Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
Speaker 2: to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
Speaker 2: continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
Speaker 2: been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Cassenya Lukitch and this is diary of her birth.
Speaker 2: Today's birth story comes to us from not one, but
Speaker 2: two beautiful women, the surrogate and the intended parent.
Speaker 1: Took me out her coffee one day and I really
Speaker 1: fell off my chair when she said I want to
Speaker 1: be your surrogate, and I told her she was mad.
Speaker 2: But srogacy in Australia is no easy feat. The laws
Speaker 2: surrounding it are incredibly complex, and perhaps the key difference
Speaker 2: here is that surrogacy is an altruistic act in Australia,
Speaker 2: which in my opinion makes this story even more remarkable.
Speaker 1: And it felt like like we weren't strangers at that
Speaker 1: point either, so it felt like you know, a friend
Speaker 1: doing this for us so and we both just knew
Speaker 1: deep down that this journey would be a great one.
Speaker 2: So let's meet today's mums.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Trudy Bateman and this is my sarrogacy birth
Speaker 1: story A Lily. Hi. My name is Julie and this
Speaker 1: is my birth story for baby Lily. As Trudy's friend
Speaker 1: and sarrogate.
Speaker 2: Meeting her partner Tom Later in life, Trudy knew that
Speaker 2: the journey to parenthood may not be so easy, and
Speaker 2: after a medical procedure left her unable to carry her
Speaker 2: own children, she turned to surrogacy. Tom's sister Sarah, was
Speaker 2: the surrogate for their first child, Bonnie, born in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: And she got pregnant first go and COVID then hit
Speaker 1: a few months later and she had to fly back
Speaker 1: from the US to give birth in Sydney during the
Speaker 1: height of COVID. So so we're really lucky first go
Speaker 1: round to have Bonnie through sarrogacy.
Speaker 2: But knowing they wanted a sibling, they turned to the
Speaker 2: sarrogacy community via a Facebook.
Speaker 1: Group, and then we decided to put our effort back
Speaker 1: into the Australian surrogacy community and see if we could
Speaker 1: find a surrogate that you know, we didn't know because
Speaker 1: no one in our close circle lafriends or family was
Speaker 1: able to do it, so we joined the Australian Surrogacy
Speaker 1: community to see if we could meet someone potentially to
Speaker 1: be our surrogate. Tell us about how you met Julie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I met Julie through the community in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: It was so I had just entered the community, I
Speaker 1: was learning, and she had just given birth to her
Speaker 1: first surrogate baby, and she was, I guess, riding the
Speaker 1: highs of the post birth of surrogacy. And we chatted
Speaker 1: a fair bit and I asked her lots of questions
Speaker 1: because I was trying to learn a lot about surrogacy
Speaker 1: in Australia. And my sister in law then offered to
Speaker 1: be our surrogate. So we went through that journey, and
Speaker 1: then fast forward to twenty twenty three and we just
Speaker 1: had our failed journey with our other surrogate for a sibling,
Speaker 1: and so I went to one of the in person
Speaker 1: catch ups through the Facebook community and Julie was there,
Speaker 1: and I'd never actually met her in person before. So
Speaker 1: we sat and we chatted and drank Margarita's all night,
Speaker 1: and I guess the rest is history. We saw each
Speaker 1: other a lot after that and caught up, and then
Speaker 1: she took me out for coffee one day and I
Speaker 1: really fell off my chair when she said I want
Speaker 1: to be your surrogate, and I told her she was mad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a crazy idea, and I thought she was
Speaker 1: a retired surrogate, but she was adamant that she was
Speaker 1: ready to do another journey for Tom and I.
Speaker 2: So how does the proces work?
Speaker 1: So we really delved into all of the topics that
Speaker 1: we needed to cover to make sure we really were
Speaker 1: on the same page. So there's lots of things to discuss.
Speaker 1: You want to make sure you're on the same page
Speaker 1: about termination, about what the birth looks like, about vaccinations,
Speaker 1: about diet, exercise, or what happens in pregnancy, birth and beyond.
