1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:15,294 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:15,334 --> 00:00:18,174 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:18,214 --> 00:00:18,974 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:19,374 --> 00:00:19,534 Speaker 2: Hi. 5 00:00:19,694 --> 00:00:22,894 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Muma MIA's daily news podcast, 6 00:00:22,934 --> 00:00:26,414 Speaker 1: The Quickie. Just a warning. This episode deals with a 7 00:00:26,494 --> 00:00:29,414 Speaker 1: rape case that is currently underway in France. It includes 8 00:00:29,454 --> 00:00:32,694 Speaker 1: descriptions of sexual assault. If this is a tough topic 9 00:00:32,734 --> 00:00:38,654 Speaker 1: for you, please take care when listening. In September twenty twenty, 10 00:00:38,934 --> 00:00:41,814 Speaker 1: a man was caught secretly filming under women's skirts at 11 00:00:41,814 --> 00:00:45,454 Speaker 1: a shopping center in France. What police would discover after 12 00:00:45,494 --> 00:00:48,774 Speaker 1: his arrest would lead to a rape trial involving another 13 00:00:48,894 --> 00:00:52,494 Speaker 1: fifty men. Today will delve into the case of Dominic 14 00:00:52,534 --> 00:00:56,134 Speaker 1: Pelicot and the man he recruited into his sick, twisted world. 15 00:00:56,814 --> 00:00:59,454 Speaker 1: But first, here's the letters from the Quickie newsroom. Tuesday, 16 00:00:59,454 --> 00:01:02,734 Speaker 1: September ten, The Princess of Wales has released a video 17 00:01:02,894 --> 00:01:04,454 Speaker 1: revealing she's finished chemo. 18 00:01:04,774 --> 00:01:07,134 Speaker 2: Doing what I can to stay councer free is now 19 00:01:07,174 --> 00:01:13,054 Speaker 2: my focus. Although I have finished chemotherapy, my path to 20 00:01:13,134 --> 00:01:17,014 Speaker 2: healing and full recovery is long and I must continue 21 00:01:17,054 --> 00:01:21,014 Speaker 2: to take each day as it comes. I am however, 22 00:01:21,094 --> 00:01:24,294 Speaker 2: looking forward to being back at work and undertaking a 23 00:01:24,334 --> 00:01:27,014 Speaker 2: few more public engagements in the coming months when I can. 24 00:01:27,174 --> 00:01:30,334 Speaker 1: Catherine will undertake a reduced program of engagements in the 25 00:01:30,414 --> 00:01:33,654 Speaker 1: next few months as she slowly returns to royal duties 26 00:01:33,734 --> 00:01:36,174 Speaker 1: more than a year after she announced she'd been diagnosed 27 00:01:36,214 --> 00:01:39,694 Speaker 1: with cancer and was undergoing treatment. The video shows Catherine 28 00:01:39,694 --> 00:01:42,294 Speaker 1: William and their three children out in the countryside and 29 00:01:42,374 --> 00:01:45,614 Speaker 1: on the beach, smiling and enjoying each other's company as 30 00:01:45,654 --> 00:01:48,454 Speaker 1: she explains how difficult the past year has been and 31 00:01:48,494 --> 00:01:50,734 Speaker 1: how the cancer journey can be scary, but that there 32 00:01:50,734 --> 00:01:54,214 Speaker 1: can be light too, encouraging everyone fighting the disease to 33 00:01:54,294 --> 00:01:54,974 Speaker 1: shine together. 34 00:01:55,414 --> 00:01:56,094 Speaker 2: The man who. 35 00:01:55,974 --> 00:01:59,374 Speaker 1: Allegedly deliberately threw scolding hot coffee over a baby in 36 00:01:59,414 --> 00:02:03,294 Speaker 1: a Brisbane park has fled the country, authorities reportedly missing 37 00:02:03,374 --> 00:02:06,414 Speaker 1: him by just twelve hours. The thirty three year old man, 38 00:02:06,454 --> 00:02:09,934 Speaker 1: a foreign national, is a regular traveler to Australia, spending 39 00:02:09,974 --> 00:02:13,174 Speaker 1: time across New South Wales and Victoria as an itinerant worker. 