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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hey out ladders, It's Mia,

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Speaker 2: and I've got a little treat for you because I

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Speaker 2: have an interview that I wanted to share that I

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Speaker 2: did on No Filter a little while ago. We talk

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Speaker 2: on out Loud a lot about cancel culture, and I

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Speaker 2: know a lot of you are interested in that whole

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Speaker 2: idea and the idea of wokeness. And I interviewed a

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Speaker 2: woman called Africa Brooke who wrote a viral open letter

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Speaker 2: a couple of years ago called why I'm Leaving the

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Speaker 2: Cult of Wokeness, and the letter changed her life, except

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Speaker 2: not in the way that she expected it to. So

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Speaker 2: I sat down with Africa recently to have a conversation

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Speaker 2: about wokeness and about internet culture and cancel culture and

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Speaker 2: the pressures and expectations that come with living in the

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Speaker 2: age of intolerance, and we thought that it was really

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Speaker 2: a good time to share it because there is so

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Speaker 2: much noise online at the moment, and it can feel

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Speaker 2: so hectic and so much pressure to post things and

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Speaker 2: have certain opinions. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this conversation,

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Speaker 2: and if you want to listen to more now filter,

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Speaker 2: you know where to find it.

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Speaker 3: So the risk that I was taking was will I

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Speaker 3: be betraying the black community? Will I be betraying women?

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Speaker 3: Will I be betraying other left leaning people? Am I

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Speaker 3: betraying my audience and friends and people that think they

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Speaker 3: know me and my partner and whatever else? But also

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Speaker 3: I was at such a point of the rage, if

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Speaker 3: you will, because suddenly I couldn't unsee how many people

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Speaker 3: were monetizing from people's shame.

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Speaker 1: And the truth is.

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Speaker 3: I was not afraid of cancelation. I was not afraid

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Speaker 3: of the exile.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to no Filter from Mma Maya. I'm me afraidman,

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Speaker 2: and I am afraid of being canceled every day in

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Speaker 2: every way. But as you just heard, my guest today

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Speaker 2: is not afraid, not anymore. Because in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: writer and activist Africa Brook wrote an open letter and

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Speaker 2: posted it online. She called it why I'm Leaving the

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Speaker 2: Cult of Wokeness, and it immediately went viral. She was

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Speaker 2: twenty nine years old at the time, and that open

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Speaker 2: letter changed her life, but not in the way she

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Speaker 2: expected it to. So what did she write in a

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Speaker 2: letter and how did she become unafraid and also why

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Speaker 2: she canceled. Africa believes that we are living right now

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Speaker 2: in the age of intolerance. Hard agree. And she also

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Speaker 2: believes that what the culture was demand of us is

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Speaker 2: to pick aside and post loudly and incessantly about it

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Speaker 2: on social media. And so for a long time, that's

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Speaker 2: what she did until suddenly one day it made her

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Speaker 2: feel sick. You're about to hear what happened that day,

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Speaker 2: but before you learn what made her quit the so

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Speaker 2: called cult of war weakness, you need to know how

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Speaker 2: and why she joined in the first place. Africa's story

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Speaker 2: actually begins back in twenty sixteen when she had a

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Speaker 2: severe drinking problem. So I started by asking her how

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Speaker 2: her alcohol addiction turned her into an activist.

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Speaker 3: I was twenty four years old and I was trying

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Speaker 3: to get sober. But I was struggling, struggling to let

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Speaker 3: go of alcohol, and it.

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Speaker 1: Was pretty bad.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't sort of like a oh I take it

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Speaker 3: a little bit too far. Sometimes it was alcoholism. So

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Speaker 3: I was a blank out drinker, a bench drinker, very specifically,

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Speaker 3: which I think the British and Australians understand that very

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Speaker 3: well and know exactly what that is because it's embedded

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Speaker 3: in our culture. I have always been a writer. I've

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Speaker 3: always been in the creative world. So when I realized

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Speaker 3: that this problem wasn't going to be going anywhere anytime soon,

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Speaker 3: I started sharing online. I had relapsed seven times before that,

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Speaker 3: and I really knew that if I don't find a

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Speaker 3: way to get sober, I am going to be dead

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Speaker 3: before I turned twenty five years old. So I started

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Speaker 3: an Instagram account, which was anonymous at the time, still

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Speaker 3: the same one that I have today, and I started

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Speaker 3: sharing sharing as a way to keep myself sober, sharing

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Speaker 3: as a way to see if my cries for help

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Speaker 3: would land with anyone out there. There was no plan

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Speaker 3: to build any sort of platform in the way that

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Speaker 3: I do now. None of that was part of the plan.

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Speaker 3: I just needed to get well and I had no

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Speaker 3: other space to do it offline.

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Speaker 1: That was it.

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Speaker 3: And then what happened is that my story got picked

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Speaker 3: up pretty quickly by the UK media because of my age,

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Speaker 3: because of the way that I spoke about it, but

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Speaker 3: also it was just a sort of compelling story as well,

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Speaker 3: and I was immediately. When I say immediately, I mean

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Speaker 3: maybe six to eight months in I was labeled as

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Speaker 3: a sobriety advocate. And the thing is, when you become

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Speaker 3: labeled as an advocate, you are also then labeled as

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Speaker 3: an activist, you know. So that's an important piece of

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Speaker 3: the story for me. Pretty early on into my recovery,

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Speaker 3: me just sharing about recovery and my findings and you know,

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Speaker 3: speaking in the way that I do now, but just

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Speaker 3: in a very different way. It was very recovery specific

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Speaker 3: at the time. I then became labeled an activist. And

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Speaker 3: once you get labeled an activist, you're not only expected

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Speaker 3: to speak about the specific thing you talk about. Now

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Speaker 3: you have to activate for everything else. So now I

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Speaker 3: can't just speak about recovery. I have to speak about

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Speaker 3: recovery through the lens of being a black woman. And

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Speaker 3: then after I do that, I have to speak about

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Speaker 3: recovery through the lens of a black immigrant woman, and

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Speaker 3: then so on and so on and so on. Right,

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Speaker 3: But then it doesn't just stop with me. I have

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Speaker 3: to start advocating for other people.

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Speaker 1: And to be honest, I.

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Speaker 3: Actually, how do I put this, not even just on

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Speaker 3: a credibility level, if I'm to be completely honest, I

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Speaker 3: think on an egoic level, it felt quite good for

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Speaker 3: people to think that I am someone that is worthy

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Speaker 3: of taking up all of these causes. So I never

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Speaker 3: really questioned it, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's like, not all heroes wear capes. Some of them

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Speaker 2: have a social media account, yeah, some of some of

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Speaker 2: them post on.

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Speaker 3: Insta, they do, some of them make infographics, you know.

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Speaker 3: So I think that part of the story is quite

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Speaker 3: important because then twenty sixteen, especially with everything that happened

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Speaker 3: in the US with Trump being elected, and then I

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Speaker 3: would say that for me and actually most people that

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Speaker 3: I speak to you, that's when we started to notice

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Speaker 3: the sort of just how much our most intimate lives

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Speaker 3: were being politicized. I don't remember before then people looking

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Speaker 3: at every fucking thing through the lens of politics.

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Speaker 1: I just don't, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, I started

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Speaker 3: to go sort of deeper into social justice spaces, but

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Speaker 3: I truly believed I still had my autonomy. I didn't

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Speaker 3: believe that I was a social justice warrior or anything

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Speaker 3: like that, but I supported anyone that was doing anything

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Speaker 3: under social just because it's still a value that I

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Speaker 3: hold closely to this day. It just looks very different

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Speaker 3: to what I thought it needed to look like. And

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Speaker 3: I realized that even though I was a very confident,

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Speaker 3: outspoken person and I'd been speaking publicly around very challenging

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Speaker 3: things for a time, I just thought I'd feel very

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Speaker 3: afraid in my own mind first to begin with.

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Speaker 1: And I can realize it now more in.

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Speaker 3: Retrospect, but I recognize what that feeling was. Where I

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Speaker 3: felt that I couldn't ask questions was the first one,

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Speaker 3: or that I couldn't point out any contradictions that would

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Speaker 3: kind of poke holes in whatever the mission was, whether

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Speaker 3: it was to do with race or gender, or sex

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Speaker 3: or identity, anything that didn't quite make sense to me.

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Speaker 3: I felt as if I just needed to keep it

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Speaker 3: to myself. You know, that I'm not allowed to talk

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Speaker 3: about it because if I talk about it or ask

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Speaker 3: the questions, I might seem as if, how do I

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Speaker 3: put it, it felt like a betrayal. To put it

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Speaker 3: very simply, it's not a logical thing. It just felt

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Speaker 3: like I'm betraying black people if I ask these questions

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Speaker 3: or point out these contradictions, or I'm betraying women if

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Speaker 3: I say, actually, I don't think we should live in

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Speaker 3: such a fearful way, or to believe that all men

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Speaker 3: are just so many things that I just thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: but how is this applicable? Is it applicable to every

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Speaker 3: single situation? Just any critical thinking was sort of not

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Speaker 3: allowed by myself but also by the environment around me.

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Speaker 1: That was just the reality of it.

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Speaker 3: So this suppression of my voice and my inner thoughts especially,

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Speaker 3: it just started to come to a head around twenty

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Speaker 3: nineteen because I felt that I wasn't being in complete

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Speaker 3: integrity with my work. My work is about understanding self sabotage.

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Speaker 3: My work has always been around self expression and taking

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Speaker 3: emotional conversational risks. It's always been about having the conversations

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Speaker 3: that no one wants to have. But I realized that

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Speaker 3: there was an ever growing less of things that I

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Speaker 3: was not allowed to say, you know.

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Speaker 2: Because it didn't go with the correct opinion on that

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Speaker 2: topic according to activists. Absolutely yeah, right, So like if

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Speaker 2: you questioned the idea that say all men a rapists

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Speaker 2: and you said, well, hang on, not all men.

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Speaker 1: Right, or if say you believed.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if this is something you believe or not.

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Speaker 2: But if you believed in abortion but didn't feel comfortable

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Speaker 2: with late term abortions for non medical reasons, for example,

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Speaker 2: but you couldn't say those things publicly because the activists

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Speaker 2: on those issues insisted you or irether with them, or

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Speaker 2: you were an enemy and you had to choose. There

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Speaker 2: was no room for nuance.

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Speaker 1: There you go, there you go, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: And I think that was in the defense of men

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Speaker 3: without taking the nuance of Well, when we talk about men,

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Speaker 3: were also talking about boys, So how is it for

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Speaker 3: boys to be hearing us speaking of that? There was

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Speaker 3: just you can't, you can't. It just is what it is.

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Speaker 3: So for me, all of that over the course of

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Speaker 3: two to three is felt like a huge integrity breach massively.

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Speaker 3: I just couldn't keep up with it anymore internally for myself.

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Speaker 3: And by the time twenty twenty comes around and George

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Speaker 3: Floyd is murdered in the States, like anyone else, I

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Speaker 3: was absolutely horrified. I felt just a level of sickness

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Speaker 3: I've never felt before around the situation like that, And

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of it is to do with

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Speaker 3: the fact that we were all online and we will

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Speaker 3: never experience well, I hope we'll never experience anything like

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Speaker 3: that again. But it was just a very different times. Psychologically,

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Speaker 3: we were all very different. But there was something about

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Speaker 3: that specific case and the way that it sort of

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Speaker 3: just exploded all over the world, and how regardless of

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Speaker 3: where you were in the world, you were supposed to

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Speaker 3: behave and speak and respond to it in a very

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Speaker 3: specific way, very specific way. I even write about it

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Speaker 3: in the book and I say that even if you

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Speaker 3: were a shepherd in rural Guero, which is Zimbabwe, you

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Speaker 3: were expected to speak about this and to post the

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Speaker 3: square and to atone for your sins if you happen

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Speaker 3: to be white. For me, in the beginning, I felt

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Speaker 3: that sort of, I'm black, I'm supposed to respond to

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Speaker 3: this immediately. I'm supposed to call other white people in,

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Speaker 3: you know, this idea, which I think is so self righteous,

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Speaker 3: you know that I have to call people in, you know,

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Speaker 3: But that's what it was.

