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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Summer book Club. Today, we are talking about

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Speaker 2: Miranda Juli's novel All Fours. I'm Jesse Stevens, I'm m Vernum.

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Speaker 3: And I am Holly Wainwright and we are the hosts

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Speaker 3: of Mamma Mia out Loud. This is the Veggie Might

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Speaker 3: of books. In some ways. It was an enormous ensation

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Speaker 3: when it came out. It was described by the New

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Speaker 3: York Times as the world's first great perimenopausal novel. It

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Speaker 3: has been nominated for many awards. It's been a best seller,

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Speaker 3: it has sold its socks off, it has been optioned

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Speaker 3: as you would imagine. But I say it's the Veggie

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Speaker 3: Might of books because people either love this book or

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Speaker 3: it really annoyed them.

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Speaker 1: So I think we should put our cards on the table.

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Speaker 3: First off, about where we sat on that, because the

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Speaker 3: whole point of a book club, let's just be clear,

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Speaker 3: is not that everybody had I love that book. Whatever

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Speaker 3: we're discussing it, we're tossing it around. We're thrown around

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Speaker 3: its ideas. We assume you've all read it. Where did

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Speaker 3: we sit?

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Speaker 2: I loved it. I did not know it was this

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Speaker 2: divisive until I googled it and looked at its Goodreads ratings,

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Speaker 2: and I think that proper reviews across like oh No,

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Speaker 2: proper reviews very critically acclaimed, but the average person. I

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Speaker 2: was saying that there's been so many book clubs about this,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people have said I could not

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Speaker 2: finish it.

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Speaker 1: I could not get through it.

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Speaker 2: I personally loved it. I thought it asked really interesting questions.

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Speaker 2: I could have spent even longer in Miranda July's head,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's where I was. I really enjoyed

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Speaker 2: spending time with her thoughts. I think it's a classic,

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Speaker 2: it will turn into a classic, and it made me

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Speaker 2: think entirely differently about a life stage that, despite all

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Speaker 2: the books written since the beginning of time, has barely

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Speaker 2: been touched. So I thought it was brave and shameless

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Speaker 2: in that way. How about you, Am, What did you think?

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Speaker 1: I did not like this book?

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Speaker 3: This is great.

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Speaker 1: However, I could not put it down.

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Speaker 4: So I don't really understand the reviews of people who

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Speaker 4: didn't like it and couldn't finish it because I literally

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Speaker 4: couldn't put it down. I think her writing, Randa Julyized

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Speaker 4: writing is so captivating and brilliant, and it like forces

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Speaker 4: you to stay there, like there's no way. I was

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Speaker 4: reading it on the toilet, like I physically couldn't put

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Speaker 4: this book down. I think her writing is just so

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Speaker 4: old you would approve of that.

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Speaker 3: I feel like Miranda July, I would be a big

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Speaker 3: fan of you reading it on the toilet.

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Speaker 4: God, I thought it was just such honest storytelling. However,

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Speaker 4: the overarching scenes that happen in the book, I was

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Speaker 4: a bit like like, oh no, I can't get behind this.

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Speaker 4: And there were times halfway through the book I started

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Speaker 4: recommending it to older people, including my mom. Oh no,

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Speaker 4: And then when I got to the end, I was like,

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Speaker 4: I don't think you'll like this.

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Speaker 3: Well, one of the reasons it's a perfect book club

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Speaker 3: book for our particular Momame Out Loud book club is

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Speaker 3: because Emily Vernon is in her twenties ye, and Jesse

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Speaker 3: Stevens is in her thirties, and I'm in my early fifties,

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Speaker 3: so we all come at this book from a very

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Speaker 3: different place.

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Speaker 2: Is this what Perry is like for you, Holly?

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Speaker 3: Well, Like I didn't move out of my home and

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Speaker 3: god live in a motel and strike up an affair

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Speaker 3: with a younger man, if that's what you've mean. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I'm also on team I love this book like

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Speaker 3: I love this book.

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Speaker 1: And I could not put it down. I was obsessed.

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Speaker 3: I was listening to it and reading it, which is

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Speaker 3: what I do when I'm really obsessed with the book

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Speaker 3: is I'll listen and read at the same time, Like

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Speaker 3: in the car, I'm listening, and when I get home

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Speaker 3: and I read, and then I get in the car

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Speaker 3: and I listen, and I did. That would demon COPD too,

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Speaker 3: like when I'm really I just need to be in

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Speaker 3: that world echo all the things that Jesse says about

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Speaker 3: I just think it's so brave, era defining, Like it's

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Speaker 3: a proper work of art, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are many many books in the world. I

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Speaker 1: write books.

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Speaker 3: There are lots of different reasons why we write books,

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Speaker 3: but there are some books that are a proper work

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Speaker 3: of art, and this is one of those books. Now,

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Speaker 3: not all art is for everybody, do you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean? This was definitely for me. But I know

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Speaker 3: exactly why it's so divisive. It is divisive because the

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Speaker 3: topics that this book touches on are exactly the topics

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Speaker 3: that are the third rails, particularly in women's lives.

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Speaker 1: So we are.

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Speaker 3: Dealing with aging, which you know nobody likes, sexuality obviously, motherhood,

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Speaker 3: non monogamy, non traditional marriage. We are dealing with birth trauma.

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Speaker 3: We are dealing with cheating. We are dealing with tampons,

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Speaker 3: all kinds of kinky sex, and the very divisive issue

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Speaker 3: of interior decorating. So I think really like you couldn't

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Speaker 3: have a more provocationative book.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that I would like to set

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Speaker 2: up the premise a little bit in terms of an analogy.

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Speaker 3: Before you do that, Jesse, I'm asking the book group

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Speaker 3: of questions, do you think we need to talk a

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Speaker 3: little bit about what it's about her?

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Speaker 1: Are we assuming that all our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Now, I reckon, can you give us just like a quick,

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Speaker 2: quick rundown, a very toplight because people might have read

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Speaker 2: it a little while ago.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a little plot summary and also a little top

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Speaker 3: line about Miranda July.

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Speaker 1: She was new to me.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say, like, cool people, properly cool people

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Speaker 3: have been across Miranda July for a long time. So

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Speaker 3: she is an artist. She is now in her mid forties.

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Speaker 3: She's made movies, she's made movies, she's written other books,

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Speaker 3: and she's an avant garde visual artist. She's not a

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Speaker 3: kind of like rom com queen or something. You know,

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Speaker 3: she's a very specific type of artist. But people who

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Speaker 3: are cool and who are across her were hanging out

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Speaker 3: for this book, and then people like me who didn't

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Speaker 3: really know about her but read this book and went, wow,

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Speaker 3: she sounds interesting and then started to explore her.

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Speaker 1: You're like wow.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of crossover betwre in the plot

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Speaker 3: and her real life, so very top line. The plot

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Speaker 3: follows an unnamed female narrator who is forty five semi

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Speaker 3: famous artist herself, and she basically comes across a creative

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Speaker 3: and personal crisis in her early midlife. Right while she's

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Speaker 3: questioning her marriage and everything, she comes into twenty thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars from a payment she wasn't necessarily expecting, and she

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Speaker 3: decides that she's going to go to a sort of

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Speaker 3: writing event in New York City and she's going to

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Speaker 3: drive across the country to get there because she's going

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Speaker 3: to have an adventure and self discovery and whatever. But

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Speaker 3: she never gets further than half an hour from her home,

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Speaker 3: where she stops at a motel, bails herself up there,

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Speaker 3: spends all the money on doing it up, and then

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Speaker 3: embarks on an improbable and inappropriate, obsessive sort of affair.

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Speaker 1: With a younger man. That is kind of the arc.

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Speaker 3: There is so much more to that because then she

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Speaker 3: returns home and she has to grapple with all.

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Speaker 1: Of those things.

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Speaker 2: It is also the genre is auto fiction, and autofiction

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Speaker 2: is when there are elements of this that are autobiographical, certainly,

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Speaker 2: and July admits that, but it's literary. It's also imagined,

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Speaker 2: and she actually doesn't like the term auto fiction.

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Speaker 1: Lots of people are bringing that to her.

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Speaker 3: She says, it is very close to the bone and

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Speaker 3: she wanted to fully embody that character by making her

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Speaker 3: very close to her But it is fiction because.

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Speaker 4: I feel like when you say auto fiction, it just

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Speaker 4: brings in a whole lot of like people just want

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Speaker 4: to know what's fact and what's not.

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Speaker 1: Well, people do, though, want to know that.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that she has one child who I

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Speaker 2: believe is non binary, and explores marriage in a way

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Speaker 2: that seems to parallel her real life even the career,

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Speaker 2: like there are definitely parallels, and the fact that she

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Speaker 2: kept the protagonist unnamed. It's like she was just okay

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Speaker 2: for us to project that it was her. But the premise,

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Speaker 2: I think can be also summarized in this analogy. So

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Speaker 2: early on her husband, Harris, you know, their relationship is complicated,

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Speaker 2: but he's certainly not a villain. He's not a bad man.

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Speaker 3: And he's a film director. He's her real life husband.

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Speaker 3: Is so another ARTI another art he kind of DoD I.

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Speaker 1: Bet Shuman's being super sexy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he seemed quite sexy and nice and

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Speaker 2: good dad and all that kind of stuff. Now he

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Speaker 2: is sitting at I think it's like a dinner party scenario.

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Speaker 2: And he has a theory that there are two types

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Speaker 2: of people. There are parkers and there are drivers. And

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Speaker 2: he says that drivers don't need applause for every single

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Speaker 2: little thing. They get joy from the boring stuff, from

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Speaker 2: patting a dog, hanging out with their kid. That is

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Speaker 2: enough for them. That is why they're primed for a

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Speaker 2: cross country drive. They're happy to do the long drives. Parkers,

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, need a discrete task that seems impossible.