Speaker 1: So I guess first off, we wanted to make sure
Speaker 1: we ticked off everything on that list to make sure
Speaker 1: we were on the same page and that there was
Speaker 1: nothing that was going to come up later that would
Speaker 1: be detrimental to our team. So that was kind of
Speaker 1: the first step. And once we knew we're all on
Speaker 1: the same page, we go and do the mandatory counseling
Speaker 1: that you do, so you do intended parents do counseling
Speaker 1: Julie does counseling, and then we all do counseling together
Speaker 1: to try to, I guess, go through everything to make
Speaker 1: sure there's no red flags, to make sure that we're
Speaker 1: all on the same page, and it really is one
Speaker 1: of those exercise you've got to do as part of
Speaker 1: the legal process. Then we go through the legal side,
Speaker 1: which is to write a surrogacy agreement, We get independent
Speaker 1: legal advice, we signed that agreement. We then have to
Speaker 1: go through our ethics committee at the IBS clinics. Julie
Speaker 1: has to go through and get approved as a surrogate
Speaker 1: from a specialist obstetrician. We have to get approved as
Speaker 1: requiring surrogacy. We need to have a legitimate reason for
Speaker 1: requiring surrogacy. So all of that needs to happen, and
Speaker 1: the IVF clinics have to approve your case. And once
Speaker 1: you've been approved, then you can move forward to the
Speaker 1: next step, which is the transfer stage to trying to
Speaker 1: transfer those embryos.
Speaker 2: And one thing that I personally love hearing from parents
Speaker 2: who have gone through in fertility is what was it
Speaker 2: like getting that positive test.
Speaker 1: When Jules told us, You know, it was immediate shock
Speaker 1: that you'd done it already, but I was so happy
Speaker 1: that she had been sneaky as well, because the pressure
Speaker 1: of that blood test and it's just it's so overwhelming
Speaker 1: to go to that blood test and then wait for
Speaker 1: the phone call. So when she did that and I
Speaker 1: saw Tom kind of automatically going, yeah, nah, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to have the blood test too,
Speaker 1: and she pulled it out, I was like, here we
Speaker 1: go with. You know, we've hicked that first hule, that
Speaker 1: is the biggest one. And yeah. It was complete disbelief
Speaker 1: because you know, at that stage, we only had one embryo,
Speaker 1: so we had one shot at it as well. So
Speaker 1: when Jules offered to be our surrogate, we didn't have
Speaker 1: any embryos. We were doing round after round after round
Speaker 1: trying to make embryos and transferring them to me just
Speaker 1: to try for a miracle. And when she asked us
Speaker 1: if she could be our surrogate, then I said to Tom,
Speaker 1: just one more round, Just one more I'd said that
Speaker 1: many times, but I really meant it this time. And
Speaker 1: it was the magic round. And I was forty four
Speaker 1: and a half, so it was such a small chance
Speaker 1: of it being a normal embryo, and sure enough I
Speaker 1: got one embryo. She was normal, and that was the
Speaker 1: one embryo we had to transfer to Jules. So there
Speaker 1: was a lot writing on that transfer as well. Coming up.
Speaker 1: She kept saying to me, I think it's strong to
Speaker 1: go to hospital, Mum. I think I think we need
Speaker 1: to get out of here.
Speaker 2: The time has finally come. And despite being a midwife herself,
Speaker 2: Julie was like every other mum in early labor.
Speaker 1: The contractions had really picked up by then, and so
Speaker 1: I actually messaged a friend of mine and said, I
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with myself. You know, these
Speaker 1: contractions are getting stronger. I just I'm so tired, and
Speaker 1: I'm a midwife, and I'm seeking the advice of a
Speaker 1: friend to say what do I do. So ended up
Speaker 1: calling Truty, and Truty like, oh, we're on, I'll head over.
Speaker 1: I said, no, No, don't head over yet, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe get Tom home from work. But I, in my head,
Speaker 1: I felt wearing for a long hul there is another
Speaker 1: eighteen hours before you know, we meet this baby, So
Speaker 1: no need to rush and no need to panic. But
Speaker 1: I could hear in Trudy's voice that she was probably
Speaker 1: feeling quite nervous and anxious. Anyway, I hung up from
Speaker 1: her and got my daughter home from work. She arrived
Speaker 1: home and I was in the shower being quite vocal,
Speaker 1: so she was a bit sort of scared. Anyway, I
Speaker 1: continued to labor at home, tried the bath. I didn't
Speaker 1: realize at the time that my poor daughter was feeling
Speaker 1: extremely overwhelmed. It was just the two of us here.
Speaker 1: She kept saying to me, I think it's time to
Speaker 1: go to hospital. Mum, I think, stime, I think we
Speaker 1: need to get out of here. I'll just give truth
Speaker 1: to a call and let it. No, don't call Trudy,
Speaker 1: don't tell Trudy. Trudy doesn't need to be here.
