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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Quickie. Bullying is a topic that's been talked about

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Speaker 1: and dissected. Strategies have been employed, the worst case scenarios

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Speaker 1: have been shared to try and get through to those

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Speaker 1: involved to explain just how serious implications are. But still,

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Speaker 1: it seems Ossie schools are struggling with how to handle

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Speaker 1: it when kids are targeted in the school yard. This

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Speaker 1: issue roared back into the headlines recently when an Adelaide

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Speaker 1: mum stormed into her daughter's classroom to confront her alleged bully.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to have to bury it my child.

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Speaker 1: But while her actions seem to have split opinion between

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Speaker 1: those cheering her on and those who say it's never

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Speaker 1: that simple, we still don't know how to put a

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Speaker 1: stop to bullying before we speak to parents who admit

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Speaker 1: they have been pushed to their limits when it comes

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Speaker 1: to their child being bullied. Here's the news headlines from

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Speaker 1: the Cookie Newsroom Thursday, February thirteen. Convicted killer Chris Dawson,

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Speaker 1: the subject of the Teacher's Pet podcast, who was found

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Speaker 1: guilty of murdering his then wife Lynette in nineteen eighty two,

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Speaker 1: has lodged a special leave application in the High Court

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Speaker 1: in an attempt to secure a new trial. Dawson was

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Speaker 1: convicted in twenty twenty two, forty years after Lynette went missing.

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Speaker 1: Her body has never been found, and he continues to

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Speaker 1: fight the decision through the court system, including an unsuccessful appeal.

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Speaker 1: This High Court application claims Dawson has suffered significant forensic

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Speaker 1: disadvantage due to the forty year gap between the crime

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Speaker 1: and the conviction, and the fact that key witnesses are

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Speaker 1: no longer alive to give testimony. Dawson told police at

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Speaker 1: the time of Lynette's disappearance that she was unhappy and

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Speaker 1: just wanted time away from their marriage. He'd begun a

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Speaker 1: relationship with one of his high school students, who eventually

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Speaker 1: moved in with him. Donald Trump has posted on social

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Speaker 1: media that he and Russian President Vladimir Putin have agreed

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Speaker 1: to begin negotiations to end the war in Uka. Trump

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Speaker 1: posted that he and Putin have decided to work together

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Speaker 1: very closely, the announcement coming after a successful prisoner swap

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Speaker 1: between the two countries that saw American school teacher Mark Vogel,

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Speaker 1: who's been in detention for more than three years, released

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Speaker 1: in exchange for convicted Russian cyber criminal Alexander Vinnick. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the head of the Government Efficiency Department, Elon Musk, has

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Speaker 1: appeared in the Oval office at the White House, defending

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Speaker 1: the extensive cuts he's making across the US public service

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Speaker 1: and also admitting that some mistakes have been made. Trump

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Speaker 1: praised Musk's work, saying he's found shocking evidence of wasteful spending,

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Speaker 1: signing an executive order to further expand Musk's influence and

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Speaker 1: to continue downsizing the federal workforce. Musk responded to questions

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Speaker 1: about concerns he's amassing unaccountable power with very little transparency,

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Speaker 1: saying he's an open book and joking that the scrutiny

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Speaker 1: over his role in the Trump administration had become like

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Speaker 1: a daily proctology exam. Musk did admit that comments that

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Speaker 1: were made over the US spending fifty million dollars providing

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Speaker 1: condoms to Gaza was wrong, saying no one can bat

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Speaker 1: a thousand and that he would move very quickly to

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Speaker 1: fix his mistakes. A federal Court of Appeals has upheld

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Speaker 1: the conviction against R and B singer R Kelly, who

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Speaker 1: has found guilty of sex trafficking and racketeering. The court

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Speaker 1: rejected Kelly's claims that the federal prosecution failed to prove

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Speaker 1: he led a racketeering scheme where he recruited women and

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Speaker 1: underage girls for sex and then violated several victims. The

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Speaker 1: judge said that prosecutors had supplied extensive evidence of how

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Speaker 1: Kelly ensnared young women and girls, controlling their lives and

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Speaker 1: ensuring their compliance using both verbal and physical abuse, threats

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Speaker 1: of black mail, and humiliation. Kelly is serving thirty years

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Speaker 1: behind bars after being convicted in twenty twenty one. A

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Speaker 1: giant schnauzo called Monty has won this year's Westminster Kennel

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Speaker 1: Club Dog Show, taking out the Best in Show ribbon.

