Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: I was terrified all the time.
Speaker 3: You know, there's times where I'm meant to be at
Speaker 3: school by myself on the weekend, maybe to check.
Speaker 1: Something or be on some kind of function or something.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't go. We bought cameras for the house. I
Speaker 1: wore an Apple Watch that would tell Chris.
Speaker 3: When I arrived to school and when I got home
Speaker 3: it was summer, and I wouldn't give the windows open,
Speaker 3: just in case I was in a different room because
Speaker 3: the things that Andy had wrote about me were so graphic.
Speaker 2: From MoMA Mia, you're listening to No Filter. I'm Kate Langbrook,
Speaker 2: and that is the voice of one of the bravest
Speaker 2: women I have ever spoken to, Hannah Grundy. Hannah's story
Speaker 2: starts somewhere familiar for a lot of us. Early days
Speaker 2: of UNI, late nights out, making new friends over drinking games,
Speaker 2: or maybe you were pulling long shifts at casual jobs
Speaker 2: but forming friendships with colleagues into the early hours of
Speaker 2: the morn. Well, that was Hannah Grundy's life when she
Speaker 2: started studying at Sydney UNI over a decade ago, but
Speaker 2: she could never have imagined that those friendships would ultimately
Speaker 2: lead to the horrific unraveling of her life and the
Speaker 2: lives of dozens small women, many of them her friends.
Speaker 2: Hannah's nightmare, and it was a waking nightmare, began in
Speaker 2: August twenty twenty two when she stumbled upon violent degrading
Speaker 2: AI generated pornographic images of herself. These fake images had
Speaker 2: been posted on truly disturbing websites alongside graphic polls encouraging
Speaker 2: hairiness acts. The website also included her full name, her suburb,
Speaker 2: her Instagram handle. As Hannah and her partner Chris dove
Speaker 2: deeper into the site, they discovered more women they knew,
Speaker 2: friends and colleagues, and realized this wasn't random. Determined to
Speaker 2: uncover the source, they embarked on their own investigation, only
Speaker 2: to uncover the person behind it all was one of
Speaker 2: their closest friends. This story feels almost unreal. It's like
Speaker 2: something out of a dark thriller. Yet for nearly three years,
Speaker 2: Hannah and Chris live this piecing together each twisted detail,
Speaker 2: fighting against the faceless world of the Internet. And the
Speaker 2: unchecked power of AI. Hannah's story is a stark reminder
Speaker 2: of the damage anonymity and advanced technology can cause in
Speaker 2: the wrong hands. But more than that, it's a story
Speaker 2: of extraordinary resilience. What struck me most about Hannah was
Speaker 2: her unwavering strength, her courage, her relentless pursuit of justice,
Speaker 2: a powerful testament to personal and legal perseverance. And because
Speaker 2: Hannah is a school teacher, I had to start today's
Speaker 2: interview on my best behavior. Good afternoon, miss Grundy.
Speaker 1: Good afternoon. Oh gosh, I haven't heard that for a
Speaker 1: while in class.
Speaker 2: To be honest, are you a first name teacher or
Speaker 2: a surname teacher?
Speaker 1: So I definitely a sturname teacher. But the girls don't.
Speaker 3: Often say the good afternoon, missus Grundy anymore.
Speaker 2: No, No, they're too resentful, they're too tired. Can you
Speaker 2: take me back in time to a place called the
Speaker 2: Manning Bar where something wonderful happened with you increase? Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, I had just moved up to Sydney from Wollongong.
Speaker 1: I was very young.
Speaker 3: I had worked in bars for a couple of years
Speaker 3: down there, and so I thought it would be nice
Speaker 3: for me to work in Manning Bar because I could
Speaker 3: make some friends in Sydney that way, and that's pretty
Speaker 3: much where my core social group has come from. And
Speaker 3: when I was at Manning Bar, I met my partner Chris,
Speaker 3: and he was another bartender there, and we're going on
Speaker 3: I think thirteen years now.
Speaker 2: So okay, so you were both were you both students
Speaker 2: at the time and it was the UNI bar?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so were both students at Sydney Uni.
Speaker 3: I was taking signs at that point and he was
Speaker 3: taking engineering and maths, so our paths probably wouldn't have
Speaker 3: crossed otherwise.
Speaker 1: So very lucky to have worked there.
Speaker 2: You increase. Was it a love at first sight or
Speaker 2: was it you were hanging out in a group and
Speaker 2: then you kind of went I think he might like me.
Speaker 3: Look, he actually kept coming to the bar when I
Speaker 3: was working to put in his resume as he just
Speaker 3: moved up from Blue Blue Mountains, but the resume still
Speaker 3: said the Blue Mountains, so I kept.
Speaker 1: Putting it in the bin.
Speaker 3: It was silly, but he so wanted to work there
Speaker 3: that he and he just moved. So he eventually said
Speaker 3: he would work for free, and the bar manager said
Speaker 3: all right, then get him in.
Speaker 2: Really he is now, you said, the Manning Bar became
Speaker 2: such a one of those pivotal places like Central Perk.
Speaker 2: You know, it sounds like you all hung out and
Speaker 2: you made amazing lifelong friends. Can you tell me a
Speaker 2: little bit about your group from there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, working in a bar, you
Speaker 3: end up working on the days where everyone else is
Speaker 3: going out. So you miss a Friday night, you missed
Speaker 3: the Saturday night, miss.
Speaker 1: All of the good nights.
Speaker 3: So when you work with a group of very young
Speaker 3: people that are your age at the bar, you always
Speaker 3: hang out together, so you go out for drinks afterwards,
Speaker 3: you stay back for drinks at the workplace. You know,
Speaker 3: Newtown is such a cool place to be and it's
Speaker 3: open all night. We would just hang out together. So
Speaker 3: we were a really really strong group of ten or
Speaker 3: fifteen people, and birthdays, we went on holidays together the
Speaker 3: whole time I wasn't Manning.
Speaker 1: That was just my core social group those kind of
Speaker 1: formative years. They are your best friends, so we hang
Speaker 1: out for all.
Speaker 3: Of our big occasions, even though our lives kind of
Speaker 3: went in separate directions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting because you and Chris ended up
Speaker 2: becoming a couple, and sometimes when that happens, you kind
Speaker 2: of move away a little bit from your single friends
Speaker 2: or from those friends that you met when you were single.
Speaker 2: But that didn't happen with you, guys. You kind of
Speaker 2: stayed tight with a core.
Speaker 1: Look.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we stayed very tight. I think it because we're
Speaker 3: all in different parts of our lives. So I guess
Speaker 3: some of us got married, and then some of us
Speaker 3: had babies, and some of us just stayed single and
Speaker 3: did all sorts of things.
Speaker 1: So it was almost like a family.
Speaker 3: You just if you saw one of them, even if
Speaker 3: you hadn't seen them for six months, seven months, it
Speaker 3: was like you hadn't had any time past.
Speaker 2: And so you and Chrease have. You're living your best lives,
Speaker 2: You've just bought a house, You're really embedded as a couple,
Speaker 2: and then do you get a strange message from someone.
Speaker 3: I had been getting a couple of strange things on
Speaker 3: all of my social media's and then they're kind of
Speaker 3: They've been closed for ten years since I became a teacher,
Speaker 3: and I started getting more random messages from men. But
Speaker 3: I just ignored them because I thought that's what it
Speaker 3: is to be a girl on the internet you just ignored.
Speaker 3: But I do remember saying to Chris, I think my
Speaker 3: email's turned up somewhere, or something has happened, something has happened,
Speaker 3: my name's come up.
Speaker 2: So because this is what was the nature of those messages.
Speaker 3: They were sexual or they were creepy, and they acted
Speaker 3: like they knew me. And there was a couple that
Speaker 3: had photos of me in them that were just taking
Speaker 3: off my account but like menacing. But right still, they
Speaker 3: didn't have enough in them for me to think it
Speaker 3: wasn't just that I had turned up somewhere and these
Speaker 3: were just random creeps.
Speaker 1: So I just deleted them straight away.