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Speaker 2: They thrive at moments of crisis. They like things that

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Speaker 2: are difficult. For example, they like when people say applaud

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Speaker 2: them because they were able to get their car into

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Speaker 2: a really tight spot, and the rest of the time,

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Speaker 2: and this is what Harris says, they're bored and fundamentally

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Speaker 2: kind of disappointed. Now are you at parker or a driver?

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Speaker 4: When I read this analogy in the book, I didn't understand,

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Speaker 4: And now you've made me understand.

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Speaker 2: I must say I still am getting my head around it.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of people have struggled with the analogy

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Speaker 2: and other people its just here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm a parker.

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Speaker 4: I think not a lot of things bring me joy

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Speaker 4: if it's not like something that I know I've worked really,

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Speaker 4: really hard towards and I deserve that joy. When he

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Speaker 4: was describing drivers, they just seem like happy all the time.

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Speaker 4: And I don't hint, yeah, yeah, and I don't think

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Speaker 4: that's me.

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Speaker 3: How about you, Holly, I don't know, Like I think

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Speaker 3: I'm a driver, but I have a suspicion I might

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Speaker 3: be more of a park I mean, I'm I went

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Speaker 3: on the record, I'm terrible at both, literally, like I

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Speaker 3: one of my stories I always tell you, Jesse, is

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Speaker 3: that I'm very good at parking. Very My mother has

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Speaker 3: ever given me a compliment about was the time that

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Speaker 3: I did a parallel park and she said, of all

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Speaker 3: the things you can do that that's really impressive.

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Speaker 2: I think that's illustrative of who you are.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're a parker with a driver rising.

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Speaker 2: I feel as though I was a parker and I've

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Speaker 2: become a driver. Even though Harris in this says you

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Speaker 2: can't go from one to the other, you can't want

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Speaker 2: to be another. A lot of drivers want to be

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Speaker 2: parkers because they think that they're more spontaneous and more fun.

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Speaker 1: And creative and interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I must say that I feel as though

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Speaker 2: I'm leaning more into the boring long drive rather than

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Speaker 2: I do a lot of boring long driving in my life. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: our artist, our protagonist too is unnamed, is a parker

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Speaker 2: the whole point of this, right, she is, And this

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Speaker 2: is one of the criticisms that a lot of people

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Speaker 2: have for this book. There is no question she is neurotic,

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Speaker 2: She is hard work, she is difficult, like there are

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Speaker 2: all of those things are one hundred percent probably depressed.

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Speaker 1: I want to be a driver now.

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Speaker 3: No, no, But if that gets to the whole crux

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Speaker 3: of this is being like a likable, happy, gir lucky person.

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Speaker 1: The only kind of protagonist you want.

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Speaker 3: No, you don't want a protagonist that do you write like,

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Speaker 3: that's not interesting.

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Speaker 2: Want a protagonist who I like.

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Speaker 1: I'm the same.

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Speaker 4: I noticed that with a lot of the books I'm reading,

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Speaker 4: I am more attached to that story. Like, for example,

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Speaker 4: I didn't like this book, but I know this is

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Speaker 4: one of the books that I will think about all

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Speaker 4: the time. And I think all of them have in

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Speaker 4: common is that I don't actually like the main character

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Speaker 4: in the book we talked about. I think Margo's got

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Speaker 4: money troubles. Yes, like, she's not a likable person, and

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Speaker 4: I think about that book all the time.

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Speaker 2: And she Characters are meant to do things that make

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Speaker 2: you yell at them, go why are you doing that?

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Speaker 1: Stop it?

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Speaker 2: Stop it, stop it. But there's a part of you

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Speaker 2: that also understands if a good writer can make you

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Speaker 2: understand the decisions even if you wouldn't do it. And

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Speaker 2: the reason that this character embarks on the drive from

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Speaker 2: LA to New York is because she's going, I'm a driver,

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Speaker 2: I can be a driver. And the point, of course

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Speaker 2: is that she absolutely isn't.

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Speaker 3: I get really frustrated with the likability question, and as

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Speaker 3: a writer, you get asked it all the time. And

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Speaker 3: the thing is is that we hang this on female

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Speaker 3: characters way more than any other. And if she is

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Speaker 3: doing anything that hints of not being a perfect mother

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Speaker 3: or wife, she will draw a shitload of criticism. There

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Speaker 3: is no exception to that, right, So a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who are upset about this book, they'll be like,

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Speaker 3: what a terrible thing to do. She abandoned her child,

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Speaker 3: you know, she putting her needs first over and over.

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Speaker 3: I just think this is fiction, Like, this is a

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Speaker 3: book you're supposed to do. It doesn't mean you have

259
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Speaker 3: to do it if you like her. It doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that you two have to leave your marriage and drive

261
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Speaker 3: across the country and have inappropriate affairs.

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Speaker 1: All kinds of people. Just relax into it, guys, Like

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Speaker 1: you can't.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's the beauty of this book, Like

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Speaker 4: it's written so so well that there's no part of

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Speaker 4: me that can relax when I'm reading it.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: Relaxes the wrong term, but what I guess what I

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Speaker 3: mean is relax with the judgment. Like, just enjoy watching

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Speaker 3: this weird person, this strange, unusual person doing really strange

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Speaker 3: unusual things without it constantly reflecting back at you like,

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Speaker 3: well I wouldn't do that, Well, I wouldn't do that.

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Speaker 3: A lot of criticism authors get is about that.

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Speaker 4: But isn't that the best part of fiction because it's

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Speaker 4: the one time we're allowed to judge because it's not

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Speaker 4: a real person.

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Speaker 1: But it's not about judging, like it's about trying to understand.

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Speaker 3: It's like the book is great, Like who cares whether

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Speaker 3: or not you would do that?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't understand

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Speaker 1: the impulse.

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Speaker 3: I like eating books about unusual things or really recognizable people,

283
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Speaker 3: but nearly everyone I know and like in my life

284
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Speaker 3: is a bit annoying to and does make selfish choices too,

285
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Speaker 3: and is not perfect in any way. And sometimes you

286
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Speaker 3: know message, I.

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Speaker 2: Spent most of this book yelling go home, home, idn't

288
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Speaker 2: want to go That was the tension, right, that was

289
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Speaker 2: the joy? Is what are you doing? How are you

290
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Speaker 2: spending your time?

291
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Speaker 1: I love it?

292
00:14:02,474 --> 00:14:08,114
Speaker 2: Why are you redecorating a motel that isn't even yours?

293
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Speaker 3: Like?

294
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Speaker 2: Why are you spending all your money there? So? Why

295
00:14:11,434 --> 00:14:14,914
Speaker 2: isn't the affair on? Why aren't you just having sex?

296
00:14:15,074 --> 00:14:15,834
Speaker 2: Like I just couldn't.

297
00:14:15,834 --> 00:14:16,874
Speaker 1: It's so wild.

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Speaker 3: And you know, actually about the Parker driver thing, I

299
00:14:19,154 --> 00:14:21,274
Speaker 3: think I must be a driver because one thing I

300
00:14:21,394 --> 00:14:24,434
Speaker 3: found very difficult to grapple with, and I always do

301
00:14:24,514 --> 00:14:26,754
Speaker 3: in movies and books that do this way, they stick

302
00:14:26,834 --> 00:14:29,754
Speaker 3: people in a place really early. Like I wanted momentum.

303
00:14:29,794 --> 00:14:32,114
Speaker 3: I wanted her to leave. I wanted her to the

304
00:14:32,154 --> 00:14:37,114
Speaker 3: Cot trip, she said. And the thing is is she

305
00:14:37,314 --> 00:14:39,874
Speaker 3: also thought she was going to start the trip. It's like,

306
00:14:40,114 --> 00:14:42,554
Speaker 3: this is the beauty of this weird character, right, is

307
00:14:42,594 --> 00:14:44,754
Speaker 3: that she says, I'm just going to stay in this

308
00:14:44,794 --> 00:14:47,354
Speaker 3: hotel for a day, you know, And then she's like,

309
00:14:47,674 --> 00:14:50,794
Speaker 3: I'm picking out curtains and then making it. And then

310
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Speaker 3: she's like, but it'll just be a couple of days

311
00:14:52,194 --> 00:14:54,154
Speaker 3: and then I'll go again. But then she's finding herself

312
00:14:54,234 --> 00:14:57,274
Speaker 3: doing all these weird things. We have to talk about, Davy.

313
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Speaker 3: We do, we do our character, our nameless character is

314
00:15:01,314 --> 00:15:03,394
Speaker 3: getting her car washed, I think, right, she said, the

315
00:15:03,394 --> 00:15:07,754
Speaker 3: servo in Australian parlance, yea, and a young attractive man

316
00:15:07,914 --> 00:15:11,954
Speaker 3: washes her windscreen. They make brief eye contacts.

317
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Speaker 2: Except I think she's looking and he can't.

318
00:15:13,594 --> 00:15:16,714
Speaker 4: She thinks he's looking at his own reflections.

319
00:15:16,914 --> 00:15:19,154
Speaker 3: She thinks that he can't see her. And there is

320
00:15:19,194 --> 00:15:20,954
Speaker 3: a twist in the book. I mean, everyone's read the books.

321
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Speaker 3: He gets this like quite far in when you find

322
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Speaker 3: out he knew exactly who she was and he recognized

323
00:15:25,274 --> 00:15:29,274
Speaker 3: her and it wasn't a chance encounter, but she thinks

324
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Speaker 3: that it is and she messes with that in her

325
00:15:31,234 --> 00:15:35,234
Speaker 3: mind and stuff. What did we think about Davy? Because

326
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Speaker 3: as much as we talk about yelling at the main character,

327
00:15:38,434 --> 00:15:42,434
Speaker 3: aren't we also yelling at Davy? Because Davy is married Jamie,

328
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Speaker 3: a young married man who meets a woman of influence

329
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Speaker 3: who he thinks can help his career basically at a

330
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Speaker 3: servo and then tortures her. Not literally, he doesn't torture her,

331
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Speaker 3: but like he knows she really wants to have sex

332
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Speaker 3: with him. He knows she is so obsessed with him.

