1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,727 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:23,807 --> 00:00:26,767 Speaker 2: MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about. 5 00:00:26,847 --> 00:00:30,407 Speaker 2: On Monday, the third of June. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm. 6 00:00:30,207 --> 00:00:33,847 Speaker 3: MEA Friedman and I'm Jemma Bath filling in for Jesse Stevens. 7 00:00:33,927 --> 00:00:36,087 Speaker 4: I usually host one of our other podcasts. 8 00:00:35,727 --> 00:00:39,007 Speaker 2: Through Crime Conversations. Welcome Jane you, thanks for having me. 9 00:00:39,087 --> 00:00:40,767 Speaker 2: We're going to be hearing you a few times while 10 00:00:40,847 --> 00:00:45,287 Speaker 2: Jesse's away. Yes on the show today, the uninvited guests 11 00:00:45,327 --> 00:00:46,847 Speaker 2: at Britney Higgins's. 12 00:00:46,367 --> 00:00:48,967 Speaker 5: Wedding were the paparazzi helicopters. 13 00:00:49,407 --> 00:00:53,007 Speaker 2: Also why you're seeing embarrassing teen photos of very famous 14 00:00:53,007 --> 00:00:56,487 Speaker 2: Australians all over your Instagram and why we love women 15 00:00:56,527 --> 00:00:58,207 Speaker 2: supporting women until that. 16 00:00:58,207 --> 00:01:02,527 Speaker 5: Woman is Angelina Jolie. But first, mea Friedman. In case 17 00:01:02,567 --> 00:01:04,647 Speaker 5: you missed it, on this podcast, we like to stay 18 00:01:04,687 --> 00:01:07,047 Speaker 5: across what's happening with very old men, and in the 19 00:01:07,087 --> 00:01:09,967 Speaker 5: past few days there is some exciting breaking old news, 20 00:01:10,367 --> 00:01:12,487 Speaker 5: both happy and sad for the old men in question. 21 00:01:12,687 --> 00:01:15,287 Speaker 5: First of all, ninety three year old Rupert Murdoch got 22 00:01:15,287 --> 00:01:18,407 Speaker 5: married for the fifth time, and seventy seven year old 23 00:01:18,447 --> 00:01:21,767 Speaker 5: Donald Trump is officially a criminal, having been found guilty 24 00:01:22,167 --> 00:01:24,487 Speaker 5: on all thirty four charges in one of several criminal 25 00:01:24,487 --> 00:01:27,327 Speaker 5: cases that could send him to prison. Thank God, Jemma 26 00:01:27,367 --> 00:01:29,567 Speaker 5: Barth is here to break this down, because jam you 27 00:01:29,607 --> 00:01:32,847 Speaker 5: are also the news editor at Mama Mia. Who is 28 00:01:32,967 --> 00:01:35,567 Speaker 5: the lucky lady who will get to be stepmother to 29 00:01:35,727 --> 00:01:39,567 Speaker 5: children almost her own age? And will Donald Trump go 30 00:01:39,607 --> 00:01:41,847 Speaker 5: to jail? Please God say yes? And can he still 31 00:01:41,847 --> 00:01:43,407 Speaker 5: become president? Please God say no. 32 00:01:43,687 --> 00:01:47,087 Speaker 3: Elena Zukhova is the lucky lady who has married into 33 00:01:47,087 --> 00:01:49,447 Speaker 3: the Murdoch family. She is sixty seven. She is a 34 00:01:49,487 --> 00:01:54,287 Speaker 3: retired Russian molecular biologist, which I think is pretty damn cool. 35 00:01:54,287 --> 00:01:57,007 Speaker 2: Well, that's impressive, but I'm not buying that she's lucky 36 00:01:57,007 --> 00:02:01,207 Speaker 2: to be marrying into the has nobody watched succession around 37 00:02:01,247 --> 00:02:01,647 Speaker 2: this date. 38 00:02:02,367 --> 00:02:04,687 Speaker 3: She met Murdoch at a party hosted by one of 39 00:02:04,767 --> 00:02:08,167 Speaker 3: his ex wives and they've been together since last year, 40 00:02:08,287 --> 00:02:10,367 Speaker 3: short engagement, happily married. 41 00:02:10,607 --> 00:02:12,687 Speaker 5: Why does he have a better social life than me? 42 00:02:12,807 --> 00:02:15,087 Speaker 5: And he's ninety three? I can't remember the last time 43 00:02:15,087 --> 00:02:17,407 Speaker 5: I went to a party, i'd met someone new and excited. 44 00:02:17,407 --> 00:02:18,607 Speaker 5: I met a new spouse. 45 00:02:18,647 --> 00:02:20,967 Speaker 2: The number one question or people always ask is what's 46 00:02:21,007 --> 00:02:23,487 Speaker 2: with the weddings? Group like, we're all very happy that 47 00:02:23,567 --> 00:02:25,767 Speaker 2: you still have a vital and interesting love life. 48 00:02:26,127 --> 00:02:26,807 Speaker 5: We're fine with. 49 00:02:26,767 --> 00:02:28,407 Speaker 4: That, but what's with the weddings? 50 00:02:28,447 --> 00:02:31,207 Speaker 2: The kids must be all the time just being like, dad, 51 00:02:31,527 --> 00:02:32,727 Speaker 2: do you have to put a ring on it? 52 00:02:32,767 --> 00:02:35,687 Speaker 5: Don't you think? I was quite shocked by the photos 53 00:02:35,687 --> 00:02:38,047 Speaker 5: in how old he looked. He went through a phase 54 00:02:38,087 --> 00:02:41,127 Speaker 5: when a couple of wives ago with Wendy Deng where 55 00:02:41,567 --> 00:02:45,047 Speaker 5: she made him dye his hair like mahogany, that funny 56 00:02:45,047 --> 00:02:47,887 Speaker 5: color that men dye their hair sometimes a hole. You 57 00:02:47,927 --> 00:02:50,687 Speaker 5: were the one that suggested a few wives ago also 58 00:02:50,927 --> 00:02:53,487 Speaker 5: that the reason he keeps getting engaged and getting married 59 00:02:53,687 --> 00:02:57,967 Speaker 5: is because it means that you can put really clear 60 00:02:58,007 --> 00:03:01,127 Speaker 5: parameters around the money. So no doubt there's a strict 61 00:03:01,127 --> 00:03:04,247 Speaker 5: prenuptial whereas if he's just you know, having one night 62 00:03:04,287 --> 00:03:08,807 Speaker 5: stands and having a complication situationship, it can get very 63 00:03:08,807 --> 00:03:10,207 Speaker 5: complicated financially. 64 00:03:10,287 --> 00:03:12,207 Speaker 2: I think that's probably exactly it, and it would be 65 00:03:12,287 --> 00:03:13,927 Speaker 2: keeping lawyers very busy. 66 00:03:14,007 --> 00:03:15,287 Speaker 1: I just think the man likes a party. 67 00:03:15,367 --> 00:03:17,807 Speaker 5: He loves love guys, he loves love. What about that 68 00:03:17,847 --> 00:03:19,647 Speaker 5: Trump man? H Trump? 69 00:03:19,767 --> 00:03:23,607 Speaker 3: Okay, so last week we found out that Trump was 70 00:03:23,647 --> 00:03:27,167 Speaker 3: guilty of thirty four counts of so many, so many 71 00:03:27,207 --> 00:03:30,567 Speaker 3: counts of falsifying business records. 72 00:03:30,687 --> 00:03:31,847 Speaker 1: What that actually means. 73 00:03:31,687 --> 00:03:35,287 Speaker 4: Is he covered up the affair he had. 74 00:03:35,087 --> 00:03:37,607 Speaker 3: With Stormy Daniels. It wasn't that he had an affair. 75 00:03:37,647 --> 00:03:40,447 Speaker 3: It wasn't that he gave her hush money. It was 76 00:03:40,487 --> 00:03:43,647 Speaker 3: the fact that he hid the hush money and falsified records. 77 00:03:43,647 --> 00:03:45,727 Speaker 2: We had an affair, paid her off to be quiet, 78 00:03:45,767 --> 00:03:46,887 Speaker 2: and then tried to cover it up. 79 00:03:46,927 --> 00:03:48,447 Speaker 3: And then it was to cover up that got him 80 00:03:48,607 --> 00:03:51,007 Speaker 3: exactly because he only paid her off when he was 81 00:03:51,087 --> 00:03:54,607 Speaker 3: running for president. It's not like after they slept together. 82 00:03:55,127 --> 00:03:58,087 Speaker 3: If your eyes are glazing about all these court cases 83 00:03:58,127 --> 00:04:01,407 Speaker 3: and convictions and charges, the other time he was found 84 00:04:01,407 --> 00:04:04,767 Speaker 3: guilty was a few months ago, and that was in 85 00:04:04,807 --> 00:04:08,687 Speaker 3: a case about being a rapist, a civil case brought 86 00:04:08,767 --> 00:04:12,607 Speaker 3: by Jen Carroll, who she says Trump raped. 87 00:04:12,247 --> 00:04:15,247 Speaker 5: Her in a change room at Bergdoff's. I think it was. 88 00:04:15,687 --> 00:04:18,767 Speaker 3: Many years ago. So it's quite interesting when you think 89 00:04:18,807 --> 00:04:22,007 Speaker 3: about of all the things he's done wrong. The two 90 00:04:22,047 --> 00:04:26,047 Speaker 3: cases where he's been convicted, Stormy Daniels and Agene Carroll, 91 00:04:26,247 --> 00:04:29,447 Speaker 3: Like it's two women who have I would love to 92 00:04:29,447 --> 00:04:30,847 Speaker 3: say brought him down, But he's not going to go 93 00:04:30,967 --> 00:04:32,967 Speaker 3: Is he going to go to jail? No, I mean 94 00:04:33,087 --> 00:04:35,847 Speaker 3: they're saying he could. With each count, you can face 95 00:04:35,887 --> 00:04:38,207 Speaker 3: up to four years in prison. I highly doubt that's 96 00:04:38,247 --> 00:04:38,887 Speaker 3: going to happen. 97 00:04:39,007 --> 00:04:41,127 Speaker 2: Everybody says it's not there, so that if he wasn't 98 00:04:41,167 --> 00:04:43,247 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, he wouldn't be going to jail because it's, 99 00:04:43,287 --> 00:04:45,767 Speaker 2: you know, it's his first conviction. Ironic as that might seem. 100 00:04:46,047 --> 00:04:47,527 Speaker 2: He's got the best lawyers in the world. It's a 101 00:04:47,567 --> 00:04:50,087 Speaker 2: nonviolent offense. He's not going to go to jail. And 102 00:04:50,247 --> 00:04:53,407 Speaker 2: disappointingly because on Friday when this news came through, for 103 00:04:53,447 --> 00:04:56,207 Speaker 2: a while there was this sort of euphoria almost for 104 00:04:56,207 --> 00:04:56,887 Speaker 2: a moment. 105 00:04:56,647 --> 00:04:58,767 Speaker 5: Of like ding Dong l Witch's day, guilty. Guilty. 106 00:04:58,807 --> 00:05:02,447 Speaker 2: There's never been a convicted felon running for president before. 107 00:05:03,007 --> 00:05:05,687 Speaker 2: But as has been shown in the days since, I mean, 108 00:05:05,727 --> 00:05:09,447 Speaker 2: Trump always overturns political norms, like he can prove a 109 00:05:09,487 --> 00:05:12,127 Speaker 2: thing wrong, and his popularity is in fact searched and 110 00:05:12,167 --> 00:05:13,807 Speaker 2: so he probably is not going to prison and is 111 00:05:13,847 --> 00:05:15,327 Speaker 2: still going to run, and he probably will win. 112 00:05:15,447 --> 00:05:17,247 Speaker 3: And I in fact think that if he went to prison, 113 00:05:17,447 --> 00:05:19,727 Speaker 3: his followers would quite like that because it would make 114 00:05:19,807 --> 00:05:20,687 Speaker 3: him look really good in there. 