40 00:02:13,494 --> 00:02:16,494 Speaker 1: Authorities didn't reveal his name or the country he fled to, 41 00:02:16,974 --> 00:02:20,734 Speaker 1: concerned it may jeopardize the investigation. It's believed he drove 42 00:02:20,774 --> 00:02:23,214 Speaker 1: from Brisbane to Sydney and then flew out of Sydney 43 00:02:23,254 --> 00:02:26,694 Speaker 1: Airport using his own passport on August thirty one. Police 44 00:02:26,774 --> 00:02:30,574 Speaker 1: identified him on September first. The baby's mother says she's 45 00:02:30,614 --> 00:02:33,334 Speaker 1: lived in a state of stress and anxiety since the attack, 46 00:02:33,614 --> 00:02:35,334 Speaker 1: and while she is relieved to know the man is 47 00:02:35,374 --> 00:02:37,934 Speaker 1: no longer in the country and can't hurt them, she 48 00:02:38,054 --> 00:02:41,414 Speaker 1: continues to feel anxious about being in public and believes 49 00:02:41,414 --> 00:02:43,694 Speaker 1: her mental health has been impacted by this for the 50 00:02:43,694 --> 00:02:46,214 Speaker 1: rest of her life, as the scars and treatment for 51 00:02:46,254 --> 00:02:48,414 Speaker 1: her son will impact him for the rest of his 52 00:02:49,494 --> 00:02:52,534 Speaker 1: The driver of the bus which crashed, killing ten wedding 53 00:02:52,574 --> 00:02:54,774 Speaker 1: guests and injuring many others in the New South Wales, 54 00:02:54,814 --> 00:02:57,494 Speaker 1: Hunter Valley, has had his request to hear the victim 55 00:02:57,534 --> 00:03:01,174 Speaker 1: impact statements via link from jail denied. Fifty nine year 56 00:03:01,214 --> 00:03:03,974 Speaker 1: old Brett Button is awaiting sentencing over the June twenty 57 00:03:04,014 --> 00:03:06,854 Speaker 1: twenty three crash and has been forced to listen first 58 00:03:06,894 --> 00:03:09,294 Speaker 1: hand to the ways in which he irrevocably changed the 59 00:03:09,374 --> 00:03:12,174 Speaker 1: line of those involved in the incident. During the three 60 00:03:12,214 --> 00:03:15,894 Speaker 1: day sentencing hearing, Graham McBride described how he woke up 61 00:03:15,934 --> 00:03:18,334 Speaker 1: five days after the crash to find out he had 62 00:03:18,334 --> 00:03:21,374 Speaker 1: a broken neck, fractured ribs and arm, and cuts over 63 00:03:21,414 --> 00:03:24,094 Speaker 1: his body, but that those around him had hesitated to 64 00:03:24,134 --> 00:03:26,854 Speaker 1: answer how his wife and daughter were going, not wanting 65 00:03:26,854 --> 00:03:29,854 Speaker 1: to compound his pain in telling him that they hadn't survived. 66 00:03:30,174 --> 00:03:33,214 Speaker 1: He explained that he discharged himself from hospital after just 67 00:03:33,294 --> 00:03:35,774 Speaker 1: fifteen days so that he could go home and lay 68 00:03:35,774 --> 00:03:38,014 Speaker 1: in the bed he once shared with his wife. The 69 00:03:38,054 --> 00:03:40,814 Speaker 1: bus crashed in foggy conditions and at high speed while 70 00:03:40,814 --> 00:03:43,934 Speaker 1: attempting to turn onto a roundabout, the vehicle tipping over 71 00:03:44,014 --> 00:03:46,974 Speaker 1: and sliding. Button admitted he'd taken a large dose of 72 00:03:47,014 --> 00:03:49,974 Speaker 1: painkillers and was trying to encourage a party atmosphere on 73 00:03:50,014 --> 00:03:53,134 Speaker 1: the bus as he took the corners too fast. The 74 00:03:53,174 --> 00:03:55,934 Speaker 1: Prime Minister is set to announce new legislation today that 75 00:03:56,014 --> 00:03:59,054 Speaker 1: will enforce a minimum age for access to social media. 76 00:03:59,454 --> 00:04:02,814 Speaker 1: Anthony Albnizi says technology moves fast and it would be 77 00:04:02,854 --> 00:04:06,174 Speaker 1: difficult for the government to protect every child from every threat, 78 00:04:06,454 --> 00:04:09,574 Speaker 1: but something has to be done. The legislation draws on 79 00:04:09,574 --> 00:04:12,494 Speaker 1: a report by former High Court Chief Justice Robert French, 80 00:04:12,654 --> 00:04:15,214 Speaker 1: which aims to ban children under the age of fourteen 81 00:04:15,254 --> 00:04:19,014 Speaker 1: from social media and requires companies to gain parental consent 82 00:04:19,174 --> 00:04:22,054 Speaker 1: for fourteen and fifteen year olds to use their platforms. 