333
00:15:59,274 --> 00:16:01,554
Speaker 3: The number one word that's used for this book is horny.

334
00:16:01,594 --> 00:16:03,874
Speaker 3: And there's no question her character is so horny all

335
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Speaker 3: the time, and he just keeps going, just give her

336
00:16:07,594 --> 00:16:09,434
Speaker 3: just enough for a long time. I mean, what do

337
00:16:09,474 --> 00:16:10,314
Speaker 3: we think about Davy?

338
00:16:10,754 --> 00:16:15,914
Speaker 2: I loved the blurring that July draws between and this

339
00:16:15,954 --> 00:16:18,594
Speaker 2: isn't just Davy This is every sexual love interest between

340
00:16:18,674 --> 00:16:22,994
Speaker 2: arousal and disgust, because you are horrified and embarrassed by

341
00:16:23,074 --> 00:16:27,554
Speaker 2: him and you cringe while at the same time being like,

342
00:16:27,714 --> 00:16:32,514
Speaker 2: there's something weirdly enticing. Don't get me started on the dancing,

343
00:16:33,074 --> 00:16:36,634
Speaker 2: because I had to imagine I went to this weird

344
00:16:37,234 --> 00:16:41,554
Speaker 2: Magic Mike Live event and there was this guy. Some

345
00:16:41,594 --> 00:16:43,314
Speaker 2: of them were hot because they were good at dancing,

346
00:16:43,354 --> 00:16:45,474
Speaker 2: so I kept imagining he was like Magic Mike, which

347
00:16:45,674 --> 00:16:48,034
Speaker 2: I don't know what he was meant to be doing.

348
00:16:47,874 --> 00:16:50,954
Speaker 3: But that was part of the genius of the Weird World, right,

349
00:16:51,234 --> 00:16:53,794
Speaker 3: is that she writes that scene where she's so obsessed

350
00:16:53,834 --> 00:16:55,954
Speaker 3: with this guy and she finally gets him in the

351
00:16:55,954 --> 00:16:57,834
Speaker 3: motel room and he says, I want to dance for

352
00:16:57,914 --> 00:16:58,794
Speaker 3: you and.

353
00:16:58,994 --> 00:17:00,594
Speaker 2: The collective I would die.

354
00:17:00,754 --> 00:17:03,114
Speaker 3: I would die, the collective, all of us, and our

355
00:17:03,234 --> 00:17:06,674
Speaker 3: artist's character is all like, oh, well, that's it, Like Mike,

356
00:17:07,154 --> 00:17:11,273
Speaker 3: there's alternative female boner is about you too, Yeah, that's over.

357
00:17:12,074 --> 00:17:14,634
Speaker 3: And so it starts and it is mortifying, but by

358
00:17:14,674 --> 00:17:18,354
Speaker 3: the end it's amazing, transcendent, and she's even more into

359
00:17:18,354 --> 00:17:21,834
Speaker 3: it than before. And that scene is extraordinary because you

360
00:17:21,914 --> 00:17:23,674
Speaker 3: feel every bit of it, like Oh.

361
00:17:23,554 --> 00:17:26,354
Speaker 1: No, stop come in my eyes. I could just keep

362
00:17:26,394 --> 00:17:29,874
Speaker 1: them laughing. Oh, hold on, what.

363
00:17:29,114 --> 00:17:30,674
Speaker 2: What did you think of Davy? M?

364
00:17:30,794 --> 00:17:33,553
Speaker 4: The minute we were introduced to Davy, I was like,

365
00:17:33,874 --> 00:17:39,194
Speaker 4: this boy is trouble. He's just he is a manipulator.

366
00:17:39,394 --> 00:17:42,274
Speaker 4: He is mean, and he just likes to have fun

367
00:17:42,354 --> 00:17:46,154
Speaker 4: with older women's emotions. Like that's literally what he is.

368
00:17:46,594 --> 00:17:49,434
Speaker 4: He firstly didn't have to wash your wind screen. He

369
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Speaker 4: did that on his own accord. So he like saw.

370
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Speaker 1: Her, he went, that's that famous lady bait went back.

371
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Speaker 4: To her hotel room, said stuff like I can't say

372
00:17:58,314 --> 00:18:02,273
Speaker 4: I love you, I'll help you with your tampon, we

373
00:18:02,354 --> 00:18:03,874
Speaker 4: need to get and not even like I want to

374
00:18:03,954 --> 00:18:06,194
Speaker 4: dance with you, but also like I want you to

375
00:18:06,234 --> 00:18:09,234
Speaker 4: watch me dance, and then he just started dancing.

376
00:18:09,354 --> 00:18:12,273
Speaker 2: Weren't they using each other though in the same way? Like,

377
00:18:12,474 --> 00:18:12,994
Speaker 2: wasn't it?

378
00:18:13,034 --> 00:18:15,354
Speaker 1: But what was she getting out of it all? Everything?

379
00:18:15,434 --> 00:18:19,073
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't think she got anything for her except

380
00:18:19,114 --> 00:18:19,954
Speaker 4: lifting some weights.

381
00:18:19,954 --> 00:18:24,994
Speaker 2: I think Oh he was some fantasy escapism. You're not

382
00:18:25,194 --> 00:18:30,033
Speaker 2: my domestic obligations, Like it was never about Davy, like

383
00:18:30,114 --> 00:18:33,553
Speaker 2: it could have been interchange days any other man.

384
00:18:33,634 --> 00:18:35,674
Speaker 4: But that's what the issue is, and then she landed

385
00:18:35,834 --> 00:18:37,994
Speaker 4: on like him like she could have.

386
00:18:37,994 --> 00:18:42,474
Speaker 3: Had the subject to all this, right, is the perimenopausal bit. Yeah,

387
00:18:42,514 --> 00:18:44,994
Speaker 3: so she's come across a graph that basically tells her

388
00:18:45,194 --> 00:18:48,794
Speaker 3: desire is about to die, that gra's scared. The perspective

389
00:18:48,794 --> 00:18:51,513
Speaker 3: from an old lady at the table, You are a

390
00:18:51,554 --> 00:18:54,434
Speaker 3: sexual person, whatever degree you always have. And it's clear

391
00:18:54,594 --> 00:18:56,793
Speaker 3: that this character has always been a pretty sexual person.

392
00:18:56,874 --> 00:18:59,034
Speaker 3: She's queer, she's had lots of different kinds of relationships.

393
00:18:59,074 --> 00:19:02,313
Speaker 3: Her and her husband have a particular kind of sexual relationship.

394
00:19:02,554 --> 00:19:05,114
Speaker 3: The book opens with her getting a letter through her

395
00:19:05,114 --> 00:19:07,474
Speaker 3: mailbox saying a man was taking a picture of the house.

396
00:19:08,794 --> 00:19:11,914
Speaker 3: So she just starts masturbating that idea. She's like, yeah, awesome.

397
00:19:12,194 --> 00:19:13,234
Speaker 3: Many of us would be like.

398
00:19:13,194 --> 00:19:14,114
Speaker 1: Oh, I call the cops.

399
00:19:14,194 --> 00:19:16,394
Speaker 2: I think she masturbates ten times.

400
00:19:16,434 --> 00:19:19,914
Speaker 3: She does, So you're that and then all these things

401
00:19:19,914 --> 00:19:23,434
Speaker 3: are happening to your body that are changing that thing,

402
00:19:23,554 --> 00:19:27,194
Speaker 3: like making desire really unattainable for you, making the kind

403
00:19:27,234 --> 00:19:29,674
Speaker 3: of sex that you can have really difficult for you.

404
00:19:30,314 --> 00:19:33,033
Speaker 3: Changing that if you're a person as she who's always

405
00:19:33,034 --> 00:19:37,874
Speaker 3: been attractive and desired, like suddenly you're not because you're

406
00:19:37,914 --> 00:19:40,354
Speaker 3: not the young thing anymore, Like it really messes with

407
00:19:40,394 --> 00:19:43,914
Speaker 3: your head. So she's chasing being able to hold onto

408
00:19:43,954 --> 00:19:45,994
Speaker 3: desire for the second half of her life, right, And

409
00:19:46,034 --> 00:19:50,514
Speaker 3: that's why it's flying in all these misplaced places, right,

410
00:19:50,594 --> 00:19:53,553
Speaker 3: so she I think that's part of what makes all

411
00:19:53,594 --> 00:19:56,274
Speaker 3: this so urgent. And I can't remember the last time

412
00:19:56,274 --> 00:20:00,554
Speaker 3: I read, well, maybe ever reading account of desire an

413
00:20:00,674 --> 00:20:05,474
Speaker 3: unrequited desire, and obsession and sexual obsession that are quite

414
00:20:05,674 --> 00:20:08,513
Speaker 3: so visceral and.

415
00:20:07,594 --> 00:20:10,154
Speaker 2: And the need to feel desired. And that's what the

416
00:20:10,234 --> 00:20:12,714
Speaker 2: Davy thing was about. And to me, I do you

417
00:20:12,714 --> 00:20:15,234
Speaker 2: think she had that need fulfilled? Well, by the end

418
00:20:15,234 --> 00:20:17,514
Speaker 2: of the book, she fulfills it in other ways, right.