Speaker 3: It was kind of a this used to happen when
Speaker 3: my Facebook was open, ah, And so I got an
Speaker 3: email and it went to my spam folder. And this
Speaker 3: is in around twenty twenty two, it might've been twenty
Speaker 3: twenty one at the very end. And it just was
Speaker 3: a forward from another email to a woman who I
Speaker 3: won't say her name, and it said that there were
Speaker 3: pictures of her online and that he could help figure
Speaker 3: out who it was if we went to the police.
Speaker 3: And all mine was was just a forward of that,
Speaker 3: and it said this is happening.
Speaker 1: To you too.
Speaker 3: Hammer. Oh.
Speaker 1: I just thought that was so random that I didn't
Speaker 1: do anything.
Speaker 3: And then I kept getting I got another one and
Speaker 3: I ignored that too, And then the one that really
Speaker 3: kind of got me to act was one that was
Speaker 3: addressed to me.
Speaker 2: How much longer after the first one.
Speaker 3: I'd ignored them for about three months, it was only
Speaker 3: two at that point.
Speaker 1: But they just they didn't give me anything to do.
Speaker 3: They said, you know, if you have a police complaint,
Speaker 3: I will talk to the police.
Speaker 1: But I didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what anything they.
Speaker 1: Were talking about.
Speaker 3: So the one that made me act it was addressed
Speaker 3: directly to me, and it said that a man was
Speaker 3: posting pictures of me online. It had a link in
Speaker 3: it and it said the above link contains disturbing material.
Speaker 3: Might beware. And I got that when I was home alone.
Speaker 3: And I know not to click a.
Speaker 2: Link from Suing. We've all learned that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just waited for my partner to get home
Speaker 3: until we opened it.
Speaker 1: We both looked at it.
Speaker 3: We sat with it for a second and we thought, look,
Speaker 3: best not to click that link. But if we just
Speaker 3: put the link into Google and search it, then that's
Speaker 3: a bit safer, and so when we did that, I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm you know, I still think it was I still
Speaker 3: thought it was fake, you know, I just I had
Speaker 3: no idea and kind of Chris went into the computer
Speaker 3: room and he did that, and I'm waiting there really
Speaker 3: like so shocked, and I just remember him. He turned
Speaker 3: the iPad to me and he.
Speaker 1: Just scrolled through and.
Speaker 3: It's a forum based kind of website, so it's post
Speaker 3: after post, and there was just like he would have
Speaker 3: easily done ten or fifteen photos of me of you. Yeah,
Speaker 3: pornographic photos of me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so not photos of you, and yet photos of.
Speaker 3: You, Yeah, hardcore porn, degrading porn, violent porn of me.
Speaker 3: And then yeah, my face had been kind of superimposed
Speaker 3: on the women in them.
Speaker 2: So in that moment and after, what is that that
Speaker 2: is between you and Chris and the computer? Is it disbelief?
Speaker 3: I don't think it was disbelief because there were so
Speaker 3: many right pay real fear because it was immediately obvious
Speaker 3: that someone had spent hours and hours and hours doing it.
Speaker 3: You know, some of them were really pathetic efforts at photoshop,
Speaker 3: and then some of them are convincing AI And so
Speaker 3: this person had obviously spent many, many, many nights, and
Speaker 3: that's just on the first look of what we saw
Speaker 3: doing it, and so I was just, I think, really
Speaker 3: really scared at first.
Speaker 2: What did you do? What did you decide to do?
Speaker 2: Did you spend the night in discussing it or like what?
Speaker 2: That has got to be one of the most radical
Speaker 2: shifts in mood and one of those moments in which
Speaker 2: you know that your life is radically shifting. Course.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it definitely was, because look, I just started
Speaker 3: back at school that.
Speaker 1: Term and everything was going.
Speaker 3: So well for us, and it just crashed down on
Speaker 3: us like a ton of bricks. So I guess after
Speaker 3: i'd seen I think maybe that first page of posts
Speaker 3: the thread was ten to twelve pages at that point,
Speaker 3: it got larger and all sorts of other things came up.
Speaker 3: I just saw that one page and that many and
Speaker 3: I had to come into a different room because I
Speaker 3: just said, if I see any more of that, I
Speaker 3: think I would break down. I need to not see
Speaker 3: myself in those positions. I cannot deal with that.
Speaker 1: So I came in here.
Speaker 3: I came into the lounge room still freaking out. Chris
Speaker 3: went through it a bit more. I guess what we
Speaker 3: decided to do. We both kind of I guess, I
Speaker 3: don't know what we would say.
Speaker 1: We just wanted to be able to do something about it.
Speaker 3: So what ended up happening is Chris went through it
Speaker 3: enough that we stilled to notice that the same person
Speaker 3: was posting our friends as well from Manning Bar.
Speaker 2: So there were how many girls that you worked with
Speaker 2: at Manning Bar were.
Speaker 1: Also This is a hard one.
Speaker 2: I'm in the in the images.
Speaker 3: To the police had around sixty women on it. Twenty
Speaker 3: six went to court and we were in on what
Speaker 3: happened with us. But the ones that I saw that
Speaker 3: were my friends. There was two very close friends of mine,
Speaker 3: and then there was quite a few people that had
Speaker 3: either come to the bar who worked briefly at the bar,
Speaker 3: but they.
Speaker 1: Didn't show up as much. It was mainly two of
Speaker 1: my friends that were.
Speaker 2: So you worked out pretty quickly that the link was
Speaker 2: Manning Bar.
Speaker 3: What we worked at originally is that when you look
Speaker 3: at all the pictures, you can tell which photos they
Speaker 3: come from. I don't have a huge social media presence,
Speaker 3: so I could tell from a pornographic image, oh, actually
Speaker 3: that's my face from my engagement photo, or that's my
Speaker 3: face from women's wedding. So you do that, it started
Speaker 3: to look like it was just one of our friends.
Speaker 3: And then when we saw these other women, yeah, and
Speaker 3: we plugged them into Facebook. We just kept churning them
Speaker 3: into Facebook. And there was lots that weren't from Manny,
Speaker 3: but they were from other bars around Sydney and you
Speaker 3: could just put them into Facebook and see who had
Speaker 3: mutual friends with And so we did that the whole night.
Speaker 3: We just spent Christals on the couch with the iPad.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to see it, yeah, but he would
Speaker 3: yell out a name and I would plug it into
Speaker 3: my phone like Instagram and Facebook, and we'd write down
Speaker 3: all the people that were connected. And we just kept
Speaker 3: doing that and doing that until we got so small
Speaker 3: the group.
Speaker 2: So how small was the group that you narrowed it
Speaker 2: down to?
Speaker 3: Look, we very early in the night narrowed it down
Speaker 3: to three, and we were sure it would be some
Speaker 3: of them more than others, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: Like we were just really hoping, I guess that it
Speaker 3: would be some of them other than others.
Speaker 1: But these three kind of work together.
Speaker 3: They're very good friends that've been in lots of bars together,
Speaker 3: so it was quind of hard to discern them. But
Speaker 3: what ended up happening is who it was post of
Speaker 3: these was completely random people off the internet.
Speaker 1: And then it just became very obvious. Right, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: we got it down to the one that night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you knew that night who it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And even though I mean, the images are bad enough,
Speaker 2: but there was a rolling poll I understand up at
Speaker 2: the top of the page that was basically saying inviting
Speaker 2: men to vote or to participate in saying how they
Speaker 2: would like to rape the women.
Speaker 1: Mine was called the Destruction of Hannah.
Speaker 3: And then at the top there was a poll and
Speaker 3: it said how would you rape Hannah? And then it
Speaker 3: had you know, seven or six options. They were very graphic,
Speaker 3: and then hundreds and hundreds of men had vote on it.
Speaker 2: So at the end of this night, the Eve of
Speaker 2: Destruction really wasn't it of your life as you knew it.
Speaker 2: You've narrowed it down already, so straight away you start
Speaker 2: ditch digging, really, which is interesting, and you've narrowed it
Speaker 2: down to who you think it is, I.