Speaker 3: It's too early.
Speaker 1: It's too early. And then my other support person, who
Speaker 1: is a dear friend, Hannah, who also is a midwife.
Speaker 1: I'd been in touch with her, and she said, let
Speaker 1: me come over, let me come over, and I said, no,
Speaker 1: it's only early, it's too early to come over. Little
Speaker 1: did I know it was things were really happening quite quickly.
Speaker 1: So Indian Hannah did come over, and Trudy and Tom
Speaker 1: had actually left home. Despite me saying, no, it's going
Speaker 1: to be hours yet, But thankfully they'd left home to
Speaker 1: head over in this direction, and my daughter had actually
Speaker 1: then messaged Trudy and said, look, meet us at the hospital.
Speaker 1: Don't come here because things are progressing quickly, so just
Speaker 1: come straight to the hospital. The drive to the hospital
Speaker 1: is quite harrowing. It wasn't an enjoyable ride. I'm only
Speaker 1: five minutes from the hospital, but it was really I
Speaker 1: think I've scarred my daughter for life with that drive.
Speaker 2: After arriving at the hospital, Trudy and Tom were right
Speaker 2: there in the delivery room waiting for their child to
Speaker 2: be born.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Jules had her support people around her as
Speaker 1: well as Tom and I. So she had her daughter
Speaker 1: and her best friend and her two midwives there and
Speaker 1: Tom and I in the room. And for a lot
Speaker 1: of it, they'd done that before with Jules. They'd been
Speaker 1: her support person, so they knew exactly how to get
Speaker 1: her through the labor. So they had a huge role
Speaker 1: in helping her. And there was lots of moments when
Speaker 1: Tom and I were over there holding her hand and
Speaker 1: telling her how wonderful she was, and a lot of
Speaker 1: moments where poor Tom was hiding in the back because
Speaker 1: he was quite traumatized as well. You get a good
Speaker 1: sense of what it feels like to be the partner
Speaker 1: of the person giving birth when you feel so helpless
Speaker 1: and there's nothing you can do to take that pain
Speaker 1: away from them. They've just got to kind of get
Speaker 1: through it. So it's really hard to watch, especially in
Speaker 1: a surrogacy birth. Feels like such a privilege to be
Speaker 1: in the room for a surrogacy birth because they are
Speaker 1: so rare and they're so emotional. And I remember I
Speaker 1: was right but Tom and I were right beside Julie
Speaker 1: on that last push, and I remember the midwife saying,
Speaker 1: you know, pop your head down and have a look.
Speaker 1: You'll see her come out. And I saw this dark
Speaker 1: hair and then I saw her face and she was
Speaker 1: still in the sack. It was the most incredible thing
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. So she was still in the sack,
Speaker 1: and the midwife, Heidi, had to kind of tear the
Speaker 1: sack open around her face, and it was the most
Speaker 1: incredible thing I've ever seen, sort of seeing her kind
Speaker 1: of come out of this sack. Water went everywhere, and
Speaker 1: then you know, it was just one contraction and she
Speaker 1: was completely out, like it wasn't just her head it
Speaker 1: was her whole body was just kind of came over
Speaker 1: and flipped onto Julie. So it felt like it happened
Speaker 1: really quickly. At the end, there we were at the
Speaker 1: hospital less than two hours and even looking at Julie
Speaker 1: and we've got photos from the berth, we had a
Speaker 1: birth photographer, and just the look of shock, like we
Speaker 1: all knew a baby was going to be born, but
Speaker 1: just the look on Julie's face was like, Wow, she's
Speaker 1: looked gobsmack that she'd done it. And I couldn't believe
Speaker 1: this baby was there either, after everything that we've been through.
Speaker 1: So it really is the most surreal experience seeing that
Speaker 1: baby for the first time and then hearing her cry.
Speaker 1: She cried straight away, so that was, you know, the
Speaker 1: hugest thing of relief for me is to hear a
Speaker 1: cry and see everybody okay. So it was incredible.
Speaker 2: Despite delivering a healthy baby girl still in the memoranes,
Speaker 2: might I add, things took a scary turn for Julie.
Speaker 1: I noticed that the dynamics in the room had changed
Speaker 1: between my friends, my midwifs, and I thought something wasn't right.
Speaker 1: And I looked at Heidi and I said to her
Speaker 1: I'm bleeding, aren't I? And she said, yeah, yeah you are.