115 00:05:20,727 --> 00:05:23,367 Speaker 2: Off well, it buys into the conspiracy theory. So he 116 00:05:23,487 --> 00:05:24,287 Speaker 2: says it's a fix. 117 00:05:24,607 --> 00:05:28,727 Speaker 6: This was a disgrace. This was a rigged trial by 118 00:05:28,727 --> 00:05:33,327 Speaker 6: a conflicted judge who was corrupted. There's a riged trial 119 00:05:33,367 --> 00:05:37,567 Speaker 6: and disgrace. They wouldn't give us a venue change. We 120 00:05:37,567 --> 00:05:42,647 Speaker 6: were at five percent or six percent in this district, 121 00:05:42,687 --> 00:05:43,367 Speaker 6: in this area. 122 00:05:44,447 --> 00:05:45,287 Speaker 2: This was a. 123 00:05:45,207 --> 00:05:49,367 Speaker 6: Rigged, disgraceful trial. That the real verdict is going to 124 00:05:49,407 --> 00:05:53,727 Speaker 6: be November fifth by the people, and they know what 125 00:05:53,847 --> 00:05:56,127 Speaker 6: happened here, and everybody knows what happened here. 126 00:05:56,647 --> 00:05:59,727 Speaker 2: It plays very clearly into the people who believe that 127 00:05:59,807 --> 00:06:02,407 Speaker 2: this is all part of a conspiracy claim. 128 00:06:02,407 --> 00:06:04,487 Speaker 5: If you from the Quickie did a brilliant episode on 129 00:06:04,527 --> 00:06:06,647 Speaker 5: the Trump verdict, you can listen to that via the 130 00:06:06,687 --> 00:06:07,687 Speaker 5: link in the show notes. 131 00:06:10,847 --> 00:06:12,447 Speaker 1: There was another wedding over the weekend. 132 00:06:12,647 --> 00:06:15,247 Speaker 3: Britney Higgins got married on the Gold Coast to her 133 00:06:15,327 --> 00:06:19,847 Speaker 3: partner David Schiraz. She wore ature gown by an Australian designer. 134 00:06:20,287 --> 00:06:23,007 Speaker 3: She said, I do at a loveliest station in the 135 00:06:23,007 --> 00:06:26,327 Speaker 3: Corimbin Valley. She had everything you can imagine at a 136 00:06:26,367 --> 00:06:32,087 Speaker 3: beautiful Australian wedding except perhaps paparazzi photos. She basically got 137 00:06:32,087 --> 00:06:35,887 Speaker 3: the celebrity treatment. There were photos in the papers over 138 00:06:35,927 --> 00:06:40,407 Speaker 3: the weekend of her vendors coming in, her cake being delivered. 139 00:06:41,287 --> 00:06:44,647 Speaker 3: She was using umbrellas to shield her dress. To jog 140 00:06:44,687 --> 00:06:48,767 Speaker 3: your memory. Britney Higgins is famous in quotation marks in 141 00:06:48,807 --> 00:06:52,647 Speaker 3: Australia because she alleges that she was raped in Parliament 142 00:06:52,647 --> 00:06:55,807 Speaker 3: House in twenty nineteen by a colleague. That is her 143 00:06:55,847 --> 00:06:57,007 Speaker 3: claim to fame. 144 00:06:57,207 --> 00:06:59,727 Speaker 5: Yeah. I was reading about how the Daily Mail paid 145 00:06:59,727 --> 00:07:04,167 Speaker 5: fifteen hundred dollars to hire a helicopter to get aerial 146 00:07:04,207 --> 00:07:07,367 Speaker 5: shots of the wedding, and I was like, that's a 147 00:07:07,407 --> 00:07:11,647 Speaker 5: pretty interesting thing that we are but sending tabloid and 148 00:07:11,647 --> 00:07:16,127 Speaker 5: paparazzi photographers to photograph the wedding of a rape victim. 149 00:07:16,567 --> 00:07:20,847 Speaker 5: I understand that she is now for better and worse worse, 150 00:07:20,967 --> 00:07:25,007 Speaker 5: she would say, a public figure, and that there is interest. 151 00:07:25,927 --> 00:07:27,967 Speaker 5: What I'm interested to understand is do you think that 152 00:07:28,127 --> 00:07:32,047 Speaker 5: interest is everybody wants a good thing to happen to her, 153 00:07:32,167 --> 00:07:35,527 Speaker 5: and everybody wants to cheer on hopefully this new chapter 154 00:07:35,607 --> 00:07:38,927 Speaker 5: in her life. Or do you think there's something a 155 00:07:38,927 --> 00:07:41,287 Speaker 5: bit more malevolent about the interest. 156 00:07:41,527 --> 00:07:43,127 Speaker 3: I think it's a bit of column a bit of 157 00:07:43,127 --> 00:07:45,047 Speaker 3: colum b. I mean, I know, I was excited to 158 00:07:45,047 --> 00:07:46,767 Speaker 3: see her name in a headline for a good reason, 159 00:07:46,967 --> 00:07:49,767 Speaker 3: for a change. I was like, oh, lovely, Britney got married, 160 00:07:49,887 --> 00:07:51,687 Speaker 3: and that's honestly all I thought about it. Then I 161 00:07:51,687 --> 00:07:53,647 Speaker 3: looked at the headlines a bit closer, and I noticed 162 00:07:53,727 --> 00:07:56,967 Speaker 3: that there seems to be a bit of snark behind 163 00:07:56,967 --> 00:07:59,567 Speaker 3: the way some people are covering this news in their 164 00:07:59,607 --> 00:08:01,847 Speaker 3: headlines and in their articles themselves. 165 00:08:02,207 --> 00:08:04,687 Speaker 2: The snark that I noticed because agreed, I saw the 166 00:08:04,727 --> 00:08:07,727 Speaker 2: picture shed on her official channels, and then by as 167 00:08:07,767 --> 00:08:11,767 Speaker 2: is obviously traditional millennial weddings, everybody waits for her to 168 00:08:11,767 --> 00:08:14,847 Speaker 2: post and then they can all post it. So Brittany 169 00:08:14,887 --> 00:08:18,767 Speaker 2: and David posted her husband David beautiful pictures, and then 170 00:08:19,167 --> 00:08:20,847 Speaker 2: various people who are at the wedding posted too. 171 00:08:20,727 --> 00:08:23,207 Speaker 5: And I was like, oh, who was there? I married 172 00:08:23,247 --> 00:08:25,207 Speaker 5: my best friend. She did and it was glorious. 173 00:08:25,247 --> 00:08:28,047 Speaker 2: But one of the things that I noticed immediately in 174 00:08:28,087 --> 00:08:30,647 Speaker 2: all the coverage, and it's obviously clicking really well if 175 00:08:30,647 --> 00:08:32,927 Speaker 2: you ever want to see, Like obviously we work in 176 00:08:32,967 --> 00:08:34,847 Speaker 2: digital media, we understand this, but I'm sure you all 177 00:08:34,887 --> 00:08:37,607 Speaker 2: do too. If Britney Higgins's wedding is still at the 178 00:08:37,607 --> 00:08:39,047 Speaker 2: top of the Daily Mail and still at the top 179 00:08:39,087 --> 00:08:40,527 Speaker 2: of all the news sites a couple of days after 180 00:08:40,567 --> 00:08:43,327 Speaker 2: it's happened, it means that people are interested and they're clicking. 181 00:08:43,607 --> 00:08:45,967 Speaker 2: And one of the things that you'll see in particularly 182 00:08:46,047 --> 00:08:48,327 Speaker 2: the Mail and the Australian coverage, I have to say, 183 00:08:48,847 --> 00:08:51,207 Speaker 2: is a lot of mention of how much everything costs. 184 00:08:51,327 --> 00:08:53,967 Speaker 2: So there's lots of use of the word lavish in everything. 185 00:08:54,247 --> 00:08:56,487 Speaker 2: There are quotes about how much the dress must have been. 186 00:08:56,727 --> 00:08:58,487 Speaker 2: There are quotes about how much it costs to hire 187 00:08:58,527 --> 00:09:01,367 Speaker 2: that vineyard, there are quotes about how much it costs 188 00:09:01,367 --> 00:09:03,807 Speaker 2: to hire you know, the cars and the secure. 189 00:09:04,487 --> 00:09:08,207 Speaker 5: Because every wedding is expensive, and every celebrity wedding. 190 00:09:07,967 --> 00:09:11,447 Speaker 2: Is well she is it a celebrity, That's the question. 191 00:09:11,967 --> 00:09:14,167 Speaker 2: I think that the people who are big supporters of 192 00:09:14,167 --> 00:09:17,087 Speaker 2: Brittany and let's not pretend that this news story and 193 00:09:17,127 --> 00:09:21,167 Speaker 2: all its various twists and turns and court cases and 194 00:09:21,207 --> 00:09:25,607 Speaker 2: countercourt cases and libel actions and defamation trials and civil suits. 195 00:09:25,647 --> 00:09:28,847 Speaker 2: Has not consumed the news media for the past or 196 00:09:29,007 --> 00:09:32,367 Speaker 2: five years. Almost she has become a public figure, and 197 00:09:32,407 --> 00:09:35,367 Speaker 2: I think that those who have always supported and rooted 198 00:09:35,367 --> 00:09:38,247 Speaker 2: for her, like you Jem, were like, this is gorgeous. 199 00:09:38,247 --> 00:09:40,007 Speaker 2: She's just living a life, getting on with her life. 200 00:09:40,007 --> 00:09:42,847 Speaker 2: This is an important milestone, Hurrah. I hate to give 201 00:09:42,887 --> 00:09:46,367 Speaker 2: credence to the commenters, but you can see the tone 202 00:09:46,407 --> 00:09:48,447 Speaker 2: that's leading to the snark about the money. 203 00:09:48,527 --> 00:09:51,607 Speaker 5: The dog whistle is about. What it is about the fact. 204 00:09:51,327 --> 00:09:55,727 Speaker 2: That she famously got settlements from the Australian government after 205 00:09:56,407 --> 00:10:00,887 Speaker 2: her trial collapsed, and that she's spending this money on 206 00:10:00,927 --> 00:10:03,887 Speaker 2: this lavish wedding and this lavish lifestyle that she and 207 00:10:03,967 --> 00:10:07,607 Speaker 2: David are leading. And I think that is what's behind 208 00:10:07,607 --> 00:10:10,047 Speaker 2: the snarky tone out. 209 00:10:09,847 --> 00:10:14,607 Speaker 3: Like she's this incredibly rich woman that has taken millions 210 00:10:14,647 --> 00:10:16,527 Speaker 3: upon millions from the Australian government. 211 00:10:16,887 --> 00:10:19,207 Speaker 1: I want to just tell you what she received. She 212 00:10:19,247 --> 00:10:19,767 Speaker 1: had a two. 213 00:10:19,647 --> 00:10:22,007 Speaker 3: Point four million dollar settlement, which does sound like a 214 00:10:22,007 --> 00:10:24,367 Speaker 3: lot of money, but when you actually break that down, 215 00:10:24,527 --> 00:10:29,407 Speaker 3: it's four hundred thousand dollars for hurt distress, humiliation. It's 216 00:10:29,487 --> 00:10:32,887 Speaker 3: one point four to eight million in earning capacity. 