Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Biz in Box. I'm M Burnham
Speaker 2: and today I am thrilled to be joined by an
Speaker 2: absolute powerhouse in the entrepreneur world, Sarah Davidson. Sarah, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on today. I am very
Speaker 2: very excited.
Speaker 1: Oh and thank you for having me. I am equally
Speaker 1: as excited. And I feel like there's a mutual fangirling
Speaker 1: going on right now.
Speaker 2: There is absolutely no way this is mutual because your
Speaker 2: career compared to mine, Like, we just need to break
Speaker 2: this down because you will definitely know Sarah from her
Speaker 2: brilliant podcast Sees the Ya. But what's truly fascinating is
Speaker 2: how she completely transformed her live, swapping her career as
Speaker 2: a corporate lawyer to become the founder of her own
Speaker 2: widely successful retail brand and emerging as one of Australia's
Speaker 2: most in a Win Your Voices in entrepreneurship, Sarah is
Speaker 2: here to share some wisdom about embracing the unexpected and
Speaker 2: how sometimes having no plan can actually turn out to
Speaker 2: be the blest plan of all. Like, I feel like
Speaker 2: everyone always forgets you used to be in corporate law.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even I forget sometimes until we get an opportunity
Speaker 1: like this. You know, when someone else reads your bio,
Speaker 1: it just has this extra like nice panache. Then like
Speaker 1: when you say it yourself and it's like, who is
Speaker 1: that that they're talking about.
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's ever read my bio. Mine would
Speaker 2: be like and Burnham. She sometimes likes to work, she
Speaker 2: sometimes doesn't.
Speaker 1: Here she is good lurker. I'll endorse you for the lurking.
Speaker 1: It's a great skill, you know, in this day and age. Lurking, Yes,
Speaker 1: is pervy, so bit pervy. I call it thorough, I think,
Speaker 1: ok yeah, yeah, the marketing spin for every skill you know,
Speaker 1: I'd call that thorough. Good researcher, attention to detail.
Speaker 2: Okay, these are the mean on it.
Speaker 1: Put your best foot forward.
Speaker 2: This is smart. I'm writing this down already, like this
Speaker 2: is exactly what we need in these viz Inbox episodes.
Speaker 2: It's our very own ask us anything so you can
Speaker 2: get all of your career advice without your boss or
Speaker 2: colleagues ever finding out. If you don't want them to,
Speaker 2: we will keep you completely anonymous.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I mean m I have wanted to
Speaker 1: call in many times. So the fact that I get
Speaker 1: to be here. It is so exciting. And this week
Speaker 1: I'll be sharing how to make those dreaded tell us
Speaker 1: a fun fact about yourself moments actually fun. Plus, we
Speaker 1: will tackle a big dilemma about career pivots. But first
Speaker 1: let's chat about those tricky job interview questions that always
Speaker 1: make you second gets yourself.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, these questions are very, very heated for me
Speaker 2: because I have no idea what to do with this.
Speaker 2: So we got this cent on our DMS by Charlie
Speaker 2: and she says, I keep getting asked where do you
Speaker 2: see yourself in five years in interviews, and honestly I
Speaker 2: never tell the truth because, like most people my age,
Speaker 2: I probably won't be at the company for that long.
Speaker 2: What are recruiters really looking for with this question? Are
Speaker 2: they checking if I'm ambitious enough on want management, trying
Speaker 2: to show their care about my career journey, or just
Speaker 2: testing if I can politely feb about my commitment. It
Speaker 2: feels so outdated for twenty twenty five. How should I
Speaker 2: handle these predictable questions without sounding fake? I never know
Speaker 2: how to answer this question.
Speaker 1: Ever, I love this question because I think it is
Speaker 1: so well I don't love the question from recruiters, but
Speaker 1: I love the question in the DMS because I think
Speaker 1: so many people wonder that these days, like how do
Speaker 1: you gently yeah, feb about your level of commitment? And
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think it is a bit
Speaker 1: outdated for this day and age to sort of ask
Speaker 1: about the five year plan, because not everyone necessarily has one,
Speaker 1: and the world changes so rapidly. We're meant to have
Speaker 1: sort of twelve to fifteen careers in our lifetime now.