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Speaker 1: That's what I felt like.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain the difference between calling someone out and

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Speaker 2: calling someone in and how those two things have sort

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Speaker 2: of seen differently.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I personally don't think there's any difference,

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Speaker 3: but the idea of calling someone out. For example, is

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Speaker 3: that you notice a problematic action or some kind of wrongdoing,

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Speaker 3: then you have a duty to name whatever the harm

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Speaker 3: that's been done, and you have a duty to use

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Speaker 3: pretty much any means necessary from let's say, extreme physical

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Speaker 3: violence to shame the other person and to make them

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Speaker 3: see what they have done so that they decide that

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Speaker 3: they will take accountability for whatever.

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Speaker 1: The harm is.

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Speaker 3: And the idea is that calling someone in is supposed

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Speaker 3: to be you might notice, even in the way that

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Speaker 3: I said it, it's supposed to be a more gentle

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Speaker 3: approach of highlighting the harm that someone might have done.

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Speaker 1: But you're approaching.

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Speaker 3: It like a good faith They're supposed to be a

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Speaker 3: good faith approach around it, right. You're not supposed to

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Speaker 3: assume that the other person did this maliciously and consciously.

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Speaker 3: You're supposed to assume that maybe they just didn't realize

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Speaker 3: what they were doing. So yeah, call them in, And

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Speaker 3: you're supposed to do it privately before you do it publicly,

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Speaker 3: and if the person doesn't want to respond privately, then

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Speaker 3: your hand has been forced, and then you can do

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Speaker 3: it publicly. But even publicly it's supposed to be a

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Speaker 3: little bit more gentle. But the reason why I say

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's any difference because I don't think

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Speaker 3: I've ever seen it executed in that way. Really, I

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Speaker 3: just haven't seen that.

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Speaker 2: And is that something that you did. Would you call

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Speaker 2: people out and call them in and try to shame them.

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Speaker 3: No, I never did anything like that. I never called

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Speaker 3: anyone out or tried to call anyone in. I think

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Speaker 3: I was just sort of sitting on the sidelines co

254
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Speaker 3: signing that behavior. But I think I was co signing

255
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Speaker 3: that behavior out of fear because if I have empathy

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Speaker 3: for that person, then am I on the side of

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Speaker 3: the harm doer?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: That's the sort of sinister way all of these things

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Speaker 3: work because it starts to act as almost cancelation by proximity.

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Speaker 3: If I defend this person, I might get canceled too,

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Speaker 3: so I just have to let it happen. So twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty was very similar. In the beginning, I also was

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Speaker 3: overwhelmed with emotion because a black man has been killed

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Speaker 3: by the hands of the police. So it's a very

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Speaker 3: specific Again, there's a truth, but there's a way that

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Speaker 3: the truth is being put forward. That means that you

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Speaker 3: all have to be in a state of fear. It's

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Speaker 3: kind of like as if black people are being lynched

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Speaker 3: type of thing, without any any need to know what

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Speaker 3: the details of it was, because if you're curious about

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Speaker 3: what the details are, that means you are siding with

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Speaker 3: whatever the thing is. So in the beginning I pretty

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Speaker 3: much joined the cause. I was horrified. I then was

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Speaker 3: doing callouts, but not even specific people. It was mainly

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Speaker 3: saying you need to be speaking up about this. It

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Speaker 3: was a very silence is violence energy, That's how I

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Speaker 3: would put it. It was very silence is violence. If

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Speaker 3: you are not speaking out about this, then you are

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Speaker 3: on the wrong side of history. Blah blah blah blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah, all the scripts that you can expect.

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Speaker 1: Then I was.

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Speaker 3: Applauded very loudly for it, very very loudly. It was like,

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Speaker 3: how do I how do I put this? It was

285
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Speaker 3: like you get a sort of rush off for adrenaline

286
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Speaker 3: because it's also happening in an environment that is so abnormal.

287
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Speaker 3: It's not actually normal for you to put out a

288
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Speaker 3: thought and immediately it's co signed by thousands and thousands

289
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Speaker 3: of people telling you that you've done a good job.

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Speaker 3: The same thing can never happen offline.

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Speaker 1: It just can't.

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Speaker 2: It would be like getting a standing ovation, like going

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Speaker 2: out into the street and saying something and having everyone

294
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Speaker 2: just stop what they're doing and just turn to you

295
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Speaker 2: and applaud.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly what it was, And I could see

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Speaker 3: just how easy it is to get drunk on that

298
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Speaker 3: level of validation and affirmation. But again, I use the

299
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Speaker 3: language of integrity breach, and that's very specific language that

300
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Speaker 3: I use for myself because my sobriety forced me to

301
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Speaker 3: really think deeply about what my values actually are, to

302
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Speaker 3: think about the kind of person that I am, So

303
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Speaker 3: it's very easy for me to notice when I'm operating

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Speaker 3: completely out of integrity. So that in that moment, I

305
00:16:03,767 --> 00:16:06,167
Speaker 3: think it was about a couple of hours or something

306
00:16:06,207 --> 00:16:08,807
Speaker 3: like that, all of this was happening in so I

307
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Speaker 3: did sort of lean into the silence as violence energy

308
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Speaker 3: for a prolonged amount of time. But for me, it

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Speaker 3: was long enough because I had never really participated in

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Speaker 3: anything like that before, so it was very sort of

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Speaker 3: shocking to the system to see myself behave in this way.

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Speaker 2: And there was a particular twenty four hour period during

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Speaker 2: that time in twenty twenty, when Black Lives Matter content

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Speaker 2: completely dominated social media and where it seemed like the

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Speaker 2: whole world was posting a black square in solidarity with

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Speaker 2: the BLM movement, and also because people were scared of

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Speaker 2: being canceled if they didn't post one, and then the

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Speaker 2: active has canceled everyone anyway, because the black squares were

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Speaker 2: apparently flooding feeds, and they said that it was preventing

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Speaker 2: people from getting information from black creators about the movement Africa.

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Speaker 2: Did you post the black Square?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't.

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Speaker 3: I was very close to posting the black square because

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Speaker 3: even I, as a black person, felt pressure to post it,

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Speaker 3: because again, I really want to make it clear that

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00:17:10,407 --> 00:17:12,767
Speaker 3: there's so much nuance in what we're speaking about. So

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Speaker 3: many conversations that were happening at the time were really necessary,

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Speaker 3: and I think they have really transformed the way people

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Speaker 3: understand race in a useful way. However, it then started

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Speaker 3: to go to an extreme, to an extreme that I

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Speaker 3: believe had this sort of religious undertone to it, the

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Speaker 3: idea that if you are a white person, then you

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Speaker 3: are pretty much born with original sin, that is white supremacy,

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Speaker 3: so you have to spend the rest of your life

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00:17:37,327 --> 00:17:41,367
Speaker 3: atoning for it through an anti racism course. You might

337
00:17:41,447 --> 00:17:44,647
Speaker 3: notice that also in that year, all books to do

338
00:17:44,767 --> 00:17:50,487
Speaker 3: with anti racism absolutely exploded, exploded, They did.

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Speaker 1: So so well. Other people got book.

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Speaker 3: Deals because of that, because they did something that went viral.

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Speaker 3: So to me, there is an anti racism industrial complex.

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Speaker 3: But that's a completely different conversation. But this is just

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Speaker 3: the thing that I started to notice. But I had

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Speaker 3: more questions because I started to think, well, how is

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Speaker 3: a let's say, a young black girl who was adopted

346
00:18:14,367 --> 00:18:18,527
Speaker 3: by white parents supposed to feel about everything that we're

347
00:18:18,527 --> 00:18:22,847
Speaker 3: saying right now? Is she supposed to start questioning her parents?

348
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Speaker 3: Like I just didn't understand how a lot of what

349
00:18:26,607 --> 00:18:29,527
Speaker 3: was being said is applicable into real life and the

350
00:18:29,607 --> 00:18:33,607
Speaker 3: damage that it actually causes when we start interrogating every

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Speaker 3: white person we've ever interacted with to see if any

352
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Speaker 3: of maybe the conflicts that we had or disagreements were

353
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Speaker 3: because of some kind of racial intent. There were things

354
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Speaker 3: that I just didn't feel comfortable with over time, so

355
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Speaker 3: I didn't post the Black Square because also I didn't

356
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Speaker 3: understand the origin of it. I was hearing that it

357
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Speaker 3: had come from the music industry, and it was specifically

358
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Speaker 3: for musicians, but then also so many Black squares, it's

359
00:18:59,487 --> 00:19:02,527
Speaker 3: actually blocking out the information for people to meet up

360
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Speaker 3: and organize. So again, logically it just didn't make sense.

361
00:19:06,967 --> 00:19:10,407
Speaker 3: But I did keep the mob away, if you will,

362
00:19:10,927 --> 00:19:14,287
Speaker 3: by calling people out in a different way. So, if

363
00:19:14,327 --> 00:19:16,527
Speaker 3: I'm to be honest, it's as if I found another

364
00:19:16,607 --> 00:19:18,287
Speaker 3: way to be like, Okay, I'm not going to do

365
00:19:18,367 --> 00:19:21,127
Speaker 3: that thing, but I'll do this instead. I'll use my

366
00:19:21,207 --> 00:19:22,927
Speaker 3: platform to call everyone else out.

367
00:19:23,167 --> 00:19:24,047
Speaker 1: So that's what I did.

368
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Speaker 2: There was a man that slid into your DMS to

369
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Speaker 2: question quite politely, I believe, what did he say to you?

370
00:19:33,607 --> 00:19:34,967
Speaker 2: And what did you do in response?

371
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Speaker 3: So this is when I was choosing my plan B

372
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Speaker 3: of not posting the Black Square and then kind of

373
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Speaker 3: just going hard in saying that everyone needs to be

374
00:19:43,367 --> 00:19:46,087
Speaker 3: posting gosh. And you know what, even when I think

375
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Speaker 3: about it, I'm like, oh my god, really really.

376
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Speaker 2: So then you had a surreal situation where all these

377
00:19:54,927 --> 00:19:57,007
Speaker 2: white people who were trying to be allies to the

378
00:19:57,007 --> 00:20:00,767
Speaker 2: black community started panicking because they didn't know whether the

379
00:20:00,767 --> 00:20:02,647
Speaker 2: best way to do that was to post the Black

380
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Speaker 2: square or delete the one that already posted, and suddenly

381
00:20:06,527 --> 00:20:09,607
Speaker 2: it wasn't even about George Floyd anymore or fighting race season,

382
00:20:09,967 --> 00:20:13,047
Speaker 2: but it suddenly became about cancelation by this group of

383
00:20:13,087 --> 00:20:16,367
Speaker 2: vigilantes who were policing what everyone was doing.

384
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Speaker 3: That's you just named it. That's exactly it. It stopped

385
00:20:19,767 --> 00:20:23,167
Speaker 3: becoming about the thing. The intent just became very different.

386
00:20:23,327 --> 00:20:26,447
Speaker 3: It just became very different. So that's what I was doing.

387
00:20:26,647 --> 00:20:28,967
Speaker 3: Everyone should be talking about this. Why is no one talking?

388
00:20:29,007 --> 00:20:31,727
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah? And then this man sends me a DM,

389
00:20:31,887 --> 00:20:35,647
Speaker 3: which it was really polite. He was just curious about

390
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Speaker 3: my approach. He had been someone that had been following

391
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Speaker 3: my work for a while, so I think the way

392
00:20:40,847 --> 00:20:44,447
Speaker 3: in which I was approaching this conversation was just very

393
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Speaker 3: different from what he would have expected of me, understandably so,

394
00:20:49,047 --> 00:20:51,327
Speaker 3: so he was pretty much just asking, do I really

395
00:20:51,407 --> 00:20:54,247
Speaker 3: think this is the right way to be going about this.

396
00:20:54,447 --> 00:20:57,607
Speaker 3: I'm saying that I want people to come together, people

397
00:20:57,687 --> 00:21:00,087
Speaker 3: to be talking about this, So do I think that

398
00:21:00,167 --> 00:21:03,047
Speaker 3: this is the right approach for it? And I didn't

399
00:21:03,327 --> 00:21:07,327
Speaker 3: even respond to him. I screenshotted the DM the conversation,

400
00:21:08,087 --> 00:21:12,247
Speaker 3: posted it onto my Instagram feed, and then again immediately

401
00:21:12,447 --> 00:21:15,327
Speaker 3: because already I was getting cheers and validation from the

402
00:21:15,367 --> 00:21:19,847
Speaker 3: calling out people calling in every self righteous action possible.

