WEBVTT - Rachel Griffiths Took A Mid Sabbatical From Everything 0:00:09.967 --> 0:00:13.047 So you're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.767 --> 0:00:22.567 that this podcast is recorded on the nineties. I was there, 0:00:22.967 --> 0:00:25.807 so were you. If you're mid and everyone's welcome at 0:00:25.807 --> 0:00:28.167 this chaotic table. So it's not law, but if you 0:00:28.247 --> 0:00:32.127 truly fit the gen X definition, the nineties was likely 0:00:32.287 --> 0:00:36.687 or misspent youth era. I was nineteen to twenty nine. 0:00:36.727 --> 0:00:40.287 In that decade, A lot of things happened for me, 0:00:40.607 --> 0:00:45.607 for the world, for the culture, grunge, britpop lads, friends, 0:00:45.927 --> 0:00:52.287 rave Slackers, Tarantino, Clueless, Titanic, Whitney, Alanis, the Spice Girls. 0:00:52.487 --> 0:00:55.327 I remember watching Thelma and Louise and thinking that feminism 0:00:55.367 --> 0:00:59.687 had triumphed, Things were sorted. I remember swooning over Keanu 0:00:59.807 --> 0:01:03.687 saving Sandra from a speeding bus, being unperturbed by Gwyneth's 0:01:03.727 --> 0:01:06.927 head in a box in seven, seeing Cameron Diaz her 0:01:06.927 --> 0:01:10.527 hair sky highwood sperm in the sub about Mary and 0:01:10.687 --> 0:01:14.287 not thinking that was a gross humiliation. I had a 0:01:14.327 --> 0:01:17.567 lot of adventures in the nineties, A lot of misadventures too. 0:01:18.007 --> 0:01:20.047 I fell in love a couple of times, I got 0:01:20.047 --> 0:01:23.487 my heart broken, I broke a couple myself, I made 0:01:23.527 --> 0:01:27.687 some complicated decisions, I traveled across the world, like all 0:01:27.687 --> 0:01:30.207 of our twenties. Perhaps it was the best of times, 0:01:30.447 --> 0:01:33.127 it was the worst of times, but it was a 0:01:33.247 --> 0:01:37.607 time I remember watching Muriel's Wedding. It was the same 0:01:37.687 --> 0:01:40.007 year that I saw Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, a 0:01:40.047 --> 0:01:42.367 couple of years after I saw a Strictly Ballroom and 0:01:42.487 --> 0:01:46.607 Romper Stomper. Why was a Mancunion living in London watching 0:01:46.647 --> 0:01:49.247 movies made on the opposite side of the planet. Well, 0:01:49.287 --> 0:01:52.167 it was my job. My first proper magazine job was 0:01:52.207 --> 0:01:54.807 for a publication for Ossie's and Kiwi's, living and working 0:01:54.847 --> 0:01:58.167 in London, and I suppose that working there started the 0:01:58.167 --> 0:02:00.807 rest of my life, not that I knew that at 0:02:00.847 --> 0:02:03.967 the time. What I did, though, is that these movies 0:02:03.967 --> 0:02:08.007 were incredible, and everybody everywhere watched them, washing up from 0:02:08.007 --> 0:02:12.047 a sea of cool girls, crazy pixie dream girls. Muriel's 0:02:12.087 --> 0:02:14.847 Wedding was about the traps set for women, and it 0:02:14.887 --> 0:02:18.247 had abba, but it also had spiky, dark edges and 0:02:18.327 --> 0:02:22.447 tragic undertones, sometimes lost among the memories of the catchphrases 0:02:22.487 --> 0:02:25.927 and the bad dancing. A bit like the nineties in general, Really, 0:02:26.767 --> 0:02:30.287 the boundaries of our eras are only really clear in hindsight, 0:02:30.527 --> 0:02:33.287 no matter how much we might want to declare our 0:02:33.327 --> 0:02:37.207 current status. I'm in my mid era. Obviously it's complicated 0:02:37.207 --> 0:02:40.527 and confusing here, but it's also full of glorious relief 0:02:40.647 --> 0:02:43.487 and regrowth, a little bit like a midlife bush that 0:02:43.527 --> 0:02:46.527 hasn't been lost to laser. But did I know when 0:02:46.567 --> 0:02:49.647 all the other eras stopped and started? And did I 0:02:49.727 --> 0:02:52.047 know when I was in them just how much change 0:02:52.087 --> 0:02:55.247 was going to come? Of course not. But how do 0:02:55.327 --> 0:02:58.167 you view your eras from the distance of mid Are 0:02:58.207 --> 0:03:02.607 you compassionate to that version of you scathing, angry at 0:03:02.647 --> 0:03:04.567 what she had to put up with? Do you wish 0:03:04.647 --> 0:03:07.767 she'd done more or less about more or less? Do 0:03:07.807 --> 0:03:11.527 you miss her? Do you smile about that nineties version 0:03:11.527 --> 0:03:14.967 of you who thought she was free sexually professionally, but 0:03:15.087 --> 0:03:18.487 really was dodging errant hands and mouths, being talked and 0:03:18.527 --> 0:03:21.887 passed over, being ranked and rated, always having to prove 0:03:21.967 --> 0:03:24.407 that yes you could take a joke, Yes you could 0:03:24.407 --> 0:03:27.247 put your pesky feminine parts aside to work like a man, 0:03:27.367 --> 0:03:30.767 drink like a man, and have sex like a man. Yeah. Look, 0:03:31.087 --> 0:03:33.687 it was a weird era, and here we are looking 0:03:33.727 --> 0:03:34.207 back at it. 0:03:36.807 --> 0:03:37.127 Hello. 0:03:37.447 --> 0:03:41.567 I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid, midlife, midfamily, 0:03:41.767 --> 0:03:44.887 mid panic about the world. Really, the thing that I 0:03:44.967 --> 0:03:48.887 love most about making this show Mid is conversations for 0:03:48.967 --> 0:03:51.967 Generation X women who are anything. But is that I've 0:03:52.047 --> 0:03:54.607 never had a boring conversation with a woman who comes 0:03:54.647 --> 0:03:57.647 to sit at this table. Mid women might be many things, 0:03:57.807 --> 0:04:01.567 but we are not boring. Rachel Griffiths wouldn't know boring 0:04:01.607 --> 0:04:03.847 if it pooed on a lap. I don't think I 0:04:03.887 --> 0:04:05.887 need to introduce her, but if I do, there was 0:04:05.927 --> 0:04:09.407 a clue in my intro. Muriel's wedding gave Melbournie in 0:04:09.487 --> 0:04:13.247 Rachel's career what she calls a fast start, and she 0:04:13.327 --> 0:04:16.647 has lived plenty of eras since then. She was deep 0:04:16.687 --> 0:04:19.727 inside the Hollywood machine for a while, in big movies 0:04:19.767 --> 0:04:23.127 and bigger TV shows, getting an Oscar nomination for Hillary 0:04:23.127 --> 0:04:26.127 and Jackie, winning a Golden Globe for Six Feet Under, 0:04:26.407 --> 0:04:29.807 and many times nominated in the Beloved Brothers and Sisters. 0:04:30.087 --> 0:04:32.407 So there was that, and then there was her moving 0:04:32.487 --> 0:04:35.527 back home era with her two small babies, her activist 0:04:35.607 --> 0:04:37.847 era that may have never ended, although she does have 0:04:37.927 --> 0:04:41.127 quite a different take on it now and her creator era. 0:04:41.607 --> 0:04:46.247 She imagined, produced and hustled into being the iconic Australian 0:04:46.287 --> 0:04:49.247 movie Ride Like a Girl, which she directed, and she 0:04:49.367 --> 0:04:53.767 co created the incredible ABCTV series Total Control with Blackfellow Films, 0:04:53.927 --> 0:04:57.167 which ran for three seasons until just last year and 0:04:57.447 --> 0:05:00.807 entirely changed the way she saw power and politics. I 0:05:00.847 --> 0:05:03.167 wanted to talk to Rachel about being a gen x 0:05:03.367 --> 0:05:06.407 icon of sorts, blasting into our consciousness in the middle 0:05:06.407 --> 0:05:08.927 of the nineties and then rising up alongside the women 0:05:08.927 --> 0:05:12.287 when now or seeing having what's being termed comebacks. She 0:05:12.407 --> 0:05:15.527 says she never felt like a fuckable ngenou and that 0:05:15.647 --> 0:05:18.087 which pissed her off at times in her career may 0:05:18.127 --> 0:05:21.647 have served her well as she's grown right up. But 0:05:21.687 --> 0:05:23.887 we ended up talking about a lot more of non 0:05:23.967 --> 0:05:26.647 boring other stuff, her long marriage and how it's in 0:05:26.687 --> 0:05:32.287 its Woodya era, her ADHDAF diagnosis, and maybe why the 0:05:32.327 --> 0:05:35.247 eighties and nineties were the worst years for women in Hollywood, 0:05:35.727 --> 0:05:39.687 and how we stay optimistic while the world's well, you know, 0:05:39.727 --> 0:05:42.567 what the world's doing, And of course we talk about 0:05:42.567 --> 0:05:44.687 the TV show Madam, which is on nine right now, 0:05:44.727 --> 0:05:46.887 and why she finally said yes to playing a madam, 0:05:46.967 --> 0:05:50.527 a role that she's been offered many times before. Rachel 0:05:50.567 --> 0:05:54.087 Griffiths is bloody great. Enjoy this, Oh, and hang around 0:05:54.087 --> 0:05:56.567 at the end, friends, because I have some exciting news 0:05:56.567 --> 0:06:01.727 about a holiday, not mine, yours. Rachel Griffiths, do you 0:06:01.927 --> 0:06:04.447 like being Mid? How do you feel about the gen 0:06:04.687 --> 0:06:07.407 X middle? Because I feel like there's that we're supposed 0:06:07.407 --> 0:06:10.527 to sit into binary camps. Either I'm in my power 0:06:10.607 --> 0:06:13.887 I've never felt more myself or what fresh hell is this? 0:06:14.647 --> 0:06:15.447 Where do you say? 0:06:16.447 --> 0:06:20.607 I feel so different now that two of my three 0:06:21.327 --> 0:06:24.607 through school. So I think the answer i'd give you 0:06:24.647 --> 0:06:28.727 today might be a little different from two years ago, 0:06:28.887 --> 0:06:33.727 and something that the load, not that you stop parenting 0:06:33.767 --> 0:06:37.887 when they finished school in are eighteen, but the sense 0:06:38.007 --> 0:06:41.847 of getting them, you know, to the end is of 0:06:41.887 --> 0:06:47.807 that process and helping them navigate the roller coaster of 0:06:47.927 --> 0:06:54.207 teenage issues, especially with COVID. It was just a lot, 0:06:54.527 --> 0:06:58.367 you know, Like I think like twenty twenty was probably 0:06:58.407 --> 0:07:04.927 my peak hell, Mid and I had, you know, we 0:07:04.967 --> 0:07:09.727 had aging parents who weren't doing well, my husband's father 0:07:09.927 --> 0:07:14.207 and nursing Karen. We're being locked out of being able 0:07:14.247 --> 0:07:18.127 to see him, so kind of feeling like you're failing 0:07:18.687 --> 0:07:22.767 your parents. You've kind of failing your kids because who 0:07:22.847 --> 0:07:28.127 was equipped, particularly in Melbourne to help them, you know, 0:07:28.327 --> 0:07:31.407 wake up, not get rest, eat something, and then go 0:07:31.447 --> 0:07:34.927 on a zoom for eight hours. And I think that 0:07:35.127 --> 0:07:38.487 was just a real hell. In one way, sometimes it 0:07:38.927 --> 0:07:43.807 family time became less, you know, less busy, less stressed. 