working for McDonald's or walmart Rick.

250
00:14:18,614 --> 00:14:21,374
Speaker 1: Why do people keep signing up for this stuff? I mean,

251
00:14:21,814 --> 00:14:25,094
Speaker 1: it's not that we aren't educated about these existing anymore.

252
00:14:25,254 --> 00:14:28,014
Speaker 1: You know, comedians make jokes about them. We're all very

253
00:14:28,054 --> 00:14:31,214
Speaker 1: aware of that whole Oh my mate from high school

254
00:14:31,254 --> 00:14:33,494
Speaker 1: reached out on Facebook and asked me if I wanted

255
00:14:33,494 --> 00:14:35,814
Speaker 1: to start earning a passive income, Like, we're all very

256
00:14:35,814 --> 00:14:36,374
Speaker 1: aware of them.

257
00:14:36,414 --> 00:14:37,894
Speaker 4: But why do people keep signing up?

258
00:14:38,614 --> 00:14:42,134
Speaker 5: Well, because they're selling a dream. That's what they're really

259
00:14:42,294 --> 00:14:48,174
Speaker 5: truly selling. And they're using identifiable techniques of influence and

260
00:14:48,254 --> 00:14:52,574
Speaker 5: at times coercive persuasion to take advantage of people, to

261
00:14:52,654 --> 00:14:56,454
Speaker 5: exploit people. So they'll have someone standing on a stage

262
00:14:56,814 --> 00:15:01,694
Speaker 5: or doing a presentation online and they will say, look,

263
00:15:01,934 --> 00:15:05,614
Speaker 5: my life's a dream. This is my new car, this

264
00:15:05,814 --> 00:15:09,094
Speaker 5: is my new house. I'm living the dream.

265
00:15:09,614 --> 00:15:12,374
Speaker 6: It has been, I guess, a sanctuary of people just

266
00:15:12,374 --> 00:15:15,734
Speaker 6: like you and I to think outside the books and

267
00:15:16,014 --> 00:15:18,054
Speaker 6: actually moving to the online space and part with a

268
00:15:18,094 --> 00:15:21,374
Speaker 6: high profital buff that allows us to create so much

269
00:15:21,414 --> 00:15:24,134
Speaker 6: more in our life, to start creating ten thousand almoths

270
00:15:24,174 --> 00:15:27,814
Speaker 6: one hundred thousand almost in saying, as to this amazing opportunity,

271
00:15:27,894 --> 00:15:29,494
Speaker 6: I've been able to achieve so.

272
00:15:29,574 --> 00:15:32,894
Speaker 5: Much, and you can live the dream too, if you

273
00:15:33,054 --> 00:15:37,294
Speaker 5: work hard enough. And that's the big lie, is that

274
00:15:37,574 --> 00:15:40,334
Speaker 5: if you work hard enough, you can attain the dream.

275
00:15:40,774 --> 00:15:43,894
Speaker 5: Because there are people in MLMs right now who are

276
00:15:43,934 --> 00:15:47,254
Speaker 5: working the most they possibly can. They're giving it, they're

277
00:15:47,374 --> 00:15:52,574
Speaker 5: all and it may be damaging their family relationships, it

278
00:15:52,774 --> 00:15:55,934
Speaker 5: can be costing them so much money that their charge

279
00:15:55,974 --> 00:15:59,814
Speaker 5: cards are getting maxed out or whatever, but they believe

280
00:16:00,054 --> 00:16:02,414
Speaker 5: in the dream and they believe if they work hard

281
00:16:02,534 --> 00:16:06,254
Speaker 5: enough and stick to it, somehow it's going to work out.

282
00:16:06,574 --> 00:16:09,414
Speaker 5: And of course the MLM is telling them that the

283
00:16:09,654 --> 00:16:13,934
Speaker 5: business plan is perfect and that there is no legitimate

284
00:16:14,014 --> 00:16:18,214
Speaker 5: reason to fail. Failure is on you, it's never on

285
00:16:18,254 --> 00:16:18,894
Speaker 5: the company.

286
00:16:19,614 --> 00:16:22,414
Speaker 1: What impact has the cost of living crisis had on

287
00:16:22,694 --> 00:16:24,894
Speaker 1: MLM uptake you think? Do you think more people who

288
00:16:24,934 --> 00:16:27,494
Speaker 1: are kind of seeking out those second jobs or those

289
00:16:27,854 --> 00:16:31,334
Speaker 1: side hustles might be falling for this just to try

290
00:16:31,374 --> 00:16:34,294
Speaker 1: and make ends made in a time where everyone is struggling.