83 00:04:22,294 --> 00:04:25,174 Speaker 1: The announcement comes as new research from the Australian National 84 00:04:25,294 --> 00:04:29,574 Speaker 1: University shows regular social media use is negatively impacting the 85 00:04:29,614 --> 00:04:33,054 Speaker 1: life satisfaction of high school aged children. The lead researcher 86 00:04:33,094 --> 00:04:36,534 Speaker 1: saying data shows that many challenges impact teenagers' lives, but 87 00:04:36,574 --> 00:04:39,534 Speaker 1: the use of social media platforms often makes it worse. 88 00:04:39,894 --> 00:04:41,534 Speaker 1: That's what's happening around the world today. 89 00:04:41,574 --> 00:04:41,854 Speaker 2: Next. 90 00:04:41,974 --> 00:04:45,254 Speaker 1: What Dominic Pellicott's wife discovered after his arrest in twenty 91 00:04:45,334 --> 00:04:48,814 Speaker 1: twenty upended her life and her fifty year marriage and 92 00:04:48,894 --> 00:04:51,414 Speaker 1: led to the allegation that she's been the victim of 93 00:04:51,574 --> 00:05:06,974 Speaker 1: systemic sexual assaults of which she has no memory. For 94 00:05:07,014 --> 00:05:10,614 Speaker 1: many years, Giselle was struggling with her health health. She'd 95 00:05:10,654 --> 00:05:14,014 Speaker 1: been losing hair, losing weight, and her memory was failing. 96 00:05:15,014 --> 00:05:17,934 Speaker 1: She'd sometimes feel like whole days would pass of which 97 00:05:17,934 --> 00:05:21,054 Speaker 1: she would have little to no recollection. Her friends and 98 00:05:21,134 --> 00:05:23,694 Speaker 1: her children became concerned that she may be suffering from 99 00:05:23,734 --> 00:05:26,894 Speaker 1: Alzheimer's after seeing her sit for hours in what seemed 100 00:05:26,934 --> 00:05:30,294 Speaker 1: like a trance. But all of these health conditions would 101 00:05:30,294 --> 00:05:34,054 Speaker 1: come into razor sharp focus after her husband was arrested 102 00:05:34,094 --> 00:05:36,614 Speaker 1: in a local shopping center near where they lived in France. 103 00:05:38,774 --> 00:05:41,574 Speaker 1: It was twenty twenty and Dominic Pelicot had been caught 104 00:05:41,614 --> 00:05:45,614 Speaker 1: filming up women's skirts. When police searched his computer, they 105 00:05:45,694 --> 00:05:50,494 Speaker 1: made a shocking discovery hundreds of photos and videos showing 106 00:05:50,494 --> 00:05:56,494 Speaker 1: his unconscious wife being sexually assaulted by numerous men. Investigators 107 00:05:56,534 --> 00:06:00,694 Speaker 1: also found online chatlocks where Dominic had recruited strangers to 108 00:06:00,774 --> 00:06:04,214 Speaker 1: come to his home and have sex with his sedated wife. 109 00:06:04,254 --> 00:06:08,134 Speaker 1: He allegedly gave explicit instructions to avoid wearing cologne or 110 00:06:08,174 --> 00:06:11,534 Speaker 1: smelling of cigarettes, and to leave immediately if she showed 111 00:06:11,534 --> 00:06:15,614 Speaker 1: any signs of waking. Gizelle, now in her seventies, had 112 00:06:15,654 --> 00:06:19,414 Speaker 1: no memory or knowledge of the assaults. That was until 113 00:06:19,454 --> 00:06:23,574 Speaker 1: police told her. For years she'd experience these unexplained health 114 00:06:23,614 --> 00:06:27,294 Speaker 1: issues and memory loss. In reality, she was being repeatedly 115 00:06:27,454 --> 00:06:31,454 Speaker 1: drugged and assaulted. Prosecutors say Dominic began these assaults on 116 00:06:31,494 --> 00:06:34,054 Speaker 1: his wife all the way back in twenty eleven, when 117 00:06:34,094 --> 00:06:37,614 Speaker 1: they lived near Paris. The abuse continued after they moved 118 00:06:37,654 --> 00:06:41,654 Speaker 1: to Masign in Provence in twenty