WEBVTT - Suddenly Irritated By Absolutely Everyone 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:14.807 You're listening to a mother mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges 0:00:14.847 --> 0:00:17.567 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.647 --> 0:00:24.567 is recorded on. No one likes an angry woman, not 0:00:24.767 --> 0:00:31.527 me and not you. So screechy, so shrill, so alienating, 0:00:32.327 --> 0:00:36.767 so annoying. Turn her down, turn her off, kick her out. 0:00:37.567 --> 0:00:41.327 Problem is, friends, Rage is a wave that women have 0:00:41.407 --> 0:00:46.167 been trying to ride, tame quiet for a lifetime. Some 0:00:46.327 --> 0:00:48.887 have more reason to be furious than others, and those 0:00:48.927 --> 0:00:52.527 women obviously are the ones. We tolerate it from the least. 0:00:53.327 --> 0:00:59.527 But in midlife rage crashes over many of us at force, uncontainable, unstoppable, 0:00:59.807 --> 0:01:03.727 all powerful. I woke up one day and even my 0:01:03.887 --> 0:01:10.127 hair was irritated. Furious at every inconvenience, rageful at every injustice, 0:01:10.407 --> 0:01:13.367 impatient with everything from the kettle to the Prime minister. 0:01:14.047 --> 0:01:17.367 Incapable of forming the smiling mask of a patient mother, 0:01:17.847 --> 0:01:21.807 respectful employee, supportive partner, dutiful daughter. 0:01:22.207 --> 0:01:24.287 I think on screen, come on, stop this. 0:01:24.327 --> 0:01:31.167 E My midlife fury was bursting out and splattering walls. 0:01:31.647 --> 0:01:37.527 It frightened me. I needed it fixed. The doctor's offices 0:01:37.567 --> 0:01:40.327 of Australia are full of women asking for their rage 0:01:40.367 --> 0:01:45.407 to be reined in so we can get on with things, working, caring, 0:01:45.767 --> 0:01:49.047 making the world turn. I wasn't the only one who 0:01:49.087 --> 0:01:52.927 was frightened. The power of female rage has been terrifying 0:01:52.967 --> 0:01:58.887 for millennia. It's why hysterical women have been demonized, locked away, 0:01:59.247 --> 0:02:03.647 even lost their lives. But is anger really that unreasonable 0:02:03.647 --> 0:02:06.567 a response to forty odd years as a woman. Is 0:02:06.607 --> 0:02:11.127 our midlife anger purely hormonal, tomatic of an estrogen plunge? 0:02:11.327 --> 0:02:15.567 Or are we just sick of this shit? After all, 0:02:15.687 --> 0:02:18.527 there's so much to be rageful about, after decades of 0:02:18.567 --> 0:02:22.847 making nice, of being overlooked or dismissed, oggled or rejected, 0:02:23.207 --> 0:02:25.927 of trying to sneak under the radar of dangerous men, 0:02:26.847 --> 0:02:30.207 years and years of sitting pretty and nodding politely and 0:02:30.287 --> 0:02:35.887 apologizing and forgiving and peacemaking and saying it's fine, I'm fine, 0:02:36.007 --> 0:02:39.527 it's fine, and making everybody else's lives run smoothly while 0:02:39.567 --> 0:02:43.647 yours spotters and strains. And now here you are, at 0:02:43.687 --> 0:02:47.447 your most wise and powerful, and yet you have never 0:02:47.527 --> 0:02:52.807 been so pitied. Oh dear, look at you, still around, 0:02:53.287 --> 0:02:57.607 still here, still striving for relevance, still having opinions and 0:02:57.687 --> 0:03:03.407 wearing clothes and having a face so cute A midlife 0:03:03.407 --> 0:03:06.287 women angry? Or are they just shouting so you notice 0:03:06.327 --> 0:03:10.527 them like a poltergeist flinging vases around the world. Is 0:03:10.607 --> 0:03:15.407 it the estrogen or is it the universe? Unclear? But look, 0:03:15.767 --> 0:03:18.367 I'm sorry this has all sounded a bit angry, hasn't 0:03:18.367 --> 0:03:22.607 it a bit rageful? I do apologize. No one likes 0:03:22.607 --> 0:03:30.167 an angry woman, especially not me. Hello, I am Holly Wainwright, 0:03:30.327 --> 0:03:35.447 and I am mid midlife, mid family, mid meltdown some 0:03:35.607 --> 0:03:39.087 days on mid our podcast for gen X women who 0:03:39.127 --> 0:03:42.207 are