Speaker 3: Guess at the same time, and this is like Chris
Speaker 3: is a hero for this as well he made a
Speaker 3: doc that had because we got worried. We didn't really
Speaker 3: realize how long this person had been doing it of me,
Speaker 3: Like maybe he just did it all this wrong, right,
Speaker 3: so what if you know it takes it down or
Speaker 3: what Chris, every time you saw a quote about me,
Speaker 3: he takes screenshot put in a folder. And so what
Speaker 3: we did was we made a dock and we had
Speaker 3: all of the women that we had gone through, and
Speaker 3: then it was and then how they were linked to me,
Speaker 3: how they were linked to this person, the links to
Speaker 3: the posts and then the screenshots.
Speaker 1: To the post and everything.
Speaker 3: And so that's kind of how we busied our ourselves
Speaker 3: that night, because I guess the idea was I was
Speaker 3: going to go to the police office in the morning,
Speaker 3: and you just want to be able.
Speaker 2: To yeah, of course somewhat with and I.
Speaker 3: It was feel better at the time because it was
Speaker 3: so scared and there's nothing really you can do except
Speaker 3: that then yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nowhere else to turn, but also you don't
Speaker 2: know where to go. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, I've never been and I'm so lucky for this
Speaker 3: a victim of a crime, and I've never been in
Speaker 3: trouble for a crime either.
Speaker 1: So I didn't even know.
Speaker 3: Really what you do with it, but I knew it
Speaker 3: wasn't an emergency, so I just thought, like, we leave
Speaker 3: it for tonight, we sit on this, and then tomorrow morning,
Speaker 3: fresher minds, we get up.
Speaker 4: And we go.
Speaker 2: How did you sleep that night?
Speaker 1: Not well? Not well?
Speaker 3: I mean I was went to be at school the
Speaker 3: next day and it's like one of those really nice
Speaker 3: days where I think it was a swimming carnival and
Speaker 3: that's like precious day because you go and you just
Speaker 3: cheer on the girls, and so you call in and
Speaker 3: I just said I was sick. But yeah, I don't
Speaker 3: think I slept much that night.
Speaker 2: So you woke up in the morning and you were
Speaker 2: resolved to go to the police. Were you and Chris
Speaker 2: going together to the police?
Speaker 3: No, Look, I wanted to go by myself. I still didn't,
Speaker 3: I guess maybe get the gravity.
Speaker 1: Of it, and I really thought that they would separate
Speaker 1: us anyway. I don't know. I don't know how.
Speaker 2: I woke up just in them like they were going
Speaker 2: to interrogate youll what's I mean? Right?
Speaker 3: And I guess I was feeling very I can do this,
Speaker 3: this will be fun, understand me.
Speaker 1: When I go.
Speaker 3: So now, I called them in the morning just in
Speaker 3: case I don't know what you do, and they just said, no,
Speaker 3: rock on in, like come in whenever. Because I thought,
Speaker 3: maybe you need to make an appointment for something like this.
Speaker 1: They just had come on in.
Speaker 2: Or that there's a special squad or yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I got dressed, took my little document. I just had
Speaker 3: it on my phone though, and.
Speaker 1: I took my laptop too, and then I drove down there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I saw.
Speaker 2: Them because what you were about to tell the police
Speaker 2: was that you had done the preliminary work, the detective work,
Speaker 2: and you had worked out who the person was, and
Speaker 2: who was that person.
Speaker 3: After we'd done all of our little detective work, we
Speaker 3: realized it was our very good friend. His name's Andy Hayler,
Speaker 3: Andrew Hayler. He has been at that point our friend
Speaker 3: for ten years. He was part of that very core
Speaker 3: group at Manning Bar. You know, when I started at
Speaker 3: the bar, I started as just a bartender, and he
Speaker 3: taught me to be a bar supervisor and then the
Speaker 3: venue manager there.
Speaker 1: He was someone that and.
Speaker 3: It still chokes me out thinking about it, because I
Speaker 3: really cared about him and I really had my best
Speaker 3: interests at hand.
Speaker 1: I guess it's still very weird to think about.
Speaker 2: So not only had you discovered these, you know, violent images,
Speaker 2: total breach of your privacy or whatever, but the knowledge
Speaker 2: that you were about to go to the police with
Speaker 2: that it was one of your dearest friends.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we just couldn't believe it either, even that night,
Speaker 3: Like I remember, I was lying in bed and having
Speaker 3: a chat about it, and it just it was so
Speaker 3: obvious from how many women he had posted it had
Speaker 3: to be him, but we couldn't believe it. And it
Speaker 3: took us so long still to believe it. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know it's to be true, but I just I
Speaker 3: just couldn't. I still can't make sense of it. And
Speaker 3: I think an interesting to me and Chris were saying it.
Speaker 1: At that time.
Speaker 3: We were planning a wedding and it really got put
Speaker 3: to a side because of this. But the way that
Speaker 3: it makes people understand how close he was to us
Speaker 3: is we were going to invite thirty people, just both
Speaker 3: of us together, thirty and he was one of them.
Speaker 3: So it was one of our including our family, closest friends.
Speaker 3: It unbelievable.
Speaker 2: After this short break, Hannah tells me what happened after
Speaker 2: she went to the police and how she didn't get
Speaker 2: the help she was hoping for. So you went to
Speaker 2: the police station, you told them, you showed them your folder,
Speaker 2: you showed them the images. Were you talking to one
Speaker 2: person behind the desk? Did they take you into a room?
Speaker 2: Was it a woman? Was it a man? What happens?
Speaker 3: So I just turned up and I think that I
Speaker 3: don't think they I don't know whether they picked a
Speaker 3: woman or a man because of what was happening, but
Speaker 3: it was a female constable and they put me in
Speaker 3: a room that was right next.
Speaker 1: To the front desk.
Speaker 3: So as I was giving my statement, and as I
Speaker 3: was showing them these naked pictures of me and like
Speaker 3: really incredibly violent and degrading positions, there would be a
Speaker 3: conflict at the front desk and someone would come in.
Speaker 1: I'm a police officer.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: He would have to leave to go deal with something
Speaker 1: like at one point, some guy was yelling at the front.
Speaker 1: I understand that's what the police is about. I get
Speaker 1: it's a very hard job. But I'm just sitting here
Speaker 1: in this little room alone.
Speaker 3: And they couldn't get the website up on their computer.
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's because they have a porn filter.
Speaker 2: So they were phone, Oh, of all the times to
Speaker 2: have take issues.
Speaker 3: And so then they told me that they thought the
Speaker 3: website had gone down, and I said, well, I'm on
Speaker 3: it on my phone. So I went through it on
Speaker 3: my phone and oh, saying I just don't want to
Speaker 3: see it. Please don't show me it at all. I
Speaker 3: cannot see any more of that stuff.
Speaker 1: And she repeatedly.
Speaker 3: Turned the phone around to show me things and make
Speaker 3: out what I looked like in the photos.
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
Speaker 3: So at one point she found a photo and it
Speaker 3: was me and it was in an outfit, and she
Speaker 3: told me I look cute and that one and then
Speaker 3: show it for me. And you just laughed because you're like,
Speaker 3: I really need these people to be on my side.
Speaker 1: I really want them tell me, do you know?
Speaker 3: So you laugh along, and also you're just so shocked
Speaker 3: you just go along with it. And there was another time,
Speaker 3: and I don't know if my partner was there by them,
Speaker 3: because once I gave my seat.
Speaker 1: With my PREMI come in, but she said, what did
Speaker 1: you do to this man?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: I just couldn't believe it because I was nothing but
Speaker 3: a very good friend to this man, like he did this.
Speaker 1: But even if I had dumped him.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, sure, it's it. Do you think that
Speaker 2: they treated it with the gravitask that it deserved that
Speaker 2: initial thing, like did it go up with a chain
Speaker 2: or was she kind of like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was just the first person I think that
Speaker 3: was there. And I don't want a huge amount of
Speaker 3: like I'm not angry at it. It was just completely
Speaker 3: put in the wrong place, like crazily, like I shouldn't
Speaker 3: have been sitting in that room.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have been speaking to her about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, completely mishandled, I think at the very beginning.
Speaker 2: But so then you've handed it over to the police.
Speaker 2: What does she say is going to happen from that point?
Speaker 3: Not much so Chris came in and gave his statement.