thirteen. Dominic allegedly crushing 119 00:06:41,694 --> 00:06:45,694 Speaker 1: up powerful tranquilizers and anti anxiety medications and putting it 120 00:06:45,734 --> 00:06:49,214 Speaker 1: into Jizelle's food and wine. Medical experts who examined the 121 00:06:49,214 --> 00:06:52,454 Speaker 1: evidence said her level of sedation was closer to a 122 00:06:52,534 --> 00:06:56,094 Speaker 1: coma than it was to sleep. Dominic would then invite 123 00:06:56,134 --> 00:06:58,614 Speaker 1: men he met through those online forums to come to 124 00:06:58,654 --> 00:07:01,854 Speaker 1: their home and assault his unconscious wife. He would also 125 00:07:01,974 --> 00:07:05,134 Speaker 1: participate in and film many of the rapes himself. The 126 00:07:05,214 --> 00:07:08,614 Speaker 1: videos show him using degrading language to encourage the others. 127 00:07:09,654 --> 00:07:11,854 Speaker 1: Fifty of those men have been tracked down and are 128 00:07:11,894 --> 00:07:14,574 Speaker 1: on trial with the accused, but the other twenty one 129 00:07:14,774 --> 00:07:18,414 Speaker 1: are yet to be identified. From the footage, Giselle says 130 00:07:18,614 --> 00:07:21,254 Speaker 1: she recognized just one of them, a man who had 131 00:07:21,294 --> 00:07:23,614 Speaker 1: come to their home to discuss cycling with her husband. 132 00:07:24,134 --> 00:07:26,734 Speaker 1: She would regularly say hello to him at their local bakery. 133 00:07:27,214 --> 00:07:29,054 Speaker 1: Never did she think that he would come to her 134 00:07:29,054 --> 00:07:33,214 Speaker 1: home and allegedly rape her. No money ever changed hands. 135 00:07:33,534 --> 00:07:36,574 Speaker 1: The other participants claim they believed that they were engaging 136 00:07:36,654 --> 00:07:41,934 Speaker 1: inconsensual activities with a libertine couple. However, Dominic reportedly told 137 00:07:41,974 --> 00:07:44,814 Speaker 1: investigators that all the men were aware that his wife 138 00:07:44,814 --> 00:07:48,174 Speaker 1: had been drugged without her knowledge. None of them were 139 00:07:48,214 --> 00:07:51,494 Speaker 1: asked to wear a condong while allegedly raping Giselle. She 140 00:07:51,614 --> 00:07:56,414 Speaker 1: contracted four sexually transmitted infections as a result. The victim survivor, 141 00:07:56,534 --> 00:07:59,694 Speaker 1: who is now divorcing Dominique, made the brave decision to 142 00:07:59,774 --> 00:08:03,614 Speaker 1: request a public trial. Her lawyer stated she wants to 143 00:08:03,694 --> 00:08:07,174 Speaker 1: raise awareness as widely as possible of what happened to her, 144 00:08:07,374 --> 00:08:12,454 Speaker 1: so that events like this never happen again. The case 145 00:08:12,534 --> 00:08:16,294 Speaker 1: has sparked national outrage in France and raised serious questions 146 00:08:16,334 --> 00:08:20,454 Speaker 1: about consent, predatory behavior, and how such extensive abuse could 147 00:08:20,494 --> 00:08:24,174 Speaker 1: have gone undetected for so long. Some lawmakers hope it 148 00:08:24,174 --> 00:08:26,814 Speaker 1: will lead to changes in how French law defines rape 149 00:08:26,814 --> 00:08:30,854 Speaker 1: and consent. The trial has also prompted discussions about cultural 150 00:08:30,894 --> 00:08:34,574 Speaker 1: attitudes in France regarding sexual crimes and consent. As one 151 00:08:34,614 --> 00:08:37,254 Speaker 1: French lawmaker told The New York Times, there's a kind 152 00:08:37,254 --> 00:08:40,134 Speaker 1: of naivete on the topic of predators in France, a 153 00:08:40,214 --> 00:08:44,014 Speaker 1: kind of denial. Giselle told the court that despite the 154 00:08:44,054 --> 00:08:46,814 Speaker 1: horror she felt after they showed her disturbing photos of 155 00:08:46,814 --> 00:08:49,974 Speaker 1: herself naked and being abused by men, she credits the 156 00:08:50,014 --> 00:08:53,454 Speaker 1: police with saving her