WEBVTT - UNPACKED: Famesick - Lena Dunham 0:00:08.234 --> 0:00:14.874 You're listening to a Mother and mea podcast. Hello out 0:00:14.914 --> 0:00:17.073 loud as a gangzel Here, we've got a full house 0:00:17.114 --> 0:00:22.354 today joining me, Holly Wayne Wright, Amelia Lester, m Vernon. 0:00:22.074 --> 0:00:24.554 Hello, Hello, Hello, And we're here to talk. 0:00:24.434 --> 0:00:27.754 About Lena Dunham's Fame Sick. And we've got a very 0:00:27.754 --> 0:00:30.474 crowded desk because everybody has thoughts. 0:00:30.594 --> 0:00:32.394 Everybody wants to talk about. 0:00:32.074 --> 0:00:33.914 It, and we had to lock the studio so Kleas 0:00:33.914 --> 0:00:39.593 Stevens could again. We have all read Lena Dunham's second 0:00:39.634 --> 0:00:43.314 memoir before we get to it and how we felt 0:00:43.354 --> 0:00:46.633 about it. It's called Fame Sick, and it's about the 0:00:46.714 --> 0:00:50.594 time in her life when she was both becoming famous 0:00:50.754 --> 0:00:56.353 and also becoming and staying sick. Really, it transitions the 0:00:56.434 --> 0:01:00.594 Girl's era, what happened after Girls, her relationship with Jack Antonov, 0:01:01.194 --> 0:01:05.074 her relationship with Jenny Connor, who was her executive producer 0:01:05.114 --> 0:01:09.074 and creative partner through the Girls years and afterwards, and 0:01:09.994 --> 0:01:15.354 the progression of a series of terrible illnesses that climaxed 0:01:16.354 --> 0:01:18.634 well it was unrelated really, but when she set herself 0:01:18.634 --> 0:01:23.754 on fire, but we'll get to that first. I wanted 0:01:23.754 --> 0:01:26.154 to just check in with any of you whether you 0:01:26.274 --> 0:01:28.953 read the first memoir, because I know Amelia and I did, 0:01:29.034 --> 0:01:31.474 and we didn't love it. Not that kind of girl. 0:01:31.994 --> 0:01:37.874 And it was when Girls was peaking, and yet it finished. 0:01:37.954 --> 0:01:40.114 It was really just about a childhood and it finished 0:01:40.434 --> 0:01:43.834 when Girls started, and that was incredibly disappointing to me. 0:01:43.914 --> 0:01:44.714 Oh did you read it? 0:01:44.754 --> 0:01:47.074 I did not read it. Not a complete tst you. 0:01:47.114 --> 0:01:48.074 Missed out or nothing. 0:01:48.594 --> 0:01:50.394 I read about it a lot same. 0:01:50.554 --> 0:01:53.434 I didn't read it either, And what I read about 0:01:53.474 --> 0:01:55.354 it was a lot of people didn't like it. 0:01:55.434 --> 0:01:56.754 Why didn't we like it? Amelia? 0:01:57.634 --> 0:01:58.754 First of all, I had to say, I went to 0:01:58.794 --> 0:02:02.194 the book party. What did her first book party? 0:02:02.834 --> 0:02:04.794 The actual one, the actual irl. 0:02:05.594 --> 0:02:08.594 It was held at New York editor David Bremnick's house or. 0:02:08.514 --> 0:02:11.393 His apartment, the most incredible, and he. 0:02:11.274 --> 0:02:13.874 Has bookshelves that have ladders. I'm just going to say that, 0:02:14.913 --> 0:02:16.114 which I know is holly history. 0:02:16.194 --> 0:02:16.954 I would love that. 0:02:17.274 --> 0:02:20.234 And the funny thing was reading this book, I realized 0:02:20.274 --> 0:02:22.594 that when that book came out, she was at the 0:02:22.634 --> 0:02:27.274 peak of that toxic fame era. She was really in 0:02:27.634 --> 0:02:31.114 a mess, and you could tell at the party. I'd 0:02:31.154 --> 0:02:32.954 never met her before, but I went up to introduce 0:02:32.954 --> 0:02:36.394 myself because I was a big fan and she kind 0:02:36.434 --> 0:02:40.114 of treated me like she was uncomfortable with the praise. 0:02:40.354 --> 0:02:42.674 She didn't really want to hear from me. She thought 0:02:42.754 --> 0:02:45.034 that I was like one of the obsessive fans who 0:02:45.034 --> 0:02:47.474 maybe comes up to her on the street. She kind 0:02:47.474 --> 0:02:50.114 of shunted me aside, and I was a little offended. 