Speaker 1: So I knew at that point I just needed to
Speaker 1: focus on newly and let them do what they needed
Speaker 1: to do. The doctor came in very quickly to try
Speaker 1: and stop the bleeding, and then you know, all the
Speaker 1: different drugs and ivy fluids and commenced, and I just
Speaker 1: kept looking at Tom and Trudy. I just kept making
Speaker 1: them my focus and tried to sort of distance myself
Speaker 1: to what was happening because I've been in the emergencies
Speaker 1: before and they're not much fun. So I thought, I
Speaker 1: just and I remember looking at Trudy and Tom saying,
Speaker 1: I'm just not ready to hand her over yet. I
Speaker 1: just needed her to stay on me. And they had
Speaker 1: no objections at all that were like no, no keeper,
Speaker 1: please keep her so and I think she was probably
Speaker 1: looking back at photos. I think she's probably about forty
Speaker 1: forty five minutes before I handed her over. I just
Speaker 1: didn't feel ready until that point. I just felt like
Speaker 1: I needed her with me, and I felt no pressure
Speaker 1: or no sense of urgency from Trudy or Tom to
Speaker 1: hand her over. Yeah, it was probably around four o'clock
Speaker 1: when I handed her over, and by that stage the
Speaker 1: bleeding had settled and stopped and the doctors had finished
Speaker 1: doing what they needed to do.
Speaker 2: This moment of pure love and selflessness, despite the craziness,
Speaker 2: is incredibly heartwarming to me. But then it was time
Speaker 2: for Julie to hand over Lily to her intended parents.
Speaker 1: I felt very passionately about being the one that handed
Speaker 1: the baby that I've grown over to her parents. I didn't,
Speaker 1: you know, want someone to take her off me and
Speaker 1: hand her over, And we'd sort of discussed that during
Speaker 1: pregnancy that you know, what if the baby's born and
Speaker 1: she's not well and she has to go to the
Speaker 1: special care nursery, you know how a handover might look
Speaker 1: in that scenario. Thankfully we weren't faced with that. But
Speaker 1: to me, that handover was really important because that's that
Speaker 1: real altruistic part where what you've done and that that
Speaker 1: official handover to the parents was pretty special and yeah,
Speaker 1: very very emotionally fueled.
Speaker 3: Lots of tears true to tell me about meeting Lily
Speaker 3: for the first time.
Speaker 1: One of the best parts I think about Zeregacy is
Speaker 1: actually watching Julie with that baby as well, so we
Speaker 1: get to see what she looks like we get to
Speaker 1: look over her and see this incredible human that Jewles
Speaker 1: has grown. And she could have stayed there for hours,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have bothered me. I'd waited years for this moment,
Speaker 1: so I didn't care how long it took for Jewels
Speaker 1: to hand her over, Like that is the moment. You know,
Speaker 1: all the planning or the counseling, all the legs, all
Speaker 1: the whole pregnancy, you're leading up to this moment when
Speaker 1: the baby's born, she's healthy, and then you have that
Speaker 1: handover moment. And so that to us, we needed to
Speaker 1: preserve that. And it was a beautiful moment because Jewles
Speaker 1: literally just picked her up and handed her to me.
Speaker 1: And it's the most emotional moment because I could not
Speaker 1: give birth to her, but you know, she is genetically mine.
Speaker 1: She is Throughout the whole pregnancy, I felt close enough
Speaker 1: to Jules that she still felt like she was mine.
Speaker 1: And it's yeah, it's just that moment that we become
Speaker 1: parents again, thanks to the selflessness of our beautiful surrogate, Julie.
Speaker 1: So it's an incredible moment and thank goodness, we've got,
Speaker 1: you know, the photos to remember it by, and we've
Speaker 1: all got a great memory of that process because it
Speaker 1: was something that we had wanted for so long. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she was healthy and Jules was healthy. Like, you know,
Speaker 1: she had the big bleed, but at that point of handover,
Speaker 1: we knew the bleeding had stopped, she'd been sewed up,
Speaker 1: and everything was hopefully okay. It was definitely a scary
Speaker 1: moment because I knew something was going on, and you can,
Speaker 1: I saw that moment kind of let dynamic in the
Speaker 1: room change as well, and I'm automatically like, how's Julie.
Speaker 1: Is Julie okay? Is Julie okay? And I just wanted
Speaker 1: to know that she was okay and yeah, and goodness
Speaker 1: was okay.