Speaker 1: It is kind of an outdated question, but I think
Speaker 1: most recruiters are aware of that rapid pace of careers.
Speaker 1: I don't think they expect you to say, look, in
Speaker 1: five years, I probably will have moved on. I don't
Speaker 1: think they want that level of honesty from you, But
Speaker 1: I think it is possible to answer authentically and acknowledge
Speaker 1: that your five year plan is uncertain, but also show
Speaker 1: commitment at the same time. I think they're not necessarily
Speaker 1: looking for someone who will last twenty five years, but
Speaker 1: they're looking for someone who can show they have ambition
Speaker 1: right now and that they can have commitment right now.
Speaker 1: So I think it still pays to show that you've
Speaker 1: researched the company and have got a list of ways
Speaker 1: you could grow within their company and within the advertised role.
Speaker 1: You can still show that you have long term goals
Speaker 1: that align with the business and why you'd make a
Speaker 1: valuable contribution. I think you can do that without saying
Speaker 1: I'm going to be here in fifty years time. I
Speaker 1: think there is a nice middle ground without life and
Speaker 1: feeling fake.
Speaker 2: Okay, this landed in our DMS recently, and it's an anonymous question,
Speaker 2: which is my favorite one because they're extra juicy, And
Speaker 2: it says I've been working in corporate finance for seven
Speaker 2: years and while I'm good at it, I'm completely unfulfilled.
Speaker 2: I've been studying part time to become a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 2: Oh but for you, it's something I've always been passionate about.
Speaker 2: But the thought of leaving my secure six figure job
Speaker 2: for years of additional training and starting over terrifies me.
Speaker 2: How did you know it's the right time to make
Speaker 2: the leap? What duck should I have lined up? And
Speaker 2: what advice would you give someone standing at the edge
Speaker 2: of a major career pivot that feels meaningful but incredibly risky.
Speaker 2: Oh this is a good one. I love this. I
Speaker 2: feel like you're perfectly suited to answer this question.
Speaker 1: I definitely remember being at that crossroads, and this point
Speaker 1: in time is my favorite time to encounter someone and
Speaker 1: to get to chat to them, because I feel like
Speaker 1: it is it's a real pivotal time. You can either
Speaker 1: go towards the risk or you could easily shy away
Speaker 1: from it. And I think obviously we all have a
Speaker 1: really different risk tolerance and the most important thing to
Speaker 1: remember is that the right time is going to be
Speaker 1: different for everyone. Like, as much as I want to say,
Speaker 1: leave your job, take the leap, I think you do
Speaker 1: have to have a really honest evaluation of what your
Speaker 1: risk matrix looks like. So when I left, I had
Speaker 1: no mortgage, I had no kids. Sure it was risky
Speaker 1: to walk away from my legal career, but overall my
Speaker 1: commitments were pretty you know, I could minimize the risk
Speaker 1: quite a lot. And my best advice is minimize the
Speaker 1: risk as much as you can so the leap is
Speaker 1: as small as possible. So you know, if you do
Speaker 1: have a side hustle, stay in it as long as
Speaker 1: you can until you need to go full time. You
Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to jump straight away on the flip side.
Speaker 1: I think if you have looked at your financial position,
Speaker 1: you do have some savings. Sure you might be leaving
Speaker 1: a bit of security, or you might be leaving a
Speaker 1: six figure job. But I make decisions based on future
Speaker 1: regret management. What will future me regret more? Will they
Speaker 1: regret trying and seeing or will they regret never taking
Speaker 1: the chance and never knowing? And I think most of
Speaker 1: us would rather try and see because you can always
Speaker 1: go back. You forget that, you can always just go
Speaker 1: back to where you were before. I think it's better to,
Speaker 1: once you've yeah taken account of your responsibilities, give it
Speaker 1: a go. You'll be so surprised what you can make
Speaker 1: work and how much more capable you are than you think.
Speaker 2: That is such an exciting answer. Also, to jump off
Speaker 2: of that, do you think there's a such thing as
Speaker 2: you're too old to change careers? Oh?