419
00:20:17,594 --> 00:20:19,674
Speaker 2: And some people thought the ending and that sort of

420
00:20:19,674 --> 00:20:22,834
Speaker 2: denument was a bit too pat but I felt like

421
00:20:22,994 --> 00:20:26,434
Speaker 2: Davy was kind of fixated on her and she quite

422
00:20:26,914 --> 00:20:29,234
Speaker 2: liked that. The only thing I can compare it to

423
00:20:30,034 --> 00:20:33,034
Speaker 2: is a book about an adolescent sexual awakening. Yes, it's

424
00:20:33,114 --> 00:20:35,674
Speaker 2: just it's adolescence. It's like a new puberty. It's the

425
00:20:35,674 --> 00:20:39,914
Speaker 2: first time I've seen this life stage explored as a

426
00:20:39,994 --> 00:20:42,714
Speaker 2: moment of puberty, which was like in you know, call

427
00:20:42,714 --> 00:20:45,114
Speaker 2: me by your name, the perine or whatever, like where

428
00:20:45,114 --> 00:20:50,674
Speaker 2: it's something so revolting but also visceral and intimate and

429
00:20:50,834 --> 00:20:54,314
Speaker 2: weird that you have those moments because it's all hormones.

430
00:20:54,434 --> 00:20:56,234
Speaker 2: It's like you become your body again.

431
00:20:56,154 --> 00:20:59,314
Speaker 4: And everything that happens around it, like checking if he's

432
00:20:59,394 --> 00:21:02,514
Speaker 4: liked her video on Instagram, Like that was just It's

433
00:21:02,514 --> 00:21:04,874
Speaker 4: true now, like when you're a single woman dating, like

434
00:21:04,954 --> 00:21:07,034
Speaker 4: that's all you do. It's like you have a crash

435
00:21:07,274 --> 00:21:09,434
Speaker 4: someone and then you just become fixated and you're like,

436
00:21:09,714 --> 00:21:12,434
Speaker 4: how they like this photo? Like you're posting Instagram stories

437
00:21:12,474 --> 00:21:13,394
Speaker 4: for that person.

438
00:21:13,634 --> 00:21:15,874
Speaker 2: She's like a woman in her forties who's a fourteen

439
00:21:15,954 --> 00:21:20,394
Speaker 2: year old boy who is guided by her insatiable desire

440
00:21:20,474 --> 00:21:23,273
Speaker 2: for sex. And that was just so interesting to me.

441
00:21:23,594 --> 00:21:26,114
Speaker 3: That's true, and we kind of are beginning to understand

442
00:21:26,154 --> 00:21:29,114
Speaker 3: perimenopause and menopause as like a second adolescence in some

443
00:21:29,194 --> 00:21:31,314
Speaker 3: kind of ways, as in it's as big a hormone

444
00:21:31,354 --> 00:21:34,314
Speaker 3: or shift. But she's like an adolescent boy obsessed with sex,

445
00:21:34,314 --> 00:21:38,154
Speaker 3: but also with this like in her mind a deadline

446
00:21:38,514 --> 00:21:42,154
Speaker 3: like yeah, my clock is ticking and I will not

447
00:21:42,314 --> 00:21:45,033
Speaker 3: be as sexual being this is what she's thinking in

448
00:21:45,194 --> 00:21:48,354
Speaker 3: another few months or years. This part of my life

449
00:21:48,394 --> 00:21:51,034
Speaker 3: is going away. And of course, as the book moves

450
00:21:51,074 --> 00:21:53,674
Speaker 3: on and gets into that sort of menopausal stuff a

451
00:21:53,674 --> 00:21:56,674
Speaker 3: bit more, that's not true, but that's what it feels like,

452
00:21:56,714 --> 00:21:59,434
Speaker 3: and it can be true. So she's in their motel

453
00:21:59,474 --> 00:22:02,194
Speaker 3: room with Davy, and there's all of that madness going on.

454
00:22:02,554 --> 00:22:04,313
Speaker 3: And as much as I wanted her to leave the

455
00:22:04,354 --> 00:22:06,394
Speaker 3: motel room when she first got there, then I quite

456
00:22:06,474 --> 00:22:09,474
Speaker 3: liked living in that hotel room with her and her weirdness.

457
00:22:09,634 --> 00:22:14,754
Speaker 3: I kind of want one. And then she goes back

458
00:22:14,914 --> 00:22:17,034
Speaker 3: to her life because she has to. She has child

459
00:22:17,074 --> 00:22:18,914
Speaker 3: and husband and all the rest of it. But her

460
00:22:18,914 --> 00:22:22,034
Speaker 3: obsession with Davy at that point is still very live

461
00:22:22,154 --> 00:22:25,793
Speaker 3: and so, as you've referenced em, she does one of

462
00:22:25,834 --> 00:22:27,914
Speaker 3: the most relatable things that we can all imagine, which

463
00:22:27,954 --> 00:22:29,634
Speaker 3: is she's like, I'm going to make him want me.

464
00:22:29,674 --> 00:22:30,474
Speaker 1: I'm going to make.

465
00:22:30,354 --> 00:22:35,033
Speaker 3: Myself so irresistible to him by transforming myself physically.

466
00:22:35,714 --> 00:22:39,033
Speaker 1: You know. She starts on this CrossFit situation. Yeah, she

467
00:22:39,034 --> 00:22:40,194
Speaker 1: gets obsessed with how I bumm.

468
00:22:40,394 --> 00:22:43,074
Speaker 3: Yeah, she gets obsessed with it works and it's so

469
00:22:43,674 --> 00:22:48,474
Speaker 3: and then so she gets herself in this particular space.

470
00:22:48,994 --> 00:22:52,593
Speaker 3: She travels back to the small town and films herself

471
00:22:52,674 --> 00:22:56,714
Speaker 3: dancing outside the door of the motel, posts it online,

472
00:22:57,194 --> 00:22:58,834
Speaker 3: and this is where her husband goes.

473
00:23:02,514 --> 00:23:06,834
Speaker 2: Because every time anyone posts anything remotely sexy on social media,

474
00:23:06,834 --> 00:23:08,394
Speaker 2: we all know it is for one person. And my

475
00:23:08,474 --> 00:23:10,114
Speaker 2: question is who is that one person?

476
00:23:10,234 --> 00:23:14,794
Speaker 3: And the husband could tell that person was not him,

477
00:23:15,034 --> 00:23:15,954
Speaker 3: of course it wasn't him.

478
00:23:17,274 --> 00:23:19,834
Speaker 4: But it's that whole period of where she goes back

479
00:23:19,874 --> 00:23:23,434
Speaker 4: and then goes back to film the video is just

480
00:23:23,514 --> 00:23:27,273
Speaker 4: so telling because the best motivation to be the best

481
00:23:27,394 --> 00:23:30,194
Speaker 4: version of yourself is to do it for someone else first,

482
00:23:30,514 --> 00:23:32,793
Speaker 4: and then you automatically just start doing it for yourself.

483
00:23:32,794 --> 00:23:36,273
Speaker 4: And what I liked about that is how, even though

484
00:23:36,354 --> 00:23:39,154
Speaker 4: that whole situation doesn't work out the way she wanted to,

485
00:23:39,954 --> 00:23:41,954
Speaker 4: she kept going back to the wait, and for me,

486
00:23:42,074 --> 00:23:45,634
Speaker 4: that was so telling that she was actually enjoying what

487
00:23:45,674 --> 00:23:48,793
Speaker 4: she was doing for herself rather than just for Davy.

488
00:23:49,034 --> 00:23:51,073
Speaker 4: And that's the part that I was worried about. I

489
00:23:51,114 --> 00:23:54,033
Speaker 4: was worried that after Davy left that whole situation and

490
00:23:54,034 --> 00:23:57,194
Speaker 4: she's so sad, that she would just be sad and

491
00:23:57,354 --> 00:23:59,554
Speaker 4: go back to like just not enjoying her life.

492
00:24:00,194 --> 00:24:03,634
Speaker 3: Well, a more conventional novel The way this would have

493
00:24:03,674 --> 00:24:06,794
Speaker 3: played out is that she goes and has whatever kind

494
00:24:06,794 --> 00:24:09,994
Speaker 3: of spring she's having with you know, the sexual awakening

495
00:24:10,154 --> 00:24:12,353
Speaker 3: in the motel, and then she goes back to her

496
00:24:12,394 --> 00:24:15,114
Speaker 3: life and realizes that all along she just wanted to

497
00:24:15,114 --> 00:24:16,714
Speaker 3: be a wife, a mother, and that her husband's not

498
00:24:16,754 --> 00:24:18,754
Speaker 3: so bad. Like, if this is a more conventional novel,

499
00:24:18,754 --> 00:24:20,154
Speaker 3: that would be the arc, that would be the arc

500
00:24:20,194 --> 00:24:22,874
Speaker 3: in every movie and all those things. But Miranda July

501
00:24:23,674 --> 00:24:26,474
Speaker 3: was never going to do that. Yeah, so what happens

502
00:24:26,594 --> 00:24:31,554
Speaker 3: is a reimagined version of monogamy. Right, They agree her

503
00:24:31,594 --> 00:24:32,954
Speaker 3: and her husband to.

504
00:24:32,994 --> 00:24:36,954
Speaker 2: Take a night yes off being married every week.

505
00:24:36,794 --> 00:24:40,274
Speaker 3: So he gets Mondays and she gets Wednesdays, and before

506
00:24:40,314 --> 00:24:42,394
Speaker 3: you know it, they've both got girlfriends who they're seeing

507
00:24:42,434 --> 00:24:45,234
Speaker 3: on those nights only, and the obsession with Davy begins.

508
00:24:45,954 --> 00:24:48,273
Speaker 1: How does that happen? What do you mean? How does

509
00:24:48,354 --> 00:24:50,154
Speaker 1: that happen? Like? I'm literally single?

510
00:24:50,354 --> 00:24:50,594
Speaker 3: Yeah?

