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Speaker 1: It's June twenty sixteen in a nondescript brown house in Perth,

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Speaker 1: and Jemma Lily and Trudy Lennin have been living together

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Speaker 1: for just three weeks. From the outside, the twenty five

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Speaker 1: year old British immigrant and forty four year old mum

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Speaker 1: of two look normal, ordinary, average, But behind closed doors,

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Speaker 1: their conversations are full of homicidal fantasies. And now they

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Speaker 1: have a plan and they're ready to kill. I feel

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Speaker 1: as though I cannot rest until the blood or flesh

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Speaker 1: of a screaming victim is gushing out and pulling on

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Speaker 1: the floor. Rights Jemma to her housemate. It is definitely time,

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Speaker 1: replies Trudy. I am ready. You are ready for anything

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Speaker 1: left to do? Find a victim. I'm Claire Murphy. When

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Speaker 1: you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the

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Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who

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Speaker 1: know the most about them. Aaron Page Sweetman was only

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Speaker 1: eighteen when he was brutally murdered by Gemma Lily and

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Speaker 1: Trudy Lenin. Trudy had known Arn for eight years. He'd

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Speaker 1: been friends with her fourteen year old son. The women

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Speaker 1: decided he was easy enough to lure. They told him

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Speaker 1: they needed help with computer software and invited him over.

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Speaker 1: He was attacked as soon as he entered their home,

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Speaker 1: his body buried in their backyard. Their crime was described

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Speaker 1: by the judge who sentenced them as morally repugnant, a

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Speaker 1: kill carried out purely for the women's pleasure. Usually people

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Speaker 1: kill for reasons of revenge, jealousy, monetary gain, sexual gratification,

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Speaker 1: to cure for fun is rare. Female killers are also rare.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, everything about this story feels usual and

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Speaker 1: uniquely horrible. Former legal affairs editor at The West Australian

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Speaker 1: and journalist Tim Clark has covered this case in detail

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Speaker 1: for multiple publications, providing updates as it unfolded. We invited

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Speaker 1: him onto the podcast to unpack it. Tim, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us on True Crime Conversations. How

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Speaker 1: did you find working on this case because it is

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Speaker 1: quite a bizarre one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, This was a very strange case, a very

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Speaker 2: disturbing case, and one that really captured the imagination, not

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Speaker 2: because of anything other than it was really horrible. It

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Speaker 2: was a young victim, vulnerable, literally snatched off the street,

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Speaker 2: and then two women it was discovered we're behind it.

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Speaker 2: So those elements combined to make it a really shocking

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Speaker 2: case even before we knew the details behind it. They

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Speaker 2: all came out during the trial of these two women,

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Speaker 2: and once they started to be revealed by prosecutors, it

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Speaker 2: was one of those cases that will always stick with

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Speaker 2: me and I think we'll probably stick with your listeners

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Speaker 2: and viewers once we've gone through it.

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Speaker 1: We'll gie you the step us through the court case

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Speaker 1: in a bit. But you mentioned finding out some of

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Speaker 1: the background on the women who were involved in this crime,

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Speaker 1: and one of those in particular, Gemma. Can we talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about her childhood. Was there anything within

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Speaker 1: her upbringing that might have given us some signs about

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Speaker 1: where life would eventually take her?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is Jemma Lily. She was sixteen when

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Speaker 2: she moved to Australia from the UK, but subsequent to

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Speaker 2: the murder that she was convicted of, it emerged that

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Speaker 2: she had been very detached as a as a even

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Speaker 2: as a young child, awkward, lonely, and had interests that

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Speaker 2: worried her close family and close friends. She she had

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Speaker 2: always had an interest in the darker side of culture.

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Speaker 2: She'd grown up in a nuclear family in the UK,

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Speaker 2: but once she got to those later teenage years, the

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Speaker 2: issues around her personality and her very close family struggling

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Speaker 2: to cope with those precipitated her moving to Australia to

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Speaker 2: live with other family members. Originally and then and then

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Speaker 2: she moved on. She got a job, she made some

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Speaker 2: friends here, but her whole persona, even from a young age,

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Speaker 2: appeared to revolve around horror, I'll put it that way,

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Speaker 2: the macabre horror fiction, horror culture. She once said in

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Speaker 2: some of her writings that the character Freddy Krueger, who

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Speaker 2: I'm sure all your listeners will remember from the Nightmare

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Speaker 2: on Elm Street Movies, was her a father figure. She

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Speaker 2: felt like he was a father figure to her growing up.

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Speaker 2: She was obsessed with that character later in life, and

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Speaker 2: as these interests hardened within her, she then took to

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Speaker 2: writing herself. She fancied herself as a as a writer

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Speaker 2: and novelist, and she started commit to commit these fantasies.

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Speaker 2: She was having this, this this obsession with darkness and

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Speaker 2: torture and weapons and and and horror fiction. She started

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Speaker 2: to commit those thoughts to the page, and they started

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Speaker 2: out as just sort of notes in a diary, almost scribblings.

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Speaker 2: But then she concocted this world and this character that

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Speaker 2: she placed basically at the center of her identity. So

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Speaker 2: there was some swapping of those or mixing and melding

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Speaker 2: of those. This character in her head was called SOS,

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Speaker 2: taken from son of Sam, who was a notorious serial

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Speaker 2: killer in America in the late twentieth century, and she

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Speaker 2: took on that persona herself first by writing about it

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Speaker 2: as the central theme of this book that she was writing,

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Speaker 2: called play Zone. But then it blared over, if you

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Speaker 2: pardon the term, it melded over into her. So she

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Speaker 2: had a tattoo of several tattoos depicting this SOS character

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Speaker 2: on her body. Even the motorbike that she rode in

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Speaker 2: Western Australia in Perth, the registration number was one SOS one.