291
00:16:35,054 --> 00:16:38,654
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the sad part of MLMs is that people

292
00:16:38,694 --> 00:16:42,094
Speaker 5: who are really trying to make ends meet and who

293
00:16:42,174 --> 00:16:46,534
Speaker 5: are at times struggling get into an MLM thinking this

294
00:16:46,574 --> 00:16:49,814
Speaker 5: is a way to bring in extra income, when it

295
00:16:49,974 --> 00:16:55,134
Speaker 5: ends up typically being a loss. I've done interventions actually

296
00:16:55,214 --> 00:16:58,334
Speaker 5: to get people out of MLMs, and I write about

297
00:16:58,374 --> 00:17:01,134
Speaker 5: it in my book called Inside Out. There's a chapter

298
00:17:01,694 --> 00:17:05,414
Speaker 5: devoted to getting a young man out of Amway. And

299
00:17:05,614 --> 00:17:08,374
Speaker 5: this was a young man who was a business major

300
00:17:08,454 --> 00:17:12,934
Speaker 5: at a major and his father was an accountant with

301
00:17:13,054 --> 00:17:16,654
Speaker 5: an MBA. This was a family that knew business and

302
00:17:16,734 --> 00:17:20,454
Speaker 5: the father couldn't understand why the son was caught up

303
00:17:20,454 --> 00:17:23,774
Speaker 5: in it. And I would say, in my opinion that

304
00:17:23,854 --> 00:17:28,774
Speaker 5: he was under undue influence. He'd become socially isolated within

305
00:17:28,814 --> 00:17:34,334
Speaker 5: the subculture of Amway, and he wasn't really getting accurate feedback,

306
00:17:34,734 --> 00:17:40,654
Speaker 5: and he was being influenced by pure pressure and pure reinforcement. Finally,

307
00:17:40,774 --> 00:17:43,534
Speaker 5: we did get him out and he moved on with

308
00:17:43,614 --> 00:17:46,254
Speaker 5: his life, but he nearly flunked out of college.

309
00:17:46,774 --> 00:17:52,534
Speaker 1: Rick, would you align multi level marketing companies the tactics

310
00:17:52,534 --> 00:17:57,494
Speaker 1: that they use with say, coercive control in a domestic

311
00:17:57,574 --> 00:18:02,734
Speaker 1: violence relationship and cult leaders. Is that all sort of

312
00:18:02,854 --> 00:18:04,094
Speaker 1: coming from the same place.

313
00:18:04,854 --> 00:18:09,894
Speaker 5: The coercive persuasion and influence techniques are typically used by

314
00:18:10,414 --> 00:18:16,174
Speaker 5: high control groups, narcissistic partners, and abuse of controlling relationships,

315
00:18:16,494 --> 00:18:20,254
Speaker 5: and they're also used in MLMs. And that's the cult

316
00:18:20,454 --> 00:18:26,174
Speaker 5: like aspect of MLMs. People become socially isolated. People may

317
00:18:26,734 --> 00:18:31,254
Speaker 5: see their upline as a kind of iconic figure that

318
00:18:31,334 --> 00:18:34,934
Speaker 5: they almost worship. Keep in mind that Keith R. Nieri,

319
00:18:35,614 --> 00:18:39,294
Speaker 5: notorious cult leader of Nexium, the sex cult in the

320
00:18:39,414 --> 00:18:43,014
Speaker 5: United States. I testified against him in criminal court. He's

321
00:18:43,094 --> 00:18:47,694
Speaker 5: now serving over one hundred year sentence for fraud sex trafficking.

322
00:18:48,174 --> 00:18:52,214
Speaker 5: He was initially an MLM business owner. He had something

323
00:18:52,254 --> 00:18:56,734
Speaker 5: called Consumer Byline, and before that he was an Amway distributor.

324
00:18:57,094 --> 00:19:01,854
Speaker 5: And he incorporated multi level marketing schemes into his Nexium

325
00:19:02,214 --> 00:19:07,254
Speaker 5: course curriculum and program structure. And he had a multi

326
00:19:07,334 --> 00:19:12,334
Speaker 5: level system of selling the training two coaches, you were

327
00:19:12,374 --> 00:19:15,494
Speaker 5: assigned a coach and so on, and there was a

328
00:19:15,534 --> 00:19:18,934
Speaker 5: pyramid scheme of authority with him at the top. So

329
00:19:19,654 --> 00:19:24,494
Speaker 5: MLMs and cults at times can seem similar in the

330
00:19:24,694 --> 00:19:29,814
Speaker 5: sense that they used very similar coercive persuasion tactics.

331
00:19:33,294 --> 00:19:36,254
Speaker 1: Kat Torres was sentenced to eight years for human trafficking

332
00:19:36,334 --> 00:19:39,054
Speaker 1: and slavery, the judge ruling that even on her release,

333
00:19:39,134 --> 00:19:42,174
Speaker 1: she's not allowed to access the Internet, but her victims

334
00:19:42,214 --> 00:19:44,854
Speaker 1: fear that that's something they cannot control, and she'll be

335
00:19:44,894 --> 00:19:46,894
Speaker 1: back at it as soon as she's free.

336
00:19:47,174 --> 00:19:50,334
Speaker 3: I never ever was wrong. I don't I don't regret

337
00:19:50,494 --> 00:19:53,414
Speaker 3: one single word I said. I don't regret.

338
00:19:54,094 --> 00:19:56,854
Speaker 1: If you want to watch the BBC documentary like follow

339
00:19:56,934 --> 00:19:59,534
Speaker 1: Trafficked Instace Fake Guru, you can find a link to

340
00:19:59,574 --> 00:20:04,414
Speaker 1: it in our show notes. Thanks for taking some time

341
00:20:04,454 --> 00:20:06,654
Speaker 1: to feed your mind with us today. The Quikie is

342
00:20:06,734 --> 00:20:10,214
Speaker 1: produced by me Claire Murphy and our senior producer Taylorstrano,

343
00:20:10,334 --> 00:20:12,214
Speaker 1: with audio production by Tom Lyone.