511
00:24:51,394 --> 00:24:53,073
Speaker 1: How quickly did they get that?

512
00:24:53,114 --> 00:24:53,474
Speaker 2: Always?

513
00:24:53,474 --> 00:24:53,634
Speaker 3: Really?

514
00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:54,794
Speaker 1: Day a week?

515
00:24:54,994 --> 00:24:57,474
Speaker 2: Yeah? It's like how we have a girlfriend? Married people

516
00:24:57,474 --> 00:24:59,874
Speaker 2: find a girlfriend or a boyfriend in five men.

517
00:24:59,994 --> 00:25:02,394
Speaker 1: You're juggling like three people, people.

518
00:25:02,194 --> 00:25:04,194
Speaker 2: With other families. I'm like, do you know how hard

519
00:25:04,234 --> 00:25:08,154
Speaker 2: I tried to get one in such bullshit after the break.

520
00:25:08,194 --> 00:25:10,593
Speaker 2: What I really want to talk about is the most

521
00:25:11,234 --> 00:25:13,674
Speaker 2: shocking scenes, the scenes that everyone goes have you got

522
00:25:13,714 --> 00:25:15,514
Speaker 2: to this bit yet? Have you got to this bit?

523
00:25:15,554 --> 00:25:18,274
Speaker 2: And I want to talk about whether they're gratuitous, whether

524
00:25:18,314 --> 00:25:21,154
Speaker 2: they're over the top, or whether they actually served a

525
00:25:21,154 --> 00:25:22,154
Speaker 2: really important purpose.

526
00:25:23,194 --> 00:25:27,674
Speaker 3: Okay, tell me the most shocking scene for you. I

527
00:25:27,674 --> 00:25:30,194
Speaker 3: think it's got to be tampon tamp Gate. It's got

528
00:25:30,234 --> 00:25:30,554
Speaker 3: to be the.

529
00:25:30,474 --> 00:25:32,434
Speaker 1: Time I have friends who stopped reading at tampon.

530
00:25:32,594 --> 00:25:33,954
Speaker 2: Why do you think they stopped reading?

531
00:25:34,314 --> 00:25:39,634
Speaker 1: So you know, fresh everybody's memory. Let's just refresh everybody's memories.

532
00:25:39,794 --> 00:25:41,714
Speaker 3: She and Davey are in broad in this sex not

533
00:25:41,794 --> 00:25:45,874
Speaker 3: sex obsession. Often in the afternoons, like he'll come over

534
00:25:46,714 --> 00:25:48,313
Speaker 3: and they're in bed, but they don't do things, they

535
00:25:48,314 --> 00:25:50,793
Speaker 3: can't do anything into it. They he won't actually have

536
00:25:50,914 --> 00:25:53,394
Speaker 3: sex with her, which is somehow weirdly so yeah.

537
00:25:53,234 --> 00:25:53,634
Speaker 1: So hot.

538
00:25:54,234 --> 00:25:56,994
Speaker 3: And then he gets up and goes to the bathroom

539
00:25:57,194 --> 00:25:59,794
Speaker 3: and she follows him in. The first thing that happens

540
00:25:59,914 --> 00:26:01,314
Speaker 3: is that she wants to hold his pee.

541
00:26:01,634 --> 00:26:02,194
Speaker 1: Do you remember that?

542
00:26:02,274 --> 00:26:06,273
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was not something and she didn't ask for

543
00:26:06,314 --> 00:26:11,274
Speaker 4: his consent. So he's midstream and she's cupping the peace and.

544
00:26:11,234 --> 00:26:13,273
Speaker 3: She's enjoying how it smells and all those things. And

545
00:26:13,354 --> 00:26:14,954
Speaker 3: she does have an interesting line in there, which is

546
00:26:14,954 --> 00:26:17,154
Speaker 3: like peplayers, kind of scary, but once you realize when

547
00:26:17,154 --> 00:26:18,754
Speaker 3: it hits your skin, you're not going to set on fire,

548
00:26:18,834 --> 00:26:20,474
Speaker 3: it's fine. You get overritten and you go I'm like,

549
00:26:20,514 --> 00:26:26,674
Speaker 3: ok I'll take your word it anyway. But that happens,

550
00:26:26,754 --> 00:26:30,594
Speaker 3: and then he wants to reciprocate, but she's not furious.

551
00:26:31,434 --> 00:26:33,954
Speaker 1: So she goes to the loo and.

552
00:26:34,514 --> 00:26:37,513
Speaker 2: I think she's kind of facing and then he pulls

553
00:26:37,514 --> 00:26:40,274
Speaker 2: out the tampon that's in. He's surprised that it's more

554
00:26:40,314 --> 00:26:42,754
Speaker 2: than just a little tug. These are all the details

555
00:26:42,874 --> 00:26:45,194
Speaker 2: you get, and she says, I think there's some blood

556
00:26:45,314 --> 00:26:47,754
Speaker 2: in my labbya and I'm like, okay, I've read the

557
00:26:47,834 --> 00:26:51,754
Speaker 2: imagery is fantastic. Takes that out replaces it, and there

558
00:26:51,834 --> 00:26:54,394
Speaker 2: is something about she's clearly telling us something.

559
00:26:54,514 --> 00:26:56,154
Speaker 1: It's the position that they're in.

560
00:26:56,314 --> 00:26:58,034
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, can you remind me of the position.

561
00:26:58,234 --> 00:27:02,234
Speaker 4: He's sitting on the toilet with the seat down, and

562
00:27:02,274 --> 00:27:05,593
Speaker 4: he's wearing his jeans and she's sitting on his lap,

563
00:27:06,394 --> 00:27:09,034
Speaker 4: and then he's like kind of like as if he's

564
00:27:09,154 --> 00:27:11,553
Speaker 4: putting the tampon in on himself, but it's her on

565
00:27:11,634 --> 00:27:15,594
Speaker 4: his lap. And then he like first puts one finger

566
00:27:15,674 --> 00:27:18,154
Speaker 4: in to feel where her vagina is, and I think

567
00:27:18,154 --> 00:27:20,074
Speaker 4: that's the most intimate they ever get. Yeah, and then

568
00:27:20,154 --> 00:27:23,114
Speaker 4: he slowly pushes the tampon in and then she gets

569
00:27:23,194 --> 00:27:24,914
Speaker 4: up and there's only a little bit of blood on

570
00:27:24,954 --> 00:27:27,474
Speaker 4: his jeans, so I think means successful.

571
00:27:28,554 --> 00:27:30,994
Speaker 2: It is so intimate.

572
00:27:31,194 --> 00:27:33,314
Speaker 1: I mean, I found it very intimate.

573
00:27:33,674 --> 00:27:37,834
Speaker 2: It's clearly telling us something about how intimacy is expressed

574
00:27:37,834 --> 00:27:42,074
Speaker 2: through ways other than traditionally sexual peters in vagina, sex

575
00:27:42,154 --> 00:27:46,634
Speaker 2: or whatever. Clearly, there is something very symbolic about the period,

576
00:27:46,914 --> 00:27:50,074
Speaker 2: because that's another bodily thing that her body is kind

577
00:27:50,114 --> 00:27:52,714
Speaker 2: of There were just moments in this book where.

578
00:27:52,514 --> 00:27:54,234
Speaker 1: I went, how did you even think of that?

579
00:27:54,554 --> 00:27:56,714
Speaker 2: Like, how did you come up with that as a

580
00:27:56,754 --> 00:27:58,874
Speaker 2: thing that people would do?

581
00:27:59,434 --> 00:28:01,594
Speaker 3: I think that And this is why she's so good.

582
00:28:01,754 --> 00:28:05,634
Speaker 3: Is all of this she describes just animal urge. Yes, yes,

583
00:28:05,674 --> 00:28:07,914
Speaker 3: she didn't know she wanted to follow into the bathroom

584
00:28:07,914 --> 00:28:09,674
Speaker 3: and hold his p in her hands until she was

585
00:28:09,714 --> 00:28:11,874
Speaker 3: following him into the bathroom and holding a bit like

586
00:28:12,314 --> 00:28:14,674
Speaker 3: and I found that really interesting. But I wasn't very

587
00:28:14,674 --> 00:28:16,594
Speaker 3: worried about the tampon. I'm like, sure, I could see

588
00:28:16,594 --> 00:28:19,273
Speaker 3: how that was quite intimate and exciting. All I was

589
00:28:19,314 --> 00:28:20,994
Speaker 3: doing through that whole period of the book that was

590
00:28:21,114 --> 00:28:23,794
Speaker 3: just being would you just have sex? I was desperate

591
00:28:23,834 --> 00:28:25,714
Speaker 3: for them to have sex, and I know that wasn't

592
00:28:25,754 --> 00:28:28,234
Speaker 3: the ethical request of them, because he was married to

593
00:28:28,274 --> 00:28:30,474
Speaker 3: the poor young woman who she had met and who

594
00:28:30,554 --> 00:28:33,833
Speaker 3: had she had paid the whole room to do up

595
00:28:33,874 --> 00:28:36,714
Speaker 3: the room and give her her mattress. She kind of knew, though, didn't.

596
00:28:36,754 --> 00:28:39,114
Speaker 3: She didn't she she did know, but anyway, surely I

597
00:28:39,114 --> 00:28:40,954
Speaker 3: don't think she knew. I think by the end she

598
00:28:41,114 --> 00:28:43,514
Speaker 3: kind of knows. It was like more of a financial

599
00:28:43,634 --> 00:28:46,154
Speaker 3: decision to get her a Davy where they needed to go.

600
00:28:46,394 --> 00:28:48,474
Speaker 2: The fact they didn't have sex. I mean, come on,

601
00:28:48,674 --> 00:28:51,554
Speaker 2: imagine if that was your husband who was like, I

602
00:28:51,594 --> 00:28:53,354
Speaker 2: didn't have sex with her, but I did remove and

603
00:28:53,434 --> 00:28:54,554
Speaker 2: insert her tampons.