Speaker 3: So we've been there for a very long time.
Speaker 2: At that point, I'm much better to have Chris there,
Speaker 2: I imagine, Well, you need an ally or no.
Speaker 3: Well, because she kept with Chris there, she much more will.
Speaker 3: I almost left because then I was still getting a
Speaker 3: lot of seeing the images I didn't want to see, Like,
Speaker 3: why we.
Speaker 1: Have to see them again? I've seen them. I don't
Speaker 1: want to see them again.
Speaker 3: But it was better for Chris to be that yet
Speaker 3: absolutely in support of me. That was a mistake, I guess,
Speaker 3: but I didn't realize it would be so awful. But
Speaker 3: then afterwards, look, I still left thinking, you know, the
Speaker 3: cops have a really hard job.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I make jokes, you know, I think something's going
Speaker 1: to happen. I was like, you know, the.
Speaker 3: Wheels will turn things good. Things are going to happen
Speaker 3: for us when we walked out.
Speaker 2: So in the meantime, I imagine that every time you go
Speaker 2: home or it becomes a real topic of inquiry, that
Speaker 2: Chris is looking at the website to see what's happening,
Speaker 2: if it's been updated, if there's more pictures, what's happening
Speaker 2: in real time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I think.
Speaker 5: That night we were really focused on me, But then
Speaker 5: we were still worried that, you know, it would get
Speaker 5: taken down or something and our friends wouldn't have evidence
Speaker 5: for them.
Speaker 3: And so what Chris was doing was going to the
Speaker 3: website and getting all of the screenshots of our friends.
Speaker 3: And he had a folder and at this point he'd
Speaker 3: made this because he's a spreadsheet guy, he's in finance,
Speaker 3: huge spreadsheet, all of the women he'd found, his names,
Speaker 3: how they were linked to end, all of the posts,
Speaker 3: putting them into folders. Just you really want something good
Speaker 3: to happen, and you trust the police that they will
Speaker 3: make it happen. But you know, I guess it busy
Speaker 3: in yourself made yourself feel better still, So that's what, Yes.
Speaker 2: That you have an activity in a time where you
Speaker 2: need to you need You can't be idle. There's no
Speaker 2: kicking back and relaxing.
Speaker 3: No, no, And I think it made Chris feel a
Speaker 3: lot better, and it made me feel a lot better
Speaker 3: that Chris was doing that. I wasn't doing it. I
Speaker 3: could not go to that website.
Speaker 2: But your two girlfriends from Manning Bar were also on
Speaker 2: that side. And was this the point at which you
Speaker 2: resolved not to tell them because you knew that you
Speaker 2: had to keep you had to keep things tight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we thought that when we had gone to
Speaker 1: the police. The police said no, we can tell whoever
Speaker 1: we want.
Speaker 3: But we think that was odd because if it got
Speaker 3: back to him, we're all very close friends, then you
Speaker 3: know that would be it for it.
Speaker 1: He'll just rip it all down.
Speaker 3: So we decided that we wouldn't say it to anyone then,
Speaker 3: and then I guess when we later got a lawyer,
Speaker 3: they just taught us not to.
Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, so you left things with the police.
Speaker 1: YEP.
Speaker 2: At this point, you've done ninety percent of the work,
Speaker 2: You've worked out who it is, you've gone to the police,
Speaker 2: you've got the images, you know that these two of
Speaker 2: your other friends involved. You've left it with them, and
Speaker 2: then they come back to you a little while later.
Speaker 2: And what did they say to you.
Speaker 3: Well, I think just before that we'd realized that that
Speaker 3: like Andy had been making threats to me, and so
Speaker 3: he was saying things like I'm going to wait inside
Speaker 3: her house until she comes in and I'm not going
Speaker 3: to say the rest of it, but it was going
Speaker 3: to break me in my own bed, things like that.
Speaker 2: Right, So he's saying that on on.
Speaker 3: That and yeah, and I know where she works, I
Speaker 3: know where she lives. I'm coming to get that slot.
Speaker 3: Just you guys, wait and so or I'm going to
Speaker 3: put her in a van as she walks home. He
Speaker 3: knows where I live, He's been to my house, he's
Speaker 3: been to my job. So we wrote to the police
Speaker 3: and said, you know these threats and I feel like
Speaker 3: ratscheating up.
Speaker 1: I think that you need to do something at it,
Speaker 1: and they didn't get back.
Speaker 3: To us, and so that we did get a lawyer
Speaker 3: after that because we just thought all that.
Speaker 2: Now that lawyer you got is quite amazing. Yeah, how
Speaker 2: did things change once you got her on board?
Speaker 3: So when we first got her on board, really she
Speaker 3: couldn't do much. In about July ish I got a
Speaker 3: call and it was from the same police officer and
Speaker 3: she just told me that the case was going to
Speaker 3: be suspended unless something else came up.
Speaker 2: Devastating, yeah, angering, yeah, infuriating, unbelievable. Have I left out it?
Speaker 2: I left out I'm imagining that I am you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like you know, between that time, we still
Speaker 3: had this person who'd sent us the email originally that
Speaker 3: private investigator.
Speaker 1: He had found the address of who was posting them
Speaker 1: and it was his address.
Speaker 3: We knew, and his address, and he had the phone
Speaker 3: he was using, and it was the phone that he
Speaker 3: was spending all this information. We kept sending it to
Speaker 3: the police. He was happy to speak to the police, and.
Speaker 1: Just no one, no one cared to do it.
Speaker 3: And so we're getting more and more, like we already
Speaker 3: were very certain but you think it's going in the
Speaker 3: right direction and it's going in a completely different direction.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when you're in law abiding person, your
Speaker 2: first port of call is the police, and you kind
Speaker 2: of think that the police are there to fix things
Speaker 2: when people have broken laws. But that wasn't the case.
Speaker 2: So what did What did you do when the police
Speaker 2: said that they weren't going to go any further.
Speaker 1: Well, first, I cried so sad. He was just so surprised,
Speaker 1: and I looked up what suspended meant, because.
Speaker 3: I'm just like, I know what spend this means in English,
Speaker 3: but I thought, what does.
Speaker 2: It mean in legally legal talk?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we just called our lawyer immediately, and
Speaker 1: you know, she is a gem.
Speaker 3: And we had already been a bit worried that it
Speaker 3: wasn't going anywhere. I still had a very positive attitude,
Speaker 3: but it was just in case it wasn't.
Speaker 1: Our lawyer had given us the name of a.
Speaker 3: Forensic investigator, and I think he used to be in
Speaker 3: the police, and so what he does is he looks
Speaker 3: at all of the evidence or he finds it for himself,
Speaker 3: and then he puts together a report.
Speaker 1: I think that's much more palatable for the police.
Speaker 2: All right, because it's it's in the language, and.
Speaker 3: I think because he used to be a police officer
Speaker 3: or he's been in that area, it has more backing.
Speaker 3: It means more than our silly spreadsheet. And so that
Speaker 3: had already been going. So I remember when I got
Speaker 3: that suspending phone call. I said to her because I
Speaker 3: was desperate, I said, oh, but we've already got We've
Speaker 3: got this man doing something.
Speaker 1: We've paid him a.
Speaker 3: Little bit of money because this preliminary report, but he'll
Speaker 3: do a real one like and she just said, yes,
Speaker 3: send it on through if you get it, And so
Speaker 3: I was like.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So how much does all of that cost?
Speaker 2: So you've now got a lawyer, Yeah, you've got the
Speaker 2: forensic tech guy, you're getting reports made, You're in I imagine
Speaker 2: almost daily contact with your lawyer. How much money have
Speaker 2: you been spending on it?
Speaker 3: In the end, it cost is around twenty thousand dollars
Speaker 3: to get this all done.
Speaker 2: Do you get victims of crime compensation? Is any of
Speaker 2: that covered?
Speaker 1: Or I tried. I tried for it's called reparations, and
Speaker 1: so the.
Speaker 3: Victims Services person put me onto them and they denied it.
Speaker 2: So no, did they give you grounds or.
Speaker 1: It's just a knock back. No, yeah, just knock back,
Speaker 1: all right.