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Speaker 2: So she obviously as she got thrill out of the

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Speaker 2: teens and into her early twenties, saw herself as this

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Speaker 2: SOS character. And this SOS character was a serial killer

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Speaker 2: who would torture and murder victims himself, but then more

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Speaker 2: centrally to the story that emerges in real life, he

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Speaker 2: had followers that would also do his bidding do his

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Speaker 2: killing for him. She referred to those as maggots in

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Speaker 2: the book, and so this became her identity, This became

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Speaker 2: her central identity. So she had tattoos. And then, as

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Speaker 2: we'll go on to explain, the house that she ended

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Speaker 2: up living in and ended up killing in was a

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Speaker 2: shrine to this type of material, including assigned photograph by

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Speaker 2: the actor that played Freddy Krueger, a Chuckie doll, which

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Speaker 2: was a central character in another eighties horror film, and obviously,

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Speaker 2: most disturbingly, her obsession with torture methods which were found

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Speaker 2: written and detailed in the house, and also a weapons cash,

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Speaker 2: particularly of knives that anyone who would have seen would

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Speaker 2: have been shocked and disturbed by. So she was an

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Speaker 2: individual that almost seemed and I know it seems hard

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Speaker 2: to say, but almost seemed destined to kill because that's

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Speaker 2: what she wanted to do, that's what she'd fantasized doing,

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Speaker 2: that's what she'd written about doing, and ultimately that's what

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Speaker 2: she ended up doing.

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Speaker 1: But tim people write horror stories, people watch horror movies,

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Speaker 1: people make horror movies, recreate awful torturous things on screens

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Speaker 1: for us to call entertainment and enjoy. What is it

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Speaker 1: about Jemma's fascination with this genre that makes it become

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Speaker 1: a reality for her? Was there ever a mention of

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Speaker 1: her having a mental health issue? Was there ever times

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Speaker 1: when that behavior did start to stray over into the

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Speaker 1: real world before the Murder of Our was there behaviors

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Speaker 1: that were concerning in the real world that people worried

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Speaker 1: that maybe this horror genre and this fantasy fiction world

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Speaker 1: she created was bleeding into her real life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there certainly were worries amongst a very close

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Speaker 2: family in the UK. I spoke anonymously, I might add

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Speaker 2: to one of those people who contacted me during and

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Speaker 2: after the trial via email to say, look, this were

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Speaker 2: we warned people, or we tried to warn people in

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Speaker 2: the UK that this wasn't just a phase. We didn't

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Speaker 2: think this was just that your normal teenage sort of

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Speaker 2: hyper fixation on whatever it might have been. We thought

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Speaker 2: that this went deeper with her, And then when she

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Speaker 2: got to Western Australia, which was I think it's fair

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Speaker 2: to say, was designed to be a circuit breaker for her,

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Speaker 2: try and get her out of her own head or

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Speaker 2: the environment that she'd grown up in. Or the friends

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Speaker 2: that she had, or the family situation that she was in,

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Speaker 2: and try and give us some thing else. When she

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Speaker 2: got here, I mean she appeared, I mean, from the

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Speaker 2: outside you would say relatively normal. She she had friends,

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Speaker 2: she had a job stacking shells at a local supermarket,

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Speaker 2: and at one point she even did get married, but

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Speaker 2: that was for convenience because she had visa issues and

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Speaker 2: would have had to go back to the UK. So

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Speaker 2: she befriended a man, a gay man, and they got married.

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Speaker 2: But even then the marriage ceremony which her family did attend,

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Speaker 2: come to some family did come from the UK to attend.

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Speaker 2: It was odd, it was it was it was themed,

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Speaker 2: there was there was Freddy Krueger memorabilia at that wedding.

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Speaker 2: So as you say, yeah, I'm sure ninety five percent

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Speaker 2: of the population of at some point, you know, ingested

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Speaker 2: a Stephen King novel or watched a horror movie or

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Speaker 2: you know, listen to death metal or whatever it might be,

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Speaker 2: and you know, and not become us. But with her,

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Speaker 2: with Jemma, from very early on, people were saying, this

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Speaker 2: is this is this is becoming her identity, this is

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Speaker 2: how she feels like she exists in the world. This

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Speaker 2: is what makes her who she is, and there's obviously

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Speaker 2: a psychology behind that, and the psychology was explored somewhat

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Speaker 2: during the trial, but more during the sentencing in terms

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Speaker 2: of the potentiality of her having some psychopathic traits there.

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Speaker 2: It was eventually agreed that there was some psychopathy there

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Speaker 2: because the elements of her that took on that SOS

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Speaker 2: character then obviously drilled so far deep into her that

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Speaker 2: she she basically carried through with it, and then after

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Speaker 2: she'd done it, was referring to herself as SOS and

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Speaker 2: was having her partner in crime. Truly, Lennon referred to

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Speaker 2: her as SOS as well. So the traits that eventually

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Speaker 2: exploded in Western Australia had been there for a long

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Speaker 2: time and people had been worried about them for a

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Speaker 2: long time.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned her marriage, the marriage of convenience. The man

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Speaker 1: that she married, she ended up giving him a serial

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Speaker 1: killer nickname.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, strangely so, this was a chap that she'd

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Speaker 2: met through friends, and she nick named him Gasey, as

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Speaker 2: in John Wayne Gacy, who's another notorious serial killer from

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Speaker 2: the US.

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Speaker 1: He's the clown killer, right.

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Speaker 2: The clown killer. Correct, yes, not only was Freddy Krueger

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Speaker 2: her father figure, but these these serial killers, son of

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Speaker 2: Sam Gaysey and others, she not only had an interest in,

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Speaker 2: but she obsessed over. I think it's probably to say

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Speaker 2: she wrote about them, She listed them, she diarized them,

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Speaker 2: she liked, did sort of books about them, and once

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Speaker 2: she got to Western Australia and had really sort of

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Speaker 2: doubled down into her writing, she actually wrote semi serious,

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Speaker 2: researched articles about serial killers and had them published in

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Speaker 2: various sort of publications online magazines that centered around this stuff,

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Speaker 2: including one about the Port Arthur massacre and the individual

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Speaker 2: that carried out that that horrific crime. So she just

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Speaker 2: constantly surrounded herself with this stuff. But you know, to

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Speaker 2: the point, as you say, where she gave the man

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Speaker 2: that she married and was obviously friends with but not

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Speaker 2: sexually involved with because he wasn't that way inclined, and

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Speaker 2: she described actually she described herself as asexual as well.

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Speaker 2: She gave him the nickname of one of these killers

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Speaker 2: because she thought a it was funny and b that

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Speaker 2: he had unphysical traits that reminded of of that particular

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Speaker 2: that particular murder.