217 00:10:32,967 --> 00:10:34,527 Speaker 5: Two hundred lost earning. 218 00:10:34,287 --> 00:10:37,367 Speaker 3: Capacity, earning capacity, a bunch of money for medical, past 219 00:10:37,407 --> 00:10:40,207 Speaker 3: and future domestic assistance, and then two hundred and forty 220 00:10:40,207 --> 00:10:43,927 Speaker 3: five thousand in legal costs. So when you actually break 221 00:10:43,967 --> 00:10:46,247 Speaker 3: it all down, like, yes, she received a big payment, 222 00:10:46,247 --> 00:10:47,487 Speaker 3: but why shouldn't. 223 00:10:47,087 --> 00:10:50,967 Speaker 2: She have well, And also it's worth noting that this 224 00:10:51,007 --> 00:10:55,087 Speaker 2: is still going on. There's a claim from Linda Reynolds, 225 00:10:55,127 --> 00:10:56,927 Speaker 2: her former boss, to try and get some of that 226 00:10:56,967 --> 00:10:59,087 Speaker 2: money back as far as I understand it, right, so 227 00:10:59,127 --> 00:11:02,447 Speaker 2: it's still not settled. What's interesting is I was examining 228 00:11:02,487 --> 00:11:04,807 Speaker 2: my own response to this, right, and I was, as 229 00:11:04,847 --> 00:11:06,767 Speaker 2: I say, it was all over my feed from these 230 00:11:06,847 --> 00:11:10,327 Speaker 2: beautiful pictures, and I thought, how lovely. But there was 231 00:11:10,367 --> 00:11:12,287 Speaker 2: a bit of me when I then saw the pap 232 00:11:12,327 --> 00:11:16,287 Speaker 2: shots of them having to shield themselves under umbrellas, which 233 00:11:16,327 --> 00:11:18,447 Speaker 2: is very what soap stars and movie stars do. 234 00:11:18,727 --> 00:11:22,367 Speaker 5: Interestingly, though, whole we are very familiar with seeing those 235 00:11:22,407 --> 00:11:26,247 Speaker 5: pictures from the days when women's magazines like Women's Day 236 00:11:26,327 --> 00:11:30,047 Speaker 5: and Women's Weekly or People magazine would get exclusives. So 237 00:11:30,367 --> 00:11:33,767 Speaker 5: I think we need to just check our muscle memory, 238 00:11:33,847 --> 00:11:37,327 Speaker 5: because it used to be that those umbrellas signified was 239 00:11:37,407 --> 00:11:40,807 Speaker 5: and fair enough that they have been paid and they 240 00:11:40,847 --> 00:11:43,607 Speaker 5: need to protect the exclusive of the media channel that 241 00:11:43,647 --> 00:11:47,407 Speaker 5: they've sold their wedding to. Now that's not as far 242 00:11:47,407 --> 00:11:49,567 Speaker 5: as we know, No, it could be. I don't think 243 00:11:49,567 --> 00:11:53,327 Speaker 5: that's what's happening here. This is more just about literally 244 00:11:53,407 --> 00:11:58,647 Speaker 5: the privacy of a woman whose privacy has been I mean, 245 00:11:58,727 --> 00:12:01,167 Speaker 5: my god, not only the things that we've heard in 246 00:12:01,247 --> 00:12:04,887 Speaker 5: court and heard her have to recount under evidence, but 247 00:12:04,967 --> 00:12:09,687 Speaker 5: also the leaking of text messages, phone records. It's quite 248 00:12:09,807 --> 00:12:11,367 Speaker 5: extraordinary what's happened to her. 249 00:12:11,567 --> 00:12:13,727 Speaker 2: You're write me that when I see the black umbrellas 250 00:12:13,727 --> 00:12:16,607 Speaker 2: and I see all that stuff, I think, oh, celebrity treatment. 251 00:12:17,127 --> 00:12:19,207 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, it's not that. But there was a 252 00:12:19,207 --> 00:12:21,727 Speaker 2: bit of me examining my own reaction that was like, 253 00:12:21,807 --> 00:12:24,327 Speaker 2: I wonder, why, when you've been subject to all of 254 00:12:24,367 --> 00:12:27,647 Speaker 2: that scrutiny that you just explained, you might not choose 255 00:12:27,807 --> 00:12:31,087 Speaker 2: to sneak off in inverted commas and have some kind 256 00:12:31,087 --> 00:12:34,047 Speaker 2: of very private, quiet wedding, because surely the last thing 257 00:12:34,087 --> 00:12:35,127 Speaker 2: you'd want was all that attention. 258 00:12:35,567 --> 00:12:37,447 Speaker 5: But then I kind of had to check myself and 259 00:12:37,567 --> 00:12:38,527 Speaker 5: I the same thing. 260 00:12:38,887 --> 00:12:41,407 Speaker 2: But I had to check myself, which I often do 261 00:12:41,647 --> 00:12:43,607 Speaker 2: when I feel myself feeling, you know, one of those 262 00:12:43,687 --> 00:12:46,287 Speaker 2: kind of judgy little knots that you get sometimes when 263 00:12:46,287 --> 00:12:49,887 Speaker 2: you're scrolling social media, And I was like, why the 264 00:12:49,927 --> 00:12:54,247 Speaker 2: fuck should she Why shouldn't she get what every young 265 00:12:54,367 --> 00:12:56,927 Speaker 2: woman who wants that kind of wedding wants, which is 266 00:12:57,447 --> 00:13:00,047 Speaker 2: to be able to celebrate it with everybody and exactly 267 00:13:00,087 --> 00:13:01,967 Speaker 2: the way she wants it to do, and celebrate her 268 00:13:01,967 --> 00:13:04,927 Speaker 2: love publicly. And in a way it's a radical act 269 00:13:04,967 --> 00:13:09,527 Speaker 2: because we'd like to define Britney Higgins and maybe other 270 00:13:09,767 --> 00:13:12,687 Speaker 2: rape victims too, by their worst day, by the worst 271 00:13:12,727 --> 00:13:15,167 Speaker 2: thing that happened to them, by what we used to 272 00:13:15,207 --> 00:13:17,567 Speaker 2: love to shame women for. You know that there's some 273 00:13:17,647 --> 00:13:19,887 Speaker 2: kind of shame attached to what she should hide away 274 00:13:19,927 --> 00:13:23,007 Speaker 2: happened to her. So when I was examining my reaction, 275 00:13:23,087 --> 00:13:26,367 Speaker 2: I was like, this is actually brilliant that she's She's 276 00:13:26,447 --> 00:13:28,327 Speaker 2: just living her life. And it's the same with this 277 00:13:28,367 --> 00:13:31,207 Speaker 2: move to France, which is also weaponized by the press 278 00:13:31,247 --> 00:13:32,687 Speaker 2: that don't like her as being like. 279 00:13:32,927 --> 00:13:35,407 Speaker 5: They've run away to a lavish chateau. If you say 280 00:13:35,407 --> 00:13:37,327 Speaker 5: the word chateau. It always sounds very lavish. 281 00:13:37,367 --> 00:13:39,567 Speaker 2: Actually looks more like a crumbling farmhouse in the country, 282 00:13:39,567 --> 00:13:43,007 Speaker 2: but still chateau. And she, you know, has posted about 283 00:13:43,007 --> 00:13:45,927 Speaker 2: that and about their life and what it looks like now. 284 00:13:46,567 --> 00:13:49,287 Speaker 2: And it's such a positive thing really to be able 285 00:13:49,327 --> 00:13:51,887 Speaker 2: to go, you know what, I survived all that shit. 286 00:13:52,207 --> 00:13:54,647 Speaker 2: I survived it and now I'm living my life and 287 00:13:54,687 --> 00:13:56,167 Speaker 2: I will not be defined by it. 288 00:13:56,727 --> 00:13:58,967 Speaker 4: She has lived the last few years. 289 00:13:59,247 --> 00:14:00,407 Speaker 1: Only doing things like. 290 00:14:00,407 --> 00:14:03,607 Speaker 3: Cork cases, appearing in the media, doing all this stuff. 291 00:14:03,847 --> 00:14:05,567 Speaker 3: Why on earth would she not have a big wedding. 292 00:14:05,567 --> 00:14:06,887 Speaker 3: I actually think it would have been a bit sad 293 00:14:06,927 --> 00:14:09,007 Speaker 3: or if she had a small wedding in heat Away, 294 00:14:09,047 --> 00:14:10,327 Speaker 3: because this is her moment. 295 00:14:10,127 --> 00:14:11,487 Speaker 1: To actually celebrate herself. 296 00:14:11,767 --> 00:14:20,967 Speaker 4: Why wouldn't Shell. 297 00:14:18,047 --> 00:14:20,287 Speaker 5: Thirty six months now? If you've seen this number on 298 00:14:20,327 --> 00:14:22,807 Speaker 5: your socials this week shared by a lot of influential 299 00:14:22,887 --> 00:14:27,007 Speaker 5: parents like Zoe Foster, Blake, Guy Sbastian, Kate Richie, Steph, 300 00:14:27,047 --> 00:14:30,727 Speaker 5: Claire Smith, and Megan Gail, which I haven't to be honest, 301 00:14:30,767 --> 00:14:33,287 Speaker 5: which shows that my algorithm knows I don't consume much 302 00:14:33,327 --> 00:14:37,607 Speaker 5: parenting content. But after our conversation this morning, a lot 303 00:14:37,607 --> 00:14:39,527 Speaker 5: of people were talking about it, so we wanted to 304 00:14:39,527 --> 00:14:42,127 Speaker 5: cover it on the show today. You might, like me, 305 00:14:42,367 --> 00:14:44,407 Speaker 5: be wondering what it's all about, And there was a 306 00:14:44,447 --> 00:14:47,807 Speaker 5: Muma Mere story about this over the weekend which explained it. 307 00:14:48,367 --> 00:14:51,767 Speaker 5: All of these people are sharing throwback photos of themselves 308 00:14:52,207 --> 00:14:55,807 Speaker 5: around the age of thirteen to throw their support behind 309 00:14:55,807 --> 00:14:58,167 Speaker 5: a new campaign to raise the age at which kids 310 00:14:58,207 --> 00:15:02,007 Speaker 5: can legally access social media. At the moment, the age 311 00:15:02,007 --> 00:15:04,447 Speaker 5: that you can get social media is thirteen, although it's 312 00:15:04,447 --> 00:15:06,647 Speaker 5: not like applying for a driver's license or trying to 313 00:15:06,687 --> 00:15:09,447 Speaker 5: get into a pub. You don't need any proof of 314 00:15:09,487 --> 00:15:12,047 Speaker 5: your age. You just have to say when your birthday is. 315 00:15:12,127 --> 00:15:15,167 Speaker 5: So that seems a little problematic and a little bit 316 00:15:15,207 --> 00:15:19,047 Speaker 5: porous as far as boundaries go. But the campaign aims 317 00:15:19,087 --> 00:15:22,927 Speaker 5: to buy teens thirty six months or three more years 318 00:15:23,047 --> 00:15:27,407 Speaker 5: away from social media to help safeguard their digital future. 