Speaker 1: My gosh, never, never, And I think there are I
Speaker 1: can't think off the top of my head. But go
Speaker 1: and google the people who started their careers sort of
Speaker 1: later in their life sixties seventies. People who we know
Speaker 1: of now is like the absolute leader and shining star
Speaker 1: of the industries. A lot of them only came to
Speaker 1: that industry later in life, which are just like I
Speaker 1: think maybe Vira Wang was one of them. I think
Speaker 1: she only started designing at forty or I can't think
Speaker 1: of the list, but go and google it for reassurance
Speaker 1: that it is never too late. And the quote I
Speaker 1: always come back to is in ten years from now,
Speaker 1: you'll wish you started today. So really like the sooner
Speaker 1: you can start something that you know you're going to
Speaker 1: want to have done the better, like hy waste a
Speaker 1: moment wondering when you can, you can go and see.
Speaker 1: And I think my other big thing that comes up
Speaker 1: when I saw this question was when you are about
Speaker 1: to make a leap, you're going to ask people for
Speaker 1: advice because it's so scary, like you're going to obviously
Speaker 1: leave a message in the inbox, but you might consult
Speaker 1: the people around you ask the right people. When I
Speaker 1: was leaving law, the exact wrong person to ask for
Speaker 1: advice was other lawyers, because of course they think the
Speaker 1: same as me. They've got the same risk aversion. The
Speaker 1: people I had to ask was other business people who
Speaker 1: had left their careers and seen how wonderful it could be.
Speaker 1: I knew what answer I'd get from which friends of mine,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to hear a yes, so I asked
Speaker 1: the people who would give me a yes.
Speaker 2: Oh that's so good. It's also one of those things
Speaker 2: where if you're choosing between two different things, you flip
Speaker 2: a coin for it, and depending on where the coin lands,
Speaker 2: if it lands on heads but you wanted to land
Speaker 2: on tails, then you have your answer. Like there's always
Speaker 2: one side where you wanted to land a bit more,
Speaker 2: and that gives you the answer. And I think that's
Speaker 2: like such just such an exciting answer, Like I'm so
Speaker 2: excited for this anonymous person, Like I think that's just
Speaker 2: the perfect answer for them. And I'm really excited to
Speaker 2: see you that career shift. And I really wish we
Speaker 2: knew who you were so we could track you. But
Speaker 2: that's just an exciting answer. I love stuff like that.
Speaker 2: It's so much fun. Okay, So I have been working
Speaker 2: for seven years now and I still haven't worked out
Speaker 2: the right answer for this one. So Sarah, this is
Speaker 2: all on you to do. We got this question from
Speaker 2: Melissa in Sydney and she says, I've just started a
Speaker 2: new job and been asked to share a fun fact
Speaker 2: about myself for the company newsletter. And I'm completely overthinking it.
Speaker 2: Should these be work related or personal? How much of
Speaker 2: my actual personality should I reveal? My previous workplace made
Speaker 2: us share fun facts in person during meetings, where I
Speaker 2: could at least laugh along and people got my delivery.
Speaker 2: But a newsletter fun fact feels so permanent and might
Speaker 2: come across completely wrong without my facial expressions to back
Speaker 2: it up. What's the sweet pot? What's the sweet spot
Speaker 2: for a fun fact that makes a good impression without
Speaker 2: being too much? Now, I don't want to throw mom
Speaker 2: and me a under the bus here, but we do this.