anything. But you might have heard, and if you haven't, 0:03:42.367 --> 0:03:45.087 just have a little scroll back that we've already talked 0:03:45.127 --> 0:03:49.167 candidly about joy, about pleasure, about self care. We've been 0:03:49.207 --> 0:03:52.087 honest about money, and about booze, and about bodies and 0:03:52.167 --> 0:03:56.407 about kids. But today, friends, I invite you to do 0:03:56.487 --> 0:04:02.567 something legitimately scary, something that's going to feel weird, rebellious, ugly. 0:04:03.287 --> 0:04:06.207 I invite you to lay down your smiling mask and 0:04:06.287 --> 0:04:10.447 embrace that furious little goblin that's curled up in because 0:04:10.487 --> 0:04:16.727 today we're talking about rage. It's okay, you don't have 0:04:16.767 --> 0:04:19.207 to pretend here. We know that being an angry woman 0:04:19.367 --> 0:04:22.607 is the worst. But we also know that as we 0:04:22.687 --> 0:04:25.847 keep sawing into mid territory, it becomes harder on some 0:04:26.007 --> 0:04:28.607 days more than others, to pretend that we have chill. 0:04:29.247 --> 0:04:32.967 We have no chill, friends, when our rollercoaster hormones and 0:04:33.007 --> 0:04:35.687 our busy lives are clanging into each other at speed, 0:04:36.407 --> 0:04:39.967 and today's guest has no time for the it's fine mask. 0:04:40.527 --> 0:04:43.207 She has been through too much and lives with a lot, 0:04:43.607 --> 0:04:46.007 and has sought the wisdom to grasp the damage that 0:04:46.127 --> 0:04:48.687 chill can do to us if we don't sometimes pass 0:04:48.727 --> 0:04:53.447 the mic to our furious little goblins. Jacinta Parsons wrote 0:04:53.447 --> 0:04:57.127 a wonderful, sharp and clever book about midlife called A 0:04:57.207 --> 0:05:00.847 Question of Age. I inhaled it before we spoke, and 0:05:00.887 --> 0:05:03.007 I urge you to do that too if you enjoy 0:05:03.047 --> 0:05:07.087 what's about to happen. Jacinta is an ABC Radio presenter, 0:05:07.207 --> 0:05:10.087 a writer, a journalist, a midlife woman who's got a 0:05:10.127 --> 0:05:13.287 big career and it's also a mother and also lives 0:05:13.287 --> 0:05:16.807 with a chronic illness. We talk about that she has 0:05:16.887 --> 0:05:18.767 over the past few years made a series of big 0:05:18.847 --> 0:05:21.087 changes to her life to live a better mid one, 0:05:21.447 --> 0:05:25.567 one where she's not pretending about relationships, about work, about 0:05:25.567 --> 0:05:29.207 her health. In this conversation, we talk about those moments 0:05:29.247 --> 0:05:32.007 when you're suddenly jolted by how the world sees you, 0:05:32.607 --> 0:05:36.607 how to distinguish between an impulsive hormonal episode and a big, 0:05:36.727 --> 0:05:40.087 serious change you need to make, and why exactly it's 0:05:40.087 --> 0:05:44.047 so complicated dealing with the transition from young to old. 0:05:45.687 --> 0:05:49.047 Jacinta's book is brilliant about rage and plenty of other things, 0:05:49.287 --> 0:05:53.447 but it's not rageful, and nor is she. Rather, she 0:05:53.647 --> 0:05:56.847 is a delight and we had the best time talking. 0:05:57.407 --> 0:05:59.287 So put down the mask and join us, me and 0:05:59.327 --> 0:06:05.727 just into Parsons to talk about anger. Since I have 0:06:05.767 --> 0:06:09.647 a question, right, I want to know if midlife women 0:06:09.767 --> 0:06:12.887 are full of rage really or are we just shouting 0:06:12.927 --> 0:06:16.727 because nobody can see us anymore and invisible creatures have 0:06:16.807 --> 0:06:19.407 to make noise a bit like a Poltergeists. We're throwing 0:06:19.487 --> 0:06:24.207 vases across the room, Like, are we really rageful? Or 0:06:24.287 --> 0:06:26.327 is it just that we need to shout to be heard? 