319 00:15:27,927 --> 00:15:29,647 Speaker 5: So it would raise the minimum age to have a 320 00:15:29,647 --> 00:15:32,967 Speaker 5: social media account up to sixteen, which is interestingly the 321 00:15:33,007 --> 00:15:36,167 Speaker 5: same age that you can legally start having sex. The 322 00:15:36,167 --> 00:15:38,367 Speaker 5: new movement is called thirty six months, as I said, 323 00:15:38,367 --> 00:15:40,407 Speaker 5: and it believes that kids need more time to develop 324 00:15:40,487 --> 00:15:44,287 Speaker 5: healthy and secure identities before they're exposed to the minefield 325 00:15:44,407 --> 00:15:47,927 Speaker 5: of social media. I've signed this petition. I saw it 326 00:15:48,087 --> 00:15:50,927 Speaker 5: of you, yeah, I did. My kids are out the 327 00:15:50,927 --> 00:15:53,727 Speaker 5: other side of it. Like for me, the horse has 328 00:15:53,767 --> 00:15:57,807 Speaker 5: bolted very much. And my kids are you know, twenty six, 329 00:15:58,527 --> 00:16:03,327 Speaker 5: eighteen and almost sixteen. But my eldest children were not 330 00:16:03,647 --> 00:16:07,607 Speaker 5: on social when they were really young, and they really 331 00:16:07,807 --> 00:16:11,167 Speaker 5: benefited from not is that because you stopped them or 332 00:16:11,207 --> 00:16:13,847 Speaker 5: they weren't interesting. It just didn't really exist. I was 333 00:16:13,887 --> 00:16:16,087 Speaker 5: more I mean, as anyone, but obviously not Luca because 334 00:16:16,127 --> 00:16:18,207 Speaker 5: he's twenty six. He wasn't very interested because he was 335 00:16:18,247 --> 00:16:19,727 Speaker 5: a boy and he was twenty six, and it was 336 00:16:19,767 --> 00:16:22,287 Speaker 5: pre Instagram pretty much, or Instagram was just kind of 337 00:16:22,287 --> 00:16:25,767 Speaker 5: starting back then. Certainly Instagram wasn't a very interesting place 338 00:16:25,807 --> 00:16:30,247 Speaker 5: for boys anyway. And then my daughter there's also Snapchat, 339 00:16:30,327 --> 00:16:32,927 Speaker 5: and of course there is Instagram. She's definitely been affected 340 00:16:32,967 --> 00:16:36,247 Speaker 5: by Instagram and the people who are most passionate about 341 00:16:36,287 --> 00:16:38,447 Speaker 5: the need for the age to be lifted. Interestingly, as 342 00:16:38,487 --> 00:16:42,967 Speaker 5: a lot of teenagers who are older and who've said, oh, yeah, 343 00:16:43,167 --> 00:16:45,967 Speaker 5: you know, it's really bad because it's not just the 344 00:16:46,007 --> 00:16:51,047 Speaker 5: imagery that you're exposed to, it's also the you know, 345 00:16:51,367 --> 00:16:54,407 Speaker 5: every time you put a photo up or someone puts 346 00:16:54,407 --> 00:16:56,487 Speaker 5: a photo up of you, it's all the commentary that 347 00:16:56,567 --> 00:17:00,847 Speaker 5: happens underneath that. And for girls, it's this incredible emphasis 348 00:17:00,887 --> 00:17:04,447 Speaker 5: on appearance. It's the use of face tune and what 349 00:17:04,487 --> 00:17:06,887 Speaker 5: that does, scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and looking at 350 00:17:06,887 --> 00:17:11,327 Speaker 5: images of people that don't exist. And then there's really 351 00:17:11,327 --> 00:17:14,447 Speaker 5: insidious things like on Snapchat there's a feature called snapmaps, 352 00:17:14,447 --> 00:17:16,887 Speaker 5: which I've talked about lots of times, which a lot 353 00:17:16,967 --> 00:17:19,647 Speaker 5: of parents would have no idea about, because most teenagers 354 00:17:19,767 --> 00:17:24,567 Speaker 5: use Snapchat as just their form of messaging. The way 355 00:17:24,607 --> 00:17:28,087 Speaker 5: snap maps works, everybody that you follow you can see 356 00:17:28,087 --> 00:17:30,367 Speaker 5: where they are on a map of your area. So 357 00:17:30,807 --> 00:17:32,847 Speaker 5: you can see when everybody's at someone's house and you 358 00:17:32,887 --> 00:17:35,327 Speaker 5: didn't get invited. You can see when everybody's at a party. 359 00:17:35,727 --> 00:17:38,007 Speaker 5: You've got situations where girls will be like, oh no, 360 00:17:38,087 --> 00:17:40,407 Speaker 5: I can't come over. Mom says I've got to stay 361 00:17:40,447 --> 00:17:42,487 Speaker 5: at home, and then you see everybody's over at Sophie's 362 00:17:42,487 --> 00:17:46,207 Speaker 5: house on snap maps. And the idea of this campaign 363 00:17:46,647 --> 00:17:49,607 Speaker 5: is that kids at age thirteen just aren't equipped to 364 00:17:49,727 --> 00:17:51,847 Speaker 5: deal with all of that. I mean, adults aren't equipped 365 00:17:51,847 --> 00:17:54,967 Speaker 5: to deal with it. Holly you've got kids in the 366 00:17:55,007 --> 00:17:58,447 Speaker 5: crosshairs of this age. Why are you surprised that I 367 00:17:58,487 --> 00:18:00,967 Speaker 5: signed the petition and will use it. I thought that 368 00:18:01,087 --> 00:18:06,887 Speaker 5: you were on my team. Maybe I've switched teams. Tell me. 369 00:18:09,327 --> 00:18:12,687 Speaker 2: A bit facetious, because so my daughter's fourteen. She got 370 00:18:12,687 --> 00:18:15,327 Speaker 2: her first phone when she went to high school. I 371 00:18:15,407 --> 00:18:17,967 Speaker 2: was relatively proud of myself for holding out to high 372 00:18:18,007 --> 00:18:20,247 Speaker 2: school because in the particularly when we lived in Sydney, 373 00:18:20,287 --> 00:18:21,727 Speaker 2: it was certainly the case. There are lots of primary 374 00:18:21,727 --> 00:18:25,127 Speaker 2: school kids who had phones. And where all this is 375 00:18:25,167 --> 00:18:27,607 Speaker 2: coming from, well not where it's coming from. But part 376 00:18:27,647 --> 00:18:29,967 Speaker 2: of the movement for this change is to do with 377 00:18:30,007 --> 00:18:32,527 Speaker 2: that Jonathan Hype book. He's written a book called The 378 00:18:32,567 --> 00:18:35,607 Speaker 2: Anxious Generation, and we talked about an essay that he'd 379 00:18:35,607 --> 00:18:38,127 Speaker 2: written in The Atlantic called end the Phone based Childhood Now, 380 00:18:38,287 --> 00:18:41,847 Speaker 2: which was about how basically smartphones of ruined degeneration right, 381 00:18:41,967 --> 00:18:44,447 Speaker 2: and one of his calls to action in there is 382 00:18:44,487 --> 00:18:47,447 Speaker 2: that parents need to band together. That's a lot of 383 00:18:47,487 --> 00:18:51,727 Speaker 2: what this campaign is about. It's about normalizing and mobilizing 384 00:18:51,887 --> 00:18:54,687 Speaker 2: parental groups to be able to go because what happens 385 00:18:54,727 --> 00:18:57,367 Speaker 2: is your kid says I want a phone, I want snapchat, whatever, 386 00:18:57,727 --> 00:19:00,527 Speaker 2: and you say no, and they say everybody's got it, 387 00:19:00,567 --> 00:19:02,527 Speaker 2: and if I don't have it, I'll be ostracized. And 388 00:19:02,567 --> 00:19:06,247 Speaker 2: in often cases that's relatively true. But what Height argues 389 00:19:06,367 --> 00:19:09,727 Speaker 2: is the only way to change that apart from these 390 00:19:09,727 --> 00:19:13,647 Speaker 2: systemic changes that we're talking about, like proper age gating 391 00:19:13,847 --> 00:19:16,887 Speaker 2: and raising the age and tech companies taking responsibility for 392 00:19:16,967 --> 00:19:19,647 Speaker 2: their irresponsible algorithms and all those things. But he's saying, 393 00:19:19,647 --> 00:19:22,887 Speaker 2: at a grassroots level, you have to convince other parents 394 00:19:22,887 --> 00:19:25,727 Speaker 2: to get on board with you and be like, Okay, none. 395 00:19:25,607 --> 00:19:28,567 Speaker 5: Of us will buy a phone. It's not fair. And 396 00:19:28,607 --> 00:19:29,527 Speaker 5: that's why i'm parents. 397 00:19:29,527 --> 00:19:31,767 Speaker 2: And that's interesting because when I joke and say I 398 00:19:31,767 --> 00:19:35,007 Speaker 2: thought you're on my team, it's not because I don't agree. 399 00:19:35,407 --> 00:19:37,447 Speaker 2: I think smartphones have ruined all of us to be 400 00:19:37,487 --> 00:19:42,487 Speaker 2: honest and politics and democracy and social discourse and many 401 00:19:42,527 --> 00:19:45,367 Speaker 2: many things. There's a bit of me that riles against 402 00:19:45,407 --> 00:19:48,807 Speaker 2: the parent pressure. And maybe that's because I gave in. 403 00:19:48,847 --> 00:19:50,567 Speaker 2: I guess, if we want to look at it that way. 404 00:19:50,567 --> 00:19:53,927 Speaker 2: But also I think it's hard to generalize about what 405 00:19:53,967 --> 00:19:54,647 Speaker 2: everybody eats. 406 00:19:55,007 --> 00:19:57,567 Speaker 5: That's what this is about, and that's why I signed it. 407 00:19:57,647 --> 00:20:00,247 Speaker 5: Because I agree with you. I don't think it's fair 408 00:20:01,047 --> 00:20:03,807 Speaker 5: to ask parents to do this. And you know, Jim 409 00:20:04,007 --> 00:20:07,167 Speaker 5: all I can compare this to is imagine if there 410 00:20:07,247 --> 00:20:12,487 Speaker 5: was no age restrict on alcohol and people said, oh, parents, 411 00:20:12,527 --> 00:20:14,967 Speaker 5: you just decide, And same with driving a car. You 412 00:20:15,007 --> 00:20:17,447 Speaker 5: know the age restriction, but you don't have to prove 413 00:20:17,487 --> 00:20:19,687 Speaker 5: that you're a certain age. It's just really a guideline 414 00:20:19,727 --> 00:20:22,127 Speaker 5: and we all know it's kind of just a loose recommendation. 415 00:20:22,687 --> 00:20:26,247 Speaker 5: So what parents asking for is for there to be 416 00:20:26,407 --> 00:20:29,607 Speaker 5: legislation that we don't have to be responsible for deciding 417 00:20:29,647 --> 00:20:32,087 Speaker 5: whether our children can drink, whether they can be on 418 00:20:32,167 --> 00:20:36,047 Speaker 5: social media. And some people might say that's outsourcing to 419 00:20:36,127 --> 00:20:38,167 Speaker 5: the government and to big tech, but we do this 420 00:20:38,247 --> 00:20:41,127 Speaker 5: with other important things like sex and alcohol and voting. 