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Speaker 1: Monty beat out two and a half thousand other dogs

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Speaker 1: and a tough group of finalists including Neil the Bichon,

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Speaker 1: Frieze arch of the Sky Terrier, Bourbon the Whip and

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Speaker 1: Freddie the Spring of Spaniel to take out the competition

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Speaker 1: and become the first Giant Schnauzer to win in the

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Speaker 1: ninety five years since the breed was first entered. Monte's

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Speaker 1: human told the media before the final that he's just

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Speaker 1: a really cool dog and that this would be his

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Speaker 1: final appearance at Westminster. The five year old hanging up

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Speaker 1: his ribbons to go into retirement. That's what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the world today. Next, bullying is back in the headlines.

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Speaker 1: But does a parent stepping in make a difference to

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Speaker 1: their child situation or make a complex situation worse? We

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Speaker 1: hear from both sides of the argument. Recently, footage was

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Speaker 1: shared of an Adelaide mum, frustrated with the alleged lack

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Speaker 1: of action from the school her daughter attends to deal

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Speaker 1: with the case of bullying that she decided to confront

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Speaker 1: her child's bully herself. If you miss what she says there,

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Speaker 1: she tells the year eight student, you ever effing mess

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Speaker 1: with my daughter again, I'll slit your effing throat. She

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Speaker 1: goes on to say, I'll be waiting for you. The

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Speaker 1: comments section is divided between those who say they would

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Speaker 1: do the exact same thing if it was their child

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Speaker 1: in the firing line of a bully, while others say

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Speaker 1: this is no way to treat another child, regardless of

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Speaker 1: their behavior. Recent data reveals a concerning picture of bullying

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Speaker 1: in Australian schools, with our students amongst the most bullied

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Speaker 1: in the world. Approximately one in six experience bullying at school.

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Speaker 1: For students age twelve to thirteen, seventy percent experienced at

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Speaker 1: least one bullying like behavior a year. Of those affected,

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Speaker 1: forty three percent faced bullying once a week or more frequently.

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Speaker 1: The issue is particularly prevalent in years four to nine,

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Speaker 1: where one in four students experience is bullying every few

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Speaker 1: weeks or more often, with peak periods occurring in years

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Speaker 1: five to eight. Verbal bullying remains the most common form

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Speaker 1: at fifty percent, followed by physical bullying at twenty percent.

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Speaker 1: The digital landscape has also introduced new challenges, with fifty

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Speaker 1: three percent of young Aussies reporting experiences of cyber bullying.

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Speaker 1: Gender differences are also notable, with girls more likely to

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Speaker 1: be targeted than boys twenty four percent versus seventeen percent.

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Speaker 1: Boys though are less likely to seek help, with thirty

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Speaker 1: three percent not asking anyone for assistance compared to twenty

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Speaker 1: three percent of girls, and when trying to get help

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Speaker 1: with their issues. Kids tend to turn to their friends first,

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Speaker 1: their parents second, and then their teachers. But what if

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Speaker 1: all that asking for help does nothing to stop the

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Speaker 1: actual abuse. Sometimes parents feel like they need to step

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Speaker 1: in for Susie, She says, they tried speaking to the

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Speaker 1: school about her daughter being bullied, but when that didn't

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Speaker 1: seem to help, they intervened.

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Speaker 4: Although indirectly, school conversations went nowhere. The only solution was

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Speaker 4: for our daughter to sit in the library while the

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Speaker 4: boy received zero consequences. So my husband told her next

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Speaker 4: time to punch him as hard as she could. We

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Speaker 4: told her she wouldn't be in trouble from us. She

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Speaker 4: was suspended for the rest of the week. He never

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Speaker 4: harassed her again.

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Speaker 1: Ash admitted that it took her mum to confront her

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Speaker 1: bully herself for it to all stop.

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Speaker 5: After six years of school yard bullying with nothing being done,

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Speaker 5: Mom took matters into her own hands. This was after

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Speaker 5: the bully sat behind me and cut my hair in class.

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Speaker 5: She basically said, if you come near my child again,

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Speaker 5: I'll be reporting you to the police. It made me

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Speaker 5: feel seen and they finally left me alone.