0:06:27.047 --> 0:06:30.007 I love that. I think it's two things. I think 0:06:30.167 --> 0:06:35.127 one hundred percent correct. We've become ghost like suddenly we're 0:06:35.167 --> 0:06:38.847 see through and it is a bit poltergeist like where 0:06:39.207 --> 0:06:41.647 we're turning on lights to try and get the attention 0:06:41.967 --> 0:06:44.407 of people who live in our homes with us. Perhaps 0:06:45.047 --> 0:06:47.767 because right across the country when I've spoken to women 0:06:47.807 --> 0:06:53.087 about this, the invisibility thing happens actually earlier than I 0:06:53.127 --> 0:06:56.847 think we would imagine it does. The invisibility is actually 0:06:56.927 --> 0:07:01.567 a really serious issue for so many cohorts of women, 0:07:01.647 --> 0:07:05.687 and it's actually dangerous. And that's where I think legitimate 0:07:05.807 --> 0:07:10.367 rage is as well. We have rage for the fact 0:07:10.407 --> 0:07:13.087 that we are not heard and that we are not seen, 0:07:13.287 --> 0:07:14.607 and that we are not safe. 0:07:15.087 --> 0:07:18.327 That is one hundred percent true. It's often the first 0:07:18.367 --> 0:07:22.127 whiff of it that women get is about a visible invisibility. 0:07:22.967 --> 0:07:26.287 I really loved the point you made in your book 0:07:26.407 --> 0:07:29.367 because it's tied back in a thread through the sort 0:07:29.367 --> 0:07:34.167 of shock of our visibility that happens so quickly in 0:07:34.207 --> 0:07:37.807 our teenageyears. And you write about that as being a 0:07:37.967 --> 0:07:40.487 moment or not not even necessarily teenageers, but our young 0:07:40.527 --> 0:07:42.607 ears that you're sort of walking down the street and 0:07:42.647 --> 0:07:44.847 it's almost like the ground is shifting beneath you, and 0:07:44.887 --> 0:07:49.367 you can feel a force moving. Do you think that 0:07:49.367 --> 0:07:51.127 that's one of the things is that we get this 0:07:51.207 --> 0:07:53.727 shock of visibility and we learn how to deal with it, 0:07:53.847 --> 0:07:56.087 and then it disappears and we're discombobulated. 0:07:56.567 --> 0:08:00.087 Yeah, and I think it's even more than just sort 0:08:00.167 --> 0:08:04.847 of acknowledging that suddenly we've become objectified and sexualized as 0:08:04.847 --> 0:08:08.527 young as eleven. Apparently the research tells us that girls 0:08:08.607 --> 0:08:12.167 that young are being objectified on our streets. But what 0:08:12.247 --> 0:08:16.047 it does is it creates for us this sense of ownership, 0:08:16.567 --> 0:08:20.887 really unconscious half the time, very covert, but this idea 0:08:20.887 --> 0:08:23.167 that we're owned by the eyes that look at us 0:08:23.167 --> 0:08:26.967 from the outside and we're valued that way and truly 0:08:27.207 --> 0:08:31.127 our safety, our currency, our ability to get jobs, all 0:08:31.167 --> 0:08:35.887 the things that we have found ourselves suddenly in the 0:08:35.887 --> 0:08:40.167 world doing changes. I think it's easy to sort of 0:08:40.447 --> 0:08:44.207 discount this as kind of a vanity exercise of oh, 0:08:44.247 --> 0:08:46.447 now I'm not getting tutored on the street. What this 0:08:46.527 --> 0:08:49.767 really is, though, is the changing regard that we have 0:08:49.887 --> 0:08:53.767 when our sexual utility changes, like when we're not as 0:08:53.847 --> 0:08:58.687 desirable anymore in that particular way, then the interest of 0:08:58.727 --> 0:09:01.567 the world in us is diminished. And I think that 0:09:01.927 --> 0:09:04.047 is really at the heart of it, and that's what 0:09:04.087 --> 0:09:07.007 ties us to that little girl. Is neither of these 0:09:07.047 --> 0:09:08.447 states are wanted. 0:09:09.807 --> 0:09:13.247 What was interesting to me. You write an anecdote in 0:09:13.287 --> 0:09:16.407 your book about the moment that you realized you were 0:09:16.447 --> 0:09:20.327 old in this way, that kind of visibility, the street invisibility, 0:09:20.367 --> 0:09:21.927 if you like, Tell me about when you and your 0:09:21.927 --> 0:09:25.207 friends were walking through the city on a beautiful evening. 