Speaker 2: So now with your forensic guy and the lawyer, you
Speaker 2: can go back to the police and you've got a
Speaker 2: comprehensive report. Then so you do that and then what happens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the lawyer sends them a letter. It was
Speaker 3: a very strongly worded letter. It was great, you know,
Speaker 3: legal legal person, and it just said they demand for
Speaker 3: the case to be reopened.
Speaker 1: Here is this extra evidence we expect to hear back
Speaker 1: by this time. And then that was on.
Speaker 3: It was maybe five days after that I got this
Speaker 3: very strange call at school and I picked it up
Speaker 3: because it was from a random number and that was
Speaker 3: always the police for me, and it was just a
Speaker 3: police officer, so lovely. But he told me that it
Speaker 3: had landed on the right desk. Now it had someone
Speaker 3: would be in contact with me. Now. It just it
Speaker 3: was a nothing phone call except to say, don't go
Speaker 3: and do the complaint you're going to put in somewhere,
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? Oh? Okay, It just
Speaker 3: said we got your thing. It has gone to a detective.
Speaker 3: Now they will be in contact and so what a
Speaker 3: shift five days. I think between Yah, it's two things,
Speaker 3: and I was just ecstatic.
Speaker 1: I could not believe it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because finally something was happening, something had shifted.
Speaker 1: I just yeah, incredible.
Speaker 2: But also in this time, so this really tight core
Speaker 2: group of people that you've been traveling through life with,
Speaker 2: you've not been having contact with them. You've been avoiding them,
Speaker 2: the girls because you don't want to tip off Andy
Speaker 2: about what's happening, and Andy for obvious reasons. But how
Speaker 2: is that to be suddenly estranged from those people who've
Speaker 2: been such a significant part of your life.
Speaker 3: Look, it was very difficult, I think, to stop seeing
Speaker 3: your friends. We just weren't sure that if we saw
Speaker 3: them we wouldn't tell them.
Speaker 1: You know, it was me, Chris and I. Sorry. We
Speaker 1: talked about it.
Speaker 3: I would say almost every day, if not every second day,
Speaker 3: whether we should tell them.
Speaker 1: You know, Chris was watching that.
Speaker 3: Website to make sure he wasn't threatening them, and he
Speaker 3: never was. But you just worry that something will happen
Speaker 3: to them.
Speaker 1: And they won't have known about it.
Speaker 3: However, we were told very strongly from our lawyers, and
Speaker 3: thankfully they did to not say anything. But you just
Speaker 3: can't hang around with your friends. So we didn't, so
Speaker 3: we just pulled back from everyone. We just hang out
Speaker 3: by ourselves. This kind of took over our life at
Speaker 3: this point.
Speaker 2: You must have been scared.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I was, honest. I was terrified all the time.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: There's times where I meant to be at school by
Speaker 3: myself on the weekend.
Speaker 1: Maybe to check something or be on some kind of
Speaker 1: function or something. I wouldn't go. We bought cameras for
Speaker 1: the house.
Speaker 3: I wore an Apple watch that would tell Chris when
Speaker 3: I arrived to school and when I got home, like,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't even keep it was summer, and I wouldn't
Speaker 3: keep the windows open.
Speaker 1: Just in case I was in a different room.
Speaker 3: Because the things that Andy had wrote about me were
Speaker 3: so graffic and they seemed so.
Speaker 1: Real in nature that his ability to.
Speaker 3: Do it, and I reckon, I look, I like to
Speaker 3: say this, but I reckon I.
Speaker 1: Could take him. If I saw would be coming at me,
Speaker 1: they'd be hiding in my house. I don't think. I
Speaker 1: don't know, one can be prepared for that.
Speaker 2: So and also because he knew you, Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 2: that's got another element of it as well.
Speaker 3: And well he lived nearby as well, so I used
Speaker 3: to see people with a beard and the same kind
Speaker 3: of gait of walk, and I would just run. I
Speaker 3: just was so scared that, yeah, we would be surprised.
Speaker 3: And like me and Chris, we slept with a knife
Speaker 3: next to the bird because we just thought things of
Speaker 3: him coming in, or he's been talking to three hundred.
Speaker 1: Men and passing them up on the idea of raping me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, And he was giving out our phone numbers
Speaker 6: in these weird groups that the investigator was in, and
Speaker 6: you don't know if he's given out your address and
Speaker 6: he's made some other men I don't know that you
Speaker 6: don't recognize.
Speaker 1: So I was just terrified.
Speaker 2: And in that time, you haven't bumped into him, but
Speaker 2: then you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were quite lucky.
Speaker 3: I guess we weren't going out as much, so that
Speaker 3: might be why we didn't bump into him as well.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we were going to.
Speaker 3: This it's like a football festival down the road, and
Speaker 3: we knew there was a chance.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's just one of those things that everyone in the
Speaker 3: Inner West kind of community.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and nice. It's got stools and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: And so I said to Chris, I won't come first,
Speaker 3: you go and then let me hear.
Speaker 1: It's like, and I'll come after, just in case.
Speaker 3: And I think, because I can see Chris because we
Speaker 3: have we can follow each other on our iPhones because
Speaker 3: we were so freaked out. He just arrives and I
Speaker 3: get a message that he immediately runs into Andy.
Speaker 1: And he just runs up gives him a massive hug,
Speaker 1: and just.
Speaker 2: Andy hugs Chris.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just like right to see you mate, like normal.
Speaker 3: Like absolutely normal, like more than normal because we hadn't
Speaker 3: seen him for a while at that point, you know,
Speaker 3: super friendly. Yeah, And so he messaged me and he
Speaker 3: told me that he would be there and like you
Speaker 3: can make the decision to.
Speaker 1: Come or not.
Speaker 3: And it just pissed me off because my other friends
Speaker 3: are already there. We went part of that we had
Speaker 3: rated from kind of that group at that point. I
Speaker 3: had another group of.
Speaker 1: Friends and I was like, you know what, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go down there. And he did the same thing
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 3: You know, we hugged, We talked about our life and
Speaker 3: you know, he asked me about my school and the
Speaker 3: house and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he looked you in your eyes, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like like nothing nothing at.
Speaker 2: All, And what did you feel.
Speaker 1: The weird thing is that it still was just my friend, Andy.
Speaker 1: You know, you're so angry, You're so angry, and.
Speaker 3: Chris was there with me, obviously, and you know this
Speaker 3: man is saying these things, but you look him in
Speaker 3: the eyes and it's still the friend you've been friends
Speaker 3: with for ten years. It did not make any sense
Speaker 3: that they were still at all the same person.
Speaker 2: All right, But at this stage, I guess he's still
Speaker 2: compart mentalized, even though academically you know that it's him
Speaker 2: in your heart when you see him, it's your friend.
Speaker 2: But then the police call you again and they have
Speaker 2: news for you about yeah doing a raid. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they did the raid. So I got a
Speaker 1: call at school.
Speaker 3: I was teaching, Thank Christ, I was teaching my year twelve,
Speaker 3: So in my lab I have a big glass wall,
Speaker 3: and I had already told them because I knew it
Speaker 3: was happening that day that I might need to pop
Speaker 3: out for a personal reason, just like them, just for.
Speaker 1: A phone call. They're all working.
Speaker 3: I just pop around to the window where they can't hear,
Speaker 3: and she just said, yeah, we went in.
Speaker 1: He was there. We got everything.
Speaker 3: There was the computers, there was hard drives, there was USBs,
Speaker 3: it was all there. He gave us the passwords, Oh
Speaker 3: is it in with us now?
Speaker 1: And I just you don't.
Speaker 2: Know, you just and how is that feeling?
Speaker 3: It was a relief because apparently if he doesn't give
Speaker 3: the passwords up, they can just put him in jail.
Speaker 1: So you have to do those things. So it was
Speaker 1: just about him being there, but the massive high of
Speaker 1: relief that you have. But also I think.
Speaker 3: We always believed it was him, but it's just another loss,
Speaker 3: isn't it.
Speaker 1: I just felt like, oh my god, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that it was not even through all of it,
Speaker 2: I'm sure there was a part of you that was like,
Speaker 2: let this not be him, Let it not be him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just yeah, still unbelievable.