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Speaker 1: But Libby says she's been that parent confronting her child's bully,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't have the outcome she hoped.

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Speaker 3: For My daughter, who was born male. At the time,

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Speaker 3: she was still a boy, and she was a sweet, sensitive,

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Speaker 3: quirky little thing. One day, I'm at school. She's lining

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Speaker 3: up out the front with the other kids in prep.

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Speaker 3: He was standing in the line next to this enormous

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Speaker 3: boy who was just making her life a misery. He

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Speaker 3: was hiding her bag, he was pulling her hay, he

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Speaker 3: was tripping her over. And I could see this happening,

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Speaker 3: and I'm standing back, not wanting to intervene, waiting for

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Speaker 3: someone to do something. No one came. She was too

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Speaker 3: embarrassed to do anything. She just went into fawn and freeze.

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Speaker 3: And I got right up close to this kid. I

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Speaker 3: got down to his level and I looked straight in

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Speaker 3: the eye and I said, see him, I'm pointing out

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Speaker 3: my child. He's with me. If you mess with him,

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Speaker 3: I will mess with you. Sadly, that didn't stop the bullying.

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Speaker 1: Nicole is representing the entire other side of the story,

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Speaker 1: having worked in schools and seen bullying happen right in

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Speaker 1: front of her, She says, you never truly know what

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Speaker 1: has happened, even though you might have your suspicions.

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Speaker 2: As a teacher, like often you know which kid is

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Speaker 2: targeting which kid, it's very hard to act on it

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Speaker 2: or without solid proof. But I guess what I wanted

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Speaker 2: to share and raise something to consider is the fact

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Speaker 2: that every parent that I have had come into a

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Speaker 2: school accusing a child of bullying their child has been

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Speaker 2: absolutely sure that that is the case and that is

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Speaker 2: the only thing that is happening. And also, almost every

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Speaker 2: single bullying accusation I have fielded the bully in the story,

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Speaker 2: their own parent has come into the school and accused

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Speaker 2: the victim of being the bully. So that's one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons is enormously difficult and frustrating to navigate accusations

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Speaker 2: of bullying in the school is that without solid evidence,

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Speaker 2: and it's very very hard to get solid evidence without

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Speaker 2: cameras all over the school most of the time, it's

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Speaker 2: really really hard to prove it. And what worries me about,

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Speaker 2: okaying the kind of behavior we saw in the Adelaide

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Speaker 2: school is that, yes, the parents whose children are actually

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Speaker 2: being bullied are absolutely justified when they're exhausted and the

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Speaker 2: feel that they've got no other options to go in

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Speaker 2: and try and take matters into their own hands. I

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Speaker 2: think what we have to factor in is that not

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Speaker 2: everyone can be right about their bullying accusations all of

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Speaker 2: the time. And if you've got two parties and they're

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Speaker 2: both insistent that the other kid is the bully, then

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Speaker 2: what's preventing every parent from coming in and assaulting or

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Speaker 2: harassing a child.

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Speaker 1: So whether you our team confront the bully or not,

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Speaker 1: there are children involved learning how to model their behavior

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Speaker 1: from ours. So what did that incident of the mum

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Speaker 1: confronting a bully teach them? Carlie Dobe is the director

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Speaker 1: of the Australian Association of Psychologists. Carlie, this is turning

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Speaker 1: out to be such a difficult topic to navigate because

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Speaker 1: you have a woman who's gone to the aid of

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Speaker 1: her child, who she's since said in subsequent interviews that

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Speaker 1: she said her daughter had been talking about ending her

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Speaker 1: own life over this bullying. In this case, do we

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Speaker 1: see this form of vigilantism as acceptable because she was

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Speaker 1: in fact fighting for her child's life.

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Speaker 6: It's such an awful position to be in, and I

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Speaker 6: really have so much compassion in my heart for that family.

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Speaker 6: I think, unfortunately, in experiences like this, there's no clear

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Speaker 6: right or wrong answer. And I say this because hundreds

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Speaker 6: of stories about how underresourced and stressed and stretched schools

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Speaker 6: and teachers are. We know that they miss some things.

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Speaker 6: They maybe can't be there for all students at all

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Speaker 6: times in the way that would be conducive for the

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Speaker 6: student's mental health. We know that some parents of children

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Speaker 6: who might be engaging in bullying behaviors maybe don't catch

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Speaker 6: their child and support their child to change that behavior.