life over ninety minutes of testimony, 157 00:08:53,734 --> 00:08:56,694 Speaker 1: she recalled the photos as scenes of horror, saying they 158 00:08:56,774 --> 00:08:59,734 Speaker 1: treated her like a rag doll. She explained that not 159 00:08:59,854 --> 00:09:03,054 Speaker 1: a single one of these men alerted police, saying even 160 00:09:03,134 --> 00:09:06,174 Speaker 1: one anonymous phone call could have saved her. When the 161 00:09:06,214 --> 00:09:08,774 Speaker 1: defense asked her about whether she and her husband actually 162 00:09:08,814 --> 00:09:11,334 Speaker 1: had an open relafationship and how is it she could 163 00:09:11,334 --> 00:09:14,134 Speaker 1: have not noticed anything after a decade of this occurring, 164 00:09:14,414 --> 00:09:17,934 Speaker 1: she responded swiftly saying, don't talk to me about sex scenes. 165 00:09:18,134 --> 00:09:21,974 Speaker 1: These are rape scenes. She says she was never complicit 166 00:09:22,294 --> 00:09:25,454 Speaker 1: and isn't just pretending to be asleep. She turned to 167 00:09:25,494 --> 00:09:27,734 Speaker 1: the accused in court and said, for once in your lives, 168 00:09:27,774 --> 00:09:32,334 Speaker 1: at least take responsibility for your actions. Gizelle says she 169 00:09:32,414 --> 00:09:34,974 Speaker 1: will never forget the sound that her daughter made when 170 00:09:34,974 --> 00:09:37,574 Speaker 1: she told her she let out a how She said, 171 00:09:37,854 --> 00:09:42,854 Speaker 1: whose sound is still etched on my mind. Gizelle's daughter Caroline, 172 00:09:42,934 --> 00:09:45,974 Speaker 1: described her father as probably one of the worst sexual 173 00:09:46,014 --> 00:09:49,094 Speaker 1: criminals of the past twenty years, telling the court the 174 00:09:49,174 --> 00:09:51,534 Speaker 1: day she found out about her mother's ordeal was like 175 00:09:51,534 --> 00:09:54,494 Speaker 1: a slow descent into hell. Having to call her brothers 176 00:09:54,494 --> 00:09:57,534 Speaker 1: and explain what had happened. She left the court in 177 00:09:57,614 --> 00:09:59,534 Speaker 1: tears on the second day of the trial as the 178 00:09:59,614 --> 00:10:04,174 Speaker 1: judge recounted how naked photo montages of Caroline had also 179 00:10:04,294 --> 00:10:07,294 Speaker 1: been found on her father's computer in a folder called 180 00:10:07,414 --> 00:10:12,454 Speaker 1: around My Daughter Naked. This case has captured the world's 181 00:10:12,454 --> 00:10:16,134 Speaker 1: attention for all the wrong reasons. It's shocking, it's terrifying, 182 00:10:16,334 --> 00:10:18,854 Speaker 1: and it makes us wonder what laws would protect us 183 00:10:18,854 --> 00:10:21,414 Speaker 1: here in Australia if we were to be drugged and assaulted. 184 00:10:22,334 --> 00:10:25,534 Speaker 1: Doctor Brianna Chesser is an Associate Professor of Criminology and 185 00:10:25,694 --> 00:10:29,694 Speaker 1: Justice at r MIT, a clinical forensic psychologist and criminal lawyer. 186 00:10:30,134 --> 00:10:32,694 Speaker 1: Brianna when we see stories like the one coming out 187 00:10:32,694 --> 00:10:35,134 Speaker 1: of France since this trial began last week, it makes 188 00:10:35,214 --> 00:10:37,774 Speaker 1: us wonder what laws are protecting us here in Australia. 189 00:10:38,254 --> 00:10:40,534 Speaker 1: What would that trial look like if it happened here, 190 00:10:40,614 --> 00:10:42,414 Speaker 1: Because what I'm seeing is that it depends on where 191 00:10:42,454 --> 00:10:44,814 Speaker 1: you live, because these kinds of laws are decided on 192 00:10:44,854 --> 00:10:46,014 Speaker 1: a state and territory level. 