0:07:43.887 --> 0:07:48.967 But it just felt so new to navigate. And then 0:07:49.007 --> 0:07:52.327 you're going through your you know, your PERI beenopausal, you're 0:07:52.407 --> 0:07:56.127 not exercising, you're stacking on the way, you know, you're 0:07:56.127 --> 0:07:58.447 trying not to talk about that in a house. You know, 0:07:58.527 --> 0:08:03.847 it's sensitive teenage daughters who you know, whose relationship to 0:08:04.447 --> 0:08:07.087 their bodies and the world and food have also changed 0:08:07.127 --> 0:08:10.447 because they're not playing sport. And it was just it 0:08:10.487 --> 0:08:15.207 really was a really really bizarre time. And to be so, 0:08:15.967 --> 0:08:18.847 you know, I didn't get many opportunities, if any, to 0:08:18.887 --> 0:08:22.007 be fabulous, and I think like I sloth around with 0:08:22.087 --> 0:08:25.607 you know, unwashed hair and egg on me, but every 0:08:25.647 --> 0:08:28.127 now and then the full team arrive and just remind 0:08:28.167 --> 0:08:30.207 me of just how fabulous I can be. 0:08:31.127 --> 0:08:32.607 And it was twenty twenty. 0:08:32.647 --> 0:08:35.967 There was no there was no fabulousness, and I remember 0:08:36.087 --> 0:08:37.207 I think we were nominated. 0:08:37.207 --> 0:08:39.487 I was nominated for I don't know if. 0:08:39.407 --> 0:08:43.727 It was the Logies or the actors for Total Control. 0:08:43.767 --> 0:08:48.327 And I came down to six o'clock dinner wearing my 0:08:48.567 --> 0:08:55.127 gold LOGI dress in fully heals, and my kids are 0:08:55.167 --> 0:08:56.567 just like the fuck. 0:08:58.087 --> 0:09:00.447 They had not seen this side of you for some time. 0:09:00.487 --> 0:09:02.407 It was just it was data. 0:09:02.887 --> 0:09:05.247 It was like I never understood data and the whole 0:09:05.287 --> 0:09:08.167 movement of the crazy art that was made after World 0:09:08.207 --> 0:09:10.447 War One and the pandemic, which we kind of didn't 0:09:10.447 --> 0:09:12.727 add on. All I knew was art from that period 0:09:12.807 --> 0:09:16.167 was crazy and people had like naked painting parties and 0:09:16.607 --> 0:09:19.447 you know, you go to costume balls look at you know, 0:09:19.527 --> 0:09:23.127 in these crazy costumes and nothing was too wild. 0:09:23.167 --> 0:09:25.567 And that's kind of like I was like, oh, I 0:09:25.647 --> 0:09:26.047 get it. 0:09:26.087 --> 0:09:28.127 I get it because I think after this we're all 0:09:28.167 --> 0:09:33.447 going data. We are, so I'm going dada. My middle, 0:09:33.567 --> 0:09:35.327 My middle is defined by data. 0:09:35.447 --> 0:09:38.727 Did you feel like coming out of that? And I 0:09:38.767 --> 0:09:41.287 know it's like some people don't like the term that 0:09:41.327 --> 0:09:44.207 we came out of COVID at all, but like it was. 0:09:44.127 --> 0:09:46.807 It was in moment, was a whole We came you 0:09:46.887 --> 0:09:50.607 all some faster than others, some faster than they were 0:09:50.687 --> 0:09:51.607 legally allowed to do. 0:09:51.727 --> 0:09:53.967 But you know, looking back, I can't blame them for 0:09:54.127 --> 0:09:56.047 just going. I can't beat this hole any longer. 0:09:56.687 --> 0:09:59.527 And teenagers are meant to be out there in the world, 0:09:59.607 --> 0:10:03.607 causing trouble, experimenting, pushing boundaries, and they were all forced 0:10:03.647 --> 0:10:06.567 to do that in their bedrooms. But coming out of that, 0:10:06.847 --> 0:10:09.167 and at the same time as your kids moving into 0:10:09.247 --> 0:10:12.047 that new phase of independence, did you feel a big 0:10:12.087 --> 0:10:14.647 release and a big like, Okay, now I can settle 0:10:14.687 --> 0:10:16.127 into the next act, whatever that is. 0:10:16.407 --> 0:10:21.847 Yeah. No, we made a decision, my husband and I 0:10:21.967 --> 0:10:24.047 to kind of take long service leave. I was the 0:10:24.127 --> 0:10:27.807 daughter of a teacher, so this magical long service leave 0:10:27.927 --> 0:10:31.767 was it was. It did exist on the horizon of 0:10:32.007 --> 0:10:35.607 you know, my mother's imagination. It's like, no, I can't retire, 0:10:35.687 --> 0:10:38.367 I've got four more only four more years to long 0:10:38.407 --> 0:10:41.647 service leave. And it was just it really was the 0:10:41.727 --> 0:10:44.567 gold at the end of the rainbow that they would 0:10:44.647 --> 0:10:47.727 dream of. So I think coming out of COVID, I 0:10:47.727 --> 0:10:51.407 thought I need to take long service leave. And twenty 0:10:51.447 --> 0:10:53.967 twenty one and I'd worked quite a lot. 0:10:54.327 --> 0:10:58.087 Yeah, well you've been working, You've been working very solidly 0:10:58.287 --> 0:10:58.927 for a lot. 0:10:59.487 --> 0:11:01.967 I'd given it a hard I. 0:11:01.927 --> 0:11:03.567 Listened to the interview you did for No Filter with 0:11:03.607 --> 0:11:06.047 Me of Friedman just when Ride Like a Girl was 0:11:06.087 --> 0:11:09.247 coming out, and that was like twenty seventeen eight. 0:11:09.767 --> 0:11:12.407 It was twenty nineteen, yes, so just before. 0:11:13.007 --> 0:11:15.527 And you sounded in that like it's a great interview, 0:11:15.607 --> 0:11:19.047 is fascinating, but you had obviously been pouring every bit 0:11:19.087 --> 0:11:22.007 of your heart and soul into making that movie happen, 0:11:22.087 --> 0:11:26.127 from conception to release to promotion and then total control again, 0:11:26.247 --> 0:11:28.167 is your your project? I mean, I know with Black 0:11:28.207 --> 0:11:29.007 Fellow Films. 0:11:28.887 --> 0:11:31.847 Yeah, co created that was also I was making that 0:11:31.927 --> 0:11:35.087 in two thousand and I know it's coming out in 0:11:35.087 --> 0:11:36.607 twenty nineteen as well. 0:11:36.767 --> 0:11:39.007 So that's pedal to the metal. And you were kind 0:11:39.047 --> 0:11:42.087 of sounded in the interview with Mia as if you know, 0:11:42.567 --> 0:11:45.647 you knew that you'd kind of been hadn't been around 0:11:45.727 --> 0:11:47.727 that much for family life, and you'd been feeling that 0:11:47.887 --> 0:11:49.367 and you were you know, do. 0:11:49.407 --> 0:11:53.967 You I brought COVID on myself. I brought a global pandemic. 0:11:56.567 --> 0:11:59.967 How about you stay home? It didn't quite turn out 0:12:00.047 --> 0:12:03.007 like that because I was attached to projects, you know, 0:12:03.047 --> 0:12:07.407 where my attachment was kind of critical to finance and 0:12:07.447 --> 0:12:10.607 for me to pull out of them may mean that 0:12:10.847 --> 0:12:13.327 crew for that, you know, it was their only job 0:12:13.407 --> 0:12:18.367 in eighteen months. So I was border jumping legally. You know, 0:12:18.367 --> 0:12:22.367 I think we're the last people into South Australia and 0:12:22.527 --> 0:12:25.727 doing I think I did four or five full quarantines. 0:12:27.207 --> 0:12:29.807 I did a full quarantine to get to a family 0:12:29.847 --> 0:12:33.687 member who was in really bad shape. It was yeah, 0:12:33.767 --> 0:12:36.567 So I and the kids had their bags packed after 0:12:36.607 --> 0:12:39.687 we were separated for quite a long time, and I 0:12:39.727 --> 0:12:42.927 had just because my producers were, you know, going through 0:12:42.967 --> 0:12:47.287 the process of getting me exemptions to travel not overseas 0:12:47.327 --> 0:12:49.887 to work. I kind of had an idea of, you know, 0:12:49.967 --> 0:12:52.647 when things were opening or closing, and you know, as 0:12:52.687 --> 0:12:54.847 soon as borders were open for a second that, you know, 0:12:54.887 --> 0:12:57.247 I had the kids on a plane and I got 0:12:57.287 --> 0:13:00.407 my girls out to do two projects and we were 0:13:01.127 --> 0:13:05.647 going between New Southwest and Queensland legally. And I hadn't 0:13:05.647 --> 0:13:08.967 seen my husband and son actually for about five months, 0:13:08.967 --> 0:13:12.567 which was the longest we've ever been apart. And I 0:13:12.687 --> 0:13:18.527 was in Queensland and Melbourne finally opened and so they 0:13:18.527 --> 0:13:21.567 were flying in into the Gold Coast and while we 0:13:21.567 --> 0:13:26.687 were in Queensland. Something that had gone crazy in Queensland. 