0:09:26.127 --> 0:09:30.047 Because I think so many women have this experience too, 0:09:30.247 --> 0:09:33.727 where for so long, I guess, you know, regardless of 0:09:33.807 --> 0:09:36.887 how the feminism arrives in you, there is definitely a 0:09:37.047 --> 0:09:40.087 rolled eyes. Oh god, what we have to deal with 0:09:40.127 --> 0:09:43.327 on the streets as young girls, you know, and it's like, oh, 0:09:43.407 --> 0:09:45.967 I got whistled. I can't walk down the street without 0:09:46.047 --> 0:09:50.127 being kind of harassed in whatever way, and then the 0:09:50.207 --> 0:09:53.847 shock when it stops. So my friends and I were 0:09:53.887 --> 0:09:57.927 walking down, you know, a fairly regular street in Melbourne, 0:09:58.167 --> 0:10:01.247 and we're in a group and we're approaching a work 0:10:01.327 --> 0:10:04.007 site and we knew that there were men there, and 0:10:04.247 --> 0:10:07.727 you know, almost like you know, it was a practice response. 0:10:07.767 --> 0:10:10.207 We all kind of got stiff and a little and thought, oh, 0:10:10.247 --> 0:10:14.647 here we go, and we walked past and nothing happened. 0:10:15.567 --> 0:10:19.567 So rather than the usual oh my goodness, it was 0:10:19.887 --> 0:10:24.407 oh my goodness, what happened? Do we not look good tonight. 0:10:25.047 --> 0:10:28.847 What's really interesting in that is that moment of, oh 0:10:28.887 --> 0:10:31.807 my god, am I not really a feminist? Have I 0:10:31.887 --> 0:10:35.287 also really just been after this the whole time? And do? 0:10:35.367 --> 0:10:37.967 I really love it? But what's really interesting is that 0:10:38.007 --> 0:10:41.567 we've been so conditioned to be validated in that way 0:10:41.927 --> 0:10:44.567 that when it left, it was actually a shock. 0:10:44.927 --> 0:10:47.807 The same thing happened to me. I remember very clearly 0:10:48.007 --> 0:10:50.167 a moment when I was walking down the street with 0:10:50.247 --> 0:10:54.287 a young coworker. This is years ago, and she was 0:10:54.407 --> 0:10:56.367 in her twenties or whatever, and we're walking down a 0:10:56.367 --> 0:10:59.407 busy street in Sydney and a car beaped and I 0:10:59.527 --> 0:11:01.887 turned to her and I said, I didn't know that 0:11:01.927 --> 0:11:03.847 people still beaped at girls in the street. 0:11:04.727 --> 0:11:05.367 And then I. 0:11:05.287 --> 0:11:09.647 Had this moment where I went, oh, yes they do. 0:11:10.087 --> 0:11:12.327 They just don't be put me in the street anymore. 0:11:12.887 --> 0:11:15.967 And what's really interesting about it, as you're saying, is 0:11:16.007 --> 0:11:18.367 it's complicated because it's not that you want to be 0:11:18.367 --> 0:11:21.847 beeped at, but it's that you've literally spent twenty years 0:11:21.967 --> 0:11:25.487 or however long like valuing yourself that we're seeing yourself 0:11:25.487 --> 0:11:28.487 that way, or just learning to deal with it. I 0:11:28.527 --> 0:11:30.927 love that you wrote about how what happens to us 0:11:30.967 --> 0:11:33.927 in that period of intense visibility that you go through 0:11:33.927 --> 0:11:36.647 at that young age is we learn to see ourselves 0:11:36.647 --> 0:11:38.607 through the male gaze, and we learn to see each 0:11:38.607 --> 0:11:41.447 other through the male gaze, and that's how we value 0:11:41.447 --> 0:11:43.887 each other. So when that's taken away, of course, it's 0:11:43.887 --> 0:11:47.247 a recalibration, right, it should be freeing, and it is freeing. 0:11:48.007 --> 0:11:51.567 But I remember feeling a little bit like, oh, well, 0:11:51.607 --> 0:11:54.247 I'm safe now in the world, which isn't true, but 0:11:54.407 --> 0:11:58.247 also it's jolting because your value is plummeted in the 0:11:58.327 --> 0:12:01.887 eyes of society. Is that how you kind of felt. 0:12:01.847 --> 0:12:06.767 One hundred percent? That's so accurate, isn't it to how 0:12:07.047 --> 0:12:10.767 you know, something that we got very acclimatized to and 0:12:10.807 --> 0:12:13.367 we adapted to, and we put up with and we 0:12:13.487 --> 0:12:17.527 dealt with when that's suddenly gone, though, I think it's 0:12:17.567 --> 0:12:20.967 not only perceived value, it is actually value that we 0:12:21.047 --> 