Speaker 2: And then this is I also find this unbelievable. It
Speaker 2: went to court, Yeah, yes, yes, And in court was
Speaker 2: it during the process of the court that you met
Speaker 2: with the twenty six other women that yeah, were also
Speaker 2: on the side stween.
Speaker 3: That and the court, there was all sorts of weird
Speaker 3: things where the CDPP, the prosecutor, we'd have this many
Speaker 3: charges and then they thought, well, actually it's not porn
Speaker 3: of you, it's your face, and you have no right
Speaker 3: to privacy of your face. So we're going to drop
Speaker 3: the charges to this, then we're going to aggrevate them.
Speaker 3: They went on for two years of this, like doing
Speaker 3: and throwing. So by the time we got to court,
Speaker 3: we're just I was so excited for it to just
Speaker 3: done so when we got there, though, by then I
Speaker 3: had told many of the women.
Speaker 2: There's a lot more to Hannah's story. Right after this
Speaker 2: short break, we dive deeper into how Hannah finally revealed
Speaker 2: the truth to her friends, the ones who were also
Speaker 2: on the website will be right back. So you told
Speaker 2: Jess and Rachel.
Speaker 1: I told several others as well.
Speaker 2: Right, but these were your dear friends.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had told them.
Speaker 2: And how was that? How was that conversation?
Speaker 1: Was awful? Because we pulled back. It was weird. They
Speaker 1: knew something was wrong, and you know.
Speaker 3: One of them was in a car going somewhere and
Speaker 3: I didn't want to tell her then, but she I
Speaker 3: think she was going off seas who knows she was
Speaker 3: doing something that meant it was either now or never,
Speaker 3: And you just don't know how to tell them. So
Speaker 3: I would just recount what happened to me and just
Speaker 3: not say that it was Andy, and then say that
Speaker 3: it was Andy and what had happened, and then say
Speaker 3: and I'm.
Speaker 1: Really sorry to tell you.
Speaker 3: You're sitting down as everything you got someone with you,
Speaker 3: it's also you two and then would asked to get
Speaker 3: sent their things, and you just try and prepare them
Speaker 3: for what they're about to see because it's I.
Speaker 1: Mean, Rachel's one was called, let's rate Rachel. And it
Speaker 1: was just like a born. It was just awful.
Speaker 3: And I think the shock of that is so hard,
Speaker 3: and you're very I mean, they were in shock when
Speaker 3: I told them. But yeah, it's terrible, terrible to be
Speaker 3: that kind of messenger of awful news.
Speaker 2: And also the I mean because it's cost you so much.
Speaker 2: It's cost you that year of friendship minimum minimum, it's
Speaker 2: cost you, I imagine, trust on all sorts of levels.
Speaker 2: So when you went to court and when he was sentenced, well,
Speaker 2: two things I found really interesting what he said when
Speaker 2: he was door stopped by a journalist on the way
Speaker 2: to court.
Speaker 1: Yeah she's our friends.
Speaker 2: Wow, Oh is she?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So she was the producer of the Australian story.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, my good friend's sisters, So that that's how
Speaker 3: she it was important. So she was there both days,
Speaker 3: and she was really on our like she wanted to
Speaker 3: this to be a good like a story. She thought
Speaker 3: it was important, and so that's why it was on
Speaker 3: the news both times.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, she was on our side because she knew what
Speaker 3: had happened to us, you know.
Speaker 1: And yeah, when he said it was what did he say?
Speaker 1: I can't remember.
Speaker 2: He said it was my dark So he's walking into
Speaker 2: court and the reporter says to him, you know, why
Speaker 2: did you do it? And he says something.
Speaker 1: Like dark part of my sight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the dark part of my psyche manifesting, which I
Speaker 2: also thought was an interesting answer because he didn't at
Speaker 2: that point, he didn't try to make an excuse. He didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he didn't say he was sorry.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: But then he was asked how he would feel seeing
Speaker 2: the women in court and how many of you were
Speaker 2: going to be there?
Speaker 3: There was I think eight or nine that were giving
Speaker 3: their victim impact statements, and there was the families.
Speaker 2: Of others, right, And he said, I have to do
Speaker 2: it to see the women.
Speaker 3: Yeah you can read that either way, can't you? Like
Speaker 3: it's I think he has to do it because it's
Speaker 3: legally he has to do it right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got a good story with that. Sorry.
Speaker 3: When all the girls met a bit earlier, so I
Speaker 3: brought my mom. I had a lot of friends from
Speaker 3: Mannipa that came. The police and the victim services woman
Speaker 3: took us into the voyer to wait together and go up.
Speaker 3: He unfortunately came in at that time. He saw us
Speaker 3: all sitting there. I was kind of close to him.
Speaker 3: He looked at my partner, Chris, and he told.
Speaker 1: Chris he was sorry. Oh, and then he got up
Speaker 1: in the lift. I told him to turn around.
Speaker 3: But I just thought it was very interesting that you
Speaker 3: pick the only male partner there to say sorry too
Speaker 3: instead of me. I was his friend, Chris wasn't even
Speaker 3: his good friend.
Speaker 2: Do you think because he couldn't look at you? Or
Speaker 2: do you think through his own admitted history of violent pornography,
Speaker 2: we know that that diminishes women. Yeah, in the eyes
Speaker 2: of the man. Do you think it was? Which do
Speaker 2: you think it was?
Speaker 3: Or I don't think he was a range Because when
Speaker 3: we were in court, and I find this very interesting
Speaker 3: as well, we all sat like all the women sat
Speaker 3: very close. All the front row was the women you know,
Speaker 3: and we knew each other, we had met now before.
Speaker 3: We were holding hands very first, because there was two
Speaker 3: different ones. The first one he sat in our eye
Speaker 3: and if you looked at him, he didn't put his
Speaker 3: head down. He would look right back at you. There
Speaker 3: was no shame there. He looked very fine, like this circle,
Speaker 3: like not smiling or anything.
Speaker 2: He's not like But how long was the court case?
Speaker 2: By the way, it was just two days, two days,
Speaker 2: two days, two long days because he pleaded guilty or.
Speaker 3: Guilty, yeah, all of the charges, so twenty six women
Speaker 3: and then they rolled up all the charges, so I
Speaker 3: had something like fifty something of them, but they rolled
Speaker 3: them all into one charge. But when they were reading
Speaker 3: that at the beginning of the court case as well,
Speaker 3: they have to read out every single one, and it
Speaker 3: went for about forty minutes, just right, It's crazy. But
Speaker 3: when he got up to give his whatever they call it,
Speaker 3: my friend had said to me, you know, I don't
Speaker 3: want to be in this room when he does.
Speaker 1: He has nothing to say to me. Does anyone want
Speaker 1: to do that with me? And I was like, I
Speaker 1: feel that way too.
Speaker 3: I don't want to hear his reasons for doing it.
Speaker 3: And I don't want to hear that he's sorry. So
Speaker 3: we got up and we left.
Speaker 1: My partner stayed in there, and really.
Speaker 3: All he was saying, and it came up later, is
Speaker 3: that he thought it would just be an internet thing.
Speaker 3: It was online harm, not real world hard. And the
Speaker 3: judge did not like that in the end remarks that
Speaker 3: she made right, And he was giving out our full names,
Speaker 3: our number addresses, like were the subways we live in,
Speaker 3: and our occupations.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, and I.
Speaker 3: Got all those messages from random men. It's real world harmed.
Speaker 1: He's done.
Speaker 2: So he said this after he's heard all the victim
Speaker 2: impact statements. Yeah, and what did you say in your
Speaker 2: victim impact statement?
Speaker 1: Look, it's quite long, I guess.
Speaker 3: You know, they ask you to go through the ways monetarily, emotionally.
Speaker 1: And all of these things. I think the big takeaways
Speaker 1: from mine, other than the money and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: Is it was a definite harm. It's done to Chris
Speaker 3: and Mine's relationship. You know, taken these years from us.