0:02:50.514 --> 0:02:52.674 But now I've made this whole thing about me, because 0:02:52.714 --> 0:02:55.154 now I've read this book and I realized it wasn't 0:02:55.194 --> 0:02:57.594 about me. It was that she was going through so 0:02:57.794 --> 0:03:00.834 much stuff, and then when someone praised her or complimented 0:03:00.874 --> 0:03:03.714 her at the time, she couldn't even take it on board. 0:03:05.394 --> 0:03:08.554 That was peak irritation with Lena Dutton. One of the 0:03:08.594 --> 0:03:11.954 things that makes this book so great is she's coming back, 0:03:12.274 --> 0:03:15.554 you know, almost a decade later and looking back at 0:03:15.594 --> 0:03:18.073 all that time, with all the perspective, and I think 0:03:18.114 --> 0:03:20.874 the world was ready to hear it. I think at 0:03:20.874 --> 0:03:23.034 the time no one wanted to hear more. They felt 0:03:23.034 --> 0:03:26.194 like they'd heard so much Lena. Everywhere they looked. She 0:03:26.274 --> 0:03:28.874 had her newsletter. Then she was writing all the times 0:03:29.314 --> 0:03:31.194 she was the queen of and it was what you 0:03:31.274 --> 0:03:33.474 have to do. But like processing life while you're living 0:03:33.514 --> 0:03:36.034 life forgetting it all out there, and it's not. It 0:03:36.154 --> 0:03:38.234 just drove everybody crazy, which is not her fault. I 0:03:38.234 --> 0:03:40.554 think it was internet culture of the Internet culture. 0:03:40.274 --> 0:03:40.714 Of the moment. 0:03:41.074 --> 0:03:43.674 But now I think the world is ready to hear 0:03:43.714 --> 0:03:46.074 this story, and that's why it's so well received, and 0:03:46.074 --> 0:03:49.074 the fact that she's always just been the most incredible writer. 0:03:48.994 --> 0:03:52.514 She has been. There's a new generation that's also rediscovering girls. 0:03:52.834 --> 0:03:54.994 Yeah, and also with John said. 0:03:55.394 --> 0:03:56.674 General watching it, are you? 0:03:56.914 --> 0:03:59.834 I watched it, I think after it came out a 0:03:59.914 --> 0:04:02.474 few years, like five or six years after, and it's 0:04:02.514 --> 0:04:05.234 now one of my constant rewatches. But what was really 0:04:05.234 --> 0:04:08.674 interesting that I learned about fame seeking this memoir is 0:04:08.714 --> 0:04:11.914 that a lot of younger girls, even some my age, 0:04:11.914 --> 0:04:14.834 who didn't know Lena Dunham at all, are kind of 0:04:14.834 --> 0:04:16.993 reading it in their book clubs, and they're reading it 0:04:17.074 --> 0:04:19.313 like a novel, because it does read like a novel, 0:04:19.394 --> 0:04:21.794 like it reads like a piece of fiction from a 0:04:21.873 --> 0:04:24.674 first person point of view. And I'm finding it so 0:04:24.714 --> 0:04:27.794 interesting that people are reading a memoir without actually knowing 0:04:27.834 --> 0:04:28.353 the person. 0:04:28.953 --> 0:04:29.714 What do you mean? 0:04:30.113 --> 0:04:32.274 Because I've seen it on a New York Times bestsellers 0:04:32.274 --> 0:04:34.313 list and they're just like I just want to read 0:04:34.313 --> 0:04:36.633 this book. And I think when we go to read 0:04:36.633 --> 0:04:38.834 a memoirs, you kind of know who that person is 0:04:39.034 --> 0:04:39.553 and they don't know. 0:04:39.594 --> 0:04:42.833 How So you mean like jen Z's reading it just 0:04:43.753 --> 0:04:44.513 as a bit say. 0:04:44.914 --> 0:04:47.354 I also want to on that point, that's really interesting 0:04:47.553 --> 0:04:49.553 about how people are reading it as a novel. It's 0:04:49.674 --> 0:04:52.954 very revealing to me that the cover is sort of 0:04:52.993 --> 0:04:55.793 an Alice in Wonderland trope of legs falling down. 0:04:56.674 --> 0:04:57.674 They're not her eggs. 0:04:57.674 --> 0:05:00.834 What an interesting choice for a memoir to not have 0:05:00.953 --> 0:05:02.873 the person pose on the cover. 