604
00:28:55,434 --> 00:28:56,434
Speaker 1: You need to know what.

605
00:28:57,114 --> 00:28:59,474
Speaker 3: But what we do find out, and I think this

606
00:28:59,594 --> 00:29:02,794
Speaker 3: was more shocking to me, actually, is that she finds

607
00:29:02,834 --> 00:29:04,994
Speaker 3: out at some point that when Davy was younger, he

608
00:29:05,034 --> 00:29:08,634
Speaker 3: had a relationship with this older woman Order. She's called

609
00:29:08,674 --> 00:29:11,554
Speaker 3: and she's broadly described in the book because our artist

610
00:29:11,674 --> 00:29:14,594
Speaker 3: goes and buys something from Ordering, like a secondhand shop.

611
00:29:14,674 --> 00:29:18,154
Speaker 4: I think she goes to buy the quilt start off

612
00:29:18,194 --> 00:29:20,194
Speaker 4: a hole like I want to do up the stud.

613
00:29:20,034 --> 00:29:22,834
Speaker 1: That's right, and it's like from an antique kind of place.

614
00:29:23,074 --> 00:29:27,634
Speaker 3: And she and she does describe Order as being attractive

615
00:29:28,314 --> 00:29:30,594
Speaker 3: or like she never in fact describes it that way,

616
00:29:30,794 --> 00:29:33,754
Speaker 3: quite the opposite. But when she finds out that Order

617
00:29:33,914 --> 00:29:36,194
Speaker 3: has had sex with Davy, at least back in the day,

618
00:29:36,234 --> 00:29:39,554
Speaker 3: had had sex with Davies, she then gets Ordered to

619
00:29:39,594 --> 00:29:43,074
Speaker 3: come over and talk her through having sex with Davy

620
00:29:43,314 --> 00:29:45,514
Speaker 3: so that she can get off while that happens, and

621
00:29:45,554 --> 00:29:48,954
Speaker 3: then that leads to the two of them basically having

622
00:29:48,954 --> 00:29:52,834
Speaker 3: a sexual encounter that I genuinely did not see that coming,

623
00:29:52,874 --> 00:29:54,994
Speaker 3: and not because of the same sexness of it all,

624
00:29:55,034 --> 00:29:57,154
Speaker 3: because obviously the book is queer in lots of ways.

625
00:29:57,554 --> 00:30:01,154
Speaker 3: But that was almost more shocking to me because we're

626
00:30:01,194 --> 00:30:04,154
Speaker 3: not ever supposed to think that like old ladies in

627
00:30:04,154 --> 00:30:06,714
Speaker 3: inverted commons who work in antique shops and who aren't

628
00:30:06,954 --> 00:30:07,674
Speaker 3: like that.

629
00:30:07,954 --> 00:30:10,554
Speaker 1: Just that was so out of less to.

630
00:30:10,634 --> 00:30:14,034
Speaker 2: Me a great quote which was sometimes my hatred of

631
00:30:14,074 --> 00:30:17,754
Speaker 2: older women almost knocked me over. It came so abruptly. Yes,

632
00:30:17,994 --> 00:30:21,954
Speaker 2: And part of it is about her own internalized, discussed

633
00:30:22,114 --> 00:30:26,514
Speaker 2: horror fear at old ladies, because she can clearly see

634
00:30:26,554 --> 00:30:29,474
Speaker 2: that this is where I'm going. You are sexless, yep,

635
00:30:29,634 --> 00:30:32,914
Speaker 2: you are undesired. Like she's projecting all of this stuff

636
00:30:32,954 --> 00:30:35,394
Speaker 2: which is her own internalized but it's.

637
00:30:35,154 --> 00:30:38,754
Speaker 3: Real, like in our society, it's real. You can pretend

638
00:30:38,834 --> 00:30:41,314
Speaker 3: it isn't until it's happening to you, and then you're like, oh,

639
00:30:41,434 --> 00:30:44,154
Speaker 3: I'm beginning to look like an old And we realized

640
00:30:44,154 --> 00:30:46,154
Speaker 3: that the crone is the horror story.

641
00:30:46,234 --> 00:30:50,074
Speaker 2: Yes, And part of that whole relationship is that she's

642
00:30:50,154 --> 00:30:52,874
Speaker 2: sort of thinking, I've got the power in this dynamic.

643
00:30:52,994 --> 00:30:55,914
Speaker 2: I'm young, I'm hotter, She's going to be desperate to

644
00:30:55,954 --> 00:30:57,874
Speaker 2: be with me, which isn't the case. And she of

645
00:30:57,914 --> 00:31:01,754
Speaker 2: course discovers that this woman is still incredibly sexual at

646
00:31:01,794 --> 00:31:03,914
Speaker 2: that age and that there's like this, and.

647
00:31:03,834 --> 00:31:06,754
Speaker 4: She was even nervous of like exploring her body because

648
00:31:06,754 --> 00:31:09,074
Speaker 4: she didn't know what that body would look like. And

649
00:31:09,154 --> 00:31:10,354
Speaker 4: I think she explained that I was like it was

650
00:31:10,394 --> 00:31:13,034
Speaker 4: one giant clip or something the clip started and she

651
00:31:13,034 --> 00:31:13,954
Speaker 4: didn't know where it ended.

652
00:31:15,114 --> 00:31:16,474
Speaker 1: I just that whole bit.

653
00:31:16,514 --> 00:31:19,194
Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, Okay, maybe it's because of that

654
00:31:19,554 --> 00:31:21,674
Speaker 3: taboo about older women's bodies.

655
00:31:21,714 --> 00:31:24,234
Speaker 1: And I was very impressed by that whole scenario.

656
00:31:24,754 --> 00:31:27,354
Speaker 2: I thought that was very clever because clearly that was

657
00:31:27,394 --> 00:31:31,794
Speaker 2: the point, right, is that there was another stage coming

658
00:31:31,834 --> 00:31:35,274
Speaker 2: that wasn't death, and that all the assumptions that she'd

659
00:31:35,314 --> 00:31:39,194
Speaker 2: made were actually wrong, which I think was explored through

660
00:31:39,234 --> 00:31:42,914
Speaker 2: that queerness, because as the book goes along towards the end,

661
00:31:43,114 --> 00:31:44,994
Speaker 2: you know, she's obviously in a dark, dark place for

662
00:31:45,034 --> 00:31:45,354
Speaker 2: a while.

663
00:31:45,394 --> 00:31:48,514
Speaker 3: There, she's pining desperately for Davy. She's doing all these

664
00:31:48,554 --> 00:31:51,194
Speaker 3: crazy things. She goes and spray paints a chair, they're

665
00:31:51,194 --> 00:31:54,914
Speaker 3: getting him to call likes a lot. Her marriage is

666
00:31:54,954 --> 00:31:56,354
Speaker 3: breaking down and trying to work it out. But then

667
00:31:56,474 --> 00:32:00,394
Speaker 3: glimmers of light start coming in, which is almost surprising

668
00:32:00,474 --> 00:32:03,474
Speaker 3: in such an unconventional book. I loved the bit, but

669
00:32:03,514 --> 00:32:05,594
Speaker 3: of course I would where she texts and apparently she

670
00:32:05,714 --> 00:32:08,514
Speaker 3: Maranda July did this in real life. She texts all

671
00:32:08,514 --> 00:32:10,634
Speaker 3: the older women she knows and asks them to tell

672
00:32:10,674 --> 00:32:14,034
Speaker 3: her something good that happens once you stop bleeding, as

673
00:32:14,074 --> 00:32:17,714
Speaker 3: she puts it. Yeah, that was so moving to me

674
00:32:17,874 --> 00:32:20,554
Speaker 3: that part of the book, because it was just beginning

675
00:32:20,554 --> 00:32:23,594
Speaker 3: to open little slivers of like possibility, and some of

676
00:32:23,634 --> 00:32:27,874
Speaker 3: the answers were just extraordinary about things like my hormone

677
00:32:27,914 --> 00:32:31,274
Speaker 3: or migrain stopped. I suddenly stopped caring what people thought

678
00:32:31,274 --> 00:32:33,794
Speaker 3: about me, and those kind of more predictable things, but

679
00:32:33,874 --> 00:32:37,594
Speaker 3: some really shocking unusual stuff. I was just like, I

680
00:32:37,714 --> 00:32:39,634
Speaker 3: never read this in a book before. And even I

681
00:32:39,674 --> 00:32:41,594
Speaker 3: know that sounds weird now because we are living in

682
00:32:41,634 --> 00:32:43,794
Speaker 3: a very menopausi moment, but it's only been for a

683
00:32:43,834 --> 00:32:48,354
Speaker 3: couple of years, and even then it's still always couched

684
00:32:48,354 --> 00:32:52,794
Speaker 3: in this slightly uncool, sad way. And I just I

685
00:32:52,914 --> 00:32:55,674
Speaker 3: love what she did with this. She might have made

686
00:32:55,794 --> 00:32:59,754
Speaker 3: older women seem a bit wild and insane, but also

687
00:32:59,874 --> 00:33:02,554
Speaker 3: that there's a lot of interesting shit going on, and

688
00:33:02,594 --> 00:33:05,114
Speaker 3: I loved that. And then I also loved and I

689
00:33:05,154 --> 00:33:07,434
Speaker 3: know a lot of people she's built a community on this.

690
00:33:07,954 --> 00:33:11,234
Speaker 3: But where we land with the non monogamous, different version

691
00:33:11,274 --> 00:33:13,834
Speaker 3: of marriage that upset a lot of people.