0:13:26.807 --> 0:13:30.047 So Victoria Victoria said, oh, we're closing the borders to 0:13:30.127 --> 0:13:34.407 Queensland at midnight tonight. So my husband derived with my son. 0:13:35.207 --> 0:13:37.367 I got them on the last flight out of Ballaner 0:13:38.367 --> 0:13:41.527 Troves and we sat there eating chips, hugging. I was 0:13:41.567 --> 0:13:44.247 crying at the airport at Ballaner and I got back 0:13:44.287 --> 0:13:46.687 on the plane. You know, my son was doing Year 0:13:46.687 --> 0:13:50.167 twelve and it was just I was really mad. Anyway, 0:13:50.247 --> 0:13:52.687 last year we took a sabbatical, we took our long 0:13:52.767 --> 0:13:55.527 service leave, and you know, I said to my husband, 0:13:55.607 --> 0:13:58.047 you know, if we don't actually hang out in a 0:13:58.087 --> 0:14:01.167 non transactional way, you know, we'll be those couples as 0:14:01.167 --> 0:14:04.607 soon as the last kid gets their VCE exams. It's 0:14:04.687 --> 0:14:09.047 usually after Christmas, sometime between Christmas, and you know, the 0:14:09.887 --> 0:14:11.767 we're divorcing. So we're just going to look at each 0:14:11.807 --> 0:14:14.407 other and go, do I know you? So we took 0:14:14.447 --> 0:14:17.367 three months. We went to Europe and we had a 0:14:17.447 --> 0:14:19.367 rule that you couldn't say, could you would you? Did 0:14:19.407 --> 0:14:23.247 you have your which really is pretty much However, you 0:14:23.287 --> 0:14:25.487 explain that to me, well, I think when you're in 0:14:25.527 --> 0:14:30.807 the weeds, of kid, you know, three three kids? In 0:14:30.847 --> 0:14:33.527 life is busy. It's just so easy to go. You know, 0:14:33.607 --> 0:14:35.927 could you do this? Did you sign up for parenting? 0:14:36.087 --> 0:14:37.167 Can you cover me? 0:14:37.407 --> 0:14:37.847 Pick up? 0:14:38.687 --> 0:14:43.087 And it's you should have and yeah and well hopefully 0:14:43.167 --> 0:14:45.647 not should have, should have, could have? But could your 0:14:45.647 --> 0:14:48.687 would you? Did you have your not watier? So we 0:14:48.767 --> 0:14:51.567 had to move to a wader. What are your mindset? 0:14:51.727 --> 0:14:54.287 What do you feel like for dinner? And do you 0:14:54.287 --> 0:14:55.927 want to do you want to go for a walk? 0:14:56.687 --> 0:14:57.527 What do you think of? 0:14:58.407 --> 0:14:59.327 And dig you like? 0:15:00.047 --> 0:15:00.087 No? 0:15:00.327 --> 0:15:01.567 I think it was many you know what do you 0:15:01.607 --> 0:15:03.407 think not? Did you like? Yes? 0:15:03.527 --> 0:15:03.567 No? 0:15:03.727 --> 0:15:04.727 But what do you think like? 0:15:04.847 --> 0:15:07.767 More open questions and anyway that we will looking. It 0:15:07.807 --> 0:15:11.087 was a really amazing time. My husband didn't believe we 0:15:11.087 --> 0:15:14.087 were going to We're going, I said to my agents. 0:15:14.207 --> 0:15:18.607 Unless it's White Loadus season three, don't call me. 0:15:19.007 --> 0:15:20.767 Is that the call that everybody's waiting for? 0:15:21.127 --> 0:15:23.647 I think it is, because also we just would have 0:15:23.647 --> 0:15:26.527 done long service in Thailand. 0:15:27.167 --> 0:15:30.607 It would have been fine'll call, but we were literally 0:15:30.607 --> 0:15:31.727 the other way there putting in it. 0:15:31.927 --> 0:15:34.847 And my husband's like, is this we actually we actually 0:15:34.887 --> 0:15:36.087 I said, yeah, we're actually going. 0:15:36.327 --> 0:15:37.207 We're actually. 0:15:38.407 --> 0:15:40.647 It won't be you know, the fool three. I said, 0:15:40.807 --> 0:15:42.847 I know, that's that's what I need. I need long 0:15:42.927 --> 0:15:46.247 service leave. And then I think we were just shy 0:15:46.447 --> 0:15:50.487 that we dragged our fifteen year old and pretended she 0:15:50.567 --> 0:15:53.847 wasn't there. And she goes, when is this effing long 0:15:54.087 --> 0:15:57.967 service sabbatical? She because, when is this sabbatical over? Like, 0:15:58.047 --> 0:16:00.327 I am fifteen, I am not meant to be hanging 0:16:00.327 --> 0:16:01.327 out with my parents. 0:16:01.447 --> 0:16:04.807 I were like enjoying some kind of exactly. 0:16:05.047 --> 0:16:07.807 She was the third wheel on the kind of second honeymoon, 0:16:07.887 --> 0:16:10.367 and we're like, oh, yeah, that's a bit cruel. 0:16:10.847 --> 0:16:11.847 I will ask you. 0:16:12.207 --> 0:16:16.727 That's really funny. I like, after this shortbreak, Rachel Griff's 0:16:16.767 --> 0:16:19.967 and I pay homage to Onon Taylor Swift by discussing eras, 0:16:20.047 --> 0:16:22.167 the ones Rachel has already lived and the one she's 0:16:22.207 --> 0:16:26.127 in now stay with us. I assumed that it was 0:16:26.167 --> 0:16:29.047 relatively successful, this experiment because you are still together, so 0:16:29.087 --> 0:16:32.887 that's it. Yeah, that's true. But in terms of your 0:16:32.927 --> 0:16:35.807 relationship with work, because one of the good things I 0:16:35.847 --> 0:16:38.007 think about being older is you kind of can look 0:16:38.047 --> 0:16:40.887 back on your life as these almost series of eras 0:16:40.887 --> 0:16:41.447 without wanting to. 0:16:41.447 --> 0:16:45.487 Be I'm like oh, i've heard errors. 0:16:45.687 --> 0:16:47.687 Well, you definitely have had eras. And I was thinking 0:16:47.727 --> 0:16:52.447 about how you've been inside the Hollywood machinery, everything from 0:16:52.487 --> 0:16:55.607 nominated to an Academy Award, to winning the Golden Globe, 0:16:55.647 --> 0:16:59.447 to being on the really high profile TV shows. You've 0:16:59.487 --> 0:17:03.687 been inside production directing, you've always been adjacent to politics. 0:17:03.727 --> 0:17:06.487 You've had all You've seen a lot of stuff, And 0:17:06.567 --> 0:17:10.487 I was wondering about your relationship to work. If you've 0:17:10.487 --> 0:17:12.687 had those moments where you go, I've got all the 0:17:12.687 --> 0:17:15.927 things you're supposed to want and it's not what it's 0:17:16.047 --> 0:17:18.407 meant to be, And if that's always been the thing 0:17:18.447 --> 0:17:20.767 that's shifted your gears. 0:17:20.567 --> 0:17:25.487 I think it is interesting how you, you know, reframe 0:17:26.527 --> 0:17:32.367 your experiences and feelings about yourself as you age through 0:17:32.407 --> 0:17:34.647 different lenses. You know, you spend a bit of your 0:17:34.647 --> 0:17:38.127 twenties seeing things through the lens of kind of recovering 0:17:38.567 --> 0:17:42.287 cultural catholic and when you kind of them, you know, 0:17:42.887 --> 0:17:47.687 we're seeing things through third fourth wave feminism, which is 0:17:47.767 --> 0:17:51.167 really helpful for me because feminism was a bit of 0:17:51.207 --> 0:17:54.447 a kind of dirty word. I think, you know, they 0:17:54.487 --> 0:17:56.687 made it dirty for the exes so that we kind 0:17:56.687 --> 0:17:59.367 of give up the cause, and I think we got 0:17:59.487 --> 0:18:02.327 really lazy because we thought it was nasty. Not all 0:18:02.367 --> 0:18:05.487 of us smart girls didn't buy that gas lighting. 0:18:05.567 --> 0:18:07.207 Hey, you loss to you. 0:18:07.727 --> 0:18:11.527 I was one of those dumb girls that internalize that misogyny. 0:18:12.167 --> 0:18:15.687 We're all just like the guys. Now, we're all invited 0:18:15.767 --> 0:18:17.607 to the party, and so we're here. Will I do 0:18:17.687 --> 0:18:19.287 what we're you know exactly? 0:18:19.767 --> 0:18:23.927 And I think I having kids, you you've you know, 0:18:23.967 --> 0:18:26.807 the nature nurture and all of that kind of gets reframed. 0:18:26.847 --> 0:18:32.327 But look, I am adhd as F and I have 0:18:32.567 --> 0:18:37.127 always needed something. That's If I don't have something really 0:18:37.207 --> 0:18:42.527 strong that my imagination is dancing with persistently, you know, 0:18:42.607 --> 0:18:44.767 my brain tends to attack itself and. 0:18:44.767 --> 0:18:45.967 Attack the self. 0:18:46.807 --> 0:18:51.807 I think I became accidentally the actor journey like took 0:18:51.887 --> 0:18:56.567 off faster and higher and more wonderfully than I ever. 0:18:56.487 --> 0:18:59.727 Expected, being in that after Memorial, yeah, after. 0:18:59.607 --> 0:19:02.727 Muriel and getting on these opportunities, and it's you know, 0:19:02.807 --> 0:19:06.767 that's a very three months, you know, Thomas Arty, Thomas Arty. 0:19:07.367 --> 0:19:09.967 You know I read about early Victoria in England or 0:19:10.767 --> 0:19:13.767 but the lead time and the immersion, you know, it 0:19:13.847 --> 0:19:17.207 doesn't fully always satisfy the how long you have been 0:19:17.247 --> 0:19:21.567 thinking about things, and you know, I've thought a lot 0:19:21.607 --> 0:19:25.167 about women and leadership from when I was studying politics, 0:19:25.207 --> 0:19:29.567 and you know, total control apart from the first nations 0:19:29.727 --> 0:19:33.207 kind of aspect of it is very much a continuation 0:19:33.327 --> 0:19:36.007 of like my first year politics essay, like some of 0:19:36.047 --> 0:19:41.127 these ideas, you know, things you just haven't found. You know. 0:19:42.247 --> 0:19:46.287 It's the kind of themes of the understanding of the 0:19:46.367 --> 0:19:50.047 universe that you know, if you're a mathematician, it's maths problems, 0:19:50.127 --> 0:19:53.167 and you know, if if you're kind of my brain, 0:19:53.247 --> 0:19:55.727 it's you know, how did the Holocaust happen? 0:19:56.247 --> 0:19:57.247 How did that happen? 0:19:57.447 --> 0:20:00.127 You know, and you never really got an answer, and 0:20:00.167 --> 0:20:02.727 then right now I feel like my brain is still going. 0:20:02.687 --> 0:20:06.367 Oh, oh, this is this is how it happens. 0:20:06.607 --> 0:20:09.647 Like, you know, the world I never thought I live 0:20:09.687 --> 0:20:14.087 in a world that's moving towards a cruelty or or 0:20:14.247 --> 0:20:19.007 a moral you know, is shewing any kind of true 0:20:20.127 --> 0:20:24.647 kind of moral reckoning, not moralizing, but leaving you know, 0:20:24.847 --> 0:20:28.887 to almost take deeply moral positions. Now he's woke, and 0:20:28.927 --> 0:20:30.847 you know, so I go, oh, this has happened. But 0:20:30.887 --> 0:20:32.847 I've been thinking about these things my whole life, So 0:20:33.407 --> 0:20:35.247 I guess as this content maker. 