403
00:21:19,967 --> 00:21:23,647
Speaker 3: You know, I was getting applauded for it. And when

404
00:21:23,687 --> 00:21:27,847
Speaker 3: I posted that screenshot immediately again, because you have to

405
00:21:28,087 --> 00:21:31,327
Speaker 3: think back to the time, everyone is on their phones, yes,

406
00:21:31,767 --> 00:21:37,447
Speaker 3: and everything would explode at that time. And that's exactly

407
00:21:37,527 --> 00:21:39,367
Speaker 3: what happened with this post. And I think it was

408
00:21:39,527 --> 00:21:42,527
Speaker 3: up for all of twenty minutes, but it had tens

409
00:21:42,527 --> 00:21:46,207
Speaker 3: of thousands of likes and comments and well done. And

410
00:21:46,327 --> 00:21:48,687
Speaker 3: he shouldn't be speaking to you in this way, you know,

411
00:21:49,007 --> 00:21:52,007
Speaker 3: all of those ego stroking things, no one asked for

412
00:21:52,047 --> 00:21:55,607
Speaker 3: any context. Actually, I think there were some people that

413
00:21:55,687 --> 00:21:59,127
Speaker 3: were commenting saying that is a valuable thing to ask,

414
00:21:59,287 --> 00:22:02,567
Speaker 3: you know, but I didn't. I didn't want to see

415
00:22:03,007 --> 00:22:05,047
Speaker 3: any of that. I didn't want to see anything that

416
00:22:05,047 --> 00:22:07,087
Speaker 3: would sort of break me out of this rance.

417
00:22:07,287 --> 00:22:09,887
Speaker 2: Did it feel good those twenty minutes? Oh?

418
00:22:09,967 --> 00:22:13,567
Speaker 3: Absolutely, are you kidding me? It feels like the thing

419
00:22:13,607 --> 00:22:17,167
Speaker 3: that I was saying before. It's exhilarating, you feel powerful.

420
00:22:17,287 --> 00:22:19,927
Speaker 3: It's like an arousal of all of the senses because

421
00:22:19,927 --> 00:22:25,127
Speaker 3: you're getting an insanely abnormal amount of validation and affirmation

422
00:22:25,287 --> 00:22:28,047
Speaker 3: from all corners of the globe at the same time.

423
00:22:28,447 --> 00:22:33,447
Speaker 3: You know, you can see, actually how people easily become

424
00:22:33,567 --> 00:22:36,487
Speaker 3: caricatures of themselves based on a moment in time.

425
00:22:36,807 --> 00:22:37,407
Speaker 1: You see it.

426
00:22:37,607 --> 00:22:40,207
Speaker 3: You see it because they want to repeat that same

427
00:22:40,327 --> 00:22:41,847
Speaker 3: thing again and again and again.

428
00:22:41,927 --> 00:22:44,287
Speaker 1: It's almost like taking drugs for the first time.

429
00:22:44,127 --> 00:22:47,407
Speaker 2: And that becomes their identity exactly.

430
00:22:47,367 --> 00:22:49,807
Speaker 3: And you're chasing that same feeling, so you're reading the

431
00:22:49,807 --> 00:22:53,327
Speaker 3: same thing, and in that moment, it's about twenty minutes,

432
00:22:53,887 --> 00:22:56,167
Speaker 3: I had this experience where I sort of zoomed out

433
00:22:56,207 --> 00:22:59,087
Speaker 3: of myself. You could call it dissociation or whatever, but

434
00:22:59,167 --> 00:23:02,407
Speaker 3: I think I had just hit my max of trying

435
00:23:02,487 --> 00:23:06,087
Speaker 3: to of wearing the mask, if you will, of wearing

436
00:23:06,087 --> 00:23:09,287
Speaker 3: the mask when actually had all of these questions. I

437
00:23:09,327 --> 00:23:12,007
Speaker 3: somewhat agreed with this man, and I knew that he

438
00:23:12,087 --> 00:23:15,287
Speaker 3: was saying was valuable, but the cognitive dissonance was so intense,

439
00:23:15,807 --> 00:23:17,647
Speaker 3: and to be honest, I think it was shame. I

440
00:23:17,687 --> 00:23:21,687
Speaker 3: felt ashamed because he was right. I felt ashamed because

441
00:23:21,887 --> 00:23:24,087
Speaker 3: everything that I was doing in this moment in time

442
00:23:24,247 --> 00:23:27,847
Speaker 3: was so directly opposing the work that I'd been doing

443
00:23:27,847 --> 00:23:31,127
Speaker 3: for the past five to six years. I was ashamed

444
00:23:31,207 --> 00:23:34,767
Speaker 3: because I had been called out. To be honest, I

445
00:23:34,807 --> 00:23:37,567
Speaker 3: would say what this man did with the truly calling in,

446
00:23:38,167 --> 00:23:41,047
Speaker 3: calling someone in saying hey, coming into me privately and

447
00:23:41,087 --> 00:23:43,727
Speaker 3: saying hey, I've been following your work for a while

448
00:23:43,767 --> 00:23:45,567
Speaker 3: and I respect what you do. So I just wanted

449
00:23:45,567 --> 00:23:47,767
Speaker 3: to know, do you genuinely believe that this is the

450
00:23:47,847 --> 00:23:48,527
Speaker 3: right approach?

451
00:23:48,807 --> 00:23:49,047
Speaker 1: You know?

452
00:23:49,527 --> 00:23:52,887
Speaker 3: So, it's almost as if that's what it was, cognitive dissonance,

453
00:23:52,927 --> 00:23:56,607
Speaker 3: which was wrapped in shame and embarrassment and having to

454
00:23:56,647 --> 00:23:59,447
Speaker 3: look at myself, you know so instead of taking the

455
00:23:59,487 --> 00:24:02,567
Speaker 3: time to respond to him, I was going to publicly

456
00:24:02,607 --> 00:24:03,767
Speaker 3: shame him instead.

457
00:24:04,247 --> 00:24:06,047
Speaker 2: You know, why did you take it down?

458
00:24:06,647 --> 00:24:09,087
Speaker 3: I took it down because I had that experience of

459
00:24:09,367 --> 00:24:13,687
Speaker 3: seeing myself behaving in this way, and I felt sick.

460
00:24:14,327 --> 00:24:17,647
Speaker 3: I don't have many moments in my life where something

461
00:24:17,647 --> 00:24:22,847
Speaker 3: has happened psychologically that has actually made me feel so sick,

462
00:24:23,007 --> 00:24:25,367
Speaker 3: and that was one of those moments. And I immediately

463
00:24:25,407 --> 00:24:29,487
Speaker 3: deleted the post and I logged out off Instagram I

464
00:24:29,527 --> 00:24:31,967
Speaker 3: think for a day or a couple of days, and

465
00:24:32,087 --> 00:24:34,527
Speaker 3: in that time, I just started journaling.

466
00:24:34,727 --> 00:24:36,407
Speaker 1: I just started writing.

467
00:24:36,487 --> 00:24:41,247
Speaker 3: Everything everything that I had felt afraid to say, everything

468
00:24:41,287 --> 00:24:44,407
Speaker 3: that I had seen in myself everything that I had

469
00:24:44,447 --> 00:24:46,487
Speaker 3: been writing over the past couple of years, because I've

470
00:24:46,487 --> 00:24:49,527
Speaker 3: always journaled, so all of those moments that I felt

471
00:24:49,567 --> 00:24:51,807
Speaker 3: I needed to speak and think and behave in a

472
00:24:51,847 --> 00:24:56,087
Speaker 3: specific way because I'm Black, because I'm supposedly left leaning,

473
00:24:56,167 --> 00:24:59,247
Speaker 3: because of all of these identity things. I wrote it down,

474
00:24:59,487 --> 00:25:03,127
Speaker 3: and that is what inspired the open letter that I

475
00:25:03,127 --> 00:25:06,407
Speaker 3: would then write in early twenty twenty one, which was

476
00:25:06,447 --> 00:25:09,687
Speaker 3: called why I'm leaving the Cult of Wokeness. So that

477
00:25:09,807 --> 00:25:13,047
Speaker 3: open letter didn't just sort of happen. I wrote it

478
00:25:13,127 --> 00:25:15,167
Speaker 3: in two hours. It was four thousand words. I wrote

479
00:25:15,167 --> 00:25:17,207
Speaker 3: it in a couple of hours, But it was a

480
00:25:17,327 --> 00:25:20,447
Speaker 3: build up from twenty eighteen, as I was saying to you,

481
00:25:20,967 --> 00:25:24,367
Speaker 3: of just suddenly realizing that I have been betraying myself

482
00:25:24,407 --> 00:25:28,687
Speaker 3: without even realizing, I have been self editing and monitoring

483
00:25:28,727 --> 00:25:32,687
Speaker 3: my language and replacing my language with scripts and things

484
00:25:32,687 --> 00:25:34,847
Speaker 3: that I don't actually believe in, because I thought, if

485
00:25:34,887 --> 00:25:38,327
Speaker 3: I truly say what I think, or I truly just

486
00:25:38,447 --> 00:25:42,167
Speaker 3: generally express curiosity in a way that is not so

487
00:25:42,287 --> 00:25:44,967
Speaker 3: called allowed, that I'm going to be canceled, that I'm

488
00:25:44,967 --> 00:25:47,207
Speaker 3: going to be punished for it, that I'm going to

489
00:25:47,247 --> 00:25:50,687
Speaker 3: be exiled by my community, That I will lose my audience,

490
00:25:50,687 --> 00:25:53,487
Speaker 3: that I will lose my clients, that I will lose opportunities.

491
00:25:54,127 --> 00:25:54,967
Speaker 1: All of these things.

492
00:25:55,007 --> 00:25:59,127
Speaker 3: I associated speaking the truth with loss. There was no

493
00:25:59,247 --> 00:26:02,087
Speaker 3: other way around it. It was just like, if I

494
00:26:02,247 --> 00:26:04,887
Speaker 3: ask questions, if I speak the truth, if I point

495
00:26:04,887 --> 00:26:08,607
Speaker 3: out contradictions, there will be loss. There was no you

496
00:26:08,647 --> 00:26:11,167
Speaker 3: know what I what I referred to as the third perspective.

497
00:26:11,207 --> 00:26:13,287
Speaker 3: There was no kind of nuance, There was no grade.

498
00:26:13,367 --> 00:26:16,167
Speaker 3: There was no well, I might lose these people, but

499
00:26:16,207 --> 00:26:19,487
Speaker 3: what if I gain all of that, or actually I

500
00:26:19,527 --> 00:26:22,607
Speaker 3: don't need an audience that expects me to perform a

501
00:26:22,767 --> 00:26:24,607
Speaker 3: very specific version of myself.

502
00:26:25,127 --> 00:26:26,047
Speaker 1: There was just no.

503
00:26:27,807 --> 00:26:31,087
Speaker 3: Option of any other way to be apart from compliance.

504
00:26:31,727 --> 00:26:35,487
Speaker 3: So twenty twenty was really big because of that. And

505
00:26:35,527 --> 00:26:40,807
Speaker 3: then shortly after, you know, the racial uprising then became

506
00:26:40,887 --> 00:26:44,447
Speaker 3: the are you vaccinated or not vaccinated conversation, which then

507
00:26:44,647 --> 00:26:47,767
Speaker 3: became another whole thing. So all of that is for

508
00:26:47,807 --> 00:26:50,407
Speaker 3: me what inspired me to write that open letter and

509
00:26:50,407 --> 00:26:54,167
Speaker 3: to just make the declaration that whatever, whatever this thing is,

510
00:26:54,207 --> 00:26:58,167
Speaker 3: whatever this game is, I just refuse to do it.

511
00:26:58,247 --> 00:26:59,407
Speaker 1: I won't do it anymore.

512
00:27:01,247 --> 00:27:04,927
Speaker 2: After this shortbreak. What happened after Africa shared her views

513
00:27:04,967 --> 00:27:08,607
Speaker 2: with the world was she canceled? Did you regret it?

514
00:27:13,367 --> 00:27:13,807
Speaker 1: Africa?