421 00:20:41,687 --> 00:20:43,487 Speaker 5: We don't just say here's a loose guideline, what do 422 00:20:43,527 --> 00:20:43,847 Speaker 5: you think. 423 00:20:43,927 --> 00:20:47,647 Speaker 3: But with something like sex you can say that there's 424 00:20:47,687 --> 00:20:50,327 Speaker 3: a legal limit, it doesn't mean that kids are going to. 425 00:20:50,287 --> 00:20:52,927 Speaker 4: Actually abide by it. With alcohol, you. 426 00:20:52,847 --> 00:20:55,967 Speaker 3: To walk into a liquor store, show them a fake 427 00:20:56,007 --> 00:20:57,967 Speaker 3: ID and they can go, yeah, no out you go 428 00:20:58,167 --> 00:20:58,887 Speaker 3: and yeah, buy it. 429 00:20:58,927 --> 00:21:00,487 Speaker 1: But this is the internet. You can do whatever you 430 00:21:00,527 --> 00:21:00,807 Speaker 1: want on me. 431 00:21:01,007 --> 00:21:04,607 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's true that you can circumnavigate any rule 432 00:21:04,687 --> 00:21:06,247 Speaker 2: or law if you want to, but there is no 433 00:21:06,407 --> 00:21:08,927 Speaker 2: doubt that that law is a terror right. So yeah, 434 00:21:08,967 --> 00:21:11,327 Speaker 2: of course it's true that thirteen year olds will still 435 00:21:11,327 --> 00:21:14,007 Speaker 2: find a way onto social media. But if tech companies 436 00:21:14,007 --> 00:21:16,007 Speaker 2: were really serious about it, they could make their age 437 00:21:16,007 --> 00:21:19,127 Speaker 2: getting really sophisticated. I mean, AARI is supposed to be 438 00:21:19,167 --> 00:21:21,007 Speaker 2: able to do anything, but apparently it can't tell how 439 00:21:21,007 --> 00:21:23,207 Speaker 2: old somebody is is looking at their phone. I'm like, really, 440 00:21:23,527 --> 00:21:26,927 Speaker 2: but what I'd love to it? Yeah, exactly. I'd love 441 00:21:26,967 --> 00:21:29,327 Speaker 2: to know from you, Jem. So you're a relatively new parent, 442 00:21:29,367 --> 00:21:30,767 Speaker 2: your little boys one one. 443 00:21:30,607 --> 00:21:31,007 Speaker 5: And a half. 444 00:21:31,967 --> 00:21:35,207 Speaker 2: I'd love to know if your generation of parents, like 445 00:21:35,327 --> 00:21:39,727 Speaker 2: Jesse obviously to watching all this, have a very different 446 00:21:39,767 --> 00:21:41,047 Speaker 2: attitude to technology. 447 00:21:41,167 --> 00:21:43,167 Speaker 5: You like, my child will never see a screen. What 448 00:21:43,207 --> 00:21:43,767 Speaker 5: do you think. 449 00:21:44,087 --> 00:21:44,767 Speaker 1: There's no doubt. 450 00:21:44,767 --> 00:21:48,087 Speaker 3: It's at the forefront of my mind because I'm addicted 451 00:21:48,127 --> 00:21:50,247 Speaker 3: to my phone, and my son knows that if he 452 00:21:50,287 --> 00:21:52,687 Speaker 3: sees my phone unattended in my house, he goes and. 453 00:21:52,647 --> 00:21:53,647 Speaker 1: Gets it and gives it to me. 454 00:21:54,007 --> 00:21:55,847 Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't want to use it, he gives it 455 00:21:55,887 --> 00:21:58,607 Speaker 3: to me because he knows my mom's phone. 456 00:21:59,447 --> 00:22:00,807 Speaker 1: So I know that it's bad. 457 00:22:01,247 --> 00:22:03,007 Speaker 3: I think part of me feels and no, no, this 458 00:22:03,047 --> 00:22:04,927 Speaker 3: is horrible, but a little bit protected because I have 459 00:22:04,967 --> 00:22:07,207 Speaker 3: a boy, and I know that he's probably not going 460 00:22:07,287 --> 00:22:09,727 Speaker 3: to be as obsessed as I want, or as a 461 00:22:09,767 --> 00:22:13,047 Speaker 3: lot of the young girls I see are. I don't 462 00:22:13,047 --> 00:22:16,407 Speaker 3: think I will be stopping him from having a phone 463 00:22:16,447 --> 00:22:18,647 Speaker 3: at a certain age. Obviously I'm not at that point. 464 00:22:19,647 --> 00:22:22,527 Speaker 3: Just have a little micro chap hovocrafts. But for the 465 00:22:22,567 --> 00:22:25,407 Speaker 3: safety reasons, I like the idea of him having a phone. 466 00:22:26,287 --> 00:22:28,247 Speaker 3: For the stranger danger, for the being on the buses. 467 00:22:28,367 --> 00:22:31,127 Speaker 5: It's the phone. It's the social media and social media. 468 00:22:31,207 --> 00:22:34,007 Speaker 5: That's the lie that we were sold that giving your 469 00:22:34,087 --> 00:22:38,727 Speaker 5: child a phone means giving them social media and access 470 00:22:38,807 --> 00:22:43,167 Speaker 5: to a completely unregulated internet. And that's where I think 471 00:22:43,607 --> 00:22:47,287 Speaker 5: we are learning through trial and error, And unfortunately, there's 472 00:22:47,327 --> 00:22:49,847 Speaker 5: a generation that is going to be error and we're 473 00:22:49,887 --> 00:22:53,567 Speaker 5: seeing shocking things in terms of mental health and body 474 00:22:53,607 --> 00:22:55,567 Speaker 5: image and all of that bullying and all of these 475 00:22:55,767 --> 00:22:59,287 Speaker 5: issues that we couldn't have well maybe we could have foreseen, 476 00:22:59,607 --> 00:23:03,127 Speaker 5: but that nobody did foresee the long term effects of 477 00:23:03,207 --> 00:23:03,767 Speaker 5: social media. 478 00:23:03,807 --> 00:23:06,207 Speaker 2: Well, lots of people argue that the tech companies, you know, 479 00:23:06,287 --> 00:23:08,607 Speaker 2: they did foresee it, and that they encourage it because 480 00:23:08,767 --> 00:23:10,847 Speaker 2: their number one and only priority is to keep you 481 00:23:10,927 --> 00:23:13,007 Speaker 2: on your phone as long as possible, however old you are. 482 00:23:13,287 --> 00:23:15,087 Speaker 2: And I mean I'm being a bit facetious when I 483 00:23:15,127 --> 00:23:17,727 Speaker 2: say I'm being defensive about it. I do support the 484 00:23:17,807 --> 00:23:20,407 Speaker 2: idea of social media and having the age limit raise. 485 00:23:20,447 --> 00:23:22,247 Speaker 5: I really do, so I may well go and sign. 486 00:23:22,967 --> 00:23:27,887 Speaker 2: But I find the pressure to make parents group together 487 00:23:27,967 --> 00:23:30,167 Speaker 2: to push on these things like phone ages and stuff 488 00:23:30,207 --> 00:23:34,287 Speaker 2: hard because different families have really different circumstances. And you'll 489 00:23:34,287 --> 00:23:36,167 Speaker 2: often know that some of the kids who will get 490 00:23:36,207 --> 00:23:39,927 Speaker 2: phones earlier than others, and phones are the start of it, 491 00:23:39,967 --> 00:23:41,527 Speaker 2: all right, But what's a whole what's the. 492 00:23:41,687 --> 00:23:44,767 Speaker 5: User case for a kid having social media at thirteen? 493 00:23:44,927 --> 00:23:47,927 Speaker 5: The only one is that all my friends do exactly. Yes, 494 00:23:48,007 --> 00:23:51,007 Speaker 5: So if that was taken out of the parents' hands 495 00:23:51,047 --> 00:23:53,487 Speaker 5: in terms of having to push against the tide of 496 00:23:53,567 --> 00:23:57,007 Speaker 5: peer pressure, great peer pressure, that would be great, right, yeah, 497 00:23:57,007 --> 00:23:59,847 Speaker 5: one hundred percent. Let's give that responsibility back to the technology. 498 00:23:59,887 --> 00:24:00,007 Speaker 3: I know. 499 00:24:00,127 --> 00:24:00,687 Speaker 5: I like that. 500 00:24:00,847 --> 00:24:02,927 Speaker 2: So what I'm saying is I like this push to 501 00:24:03,007 --> 00:24:05,327 Speaker 2: raise the age. But the thing that irks me a 502 00:24:05,367 --> 00:24:08,567 Speaker 2: little bit is the idea that all parents need to 503 00:24:08,567 --> 00:24:10,527 Speaker 2: get together and to agree on these things when our 504 00:24:10,567 --> 00:24:13,247 Speaker 2: situation is really different. If you are a single parent, 505 00:24:13,527 --> 00:24:15,487 Speaker 2: you have very different reasons for needing your kid to 506 00:24:15,527 --> 00:24:17,407 Speaker 2: have a phone and be able to be contactable than 507 00:24:17,447 --> 00:24:18,967 Speaker 2: some other parents. If your kid has to travel a 508 00:24:18,967 --> 00:24:21,087 Speaker 2: long way to school, you have different reasons. If you 509 00:24:21,447 --> 00:24:23,887 Speaker 2: work funny hours and your shifts might change at any time, 510 00:24:24,047 --> 00:24:26,247 Speaker 2: you have different reasons. So I guess what I'm saying 511 00:24:26,287 --> 00:24:28,207 Speaker 2: is I agree with this campaign, but there's a bit 512 00:24:28,247 --> 00:24:30,807 Speaker 2: of me that's like, we have to stop saying that 513 00:24:31,047 --> 00:24:32,207 Speaker 2: parents have to deal with it. 514 00:24:32,407 --> 00:24:34,727 Speaker 3: You know, do you think that thirty six months will 515 00:24:34,767 --> 00:24:37,567 Speaker 3: actually have an impact on children? 516 00:24:37,687 --> 00:24:41,087 Speaker 2: Yes, because the age difference between thirteen and sixteen is huge. 517 00:24:41,447 --> 00:24:45,007 Speaker 2: It's so funny how quickly social norms have shifted that 518 00:24:45,087 --> 00:24:48,087 Speaker 2: I cannot actually imagine kids not being allowed to be 519 00:24:48,167 --> 00:24:51,047 Speaker 2: on social media till they're sixteen. But that's just like 520 00:24:51,127 --> 00:24:52,727 Speaker 2: I used to never be able to imagine that you 521 00:24:52,727 --> 00:24:54,447 Speaker 2: weren't allowed to smoke in a restaurant, you know what 522 00:24:54,527 --> 00:24:57,647 Speaker 2: I mean? Like very quickly if and when, and I 523 00:24:57,687 --> 00:25:00,327 Speaker 2: think it probably is a when these kind of age 524 00:25:00,367 --> 00:25:03,247 Speaker 2: gating rules come in, will probably very quickly, as you 525 00:25:03,287 --> 00:25:06,687 Speaker 2: said me are about alcohol be I can't believe that 526 00:25:06,767 --> 00:25:09,247 Speaker 2: my fourteen year old was on Instagram. 527 00:25:09,447 --> 00:25:11,447 Speaker 3: I really do think that we need more in schools, 528 00:25:11,447 --> 00:25:13,847 Speaker 3: though I always think with this stuff it's about education. 