0:12:24.127 see ourselves and how we're treated in the world. Then, 0:12:24.207 --> 0:12:27.287 as the years kind of tumble forward, and I think 0:12:27.647 --> 0:12:30.327 the compassion that we need for what people do in 0:12:30.367 --> 0:12:33.567 that regard, you know, try and keep themselves looking young, 0:12:33.727 --> 0:12:35.807 and all the things that we go to do that 0:12:36.247 --> 0:12:40.167 needs to be understood and kind of given some leeway 0:12:40.367 --> 0:12:43.647 through that frame, understanding that we are just trying to 0:12:43.687 --> 0:12:47.127 recalibrate and understand our value in this world. 0:12:47.127 --> 0:12:51.007 And maybe try and make ourselves still visible because we're 0:12:51.087 --> 0:12:53.247 kind of working out whether we can still play by 0:12:53.247 --> 0:12:55.007 those rules or not exactly. 0:12:55.207 --> 0:12:58.367 And again, this is not about vanity and it's I mean, 0:12:58.367 --> 0:13:00.007 of course it is in some regard, but it's not 0:13:00.167 --> 0:13:04.367 because our value has truly been linked to our youth 0:13:04.807 --> 0:13:09.447 and to whether we are sexually interesting or desirable the 0:13:09.447 --> 0:13:12.807 world outside of us. So it's not a fancy of ours. 0:13:12.887 --> 0:13:16.847 This is something that we've been constructed to understand and 0:13:17.007 --> 0:13:18.927 believe but also experience. 0:13:19.847 --> 0:13:22.487 The reason why that can often be a rage, Like 0:13:22.647 --> 0:13:25.727 one of the things that makes us furious is because 0:13:25.767 --> 0:13:29.127 once you are invisible, and again we play this out 0:13:29.127 --> 0:13:31.767 in just everyday situations like being ignored at the bar, 0:13:32.247 --> 0:13:34.567 or people not really listening to you when you're talking 0:13:34.607 --> 0:13:37.807 in a group situation, or whatever. It might be that 0:13:37.967 --> 0:13:41.807 sort of slightly patronizing voice that people sometimes use. When 0:13:42.167 --> 0:13:46.767 you suddenly notice it being used towards you, that is infuriating. Right. 0:13:46.887 --> 0:13:48.727 One of the things that strikes me as one of 0:13:48.727 --> 0:13:51.287 the big paradoxes is that here we are at a 0:13:51.327 --> 0:13:53.607 point in our life where we have been through a lot, 0:13:53.887 --> 0:13:56.687 often where we are wise and we understand a lot, 0:13:57.127 --> 0:13:59.407 and it's the point at which we sort of are 0:13:59.447 --> 0:14:03.127 also broadly a bit pitied and patronized. Inside, I feel 0:14:03.127 --> 0:14:05.287 like I'm at my most powerful in lots of ways. 0:14:06.047 --> 0:14:07.727 That makes you really cross. 0:14:08.607 --> 0:14:11.647 I feel like inside my mind, my most recent book 0:14:11.647 --> 0:14:15.607 that I'm just finishing is actually speaking to seventy eighty 0:14:15.607 --> 0:14:19.087 and ninety year old women, and it's exactly that this 0:14:19.167 --> 0:14:22.567 doesn't diminish as we get older. In fact, that infantilization 0:14:22.727 --> 0:14:26.527 and that diminishment of us as women probably increases in 0:14:26.647 --> 0:14:30.127 more overt ways where we get spoken to like we're 0:14:30.127 --> 0:14:34.207 little darlings and deers. And it's exactly that we are 0:14:34.207 --> 0:14:38.207 in our greatest power, our greatest wisdom, our greatest comfort, 0:14:38.287 --> 0:14:41.727 in our bodies, potentially the sense of who we are 0:14:41.887 --> 0:14:46.967 is potentially at its clearest, and suddenly we don't exist anymore. 0:14:47.407 --> 0:14:50.567 And of course that makes us angry, because it's just 0:14:50.647 --> 0:14:56.007 about validating that utility has always been connected to our desirability, 0:14:56.367 --> 0:14:59.687 and there's nothing more frustrating and aggravating than that. 0:15:02.207 --> 0:15:05.047 After this shortbreak, we hear how to sinter transform to 0:15:05.207 --> 0:15:08.287 rage into wisdom and ask if we can do it too, please? 