Speaker 3: It's three years at this point from us where you know,
Speaker 3: our friends are having babies and they're getting married. And
Speaker 3: the other one I think is that I don't know
Speaker 3: if I'll ever make a male friend again, I think
Speaker 3: that might be done for me for my life now
Speaker 3: after having happened.
Speaker 1: I don't see how I could ever do that and
Speaker 1: fully trust someone without thinking that this could happen again.
Speaker 3: The like complete shock to me as someone that I
Speaker 3: thought was pretty good at that's like vetting people that
Speaker 3: this could fly kind of under my radar.
Speaker 1: Has been like world rocking.
Speaker 2: So it did occur to me to wonder about the
Speaker 2: effect it's had on your relationship with Chris. Because your
Speaker 2: partner is and you've been with him so steadfastly for
Speaker 2: thirteen years. He's at once your protector, he's your friend,
Speaker 2: he's your confidante. He's also supposed to be your lover.
Speaker 2: How do you navigate all of that going forward? When
Speaker 2: you've seen the most abhorrent side of men, and even
Speaker 2: though he's a most honorable man and a champion of
Speaker 2: you to the point where I find it quite moving
Speaker 2: and beautiful, how do you as a woman do that?
Speaker 3: I think, in my smart brain, you've got to realize
Speaker 3: it and is he has to be an outlier, even
Speaker 3: though that you've seen so many men on that website,
Speaker 3: there were so many men there were so many threads
Speaker 3: about Sydney girls, people being their actual needs being posted
Speaker 3: on there like crazy, the amount of people from Sydney
Speaker 3: that were on there, And you have to I guess
Speaker 3: you work through it a lot, like obviously I go
Speaker 3: to therapy now and stuff like that. But Chris, there
Speaker 3: has to be some good ones, just the same way
Speaker 3: as I guess there are going to be some really
Speaker 3: evil ones. And he has been so strong for me
Speaker 3: through it, and you know, such a support and not
Speaker 3: just a support, just so overtly against what Andy has
Speaker 3: done and been a support for the women and spend
Speaker 3: all of his time for those other women as well.
Speaker 1: So you know, I guess you just got to remember that,
Speaker 1: you know what what.
Speaker 2: Told. Do you think it's taken on him? Because it was?
Speaker 2: It's hard to tell with him because he's just so steadfast.
Speaker 2: What do you think it's cost him?
Speaker 1: I don't think that you can look at that website.
Speaker 3: For that much time and not have some kind of
Speaker 3: yea emotional I think it was probably harder on him
Speaker 3: at the very beginning, you know, very shocking. He had,
Speaker 3: as he said in the Australian story, like he had
Speaker 3: a panic attack.
Speaker 1: He's never had born things like that.
Speaker 3: I think what we are really good at together is
Speaker 3: talking about this, like we have never kind of.
Speaker 1: Kept it to ourselves.
Speaker 3: We always talked about how we were feeling together, and
Speaker 3: we always approached it together. So I think he's doing well,
Speaker 3: but you do have to just constantly check in and
Speaker 3: just make sure because that website is so toxic that
Speaker 3: time spent on it is. But I do think that
Speaker 3: as we got this resolution, it's very I don't know
Speaker 3: what the word is. It's not good, but it's like
Speaker 3: vindicating all of that work he put in, you know,
Speaker 3: all of.
Speaker 1: The time, all of the pushing.
Speaker 3: It really led to this result, and the result is incredible.
Speaker 2: The result was he got.
Speaker 1: Five and a half years non parole nine years older. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is.
Speaker 2: Like unheard of, unheard of.
Speaker 3: And we were told and the police select to say
Speaker 3: that they didn't tell us this, but I don't know
Speaker 3: these words. Before they told me this, he was he
Speaker 3: was likely to get a non custodial sentence and.
Speaker 2: Then which means he doesn't go to jail, and.
Speaker 1: Then he would get something called a community corrections order.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what that was, so I.
Speaker 2: Looked it up, but physically, you just you go don't
Speaker 2: go to jail.
Speaker 3: You go to jail, but you just got to be
Speaker 3: good for a little bit. So I thinking that was
Speaker 3: going to happen that day, and all the girls did
Speaker 3: because I told them that that's what I was told.
Speaker 3: We were just shocked when she read it out, like
Speaker 3: we crah.
Speaker 1: Like there was because I think the lawyers knew. Obviously
Speaker 1: they knew.
Speaker 3: And that second day in court, he looked completely different
Speaker 3: because he'd been to jail for a week.
Speaker 1: They put him in jail between two ones. His head
Speaker 1: was down, he.
Speaker 3: Was in his a jump suit, and so we were
Speaker 3: still thinking he wasn't going to jail. We don't know
Speaker 3: what we're thinking. We decided even a week would be amazing.
Speaker 3: And then when she said that, like we gasped and
Speaker 3: everyone cried, and we had girls over the other aisle
Speaker 3: and we ran into them because we were told was chill.
Speaker 1: We ran into the middle and like hugged and it
Speaker 1: was just like, I'll never.
Speaker 2: Forget it, And how is he did you think to
Speaker 2: clock him in that moment looked to him.
Speaker 1: He did nothing. Nothing. I think I think he I think.
Speaker 3: Maybe the lawyers all knew that this was happening. But
Speaker 3: I mean, we're not any real part of it. It
Speaker 3: turns out these things you don't get told anything. No,
Speaker 3: so he had no reaction and then then.
Speaker 2: But very I mean, it was a vindicating It was
Speaker 2: a vindication for you. And also because so often the
Speaker 2: the victims of sexual crimes are suffer twice. Women suffer
Speaker 2: twice minimum twice, because there's the crime, there's what you
Speaker 2: have to take away with and live with, and then
Speaker 2: there's also this this whole the strata of how you're
Speaker 2: broken down as a victim as whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you were believed yeah and it yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: so shocking, and I think it was very vindicating.
Speaker 3: But as you said as well, you know, the judge
Speaker 3: read out all of the things he'd said, and she
Speaker 3: was trying to make a point that these things deserve the.
Speaker 1: Amount of time. But you're sitting there just very like, I.
Speaker 3: Don't know if the other women had heard all of
Speaker 3: the things, because I have put together.
Speaker 1: But you're like, well this is quite really scotoitizing.
Speaker 2: Yes, they have yes, heard it, like yeah, oh, it's
Speaker 2: just I don't know.
Speaker 1: And his family was there and they.
Speaker 2: Were, oh, oh my god, this is Australia's Criminal Code
Speaker 2: was amended in August of this year to sentence anyone
Speaker 2: guilty of creating non consensual deep fake sexually explicit material
Speaker 2: to up to seven years in prison. Do you think
Speaker 2: it was a result of your case.
Speaker 3: No, it was already on the cards, so I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's that specific one. But because Andy spent
Speaker 3: so long posting about me, I think it was two years,
Speaker 3: two and a half years. The very end of my
Speaker 3: stuff would fall under the new stuff that right, But
Speaker 3: it was so few as opposed to the six hundred
Speaker 3: other ones he posted me that they just went, no,
Speaker 3: do it for the old one.
Speaker 1: He's going to get more anyway, right, So no, I
Speaker 1: think that was already coming in. But I think it's
Speaker 1: so important.
Speaker 3: I hope it means that women don't have to or
Speaker 3: men who have this happened to them don't have to
Speaker 3: absolutely battle through to get any kind of justice, because
Speaker 3: it shouldn't mean, you know, all that money, all that
Speaker 3: time we spent and having these kind of connections we
Speaker 3: had to this lawyer and all sorts of stuff, that
Speaker 3: you get justice for twenty six women.
Speaker 2: And also you had someone by your side, and.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right as well.
Speaker 3: I mean, you just everything had to fall in place
Speaker 3: for this one to happen.
Speaker 1: And this online person they got in contact with me.
Speaker 2: Just that's amazing, isn't it. Yeah, and actually tried you
Speaker 2: twice just to under an alias as well. Just click
Speaker 2: on this link.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he still keeps in contact with me today.
Speaker 3: I mean, he was part of the story too, you know,
Speaker 3: just is a genuinely good person.