0:05:03.794 --> 0:05:06.194 I don't know they weren't heleg I assumed they were 0:05:06.193 --> 0:05:08.074 her legs. 0:05:08.113 --> 0:05:10.714 Look, this is our forensic journalist here. 0:05:10.794 --> 0:05:15.514 I believe Amelia, though I will definitely be trusting. 0:05:15.674 --> 0:05:17.833 She did an interview with the New York Times just 0:05:17.873 --> 0:05:20.514 when the book came out, and again it has been 0:05:21.073 --> 0:05:24.233 a very corrective reception for her, I would say, because 0:05:24.274 --> 0:05:27.433 the book and the tour and her legacy has been 0:05:27.474 --> 0:05:31.993 so well received pretty much unanimously. And she was talking 0:05:31.993 --> 0:05:35.674 about this compulsive need she has to express herself and 0:05:35.953 --> 0:05:38.433 making it about me for a second, I related to 0:05:39.594 --> 0:05:41.794 she kept putting her foot in it, and she kept 0:05:41.834 --> 0:05:45.154 getting canceled, and she said, I just kept trying to explain, 0:05:45.873 --> 0:05:48.273 and every time I tried to explain, I made it worse. 0:05:48.313 --> 0:05:50.953 And I'm like, ah, I've been there, So I want 0:05:50.953 --> 0:05:53.873 to kind of look at this in a structure of four. 0:05:54.354 --> 0:05:57.113 The four sort of buckets I put this into when 0:05:57.154 --> 0:06:01.313 I was reading it was family, her, particularly her relations 0:06:01.354 --> 0:06:05.433 with their parents, Fame the whole Girl's Year and becoming 0:06:05.513 --> 0:06:09.634 incredibly famous and becoming such a lightning rod in culture. 0:06:10.354 --> 0:06:14.034 Then also her relationships with Jack and Jenny, the two 0:06:14.274 --> 0:06:18.113 pivotal relationships that she had partner and her creative partner, 0:06:18.274 --> 0:06:21.393 magic and creative partners during that time, both of which 0:06:21.714 --> 0:06:26.433 imploded at a similar stage after Girls finished. And then 0:06:26.553 --> 0:06:30.073 finally or maybe in no order, in particular her chronic 0:06:30.113 --> 0:06:33.233 illness and the way that is such a through line, 0:06:33.274 --> 0:06:38.394 and she does some beautiful writing about exploring the parallels 0:06:38.433 --> 0:06:41.874 between fame and chronic illness. Before I throw it to 0:06:41.873 --> 0:06:44.193 a U whole for what you felt about the family, 0:06:45.034 --> 0:06:48.993 I listened to it an audiobook at your suggestion, Amelia, 0:06:49.034 --> 0:06:50.193 did you guys read or listen? 0:06:50.513 --> 0:06:52.354 Listen? Listen? Yeah, we all did. 0:06:53.034 --> 0:06:54.713 The audio sales of this book are going to be 0:06:54.794 --> 0:06:56.113 absolutely huge. 0:06:56.154 --> 0:06:57.633 Why do you think we did? Because she is a 0:06:57.633 --> 0:06:59.714 beautiful writer. And I said to you, Amelia, now I's 0:06:59.714 --> 0:07:01.914 going to read it because she's a beautiful writer. 0:07:02.034 --> 0:07:06.313 But you said, well, because she's famous for writing people talking. 0:07:06.553 --> 0:07:09.594 She's a green writers. So I wanted to hear her 0:07:09.674 --> 0:07:10.834 say the words. 0:07:11.274 --> 0:07:14.194 And I do love listening to memoirs that are read 0:07:14.314 --> 0:07:14.954 by the TOFA. 0:07:15.234 --> 0:07:17.754 It's like listening to a really long podcast, and you 0:07:17.754 --> 0:07:19.914 can do it in chunks and you can sort of 0:07:19.914 --> 0:07:20.874 pace yourself with it. 0:07:21.194 --> 0:07:23.434 You feel like you're also gleaning a little bit of 0:07:23.474 --> 0:07:25.994 extra information from how they read certain. 0:07:25.794 --> 0:07:28.713 Sections on that. A friend asked me if she should listen, 0:07:28.834 --> 0:07:31.393 and I said, yes, but don't try to binge it. 0:07:32.194 --> 0:07:35.074 I wasn't able to binge it. I had to have breaks. 0:07:35.114 --> 0:07:37.554 Did you find that I pretty. 