0:20:35.607 --> 0:20:37.327 A lot of that is just my brain I get 0:20:37.367 --> 0:20:37.887 hooked on. 0:20:38.607 --> 0:20:43.207 You know, will you diagnose ADHD late? Yes, so it's 0:20:43.247 --> 0:20:47.287 a relatively recent and did it fall? Did it put 0:20:47.327 --> 0:20:49.087 a lot of pieces into place for you? Has it 0:20:49.127 --> 0:20:50.967 been really helpful and understanding. 0:20:50.927 --> 0:20:53.287 That they do say that, You know, it's when you're 0:20:53.287 --> 0:20:55.087 on a journey with your children, you look at yourself 0:20:55.127 --> 0:20:58.887 and go, oh, yes, it's yeah. It explained a lot 0:20:58.967 --> 0:21:03.927 about certainly my father. I think you know, my brother 0:21:04.047 --> 0:21:07.447 may have been diagnosed as a child. It is that 0:21:07.527 --> 0:21:09.487 kind of women women thing. 0:21:09.727 --> 0:21:12.527 Yeah, And people were like, it's naughty boys, it's not. 0:21:12.847 --> 0:21:17.287 I've always like different spicy girls are my favorite because 0:21:17.407 --> 0:21:20.887 I know they're not judging me by the same kind 0:21:20.887 --> 0:21:25.207 of manual that I've never got the translation for, you know, 0:21:25.367 --> 0:21:27.767 as not just the mean goals, because I think. 0:21:27.647 --> 0:21:30.527 That's too tropy, but just those girls. 0:21:30.247 --> 0:21:34.847 That you know, just walk confidently through society with a 0:21:34.927 --> 0:21:39.727 kind of clarity about these you know, appropriate interpersonal interactions. 0:21:39.807 --> 0:21:42.167 You know they're not whereas you know, I'm just a 0:21:42.207 --> 0:21:45.847 ping pong ball bouncing off societes. So I've always felt 0:21:45.927 --> 0:21:48.247 safe with neurospicy girls. 0:21:48.687 --> 0:21:52.167 Yeah, I totally understand that. I've heard you say quite 0:21:52.167 --> 0:21:54.927 a bit though, that those years of the acting years, 0:21:54.927 --> 0:21:56.807 where you might have been on the big, shiny shows, 0:21:56.847 --> 0:21:59.487 you didn't actually have much control or input at all. 0:21:59.887 --> 0:22:03.647 And so do you feel like you've been getting older 0:22:03.807 --> 0:22:05.687 and more comfortable in lots of ways? Has also been 0:22:05.687 --> 0:22:07.927 about trying to regain control and the projects you work 0:22:07.927 --> 0:22:09.127 on now you get to do that. 0:22:10.087 --> 0:22:14.967 Yeah, it's funny that idea of control. I definitely fell 0:22:15.127 --> 0:22:20.687 out of control. I wasn't motivated to get control, except 0:22:20.727 --> 0:22:23.167 I knew that the only way to not feel out 0:22:23.167 --> 0:22:26.367 of control is to no longer be under contract. And 0:22:26.407 --> 0:22:29.567 I did two five year stints that could have gone 0:22:29.567 --> 0:22:33.847 to seven, and it was an amazing opportunity that fantastic 0:22:33.927 --> 0:22:35.967 creatives working with the best people. 0:22:36.087 --> 0:22:37.407 I wouldn't change it for the world. 0:22:37.847 --> 0:22:39.927 But I did fill out of control because you know, 0:22:40.047 --> 0:22:43.367 each week a script would arrive that I hadn't you know, 0:22:43.367 --> 0:22:46.407 I hadn't signed on for in the way that you 0:22:46.447 --> 0:22:49.767 know in a play or a film, the consent is 0:22:49.807 --> 0:22:52.847 that you have pretty much the full document. You know, 0:22:52.927 --> 0:22:55.887 you have a chat with the director, and any mass 0:22:56.007 --> 0:22:58.407 you know, any big changes to that document can be 0:22:58.487 --> 0:23:01.407 negotiated with agents once you've signed on, if they completely 0:23:01.487 --> 0:23:04.367 change the premise and you know where you're filming and 0:23:04.527 --> 0:23:06.247 a whole bunch of other things, you can't got a 0:23:06.287 --> 0:23:08.327 right to God, this is not working for me anymore. 0:23:08.967 --> 0:23:11.807 But once you're on a TV show, you are out 0:23:11.847 --> 0:23:15.087 of control. You signed on to one pilot and five 0:23:15.167 --> 0:23:18.927 years later you have no consent and. 0:23:18.927 --> 0:23:21.167 New pages are arriving all the time, and new characters 0:23:21.207 --> 0:23:21.927 doing all kinds. 0:23:21.727 --> 0:23:25.487 Of things, all kinds of things, and you know your 0:23:25.527 --> 0:23:27.607 character might be doing things, but in the end, it's 0:23:27.647 --> 0:23:31.167 your body and your emotions that are actually having to 0:23:31.287 --> 0:23:32.087 live with them. 0:23:32.527 --> 0:23:34.367 You know, in the projects that you've been bringing to 0:23:34.447 --> 0:23:36.967 life in the last I mean more than ten years, 0:23:37.007 --> 0:23:39.967 I suppose, but you've had much more input and been 0:23:40.007 --> 0:23:42.807 able to frame that much more clearly. But before we 0:23:43.047 --> 0:23:44.887 move on from Hollywood, I wanted to ask you what 0:23:44.927 --> 0:23:46.727 you think about at the minute. There's a lot of 0:23:46.727 --> 0:23:49.447 talk about how the gen x icons of your time, 0:23:49.647 --> 0:23:53.487 your Kidman's, your Demi Moor's, your Angelina Joli's, are all 0:23:53.567 --> 0:23:57.847 having moments again and that it's kind of being seen. 0:23:57.967 --> 0:24:00.807 And I've spoken about this, and I'd love to know 0:24:01.007 --> 0:24:04.887 what you think that maybe we have dented that agism 0:24:05.047 --> 0:24:08.447 in Hollywood that used to be you're forty or you're thirty, 0:24:08.527 --> 0:24:12.367 and you're playing now just either wronged wife or you know, 0:24:12.687 --> 0:24:15.807 mart and mum or whatever. Do you think that's true 0:24:16.287 --> 0:24:19.847 or do you think it's because we've kind of shifted 0:24:19.887 --> 0:24:22.407 the goalposts around what we think women of a certain 0:24:22.447 --> 0:24:24.807 age look like and all those kinds. 0:24:24.647 --> 0:24:26.247 Look I think it's that, And. 0:24:27.767 --> 0:24:32.967 I definitely think we now understand that, you know, women 0:24:33.607 --> 0:24:37.927 women watch television. Women are probably still in charge of 0:24:37.967 --> 0:24:40.887 which streamers are on the platforms and are being paid 0:24:40.927 --> 0:24:45.487 for by the monthly subscriptions. And because of that, this 0:24:45.607 --> 0:24:50.727 audience is being served. Women my age aren't scrolling TikTok 0:24:50.807 --> 0:24:54.367 to the same degree, so they're still committed to long form, 0:24:54.847 --> 0:24:55.807 perhaps more so. 0:24:55.847 --> 0:24:57.447 There is an audience there. 0:24:57.967 --> 0:25:00.087 And then I think the other thing is, you know, 0:25:00.167 --> 0:25:02.687 to speak of those kind of icons like to me, 0:25:03.007 --> 0:25:06.367 and I don't think Nicole really ever stopped having She's 0:25:06.367 --> 0:25:09.047 had heras. I don't think she's I mean, she's her 0:25:09.247 --> 0:25:13.447 moments only paused by kind of you know, a refresh 0:25:13.487 --> 0:25:16.327 and a regrounding, and she has another one. But we 0:25:16.367 --> 0:25:19.487 are entering an age where it's really really hard to 0:25:19.527 --> 0:25:20.447 become a movie star. 0:25:21.767 --> 0:25:24.287 So so you think the established ones. 0:25:24.527 --> 0:25:28.567 Yeah, that's that, you know, they have brand. You know, 0:25:28.887 --> 0:25:31.207 I want to see back to the future for you know, 0:25:31.287 --> 0:25:33.807 because you know, there is a nostalgia in there is 0:25:33.847 --> 0:25:35.047 a comfort. 0:25:35.207 --> 0:25:37.887 There's there. There truly are very few. 0:25:37.727 --> 0:25:41.247 True movie stars, you know under forty and that is 0:25:41.487 --> 0:25:46.327 that's a good thing in that you know, the the actors, 0:25:47.087 --> 0:25:50.447 there is more diverse actors, it's less concentrated, there's more 0:25:50.487 --> 0:25:54.087 opportunities to a point, but very few. You know, there's 0:25:54.247 --> 0:25:57.167 very few Charlemae and there's you know, you can have 0:25:57.207 --> 0:26:00.367 a moment, will you have a decade or will you 0:26:00.527 --> 0:26:04.247 have four decades? Like Nicole, I think it's I think 0:26:04.247 --> 0:26:07.407 it's really really going to become increasingly rare. 0:26:07.527 --> 0:26:11.047 That's interesting because that makes total sense. But also I 0:26:11.047 --> 0:26:13.727 guess the male movie stars have kind of been allowed 0:26:13.767 --> 0:26:15.447 for a long time to hold onto that. We were 0:26:15.527 --> 0:26:19.287 used to seeing men, the iconic male movie stars in 0:26:19.287 --> 0:26:20.607 their fifties. 0:26:19.927 --> 0:26:22.407 And beyond, but that may be actually very true. 0:26:22.447 --> 0:26:26.287 Maybe now women are being afforded that longevity. 0:26:26.367 --> 0:26:27.967 Yes, I think I hope. 0:26:27.767 --> 0:26:29.407 It's not just because they look younger. 0:26:30.327 --> 0:26:33.407 No, but no, I think that's true. 0:26:33.407 --> 0:26:36.447 I think it's harder to make a new female movie 0:26:36.487 --> 0:26:37.087 star now. 0:26:37.727 --> 0:26:39.047 And I think, you. 0:26:38.927 --> 0:26:43.847 Know, in a risk a verse content universe, I can 0:26:43.887 --> 0:26:46.007 see why people that go, well, let's you know, let's 0:26:46.007 --> 0:26:49.807 go with the name. But I also think, you know, 0:26:49.847 --> 0:26:53.847 I am really interested in the generation of girls that 0:26:54.007 --> 0:26:59.127 I perhaps would have been intellectually you know, snobby about 0:26:59.447 --> 0:27:02.767 and brought into you know, not that I would have 0:27:02.807 --> 0:27:04.967 said it, but did I internalize that idea that there's 0:27:04.967 --> 0:27:07.767 popcorn actresses and then there's serious actresses. 