515
00:27:13,847 --> 00:27:16,567
Speaker 2: You begin your open letter with the words, if there's

516
00:27:16,607 --> 00:27:19,607
Speaker 2: one thing I'm not afraid of, it's being canceled. If

517
00:27:19,647 --> 00:27:22,447
Speaker 2: being canceled means me living in integrity as a human

518
00:27:22,487 --> 00:27:26,327
Speaker 2: being who thinks for themselves, cancel me today. I repeat,

519
00:27:26,807 --> 00:27:31,127
Speaker 2: I am not afraid. Were you really not afraid? Because

520
00:27:31,367 --> 00:27:34,887
Speaker 2: I think everyone today, whether or not they're a public figure,

521
00:27:36,047 --> 00:27:39,287
Speaker 2: is pretty afraid of being canceled, right because it can

522
00:27:39,327 --> 00:27:42,927
Speaker 2: feel like we're all one misstep away from cancelation. And

523
00:27:42,967 --> 00:27:45,727
Speaker 2: we've seen it happen to enough people now to know

524
00:27:45,767 --> 00:27:49,167
Speaker 2: how brutal it looks. So how did you become unafraid

525
00:27:49,207 --> 00:27:51,087
Speaker 2: of that? You know?

526
00:27:51,127 --> 00:27:55,007
Speaker 3: What I think, if there's anything that I've learned is

527
00:27:55,007 --> 00:27:58,247
Speaker 3: that fear never absolutely goes away.

528
00:27:58,407 --> 00:28:01,207
Speaker 1: It's just a different quality of fear. I think.

529
00:28:01,767 --> 00:28:05,807
Speaker 3: So for me, I did have that undercurrent of fear,

530
00:28:05,927 --> 00:28:09,407
Speaker 3: which is absolutely normal, because I was doing something that

531
00:28:09,527 --> 00:28:12,207
Speaker 3: was so high risk for a lot of reasons, for

532
00:28:12,767 --> 00:28:16,847
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons, because I felt that me pressing

533
00:28:16,887 --> 00:28:20,727
Speaker 3: published was again all of it was based on identity,

534
00:28:20,767 --> 00:28:23,767
Speaker 3: because We're in such an identity obsessed world, and when

535
00:28:23,807 --> 00:28:27,047
Speaker 3: you are a racialized person that has been labeled an

536
00:28:27,047 --> 00:28:30,447
Speaker 3: activist and all of these other things, there are expectations

537
00:28:30,527 --> 00:28:33,167
Speaker 3: off you. So the risk that I was taking was,

538
00:28:34,207 --> 00:28:36,967
Speaker 3: will I be betraying the black community, Will I be

539
00:28:36,967 --> 00:28:40,007
Speaker 3: betraying women? Will I be betraying other left leaning people?

540
00:28:40,087 --> 00:28:42,527
Speaker 3: Am I betraying my audience and friends and people that

541
00:28:42,567 --> 00:28:45,127
Speaker 3: think they know me and my partner and whatever else?

542
00:28:45,647 --> 00:28:47,367
Speaker 1: But also I was.

543
00:28:47,327 --> 00:28:50,687
Speaker 3: At such a point of almost like a rage, if

544
00:28:50,727 --> 00:28:54,407
Speaker 3: you will, because suddenly I couldn't unsee how many people

545
00:28:54,447 --> 00:28:59,087
Speaker 3: were monetizing from people's shame. I couldn't unsee how many

546
00:28:59,127 --> 00:29:02,967
Speaker 3: people were actually making this a business. They didn't want

547
00:29:03,127 --> 00:29:06,487
Speaker 3: racism to go away, you know, because then they're out

548
00:29:06,527 --> 00:29:08,527
Speaker 3: of pocket, they're out of a book deal, they're out

549
00:29:08,527 --> 00:29:10,567
Speaker 3: of a brand deal, they're out of all of these things.

550
00:29:10,567 --> 00:29:12,407
Speaker 1: So they're constantly creating problems.

551
00:29:12,847 --> 00:29:16,807
Speaker 3: I couldn't unsee the people or the activists that are

552
00:29:16,847 --> 00:29:21,447
Speaker 3: constantly keeping women so afraid, you know, never making women

553
00:29:21,527 --> 00:29:24,327
Speaker 3: feel empowered about the realities of the world.

554
00:29:24,407 --> 00:29:27,087
Speaker 1: But there was just so much fear that was being

555
00:29:27,167 --> 00:29:27,887
Speaker 1: sold as.

556
00:29:27,807 --> 00:29:32,527
Speaker 3: Progress and empowerment, and that enraged me to the point

557
00:29:32,567 --> 00:29:34,647
Speaker 3: of actually not allowing what of a fear that I

558
00:29:34,687 --> 00:29:38,047
Speaker 3: felt to consume me because I had realized that I

559
00:29:38,087 --> 00:29:40,447
Speaker 3: had been such a coward. I had been a coward

560
00:29:40,487 --> 00:29:42,727
Speaker 3: and I didn't even know, and I had so much

561
00:29:42,767 --> 00:29:46,767
Speaker 3: compassion and empathy for that coward. But I needed this

562
00:29:46,927 --> 00:29:49,647
Speaker 3: version of Africa to step forward and to say, this

563
00:29:49,927 --> 00:29:53,367
Speaker 3: is what we're doing now. So I was not The

564
00:29:53,407 --> 00:29:55,887
Speaker 3: truth is I was not afraid of cancelation. I was

565
00:29:55,927 --> 00:29:58,567
Speaker 3: not afraid of the exile. I was afraid of the

566
00:29:58,647 --> 00:30:02,807
Speaker 3: uncertainty because there's so much unknown once you liberate yourself,

567
00:30:02,847 --> 00:30:04,447
Speaker 3: there is so much that is unknown.

568
00:30:04,767 --> 00:30:06,407
Speaker 1: But in writing those.

569
00:30:06,247 --> 00:30:09,207
Speaker 3: Words, even when I read them back now or someone

570
00:30:09,327 --> 00:30:11,967
Speaker 3: reads them back to me, I feel a sense of

571
00:30:12,047 --> 00:30:15,287
Speaker 3: so much power. That's exactly how I felt in that moment.

572
00:30:15,767 --> 00:30:18,687
Speaker 3: I didn't feel consumed by fear at all.

573
00:30:18,927 --> 00:30:19,407
Speaker 1: I didn't.

574
00:30:19,487 --> 00:30:22,487
Speaker 3: But I think it's because being consumed by fear was

575
00:30:22,607 --> 00:30:24,807
Speaker 3: just no longer a choice at that time.

576
00:30:25,087 --> 00:30:28,487
Speaker 2: Your open letter went viral. It's currently been read by

577
00:30:28,567 --> 00:30:33,207
Speaker 2: I think around twenty million people. Were you canceled? No,

578
00:30:34,207 --> 00:30:35,247
Speaker 2: what happened.

579
00:30:37,087 --> 00:30:38,007
Speaker 1: Quite the opposite.

580
00:30:38,127 --> 00:30:43,687
Speaker 3: Actually my letter, I realized, here's the thing by the way,

581
00:30:43,687 --> 00:30:46,567
Speaker 3: Can I ask you a question, how do you define cancelation?

582
00:30:46,887 --> 00:30:50,207
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question, isn't it. I mean, I've

583
00:30:50,247 --> 00:30:54,247
Speaker 2: been canceled so many times, over so many years before

584
00:30:54,247 --> 00:30:56,047
Speaker 2: it was even called that. It used to be called

585
00:30:56,047 --> 00:31:01,207
Speaker 2: a pylon or backlash or outrage culture. But I think

586
00:31:01,247 --> 00:31:03,407
Speaker 2: a pylon is probably the best description of what it

587
00:31:03,447 --> 00:31:06,727
Speaker 2: feels like when it happens to you. And it's very

588
00:31:06,727 --> 00:31:09,567
Speaker 2: different to criticism. I always try to explain that to

589
00:31:09,607 --> 00:31:14,647
Speaker 2: people that can be constructive. Criticism can always be helpful

590
00:31:14,687 --> 00:31:18,247
Speaker 2: and even well meaning. But cancelation is such a horrible

591
00:31:18,287 --> 00:31:24,567
Speaker 2: word because it's so dehumanizing. It's so dehumanizing, like you

592
00:31:24,647 --> 00:31:28,127
Speaker 2: cancel a flight or you cancel a meeting. You don't

593
00:31:28,167 --> 00:31:33,487
Speaker 2: cancel a human being, and yet people try to because

594
00:31:33,487 --> 00:31:35,727
Speaker 2: the thing is that you can reschedule a flight or

595
00:31:35,767 --> 00:31:38,767
Speaker 2: a meeting, but there's no formal process for being uncanceled,

596
00:31:39,207 --> 00:31:41,047
Speaker 2: and that's kind of the point to it, to delete

597
00:31:41,087 --> 00:31:45,327
Speaker 2: you as a person, which is just so awful. And

598
00:31:45,367 --> 00:31:47,527
Speaker 2: the other thing about that word is how it's applied

599
00:31:47,527 --> 00:31:49,407
Speaker 2: to such a wide range of people, for such a

600
00:31:49,447 --> 00:31:52,887
Speaker 2: wide range of things. So like everyone from Harvey Weinstein,

601
00:31:52,927 --> 00:31:56,407
Speaker 2: who was actually a serial rapist who went to jail

602
00:31:56,607 --> 00:31:59,687
Speaker 2: for his crimes to someone who used a word that

603
00:31:59,847 --> 00:32:03,647
Speaker 2: maybe they didn't realize was no longer acceptable because I

604
00:32:03,647 --> 00:32:05,807
Speaker 2: don't know, they're seventy years old, or maybe they just

605
00:32:05,887 --> 00:32:09,767
Speaker 2: don't mix in kind of woke circles. So I guess

606
00:32:09,807 --> 00:32:12,967
Speaker 2: with cancelation, the big difference to me, besides the fact

607
00:32:13,007 --> 00:32:16,807
Speaker 2: that Harvey Weinstein committed actual crimes, is that he didn't

608
00:32:16,847 --> 00:32:19,967
Speaker 2: do them by accident, and the person who used the

609
00:32:19,967 --> 00:32:23,287
Speaker 2: wrong word probably wasn't trying to cause harm. You know.

610
00:32:23,327 --> 00:32:25,967
Speaker 2: I know this is general, but in most cases when

611
00:32:26,007 --> 00:32:31,887
Speaker 2: someone's canceled, they didn't intend to be offensive or cause harm.

612
00:32:32,127 --> 00:32:33,927
Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean that they didn't offend people and

613
00:32:33,967 --> 00:32:38,007
Speaker 2: they didn't cause harm. But cancelation is the total flattening

614
00:32:38,367 --> 00:32:42,447
Speaker 2: of intention and effect. So that's kind of how I've

615
00:32:42,487 --> 00:32:45,047
Speaker 2: come to understand it. How do you think of cancelation?

616
00:32:45,607 --> 00:32:48,807
Speaker 3: I love that so much, I think, and I'll just

617
00:32:48,847 --> 00:32:52,327
Speaker 3: say this as well, even when you think of Harvey Weinstein, right,

618
00:32:52,487 --> 00:32:58,327
Speaker 3: he still received due process. Right, he did still receive

619
00:32:58,527 --> 00:33:01,767
Speaker 3: due process. So I asked that question, and it's a

620
00:33:01,847 --> 00:33:03,847
Speaker 3: question that I now ask a lot of people because

621
00:33:03,887 --> 00:33:07,927
Speaker 3: I genuinely believe that a lot of the potarization that

622
00:33:07,967 --> 00:33:11,167
Speaker 3: we continued to expe experience and just never getting anywhere

623
00:33:11,207 --> 00:33:13,887
Speaker 3: in conversation is because we have definition issues.

624
00:33:14,687 --> 00:33:15,607
Speaker 1: Because if I.

625
00:33:15,687 --> 00:33:22,087
Speaker 3: Think cancelation is simply accountability and allowing for people to

626
00:33:22,127 --> 00:33:24,007
Speaker 3: see the harm that they've done so they can take

627
00:33:24,087 --> 00:33:28,447
Speaker 3: responsibility for their actions, sure I would be on board.

628
00:33:28,127 --> 00:33:30,047
Speaker 1: With that too if that was actually true.

629
00:33:30,567 --> 00:33:33,927
Speaker 3: But if another person, and I'm the other person in

630
00:33:33,927 --> 00:33:36,847
Speaker 3: this case, if another person believes that cancelation is a

631
00:33:36,887 --> 00:33:43,567
Speaker 3: combination of public shaming, pylons, virtual stoning, that it's doxing,

632
00:33:43,767 --> 00:33:47,647
Speaker 3: that it's anti social behavior, it's cyberbullying, then we're working

633
00:33:47,647 --> 00:33:49,847
Speaker 3: with completely different definitions, so.