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Speaker 6: And then we have a parent who's fearful that she

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Speaker 6: will lose her daughter. Yeah, it's just an awful situation.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about child psychology for a moment. They

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Speaker 1: get such an education now around bullying and the consequences

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Speaker 1: and potential reasons why people bully, and how to deal

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Speaker 1: with bullies. Why does this problem not go away?

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Speaker 6: I think unfortunately, we know how damaging bullying can be,

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Speaker 6: and we teach young people this, and their brains are

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Speaker 6: still developing. Their theory of mind is still developing where

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Speaker 6: they understand this in practice, But they also have that

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Speaker 6: tendency just to say things that might be on their

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Speaker 6: mind because maybe developmentally, they're not where we are or

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Speaker 6: where older adolescents are. Not an excuse but an explanation

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Speaker 6: developmental wise, about why this behavior isn't changing as rapidly

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Speaker 6: as we would like it to.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about what behavior modeling has happened in

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Speaker 1: this particular instance with the mum confronting the alleged bully.

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Speaker 1: What behavior modeling and what does it teach the alleged

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Speaker 1: bully who's been confronted by an adult in that situation.

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Speaker 1: Is it a case of finally realizing that there's consequences

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Speaker 1: and maybe that behavior changes, or are they learning that

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Speaker 1: bullying back is the answer?

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Speaker 6: It could be a bit of both. Really, it really

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Speaker 6: depends on how the child integrates this message. The child

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Speaker 6: might be scared, might change their behavior immediately, But we

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Speaker 6: also know that the message this might send is that

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Speaker 6: teachers and the principle they aren't going to step in

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Speaker 6: and intervene. And I sometimes worry about that, What.

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Speaker 1: About the behavior that we're modeling and what we're teaching

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Speaker 1: the victim in this situation, because it could be a

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Speaker 1: case of I finally have an adult in my corner

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Speaker 1: who's helping me, and maybe that does build a bit

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Speaker 1: of confidence, But also does that then stop a child

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Speaker 1: from being confident in handling these situations because they feel

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Speaker 1: like mum or dad will just step in for me.

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Speaker 6: It definitely can, and again there's no clear straight answer

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Speaker 6: for this. I guess if we're thinking of this child

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Speaker 6: in particular, if she was talking about suicide or self harm,

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Speaker 6: she probably isn't able to think of things past that,

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Speaker 6: past the paying, past the fee she's experiencing. But other

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Speaker 6: kids who might not have as serious of an issue,

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Speaker 6: they might just think, well, mum and dad will solve it.

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Speaker 6: The teachers might not, that other child's parents might not,

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Speaker 6: but my mum and dad will, And that's not always

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Speaker 6: a bad thing. But I think when we're talking about

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Speaker 6: interpersonal relationship development and conflict resolution skills, sometimes that can

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Speaker 6: impact the development of this.

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Speaker 1: Carlie, what message would you have for parents who might

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Speaker 1: have seen this news story and gone that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: I want to do. I want to go into a

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Speaker 1: school and confront my child's bully because it feels like

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Speaker 1: all my other avenues have been exhausted and nothing changes.

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Speaker 1: What advice would you have for their mind being able

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Speaker 1: to really stop and think about their actions in this situation.

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Speaker 6: Against such a difficult situation, I would encourage them to

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Speaker 6: consider all of the options available to them and exhaust them. First.

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Speaker 6: Can you talk to a wellbeing officer or the teachers

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Speaker 6: and the principle Sometimes that also means making a complaint

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Speaker 6: if you're not satisfied that any action is being taken

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Speaker 6: to keep your child safe or to ensure that their

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Speaker 6: experience at school is joyful and fun and safe. Is

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Speaker 6: it possible that you talk to the other parent to

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Speaker 6: explain what is happening between the two children or the

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Speaker 6: multiple children, and explain the impact on your child, because again,

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Speaker 6: we can't assume that everything is understood and known. I

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Speaker 6: think confronting a young person has its own risks as well,

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Speaker 6: because again, an adult is much bigger than a child.

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Speaker 6: Even when the behavior is so scary, so annoying, so harmful,

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Speaker 6: we also need to think about how big we are

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Speaker 6: and how that might come across. It's so difficult.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 1: us today. The quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy

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Speaker 1: and our executive producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by

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Speaker 1: Lou Hill.