0:15:11.087 --> 0:15:15.047 What's your relationship with rage? Like your last book was 0:15:15.167 --> 0:15:18.527 also about living with a chronic invisible illness, you have 0:15:18.647 --> 0:15:22.247 been living with crones? Is that correct? Since you're in 0:15:22.247 --> 0:15:26.127 your early twenties, so being hospitalized and going through a 0:15:26.167 --> 0:15:28.127 lot of surgery and procedures at a time when I 0:15:28.127 --> 0:15:31.527 imagine a lot of your contemporaries were off abusing their 0:15:31.527 --> 0:15:36.407 bodies and having a good time, that must have been 0:15:36.487 --> 0:15:40.527 difficult to suppress rage through. Have you found ways to 0:15:40.647 --> 0:15:42.687 live alongside rage? 0:15:43.167 --> 0:15:47.007 It's such a beautiful question, especially connected with illness. It's 0:15:47.007 --> 0:15:51.087 something I had to directly address. You're so right. I 0:15:51.167 --> 0:15:55.567 was really cross, mainly because I felt so isolated in 0:15:55.607 --> 0:15:58.007 the experience, and I was cross. You know, I would 0:15:58.047 --> 0:16:01.927 be fuming quietly at my friends for not understanding things, 0:16:02.007 --> 0:16:04.327 and for not being there at the times, and for 0:16:04.327 --> 0:16:06.967 not understanding the gravity of the experience that I was 0:16:07.007 --> 0:16:10.407 going to. But there was, you know, a real clear 0:16:10.447 --> 0:16:13.367 moment for me where I realized that that doesn't solve 0:16:13.407 --> 0:16:17.127 any problems. In fact, it creates more. With that kind 0:16:17.167 --> 0:16:21.567 of rage where you are angry about a situation, but 0:16:21.647 --> 0:16:24.927 you're projecting it elsewhere. I found a piece in it. Actually, 0:16:25.007 --> 0:16:27.047 I found that there was no way to continue and 0:16:27.047 --> 0:16:31.167 perpetually go that way. And there is this moment I 0:16:31.207 --> 0:16:33.207 suppose that a lot of people get to, which is 0:16:33.247 --> 0:16:36.727 an acceptance of where you are with illness, for example, 0:16:37.247 --> 0:16:42.047 and a way to accommodate it that's powerful rather than reductive. 0:16:42.687 --> 0:16:45.767 And it really helped me love beyond myself. 0:16:46.447 --> 0:16:49.807 Is there a literal way that you did that. Did 0:16:49.847 --> 0:16:54.047 you study deeply? Did you meditate? Did you find faith? 0:16:54.207 --> 0:16:54.287 Like? 0:16:54.367 --> 0:16:57.567 How did you get to that level of being able 0:16:57.607 --> 0:17:00.167 to accept your hand as it were? 0:17:00.727 --> 0:17:05.727 It was hitting the bottom significantly where I felt like 0:17:06.407 --> 0:17:09.487 I was either going to stay there forever or to 0:17:09.567 --> 0:17:13.607 find my way to take responsibility. And it's a really 0:17:13.687 --> 0:17:17.647 hard thing to talk about because illness particularly is one 0:17:17.687 --> 0:17:20.967 of those states that we don't choose. So therefore, what 0:17:21.007 --> 0:17:24.127 can I take responsibility for when it's not mine in 0:17:24.167 --> 0:17:27.687 the first place? Really, but responsibility in that way, I think, 0:17:27.887 --> 0:17:30.607 is okay, how am I going to do this? How 0:17:30.647 --> 0:17:33.687 will it look for me? And so I decided that 0:17:33.847 --> 0:17:36.927 I would do a really good job of illness and 0:17:36.967 --> 0:17:40.287 I would find the joy in it. And that sounds 0:17:40.287 --> 0:17:43.007 really clear, and it sounds like a Hallmark card. But 0:17:43.607 --> 0:17:47.887 through meditation, you're one hundred percent ride through studying what 0:17:48.007 --> 0:17:50.287 it is like to have a body that doesn't work, 0:17:50.487 --> 0:17:54.087 and to think about our bodies differently, that they're not 0:17:54.207 --> 0:17:57.207 who I am, and that it shows me something, it's 0:17:57.247 --> 0:18:00.807 teaching me something, it's showing me through the limitations that 0:18:00.887 --> 0:18:05.247 it's giving me that actually, ah, there's another way, there's 0:18:05.287 --> 0:18:08.847 another way. It also showed me not to be fearful. 