634
00:33:49,807 --> 00:33:51,487
Speaker 1: We'll never agree on what it is.

635
00:33:51,567 --> 00:33:55,327
Speaker 3: So I always like to ask people how they do

636
00:33:55,527 --> 00:33:58,607
Speaker 3: define it after having studied this for the past five

637
00:33:58,647 --> 00:34:02,047
Speaker 3: to six years and really understanding the nature of cancel culture,

638
00:34:02,087 --> 00:34:05,727
Speaker 3: which I prefer to call it collective sabotage. And the

639
00:34:05,767 --> 00:34:08,447
Speaker 3: reason I do that is because I've been studying self

640
00:34:08,447 --> 00:34:12,607
Speaker 3: sabotage for the past eight years. Self sabotage being and

641
00:34:12,647 --> 00:34:14,687
Speaker 3: this is how I describe it in the book. When

642
00:34:14,727 --> 00:34:17,087
Speaker 3: you are the one poking holes in your own ship

643
00:34:17,567 --> 00:34:20,007
Speaker 3: when what it is that you say you want is

644
00:34:20,047 --> 00:34:24,127
Speaker 3: in direct conflict with your behavior. You're saying you want progress,

645
00:34:24,167 --> 00:34:28,727
Speaker 3: but you're using extremely regressive methods to get there, you know,

646
00:34:29,327 --> 00:34:32,007
Speaker 3: and you're pulling the plug on your own cause. So

647
00:34:32,127 --> 00:34:34,687
Speaker 3: when you have individuals that are already in a state

648
00:34:34,767 --> 00:34:37,927
Speaker 3: of self sabotage and then we come together as a collective,

649
00:34:38,407 --> 00:34:42,407
Speaker 3: we're quite literally acting against our own best interest. Because

650
00:34:42,407 --> 00:34:44,807
Speaker 3: if you are part of a mob and you get

651
00:34:44,847 --> 00:34:49,247
Speaker 3: your exhilaration and fire and charge from that, you better

652
00:34:49,247 --> 00:34:51,327
Speaker 3: believe that same mob is going to come after you

653
00:34:51,407 --> 00:34:55,287
Speaker 3: the moment you get any step out of line, and

654
00:34:55,367 --> 00:34:57,207
Speaker 3: the same thing will happen to you. But we don't

655
00:34:57,207 --> 00:34:59,767
Speaker 3: think that far. We have very sort of short term

656
00:34:59,847 --> 00:35:01,967
Speaker 3: thinking in this mindset.

657
00:35:02,167 --> 00:35:04,047
Speaker 1: So for me, I.

658
00:35:05,647 --> 00:35:10,127
Speaker 3: Haven't been canceled, whether it's in my O lester or

659
00:35:10,247 --> 00:35:14,287
Speaker 3: my work from then. Sure, I've had people. I remember

660
00:35:14,487 --> 00:35:17,807
Speaker 3: someone actually and I thought this was so hilarious. I

661
00:35:18,727 --> 00:35:21,807
Speaker 3: think it's when I wrote my open letter and then

662
00:35:22,647 --> 00:35:24,767
Speaker 3: this woman sent me. She was a black American woman.

663
00:35:24,847 --> 00:35:29,047
Speaker 3: She sent me this long email about how she's been

664
00:35:29,047 --> 00:35:31,807
Speaker 3: following my work for such a long time and she's

665
00:35:31,847 --> 00:35:35,127
Speaker 3: so disappointed that I have decided to become a bed

666
00:35:35,167 --> 00:35:37,247
Speaker 3: wench for the white man, and.

667
00:35:37,167 --> 00:35:45,287
Speaker 2: I wow, a bed wench for the white man. Wow,

668
00:35:45,767 --> 00:35:47,927
Speaker 2: what an insult. It's very creative.

669
00:35:47,967 --> 00:35:51,167
Speaker 1: It's seen how much I was laughing. Yeah, I could

670
00:35:51,247 --> 00:35:54,647
Speaker 1: not stop cracking up. I was like, that takes time

671
00:35:54,807 --> 00:35:57,647
Speaker 1: to write an email, and it was. It was very

672
00:35:57,727 --> 00:35:58,447
Speaker 1: well listened to.

673
00:35:59,047 --> 00:36:02,327
Speaker 3: Honestly, I've never received any sort of trolling or any

674
00:36:02,367 --> 00:36:03,887
Speaker 3: cancelation or any call.

675
00:36:03,727 --> 00:36:04,887
Speaker 1: Outs or anything like that.

676
00:36:05,247 --> 00:36:07,447
Speaker 3: And I think it's because when you actually read my

677
00:36:07,567 --> 00:36:10,647
Speaker 3: open letter, it's very easy to see the word wokeness

678
00:36:10,647 --> 00:36:13,047
Speaker 3: on the title and to make so many assumptions about

679
00:36:13,047 --> 00:36:15,527
Speaker 3: what will be in there. But I think I'm quite fair,

680
00:36:15,687 --> 00:36:18,847
Speaker 3: so I've never experienced cancelation. And I think it's because

681
00:36:19,727 --> 00:36:21,367
Speaker 3: this kind of like a mindset thing. And it might

682
00:36:21,367 --> 00:36:24,287
Speaker 3: sound really abstract, but I think there's something about it.

683
00:36:24,327 --> 00:36:27,407
Speaker 3: Even happens with bullies in the playground, right. If you

684
00:36:27,607 --> 00:36:31,247
Speaker 3: show fear, you become more attractive. That's just how it works,

685
00:36:31,647 --> 00:36:34,327
Speaker 3: if you don't allow for your convictions to be shown.

686
00:36:34,447 --> 00:36:37,567
Speaker 3: And I'm very good at being convicted, but I'm still open,

687
00:36:37,647 --> 00:36:38,687
Speaker 3: I'm still very warm.

688
00:36:38,807 --> 00:36:40,527
Speaker 1: I'm not cynical.

689
00:36:41,087 --> 00:36:43,527
Speaker 3: I am able to look at things differently if someone

690
00:36:43,567 --> 00:36:46,847
Speaker 3: offers me new information that I wasn't aware of. So

691
00:36:47,247 --> 00:36:50,007
Speaker 3: I think my open letter served as a point of

692
00:36:50,247 --> 00:36:54,927
Speaker 3: just relief for so many people, especially other racialized people

693
00:36:54,927 --> 00:36:58,207
Speaker 3: who didn't know that they could or who had forgotten

694
00:36:58,367 --> 00:37:00,447
Speaker 3: rather that they could ask questions that they can say

695
00:37:00,447 --> 00:37:01,727
Speaker 3: I don't agree with that, or.

696
00:37:01,687 --> 00:37:03,807
Speaker 2: I agree with parts of it, but there are other

697
00:37:03,847 --> 00:37:06,607
Speaker 2: parts I'm not willing to sign up for.

698
00:37:06,927 --> 00:37:09,327
Speaker 3: That's exactly it, to say this works for me, but

699
00:37:09,367 --> 00:37:11,167
Speaker 3: this doesn't quite work me, you know.

700
00:37:11,887 --> 00:37:13,127
Speaker 2: Or I'm unclear about that.

701
00:37:13,207 --> 00:37:16,847
Speaker 3: I see it in a more nuanced way exactly. And

702
00:37:16,927 --> 00:37:20,007
Speaker 3: also for people that have been racialized as white, that

703
00:37:20,127 --> 00:37:23,007
Speaker 3: were made to believe that they have this original sin

704
00:37:23,127 --> 00:37:26,207
Speaker 3: that they need to I just don't believe in any

705
00:37:26,287 --> 00:37:28,327
Speaker 3: of that. I just won't stand for it. And I

706
00:37:28,367 --> 00:37:32,047
Speaker 3: think it just offered as a point of relief for people.

707
00:37:32,567 --> 00:37:33,327
Speaker 1: And I think.

708
00:37:33,207 --> 00:37:38,327
Speaker 3: Because of my genuine curiosity, but also my expertise as

709
00:37:38,367 --> 00:37:41,927
Speaker 3: a developmental coach, as a researcher, as a consultant, as

710
00:37:41,927 --> 00:37:45,567
Speaker 3: a writer, it's allowed me to continue exploring the conversation

711
00:37:45,727 --> 00:37:48,887
Speaker 3: in a way that isn't sensationalized. You know, I'm not

712
00:37:49,047 --> 00:37:51,807
Speaker 3: doing this, so I can be a talking head. So

713
00:37:51,847 --> 00:37:54,967
Speaker 3: I can kind of, as we were saying before, hone

714
00:37:55,047 --> 00:37:58,287
Speaker 3: in on just one thing. So I'm not anti woke,

715
00:37:58,367 --> 00:38:01,687
Speaker 3: for example. I haven't made anti woke my identity and

716
00:38:01,727 --> 00:38:03,847
Speaker 3: sort of become like a caricature of myself.

717
00:38:03,887 --> 00:38:04,927
Speaker 1: That's not what I'm doing.

718
00:38:05,287 --> 00:38:08,247
Speaker 3: So I think my work is easily received by people

719
00:38:08,327 --> 00:38:11,887
Speaker 3: because they can feel that it's not some kind of well,

720
00:38:12,007 --> 00:38:13,407
Speaker 3: what's the time for this?

721
00:38:13,647 --> 00:38:18,327
Speaker 2: Well, you're not scolding people like, it's not about scolding.

722
00:38:18,527 --> 00:38:23,127
Speaker 2: It's about it's about refusing to be part of a

723
00:38:23,127 --> 00:38:29,047
Speaker 2: polarized system who insists that you pledge complete allegiance to

724
00:38:29,167 --> 00:38:34,727
Speaker 2: a particular team. Yes, after this break, I'm going to

725
00:38:34,767 --> 00:38:38,007
Speaker 2: ask Africa about this current moment in the news and

726
00:38:38,167 --> 00:38:42,287
Speaker 2: how it's playing out on social media. And I'll be honest,

727
00:38:42,607 --> 00:38:45,167
Speaker 2: this is the part of the conversation I'm most nervous

728
00:38:45,207 --> 00:38:51,967
Speaker 2: about Africa. Since October seventh last year, we've seen a

729
00:38:52,007 --> 00:38:55,327
Speaker 2: similar situation play out on social media as we saw

730
00:38:55,447 --> 00:38:59,367
Speaker 2: after George Floyd's death, in that the world's been really

731
00:38:59,407 --> 00:39:03,647
Speaker 2: shocked and really distressed by truly horrific news and images

732
00:39:04,047 --> 00:39:06,407
Speaker 2: of the war in the Middle East and there has

733
00:39:06,447 --> 00:39:09,247
Speaker 2: been a similar attempt by some people to kind of

734
00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:13,847
Speaker 2: police what isn't isn't being posted about the war. And

735
00:39:14,047 --> 00:39:17,047
Speaker 2: just as the black square turned out to be, I guess,

736
00:39:17,047 --> 00:39:21,247
Speaker 2: an imperfect expression of solidarity with Black Lives Matter, we

737
00:39:21,287 --> 00:39:24,447
Speaker 2: saw a similar phenomenon a couple of months ago where

738
00:39:24,527 --> 00:39:27,967
Speaker 2: in a twenty four hour period, millions of people on

739
00:39:28,007 --> 00:39:31,567
Speaker 2: social media all around the world posted that image with

740
00:39:31,687 --> 00:39:34,647
Speaker 2: the words all lies on RAFA to show their support

741
00:39:34,647 --> 00:39:38,367
Speaker 2: for Palestinian civilians. And at the time there was a

742
00:39:38,367 --> 00:39:41,647
Speaker 2: lot of surveillance around who had and who hadn't posted it,

743
00:39:42,047 --> 00:39:45,047
Speaker 2: and then it emerged that the image had been generated

744
00:39:45,567 --> 00:39:49,087
Speaker 2: by AI, So then people started yelling about that. And

745
00:39:49,207 --> 00:39:52,607
Speaker 2: meanwhile the war continues and Palestinian people are still being

746
00:39:52,687 --> 00:39:55,407
Speaker 2: killed and the hostages are still being held. And then

747
00:39:55,447 --> 00:39:57,687
Speaker 2: some people believe if you don't post about those things,

748
00:39:57,727 --> 00:40:00,887
Speaker 2: then that means that you don't care, so they start

749
00:40:01,007 --> 00:40:05,567
Speaker 2: questioning other people's humanity. Right, how did you read that

750
00:40:05,647 --> 00:40:08,567
Speaker 2: moment when everyone was posting and then deleting that tile

751
00:40:08,687 --> 00:40:09,927
Speaker 2: about raffa.