0:27:07.807 --> 0:27:09.967 And it's what Demi Moore Sadden exactly. 0:27:10.167 --> 0:27:14.287 And I was very lucky, you know, very lucky to 0:27:14.727 --> 0:27:17.767 find myself in the kind of take her seriously box. 0:27:18.447 --> 0:27:20.927 And I think that, you know, it was just by 0:27:20.967 --> 0:27:25.167 the fault of default of me not being as ngenw 0:27:25.407 --> 0:27:26.327 fucker ball. 0:27:28.247 --> 0:27:29.127 The whole young thing. 0:27:29.927 --> 0:27:32.567 And I probably kind of looked, you know, with some 0:27:32.927 --> 0:27:37.447 envy at the opportunities, repeated opportunities, you know, those female 0:27:37.487 --> 0:27:40.567 actors were given, and felt that was unfair, you know, 0:27:41.007 --> 0:27:43.367 especially when they turn up in a big movie that 0:27:43.927 --> 0:27:45.527 you know, I didn't think they were up for. And 0:27:48.007 --> 0:27:49.887 I kind of, you know, I'm a bit ashamed of 0:27:49.967 --> 0:27:52.927 myself for kind of buying into that, and I think 0:27:52.927 --> 0:27:56.087 it's I mean, Demi. I loved her, like from the 0:27:56.127 --> 0:27:59.607 moment I saw her, she to me had she was authentic, 0:27:59.687 --> 0:28:03.647 and she was raw and she was sexy, and I 0:28:03.767 --> 0:28:06.847 kind of understood that you could feel the kind of 0:28:07.527 --> 0:28:11.487 wounds in her and it was such a kind of 0:28:11.527 --> 0:28:15.007 shame that she got, you know, that she peeked at 0:28:15.047 --> 0:28:18.887 the I think the kind of most misogynistic brat pack 0:28:19.087 --> 0:28:23.367 moment and she just mocked and mocked. Yeah, and everyone thinks, 0:28:23.367 --> 0:28:25.247 you know, brat pack. I was worse in the fifties, 0:28:25.247 --> 0:28:28.567 but I grew up watching movies from the thirties, forties 0:28:28.567 --> 0:28:32.207 and fifties because the female roles were better, more interesting, 0:28:32.327 --> 0:28:33.367 more complicated. 0:28:33.807 --> 0:28:34.007 You know. 0:28:34.127 --> 0:28:38.847 It was the eighties movies that sucks. Yeh like really sucked. 0:28:39.007 --> 0:28:42.247 You know, the absolute tweep gets the hot girl and 0:28:42.687 --> 0:28:47.167 just impossible plots where you know, it was basically, you know, 0:28:47.407 --> 0:28:52.447 felt like nerdy in Cells ended up with the keys 0:28:52.487 --> 0:28:55.247 to the cool Kids camp through the you know, through 0:28:55.287 --> 0:28:59.287 their clever camera and just created a bullshit version. 0:28:59.127 --> 0:29:01.207 Of the universe with a triumph and. 0:29:01.287 --> 0:29:05.487 It was just rubbish's and they don't age well like 0:29:05.567 --> 0:29:08.407 those films do not age well back to the future side. 0:29:08.527 --> 0:29:13.207 Perhaps, I mean, I feel it's I mean very very 0:29:13.207 --> 0:29:15.007 briefly touched on this. We might go back to it later, 0:29:15.047 --> 0:29:18.087 but it's hard to feel optimistic about that many things 0:29:18.127 --> 0:29:21.407 at the moment culturally. But maybe that's one of them, 0:29:21.447 --> 0:29:23.927 Like maybe the fact that we are hearing more female 0:29:23.967 --> 0:29:25.647 stories that have a lot more and I know that, 0:29:26.007 --> 0:29:28.087 I know it's still female stories of a certain type 0:29:28.247 --> 0:29:30.807 in a way, but we are hearing more stories of 0:29:30.807 --> 0:29:34.167 women who are over the allegedly fuckable age. We are 0:29:34.207 --> 0:29:37.647 hearing more stories about different kinds. That's got to be 0:29:37.727 --> 0:29:39.887 something to be happy about. 0:29:40.887 --> 0:29:44.807 Yeah, I think I think it's also that, you know, 0:29:45.127 --> 0:29:52.047 I watched Love Actually Again recently firm how weird that 0:29:52.127 --> 0:29:52.687 film is. 0:29:52.767 --> 0:29:54.727 You know, she did not my fifteen year old daughter 0:29:54.767 --> 0:29:55.927 did not get that film. 0:29:56.127 --> 0:29:58.607 Well, not only do they not get it, they can 0:29:58.767 --> 0:30:06.207 actively unpick every misogyny. And somebody described it the profound 0:30:06.327 --> 0:30:12.167 lack of interiority that women were afforded in British and 0:30:12.207 --> 0:30:15.247 American cinema for a long time. And look, you know, 0:30:15.447 --> 0:30:18.167 and he was so charming, you know, that filmmaker. It 0:30:18.207 --> 0:30:20.247 was easy not to see it. But if you watch 0:30:20.327 --> 0:30:23.527 any of his films. So the women are just props 0:30:24.167 --> 0:30:26.367 for the men to learn how to be human on 0:30:26.487 --> 0:30:31.327 and even then probably discard or fail to understand there 0:30:31.487 --> 0:30:36.807 or be interested in their interiority. And I love in 0:30:36.927 --> 0:30:43.047 terms of content, young women know when that interiority exists 0:30:43.287 --> 0:30:45.527 and makes sense to them. I did a show called 0:30:45.567 --> 0:30:49.487 The Wilds, and it was profoundly because of this aspect. 0:30:50.087 --> 0:30:52.407 I had just never seen that young woman's coming of 0:30:52.447 --> 0:30:57.727 age done in such an unsexualized, complicated, messy way. You know, 0:30:57.807 --> 0:31:03.047 they do watch tiktoks where girls are authentically performative, maybe 0:31:03.287 --> 0:31:08.447 maybe performatively maybe, but performatively authentically talking about the icky, 0:31:08.447 --> 0:31:12.567 sticky feelings that are uncomfortable and weird. And Taylor's made 0:31:12.607 --> 0:31:17.287 it okay to name the ick feeling that, you know. 0:31:17.327 --> 0:31:19.847 I think our generation was so ashamed of. 0:31:20.407 --> 0:31:23.127 So I think that generation coming into menopause will not 0:31:23.207 --> 0:31:24.687 be as enraged as we are. 0:31:25.047 --> 0:31:27.567 That's really interesting. I really don't not have as much 0:31:27.647 --> 0:31:28.847 to be enraged. 0:31:28.647 --> 0:31:29.567 I don't think so. 0:31:29.967 --> 0:31:33.287 I think we sucked up a lot, and from me personally, 0:31:33.287 --> 0:31:35.327 it wasn't even about sucking it up. It was not 0:31:35.407 --> 0:31:40.567 having names for things. And suddenly the universe started naming 0:31:40.727 --> 0:31:45.407 these ikey nasty states that I felt like I did 0:31:45.527 --> 0:31:47.807 have a right to ask for usha and suddenly, you know, 0:31:47.847 --> 0:31:51.567 I had this fourth wave feminist language and a lot 0:31:51.567 --> 0:31:53.927 of it. 0:31:53.927 --> 0:31:57.047 It's so true. It's funny. In one of the earlier episodes, 0:31:57.487 --> 0:32:01.327 I often say, like, is there the idea of perimenopausal rage? 0:32:01.367 --> 0:32:04.087 Isn't it just a sane response to having lived as 0:32:04.087 --> 0:32:06.047 a woman in the world for so long when you 0:32:06.087 --> 0:32:07.687 are a gen X woman and having to put up 0:32:07.727 --> 0:32:09.207 with all this is like you're suddenly kind of like, 0:32:10.087 --> 0:32:13.807 hold on, I don't have to play by those yes anyway. 0:32:14.047 --> 0:32:16.487 I completely agree with that that and I think it's 0:32:16.487 --> 0:32:19.927 the last burst of testosterone to remake your life. If 0:32:19.967 --> 0:32:22.807 you don't like what it looks like, if you don't 0:32:22.847 --> 0:32:25.407 like the job you're in, you know, you're up the 0:32:25.447 --> 0:32:28.807 corporate ladder, you don't like the husband, the country, anything, 0:32:28.807 --> 0:32:31.687 you go. This is the last energy you will have 0:32:31.887 --> 0:32:36.607 in a fierce way to rebuild your life if you 0:32:36.727 --> 0:32:37.967 take that choice. 0:32:38.207 --> 0:32:40.927 That is so true. And why when you look around 0:32:40.967 --> 0:32:44.087 you see mid women verticoras are doing that. They are 0:32:44.607 --> 0:32:47.127 going and doing that PhD they wanted to do. They 0:32:47.167 --> 0:32:50.167 are training as a yoga teacher there. Whatever they're doing, 0:32:50.207 --> 0:32:56.007 they're leaving their marriages whatever. After the break, Rachel and 0:32:56.047 --> 0:32:58.407 I talk about her new project, Madam, which is all 0:32:58.447 --> 0:33:01.767 about sex and desire and freedom and you know, the 0:33:01.807 --> 0:33:07.407 good stuff. Stay with us, Rachel, I want to talk 0:33:07.407 --> 0:33:09.687 to you about Madam, your new series. And I actually 0:33:09.687 --> 0:33:12.687 had the chance to interview Antonia Murphy recently, who wrote 0:33:12.687 --> 0:33:14.447 the book that the series is based. 0:33:14.167 --> 0:33:17.567 On good You can actually tell me I've forgotten some 0:33:17.687 --> 0:33:20.247 aspects so that it's true and what is not. 0:33:20.447 --> 0:33:23.007 Yes, I don't want to get sued for Deafa. 0:33:22.887 --> 0:33:26.847 Ma, don't worry about that. A fair bit of the 0:33:27.327 --> 0:33:29.047 setup about the husband isn't strict. 