0:18:09.607 --> 0:18:13.207 There was so much fear in illness and what could happen, 0:18:13.327 --> 0:18:16.007 and when it did, I was like, ah, I'm actually 0:18:16.047 --> 0:18:16.687 really strong. 0:18:17.367 --> 0:18:20.687 That's interesting. I don't want to say after your illness, 0:18:20.727 --> 0:18:23.247 because I know that's not the case. You're living with 0:18:23.287 --> 0:18:28.327 your illness. But you became a mother unexpectedly, right almost well, 0:18:28.327 --> 0:18:31.007 not enexpectedly, but as in you weren't sure your body 0:18:31.047 --> 0:18:33.967 could do it, but your body could do it. And 0:18:34.167 --> 0:18:38.407 I remember feeling that kind of air of invincibility after 0:18:38.487 --> 0:18:41.967 I had my first child, actually thinking if I can 0:18:42.087 --> 0:18:46.847 do that, I can do all kinds of things, and 0:18:46.887 --> 0:18:49.047 that in a way, it's interesting that it's a time 0:18:49.087 --> 0:18:53.127 when the world almost tricks you, because similarly, in a 0:18:53.167 --> 0:18:55.727 way to the aging process, when you become a mother, 0:18:55.807 --> 0:18:57.567 you also get a little bit of that padded on 0:18:57.607 --> 0:19:01.007 the head, like you're just mummy now, like let's talk 0:19:01.007 --> 0:19:03.847 to mom. You know, how's mom and Bob doing today? 0:19:03.967 --> 0:19:06.967 You know that kind of very infanticizing bullshit. 0:19:07.247 --> 0:19:10.647 I feel so strongly about that stuff, and I rejected 0:19:10.647 --> 0:19:12.247 it for that reason. I just. 0:19:14.687 --> 0:19:16.807 Well, you rejected it so much I read, which I 0:19:16.887 --> 0:19:18.887 loved that you refuse to go to mother's. 0:19:18.567 --> 0:19:21.327 Ground my partner instead. I was like, I don't want 0:19:21.327 --> 0:19:22.447 to be that thing. 0:19:22.727 --> 0:19:24.727 It's a time when the world is trying to trick 0:19:24.807 --> 0:19:27.727 us into thinking that we're weak, when actually we've just 0:19:27.767 --> 0:19:31.087 been through something and probably for very many of us 0:19:31.167 --> 0:19:33.247 and very many of the women listening to this, in 0:19:33.327 --> 0:19:38.087 all kinds of manners of difficult, challenging, painful, traumatic ways, 0:19:38.447 --> 0:19:40.687 we've actually just been something that's only made us stronger. 0:19:40.727 --> 0:19:44.407 So it's like the world's constantly trying to say little 0:19:44.487 --> 0:19:49.807 you when you're like, no, the size of me is unfathomable. Again, 0:19:49.847 --> 0:19:50.647 no wonder we're angry. 0:19:50.687 --> 0:19:53.967 I could go back. Yeah, it is such a crime, 0:19:54.207 --> 0:19:59.367 isn't it. At our greatest strength, we are given you know, 0:19:59.527 --> 0:20:03.647 straws to fight the world with. Really, it's such an injustice, 0:20:03.687 --> 0:20:04.567 isn't it. It is? 0:20:04.607 --> 0:20:06.407 And it's kind of a cruel trick in a way. 0:20:06.887 --> 0:20:10.367 So the thing that happens in this peer of midlife 0:20:10.407 --> 0:20:13.487 when you are wrestling with this identity and this invisibility, which, 0:20:13.487 --> 0:20:15.207 as we've said, is kind of a symptom of the 0:20:15.567 --> 0:20:20.407 changing of your identity from young to old, and there's 0:20:20.447 --> 0:20:22.687 a line that suddenly you've crossed and you kind of 0:20:22.687 --> 0:20:25.367 need the outside world to signal it to you. A 0:20:25.367 --> 0:20:27.287 lot of us go through a period of change then, 0:20:27.567 --> 0:20:29.207 and I know that you've been through a lot of 0:20:29.327 --> 0:20:31.527 change in this past couple of years. You have changed 0:20:31.567 --> 0:20:34.247 your professional life, your personal life. You know, you've made 0:20:34.247 --> 0:20:37.087 a lot of adjustments to the way you live. How 0:20:37.087 --> 0:20:41.527 do you think women recalibrate this time without kind of 0:20:42.407 --> 0:20:46.127 making wild gestures at the world. You know that we 0:20:46.207 --> 0:20:48.207 might have once called a midlife crisis that might be 0:20:48.247 --> 0:20:52.487 