529 00:25:14,367 --> 00:25:17,727 Speaker 3: I think what this thirty six month campaign recognizes is 530 00:25:17,767 --> 00:25:23,927 Speaker 3: that those ages between thirteen and sixteen are absolutely unlike 531 00:25:24,247 --> 00:25:28,007 Speaker 3: any other three years of a person's life in terms 532 00:25:28,007 --> 00:25:31,127 Speaker 3: of how vulnerable you are, how much you're changing, how 533 00:25:31,207 --> 00:25:35,127 Speaker 3: much your body's changing, how much understanding where you are 534 00:25:35,127 --> 00:25:38,447 Speaker 3: in the world changes, how much your friendship groups change. 535 00:25:38,767 --> 00:25:41,567 Speaker 3: You know, they say to you when you start high school, 536 00:25:41,807 --> 00:25:43,647 Speaker 3: it's when as a parent you go from being your 537 00:25:43,727 --> 00:25:47,407 Speaker 3: child's manager to being a consultant around the age of thirteen, 538 00:25:48,047 --> 00:25:51,527 Speaker 3: and so suddenly we're going away from being our child's 539 00:25:51,527 --> 00:25:55,807 Speaker 3: manager to handing that over to the unregulated Internet, and 540 00:25:55,847 --> 00:25:59,927 Speaker 3: that I think we're only really realizing now the consequences 541 00:25:59,967 --> 00:26:02,247 Speaker 3: of that. I think that the idea of oh, the 542 00:26:02,287 --> 00:26:03,167 Speaker 3: journey's out of theottle. 543 00:26:03,207 --> 00:26:05,327 Speaker 5: It's too late. I'm glad that people are thinking it's 544 00:26:05,327 --> 00:26:05,927 Speaker 5: not too late. 545 00:26:06,167 --> 00:26:08,527 Speaker 2: My son obviously has gone to high school in January. 546 00:26:09,407 --> 00:26:11,447 Speaker 2: Of the rules that we had for my daughter, which 547 00:26:11,487 --> 00:26:13,207 Speaker 2: was that she got her phone when she went high school. 548 00:26:13,207 --> 00:26:16,247 Speaker 2: That's exactly what everyone is expecting to happen, and in 549 00:26:16,327 --> 00:26:19,807 Speaker 2: large part because of Jonathan Ate and these campaigns, I'm 550 00:26:19,887 --> 00:26:22,447 Speaker 2: like having a lot of angxety conversations about whether or 551 00:26:22,487 --> 00:26:23,887 Speaker 2: not that's going to happen, and should it be a 552 00:26:23,967 --> 00:26:27,087 Speaker 2: dumb phone? Should it only have texting on it? Like 553 00:26:27,207 --> 00:26:29,047 Speaker 2: it's changing everybody's opinion. 554 00:26:28,967 --> 00:26:31,247 Speaker 5: Out Louders, We'll put a link if you're interested to 555 00:26:31,327 --> 00:26:34,247 Speaker 5: that petition in the show notes. Of course, like any petition, 556 00:26:34,487 --> 00:26:38,487 Speaker 5: read a bit about it before you sign. Out Louders. 557 00:26:38,527 --> 00:26:40,287 Speaker 2: If you want to listen to us every day of 558 00:26:40,287 --> 00:26:42,887 Speaker 2: the week, and why wouldn't you, you can get access 559 00:26:42,927 --> 00:26:46,647 Speaker 2: to exclusive segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a 560 00:26:46,687 --> 00:26:49,887 Speaker 2: MoMA mea subscriber. Follow the link in the show notes 561 00:26:49,887 --> 00:26:52,807 Speaker 2: to subscribe, and a big thank you to all our 562 00:26:52,887 --> 00:26:59,487 Speaker 2: current subscribers. On May the twenty seventh, one of the 563 00:26:59,527 --> 00:27:03,487 Speaker 2: most famous of all celebrity offspring changed her name. Now 564 00:27:03,527 --> 00:27:05,687 Speaker 2: it might be because I worked in gossip magazines at 565 00:27:05,727 --> 00:27:07,807 Speaker 2: the time and we were literally on the phone to 566 00:27:07,807 --> 00:27:10,487 Speaker 2: a photographer who was dressed in camo and hiding behind 567 00:27:10,487 --> 00:27:13,047 Speaker 2: a sand dune in the Namibian desert when it happened. 568 00:27:13,567 --> 00:27:14,847 Speaker 5: But I remember very. 569 00:27:14,647 --> 00:27:17,287 Speaker 2: Clearly the day that Shiloh Jolly Pitt, as she was 570 00:27:17,327 --> 00:27:21,167 Speaker 2: then called, was born. Now she's eighteen, which makes me 571 00:27:21,367 --> 00:27:24,487 Speaker 2: one hundred and five. But funnily enough, the way that 572 00:27:24,527 --> 00:27:27,087 Speaker 2: Shiloh marked that day was not to send me a 573 00:27:27,087 --> 00:27:29,687 Speaker 2: thank you card for my creepy and unethical interest in 574 00:27:29,727 --> 00:27:33,887 Speaker 2: her life, but by filing a court order to drop 575 00:27:33,927 --> 00:27:38,487 Speaker 2: the word pit from her name. Shiloh is now Shiloh Jolly, 576 00:27:38,607 --> 00:27:40,527 Speaker 2: or at least she will be if this court order 577 00:27:40,567 --> 00:27:44,087 Speaker 2: goes through, like her sister before her, Zahara, who introduced 578 00:27:44,087 --> 00:27:50,047 Speaker 2: herself recently in a recent college video as Zahara Marley Jolie. Now, 579 00:27:50,087 --> 00:27:52,887 Speaker 2: if you, unlike me, are not deeply steeped in the 580 00:27:52,927 --> 00:27:57,367 Speaker 2: mythology and law of this family, just very very quick 581 00:27:57,407 --> 00:27:59,847 Speaker 2: top line, because jem, you're probably a little bit young 582 00:27:59,887 --> 00:28:02,247 Speaker 2: to be as obsessed with the Joy Pitt situation. 583 00:28:01,927 --> 00:28:04,247 Speaker 5: As I am. I have the basics, you have the basics. 584 00:28:04,407 --> 00:28:08,927 Speaker 2: Yeah, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for almost fifteen years 585 00:28:08,927 --> 00:28:13,527 Speaker 2: were the pinnacle of fabulous celebrity couples. We were obsessed 586 00:28:13,607 --> 00:28:17,087 Speaker 2: with them in a way that seems yes creepy indeed. 587 00:28:17,647 --> 00:28:20,887 Speaker 2: And during that time they had six kids, three adopted kids, 588 00:28:20,927 --> 00:28:23,887 Speaker 2: three biological kids, and they were very famous for traveling 589 00:28:23,887 --> 00:28:26,727 Speaker 2: the world as a big, gorgeous group, right. They were 590 00:28:26,767 --> 00:28:31,007 Speaker 2: always off running humanitarian missions for the UN and making 591 00:28:31,087 --> 00:28:33,927 Speaker 2: movies and living in a gorgeous French chateau that really 592 00:28:34,007 --> 00:28:38,487 Speaker 2: was a chateau andlke Britney Higgins's farmhouse on a vineyard 593 00:28:38,567 --> 00:28:41,327 Speaker 2: called Miraval, which makes really nice rose but is now 594 00:28:41,447 --> 00:28:44,087 Speaker 2: one of their many battlefields. Not allowed to buy it anymore. 595 00:28:44,927 --> 00:28:48,047 Speaker 2: They've been separated for almost ten years, which is wild, right, 596 00:28:48,127 --> 00:28:51,047 Speaker 2: But all that time, that whole time, the most bitter 597 00:28:51,407 --> 00:28:55,847 Speaker 2: of court battles has been going on about money, about custody, 598 00:28:56,007 --> 00:28:59,087 Speaker 2: about divorce settlement, and most of this hangs on the 599 00:28:59,167 --> 00:29:03,207 Speaker 2: fact that Jolie says that when she knew that marriage 600 00:29:03,247 --> 00:29:05,687 Speaker 2: was over, it was after an incident on a private 601 00:29:05,767 --> 00:29:08,767 Speaker 2: jet that was flying from France to the US where 602 00:29:08,807 --> 00:29:13,287 Speaker 2: brad It drunkenly assaulted her and the children, and ever 603 00:29:13,367 --> 00:29:16,127 Speaker 2: since then she and the children have had very little 604 00:29:16,127 --> 00:29:20,487 Speaker 2: to do with him, even though he officially has shared custody, 605 00:29:21,047 --> 00:29:23,527 Speaker 2: any statement that he's ever made about it publicly, he 606 00:29:23,607 --> 00:29:25,967 Speaker 2: said that he immediately went to rehab, that he's completely 607 00:29:26,007 --> 00:29:29,127 Speaker 2: cleaned himself up, and he and his camp deny all 608 00:29:29,167 --> 00:29:31,327 Speaker 2: the Jolly allegations, or most of them anyway. 609 00:29:31,407 --> 00:29:33,487 Speaker 5: Right, But it's clear that. 610 00:29:33,447 --> 00:29:35,487 Speaker 2: Obviously the kids are team Angelina so much so they 611 00:29:35,487 --> 00:29:37,407 Speaker 2: probably have the sort of T shirts that we used 612 00:29:37,407 --> 00:29:39,127 Speaker 2: to wear back in the naughties when it was Team 613 00:29:39,167 --> 00:29:42,847 Speaker 2: gener or Team An. They're definitely team n But here's 614 00:29:42,887 --> 00:29:45,567 Speaker 2: the thing, right, after all that Pitt is not canceled, 615 00:29:46,207 --> 00:29:48,967 Speaker 2: despite those allegations that he's an abusive alcoholic or he 616 00:29:49,007 --> 00:29:51,287 Speaker 2: was an abusive alcoholic during their marriage, and the fact 617 00:29:51,327 --> 00:29:53,327 Speaker 2: that none of his children want anything to do with him, 618 00:29:53,567 --> 00:29:56,527 Speaker 2: and some of them have spoken out about that relatively publicly. 619 00:29:57,527 --> 00:30:01,487 Speaker 2: He is still the one who is in a multimillion 620 00:30:01,607 --> 00:30:05,167 Speaker 2: dollar body movie with George Clooney that's coming to a cinema. 621 00:30:04,847 --> 00:30:05,487 Speaker 5: Near us soon. 622 00:30:05,967 --> 00:30:08,967 Speaker 2: And every time you write about this story or talk 623 00:30:08,967 --> 00:30:12,847 Speaker 2: about this story, the vitriol that comes from it is 624 00:30:13,007 --> 00:30:17,847 Speaker 2: directed at Angelina Jolly always, always so, even on Mama Mia. 625 00:30:17,887 --> 00:30:21,767 Speaker 2: And we have a very you know, female inclusive, wonderful audience, 626 00:30:21,887 --> 00:30:24,367 Speaker 2: many of whom obviously they want to read about this stuff, 627 00:30:24,647 --> 00:30:28,167 Speaker 2: But they'll often say, well, it's Angelina, you know, it's Angelina. 