0:33:29.087 --> 0:33:30.127 Yeah, true. 0:33:30.367 --> 0:33:33.287 But the thing that is certainly true, and that from 0:33:33.527 --> 0:33:36.407 the parts of Madam I've seen seem absolutely spot on, 0:33:36.567 --> 0:33:39.847 is that she is what she wanted to create with 0:33:39.967 --> 0:33:44.287 that ethical brothel and this kind of revolutionary idea. Really 0:33:44.327 --> 0:33:47.647 because she, as I know, you know, she found herself 0:33:47.647 --> 0:33:50.847 in New Zealand as an American woman with a profoundly 0:33:50.887 --> 0:33:56.367 disabled son, questioning her next stage. And in New Zealand 0:33:56.407 --> 0:33:59.727 sex works legal and brothels legal and did criminalize, yes, 0:33:59.807 --> 0:34:03.567 And so she said that's very unusual, but that didn't 0:34:03.607 --> 0:34:05.967 necessarily mean that they were ethical. So she set out 0:34:06.007 --> 0:34:08.287 to set as you know, I'm telling you all the stories, 0:34:08.287 --> 0:34:09.207 you know, but the listener might. 0:34:09.367 --> 0:34:10.327 Tell your listeners. 0:34:10.367 --> 0:34:14.647 And she's saying and the main thing, the main thing 0:34:14.767 --> 0:34:16.967 for the women who work there, and she was living 0:34:16.967 --> 0:34:19.527 in a small town, which I also find fascinating she's 0:34:19.567 --> 0:34:22.167 living in a small town, is that everything consent was 0:34:22.207 --> 0:34:24.047 at the center of everything they do. So the women 0:34:24.047 --> 0:34:25.927 were in control of their schedules and in control of 0:34:25.927 --> 0:34:27.967 who they saw and who they didn't see and all 0:34:28.007 --> 0:34:32.927 of those things. It's fascinating. It's a wonderful story of 0:34:33.007 --> 0:34:35.767 just stripping back a lot of talking before about how 0:34:35.807 --> 0:34:38.327 gen X women often have been very like, we're still 0:34:38.647 --> 0:34:42.007 shamey about stuff, and we're not sure. I think that 0:34:42.087 --> 0:34:44.447 maybe we thought we were really bold and out there 0:34:44.487 --> 0:34:48.127 and brave about sex and sexuality, but actually we're still 0:34:48.207 --> 0:34:50.887 quite icky about talking about it in this way. So 0:34:50.927 --> 0:34:54.887 it's a really interesting conversation. What drew you to the part? 0:34:55.047 --> 0:34:56.687 I mean, I know it's not her that you're playing, 0:34:56.687 --> 0:34:58.807 but the version of Antonia that was in. 0:34:59.447 --> 0:35:01.887 Well, every role I get offered, I run through the 0:35:01.967 --> 0:35:04.447 lens of how far, how long, how much? 0:35:04.767 --> 0:35:06.887 And then how good is you know, a lot chirry 0:35:06.967 --> 0:35:07.447 on the cake. 0:35:07.967 --> 0:35:11.927 So you're always developing projects too, right, so obviously total control. 0:35:11.967 --> 0:35:14.407 As we discussed, yes, your baby, well part of your baby. 0:35:14.447 --> 0:35:17.847 I know this was more just you know, to earn money, 0:35:18.007 --> 0:35:20.047 so I have to leave my family, see a balancing 0:35:20.607 --> 0:35:22.607 So how far away is it? How long will I 0:35:22.647 --> 0:35:24.967 be away for? And am I making enough money to 0:35:25.047 --> 0:35:29.247 fly myself back every weekend? Sometimes just sometimes I went 0:35:29.327 --> 0:35:31.287 back for a day and got a night flight back. 0:35:31.647 --> 0:35:33.487 So those things have to add up, and then it's 0:35:33.487 --> 0:35:35.967 like is it good? Because I don't really want to know. 0:35:35.967 --> 0:35:38.967 If I don't want to know, it's amazing, if I've 0:35:39.047 --> 0:35:42.607 already gone too far, you know, too long. I don't 0:35:42.727 --> 0:35:47.687 want the good thing to to make me feel, you know, 0:35:48.887 --> 0:35:51.647 torn really, you know, because it's quite black and white, 0:35:51.807 --> 0:35:54.367 and certainly was when the kids were, you know, the 0:35:54.367 --> 0:35:57.687 older two were still at school. I've been offered so 0:35:57.967 --> 0:36:04.767 many sex worker roles, so many madame roles, at least 0:36:04.767 --> 0:36:08.567 two British madame roles, I think one Australian and one American. 0:36:09.447 --> 0:36:12.807 A beautiful I was in a beautiful film by Honey 0:36:12.847 --> 0:36:15.447 of Kureesha called my son the Fanatic or I played 0:36:15.447 --> 0:36:18.487 a sex worker. I was groundbreaking British film and kind 0:36:18.487 --> 0:36:23.287 of predicted the rise of radical Islam in second generation 0:36:24.847 --> 0:36:29.327 Southeast Indian community. It was a very very tender, tender film. 0:36:29.447 --> 0:36:32.567 Everything I've read this is not tender. It's gretty, and 0:36:32.647 --> 0:36:35.247 it's dirty, and it's you know, and it's kind it's 0:36:35.287 --> 0:36:39.327 either like really you know, seriously exploring the exploitation well, 0:36:39.487 --> 0:36:42.607 kind of getting anyone off at home that wants to 0:36:42.767 --> 0:36:46.527 you know, it's it's hedging its bets and just kind 0:36:46.527 --> 0:36:49.967 of nasty. And I never you know, I was just like, 0:36:50.087 --> 0:36:52.607 oh god again, you know, if you got anything new 0:36:52.647 --> 0:36:53.327 to say about it. 0:36:53.407 --> 0:36:55.047 Yes, it's set in Victorian England. 0:36:55.047 --> 0:36:57.887 I'm like, it's still kind of grimy, gritty and kind 0:36:57.927 --> 0:37:02.247 of exploitative, and I'd have no content in the process historically. 0:37:03.007 --> 0:37:05.567 So when my agent kind of said, you know, it 0:37:05.687 --> 0:37:08.247 starts a brother and I'm like, I don't think I'm interested, 0:37:09.327 --> 0:37:12.287 and said, oh, it's you know, I said, so they 0:37:12.327 --> 0:37:14.847 always say ikey, and I just feel like they're so 0:37:15.007 --> 0:37:18.287 male gaze. Actually that's the thing. There's so male gays. 0:37:18.847 --> 0:37:21.047 And he said, oh no, no, this is sorry. It's a 0:37:21.087 --> 0:37:25.607 comedy and it's based on a real woman who's you know, 0:37:25.647 --> 0:37:28.287 written this manuscript. So he sent me the article and 0:37:28.687 --> 0:37:32.767 I said, oh, this, this is brilliant because I've just 0:37:32.927 --> 0:37:35.327 never seen a female gaze on. 0:37:36.367 --> 0:37:37.567 I mean, we grew up. 0:37:37.607 --> 0:37:43.567 With pretty baby like Brooke Shields is twelve taxi driver 0:37:43.807 --> 0:37:48.767 like you know, like talk about the pervy excuse of 0:37:48.847 --> 0:37:52.767 exploring a sex worker with the herd of gold whilst you. 0:37:52.687 --> 0:37:55.967 Know being twelve, like that is messed up stuff. 0:37:56.647 --> 0:38:01.047 So yes, comedy female and a queer show runner, made 0:38:01.047 --> 0:38:03.967 with consultation with women who work in the industry. 0:38:04.287 --> 0:38:06.967 And it's key we did, I say, it's they are funny. 0:38:07.367 --> 0:38:08.367 It's very funny. 0:38:08.527 --> 0:38:13.167 So yeah, that GOLLI heart but not heart in that 0:38:13.327 --> 0:38:17.007 like hooker with horror, madam with a heart. 0:38:17.447 --> 0:38:20.247 But when I interviewed ANNGONEA Wrod and I read her book, 0:38:20.247 --> 0:38:22.807 obviously is she was. She said that a lot of 0:38:22.847 --> 0:38:26.207 her most successful workers in that brothel were midlife women. 0:38:26.807 --> 0:38:29.647 She said that they a red flag for the women 0:38:29.727 --> 0:38:33.167 were always the guys who requested young was always one 0:38:33.207 --> 0:38:36.327 of their flags. And in the in her phone, they'd 0:38:36.327 --> 0:38:39.967 have all these little you know, nicknames for people. So 0:38:40.007 --> 0:38:44.287 it was you know, yes, really golden showers or whatever. Whatever. 0:38:44.447 --> 0:38:48.247 Don't wash Walter exactly, but she said that. 0:38:48.127 --> 0:38:52.127 The midlife women were often the most popular because they 0:38:52.167 --> 0:38:58.287 were nurturing, warm, experienced, efficient. You know, I'm very good 0:38:58.287 --> 0:39:01.487 at reading people, and I found that really interesting. It's 0:39:01.607 --> 0:39:04.487 like it's it's a really interesting concept and show. 0:39:04.607 --> 0:39:07.487 Yeah, and I think, you know, one of one of 0:39:07.527 --> 0:39:09.727 the great things she says in the book, she said, 0:39:10.167 --> 0:39:13.967 you know, we don't sell sex. We treat loneliness, which is, 0:39:14.127 --> 0:39:16.607 you know, as we know, an epidemic. And you know, 0:39:16.647 --> 0:39:19.287 one of the sex workers I talked to a lot 0:39:19.327 --> 0:39:24.767 of her clients were mid to late seventies, were still married, 0:39:24.967 --> 0:39:29.407 had you know, the sexual aspect of the relationship. It 0:39:29.527 --> 0:39:32.727 ended a long time ago, much to their deep, deep sadness, 0:39:33.287 --> 0:39:36.447 and you know, they didn't want to leave their wives, 0:39:36.447 --> 0:39:40.087 but they really grieved this this part of you know, 0:39:40.327 --> 0:39:43.487 the relationship and their wife is kind of like I'm 0:39:43.527 --> 0:39:47.127 just I'm not I can't I'm over that bit, you know. 0:39:47.447 --> 0:39:51.247 And so I think those yeah, middle older, older women 0:39:51.327 --> 0:39:54.007 servicing you know, older men with that kind of tenderness 0:39:54.007 --> 0:39:58.207 and you know, just a woman to look in their 0:39:58.207 --> 0:40:01.007 eyes go oh, you're hot, you know, and they go, oh, 0:40:01.247 --> 0:40:06.127 really really my wife doesn't think so it's interesting tender. 0:40:06.287 --> 0:40:08.967 We talk about sex a fabit on the show, and 0:40:08.967 --> 0:40:13.647 it's all always very it's always very emotional because as 0:40:13.687 --> 0:40:15.167 I've heard you say about the show, and it's true, 0:40:15.207 --> 0:40:17.007 is that when women talk about sex, it's often with 0:40:17.087 --> 0:40:20.327 lots of humor. And it definitely is. But when when 0:40:20.367 --> 0:40:22.647 I have we talked to midlife when about sex, sometimes 0:40:22.647 --> 0:40:24.927 there is a lot of sadness about who you used 0:40:24.967 --> 0:40:26.687 to be compared to who you are and how you 0:40:26.727 --> 0:40:30.687 feel about it now, and it's it's such an interesting 0:40:31.487 --> 0:40:33.567 story like that. We that in a way we don't 0:40:33.607 --> 0:40:35.767 talk about because we think sex belongs to young people. 