ill advised. So like trying to entangle necessary change from 0:20:52.767 --> 0:20:54.367 just a reaction to all of this. 0:20:55.127 --> 0:20:59.487 Ah, again, you've got to stop asking great questions. Because 0:20:59.527 --> 0:21:02.487 I had to check myself in the big changes I 0:21:02.527 --> 0:21:05.207 was making, and someone did look a bit and said, 0:21:05.287 --> 0:21:08.687 just be careful, this isn't your perimenopause kind of creating 0:21:08.727 --> 0:21:12.847 for you a desire again. I hope this doesn't sound 0:21:12.847 --> 0:21:16.167 too woo woo, but I really think one of the 0:21:16.207 --> 0:21:21.567 great aspects of the feminine is connection. You know, to 0:21:21.927 --> 0:21:26.447 really feel when either you're emotional and you're having an 0:21:26.447 --> 0:21:30.127 emotional reaction and you're upset and you're angry, or you 0:21:30.287 --> 0:21:33.327 know the answer. And when you know the answer, as 0:21:33.367 --> 0:21:35.847 I did to both of those big life changes, you know, 0:21:36.007 --> 0:21:39.487 breaking up a twenty five year marriage and changing my 0:21:39.727 --> 0:21:42.407 kind of job life, I just knew. 0:21:42.767 --> 0:21:45.167 Had you been ignoring that knowing for a long time? 0:21:45.207 --> 0:21:46.407 Do you think no? 0:21:46.487 --> 0:21:49.767 But it became just clear. I just remember, oh right, 0:21:50.167 --> 0:21:52.927 that's the answer, you know, those moments where you just know. 0:21:53.727 --> 0:21:55.687 And I think what I had done previously in my 0:21:55.727 --> 0:21:58.247 life was try and find all the reasons why that 0:21:58.327 --> 0:22:02.127 might not be true, or you know, complicate what is true. 0:22:02.527 --> 0:22:04.007 So I think that was the first thing for me. 0:22:04.287 --> 0:22:07.407 This is true, this needs to change. And then the 0:22:07.487 --> 0:22:10.007 question is, okay, well, how do I go about this 0:22:10.287 --> 0:22:14.047 in the most loving and constructive way? What is the 0:22:14.087 --> 0:22:17.767 best way to do this change? So, if you're changing 0:22:18.047 --> 0:22:20.287 and your feelings of change, I think are in those 0:22:20.327 --> 0:22:23.247 moments of throwing the world up and shooting it all 0:22:23.247 --> 0:22:26.207 out and breaking windows and stuff. Maybe that is the 0:22:26.247 --> 0:22:29.327 symptom of the restlessness and the rage that comes from 0:22:29.327 --> 0:22:31.727 other things that you just want to change things. 0:22:31.567 --> 0:22:36.247 Because where you are just feels too impossibly itchy and uncomfortable. 0:22:36.567 --> 0:22:39.207 But I think we'd always know the answer, and I 0:22:39.247 --> 0:22:42.727 think it's just going back to the old ways of 0:22:42.807 --> 0:22:47.287 trusting ourselves when we do sit quietly, when we do meditate, 0:22:47.407 --> 0:22:51.327 when we do have that knowing that we have the 0:22:51.367 --> 0:22:55.327 confidence to then strategize, then use our other parts of 0:22:55.407 --> 0:22:57.847 us to work out, Okay, how do I actually do 0:22:58.007 --> 0:22:58.847 this well? 0:22:59.287 --> 0:23:02.687 And did you feel like that path opened up before 0:23:02.687 --> 0:23:04.127 you or did you have to hack it out with 0:23:04.127 --> 0:23:04.927 a machete? 0:23:05.567 --> 0:23:08.767 Now I think it opened up, but it wasn't like 0:23:09.487 --> 0:23:13.047 use your short thing, but there was definitely for both 0:23:13.087 --> 0:23:17.407 of those. Just once you make a decision, then the 0:23:17.407 --> 0:23:20.727 world does kind of start providing the answers, not because 0:23:20.727 --> 0:23:24.247 of magic, but because you've opened up your mind to 0:23:24.327 --> 0:23:27.247 see them. Now, Oh okay, well that could be a solution, 0:23:27.487 --> 0:23:29.687 because the hardest thing is to make this decision to 0:23:29.807 --> 0:23:34.407 change how that change happens is a myriad of possibilities. 0:23:36.327 --> 0:23:38.887 More of my conversation with your Sinterer Parsons coming up 0:23:38.927 --> 0:23:42.407