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Speaker 1: I am Timmy spoke to some of Jemma's work colleagues

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Speaker 1: who worked with her back in the day. When you

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Speaker 1: work with people closely, especially you know, when you're stacking

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Speaker 1: shelves at you know, the supermarket, you get to know

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Speaker 1: each other pretty well. You're working sometimes, you know, by

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Speaker 1: sales at night in places. Did they see anything that

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Speaker 1: made them think that she was capable of doing what

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Speaker 1: she eventually did?

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Speaker 2: Yees, So we heard. We heard from them during doing

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Speaker 2: during the trial, and then subsequently I did reach out

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Speaker 2: to a couple of them after the trial just to

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Speaker 2: just to try and get a fuller picture, even though

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Speaker 2: we had a lot of material already. And they struck

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Speaker 2: me as they I mean, they were just normal West Australians,

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Speaker 2: right they were, and they were just living their lives,

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Speaker 2: going to work and you know, having relationships with your

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Speaker 2: colleagues as you as you normally would. And hindsight's a

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Speaker 2: wonderful thing, right. I got the impression that before this

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Speaker 2: this happened, they thought she was They thought she was strange,

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Speaker 2: they thought she was a little bit off kilter. But

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Speaker 2: I got the impression I don't think they thought this

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Speaker 2: woman is destined to kill someone, let alone in the

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Speaker 2: circumstances that she went on to do. But when it

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Speaker 2: comes to a trial, so you and then you hear

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Speaker 2: about the circumstances, and it comes to a trial and

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Speaker 2: you're proofed, and the prosecutors ask you certain questions, right,

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Speaker 2: you then get the impression over they always knew, so

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Speaker 2: why didn't they speak up? But I got the impression that,

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Speaker 2: as I say, they they they she was. She was.

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Speaker 2: She was weird. She was she you know, she was

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Speaker 2: she was always talking about this this darkness, this horror material.

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Speaker 2: She had the tattoos, she had the hair, the piercings,

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Speaker 2: she wore dark clothing. But as you said before, like

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Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of young men and women do that

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Speaker 2: and don't go on to do what Gemma Lily did.

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Speaker 2: So impression I got was they thought she was strange,

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Speaker 2: but they never thought they had a killer in their

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Speaker 2: break room until it broke and then they realized, gosh,

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Speaker 2: we were seeing next to this person, working next to

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Speaker 2: this person, you know, having conversations with this person, not

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Speaker 2: realizing that all the time, you know, she was planning

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Speaker 2: or certainly fantasizing about eventually committing one of the crimes.

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Speaker 2: That really shook Western Australia to its core. This in

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Speaker 2: the last twenty years at.

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Speaker 1: The time of Aaron's murder. In the lead up to that,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a time where you know, Instagram was

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Speaker 1: brand new in twenty sixteen. Social media wasn't really a

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Speaker 1: huge part of our lives yet, but you know, the

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Speaker 1: Internet still existed and there were opportunities to join, you know,

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Speaker 1: forums and chat rooms and things. Was she involved in

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Speaker 1: any communities online that could have given us an idea

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Speaker 1: of where her motivations.

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Speaker 2: So this were coming not overly, but from quite early,

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Speaker 2: from around about twenty eleven. From memory, she was spooking

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Speaker 2: this this book and this character that that she was,

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Speaker 2: that she was in the midst of creating, as I say,

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Speaker 2: the book. The book was called play Zone. It was

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Speaker 2: written under a pseudonym, and she was very proud of it.

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Speaker 2: She was very she was very proud of it. She

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Speaker 2: would tell people about it, she would give people hard

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Speaker 2: copies of it, anyone who showed any interest. And then

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Speaker 2: on a she created a Facebook page around the book

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Speaker 2: for you know, ostensibly for marketing purposes, and she would

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Speaker 2: post about it. And then slowly, as was we dug

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Speaker 2: into her social media profile a little more. There was

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Speaker 2: some very you know, sort of bizarre and disturbing photographs

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Speaker 2: that she'd shed, that she'd fashioned and taken and obviously

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Speaker 2: stylized herself that became sort of the book art. There

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Speaker 2: was one that depicted a young man on his knees

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Speaker 2: in a sort of dexter like room that was covered

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Speaker 2: in top all ins and things with with this with

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Speaker 2: this metal mask, this mask, it turned out, that had

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Speaker 2: been made for Jemma by her father as a sort

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Speaker 2: of strange sort of gift or you know, acknowledgment that

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, okay, you're you're into this stuff, so

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe I could you know, share this interest somehow.

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Speaker 2: But she went on to use this mask in the

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Speaker 2: in the in the fanner of of of this book,

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Speaker 2: and those pictures were there, you know, if you've chosen

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Speaker 2: to see them, or if you were friends with her

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Speaker 2: on Facebook. She didn't have many, but she did have

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Speaker 2: some that were there there to see. So again, even

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Speaker 2: her online personality was enmeshed with this, with this so character,

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Speaker 2: with her pride and obsession with the book and the

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Speaker 2: central theme of her life basically, which was killing someone,

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Speaker 2: how to kill someone, How to torture someone and how

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Speaker 2: to do that, what weapons to do that with. So

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Speaker 2: that was again, once we started digging into this story

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Speaker 2: in this personality a little deeper, that was illuminative as well.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Claire Murphy,

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with former journalist Tim Clark about the murder

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Speaker 1: of Aaron Page. Sweetmen. Up next, When did Jemma Lily

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Speaker 1: develop this strong urge to kill before the age of

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Speaker 1: twenty five? And how did Trudy Lennin come into the picture?

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Speaker 1: Do we know when things change from being this obsession

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Speaker 1: with horror and creating this book in this character to

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Speaker 1: giving herself that goal that's mentioned throughout the trial of

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Speaker 1: wanting to kill someone before she turns twenty five? Like,

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Speaker 1: do we have an understanding of when that became a

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Speaker 1: thing for her?