0:40:36.847 --> 0:40:39.367 You know. I think Nicole's ending that one no video 0:40:39.447 --> 0:40:40.087 to Time. 0:40:40.047 --> 0:40:44.327 With the Milk, I think so true. 0:40:44.487 --> 0:40:48.767 I literally ordered a chlorin milk, which is one of 0:40:48.767 --> 0:40:52.007 my favorite, like last drinks, you know, I ordered a 0:40:52.407 --> 0:40:55.967 glor and milk and the barm and poured it while 0:40:56.007 --> 0:40:56.527 looking at me. 0:40:56.567 --> 0:40:58.807 I'm like, why what what is that was here? It 0:40:58.887 --> 0:41:02.007 was weird. Anyway, A couple of nights later I saw 0:41:02.047 --> 0:41:02.567 that movie. 0:41:02.567 --> 0:41:06.327 I was like, oh my god, I had no idea 0:41:06.687 --> 0:41:09.687 it really was kind of giving me the hmmm. 0:41:11.927 --> 0:41:14.487 It's one of the iconic scenes in Baby Girl Friends 0:41:14.487 --> 0:41:17.207 if you haven't seen, it involves a glass of milk. 0:41:17.327 --> 0:41:20.527 Don't order milk without thinking about the consequence. 0:41:21.607 --> 0:41:24.887 But speaking about high profile women, because I also want 0:41:24.927 --> 0:41:26.807 to talk to you a little bit about total control, 0:41:26.927 --> 0:41:30.167 which I know it has ended, right, it has ended, 0:41:30.327 --> 0:41:31.847 But what an unbelievable show. 0:41:32.327 --> 0:41:32.727 Thank you. 0:41:33.087 --> 0:41:35.847 I was listening to you talk about it recently too, 0:41:35.847 --> 0:41:38.167 and you said that when you were creating co creating 0:41:38.207 --> 0:41:41.007 that you spoke to a lot of powerful women in 0:41:41.047 --> 0:41:46.327 politics in Australia off record, and you talked a lot 0:41:46.367 --> 0:41:48.927 about the price of service for those women. And I 0:41:48.967 --> 0:41:51.727 know that's part of what's exploring that is that women 0:41:51.767 --> 0:41:54.807 who step into almost any public arena, it seems, but 0:41:54.847 --> 0:41:58.207 certainly politics and leadership, they have to almost agree now 0:41:58.247 --> 0:42:02.447 to this level of abuse and scrutiny that would destroy 0:42:02.527 --> 0:42:02.927 most of. 0:42:02.927 --> 0:42:06.407 Us, right, yeah, yeah, i'd agree. I agree with that. 0:42:06.567 --> 0:42:10.487 And I still think they're the kind of first victims 0:42:10.527 --> 0:42:15.687 of factional wars because they are still more often than 0:42:15.687 --> 0:42:21.447 not played by ambitious men who are wanting to elbow 0:42:21.687 --> 0:42:24.967 out the week on the way to the ministerial shut 0:42:25.647 --> 0:42:27.967 the ministerial paypacket on the you know, on the way 0:42:27.967 --> 0:42:30.367 to the lodge, because they think they're a genius. And 0:42:30.447 --> 0:42:33.807 those are very bruising, because it is one thing to 0:42:33.887 --> 0:42:37.407 put yourself out, you know, in the world and be 0:42:37.767 --> 0:42:41.247 so viciously trolled, probably you know, half by troll farms 0:42:41.247 --> 0:42:45.767 in the algorithm now, but you know, to literally have 0:42:46.287 --> 0:42:50.367 your life threatened and that of your children. And I 0:42:50.447 --> 0:42:52.567 might have said that a few years ago. I knew, 0:42:52.727 --> 0:42:55.127 I knew we were kind of going to get to 0:42:55.247 --> 0:43:00.567 where we are now. I knew we would get to 0:43:01.247 --> 0:43:04.887 egging in the street. I knew we'd get to caravans. 0:43:04.967 --> 0:43:10.327 I knew like a politician will die I am sure 0:43:11.047 --> 0:43:14.047 in the next few years because they're not offered the 0:43:14.127 --> 0:43:18.887 kind of protection that can protect against kind of incited 0:43:19.167 --> 0:43:23.327 angry individuals who have believed are kind of very negative 0:43:23.367 --> 0:43:26.007 twenty four hour news cycle that's kind of telling us 0:43:26.007 --> 0:43:28.607 that these people are corrupt and the government is corrupt. 0:43:29.407 --> 0:43:31.567 So I think, well, you know, I think we're headed there, 0:43:31.927 --> 0:43:33.927 and then to find out your own people don't have 0:43:34.007 --> 0:43:36.727 you back. I think that is also the other thing 0:43:36.767 --> 0:43:40.167 that that particularly for women, I think it would be 0:43:40.247 --> 0:43:42.487 easy to deal with that outside staff. 0:43:42.607 --> 0:43:46.767 If you really really knew that your. 0:43:46.567 --> 0:43:51.127 Own party, your own people were not backgrounding, you cannot 0:43:51.167 --> 0:43:54.687 you know, just I mean, every woman in the Australia 0:43:54.727 --> 0:43:57.327 knows if some weird articles start appearing in the paper 0:43:57.847 --> 0:44:01.127 and she's in a ministerial position, there's probably some background 0:44:01.447 --> 0:44:04.087 happening because she's going to be shuffled out and to 0:44:04.167 --> 0:44:07.527 do that in the Australian media and you start saying 0:44:07.527 --> 0:44:10.327 people are bullies or they're this just weird things pop 0:44:10.407 --> 0:44:11.887 up and you go, okay, who's background? 0:44:11.967 --> 0:44:13.167 I mean, what's very gender? 0:44:13.247 --> 0:44:16.727 So I think that's the really Really, if you really 0:44:16.727 --> 0:44:20.167 could trust and believe that your own party and people 0:44:20.207 --> 0:44:22.287 had your back, because that's what parties were meant to be, 0:44:23.047 --> 0:44:25.167 I think you could deal. But I think it's just 0:44:25.207 --> 0:44:28.527 getting excruciatingly painful for women now. 0:44:29.367 --> 0:44:33.407 And it also seems that as that becomes almost the game, 0:44:33.687 --> 0:44:36.807 the trolling, the attention war, was all of that stuff, 0:44:36.847 --> 0:44:39.007 that the kind of people that politics are going to 0:44:39.047 --> 0:44:41.487 attract are the kind of people who can withstand it, 0:44:41.567 --> 0:44:45.487 which is possibly not the best kind of humans. Most 0:44:45.487 --> 0:44:46.367 of us are sensitive. 0:44:46.487 --> 0:44:48.247 I think there's a degree of that, And then I 0:44:48.287 --> 0:44:51.887 think there's the kind of scarring of trauma. Like I think, 0:44:52.447 --> 0:44:55.247 you know two responses to trauma is one you completely 0:44:55.287 --> 0:44:57.447 fall apart and don't recover, and the other is you 0:44:57.567 --> 0:45:01.567 scar up and you harden up and you get very 0:45:03.287 --> 0:45:06.807 you get much less flexible, much less able to listen. 0:45:07.047 --> 0:45:09.487 And I think that is the hardened up to and 0:45:09.567 --> 0:45:12.047 up scar up. You know, he's from the slings and 0:45:12.127 --> 0:45:17.207 arrows of outrageous fortune. So to your point again, you 0:45:17.287 --> 0:45:19.807 have people in the job who are less likely to 0:45:19.927 --> 0:45:23.407 be making friendships across the island and keep listening. I 0:45:23.447 --> 0:45:26.687 think that is getting it's getting really, it's getting hard. 0:45:26.567 --> 0:45:28.967 This to say. One of the things I think is 0:45:29.687 --> 0:45:33.047 kind of tricky about this stage of life too, is 0:45:33.127 --> 0:45:38.047 maintaining a level of optimism about what can change and 0:45:38.047 --> 0:45:40.407 what can happen. And you've always been a very engaged 0:45:40.767 --> 0:45:44.247 person in terms of public life and social justice. I 0:45:44.247 --> 0:45:46.487 mean social justice maybe sounds like the wrong term, but 0:45:46.887 --> 0:45:50.207 you know, social justice and politics, you understand it. Is 0:45:50.247 --> 0:45:52.327 there any bit of you that's optimistic. 0:45:53.767 --> 0:45:56.727 Well, I really do believe in that, you know, except 0:45:57.047 --> 0:45:59.927 you know, accept the things you can't change, and you 0:45:59.967 --> 0:46:03.327 know much you know, I'm quite quite different to the 0:46:03.887 --> 0:46:07.327 you know, twenty sixteen kind of shock that such a 0:46:07.407 --> 0:46:12.687 capable woman was you know, not elected and somebody so 0:46:13.927 --> 0:46:16.447 you know, bombastic and. 0:46:18.327 --> 0:46:20.167 Of his nature was preferred. 0:46:20.207 --> 0:46:23.047 That was a real shock, and that was probably really 0:46:24.087 --> 0:46:29.367 coming in with that perimenopause moment. I've definitely yeah, pulled 0:46:29.407 --> 0:46:33.447 in and I think we're this idea that yelling, yelling 0:46:33.447 --> 0:46:35.527 at each other and making a statement and making a 0:46:35.607 --> 0:46:37.727 stand is the answer. 0:46:38.167 --> 0:46:40.167 Like, I've got to figure out other ways. 0:46:40.167 --> 0:46:44.087 It isn't another voice yelling into the void of just 0:46:44.127 --> 0:46:51.807 an increasingly loud cacophony of angry yells. So I'm kind 0:46:51.807 --> 0:46:54.967 of shifting into what I can control. I have given 0:46:55.047 --> 0:46:58.367 up trying to turn my high Rangers blue. No matter 0:46:58.367 --> 0:47:00.327 what I put in them, what I'm in the soil, 0:47:00.447 --> 0:47:02.327 those high Rangers want to be pink. 0:47:03.527 --> 0:47:06.607 I don't know if that's I thought I could. 0:47:06.647 --> 0:47:08.887 I read every book how to believe, but in the end, 0:47:08.927 --> 0:47:13.727 I've my Hydrangers are pinky blue and they will never 0:47:13.847 --> 0:47:17.207 be blue. Maybe it is a thing, And I think 0:47:17.847 --> 0:47:22.567 just leaning into believing in the power of the personal. 