193 00:10:46,614 --> 00:10:49,174 Speaker 3: Well, in the last five or so years, we've really 194 00:10:49,214 --> 00:10:51,854 Speaker 3: had quite a number of changes to many of a 195 00:10:51,894 --> 00:10:56,174 Speaker 3: state and territories sex offenses legislation, but it's for the 196 00:10:56,214 --> 00:11:00,054 Speaker 3: inclusion of things like stealthing, rape by compelling and the 197 00:11:00,094 --> 00:11:05,214 Speaker 3: administration of an intoxicating substance for a sexual purpose. New 198 00:11:05,294 --> 00:11:09,414 Speaker 3: South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, and South Australia in particular has 199 00:11:09,614 --> 00:11:13,974 Speaker 3: versions of those particular offenses. But there'd be an argument 200 00:11:14,014 --> 00:11:17,214 Speaker 3: that even in the other jurisdictions that don't specifically prohibit 201 00:11:17,814 --> 00:11:21,734 Speaker 3: the administration of an intoxicating substance, what they will have 202 00:11:22,014 --> 00:11:25,614 Speaker 3: is a common law background of really what the definition 203 00:11:25,694 --> 00:11:30,094 Speaker 3: of consent is even at common law, so cases that 204 00:11:30,174 --> 00:11:32,854 Speaker 3: sort have passed down that judges rely on when they're 205 00:11:32,854 --> 00:11:38,614 Speaker 3: making their judgments. Consent is a voluntary, freely willed action 206 00:11:38,974 --> 00:11:41,854 Speaker 3: that is taken by someone who is participating in a 207 00:11:41,894 --> 00:11:43,614 Speaker 3: sexual act. So in this case, it would be the 208 00:11:43,654 --> 00:11:47,294 Speaker 3: wife would have to be voluntarily giving her consent to 209 00:11:47,414 --> 00:11:49,934 Speaker 3: whatever acts were going to be well in this case 210 00:11:49,974 --> 00:11:51,134 Speaker 3: that she was subjected to. 211 00:11:51,854 --> 00:11:54,334 Speaker 1: So to be clear too, because in this case, these 212 00:11:54,374 --> 00:11:57,894 Speaker 1: defendants are saying that, well, the husband gave us the consent, 213 00:11:58,534 --> 00:12:00,654 Speaker 1: even though he's come back and claimed that they knew 214 00:12:00,694 --> 00:12:03,014 Speaker 1: full well that she had been drugged without her permission. 215 00:12:03,454 --> 00:12:07,294 Speaker 1: But in any instance, somebody else can't grant consent for you, 216 00:12:07,334 --> 00:12:07,854 Speaker 1: can They. 217 00:12:08,414 --> 00:12:12,854 Speaker 3: Correct had to have given that consent willingly, freely and 218 00:12:12,934 --> 00:12:16,094 Speaker 3: of herself. Now. I don't quite know what the laws 219 00:12:16,094 --> 00:12:19,414 Speaker 3: in France are like in terms of the sort of marriage, 220 00:12:19,414 --> 00:12:23,054 Speaker 3: but certainly in Australia women are not owned by their husbands. 221 00:12:23,054 --> 00:12:25,254 Speaker 3: Women have the right to consent to any act that 222 00:12:25,294 --> 00:12:27,894 Speaker 3: they freely choose to do so within the marriage or 223 00:12:27,934 --> 00:12:29,934 Speaker 3: externally to the marriage, and neither the husband nor the 224 00:12:29,974 --> 00:12:32,174 Speaker 3: wife can make those decisions on behalf of the other. 225 00:12:32,494 --> 00:12:35,534 Speaker 3: So not really a defense at all in my opinion. 226 00:12:35,934 --> 00:12:39,494 Speaker 1: Brianna, how much are we seeing technology becoming a part 227 00:12:39,694 --> 00:12:42,654 Speaker 1: of sexual assault here in Australia, Because this is something 228 00:12:42,694 --> 00:12:45,814 Speaker 1: that the French community have had to come to terms 229 00:12:45,814 --> 00:12:49,094 Speaker 1: where this is just how much of this was documented 230 00:12:49,214 --> 00:12:52,734 Speaker 1: and shared and how these people were recruited through online forums. 