Speaker 2: So, Hannah, even though and his work, his life, work's
Speaker 2: been shut down on the internet, the Internet being what
Speaker 2: it is, these images of you, these adopted images are
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Chris and I pay for a subscription service
Speaker 3: and it kind of searches the whole internet for my face,
Speaker 3: and so quite often they.
Speaker 1: Still pop up.
Speaker 3: They're on different websites now, so obviously they're not Andy
Speaker 3: because he's in prison, but they're just people that have
Speaker 3: copied them. They're bots hosting them to other porn sites.
Speaker 3: And when they do pop up, they have my name on.
Speaker 1: Them as well.
Speaker 3: And so the way we have dealt with it is
Speaker 3: we ask the police, and the police have been able
Speaker 3: to take most of them down, but they're only taking
Speaker 3: the ones down that we've found and so.
Speaker 2: It's like playing whack a mole.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and then new ones turn up that
Speaker 3: I haven't even seen, so whether they were on a
Speaker 3: different website that we've never seen before.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just constant. So for me, it's going
Speaker 1: to be something I think I can tend with for
Speaker 1: my whole life.
Speaker 3: So I guess if I have children, or if I
Speaker 3: get a new job, it's always going to be something
Speaker 3: that I have to explain to people because they will.
Speaker 1: Be there forever.
Speaker 2: Hey, what happened. I'm imagining you're because you're a school teacher.
Speaker 2: You had to tell the school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I told the school immediately.
Speaker 3: So on that first day after I'd gone to the police,
Speaker 3: because I just thought they could just send them to
Speaker 3: the school, and I need them to know that's not
Speaker 3: of me.
Speaker 1: So I immediately went to the school.
Speaker 3: I'm very lucky. You know, it's an independent school and
Speaker 3: they have just had my back the whole way through.
Speaker 3: You know, they immediately, well not immediately understand it. You
Speaker 3: have to explain to people. I find this is the
Speaker 3: worst part about this kind of deep fake pawn.
Speaker 1: I guess on a professional level is you have.
Speaker 3: To explain what it looks like it's not you, you know,
Speaker 3: and it's damaging in these ways to you, and you've
Speaker 3: got it. It's just such an awkward conversation to have,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: And then of course your students.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so no, I did that at the very beginning,
Speaker 3: so they were knew right at the get go, and
Speaker 3: then the girls only knew right before the Australian story.
Speaker 2: Came out, right, And how is it now with them?
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean they're just amazing, you know.
Speaker 3: They I have like right now, I'm just looking at
Speaker 3: they're like, I got, you know, this massive bunch of flowers.
Speaker 3: I got this anonymous bunch of flowers from the girls
Speaker 3: just saying you know.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's just the sweetest cut ever. I can't read
Speaker 1: out our cry, but you.
Speaker 2: Know this is from your I don't know.
Speaker 3: They just put it on my desk, the bengest thing
Speaker 3: I've ever read, and with a bunch of flowers.
Speaker 1: This was the day after I came back from court.
Speaker 2: Okay, dear miss.
Speaker 1: Brundy, we hope you are well. We wanted to tell.
Speaker 3: You that we think what you did was really brave
Speaker 3: and we really look up to you and how you
Speaker 3: were able to speak out it really inspired us to
Speaker 3: be strong and not stay quiet. Thank you for being
Speaker 3: such a great role model. You're the best science teacher
Speaker 3: and we love you so much.
Speaker 1: Oh it's so nice, isn't it. But I got lots
Speaker 1: of things like that, and you just it was the
Speaker 1: right view.
Speaker 2: So yeah, do you know what, You're just so lovely
Speaker 2: And I don't mean that in an angel sense of lovely.
Speaker 2: I mean that you're just a valiant, beautiful, honorable woman
Speaker 2: who is deeply loved, and I hope the future rises
Speaker 2: to meet you the way that you deserve.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: You may crying now, Well, I think what you're doing
Speaker 2: is so important if someone who's listening is in a
Speaker 2: similar situation. Because your first contact with the police was unsatisfactory,
Speaker 2: but subsequently it was extremely satisfactory, what would you suggest
Speaker 2: to someone who's kind of all, let's see about how
Speaker 2: to proceed pursuing justice for themselves or even to get
Speaker 2: an end to something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very difficult question.
Speaker 3: I think since my story went to air, I've had
Speaker 3: a lot of women contact me on Instagram or Facebook
Speaker 3: or things all over the place with the same problem.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I hope that because of us going
Speaker 1: and saying.
Speaker 3: These things and doing these news reports and everything, that
Speaker 3: maybe they'll have a different experience, and I I would say,
Speaker 3: just don't give up.
Speaker 1: But I think that's really difficult if you're in a
Speaker 1: different position to me. I think I just really hope
Speaker 1: that you know, they have.
Speaker 3: A different experience to me, because I don't think you
Speaker 3: should have to.
Speaker 1: Fight for this, and I don't think you should have
Speaker 1: to tell them don't.
Speaker 3: Give up, because it's actually too hard for a lot.
Speaker 2: Did you at any point think about giving up?
Speaker 1: No, I was so angry.
Speaker 3: Chris and I am a very we're the same type
Speaker 3: of person in the way that we were so so
Speaker 3: mad about this that we would have spent anything to
Speaker 3: get him in that.
Speaker 2: Jail, you know, righteous anger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were just you know, how can this person
Speaker 3: have done this to us? So I guess I would say,
Speaker 3: I hope they have a different experience, you know, stay strong.
Speaker 3: I would let other people know about it. Don't be
Speaker 3: embarrassed about it. People say they would be embarrassed, but
Speaker 3: for me, it's like, I don't know what you're embarrassed about.
Speaker 1: They're not photos of you, you know, they're not. And
Speaker 1: even if they were photos of you. They shouldn't be
Speaker 1: spread around the internet.
Speaker 3: But you just have to stay strong and you know,
Speaker 3: don't be ashamed of this. It's it's going to happen
Speaker 3: to a lot more people, and you know, seek help,
Speaker 3: get help from people, and you know, stay strong.
Speaker 2: What does Chris want to happen?
Speaker 1: What does Chris want to happen?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: What does he want?
Speaker 1: What does he want at the moment?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is he want?
Speaker 1: He's always looking to buy another house us from.
Speaker 2: I don't want actually maybe not bad to leave the house.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so well, look that doesn't future, you know, just
Speaker 3: a nice one and just a lot of time to
Speaker 3: spend with our friends and family and not have it
Speaker 3: this being the constant I'm doing things like this now,
Speaker 3: it's not the constant talk of our every conversation anymore.
Speaker 3: Like it's very infrequent, and it's it's lighter now, and
Speaker 3: you know, we get to joke about it. So I
Speaker 3: guess that's what we're both looking forward to, just you know,
Speaker 3: regular life, even if it's squatted with these times, you know,
Speaker 3: getting back to.
Speaker 2: Law beautiful, a simple.
Speaker 1: Life, Yeah, a simple and boring life.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope you, I hope you have a really
Speaker 2: boring life. That's my wish for you. Hannah is undeniably remarkable,
Speaker 2: isn't she. Her three year battle for justice, despite countless setbacks,
Speaker 2: highlights the challenges of navigating a legal system that's still
Speaker 2: playing catch up with complexity of Internet crimes. Through her
Speaker 2: courage and determination, Hannah has created a lasting legacy, a
Speaker 2: landmark case. In fact, it marked the first time in
Speaker 2: Australia that someone was charged with sharing digitally altered intimate
Speaker 2: images or deep fake pornography. This case has paved the
Speaker 2: way for a growing number of similar cases involving the
Speaker 2: non consensual uploading of digitally altered sexually explicit images. At
Speaker 2: Andrew Hayler's sentencing, Judge Jane Culver described the decision as
Speaker 2: an appropriate vehicle for general deterrence. Thanks to Hannah and
Speaker 2: her devoted and honorable partner and the other brave women
Speaker 2: who stood up in court, future victims of AI driven
Speaker 2: crimes now have hope for justice. The executive producer of
Speaker 2: No Filter is Naima Brown and the senior producer is
Speaker 2: Grace Ruvrey. Audio production is by Jacob Brown and I'm
Speaker 2: your host Kate lane Brook. Thank you for listening.