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Speaker 2: Well, personally, having covered the trial, followed the story and

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Speaker 2: written about it after, I really feel that it was

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Speaker 2: when she met Truly Lenin, who was her became her

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Speaker 2: best friend, became her muse, became her confidant, and ultimately

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Speaker 2: became her accompanies. Truly Lenin was older, much older, in

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Speaker 2: her forties, divorced, not really enjoying her life. She had

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Speaker 2: been a participant in the BDSM scene in Perth for

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Speaker 2: some years as a submissive. So she was someone who

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Speaker 2: sexually enjoyed being dominated, and through Truly's son, if I

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Speaker 2: remember correctly, they met. So you've got these two personalities, right,

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Speaker 2: You've got You've got Gemma, who is even though she's

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Speaker 2: lonely and she's weird, and she's on the fringes, let's

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Speaker 2: let's call it, she was also articulate, confident, attractive, and

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Speaker 2: was had had a had a belief in herself, even

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Speaker 2: though that was a very sick belief that she was

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Speaker 2: she was she was going to do this thing right.

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Speaker 2: But I believe that she felt that she couldn't do

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Speaker 2: it alone. And that jump, if you jump back to

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Speaker 2: the central or one of the central themes of her

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Speaker 2: book was that she needed someone she s s had

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Speaker 2: these followers, these these you know, these sycophants that would

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Speaker 2: do his bidding for him and do his killing for

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Speaker 2: him and and honored him and worshiped him. And in

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Speaker 2: Truly Lenin, that's what Jemma found. She found someone that

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Speaker 2: was willing to be dominated because she knew she'd be

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Speaker 2: dominated sexually previously and that was part of her psychology,

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Speaker 2: so she could be and was willing to be dominated.

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Speaker 2: And as we went through the trial and the text

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Speaker 2: messages between these two women were revealed, that was that

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Speaker 2: was very much their relationship dom sub and truly Lenin

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Speaker 2: in finding Jemma, Lily found someone that she could talk to,

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Speaker 2: that she could hang out with, that she could feel

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Speaker 2: important with, that she could converse with. But it wasn't

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Speaker 2: a male right because truly Lenin's persona and life up

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Speaker 2: until that point has been had been a literal submissive

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Speaker 2: and not a very happy one in a series of

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Speaker 2: heterosexual relationships. Now that there was a there was a

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Speaker 2: subtext that Gemma and Truly were love that was never

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Speaker 2: really explored because it didn't really have to be in

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Speaker 2: terms of the crime that they committed, because the relationship,

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Speaker 2: their relationship, in terms of the physical acts that they

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Speaker 2: ended up doing together and planning together and then discussing

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Speaker 2: together afterwards, was it was clear that they were as

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Speaker 2: close as to people could be, even if they were

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Speaker 2: sharing a bed. So I I believe, having having gone

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Speaker 2: through the trial, that that that that the moment that

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Speaker 2: Gemma found truly and realized that truly will do basically

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Speaker 2: anything I ask of her, within reason and without reason.

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Speaker 2: As it came to be. That was when it went

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Speaker 2: from a fantasy to a rep from from fantasy to

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Speaker 2: reality for her, because she had a maggot, right, she

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Speaker 2: had she she dreamed up this this scenario in her

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Speaker 2: head and then suddenly it was it was playing out

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Speaker 2: in real life. She had someone living with her, you know,

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Speaker 2: hanging out with her, doing her bidding, really like read

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Speaker 2: really reading her book, giving her notes, giving her suggestions,

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Speaker 2: and all the while it was building this confidence in

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Speaker 2: the lead that right, I'm ready to do this now.

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Speaker 2: She'd set herself that timeline. I think that was a

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Speaker 2: bit of drumatis persona. I think that was just her

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Speaker 2: building herself up. But whatever it was, it came to be,

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Speaker 2: and it came to be because they crossed paths and

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Speaker 2: then they emboldened each other to do it. And really tragically,

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Speaker 2: it was through truly Lenin and her son that they

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Speaker 2: came into contact with Aaron, who was then for one

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Speaker 2: of the better I mean, he was targeted. He was

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Speaker 2: targeted because of who he was, and that that really

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Speaker 2: is a piece of his story that is desperately, desperately sad.

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Speaker 1: Well, speak about Aaron in a moment. But you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the text messages between Trudy and Gemma, and there were

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Speaker 1: quite a few of them, and they were quite central

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Speaker 1: to the court case. Can you talk us through what

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Speaker 1: these women were saying to each other?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so again it revolved around this SOS character, right,

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Speaker 2: So that's that's how Lenin was addressing Lily Gemma in

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Speaker 2: these in these text messages and truly was given a

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Speaker 2: persona as well. They were egging each other on. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's this dominant submissive relationship that was was able to

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Speaker 2: be illustrated geographically in court literally by with graphics of

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Speaker 2: the of the text messages. For instance, at one point,

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Speaker 2: Lenin to Lily texts, I will fear you, but respect you.

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Speaker 2: I see you as my dominant. That's that. That just

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00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: lays it out in less than twenty words, right, Lily

389
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: to Lenin, one hundred percent perfect. It would seem you

390
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: truly understand my SOS role. And then Lily to Lenin again,

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Speaker 2: my mind is the darkest being you will ever be

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Speaker 2: laying your life in the hands off. And if you

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Speaker 2: read Lily's book, I wouldn't recommend it. It's terrible in

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Speaker 2: terms of just spelling errors and plot development and characters

395
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Speaker 2: and everything. But it's also two hundred odd pages of

396
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: literally a window into Lily's mind as we now know

397
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: that type of language is, you know, just strewn all

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Speaker 2: over the pages there. So just those three and there

399
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: were there were dozens and dozens of these text messages

400
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Speaker 2: back and forth, really just you know, confirming to each

401
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: other what their roles were, also emboldened in each other

402
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: to build up to the day where they went to

403
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: that shopping center and got Aaron into their car. And then,

404
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 2: as we'll probably go on to discuss, there were text

405
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: messages after the crime that they committed that showed that

406
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: they weren't regretful of what they've done at all. In fact,

407
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: Lily was elated at what she'd done because she'd done

408
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 2: what she always wanted to do. Along with the messages

409
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: to each other about each other and embolding each other,

410
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: they were also quite graphic messages about the act or

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00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 2: the act that they were building up to, or certainly

412
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Speaker 2: that Lily wanted them both to build up to. This

413
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 2: message that I'm about to read out was very similar

414
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: to some of the passages in the book, but this

415
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 2: was actually written to Lenin. She wrote to her, I

416
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: feel as though I cannot rest until the blood or

417
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: the flesh of a screaming, pleading victim is gushing out

418
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: and pulling on the floor. Now that's horrifying enough. But

419
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Speaker 2: as we got into the trial, there was a photograph

420
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Speaker 2: that was tendered by the prosecutors after they'd been into

421
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Speaker 2: Lily's house where the crime was committed, and echoing that

422
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 2: cover art for the book, there was a room that

423
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: had been basically blocked off in the house, a tiled floor,

424
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Speaker 2: and it had blue top haul in all the way

425
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: around it, floors and ceiling, allah dexter tild floor covered walls,

426
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: and two other items. There were photographs which were chilling,

427
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: and the photographs online if anyone is interested in seeing it.