0:47:22.687 --> 0:47:24.807 So I'm just so much more likely to kind of 0:47:24.847 --> 0:47:30.247 reach out and connect and have conversations in more kind 0:47:30.247 --> 0:47:34.567 of one on one which doesn't feel as effective, you know. 0:47:35.607 --> 0:47:40.087 But I think I was deluding myself that the big 0:47:40.287 --> 0:47:44.447 you know, the big protests or the big statements, I 0:47:44.447 --> 0:47:45.247 don't know what they add. 0:47:45.327 --> 0:47:46.967 They look good, they look like you care. 0:47:48.007 --> 0:47:51.807 I wasn't doing it to tell people, you know, so 0:47:51.887 --> 0:47:54.527 I could tell myself. I cared. I was very motivated. 0:47:55.007 --> 0:47:57.967 But there's definitely a recalibration. 0:47:58.527 --> 0:48:02.927 Yeah, no, it does, absolutely. And I think people who 0:48:03.007 --> 0:48:05.207 followed your career and maybe and I'm going to use 0:48:05.247 --> 0:48:07.287 words that I hate, but I bet they get attached 0:48:07.287 --> 0:48:08.767 to you all the time, and maybe you don't hate them. 0:48:09.367 --> 0:48:15.407 Fisty characters, feisty, bullshy, opinionated, all those kind of words. 0:48:15.407 --> 0:48:18.567 They might have thought that you've always been very certain 0:48:18.607 --> 0:48:20.407 of who you are and speaking your truth. When you 0:48:20.447 --> 0:48:24.247 look back at those at you at that beginning of 0:48:24.287 --> 0:48:27.167 your career and when the public spotlight did first land 0:48:27.207 --> 0:48:29.087 on you, do you think you were that or do 0:48:29.127 --> 0:48:31.487 you think you're much more yourself? 0:48:31.767 --> 0:48:33.807 Look, I look, I probably am a bit you know, 0:48:33.847 --> 0:48:37.207 I am a bit bolshy, and I don't like management 0:48:37.367 --> 0:48:40.247 very much, so that I probably got that reputation because 0:48:40.287 --> 0:48:42.287 I just don't like really being told what to do. 0:48:42.967 --> 0:48:45.287 No is not usually my first answer to. 0:48:45.647 --> 0:48:47.807 Just take a second, but a lot of that i'd 0:48:47.847 --> 0:48:51.127 see through kind of the neuro you know, I think. 0:48:51.447 --> 0:48:53.087 I also want to say I don't mean any of 0:48:53.127 --> 0:48:54.047 that in a negative way. 0:48:54.047 --> 0:48:54.727 Of course you don't. 0:48:54.807 --> 0:48:57.727 But also because I think that also women in particular, 0:48:57.927 --> 0:49:01.087 maybe as we get older, we all that's what we 0:49:01.167 --> 0:49:02.847 all want, is to be able to say what we 0:49:03.567 --> 0:49:05.687 want to say, not when we want, not you know, 0:49:05.847 --> 0:49:09.007 like to And if people think that maybe you've always 0:49:09.047 --> 0:49:10.727 been at that, is that how you see it? 0:49:11.127 --> 0:49:15.327 No, I I think it would have been quite amazing 0:49:15.527 --> 0:49:17.927 to kind of have a better language to say when 0:49:17.927 --> 0:49:21.887 I was scared, and I've never really been certain of 0:49:21.967 --> 0:49:25.487 stuff that's like truth Intellectually, I don't go for the 0:49:25.527 --> 0:49:28.567 easy answers, and I even if I do for a minute, 0:49:28.687 --> 0:49:32.167 I'm you know, a better a better answer comes along, 0:49:32.207 --> 0:49:35.327 and I'll jump to that. So I think sometimes, you know, 0:49:35.407 --> 0:49:38.047 my husband says, you know, why are using that tone? 0:49:38.167 --> 0:49:39.447 And I'm like, what tone? 0:49:39.447 --> 0:49:41.927 It goes that tone when you I'm like, I'm sorry, 0:49:42.007 --> 0:49:45.807 that's just my I've got fifty five thousand things to do, 0:49:45.887 --> 0:49:48.927 and it sounds like I've got resting bitch tone. That's 0:49:48.927 --> 0:49:51.087 what I just came up with really recently. I said, 0:49:51.127 --> 0:49:54.807 I'm sorry, Annie, I've got resting bitch tone. But I 0:49:54.887 --> 0:49:57.487 wished I had been able to, you know, suck up 0:49:57.527 --> 0:50:01.727 to power better, you know, work the it work, the 0:50:02.447 --> 0:50:05.687 you know alpha girls a bit better. You know, I 0:50:05.767 --> 0:50:08.927 was just shit at all that. I just didn't get 0:50:08.927 --> 0:50:10.767 the MA That's all I say. 0:50:11.087 --> 0:50:11.167 So. 0:50:11.287 --> 0:50:13.607 I don't think I was necessarily any of these things. 0:50:13.647 --> 0:50:15.167 I think I was just a girl trying to figure 0:50:15.167 --> 0:50:16.367 it out without the manual. 0:50:16.887 --> 0:50:18.647 I'm like, why didn't I get a manual? 0:50:19.247 --> 0:50:21.447 Well, I think you managed to make incredible work with 0:50:21.487 --> 0:50:25.127 all that in mind. Thank you so much. It's been 0:50:25.287 --> 0:50:26.607 the best to talk to you. 0:50:26.927 --> 0:50:29.447 They're bears, and we didn't. I didn't get to your 0:50:29.527 --> 0:50:31.407 your I really want next time? 0:50:31.567 --> 0:50:34.047 And what is your favorite era? Those like what is 0:50:34.087 --> 0:50:34.407 your PA? 0:50:34.567 --> 0:50:36.167 I actually like this one? 0:50:36.087 --> 0:50:36.607 Yeah, I don't. 0:50:36.687 --> 0:50:38.687 I know, I don't know if you're supposed to say that, 0:50:38.847 --> 0:50:42.127 but I feel like I do have a much better 0:50:42.687 --> 0:50:45.327 handle on what I want to do with my time 0:50:45.327 --> 0:50:48.207 and what I don't. What makes me happy, I mean 0:50:48.247 --> 0:50:50.647 happy is you know, a broad term, but what makes 0:50:50.647 --> 0:50:53.167 me happy? And what doesn't. I'm like, I like this one. 0:50:53.567 --> 0:50:56.567 I just wish it came with without the like having 0:50:56.607 --> 0:51:04.167 lost my business and with that sort of midlife tilted 0:51:04.167 --> 0:51:06.287 head that everybody does to you, like, oh we're getting 0:51:06.287 --> 0:51:07.927 a bit old, aren't you. I'm like, you don't understand. 0:51:08.007 --> 0:51:09.727 This is great? Yeah, this is good. 0:51:09.847 --> 0:51:11.687 Yeah, this is good. So I like this one. 0:51:11.727 --> 0:51:13.887 I like going blind because I look in the mirror 0:51:14.007 --> 0:51:15.047 and I'm just like. 0:51:15.167 --> 0:51:16.327 I reckon, I'm really. 0:51:16.167 --> 0:51:21.007 Hot, and I very question I'll have my like three 0:51:21.327 --> 0:51:23.407 three glasses on and you know, I go in to 0:51:23.487 --> 0:51:26.767 get going to get pull a hair out that shouldn't be. 0:51:26.687 --> 0:51:27.367 Then I'm like, what. 0:51:28.807 --> 0:51:31.167 Most of the time I passed myself, you know, in 0:51:31.167 --> 0:51:32.087 a very fuzzy vision. 0:51:32.127 --> 0:51:34.967 I go look and good Bay, I totally hear you. 0:51:35.727 --> 0:51:43.407 Thank you so much, Rachel. Okay, I'm not going to 0:51:43.447 --> 0:51:46.687 forget Rachel's words easily. I have literally written down you 0:51:46.767 --> 0:51:49.487 would you did you have to as the verboten words 0:51:49.567 --> 0:51:52.487 of our next date night dinner. But if you love this, 0:51:52.647 --> 0:51:54.967 I want you to scroll back in the midfeed and 0:51:55.047 --> 0:51:58.167 listen to my conversation with Kylie Gillies about finding joy 0:51:58.207 --> 0:52:01.007 in a moment of big shift and also my conversation 0:52:01.047 --> 0:52:04.487 with Christine r Nu, who has the same absolutely straightforward, 0:52:04.487 --> 0:52:07.247 honest energy as Rachel when talking about work and kids 0:52:07.287 --> 0:52:07.727 and life. 0:52:08.607 --> 0:52:08.967 Massive. 0:52:09.007 --> 0:52:12.647 They're as always to our Mid team Executive producer Nama Brown, 0:52:12.847 --> 0:52:17.047 Senior producer Grace Rure, Producer Charlie Blackman, and we've had 0:52:17.087 --> 0:52:20.487 audio production from Jacob Brown. Thank you all so much. 0:52:20.847 --> 0:52:23.407 And before I leave, I've got to tell you something 0:52:23.567 --> 0:52:26.047 about an exciting holiday that you could win. 0:52:27.087 --> 0:52:27.407 Now. 0:52:27.487 --> 0:52:30.247 I am about to go on a little cruise with 0:52:30.327 --> 0:52:33.767 Princess Cruises with my best friend for her fiftieth birthday, 0:52:34.287 --> 0:52:37.247 and here at mid we are giving away a luxurious 0:52:37.327 --> 0:52:41.327 seven night cruise also with Princess for two value to 0:52:41.447 --> 0:52:44.687 over three thousand dollars. You can enjoy the benefits of 0:52:44.727 --> 0:52:47.607 Princess plus Fair with drinks and Wi Fi included as 0:52:47.607 --> 0:52:50.967 you sail, and you can visit Port Arthur, Hobart and 0:52:51.007 --> 0:52:54.607 do some scenic cruising through the Frasina Peninsula of Tasmania, 0:52:54.687 --> 0:52:58.847 absolutely stunning. All you have to do to enter this 0:52:58.887 --> 0:53:02.247 giveaway is to be a subscriber to Mamma Mia and 0:53:02.287 --> 0:53:04.927 for a limited time only, you can use the code 0:53:05.407 --> 0:53:10.127 mid Cruise, So mid Cruise for twenty two percent off 0:53:10.207 --> 0:53:14.527 your yearly subscription. And if you're already a subscriber, you've 0:53:14.567 --> 0:53:18.807 already entered into this and all subscriber giveaways done simple. 0:53:19.287 --> 0:53:21.367 The prize draw is on the fourth of March. Tease 0:53:21.407 --> 0:53:23.687 and sees apply. And if you haven't had enough of 0:53:23.727 --> 0:53:26.007 me yet, follow me on Instagram or sign up for 0:53:26.047 --> 0:53:28.687 my newsletter, or listen to me and my great friends 0:53:28.727 --> 0:53:31.647 Mia Friedman and Jesse Stevens talk a million times a 0:53:31.647 --> 0:53:34.447 week on Mama Mia out Loud. See you next week. 0:53:34.847 --> 0:53:37.487 Links to all the good stuff in the show notes.