752
00:40:09,767 --> 00:40:13,407
Speaker 3: Gosh and thank you for bringing that up. I can

753
00:40:13,447 --> 00:40:15,967
Speaker 3: imagine that so many people listening will resonate with that.

754
00:40:16,287 --> 00:40:18,487
Speaker 3: The interesting thing about this is that even if someone

755
00:40:18,647 --> 00:40:20,727
Speaker 3: is listening to this in six months time or a

756
00:40:20,807 --> 00:40:23,767
Speaker 3: year or two years, three years, there's going to be something.

757
00:40:23,967 --> 00:40:26,407
Speaker 3: It's going to be something that is happening culturally that

758
00:40:26,487 --> 00:40:30,487
Speaker 3: will be very reminiscent of this. Always something, And that's

759
00:40:30,527 --> 00:40:32,127
Speaker 3: what I like to keep in mind, by the way,

760
00:40:32,207 --> 00:40:35,167
Speaker 3: and I would invite anyone listening to this or watching

761
00:40:35,207 --> 00:40:37,247
Speaker 3: to keep that in mind too, that there's always going

762
00:40:37,327 --> 00:40:40,567
Speaker 3: to be something. Try and notice the patterns in terms

763
00:40:40,647 --> 00:40:43,367
Speaker 3: of how you're expected to respond and the time in

764
00:40:43,407 --> 00:40:46,327
Speaker 3: which you're expected to respond. So for me, when I

765
00:40:46,367 --> 00:40:50,807
Speaker 3: saw that, exactly as you said, it was like immediate flashbacks.

766
00:40:51,167 --> 00:40:55,927
Speaker 3: It was the same mechanics, same mechanics. This thing comes out,

767
00:40:56,287 --> 00:40:59,447
Speaker 3: No one asks where it's from in terms of its origin. Again,

768
00:40:59,567 --> 00:41:04,647
Speaker 3: we do need urgently actually more media literacy for people

769
00:41:04,687 --> 00:41:07,527
Speaker 3: wondering where things are actually coming from and who are

770
00:41:07,527 --> 00:41:10,207
Speaker 3: they coming from, because again, things just come out and

771
00:41:10,247 --> 00:41:13,647
Speaker 3: we see, we tend to see a number. Okay, two

772
00:41:13,727 --> 00:41:16,287
Speaker 3: thousand people have shared this, ten thousand people have shared this,

773
00:41:16,327 --> 00:41:18,527
Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty thousand people have shared that means

774
00:41:18,647 --> 00:41:21,487
Speaker 3: I should also be sharing because there is that thing

775
00:41:21,567 --> 00:41:24,727
Speaker 3: where it's contagious. We don't ask any questions. We just

776
00:41:24,847 --> 00:41:28,367
Speaker 3: trust that the data being higher means that it's the

777
00:41:28,447 --> 00:41:30,687
Speaker 3: right thing that we need to be sharing. And for

778
00:41:30,767 --> 00:41:33,687
Speaker 3: many reasons it could have been because exactly as you said,

779
00:41:34,167 --> 00:41:36,487
Speaker 3: it makes people aware of what is going on. So

780
00:41:36,527 --> 00:41:39,447
Speaker 3: I understand that awareness peace offered in terms of that

781
00:41:39,487 --> 00:41:44,207
Speaker 3: being an objective. But within twenty four hours, actually people

782
00:41:44,207 --> 00:41:48,807
Speaker 3: were already being shamed for posting it exact same as

783
00:41:48,807 --> 00:41:53,247
Speaker 3: the black square, the exact same thing to a t

784
00:41:53,607 --> 00:41:57,447
Speaker 3: it is uncanny, right, And then now people are feeling

785
00:41:57,647 --> 00:42:00,287
Speaker 3: ashamed of being like, do I delete it? But if

786
00:42:00,327 --> 00:42:02,807
Speaker 3: I delete it, people might see that I've deleted.

787
00:42:02,407 --> 00:42:03,727
Speaker 1: It becomes a whole thing.

788
00:42:04,167 --> 00:42:06,967
Speaker 3: But then for me, the biggest thing is and this

789
00:42:07,047 --> 00:42:12,167
Speaker 3: is why I remember a recording a specific podcast episode

790
00:42:12,167 --> 00:42:14,647
Speaker 3: on this maybe three four years ago, on why you

791
00:42:14,687 --> 00:42:17,087
Speaker 3: don't have to speak up on every social issue, and

792
00:42:17,167 --> 00:42:22,247
Speaker 3: it all rings true today. This idea that every single

793
00:42:22,287 --> 00:42:25,167
Speaker 3: thing people are doing or thinking they are putting online

794
00:42:25,927 --> 00:42:28,127
Speaker 3: is something that we need to realize is.

795
00:42:28,407 --> 00:42:30,567
Speaker 1: Very, very very limiting.

796
00:42:31,007 --> 00:42:34,487
Speaker 3: In many ways, someone could have been marching for the

797
00:42:34,527 --> 00:42:37,927
Speaker 3: past ten months, you know, in their hometown, or sending

798
00:42:38,087 --> 00:42:43,647
Speaker 3: letters to their local MP or donating hundreds, maybe even thousands,

799
00:42:43,647 --> 00:42:47,367
Speaker 3: maybe even more. Some people are having real world conversations.

800
00:42:47,487 --> 00:42:50,527
Speaker 3: Some people are actually holding people who are being harmed

801
00:42:50,607 --> 00:42:53,527
Speaker 3: by this every single day. Some people are seeing what

802
00:42:53,567 --> 00:42:56,327
Speaker 3: they can do in their community. Some people are making

803
00:42:56,367 --> 00:42:59,127
Speaker 3: phone calls. Some people are dealing with another war happening

804
00:42:59,127 --> 00:43:02,127
Speaker 3: in their country, another reality we have to accept. And

805
00:43:02,167 --> 00:43:05,567
Speaker 3: again this is just opening up the nuance in the

806
00:43:05,607 --> 00:43:07,767
Speaker 3: grave for people to understand that things are not as

807
00:43:07,807 --> 00:43:10,847
Speaker 3: simple as oh, if this person posts, then that shows

808
00:43:10,887 --> 00:43:13,487
Speaker 3: that they care. That shows that they're doing something. Because

809
00:43:13,527 --> 00:43:16,447
Speaker 3: I could post an infographic from bed and not even

810
00:43:16,487 --> 00:43:18,687
Speaker 3: really care, but just post it to say that I've

811
00:43:18,727 --> 00:43:19,287
Speaker 3: done something.

812
00:43:20,047 --> 00:43:21,287
Speaker 1: I think it's such a shame.

813
00:43:21,527 --> 00:43:23,647
Speaker 3: It's such a shame that we have come to this

814
00:43:23,767 --> 00:43:27,447
Speaker 3: point where we believe that if someone doesn't post something

815
00:43:27,847 --> 00:43:30,247
Speaker 3: quite literally by the way, that something could be anything.

816
00:43:30,447 --> 00:43:32,327
Speaker 3: There's never any detail on what it could be. It

817
00:43:32,367 --> 00:43:35,487
Speaker 3: could be anything doesn't even have to actually be a

818
00:43:35,567 --> 00:43:39,687
Speaker 3: link that sends maybe something more tangible to where the

819
00:43:39,727 --> 00:43:42,407
Speaker 3: conflict is happening. It could be anything. It could be

820
00:43:42,487 --> 00:43:45,367
Speaker 3: a photo, it could be a slide, it could be

821
00:43:45,527 --> 00:43:51,247
Speaker 3: just one word. People prefer the performance more than whether

822
00:43:51,327 --> 00:43:56,127
Speaker 3: something is actually changing fundamentally, because I think we're in

823
00:43:56,247 --> 00:43:59,047
Speaker 3: such a trance when we're online that we don't even

824
00:43:59,207 --> 00:44:02,367
Speaker 3: think that people could be doing something else that isn't posting.

825
00:44:02,527 --> 00:44:05,047
Speaker 1: You know what's the reason for.

826
00:44:05,087 --> 00:44:07,807
Speaker 2: That, Because it's not everybody, but the people who speak

827
00:44:07,887 --> 00:44:12,327
Speaker 2: loudest online often around these things have become like vigilantes.

828
00:44:12,367 --> 00:44:16,727
Speaker 2: It's like they're self appointed sheriffs of the Internet, surveiling

829
00:44:17,007 --> 00:44:21,047
Speaker 2: what everyone else is posting and calling out people that

830
00:44:21,087 --> 00:44:23,847
Speaker 2: they think are posting not in the right amount or

831
00:44:23,847 --> 00:44:27,487
Speaker 2: not in the right way. Isn't narcissism? I mean, I

832
00:44:27,487 --> 00:44:29,647
Speaker 2: guess they think they're doing the right thing. Do they

833
00:44:29,687 --> 00:44:33,527
Speaker 2: actually think that what they're doing by centering themselves and

834
00:44:33,607 --> 00:44:38,127
Speaker 2: shouting at everybody else is helping or is it just

835
00:44:38,207 --> 00:44:41,487
Speaker 2: that they get sort of addicted to the attention or

836
00:44:41,527 --> 00:44:44,647
Speaker 2: the head rush? I mean, back in the day when

837
00:44:44,687 --> 00:44:47,647
Speaker 2: I used to be a lot more outraged online, there

838
00:44:47,727 --> 00:44:49,407
Speaker 2: is a bit of a head rush, as you spoke

839
00:44:49,447 --> 00:44:52,567
Speaker 2: about before, about when everyone agrees with you and you

840
00:44:52,607 --> 00:44:56,047
Speaker 2: get lots of likes and you go girl kinds of comments.

841
00:44:56,167 --> 00:45:00,327
Speaker 2: Is that why there's just this intolerance for nuance because

842
00:45:00,487 --> 00:45:02,327
Speaker 2: being extreme gets more collapse.

843
00:45:03,087 --> 00:45:06,087
Speaker 3: To me, I don't have one answer, but I think

844
00:45:06,207 --> 00:45:08,487
Speaker 3: it can be a combination of different things. I find

845
00:45:08,567 --> 00:45:11,727
Speaker 3: that a lot of the time, when we find it

846
00:45:11,847 --> 00:45:16,007
Speaker 3: so difficult to hold our own contradictions, we just won't

847
00:45:16,047 --> 00:45:18,687
Speaker 3: be able to hold other people's. That's just that's actually

848
00:45:18,927 --> 00:45:21,967
Speaker 3: just the reality of it. Because if I can't see

849
00:45:22,047 --> 00:45:28,567
Speaker 3: myself as both good and bad, as both manipulative but

850
00:45:28,647 --> 00:45:31,087
Speaker 3: also very thoughtful, but also very kind, but I can

851
00:45:31,087 --> 00:45:34,087
Speaker 3: also be very rageful, I can also be very impatient,

852
00:45:34,127 --> 00:45:36,407
Speaker 3: but I can also be very sweet, and I can

853
00:45:36,407 --> 00:45:39,247
Speaker 3: also be ground. If I can't see all of those

854
00:45:39,247 --> 00:45:42,767
Speaker 3: things about myself, and especially be able to name the

855
00:45:42,807 --> 00:45:45,967
Speaker 3: shadowy parts of myself, I will never be able to

856
00:45:46,007 --> 00:45:47,087
Speaker 3: do that about someone else.

857
00:45:47,167 --> 00:45:47,767
Speaker 1: I just won't.