628 00:30:28,207 --> 00:30:30,927 Speaker 5: That's she's She's turned the kids against him. She's just 629 00:30:30,927 --> 00:30:32,247 Speaker 5: turned the kids against him. 630 00:30:32,727 --> 00:30:35,207 Speaker 2: Certainly in other parts of the mainstream media, that's very 631 00:30:35,287 --> 00:30:38,327 Speaker 2: much the vibe is it's kind of poor Brad. He 632 00:30:38,407 --> 00:30:40,527 Speaker 2: was wrestling with demons, but that piece of work has 633 00:30:40,567 --> 00:30:44,767 Speaker 2: taken him down. Why do women love to hate Angelina 634 00:30:44,847 --> 00:30:46,327 Speaker 2: Jolly because of Jennifer? 635 00:30:46,647 --> 00:30:49,487 Speaker 5: Do you think really? Still? I do? I think that 636 00:30:49,607 --> 00:30:53,647 Speaker 5: stuff sticks, which is so strange given how much longer 637 00:30:54,087 --> 00:30:57,487 Speaker 5: Brad and Angelina were married. I think so much of 638 00:30:57,527 --> 00:30:59,727 Speaker 5: it comes down to, you know, going back to the 639 00:30:59,767 --> 00:31:05,447 Speaker 5: sort of nineties celebrity canon, Jennifer Aniston going out with 640 00:31:05,487 --> 00:31:07,807 Speaker 5: Brad Pitt with such a big deal in our culture 641 00:31:07,967 --> 00:31:12,447 Speaker 5: because she was incredibly famous, but she was very girl 642 00:31:12,487 --> 00:31:18,247 Speaker 5: next door, whereas he was like heart throb, whole other level, 643 00:31:18,327 --> 00:31:21,887 Speaker 5: and it was seen that him choosing to date her 644 00:31:22,287 --> 00:31:25,887 Speaker 5: was a victory for every girl who wasn't a sexy bombshell. 645 00:31:26,887 --> 00:31:29,727 Speaker 5: And then along came Angelina and that relationship clearly did 646 00:31:29,767 --> 00:31:32,407 Speaker 5: start while he was still married to Jennifer Andiston. They 647 00:31:32,407 --> 00:31:34,847 Speaker 5: were co starring in that movie Mister and Missus Smith 648 00:31:34,847 --> 00:31:38,167 Speaker 5: together and look, that kind of thing happens all the time. 649 00:31:38,207 --> 00:31:42,207 Speaker 5: It's not the first relationship or marriage that's been ended 650 00:31:42,407 --> 00:31:46,407 Speaker 5: by an affair. But there was something about it that 651 00:31:46,487 --> 00:31:50,567 Speaker 5: people turned against. I think because Jennifer Inniston's heartbreak was 652 00:31:51,287 --> 00:31:56,287 Speaker 5: so public, everybody identified with her, and even though Brad 653 00:31:56,487 --> 00:32:00,327 Speaker 5: Pitt was forgiven, Angelina kind of never was. That's the 654 00:32:00,447 --> 00:32:01,487 Speaker 5: thing that's wild about it. 655 00:32:01,527 --> 00:32:04,407 Speaker 2: I bet your generation thinks it's wild gem in particular 656 00:32:04,487 --> 00:32:07,287 Speaker 2: because Brad Pitt got through all that Team gen t 657 00:32:07,447 --> 00:32:09,847 Speaker 2: managed stuff scott free, even though he was the one 658 00:32:10,327 --> 00:32:13,367 Speaker 2: who cheated on America's sweetheart, and the villain of the 659 00:32:13,367 --> 00:32:16,327 Speaker 2: piece was Angelina. And it's interesting that all these years 660 00:32:16,367 --> 00:32:19,127 Speaker 2: later and in the interim, let's be clear about it. 661 00:32:19,167 --> 00:32:23,327 Speaker 2: Angelina Jolie is a humanitarian who is often recognized by 662 00:32:23,407 --> 00:32:26,527 Speaker 2: international organizations as having really moved the dial on a 663 00:32:26,607 --> 00:32:30,767 Speaker 2: whole lot of causes, particularly refugees. She has clearly been 664 00:32:30,807 --> 00:32:33,807 Speaker 2: a very devoted parent to those kids. She's always with them. 665 00:32:34,247 --> 00:32:36,167 Speaker 2: I know there are some cynics who are like, well, yeah, 666 00:32:36,167 --> 00:32:38,207 Speaker 2: she wheels them out, but I don't think that's true. 667 00:32:38,247 --> 00:32:41,007 Speaker 5: I just think that's bullshit. That's what I'm saying, Katie Holmes, 668 00:32:41,007 --> 00:32:43,847 Speaker 5: wheels out tzuri. It's called parenting exactly. 669 00:32:44,007 --> 00:32:46,407 Speaker 2: Those kids are now aged between fifteen and twenty two, 670 00:32:46,447 --> 00:32:48,807 Speaker 2: and they're choosing how public or not they want to be. Obviously, 671 00:32:48,807 --> 00:32:50,447 Speaker 2: when they were little kids, they had no choice. They 672 00:32:50,447 --> 00:32:53,327 Speaker 2: were hounded by the paparazzi. It was disturbing. 673 00:32:53,567 --> 00:32:56,687 Speaker 5: So in twenty twenty, Pax wrote on his social media, 674 00:32:56,727 --> 00:32:59,687 Speaker 5: which was private at the time that has since come out, 675 00:33:00,247 --> 00:33:03,167 Speaker 5: Happy Father's Day to this world class asshole with a 676 00:33:03,167 --> 00:33:05,607 Speaker 5: picture of Brad Pitt. You time and time again prove 677 00:33:05,647 --> 00:33:08,327 Speaker 5: yourself to be a terrible and despicable person. You have 678 00:33:08,367 --> 00:33:11,127 Speaker 5: no consideration or empathy towards your four youngest children, who 679 00:33:11,127 --> 00:33:14,007 Speaker 5: tremble in fear, when in your presence you've made the 680 00:33:14,047 --> 00:33:16,447 Speaker 5: lives of those closest to me a constant hell. You 681 00:33:16,487 --> 00:33:18,567 Speaker 5: may tell yourself and the world whatever you want, but 682 00:33:18,607 --> 00:33:21,047 Speaker 5: the truth will come to light someday. So Happy Father's Day, 683 00:33:21,087 --> 00:33:23,607 Speaker 5: you fucking awful human being. They're at the age now 684 00:33:23,607 --> 00:33:26,247 Speaker 5: where they can choose where they want to be and 685 00:33:26,367 --> 00:33:28,847 Speaker 5: who want to spend time with. And even though this 686 00:33:28,927 --> 00:33:31,447 Speaker 5: case has gone on and on and on, drawn out 687 00:33:31,527 --> 00:33:34,767 Speaker 5: by Brad Pitt, it must be noted who feeds the 688 00:33:34,807 --> 00:33:39,127 Speaker 5: press and manipulates the press constantly and feeds this narrative 689 00:33:39,687 --> 00:33:44,167 Speaker 5: of what a witch Angelina Jolie is the fact that 690 00:33:44,207 --> 00:33:47,487 Speaker 5: Shiloh's done this is a real clapback. It's a real 691 00:33:47,567 --> 00:33:49,887 Speaker 5: statement without making a statement. 692 00:33:50,047 --> 00:33:52,607 Speaker 2: Why do you think Brad Pitt hasn't been canceled, Jim, I. 693 00:33:52,567 --> 00:33:56,567 Speaker 3: Don't think my generation and the generations below me care 694 00:33:56,967 --> 00:33:59,527 Speaker 3: about Brad and Angela as much as your generation. 695 00:33:59,967 --> 00:34:03,967 Speaker 2: She said, Angela Angelina Angelena see. 696 00:34:03,807 --> 00:34:05,607 Speaker 1: Perfect illustration what I mean. 697 00:34:06,287 --> 00:34:08,167 Speaker 4: They've moved on Bob and Angela. 698 00:34:08,407 --> 00:34:10,247 Speaker 5: No one really care about them. 699 00:34:10,807 --> 00:34:14,487 Speaker 3: So back when I was a teenager, I was keeping 700 00:34:14,527 --> 00:34:15,887 Speaker 3: on top of them blah blah blah. 701 00:34:15,927 --> 00:34:18,287 Speaker 4: But I did feel that they were the celebrities. 702 00:34:17,767 --> 00:34:18,647 Speaker 1: Of your generation. 703 00:34:19,487 --> 00:34:22,607 Speaker 3: And your generation is still in this kind of cycle 704 00:34:22,767 --> 00:34:25,887 Speaker 3: of looking at what happened on that plane and Angelina. 705 00:34:25,967 --> 00:34:26,767 Speaker 1: We're not even. 706 00:34:26,607 --> 00:34:30,967 Speaker 3: Talking about them, like really, they're talking about the Bridgeton 707 00:34:31,087 --> 00:34:32,527 Speaker 3: stars and whether they're together. 708 00:34:32,727 --> 00:34:33,567 Speaker 1: Like I don't. 709 00:34:33,367 --> 00:34:35,847 Speaker 3: Remember the last movie that Angelina was in. It's very 710 00:34:35,887 --> 00:34:37,527 Speaker 3: much a gen X obsession, but. 711 00:34:40,047 --> 00:34:43,567 Speaker 5: I do, of course, I didn't got an icon. I'm 712 00:34:43,567 --> 00:34:46,727 Speaker 5: not saying like, is he this is. My issue is. 713 00:34:48,447 --> 00:34:50,407 Speaker 2: Whether you like him or not is an icon. It's 714 00:34:50,407 --> 00:34:52,327 Speaker 2: not your opinion whether he's an icon. He is one 715 00:34:52,367 --> 00:34:56,247 Speaker 2: of the richest defensive It's not Holly. 716 00:34:56,527 --> 00:34:59,167 Speaker 5: You can't tell someone who an icon is, but why 717 00:34:59,447 --> 00:35:02,727 Speaker 5: Hollywood icon like he is. He's definitely a Holly dot 718 00:35:02,767 --> 00:35:03,327 Speaker 5: com icon. 719 00:35:04,407 --> 00:35:06,647 Speaker 3: But the reason he hasn't been canceled is, and I 720 00:35:06,687 --> 00:35:09,047 Speaker 3: was thinking about this, their words on a page. 721 00:35:09,767 --> 00:35:14,567 Speaker 4: So only a few weeks ago we saw literal footage. 722 00:35:14,087 --> 00:35:19,287 Speaker 3: Of Cassie Ventura being physically assaulted by Sean Diddy Coombs. 723 00:35:19,647 --> 00:35:23,047 Speaker 3: We watched it, we saw it, and we all got outraged. 724 00:35:23,527 --> 00:35:26,687 Speaker 3: Many years after the fact, I read the details of 725 00:35:26,727 --> 00:35:30,367 Speaker 3: what happened on that plane allegedly and they are insane. 726 00:35:30,487 --> 00:35:34,007 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's disturbing, and if there was a video of it, 727 00:35:34,247 --> 00:35:35,887 Speaker 2: everyone everyone would care. 728 00:35:36,007 --> 00:35:36,847 Speaker 5: But because it is. 729 00:35:36,807 --> 00:35:39,127 Speaker 2: Words on a page, even though those words have been 730 00:35:39,167 --> 00:35:42,527 Speaker 2: submitted to court and aren't really contested. I mean, I 731 00:35:42,567 --> 00:35:45,727 Speaker 2: think obviously pits people think they're overblown, but they haven't 732 00:35:45,767 --> 00:35:49,767 Speaker 2: completely denied that it all happened. Somehow, there's still room 733 00:35:49,807 --> 00:35:51,287 Speaker 2: there for us to not believe a woman. 