231 00:12:52,774 --> 00:12:56,334 Speaker 1: How much is technology playing a role in sexual assault here? 232 00:12:57,014 --> 00:13:00,814 Speaker 3: Look, I think the rates are absolutely alarming and increasing 233 00:13:01,134 --> 00:13:03,374 Speaker 3: where what we're seeing is that technology is involved in 234 00:13:03,454 --> 00:13:07,934 Speaker 3: every stage of the planning, recruitment, execution of the sexual 235 00:13:07,934 --> 00:13:11,294 Speaker 3: act and then quite often in the case continued torment 236 00:13:11,374 --> 00:13:14,574 Speaker 3: of the victim survivor with the production of pornographic material, 237 00:13:14,654 --> 00:13:17,614 Speaker 3: as was the case with the French trial that we're 238 00:13:17,654 --> 00:13:18,454 Speaker 3: currently watching. 239 00:13:19,094 --> 00:13:21,294 Speaker 1: Do we know what the process is here in Australia, 240 00:13:21,334 --> 00:13:24,254 Speaker 1: because what Giselle says, who's the victim survivor here is 241 00:13:24,294 --> 00:13:28,934 Speaker 1: that police made her look at photos and videos directly 242 00:13:28,934 --> 00:13:31,014 Speaker 1: after informing her that this had happened to her, which 243 00:13:31,014 --> 00:13:35,734 Speaker 1: she found quite traumatizing. Is that normal procedure that a 244 00:13:35,854 --> 00:13:38,614 Speaker 1: victim would be forced to look at the evidence that 245 00:13:38,654 --> 00:13:39,774 Speaker 1: something had happened to them. 246 00:13:40,294 --> 00:13:43,054 Speaker 3: Look, I sort of cringe internally as you're saying this 247 00:13:43,134 --> 00:13:46,174 Speaker 3: to me. My answer will be in two parts. I think. First, 248 00:13:46,254 --> 00:13:49,614 Speaker 3: I'd like to say I would hope not the exposure 249 00:13:49,654 --> 00:13:53,414 Speaker 3: to those sort of crime in that sort of systematic 250 00:13:53,534 --> 00:13:56,734 Speaker 3: way is enough to create traumal in and of itself. 251 00:13:56,774 --> 00:13:58,694 Speaker 3: I think with the case of Giselle, the police would 252 00:13:58,694 --> 00:14:02,494 Speaker 3: have been quite concerned that she didn't have any knowledge 253 00:14:02,974 --> 00:14:06,654 Speaker 3: of being raped almost one hundred times. Now. From an 254 00:14:06,694 --> 00:14:10,534 Speaker 3: investigative perspective, I suspect that they were trying to ascertain 255 00:14:10,854 --> 00:14:13,334 Speaker 3: whether or not that was her in the video, and 256 00:14:13,374 --> 00:14:15,654 Speaker 3: then whether or not she had some sort of repressed 257 00:14:15,734 --> 00:14:18,894 Speaker 3: trauma that may well have been unleashed, if you like, 258 00:14:19,014 --> 00:14:22,974 Speaker 3: by watching the videos. Look, my clinical forensic psychologist's brain 259 00:14:23,014 --> 00:14:25,774 Speaker 3: here is absolutely horrified at the notion of a victim 260 00:14:25,814 --> 00:14:28,094 Speaker 3: survivor being re exposed to this trauma in such a 261 00:14:28,134 --> 00:14:31,214 Speaker 3: callous way. I don't think that this was in her 262 00:14:31,294 --> 00:14:33,814 Speaker 3: best interest. She really needed to come to terms with 263 00:14:33,894 --> 00:14:36,294 Speaker 3: the offending by itself, and perhaps then if she wanted 264 00:14:36,334 --> 00:14:38,614 Speaker 3: to view the material, then that ought to have been 265 00:14:38,654 --> 00:14:40,454 Speaker 3: something at least in my opinion, that she should have 266 00:14:40,454 --> 00:14:41,254 Speaker 3: had control over. 267 00:14:42,014 --> 00:14:46,814 Speaker 1: Something that's really difficult for us to understand is how 268 00:14:46,854 --> 00:14:50,094 Speaker 1: the defense is positioning some of their questioning. And this 269 00:14:50,134 --> 00:14:51,934 Speaker 1: is something that's been brought up many many times where 270 00:14:51,974 --> 00:14:55,494 Speaker 1: it comes to sexual assault survivors in court, and in 271 00:14:55,534 --> 00:14:59,374 Speaker 1: this instance, they're asking her whether she was just pretending 272 00:14:59,414 --> 00:15:01,614 Speaker 1: to be asleep in these videos and what she complicit 273 00:15:01,854 --> 00:15:05,294 Speaker 1: in these sexual encounters, as they're calling them sexual encounters 274 00:15:05,374 --> 00:15:09,654 Speaker 1: rather than a rape. This seems a barrant from from 275 00:15:09,654 --> 00:15:12,774 Speaker 1: our perspective when we think of the seventy old men 276 00:15:12,774 --> 00:15:14,414 Speaker 1: who are involved in this, and the fact that it 277 00:15:14,454 --> 00:15:16,854 Speaker 1: was so clearly documented and that her husband has had 278 00:15:16,894 --> 00:15:20,574 Speaker 1: freely admitted that he did the wrong thing, and yet 279 00:15:20,734 --> 00:15:23,814 Speaker 1: still the defense has to ask those questions. 