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Speaker 2: In one caller was a toolbox, one of those tall

429
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: red toolboxes with draws in and on the other was

430
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: a hospital gurney for one of the better words. This

431
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: is where ultimately police deduced that Aaron's body was kept

432
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Speaker 2: after he was killed, and then it was later moved

433
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: and buried in the crudely buried but buried nonetheless in

434
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: the backyard of the Lily home, and that that text

435
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: message or pleading victim is gushing and pulling on the floor.

436
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: You can only read that as a foretaste of what

437
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: was to come, unfortunately, because it's so close to the

438
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: to the physical evidence that the police later found.

439
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: So these two women are living together at this stage, right,

440
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: So they are in the same home. They've prepared this

441
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: home for their potential victim. Who is Aaron Paige sweet Men.

442
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: How does he come into the picture? You mentioned that

443
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: they met him through Trudy's son, but how did they

444
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: managed to lure him into their home?

445
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, the physical connection is, as I say, through Truy's son.

446
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: Aaron played Sweetman was as his name suggests, a very

447
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: sweet young man, but he was also a very vulnerable

448
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: young man. He came from let's say, difficult family circumstances.

449
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 2: There was animosity there but between his mom and his

450
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: dad and his stepmom. He had learning difficulties. He had

451
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: some diagnosed neurodiversience. But he was also interested in technology

452
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 2: and computers and gaming as many many young teenage men are,

453
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: and he had friends, He had interests. He was independent

454
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: as far as he could be, but it was through

455
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: Lenin and through a friendship with Lennon's son, who was

456
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: younger than Aaron, but nevertheless they were friends that Truly

457
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: knew him and eventually had his contact details. She contacted

458
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: Aaron to ask him whether he would come to their

459
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: home to download and upload some software, some gaming software,

460
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: and Aaron b and Aaron, with the interests he had

461
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: and the naivete let's say he had, he agreed to

462
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: do this, and so they arranged to meet at a

463
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: shopping center quite close to Lily's home. They met there.

464
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: CCTV captures the meeting there, and completely innocently, thinking that

465
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: all he's doing is doing a favor for a friend's mum,

466
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: he gets in Gema's car and they drive. They drive away,

467
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: and they end up at Eli's home, where Aaron is

468
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: doing exactly what he'd been asked to do. He was

469
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: in a chair in a side bedroom uploading and downloading

470
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: some software onto Truly's computer. But at that point, Truly

471
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: Lennon knew exactly what was going to happen, because it

472
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: had been discussed in great detail between her and Lily,

473
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: so she stood back, but not far enough that she

474
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: couldn't see what was happening. Eema Lily came up behind

475
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: Aaron as he sat in the chair with a garrotte,

476
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: an old style garrot with thin wire, and choked Aaron

477
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: with that quite severely, but not severely enough to actually

478
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: end Aaron's life. She did that with a knife, one

479
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: of the knives that she collected and proudly displayed it

480
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: in her home. She stabbed Aaron multiple times. Aaron fell

481
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 2: forward onto the floor of that room, and they watched

482
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: that young man bleed to death in their home. The circumstance,

483
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: as we understand it then, was they moved the body

484
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: to that room that we spoke about, that hidden room.

485
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: They cut the piece of the carpet out underneath the

486
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: window where Aaron had bled most and got rid of that.

487
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: And then they, for two or three days just went

488
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: about their their daily lives, the while, all the while

489
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: congratulating each other verbally but also by a text message,

490
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: which I found some of the hardest material to hear,

491
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 2: because they've not only ended this young man's life, they

492
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: destroyed the asley, destroyed the families of of his you know,

493
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: his close relatives, his friends. But then they reveled in it.

494
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: They congratulated themselves, They you know, emboldened each other with

495
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: you know how good we are and how brilliant we are,

496
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: and we got away with it, et cetera, et cetera,

497
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: thinking cruelly that because Aaron was living away from home

498
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: and vulnerable, and you know that no one would miss him,

499
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: which is almost the cruelest part of all, right, that

500
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: they'd eraised this young man also, they thought, and the

501
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 2: people would just forget him. But that wasn't the case

502
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: at all, as we discussed right at the start, and

503
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 2: Aaron was declared missing by his family almost immediately, maybe

504
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: two days less than seventy two hours after his death, anyway,

505
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: and police immediately started looking for him. They looked into

506
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: his background, they looked into his connections, and they looked

507
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 2: into his phone records, as police obviously do these days.

508
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: And the last phone call, one of the last phone

509
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: calls that he'd received, was from Trudy Lennon's fine. So

510
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: they tracked Lennon down, find out where she was living,

511
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: went to that house, and what they found there not

512
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 2: only was the paraffername of murder and horror, but they

513
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: also found physical evidence of it, right that one that

514
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: piece of carpet cut out. But the most striking thing

515
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: that they found when they got to the house was

516
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: very recently, very shoddly constructed patio which had obviously been

517
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: something had been laid on this grass patch cement, and

518
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: then on top of that had been laid some pretty

519
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: horrible looking thirty by thirty tiles. So they had a

520
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: missing man, young man. They had a phone call to

521
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: this woman. They had this house which literally was signed

522
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: Elm Street because that's what Lily had put on the

523
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 2: back porch was, you know, Elm Street. And then they

524
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 2: had this weird DIY project. And when they put all

525
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: the police put all that together, they came to a

526
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: very quick and horrible conclusion. And so they dug this

527
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: patio for one of the better word up. They found

528
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: concrete underneath. They dug that up, and then they found

529
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: disturbed earth. And when they redisturbed that earth, they found

530
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: a white sheet and inside that was Aaron Pietry's body.

531
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: Was that.