692
00:33:14,114 --> 00:33:16,594
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did it, I don't know this. Yes, so

693
00:33:16,714 --> 00:33:20,354
Speaker 2: a lot of people they saw it as selfish, as

694
00:33:20,394 --> 00:33:22,914
Speaker 2: even the word privilege came up a lot because she

695
00:33:23,034 --> 00:33:25,834
Speaker 2: had a room of her own. Well, but that's the character,

696
00:33:25,874 --> 00:33:27,954
Speaker 2: that's the character in the book, that's kind of what works.

697
00:33:28,154 --> 00:33:28,474
Speaker 1: Yeah.

698
00:33:28,514 --> 00:33:30,914
Speaker 4: I felt really sad for her when her and a

699
00:33:31,034 --> 00:33:35,354
Speaker 4: husband were discussing what their new family would look like,

700
00:33:35,714 --> 00:33:38,754
Speaker 4: because I was very much fueled by her. Firstly, she

701
00:33:38,874 --> 00:33:40,874
Speaker 4: was the one who wanted to do like the role

702
00:33:40,874 --> 00:33:43,114
Speaker 4: playing stuff. She was the one who wanted the day off,

703
00:33:43,234 --> 00:33:46,114
Speaker 4: like it was always like her leading that. And then

704
00:33:46,194 --> 00:33:48,754
Speaker 4: they both get girlfriends. But then she goes through a

705
00:33:48,754 --> 00:33:52,154
Speaker 4: breakup and he just seemingly stays with that girlfriend. Yeah,

706
00:33:52,154 --> 00:33:54,554
Speaker 4: and then it ends up her being single in this

707
00:33:54,754 --> 00:33:57,994
Speaker 4: marriage and him having a girlfriend, And I was like, oh,

708
00:33:58,034 --> 00:34:01,474
Speaker 4: but she seemed okay with that, which also weirded me out, well, because.

709
00:34:01,234 --> 00:34:03,594
Speaker 1: She knows there'll be another girlfriend, do you know what

710
00:34:03,594 --> 00:34:05,114
Speaker 1: I mean? And there is. By the end of the book,

711
00:34:05,154 --> 00:34:07,234
Speaker 1: she is seeing another person in New York. Like, I

712
00:34:07,274 --> 00:34:08,194
Speaker 1: don't know how she does that.

713
00:34:08,314 --> 00:34:11,434
Speaker 3: So I think I feel like she had gone through

714
00:34:11,473 --> 00:34:15,033
Speaker 3: different versions of heartbreak throughout this book. That one really

715
00:34:15,114 --> 00:34:17,314
Speaker 3: smashed her around because she was surprised, but I think

716
00:34:17,354 --> 00:34:20,194
Speaker 3: she also climbed back out of it and knew there'd

717
00:34:20,194 --> 00:34:22,473
Speaker 3: be another story. I mean, I think that's one thing

718
00:34:23,274 --> 00:34:25,594
Speaker 3: that you do get with age, is like there aren't

719
00:34:25,594 --> 00:34:28,554
Speaker 3: really endings, you know, there's just pauses and then you

720
00:34:28,674 --> 00:34:30,913
Speaker 3: keep going. But she's built a community. In real life,

721
00:34:30,954 --> 00:34:33,314
Speaker 3: Maranda July is built a bit of newsletter community, and

722
00:34:33,514 --> 00:34:38,433
Speaker 3: unconventional relationships are a big cornerstone in that because she

723
00:34:38,514 --> 00:34:41,834
Speaker 3: said that with her marriage, she wanted them to be

724
00:34:41,914 --> 00:34:44,114
Speaker 3: able to explore themselves. So in the book, what they

725
00:34:44,154 --> 00:34:47,393
Speaker 3: decide to do when they're having those Mondays and Wednesdays

726
00:34:47,714 --> 00:34:49,954
Speaker 3: is to stop having sex with each other then and

727
00:34:50,034 --> 00:34:52,234
Speaker 3: remain friends and parents. And they could do it, and

728
00:34:52,274 --> 00:34:54,993
Speaker 3: they did it, and by all accounts, Miranda July says

729
00:34:55,154 --> 00:34:57,594
Speaker 3: something very similar. Not long after the book was finished,

730
00:34:57,634 --> 00:35:01,154
Speaker 3: she announced that her and her husband were doing something similar.

731
00:35:01,714 --> 00:35:04,473
Speaker 3: You've got to remember, these are very cool la people, right,

732
00:35:04,474 --> 00:35:06,754
Speaker 3: They're not like us, you know what I mean, They're

733
00:35:06,754 --> 00:35:09,754
Speaker 3: like very articol people who live in very articol world.

734
00:35:10,074 --> 00:35:12,154
Speaker 3: But she said the same thing, and she said, I'm

735
00:35:12,194 --> 00:35:14,154
Speaker 3: just happy this is another twist in our story.

736
00:35:14,514 --> 00:35:19,473
Speaker 2: I have one question that I suppose bothered me in retrospect,

737
00:35:19,514 --> 00:35:25,314
Speaker 2: which is this story of marriage and children being a

738
00:35:25,474 --> 00:35:27,794
Speaker 2: trap and in terms of a lot of people who

739
00:35:27,794 --> 00:35:32,314
Speaker 2: didn't finish and a lot of criticism, Miranda July doesn't

740
00:35:32,474 --> 00:35:35,554
Speaker 2: sell this period of your life to anyone.

741
00:35:35,154 --> 00:35:36,114
Speaker 1: Like am reading this?

742
00:35:36,274 --> 00:35:38,674
Speaker 2: Did this make you look forward to perimenopause?

743
00:35:39,034 --> 00:35:42,354
Speaker 4: I'm kind of different because of the workplace I'm in,

744
00:35:42,434 --> 00:35:45,554
Speaker 4: I know a lot about perimenopause, so it didn't like

745
00:35:45,634 --> 00:35:48,514
Speaker 4: shock me into that, but I did feel quite scared.

746
00:35:48,554 --> 00:35:51,873
Speaker 4: But also I just felt so sympathetic towards all the

747
00:35:51,994 --> 00:35:54,554
Speaker 4: women in my life who've already been through perimenopause and

748
00:35:54,554 --> 00:35:57,114
Speaker 4: they didn't have this book or didn't even go through

749
00:35:57,154 --> 00:35:59,394
Speaker 4: it in the last few years where everyone is starting

750
00:35:59,394 --> 00:36:02,473
Speaker 4: to talk about it more, because I remember, like, there'll

751
00:36:02,514 --> 00:36:05,634
Speaker 4: be times when my mom was going through perimenopause and

752
00:36:05,674 --> 00:36:07,953
Speaker 4: I'd immediately like we'd fight all the time because I'd

753
00:36:07,954 --> 00:36:09,994
Speaker 4: be like, this is crazy, like you're going crazy.

754
00:36:10,154 --> 00:36:10,993
Speaker 1: We'd be sleeping with.

755
00:36:10,914 --> 00:36:13,234
Speaker 4: The air conon in the middle of winter. Yeah, And

756
00:36:13,834 --> 00:36:16,234
Speaker 4: I think when I read this book, I just felt

757
00:36:16,434 --> 00:36:20,393
Speaker 4: so so bad because this made me realize that it

758
00:36:20,514 --> 00:36:22,794
Speaker 4: just feels like and exactly what the book says like

759
00:36:23,354 --> 00:36:25,354
Speaker 4: when you get your period for the first time, as

760
00:36:25,434 --> 00:36:28,114
Speaker 4: like a ten year old girl like your mom is

761
00:36:28,154 --> 00:36:30,714
Speaker 4: always there, and your mom's the one who's like telling

762
00:36:30,714 --> 00:36:32,674
Speaker 4: you what's going to happen and how it's gonna like

763
00:36:32,874 --> 00:36:34,714
Speaker 4: change you, and like you get all these like life

764
00:36:34,754 --> 00:36:36,953
Speaker 4: lessons from your mom, And I hate that I wasn't

765
00:36:36,954 --> 00:36:39,274
Speaker 4: able to do that with her when she was going

766
00:36:39,274 --> 00:36:41,433
Speaker 4: through it because you have no one. You have no one,

767
00:36:41,834 --> 00:36:43,314
Speaker 4: and you just have to like figure it out on

768
00:36:43,354 --> 00:36:45,194
Speaker 4: your own. And then people are calling.

769
00:36:44,954 --> 00:36:48,314
Speaker 1: You crazy and ugly and old and ugly and old.

770
00:36:48,674 --> 00:36:51,953
Speaker 2: That's very true. I just wondered if it's like this

771
00:36:52,114 --> 00:36:56,234
Speaker 2: narrative that this certain life stage is a trap and

772
00:36:56,274 --> 00:36:59,913
Speaker 2: that at forty five you look around and you go,

773
00:37:00,194 --> 00:37:02,473
Speaker 2: I don't want any of this. I don't like this.

774
00:37:02,594 --> 00:37:05,234
Speaker 2: I want to change it all. Is that something that

775
00:37:05,314 --> 00:37:08,754
Speaker 2: through your interviews on mid through your conversations Holly, is

776
00:37:08,794 --> 00:37:10,954
Speaker 2: a bit of a theme that people want to upend

777
00:37:10,994 --> 00:37:12,114
Speaker 2: everything massively.

778
00:37:12,154 --> 00:37:14,554
Speaker 3: I think you've got to separate. Like, so, this obviously

779
00:37:14,594 --> 00:37:17,154
Speaker 3: is a work of fiction and it's an extreme story. Yeah,

780
00:37:17,194 --> 00:37:20,874
Speaker 3: clearly this is not what most suburban, peri metopausal women

781
00:37:20,954 --> 00:37:23,274
Speaker 3: are doing with their lives, right, But I think one

782
00:37:23,314 --> 00:37:26,114
Speaker 3: of the reasons why it's resonated so hard is not

783
00:37:26,154 --> 00:37:29,154
Speaker 3: that everybody wishes they were doing that, like blowing up

784
00:37:29,194 --> 00:37:32,514
Speaker 3: their marriages and their lives and starting random affairs with

785
00:37:32,554 --> 00:37:34,874
Speaker 3: younger men or women, although if they want too, happy days.