858
00:45:48,207 --> 00:45:52,367
Speaker 3: And even worse, if I then encounter someone who's able

859
00:45:52,407 --> 00:45:56,167
Speaker 3: to hold those truths about themselves, they will always be

860
00:45:56,247 --> 00:45:59,087
Speaker 3: a trigger for me. So something that I always think

861
00:45:59,127 --> 00:46:01,527
Speaker 3: about it in the context of self censorship is that

862
00:46:02,087 --> 00:46:05,847
Speaker 3: when you become very well trained at censoring yourself, you

863
00:46:05,887 --> 00:46:09,527
Speaker 3: will find people that are not just uncensored to the extreme,

864
00:46:09,767 --> 00:46:12,447
Speaker 3: but people that allowed themselves to actually speak their minds,

865
00:46:12,527 --> 00:46:14,287
Speaker 3: or to ask questions or to say I don't agree

866
00:46:14,287 --> 00:46:16,327
Speaker 3: with that, or to say, I know everyone agrees with this,

867
00:46:16,447 --> 00:46:18,847
Speaker 3: but this is what I think you will feel that

868
00:46:18,927 --> 00:46:21,127
Speaker 3: it's actually a threat to your sense of self and

869
00:46:21,127 --> 00:46:26,127
Speaker 3: it's very illogical, but it's people feeling like your worldview

870
00:46:26,887 --> 00:46:30,247
Speaker 3: isn't actually just yours. It's now a threat on my

871
00:46:30,567 --> 00:46:33,247
Speaker 3: sense of self. So I have to do everything I

872
00:46:33,287 --> 00:46:36,167
Speaker 3: can to take it down and to somehow give you

873
00:46:36,287 --> 00:46:38,087
Speaker 3: mine so then I'm safe.

874
00:46:38,327 --> 00:46:40,687
Speaker 2: You're right. So when I was a couple of years ago,

875
00:46:40,727 --> 00:46:42,887
Speaker 2: I was diagnosed with ADHD and I wrote about it,

876
00:46:42,927 --> 00:46:47,007
Speaker 2: and I wrote about how there was nothing good about

877
00:46:47,007 --> 00:46:49,607
Speaker 2: it for me, like it had only made my life harder.

878
00:46:50,487 --> 00:46:57,167
Speaker 2: And there was huge pushback from the neurodivergent community saying,

879
00:46:57,247 --> 00:46:59,687
Speaker 2: you can't say, how very dare you say that? You're

880
00:46:59,727 --> 00:47:01,447
Speaker 2: not allowed to say that. You've got to be a

881
00:47:01,567 --> 00:47:04,127
Speaker 2: role model for young people. And of course there were

882
00:47:04,167 --> 00:47:07,327
Speaker 2: other people saying, oh, thank god, I'm so glad you've

883
00:47:07,327 --> 00:47:08,847
Speaker 2: said it, because I said, I don't feel like it's

884
00:47:08,887 --> 00:47:11,847
Speaker 2: my souper power. Maybe some people feel like it's their superpower.

885
00:47:12,167 --> 00:47:14,207
Speaker 2: I don't feel like it's my superpower. I feel like

886
00:47:14,247 --> 00:47:16,007
Speaker 2: it's made my life harder. I wish I could give

887
00:47:16,007 --> 00:47:19,527
Speaker 2: it back, but I had strayed from the party line

888
00:47:20,047 --> 00:47:23,847
Speaker 2: and this orthodoxy of no, you can only.

889
00:47:23,647 --> 00:47:26,047
Speaker 1: Be positive about it, right.

890
00:47:26,007 --> 00:47:28,167
Speaker 2: And I was. I agree. I just went, well, no,

891
00:47:28,327 --> 00:47:30,567
Speaker 2: forget it, like I'm not interested in that.

892
00:47:30,567 --> 00:47:35,487
Speaker 1: That's that's exactly it. It's like it's group think essentially.

893
00:47:35,607 --> 00:47:38,407
Speaker 3: Yeah, this I did that we only have safety if

894
00:47:38,447 --> 00:47:42,087
Speaker 3: we all think the same way, and anything that gets

895
00:47:42,127 --> 00:47:44,687
Speaker 3: in that opposes that is a threat and we have

896
00:47:44,767 --> 00:47:47,607
Speaker 3: to get rid of it.

897
00:47:47,607 --> 00:47:50,487
Speaker 2: It feels like a threat, right, because what people, I

898
00:47:50,527 --> 00:47:52,807
Speaker 2: think often miss is that the people who are most

899
00:47:52,967 --> 00:47:55,487
Speaker 2: likely to cancel you, or who are most likely to

900
00:47:55,527 --> 00:47:57,927
Speaker 2: call you out or pile on you or whatever, are

901
00:47:57,967 --> 00:48:01,607
Speaker 2: people who you are ideologically very similar with. They're part

902
00:48:01,687 --> 00:48:05,687
Speaker 2: of a people that you agree with most things. Yes,

903
00:48:05,887 --> 00:48:08,207
Speaker 2: Whereas I once spoke to someone who is like a

904
00:48:08,687 --> 00:48:12,447
Speaker 2: very right wing commentator and I was asking her, oh,

905
00:48:12,487 --> 00:48:14,647
Speaker 2: do you get a whole lot of shit from these

906
00:48:14,647 --> 00:48:16,967
Speaker 2: particular people on the left who like to cancel me?

907
00:48:17,327 --> 00:48:20,047
Speaker 2: And she's like, oh, no, they completely ignore me. I

908
00:48:20,167 --> 00:48:23,087
Speaker 2: get it from the right. So she got canceled from

909
00:48:23,087 --> 00:48:25,447
Speaker 2: the right, and the right leaves me alone. I get

910
00:48:25,487 --> 00:48:29,687
Speaker 2: canceled from the left. Gosh, Why is that? Why do

911
00:48:29,767 --> 00:48:32,927
Speaker 2: we cancel people that are more likely to cancel people

912
00:48:32,927 --> 00:48:34,207
Speaker 2: that are most like us.

913
00:48:34,607 --> 00:48:38,607
Speaker 3: It's like, to me, that's just tribalism. I always laugh

914
00:48:38,647 --> 00:48:41,687
Speaker 3: at how we think. Because we wear clothes now and

915
00:48:41,767 --> 00:48:44,567
Speaker 3: we have all of this technology whatever, we can override

916
00:48:44,607 --> 00:48:47,887
Speaker 3: our primal nature, but it's never going to go anywhere,

917
00:48:47,927 --> 00:48:51,767
Speaker 3: and we are tribal creatures. There was definitely a point

918
00:48:51,807 --> 00:48:54,807
Speaker 3: in time where if you stray from the tribe, whether

919
00:48:54,847 --> 00:48:59,047
Speaker 3: it's through actual action or thought, there's danger. There's danger

920
00:48:59,087 --> 00:49:01,607
Speaker 3: if you are cast out by the tribe, you will

921
00:49:01,607 --> 00:49:04,567
Speaker 3: be dead, you know, within a few hours. So I

922
00:49:04,607 --> 00:49:07,647
Speaker 3: think we still have that biological wiring, and I write

923
00:49:07,727 --> 00:49:10,767
Speaker 3: about it in the third perspective. We need to understand

924
00:49:10,767 --> 00:49:13,327
Speaker 3: our biology and our human nature so we can see

925
00:49:13,327 --> 00:49:17,407
Speaker 3: it at play, because we will always have that thing

926
00:49:17,567 --> 00:49:21,447
Speaker 3: where our safety is determined by the people around us.

927
00:49:22,047 --> 00:49:25,967
Speaker 3: And that also means intellectual safety. Right. I can't feel

928
00:49:26,007 --> 00:49:27,727
Speaker 3: that safe if I don't know where to place you.

929
00:49:27,847 --> 00:49:32,007
Speaker 3: That's why I think identity has its uses, because it's

930
00:49:32,007 --> 00:49:35,047
Speaker 3: not about getting rid of identity completely. It just allows

931
00:49:35,087 --> 00:49:37,727
Speaker 3: us for us to understand each other. Even someone saying

932
00:49:37,767 --> 00:49:40,247
Speaker 3: I'm British I'm Zimbabwe, I'm Australian, I'm this, and that

933
00:49:40,327 --> 00:49:42,767
Speaker 3: it gives you an idea, and that gives you a

934
00:49:42,807 --> 00:49:43,527
Speaker 3: bit of safety.

935
00:49:43,767 --> 00:49:45,007
Speaker 1: Whereas when you don't know.

936
00:49:45,087 --> 00:49:48,287
Speaker 3: Someone's name, or their age, or where they're from or

937
00:49:48,287 --> 00:49:50,927
Speaker 3: who they actually are, How can I trust you when

938
00:49:50,927 --> 00:49:53,207
Speaker 3: I don't actually know you? So we take that a

939
00:49:53,247 --> 00:49:56,767
Speaker 3: step further with ideology, How can I trust you when

940
00:49:56,807 --> 00:50:01,167
Speaker 3: you don't think and feel exactly like me? So where

941
00:50:01,207 --> 00:50:04,647
Speaker 3: I have a lot of empathy and compassion actually for

942
00:50:05,127 --> 00:50:08,847
Speaker 3: all of this is that asking people to face their

943
00:50:08,847 --> 00:50:12,967
Speaker 3: discus when they're confronted with a different worldview, etc. It's

944
00:50:13,007 --> 00:50:16,127
Speaker 3: a very unnatural thing. It's a very unnatural thing to

945
00:50:16,207 --> 00:50:20,127
Speaker 3: ask someone to hold that contradiction and for it to

946
00:50:20,127 --> 00:50:23,647
Speaker 3: not feel completely threatening. But that is our work to

947
00:50:23,727 --> 00:50:27,727
Speaker 3: do as people, to surround ourselves not to an extreme,

948
00:50:27,807 --> 00:50:29,607
Speaker 3: because this is why people have to say, well, so

949
00:50:29,687 --> 00:50:32,007
Speaker 3: what I should just be friends with biggots and white supremacy?

950
00:50:32,047 --> 00:50:34,967
Speaker 3: Why do we have to go to those extremes. There

951
00:50:34,967 --> 00:50:37,887
Speaker 3: are many things in which you disagree with someone else on,

952
00:50:38,487 --> 00:50:41,447
Speaker 3: but we're building such a level of intolerance where even

953
00:50:41,527 --> 00:50:45,807
Speaker 3: with the most basic things people can't deal with it anymore.

954
00:50:46,167 --> 00:50:48,487
Speaker 3: You know that's so true.

955
00:50:49,007 --> 00:50:53,527
Speaker 2: Just finally, Africa, your wonderful book. The third perspective, the

956
00:50:53,567 --> 00:50:57,727
Speaker 2: subtitle is Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. I

957
00:50:57,767 --> 00:51:00,247
Speaker 2: want to ask you about intolerance and why you think

958
00:51:00,287 --> 00:51:02,807
Speaker 2: we've become so intolerant, because I've worked in media for

959
00:51:02,847 --> 00:51:06,407
Speaker 2: thirty years and it used to be just understood that

960
00:51:06,527 --> 00:51:10,167
Speaker 2: you could disagree with someone right, agree with your opinion.

961
00:51:10,207 --> 00:51:14,367
Speaker 2: I don't agree with that story you published. Now people

962
00:51:14,407 --> 00:51:18,087
Speaker 2: have become so intolerant. It's I disagree with your opinion.

963
00:51:19,087 --> 00:51:23,207
Speaker 2: I'm unfollowing you, I am blocking you, or I don't

964
00:51:23,287 --> 00:51:26,687
Speaker 2: like that story. You need to take it down. I

965
00:51:26,727 --> 00:51:29,287
Speaker 2: can't handle that it even exists in the world.

966
00:51:30,367 --> 00:51:31,167
Speaker 1: What's that about?

967
00:51:31,207 --> 00:51:35,407
Speaker 2: Why have we become so completely intolerant? Gosh?

968
00:51:35,767 --> 00:51:39,447
Speaker 3: So I think that's a big question, and I'm sure

969
00:51:39,447 --> 00:51:41,287
Speaker 3: there's a big answer to it. But again, I think

970
00:51:41,367 --> 00:51:43,247
Speaker 3: there's a lot of different things, but I like to

971
00:51:43,447 --> 00:51:46,367
Speaker 3: kind of bring it back to the self, and it's

972
00:51:46,407 --> 00:51:48,047
Speaker 3: what I do in the book as well, because I

973
00:51:48,047 --> 00:51:50,447
Speaker 3: think these things can feel so big, whether we're talking

974
00:51:50,447 --> 00:51:56,167
Speaker 3: about cancel culture, identity, politics, the politicization of absolutely every

975
00:51:56,247 --> 00:51:59,647
Speaker 3: single thing, even your food choices. It's political in some way,

976
00:51:59,767 --> 00:52:02,727
Speaker 3: even what you wear on your body, it's political? Is

977
00:52:02,767 --> 00:52:06,167
Speaker 3: it fast fashion? Is it you know, independent brands? Who

978
00:52:06,247 --> 00:52:10,207
Speaker 3: has more money to everything is political? But I think,

979
00:52:10,247 --> 00:52:13,567
Speaker 3: to me, the intolerance, there's kind of something and I

980
00:52:13,567 --> 00:52:16,007
Speaker 3: wonder what you think, but there's something sort of childlike

981
00:52:16,127 --> 00:52:19,287
Speaker 3: about it that everything is sort of me me, me.