532
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: The way they disposed of his whole body? I know

533
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: there was some discussion, and there's CCTV footage of these

534
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: two women at local hardware stores collecting up lots of

535
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: supplies to commit the murder, but also to get rid

536
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: of his body. Was it true that they'd tried other

537
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: ways to dissolve his body before ending up burying him

538
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: in the backyard.

539
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: Part of this story and part of their planning was

540
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 2: they went to a Bunning's store in the days before

541
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 2: Aaron went missing. CCTV of it, and in that CCTV

542
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 2: you can see Gemial early at the till and behind

543
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: her Trudy Lennon with one of those long flat led trolleys,

544
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 2: and on that trolley was a significant amount of acid

545
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 2: which they purchased. When police later went through that house

546
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 2: forensically in an annex I believe, either behind the house

547
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 2: or attached to the house, they found an old oven

548
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: with an old pot, and there was some meat in there.

549
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: This meat, this raw meat, hadn't been cooked. It had

550
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: been submerged in acid. And the logical conclusion, the one

551
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: that was put as a theory before the jury, was

552
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: that this was those two testing what was possible, what

553
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: would happen if you put a piece of raw meat

554
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 2: into this acid into a pot. The remains of it,

555
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: the remnants of it were there, and so it hadn't

556
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: had worked completely because you can still see what it was,

557
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: that some acid and a piece of meat, So you

558
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: know presumably these two had done that test thought better

559
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: of it, or realized it was harder than they thought

560
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: it was going to be and it wasn't as easy

561
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: as the movies make it seem, and so they came

562
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: up with another plan, which was the one that they

563
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: ended up going through with, and was the one that

564
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately was the jury saw and accepted. Was

565
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: the way that Aaron's body had been disposed of. The

566
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: one thing I didn't mention when they found Aaron in

567
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: the sheet, they also found that his face had been

568
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: enveloped with plastic cling film for some reason, because the

569
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: pathology suggested that the stab wounds that Aaron suffered would

570
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: have been fatal. So what that was about, who knows.

571
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: But it was a final indignity that was inflicted on

572
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 2: Aaron before before he was so crudely disposed of.

573
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: After the break we learned how police discovered Aaron's body.

574
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: How cooperative were Gemma and Trudy in the aftermath of

575
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: police finding Aaron's body buried in the backyard. Did they

576
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: assist police in their investigation, did they try and lead

577
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: them astray? What were they like?

578
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: This was fascinating. At another fascinating part of this case

579
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: because Lily ad Or always wanted to do this right.

580
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: She'd written about it. She fanstized about it, she diorized

581
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: that she thought about different ways, but when it came

582
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: to it, when it came to it, she denied it.

583
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 2: She denied murdering Aaron Piech. She blamed truly Lennon. And

584
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 2: the two interviews or the multiple interviews with the two

585
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: women were some amazing police work, I have to say,

586
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 2: because not only did they unpick this relationship pretty quickly,

587
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: they then used this relationship to get to the truth.

588
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: They knew it was more than likely that Lily had

589
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: done that deed because she was gem and Lily and

590
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: they and then they had all the material on her.

591
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: But they knew that Lennon must have helped her. So

592
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 2: they were really interested to work that. When then when

593
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: Lily got into the interview room, she blamed Lenmon and

594
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: she said, oh I watched and I couldn't stop, et cetera,

595
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 2: et cetera. They used that non confession or that that

596
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: blame that Lily was was heaping on Lenin in Lenin's

597
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 2: interview interviews to break her down because initially she was like, oh,

598
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: I didn't know, I didn't know what was happening. I

599
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: didn't know it was going to happen. It was completely

600
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: shocked to me, et cetera, et cetera. But then slowly

601
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: and surely they broke this, this this submissive woman down

602
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 2: to the point where they came to the truth as

603
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: the facts and the evidence would would would had it

604
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: have it been, And ultimately Lennon said, no, I didn't

605
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: actually kill Aaron. It was truly and so irony of ironies.

606
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: We get to a court case and we have what's

607
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: colloquially known in legal terms as a cutthroat defense, which

608
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: is they're blaming each other to try and absorb blame

609
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 2: from each other. And that's that's how that's how it

610
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: played out. The whole trial was that they denied, they downplayed,

611
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: they denuded their own roles while you know, pointing out

612
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: or amplifying or you know, not exaggerating, but certainly emphasizing

613
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 2: the role of the other person. So were they cooperative?

614
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: You could say yes they were, because ultimately that all that,

615
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: all that cross pollinating evidence and testimony led the jury

616
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: to the to the verdicts that they got to. But

617
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: they didn't ultimately confess they had to be found guilty.

618
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: They had to put Aaron's family and the state and

619
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: the lawyers and the judge and the witnesses through that

620
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 2: ordeal of a trial. And it was an ordeal. It

621
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: was a long trial, it was a graphic trial. It

622
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: was an emotional trial. Aaron's family had to give evidence,

623
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: that Lily's friends had to give evidence, pathologies, some police

624
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: had to give evidence, and that's you know, that's that's

625
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: a big thing to do when a young man is

626
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: dead and in such graphic ways. So yeah, it was

627
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: the psychology of that was and the psychology of it

628
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: was interesting. But the way that the police, the detectives

629
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: came at this case was also really really fascinating and ultimately,

630
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: I mean, you have to praise the work that they

631
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: did and the interviews that they did because they got

632
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: to the truth in the end.

633
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 1: Tim, How did Jemma's family handle this, because they've obviously

634
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: at one stage tried their best to help her by

635
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: sending her out to Australia, hoping to interrupt these dark

636
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: thoughts and fantasies and life that she was living. I

637
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: understand that Jimma spoke to her dad about it, denied

638
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 1: that she did it. So she continued to deny evento

639
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: those closest to her, But how did her family handle

640
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 1: her being accused of murder?

641
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: The family in the UK and those closer in the UK,

642
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: certainly the ones that I communicated with, Some of them said, well,

643
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 2: this is just this was just always going to happen.

644
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: Richard Lilly, who was Jama's father, who is Jem's father,

645
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 2: categorically one said she didn't do it. He came to

646
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 2: the UK. I came from the UK, sorry to Australia,

647
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: was attended the trial, spoke to us at a certain level.