280 00:15:24,374 --> 00:15:27,254 Speaker 3: Look, I don't think they have to ask those questions. 281 00:15:27,654 --> 00:15:29,974 Speaker 3: I will say that in Australia will have the Uniform 282 00:15:30,014 --> 00:15:32,894 Speaker 3: Evidence Act, and that we have very clear guidelines about 283 00:15:32,934 --> 00:15:35,294 Speaker 3: how complainants as we would call them in a legal 284 00:15:35,334 --> 00:15:38,774 Speaker 3: sense in sex cases are to be questioned and costs examined, 285 00:15:39,214 --> 00:15:41,814 Speaker 3: and certainly I would argue that those types of questions, 286 00:15:41,854 --> 00:15:44,894 Speaker 3: at least in Australia would no longer be permissible. 287 00:15:44,894 --> 00:15:48,254 Speaker 1: Brianna, If this sort of thing were to happen here, 288 00:15:49,094 --> 00:15:52,614 Speaker 1: do you think it would change the way that we 289 00:15:52,694 --> 00:15:57,454 Speaker 1: think about sexual assaults and sexual assault victim survivors the 290 00:15:57,494 --> 00:15:59,734 Speaker 1: same way that it seems to be kind of reframing 291 00:15:59,734 --> 00:16:01,334 Speaker 1: the conversation in France right now. 292 00:16:01,694 --> 00:16:06,934 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think inevitably it would lead to the community 293 00:16:06,934 --> 00:16:09,374 Speaker 3: thinking about whether the laws that we have currently are 294 00:16:09,574 --> 00:16:13,334 Speaker 3: adequate to offer protections. It would have us thinking more 295 00:16:13,414 --> 00:16:16,894 Speaker 3: about the I suppose definition of a victim, if you like, 296 00:16:17,094 --> 00:16:20,214 Speaker 3: in sexual assault cases. Here we have an example of 297 00:16:20,254 --> 00:16:22,894 Speaker 3: a woman who had no knowledge but for the police 298 00:16:22,934 --> 00:16:25,974 Speaker 3: bringing it to her. How do we then assist her 299 00:16:26,014 --> 00:16:29,814 Speaker 3: to recover, to treat her with respect while we're also 300 00:16:29,934 --> 00:16:33,894 Speaker 3: assisting the sort of prosecution of these offenders and the 301 00:16:33,974 --> 00:16:35,694 Speaker 3: very necessary legal trial that has to. 302 00:16:35,654 --> 00:16:41,414 Speaker 1: Happen, the trial of dominic Pelicot, who's admitted to the 303 00:16:41,454 --> 00:16:44,214 Speaker 1: abuse and the recruitment of strangers to assault his wife, 304 00:16:44,494 --> 00:16:47,734 Speaker 1: is expected to last until December twenty If convicted, he 305 00:16:47,814 --> 00:16:50,254 Speaker 1: and the other defendants could face up to twenty years 306 00:16:50,294 --> 00:16:52,974 Speaker 1: behind bars. But this may not even be the end 307 00:16:52,974 --> 00:16:56,654 Speaker 1: of legal troubles for dominic He's also facing separate charges 308 00:16:56,694 --> 00:16:59,534 Speaker 1: for a nineteen ninety one murder and rape, which he denies, 309 00:17:00,014 --> 00:17:02,614 Speaker 1: as well as an attempted rape in nineteen ninety nine 310 00:17:02,774 --> 00:17:05,654 Speaker 1: that he's admitted to after DNA evidence linked him to 311 00:17:05,694 --> 00:17:08,894 Speaker 1: the crime. We'll update you once a verdict is handed down. 312 00:17:10,894 --> 00:17:13,414 Speaker 1: The quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy and our 313 00:17:13,454 --> 00:17:16,734 Speaker 1: senior producer Taylorstrano, with audio production by Tom Lyon.