786
00:37:35,594 --> 00:37:38,834
Speaker 3: But it recognizes the chaos of that time and the

787
00:37:38,954 --> 00:37:42,954
Speaker 3: questioning of self and something that comes up so many

788
00:37:43,034 --> 00:37:45,194
Speaker 3: times in all the interviews I've done for mid which

789
00:37:45,234 --> 00:37:48,074
Speaker 3: is with women in this period of life gen x women,

790
00:37:48,914 --> 00:37:50,913
Speaker 3: is this moment of is this?

791
00:37:50,994 --> 00:37:51,913
Speaker 1: Everything is this?

792
00:37:52,274 --> 00:37:55,194
Speaker 3: And let's be clear, that is something that we have

793
00:37:55,234 --> 00:37:57,434
Speaker 3: had in our culture known as a midlife crisis forever.

794
00:37:57,474 --> 00:38:00,634
Speaker 1: But it was for dudes. Yeah, like dudes had midlife crisis.

795
00:38:00,634 --> 00:38:02,873
Speaker 3: We've all watched the movies about that, we've all read

796
00:38:02,914 --> 00:38:04,913
Speaker 3: the books about that and all those things, and they

797
00:38:04,954 --> 00:38:07,834
Speaker 3: take off cycling andy exactly. The thing is is that

798
00:38:07,834 --> 00:38:10,594
Speaker 3: that's also happening to women. Now, well it was always,

799
00:38:10,634 --> 00:38:13,354
Speaker 3: but they weren't being able to vocalize it. It doesn't

800
00:38:13,354 --> 00:38:15,314
Speaker 3: mean it happens to everybody, and it doesn't mean that

801
00:38:15,394 --> 00:38:19,674
Speaker 3: everybody panics about their sexuality in this way is dissatisfied

802
00:38:19,714 --> 00:38:22,074
Speaker 3: with their lives. But it is a period of transition

803
00:38:22,194 --> 00:38:25,474
Speaker 3: and change, and so very often it does coincide. They

804
00:38:25,514 --> 00:38:28,474
Speaker 3: call it a midlife collision where something will happen in

805
00:38:28,514 --> 00:38:30,634
Speaker 3: your life, whether it is a divorce or whether you

806
00:38:30,634 --> 00:38:33,114
Speaker 3: lose your job, or whether this and you suddenly are like,

807
00:38:33,594 --> 00:38:36,114
Speaker 3: I'm changing things. You see so many women in midlife

808
00:38:36,114 --> 00:38:39,314
Speaker 3: go back to university, change their job, retrain as something,

809
00:38:39,434 --> 00:38:42,954
Speaker 3: leave their relationships, cut out some toxic friendships, start lifting weights.

810
00:38:43,234 --> 00:38:45,433
Speaker 3: Like it is a period in your life that if

811
00:38:45,434 --> 00:38:48,754
Speaker 3: you've followed a kind of conventional path of maybe if

812
00:38:48,754 --> 00:38:51,114
Speaker 3: you're going to have children, you've had your children, you're

813
00:38:51,114 --> 00:38:53,554
Speaker 3: probably still caring for them, but less than you know

814
00:38:53,594 --> 00:38:56,194
Speaker 3: in those early early days. If you're in a relationship,

815
00:38:56,194 --> 00:38:57,913
Speaker 3: it's probably been going for a long time, and then

816
00:38:57,954 --> 00:39:00,554
Speaker 3: that's either working or it isn't or whatever, and it's

817
00:39:00,594 --> 00:39:03,834
Speaker 3: a moment of real questioning. And I think that's what

818
00:39:03,954 --> 00:39:06,714
Speaker 3: this book. Let's remember this is always my thing, ab

819
00:39:07,194 --> 00:39:09,873
Speaker 3: fictional book that is just one example of something, and

820
00:39:09,994 --> 00:39:12,913
Speaker 3: isn't saying marriage is bad, it's not saying monogamy is bad,

821
00:39:13,154 --> 00:39:15,473
Speaker 3: it's not saying any of those things. It's just an

822
00:39:15,514 --> 00:39:19,393
Speaker 3: example of something. And I just think she nailed so

823
00:39:19,634 --> 00:39:22,114
Speaker 3: much of the chaos of that time, and I think

824
00:39:22,194 --> 00:39:25,114
Speaker 3: that's why women love this book so hard. Also, we

825
00:39:25,314 --> 00:39:27,834
Speaker 3: just love people speaking the unspoken. And she has, as

826
00:39:27,874 --> 00:39:30,354
Speaker 3: I said at the beginning, she has taken every taboo

827
00:39:30,714 --> 00:39:33,514
Speaker 3: and smashed it. We haven't even talked about the birth trauma.

828
00:39:33,674 --> 00:39:36,474
Speaker 3: And yeah, there's a big strong line through that about

829
00:39:36,514 --> 00:39:38,754
Speaker 3: this very traumatic thing that happened when she had her son.

830
00:39:39,354 --> 00:39:41,594
Speaker 3: That again, women are just supposed to like, well, that'll

831
00:39:41,634 --> 00:39:45,034
Speaker 3: turned out okay, you know, and that's not what it's like.

832
00:39:45,194 --> 00:39:47,994
Speaker 3: And women, we carry all these things in us for

833
00:39:48,034 --> 00:39:50,554
Speaker 3: so long and sometimes they just freaking blow out our

834
00:39:50,554 --> 00:39:51,754
Speaker 3: ears and we have to go and hide in a

835
00:39:51,794 --> 00:39:54,834
Speaker 3: motel rope out louders.

836
00:39:55,034 --> 00:39:56,913
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.

837
00:39:56,994 --> 00:39:59,314
Speaker 1: It's been really fun. It has been so much for

838
00:39:59,354 --> 00:39:59,794
Speaker 1: the next one.

839
00:39:59,954 --> 00:40:02,154
Speaker 3: I still you know, Actually you didn't answer one question

840
00:40:02,434 --> 00:40:04,674
Speaker 3: why didn't you like the book? Because you've said that

841
00:40:04,714 --> 00:40:06,393
Speaker 3: you respect the book, you like, you enjoyed it, you

842
00:40:06,394 --> 00:40:07,114
Speaker 3: couldn't put it down.

843
00:40:07,154 --> 00:40:08,274
Speaker 1: But why didn't you like it?

844
00:40:08,514 --> 00:40:11,914
Speaker 4: I think the scenes of the ones we discussed tampon,

845
00:40:12,674 --> 00:40:15,394
Speaker 4: the dog shitting scene too much for you, the dancing

846
00:40:15,794 --> 00:40:18,954
Speaker 4: too much, maybe one maybe one out at all that

847
00:40:19,034 --> 00:40:21,474
Speaker 4: pushed you too far, And it's.

848
00:40:21,674 --> 00:40:24,234
Speaker 1: Just got quite scared. I want to say too.

849
00:40:24,274 --> 00:40:28,794
Speaker 3: I do understand the criticism that's like insufferable naval gazing privilege,

850
00:40:28,834 --> 00:40:31,514
Speaker 3: Like sure, but then there are lots of books about people.

851
00:40:31,234 --> 00:40:33,474
Speaker 2: Like that, you know what I mean? And naval gazing

852
00:40:33,594 --> 00:40:36,154
Speaker 2: is the point of auto fiction, I think, and I

853
00:40:36,194 --> 00:40:37,993
Speaker 2: don't think any of us would have found a book

854
00:40:38,034 --> 00:40:39,954
Speaker 2: about a content woman particularly interesting.

855
00:40:40,154 --> 00:40:40,314
Speaker 3: Yeah.

856
00:40:40,994 --> 00:40:43,154
Speaker 4: The next book that we're going to do for our

857
00:40:43,154 --> 00:40:46,594
Speaker 4: book club in our episode is an Emily Henry book

858
00:40:46,914 --> 00:40:50,514
Speaker 4: that has every girl in my generation in a chokehold.

859
00:40:50,914 --> 00:40:52,954
Speaker 4: It's called Great, Big, Beautiful Life.

860
00:40:52,994 --> 00:40:54,234
Speaker 1: Have you guys read Emily Henry?

861
00:40:54,354 --> 00:40:56,154
Speaker 2: I haven't, and I've been meaning too. So this is

862
00:40:56,154 --> 00:40:57,314
Speaker 2: to kick up the bar my knee.

863
00:40:57,354 --> 00:40:59,154
Speaker 1: Yeah, we need it. They're all getting made into movies,

864
00:40:59,194 --> 00:40:59,953
Speaker 1: so we have to go.

865
00:41:00,074 --> 00:41:02,393
Speaker 4: But I read a few. This book, I feel like,

866
00:41:02,554 --> 00:41:03,794
Speaker 4: is what everyone's reading this.

867
00:41:03,834 --> 00:41:06,674
Speaker 2: Year, and out louders, you have one month to read it,

868
00:41:06,714 --> 00:41:09,994
Speaker 2: because we're going to drop back in your feed in

869
00:41:10,074 --> 00:41:12,314
Speaker 2: a month and we are going to unpack it, hold

870
00:41:12,314 --> 00:41:15,874
Speaker 2: hands together and have our second installment of book club.

871
00:41:16,154 --> 00:41:24,314
Speaker 4: Bye bye.

872
00:41:25,154 --> 00:41:28,154
Speaker 2: Mar Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on

873
00:41:28,194 --> 00:41:30,074
Speaker 2: which we have recorded this podcast.