648
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 2: I mean, the media who were covering this trial was

649
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: obviously didn't like the way the trial was panning out

650
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: in terms of evidence, but also coverage. I certainly got

651
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 2: the impression he was he felt that we were unfairly,

652
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: you know, casting his daughters as this monster. And he's

653
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: stuck to that and he has stuck to that. He

654
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 2: did interviews following the conviction where he again said she

655
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 2: just couldn't have done this, This isn't her. But I

656
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 2: after the trial, I tracked down a chap called Roland Hulker,

657
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: who was a very close friend of Richard Lilly, back

658
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: in the UK, who ultimately Jemma stayed with when she

659
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 2: first moved here. So that's how close Richard and Roland were.

660
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 2: And I went to Roland's house and he was hugely

661
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: hospitable and we had a cup of tea and had

662
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 2: a long chat and he said two things. He said

663
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: one Gemma was it wasn't too bad when she first

664
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 2: got to Australia in terms of her dark obsessions, but

665
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: then he could see her slipping back into that. She

666
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: was getting you know, darker clothing, darker music, more tattoos

667
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: and etc. And eventually he wasn't comfortable with her living

668
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: with him, so he moved She moved out into the house.

669
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: Eventually with she was arrested. But he also said that Richard,

670
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: in his eyes as a close friend, was always a

671
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: overprotective and maybe not realistic in his assessment of Gemma's

672
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: mental health, mental state, interests, etc. So he said it

673
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 2: to me. I had conversations with Richard about Gemma while

674
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: she was here. I said, I'm worried about her. I

675
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: don't think she's well. I think you need to do

676
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: something or come here, and do you know, I'm just

677
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: informing you and Richie went up, She's fine. I truly

678
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 2: believe she's fine. So again, an interesting dynamic, a split

679
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: if you like, between her father, who was always hugely supportive,

680
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: and then other members of the family and other people

681
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: close to Gemma said, yeah, now that this has happened,

682
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: I can understand or I.

683
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: Can see why did it take the jury long to

684
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: make a decision after being shown all that evidence, the

685
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: text messages, the testimony they've given, or the interviews that

686
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: they'd given, blaming each other, and all of those experts

687
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: that stepped up. What did the jury think of all

688
00:46:59,680 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: of that?

689
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: Two and a half hours was how long the jury

690
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: were out, which, in a when you're deliberating over not one,

691
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: just but two people on a murder charge, that's not

692
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: long at all. As graphic as it was, it was

693
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: also as obvious as it came to be right as

694
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: what had happened. And again, I will go back to

695
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: the detective work, the police work in this case. I

696
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: worked quite closely with one of the detectives that worked

697
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: on this case in other cases, and he was one

698
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: of the interviewing officers actually, and I know how much

699
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: this case affected the Serious Crimes squad in Western Australian

700
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: Police because just because of everything right, the victim, the

701
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: family circumstances, the way he was killed, the way he

702
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 2: was disposed of the way these two then conducted themselves

703
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 2: in court. This was a trial in more than one

704
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 2: sense of the word. But you know, it didn't take

705
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: the jury long for good reason and for the right reasons.

706
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 2: And they you know, I can say this now I'm

707
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 2: not a court reporter anymore. It was the right decision.

708
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: It was obviously the right decision because that's that's that,

709
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: that was the truth of what happened. But I will

710
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: also give some insight into the effects that these trials

711
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,439
Speaker 2: can have. So what I knew both the lawyers who

712
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: were tasked with defending truly Lennon and and Gemal Lily,

713
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: And certainly I know the lawyer that defended Gemal Lily

714
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: was deeply, deeply affected by this trial. There's a misnomer

715
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 2: out there, right, the defense lawyers and they just rock

716
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: up and take the money and you know, a life

717
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 2: for a living and all this type of thing. But

718
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 2: you know, without them, the justice system wouldn't work because

719
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: every defendant it needs a defense lawyer, right, and when

720
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: you're on such a serious chargers murder, you need a

721
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: very experienced defense lawyer, and Gemal Lily had one of

722
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: the most experienced in Perth at that time and I've

723
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: spoken to him since about this trial and he it

724
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 2: was it's deeply deeply affected him as well, just because

725
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: of not only the material that he had to deal with,

726
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 2: but the person he was having to deal with as well,

727
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: and having to defend and having to try and advise

728
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 2: in a legal sense. So yeah, it's it's it's it's

729
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: one of those cases when you when you when you

730
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 2: wrap it all up, that is just so it's so

731
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 2: bizarre that this, this could, this could happen in Perth.

732
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 2: And we say it, We've said it a lot about

733
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: crimes in Perth and sometimes Perth can seem a different

734
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: world and a different country to the rest of Australia.

735
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: And in some ways it is because every so often

736
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: a criminal case will pop up that is so you know, notorious.

737
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 2: You think, how the hell could that happen? And then

738
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: on top of that, how could the help, how the

739
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: health that happened in Perth, because you know, we're the

740
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 2: big side sort of paradise that everyone comes to to

741
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: have fun and come away with their talent, right, But

742
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: there's some dark there's some dark undercurrents in this city

743
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 2: that sometimes comes to the service and.

744
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: This was one of them, I understand. Tou aside from

745
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 1: the jury not taking a hell of a long time

746
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: to make the decision, that the judge handed down quite

747
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: a significant sentence too.

748
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the most significant sense you can ever hand

749
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 2: down his life and life is mandatory for murder in

750
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: Western Australia, so that's what these two women got, and

751
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: that's what these two women are serving. But in our system,

752
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: as in others in Australia and around the world, a

753
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 2: judge also has to set a minimum term for the

754
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: minimum amount of time that a murderer has to serve

755
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 2: before they can be eligible for parole. In this case,

756
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 2: it was twenty eight years each for Lily and Lennon.

757
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: So the judge ruled that they were equally culpable of

758
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,959
Speaker 2: this crime and they should serve the same So twenty

759
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 2: eight years, which at the time that they were sentenced,

760
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 2: was one of the longest minimum terms ever set for

761
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 2: any murder in Western Australia, but particularly for female killers.

762
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 2: We've had at least one notorious one of those in

763
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: Western Australia as well, but two of them working together,

764
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 2: living together, in a relationship together. They are extremely rare,

765
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: as was this case, and it warranted an extremely rare sentence,

766
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 2: which is what they've got.