734 00:35:51,447 --> 00:35:54,807 Speaker 3: But I think it's also Angelina is a very private person. Nowadays, 735 00:35:54,847 --> 00:35:56,527 Speaker 3: we don't know a lot about her personal life. We 736 00:35:56,567 --> 00:35:58,647 Speaker 3: don't see what she's drinking in the morning, we don't 737 00:35:58,687 --> 00:35:59,447 Speaker 3: see any of that. 738 00:35:59,567 --> 00:36:00,727 Speaker 5: She doesn't play the Hollywood No. 739 00:36:01,207 --> 00:36:04,607 Speaker 2: Social media is wall to wall refugee advocacy. She does 740 00:36:04,647 --> 00:36:06,407 Speaker 2: not do outfit of the day. 741 00:36:06,647 --> 00:36:11,647 Speaker 4: She does not, especially your narration. They're struggling to get 742 00:36:11,687 --> 00:36:14,687 Speaker 4: to know her because she's not that personal. 743 00:36:14,287 --> 00:36:16,607 Speaker 5: On social I feel like I know her. I feel, 744 00:36:17,087 --> 00:36:18,647 Speaker 5: you know what, I think this story has got a 745 00:36:18,687 --> 00:36:21,727 Speaker 5: long way to play, because I think Angelina is playing 746 00:36:21,767 --> 00:36:25,087 Speaker 5: the long game. I think that one day in the future, 747 00:36:25,727 --> 00:36:29,167 Speaker 5: those children will talk about what happened on that plane, 748 00:36:29,327 --> 00:36:31,887 Speaker 5: and for all we know, they do have footage of it, 749 00:36:32,247 --> 00:36:36,167 Speaker 5: but they're choosing not to, you know, reveal it. I 750 00:36:36,327 --> 00:36:39,807 Speaker 5: get the sense that Angelina Julie is a phenomenal mother, 751 00:36:40,687 --> 00:36:44,767 Speaker 5: and I feel like she would disadvantage herself if it 752 00:36:44,847 --> 00:36:47,927 Speaker 5: meant protecting her children. I don't get that same sense 753 00:36:47,967 --> 00:36:48,927 Speaker 5: about Brad Pitt. No. 754 00:36:49,527 --> 00:36:51,287 Speaker 2: I have to be on the record that I have 755 00:36:51,487 --> 00:36:54,527 Speaker 2: finally in my heart canceled him Mia After. 756 00:36:54,327 --> 00:36:56,527 Speaker 5: All this what does that look like? Though? So it 757 00:36:56,567 --> 00:37:01,287 Speaker 5: looks like taking the posters off your wall, because here's 758 00:37:01,287 --> 00:37:02,327 Speaker 5: the thing about cancelation. 759 00:37:02,447 --> 00:37:04,447 Speaker 2: MEA and I argue about cancelation quite a lot. But 760 00:37:05,447 --> 00:37:07,967 Speaker 2: if you really like somebody's work and you've admired them 761 00:37:07,967 --> 00:37:10,127 Speaker 2: and then the shit comes out about them, sometimes it 762 00:37:10,167 --> 00:37:12,487 Speaker 2: can take some time for that to sink in and 763 00:37:12,527 --> 00:37:14,767 Speaker 2: then you're like, Oh, the way that I know I've 764 00:37:14,767 --> 00:37:16,847 Speaker 2: canceled him in my heart now is that when I 765 00:37:16,887 --> 00:37:19,687 Speaker 2: see him now in things, and I'm on the record 766 00:37:19,687 --> 00:37:21,567 Speaker 2: of being a big brad Pit fan out loud is 767 00:37:21,527 --> 00:37:24,887 Speaker 2: always sending me brad Pit videos when I see him now, 768 00:37:24,927 --> 00:37:28,087 Speaker 2: particularly this version of him, not the young version of him. 769 00:37:28,727 --> 00:37:30,607 Speaker 2: I watched the trailer of the movie that he and 770 00:37:30,647 --> 00:37:34,167 Speaker 2: Cludey are in. It's called Wolves, and I bet it's good, Like, 771 00:37:34,167 --> 00:37:35,967 Speaker 2: I bet it is, I bet they're funny. I bet 772 00:37:36,007 --> 00:37:38,207 Speaker 2: it's all that stuff. It's like a Buddy movie, hit Man, 773 00:37:38,207 --> 00:37:41,087 Speaker 2: Buddy movie, whatever. But I was like, I got the 774 00:37:41,127 --> 00:37:45,047 Speaker 2: ick and that happened. Similarly, there's a musician I used 775 00:37:45,047 --> 00:37:47,207 Speaker 2: to love called Ryan Adams. I've seen him in concert 776 00:37:47,247 --> 00:37:51,127 Speaker 2: a million times, and when he was canceled, I was like, Oh, 777 00:37:51,127 --> 00:37:53,567 Speaker 2: I shouldn't listen anymore. But the thing is is that 778 00:37:53,647 --> 00:37:55,487 Speaker 2: I still love the music. But then it sort of 779 00:37:55,527 --> 00:37:57,887 Speaker 2: seeps in and you're like, I can't listen anymore because 780 00:37:57,927 --> 00:38:00,727 Speaker 2: the person who I thought was writing those songs and 781 00:38:00,767 --> 00:38:03,767 Speaker 2: singing those songs, it's not who I thought you were. 782 00:38:03,807 --> 00:38:06,607 Speaker 2: And now I can't listen without going So when the 783 00:38:06,647 --> 00:38:09,887 Speaker 2: it comes, you can't do the IgG. If you want 784 00:38:09,927 --> 00:38:12,327 Speaker 2: to listen to some more on this story, The Spill 785 00:38:12,447 --> 00:38:15,927 Speaker 2: our entertainment podcast, our daily entertainment podcast, is covering it too. 786 00:38:16,327 --> 00:38:18,327 Speaker 5: Question for the group, is it too soon to joke 787 00:38:18,367 --> 00:38:23,527 Speaker 5: about COVID? And also, if you've got COVID, do you 788 00:38:23,567 --> 00:38:28,807 Speaker 5: still stay home? Yes, well, my parents are on the road. 789 00:38:29,127 --> 00:38:31,967 Speaker 5: Well they're in like some outback place with COVID. No 790 00:38:32,007 --> 00:38:34,847 Speaker 5: one really cares about their COVID. I mean, I care 791 00:38:34,887 --> 00:38:37,727 Speaker 5: about their COVID, but they're, you know, renting this little 792 00:38:37,807 --> 00:38:40,687 Speaker 5: hut somewhere. They were leaving and they were like, oh, 793 00:38:40,687 --> 00:38:42,527 Speaker 5: but we've had COVID and do you need And they're like, oh, no, 794 00:38:42,567 --> 00:38:44,287 Speaker 5: I don't worry. We just wipe it down, like you 795 00:38:44,447 --> 00:38:47,927 Speaker 5: remember when there were people in hazmat suits. Anyway, we 796 00:38:48,007 --> 00:38:50,447 Speaker 5: had a conversation about this on a segment on our 797 00:38:50,487 --> 00:38:56,407 Speaker 5: subs episode because Lady Gaga made a very scandalous admission. Well, 798 00:38:56,447 --> 00:38:58,927 Speaker 5: some people were just like, that's long, that's funny. Other 799 00:38:58,967 --> 00:39:01,487 Speaker 5: people were very upset about it. Here's a little sneak peak. 800 00:39:02,127 --> 00:39:05,647 Speaker 7: I think she was being cavalier about it, and I 801 00:39:05,687 --> 00:39:06,127 Speaker 7: think that. 802 00:39:06,207 --> 00:39:07,687 Speaker 5: Do you think it was, Alex. Do you think she 803 00:39:07,727 --> 00:39:08,647 Speaker 5: said it like a flex? 804 00:39:09,487 --> 00:39:12,887 Speaker 7: The look on her face was can you believe I 805 00:39:12,887 --> 00:39:15,727 Speaker 7: did a quarter of these concerts with COVID. It's the 806 00:39:15,767 --> 00:39:18,967 Speaker 7: one thing. Whether or not she literally transmitted COVID. I 807 00:39:19,007 --> 00:39:23,127 Speaker 7: mean maybe they had incredible constraints, which meant that she 808 00:39:23,207 --> 00:39:27,127 Speaker 7: didn't whatever normalizing it. And that's what she really did, 809 00:39:27,287 --> 00:39:29,447 Speaker 7: was she went I was able to get up and 810 00:39:29,527 --> 00:39:31,687 Speaker 7: do a concept and do all of that with COVID. 811 00:39:31,887 --> 00:39:35,087 Speaker 7: I don't know if that's like a great message to normalize. 812 00:39:35,527 --> 00:39:40,207 Speaker 5: We're going back to the soldier soldier runs, and I 813 00:39:40,247 --> 00:39:43,127 Speaker 5: think that we're also judgmental, whether we admit it or not, 814 00:39:43,767 --> 00:39:46,607 Speaker 5: of people who take COVID more seriously or who are 815 00:39:46,607 --> 00:39:49,447 Speaker 5: harder hit by COVID than other people. A link to 816 00:39:49,487 --> 00:39:52,527 Speaker 5: that episode and our conversation will be in the show notes. 817 00:39:53,007 --> 00:39:55,367 Speaker 2: Java bas thank you, thank you, thank you for filling 818 00:39:55,407 --> 00:39:58,727 Speaker 2: in for our Jesse Stevens. My pleasure and thank you 819 00:39:58,767 --> 00:40:00,607 Speaker 2: to all out louders who've listened to us today and 820 00:40:00,647 --> 00:40:01,847 Speaker 2: our brilliant production team for. 821 00:40:01,767 --> 00:40:03,727 Speaker 5: Helping us put this show together. We will see you 822 00:40:03,767 --> 00:40:09,247 Speaker 5: all tomorrow. Why shout out to any Mum of Mes 823 00:40:09,327 --> 00:40:11,967 Speaker 5: drivers listening. If you love the show and want to 824 00:40:12,007 --> 00:40:14,647 Speaker 5: support us as well, subscribing to Mom and Miya is 825 00:40:14,687 --> 00:40:16,647 Speaker 5: the very best way to do so. There is a 826 00:40:16,727 --> 00:40:21,487 Speaker 5: link in the episode description. Do you know as we're 827 00:40:21,527 --> 00:40:25,127 Speaker 5: recording this, Jesse is taking off at the beginning of 828 00:40:25,367 --> 00:40:28,367 Speaker 5: I think it's like a forty five hour stop journey 829 00:40:28,927 --> 00:40:29,847 Speaker 5: with a ten month old. 830 00:40:30,287 --> 00:40:34,367 Speaker 2: That's hell hell on wheels, literally, hell on wings. I 831 00:40:34,407 --> 00:40:36,687 Speaker 2: bet she's done that thing where she's got lollibags for 832 00:40:36,727 --> 00:40:37,687 Speaker 2: the other people to be like. 833 00:40:37,727 --> 00:40:41,127 Speaker 5: I'm sorry about that. Sounds like something Jesse said, I 834 00:40:41,207 --> 00:40:41,687 Speaker 5: might do it. 835 00:40:41,967 --> 00:40:43,807 Speaker 1: I'm about to do a six hour flight and I'm 836 00:40:43,847 --> 00:40:47,127 Speaker 1: dreading that. Yes, let alone a forty four hour flight. 837 00:40:47,207 --> 00:40:49,287 Speaker 5: Apparently what they say is don't start walking up and 838 00:40:49,327 --> 00:40:52,007 Speaker 5: down the aisles, because once you start, you have to 839 00:40:52,567 --> 00:40:55,847 Speaker 5: you're going to do. You have wants to be suffer. 840 00:40:56,007 --> 00:40:58,007 Speaker 2: You have to leave that till towards the end. 841 00:40:58,167 --> 00:40:59,447 Speaker 5: Oh well, thoughts I pressed with Jesse