982
00:52:19,487 --> 00:52:23,927
Speaker 3: There's been like an infantilization of people. People treating themselves

983
00:52:23,967 --> 00:52:26,767
Speaker 3: like sort of infants that need to be wrapped in

984
00:52:26,847 --> 00:52:30,007
Speaker 3: cotton wool, you know, in case something rubs onto them.

985
00:52:30,687 --> 00:52:34,207
Speaker 3: So I find that a way that I'm able to

986
00:52:34,247 --> 00:52:36,607
Speaker 3: sort of deal with this without it feeling so big

987
00:52:36,807 --> 00:52:39,887
Speaker 3: is to realize that I'm kind of dealing with sort

988
00:52:39,927 --> 00:52:42,767
Speaker 3: of infants almost. So I'm not going to let them

989
00:52:42,807 --> 00:52:44,607
Speaker 3: run the show. I'm not going to let them tell

990
00:52:44,647 --> 00:52:46,407
Speaker 3: me what I can say and not say. I'm not

991
00:52:46,447 --> 00:52:49,087
Speaker 3: going to allow for them to say you need to

992
00:52:49,127 --> 00:52:51,687
Speaker 3: behave in this way when a lot of the time

993
00:52:52,407 --> 00:52:55,167
Speaker 3: it's people that are so out of control in their

994
00:52:55,207 --> 00:52:58,767
Speaker 3: personal lives, but then they get this sense of control online.

995
00:52:58,807 --> 00:53:01,127
Speaker 1: Now they tell everyone else what to do.

996
00:53:01,647 --> 00:53:04,487
Speaker 3: When you can barely have a conversation with your own family,

997
00:53:04,647 --> 00:53:07,207
Speaker 3: when you can barely have a conversation with your partner

998
00:53:07,327 --> 00:53:09,687
Speaker 3: or your sibling. So I like to think of it

999
00:53:09,727 --> 00:53:13,207
Speaker 3: in that way, that it's people trying to gain a

1000
00:53:13,247 --> 00:53:15,767
Speaker 3: sense of control they don't have in their own lives.

1001
00:53:15,767 --> 00:53:17,407
Speaker 3: So there's something quite childlike.

1002
00:53:17,927 --> 00:53:18,687
Speaker 1: It's like a toddle.

1003
00:53:18,807 --> 00:53:21,327
Speaker 2: That makes so much sense now I understand a couple

1004
00:53:21,367 --> 00:53:23,607
Speaker 2: of people so much better. It's like a toddler stamping their.

1005
00:53:23,487 --> 00:53:27,407
Speaker 3: Foot, absolutely absolutely, And I think you have to think

1006
00:53:27,447 --> 00:53:29,207
Speaker 3: about it in that way, as in, how would you

1007
00:53:29,287 --> 00:53:31,847
Speaker 3: respond to a toddler who is stamping their foot and

1008
00:53:31,927 --> 00:53:34,287
Speaker 3: saying post this and do that and share this.

1009
00:53:34,407 --> 00:53:36,367
Speaker 1: Why have you done that? It's insane.

1010
00:53:36,487 --> 00:53:40,407
Speaker 2: Yes, you wouldn't be scared of them, you wouldn't listen

1011
00:53:40,487 --> 00:53:40,847
Speaker 2: to them.

1012
00:53:40,927 --> 00:53:44,127
Speaker 3: So I think we need to sort of understand that

1013
00:53:44,167 --> 00:53:47,007
Speaker 3: we're dealing with something a little bit unnatural here in

1014
00:53:47,167 --> 00:53:49,647
Speaker 3: needing to lean in instead of leaning out of the

1015
00:53:49,687 --> 00:53:52,847
Speaker 3: discomfort of being confronted with a different worldview or a

1016
00:53:52,887 --> 00:53:56,127
Speaker 3: friend of yours changing their mind you know about something,

1017
00:53:56,607 --> 00:53:58,207
Speaker 3: or saying, you know what, I used to agree with this,

1018
00:53:58,287 --> 00:54:00,967
Speaker 3: but I don't actually agree with that so much anymore,

1019
00:54:01,007 --> 00:54:03,447
Speaker 3: And for you to feel like you can still love

1020
00:54:03,527 --> 00:54:06,567
Speaker 3: and appreciate that person and not apply so much meaning

1021
00:54:06,647 --> 00:54:08,847
Speaker 3: to it, So I think we've kind of lost this

1022
00:54:08,887 --> 00:54:12,727
Speaker 3: ability to be able to hold contradiction. But I do

1023
00:54:12,887 --> 00:54:16,807
Speaker 3: think it starts with ourselves. Otherwise, I promise you, as

1024
00:54:16,887 --> 00:54:18,527
Speaker 3: much as you would like to think you'll be able

1025
00:54:18,567 --> 00:54:20,327
Speaker 3: to do it, you will never be able to hold

1026
00:54:20,327 --> 00:54:22,687
Speaker 3: contradiction in someone else if you can't do it for you.

1027
00:54:27,047 --> 00:54:32,487
Speaker 2: That makes so much sense, the idea of holding contradiction

1028
00:54:33,007 --> 00:54:37,247
Speaker 2: in yourself and being open to the idea of changing

1029
00:54:37,287 --> 00:54:42,607
Speaker 2: your mind or having nuanced views about things because most

1030
00:54:42,607 --> 00:54:46,127
Speaker 2: of our views aren't completely polarized, and listening to Africa's

1031
00:54:46,167 --> 00:54:49,647
Speaker 2: story and her wisdom, I can really understand how she's

1032
00:54:49,687 --> 00:54:54,367
Speaker 2: become unafraid of cancelation and the online mob, especially through

1033
00:54:54,407 --> 00:54:59,007
Speaker 2: that framework of someone behaving a bit like a toddler.

1034
00:54:59,287 --> 00:55:02,727
Speaker 2: And that's not to be trite, because I do believe

1035
00:55:02,727 --> 00:55:05,247
Speaker 2: that everybody thinks that they're doing the right thing. They

1036
00:55:05,287 --> 00:55:08,207
Speaker 2: honestly do believe. I have to think this right. I

1037
00:55:08,287 --> 00:55:11,647
Speaker 2: have to believe that they have good intentions if I

1038
00:55:11,727 --> 00:55:15,567
Speaker 2: want that same consideration given back to me every time

1039
00:55:15,607 --> 00:55:17,647
Speaker 2: I make a mistake or do something that people don't

1040
00:55:17,687 --> 00:55:20,487
Speaker 2: agree with. But I think what's important is to pause

1041
00:55:20,487 --> 00:55:23,447
Speaker 2: and ask yourself, what do we actually owe the Internet?

1042
00:55:23,887 --> 00:55:26,247
Speaker 2: What do we owe social media? What do we owe

1043
00:55:26,647 --> 00:55:29,927
Speaker 2: to the strangers who follow us? Is it the only place,

1044
00:55:30,367 --> 00:55:33,367
Speaker 2: or even the right place to engage in really complex

1045
00:55:33,407 --> 00:55:38,487
Speaker 2: ideas and situations that require critical thinking and nuance and

1046
00:55:38,527 --> 00:55:43,567
Speaker 2: where we might change our mind. The truth is, you

1047
00:55:43,647 --> 00:55:47,087
Speaker 2: don't owe the Internet anything. What we do in our

1048
00:55:47,127 --> 00:55:50,967
Speaker 2: actual lives, what we stand for in our communities and homes,

1049
00:55:51,567 --> 00:55:55,727
Speaker 2: in our workplaces, and in our hearts, in our wider society,

1050
00:55:55,847 --> 00:55:58,607
Speaker 2: that is always going to matter more than what you

1051
00:55:58,687 --> 00:56:02,447
Speaker 2: do or don't post to the world. I don't post

1052
00:56:02,487 --> 00:56:04,727
Speaker 2: about my kids online. Do you think that means I

1053
00:56:04,727 --> 00:56:07,687
Speaker 2: don't care about them? And, as Africa says, in the

1054
00:56:07,727 --> 00:56:10,927
Speaker 2: eyes of the internet, never get it right. So maybe

1055
00:56:10,967 --> 00:56:14,527
Speaker 2: the best way to protect ourselves and each other is

1056
00:56:14,607 --> 00:56:18,087
Speaker 2: to live our core values more than we post about

1057
00:56:18,087 --> 00:56:21,087
Speaker 2: what we want people to think our core values are

1058
00:56:21,447 --> 00:56:24,967
Speaker 2: or what we feel that their core values and their

1059
00:56:25,007 --> 00:56:29,327
Speaker 2: posts should be. And look, I feel like I've said

1060
00:56:29,327 --> 00:56:31,287
Speaker 2: that a lot in this podcast. I'll be honest with you,

1061
00:56:31,607 --> 00:56:33,847
Speaker 2: there were moments I was really afraid to even have

1062
00:56:33,927 --> 00:56:37,727
Speaker 2: this conversation with Africa or share my own experiences and

1063
00:56:37,847 --> 00:56:41,607
Speaker 2: ask my own questions, because well, you know, I know

1064
00:56:41,647 --> 00:56:44,847
Speaker 2: what cancelation feels like, and it is life changing, not

1065
00:56:44,967 --> 00:56:47,847
Speaker 2: the good kind of life changing. And even saying that,

1066
00:56:48,047 --> 00:56:50,367
Speaker 2: I'm scared that people will try to weaponize those words

1067
00:56:50,767 --> 00:56:54,047
Speaker 2: to cancel me. But you know what, I can't let

1068
00:56:54,047 --> 00:56:55,847
Speaker 2: that fear run my life and I can't let it

1069
00:56:55,967 --> 00:56:58,367
Speaker 2: determine the kind of conversations that I want to bring

1070
00:56:58,407 --> 00:57:01,887
Speaker 2: you here on No Filter. I want No Filter to

1071
00:57:01,967 --> 00:57:04,087
Speaker 2: be a place where you can hear from people you

1072
00:57:04,167 --> 00:57:08,287
Speaker 2: might disagree with, or feel your own positions challenged a bit,

1073
00:57:08,407 --> 00:57:12,287
Speaker 2: and remember how to actually have conversations in a good

1074
00:57:12,367 --> 00:57:15,807
Speaker 2: faith way. And that's what this show is about. And

1075
00:57:15,887 --> 00:57:19,087
Speaker 2: as you heard, that is certainly what Africa is about.

1076
00:57:19,247 --> 00:57:21,887
Speaker 2: What strikes me most about her, I mean all the things,

1077
00:57:22,487 --> 00:57:26,527
Speaker 2: but it's her lack of righteousness. It is her openness,

1078
00:57:26,807 --> 00:57:30,527
Speaker 2: her ability to listen, and her willingness to embrace nuance,

1079
00:57:31,047 --> 00:57:35,687
Speaker 2: an uncertainty and contradiction. You probably want more of Africa.

1080
00:57:36,087 --> 00:57:39,327
Speaker 2: Who wouldn't Lucky for you. She's a consultant, a coach,

1081
00:57:39,447 --> 00:57:43,487
Speaker 2: a strategist, a speaker. She's magnificent on social media, and

1082
00:57:43,527 --> 00:57:45,567
Speaker 2: we will pop all the links that you need to

1083
00:57:45,647 --> 00:57:48,727
Speaker 2: become the Africa Brooks super fan that you should be

1084
00:57:49,207 --> 00:57:51,567
Speaker 2: and like we all are here at No Filter, will

1085
00:57:51,567 --> 00:57:54,647
Speaker 2: pop them in the show notes. The executive producer of

1086
00:57:54,687 --> 00:57:57,487
Speaker 2: No Filter is Naima Brown. Give her a big, hard,

1087
00:57:57,527 --> 00:58:01,327
Speaker 2: thorny conversation any day over small talk. Our audio producer

1088
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Speaker 2: is Tom Lyon. He's learning how to meditate and will

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Speaker 2: not engage in online drama. And I'm mea friedman. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to have a big cup of tea and a

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Speaker 2: very big lie down. I'm your host. Be kind to

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Speaker 2: each other. Think twice before you jump into a pylon.

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Speaker 2: There's a real person on the bottom of it. Cancel

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Speaker 2: reservations and meetings, not people love you. See you next week.