767
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: It's now been ten years since Aaron Page Sweetman's murder

768
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: and there was a great outpouring of grief in the

769
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 1: community after his death, something that Trudy and Jemmy didn't

770
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: count on because they figured he would just be invisible,

771
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: seeing that he was on the spectrum. Do we know

772
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: what life has been like for Trudy and for Gemma

773
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: whilst behind bars they treated in prison?

774
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: Well, firstly, there was i have to say, sort of

775
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: revulsion at what they've done and the way they've done

776
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: it and how they conducted themselves. During the trial, it

777
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: made headlines back in the UK for certain there were

778
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 2: sort of TV interviews with Aaron's mum and dad, but

779
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 2: also with Lily's father as well. Since then, life hasn't

780
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 2: been that easy for truly Lenin, at least when whilst

781
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: she's in custody. She's been attacked twice, once very seriously

782
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: by another prisoner who poured boiling water over her while

783
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: they were waiting in a queue for medication. She suffered

784
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 2: third degree burns to her head, the back of her neck,

785
00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: her shoulders are back the battocks, and that person who

786
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 2: committed that crime was very open as to why they'd

787
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 2: done it. They didn't like, in fact detested, what Lenin

788
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 2: had done, and they wanted her to pay an extra price. Now,

789
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 2: obviously vigilanteism in prison is frowned upon very seriously by

790
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 2: the authorities, as it should be. Justice had been served,

791
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 2: she had been sentenced, and she didn't deserve to be attacked.

792
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 2: The person who did the attack got nearly five years

793
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: I think for that attack. But again, the public when

794
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 2: I wrote that story and followed that trial and followed

795
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 2: that sentencing, that the overwhelming messages I got were not

796
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 2: sympathetic towards Judie Lennar. So that goes to show the

797
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,919
Speaker 2: level of as I say, revulsion that still exists in

798
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 2: the public domain for her. They come to Lily, She's

799
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 2: a slightly more interesting life in prison so far. A

800
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: former colleague of mine, Kate Campbell, had impeccable still does

801
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 2: impeccable prison contacts, and she was reliably informed and then

802
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: in fact corroborated that generally had been placed in a

803
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 2: prison away from the main prison population, unlike len And

804
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 2: because she was on another level, or the prison authorities,

805
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 2: i should say, felt she was on another level again

806
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: in terms of her risk of being of what her

807
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 2: fate might might have been in prison, and so they

808
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: placed her in a special unit. Also housed in that

809
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: unit was a lady called Melanie Atwood, who again was

810
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: another one of my former trials and cases. Melanie Atwood

811
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: was a lady who had far right leanings let's let's

812
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: so we say, and fell into a relationship with a

813
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 2: neo Nazi. That neo Nazi felt so strongly that Melanie

814
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: Atwood should be with him and not her current partner,

815
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 2: that she murdered Melanie Atwood's partner with Melanie Autwards knowledge.

816
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 2: In fact, Melanie Atwoods was quite happy for her partner

817
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: to die so she could be with this neo Nazi

818
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: chap in prison. Melanie Atwood, it would appear, and Jemma

819
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 2: Lily had struck up a relationship. They were sell mates first,

820
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: then they became intimate and it made it no secret

821
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: at all in the prison system that they were a

822
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: couple until it became public knowledge through Kate's reporting, and

823
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 2: Jemal Lily was then moved away from Melanie Atwood's orbit.

824
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: I haven't heard much from Jemal Lily since then, I

825
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 2: would assume because she's trying to keep her head down.

826
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 2: I hope she's trying to keep her head down. I

827
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: hope she's reflecting on the life she's lived up to now,

828
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 2: because she's still a young woman, and the possibility that

829
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: she might get parole in some distant future and she

830
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 2: might do something with it if she was ever granted it.

831
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: But that will ultimately be up to the prison system

832
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 2: and then ultimately up to our Attorney General here in

833
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 2: Western Australia, who has to sign off on any parole

834
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 2: applications for serious criminals like Lily. And it'll be an

835
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 2: interesting day when that piece of paper comes across whomever

836
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: attorney General might be sitting in that position in twenty

837
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 2: odd years or so.

838
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: Tim, thank you so much for taking us through this case,

839
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: as wildly unhinged as it is, and for keeping us

840
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: up to date on where it stands.

841
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 2: Pleasure. Just one last thing. I had a lot of

842
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: significant contact with Aaron's family during the trial and during

843
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 2: actually appeals as well, that did eventuate but obviously fail.

844
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 2: They were amazing people still are. Aaron's father, in particular,

845
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 2: was an absolute tower of strength. He was dealing with

846
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 2: the loss of his son, he was dealing with health

847
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 2: issues for his wife, and also the fallout of inevitable

848
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 2: emotional fallout of this that happens in any family. But

849
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 2: anytime we asked to speak to them, they were gentle,

850
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 2: They answered our questions and I often well, particularly this

851
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 2: week when he contacted me and asked me to talk

852
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 2: about this case, and going back and reading about it,

853
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 2: I had and have nothing but admiration for Aaron's family

854
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: and so I hope this podcast doesn't bring up anything

855
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 2: too traumatic for them, But if they are listening, and

856
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: if it does, it just please take that you were

857
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 2: absolutely amazing doing the trial. You endured something that no

858
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 2: family should, and myself and I'm sure every West Australian

859
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 2: remembers this case will also remember your kindness and endurance

860
00:57:58,320 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 2: and yeah, we think of you.

861
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: Tim told us after this interview that he spoke to

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Speaker 1: the detective who worked this case many years later. He

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Speaker 1: told him that he was so relieved that they'd managed

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Speaker 1: to get these two behind bars after they so callously

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Speaker 1: took Aaron's life because he was absolutely sure if they

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Speaker 1: hadn't caught them, they would have done it again. Thank

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Speaker 1: you to Tim for helping us tell this story. If

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Speaker 1: you want to see photos and videos from this case,

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Speaker 1: head over to our Instagram page at true Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 1: Oh I've posted some of them for in depth case explainers.

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Speaker 1: Follow us on TikTok under the same handle. True Crime

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Speaker 1: Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer

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Speaker 1: is Charlie Blackman. The group executive producer is a Larier Brophy,

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Speaker 1: and there's been audio designed by Jacob Brownt. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for listening, Jemma Bath. We'll be back next week

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Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation. True Crime Conversations acknowledges the

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on