Speaker 2: Now, the fourth trimester looked a bit different for this family,
Speaker 2: but one thing's for sure, Baby Lily had no shortage
Speaker 2: of love and nutrition.
Speaker 1: I also induced blactation, so I was able to feed Lily.
Speaker 1: So that was something that was really special. That also
Speaker 1: happened posts you know, just after the birth. So after
Speaker 1: the handover, I got to feed Lily, and that then
Speaker 1: makes me feel part of then growing her. You know,
Speaker 1: jewels grow her to nine months, and I got to
Speaker 1: grow her afterwards. So it's a really special thing to
Speaker 1: be able to do that. And Jewels also pumped milk
Speaker 1: for us to help, So really the two of us
Speaker 1: grew her, you know, for the first few months. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm eternally grateful that Jewels gave up years really of
Speaker 1: her life, control of her poor body. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: we've got this beautiful little girl now to celebrate.
Speaker 2: Here on Diary of a Birth, lucky enough to have
Speaker 2: the wisdom of Australia's favorite pediatrician, doctor Gollie, to give
Speaker 2: us some insight into some of our burning medical questions. Now,
Speaker 2: what I really wanted to know is how does inducing
Speaker 2: lactation work? And can anyone do it?
Speaker 4: It's a really fascinating question. The answer is yes, it
Speaker 4: is possible. It's not particularly easy. You know, there's a
Speaker 4: certain cascade of hormone changes, body changes that happen throughout
Speaker 4: pregnancy that set the scene for breastfeeding and breast milk production. Ultimately,
Speaker 4: what you need to make breast milk is you need
Speaker 4: three things. You need stimulation, which means baby sucking on
Speaker 4: nipple or a breast pump providing that stimulation. You need
Speaker 4: the lactating woman to have good hydration, so you need
Speaker 4: to drink lots of water, and you also need to sleep,
Speaker 4: so sleep water stimulation equals breast milk. Now, you don't
Speaker 4: actually need that cascade of pregnancy and delivery in order
Speaker 4: to create breast milk. You can actually stimulate someone to
Speaker 4: make milk just simply by stimulating the nipple. So technically,
Speaker 4: and it's not something I recommend for anyone to do,
Speaker 4: but technically, if you sucked on someone's nipple enough, they
Speaker 4: would eventually lactate.
Speaker 2: Witnessing that magical moment when a surrogate hands over the baby,
Speaker 2: it's hard to put into words.
Speaker 4: I don't know that there is a more beautiful, noble, altruistic,
Speaker 4: and magnanimous act on the planet. I just can't think
Speaker 4: of one. It blows my mind. I get so emotional
Speaker 4: every time I'm involved in one of these incredible cases
Speaker 4: because I know how challenging pregnancy can be. I know
Speaker 4: how challenging childbirth is, and for someone to voluntarily put
Speaker 4: themselves through that, they're family through that, their partner, their
Speaker 4: own children, if that's the case, in order to give
Speaker 4: the gift of life and the gift of family to
Speaker 4: another person, sometimes a stranger, it completely blows my mind,
Speaker 4: and for me, it doesn't matter if there's any money exchanged.
Speaker 4: It's just absolutely phenomenal. I can't find the words to
Speaker 4: describe how much I'm speechless when I talk about it.
Speaker 4: So the moment that a child is born and the
Speaker 4: surrogate or obstetrician, pediatrician, whomever it may be, hands that
Speaker 4: baby to the expectant parents, it really is very, very
Speaker 4: very difficult to describe. It's a kind of magic that
Speaker 4: you feel really privileged to be able to witness that.
Speaker 4: And then I hear a lot from the carrying mothers
Speaker 4: that that comment like you've heard like you do it
Speaker 4: for that moment. You do it for the moment where
Speaker 4: you hand the child over and you can see this
Speaker 4: couple or this individual that has usually come to this
Speaker 4: point with so many years of trauma, heartache, pregnancy loss,
Speaker 4: fertility struggles, and to get to that point where they
Speaker 4: are holding their own child. It's special. To say the
Speaker 4: very very least.
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us on Diary of a Birth,
Speaker 2: where we celebrate all the amazing ways that we as
Speaker 2: women bring life into the world.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to share your birth.
Speaker 2: Story with us, we'd love to hear from you. Details
Speaker 2: are in the show notes. Diary of a Birth was
Speaker 2: hosted by me Cassenia Lukige, with expert input fromp Doctor Golly.
Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Tom Lyon and myself Cassane Lukage,
Speaker 2: with audio production by Scott Stronik,