Speaker 2: It's so funny. It's like we've done it since I
Speaker 2: started here in like twenty eighteen, I think, but before
Speaker 2: you joined the big company Slack channel and emails and
Speaker 2: you see everyone they just announced like all the new
Speaker 2: starters and they have like a little fun fact. And
Speaker 2: I remember when I did. It was for the newsletter,
Speaker 2: and I was like, wait, I just have to write
Speaker 2: a fun fact that's going to go out to the
Speaker 2: masses for people not knowing. I had no idea. Watch,
Speaker 2: I can't remember what I wrote. I think I just
Speaker 2: read something so dumb, like I have two dogs, like
Speaker 2: something so silly. And then when I joined the company
Speaker 2: and like I was reading everyone else's fun facts, it
Speaker 2: would be something like, oh, I explored Europe for three
Speaker 2: years and that's where I met my husband and I
Speaker 2: had my kids, and I was like, oh my god, Like,
Speaker 2: this is so embarrassing for me. I do not know
Speaker 2: how to do this question. But now every time someone
Speaker 2: does a silly fun fact that MoMA and Maya, I
Speaker 2: am very excited for them.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I mean, as a chronic oversharer who
Speaker 1: hasn't worked in a corporate environment in a while, I
Speaker 1: might not be the safest person to ask this question.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Sarah, I reckon, you should just send
Speaker 2: yourself a fun fact about yourself every day so you
Speaker 2: know how traumatizing it is doing this.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to circulate it internally to myself for
Speaker 1: the full team to enjoy it. I mean, I may
Speaker 1: be a bit skewed towards a higher level of fun
Speaker 1: than the average workplace, but I think it definitely depends
Speaker 1: on the environment you're going into the industry, the type
Speaker 1: of office, Like you can probably get a bit of
Speaker 1: a gauge from the role and the company that you're at.
Speaker 1: What they're accepted level of fun would be. I definitely
Speaker 1: would err on the side of caution, Like I think
Speaker 1: the way this was worded the question if you're doubtful
Speaker 1: that they'll understand it without your facial expressions as a backup,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't use that fun fact, Like, if you're wondering,
Speaker 1: then probably just don't use it. I definitely go something
Speaker 1: that you know, Yeah, don't risk it because you never
Speaker 1: know who will see it. But I also think don't
Speaker 1: go too safe either, because the point of it is
Speaker 1: to start an interesting conversationation. It's to seek out the
Speaker 1: other people in this company who you might not normally
Speaker 1: get to meet, and it's your chance. It is kind
Speaker 1: of a chance. You don't get that much airtime on
Speaker 1: a mass group company slack, right, Like, you don't get
Speaker 1: that many chances to say something interesting about yourself that
Speaker 1: isn't your performance or your role. So I would probably
Speaker 1: pick something non work related that is actually something interesting
Speaker 1: about you. Like I would think about who are the
Speaker 1: kind of people that you want to connect with in
Speaker 1: your workplace and what are they going to find interesting?
Speaker 1: Like what is going to make your time at this
Speaker 1: company more enjoyable and it would be to find people
Speaker 1: who have a common interest, So what's that common interest?
Speaker 1: So I always answer based on what I want to
Speaker 1: get out of someone potentially seeing, And like, there's so
Speaker 1: many facts I can think about if things that I've
Speaker 1: done that would never come up in the workplace, but
Speaker 1: I would love other people to know that I've done,
Speaker 1: like you know, volunteering opportunities, or I love languages and travel,
Speaker 1: so I'd want to find other people who love that.
Speaker 1: Or I'd want to find people in the company who
Speaker 1: if they thought about an international travel opportunity, they went, oh, well,
Speaker 1: she mentioned that she speaks other languages, like that kind
Speaker 1: of thing.
Speaker 2: Smart, Oh my god. So you can use it as
Speaker 2: a strategy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and not too convoluted. But I think people are
Speaker 1: going to read it anyway, so.
Speaker 2: Much better than like my colleagues going, there's that girl
Speaker 2: who loves those dogs. She loves her dogs so much,
Speaker 2: she's got two of them.
Speaker 1: I love dogs, unless you want to meet other dog lovers,
Speaker 1: in which case it was the perfect answer. But I
Speaker 1: think it can be a wasted opportunity to say something
Speaker 1: interesting about yourself. Don't waste it, because that's probably the
Speaker 1: only time the whole company will get to hear from you,
Speaker 1: so say something interesting, be memorable.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for helping us clear the biz Inbox.
Speaker 2: If you have a work question, please send it our way.
Speaker 2: You will find a link to submit your questions in
Speaker 2: the show notes. You can tell us your name or
Speaker 2: you can remain completely anonymous. It is your choice.
Speaker 1: And if you missed any of our episodes, just scroll
Speaker 1: back in your feed. We'll be back in the biz
Speaker 1: Inbox next week.
Speaker 2: Bye bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land
Speaker 2: and waters that this podcast is recorded on