0:07:37.274 --> 0:07:37.874 Much binged it? 0:07:37.874 --> 0:07:39.994 I have to say I listened to it pretty solidly 0:07:40.074 --> 0:07:42.834 on a few long drives, and I just I was 0:07:42.914 --> 0:07:46.034 hungry for it. I read it cleaning and I read 0:07:46.034 --> 0:07:49.314 it packing, and I wanted to get there. I found 0:07:49.314 --> 0:07:51.354 it quite propulsive, like I was dying to get. 0:07:51.393 --> 0:07:53.674 It's one of those books that's so good that when 0:07:53.674 --> 0:07:55.194 you finish you feel a bit sad. 0:07:55.754 --> 0:07:58.434 I did feel a bit sad you warned me about that. 0:07:58.594 --> 0:08:01.754 I binged it up until we got to the part 0:08:01.874 --> 0:08:04.514 where she started talking about her addiction and she was 0:08:04.514 --> 0:08:07.074 in rehab. I found that I found that kind of 0:08:07.274 --> 0:08:09.994 like a sub story within the memoir, like it felt 0:08:09.994 --> 0:08:12.314 like it could be your own standalone piece. And I 0:08:12.354 --> 0:08:15.474 found that very hard to listen to because I think 0:08:15.514 --> 0:08:18.554 that was the time where I started learning about her 0:08:18.594 --> 0:08:20.754 when I was younger, and I remember, and I remember 0:08:20.794 --> 0:08:23.834 when it got leaked that she was in rehab, and 0:08:23.953 --> 0:08:26.114 just like listening to her thoughts and what was happening 0:08:26.154 --> 0:08:28.353 while she was in there just felt like I needed 0:08:28.393 --> 0:08:29.593 to give it space. 0:08:31.154 --> 0:08:33.154 It felt like to me. The book ended a number 0:08:33.234 --> 0:08:35.794 of times and then kept going, and I thought that 0:08:35.953 --> 0:08:40.394 was quite evocative of chronic illness and perhaps the cycle 0:08:40.434 --> 0:08:43.274 of fame. But what did you take away about her 0:08:43.274 --> 0:08:44.754 relationship with her parents? 0:08:44.754 --> 0:08:47.354 One of the things I thought, because so she's very, 0:08:47.474 --> 0:08:49.754 very close to her family, right, and she that's not 0:08:49.794 --> 0:08:53.194 a secret about her and her parents are They're kind 0:08:53.194 --> 0:08:55.034 of arty New Yorkers. 0:08:54.714 --> 0:08:55.314 Aren't they right? 0:08:55.474 --> 0:08:59.074 They weren't famous, but they were respected in their fields. 0:08:59.714 --> 0:09:03.754 And she grew up in Manhattan, a very atypical upbringing, 0:09:03.834 --> 0:09:06.554 really growing up in Manhattan and in Brooklyn and in 0:09:06.594 --> 0:09:09.394 this ARTI world and going to very liberal schools and everything. 0:09:09.954 --> 0:09:14.114 But I felt like her family saved her because at 0:09:14.114 --> 0:09:16.474 the beginning of the book she dedicates it to all 0:09:16.514 --> 0:09:19.594 the people who didn't survive fame, So everyone from Marilyn 0:09:19.594 --> 0:09:23.594 Monroe to Amy Winehouse to Peaches gelled Off to Liam Payne, 0:09:23.794 --> 0:09:26.874 all these people, famous people who died in various ways. 0:09:27.794 --> 0:09:30.234 And I kept thinking, I wonder how many of those 0:09:30.474 --> 0:09:32.474 didn't have the kind of family that can swoop in 0:09:32.514 --> 0:09:33.794 and pick you up every. 0:09:33.554 --> 0:09:36.554 Time you fall, which she did have. 0:09:36.714 --> 0:09:39.314 And it was you know, the number of times she 0:09:39.354 --> 0:09:41.834 would go back to her parents' place, stay there. They'd 0:09:41.834 --> 0:09:43.594 put her back together, they'd know her back to health, 0:09:43.634 --> 0:09:45.714 they'd send her back out into the world. They were 0:09:45.754 --> 0:09:48.394 always her first call when things went wrong. They always 0:09:48.394 --> 0:09:50.394 forgave it. They're kind of tough love in some ways, 0:09:50.434 --> 0:09:53.154 but not ever in a way that they might take 0:09:53.234 --> 0:09:55.594 it back, you know, retract their love for her, And 0:09:55.674 --> 0:09:58.514 I thought they were probably what saved her. To be honest, 0:09:58.794 --> 0:10:03.514 as much as the dynamic is relatively enmeshed and complicated, 0:10:03.994 --> 0:10:08.314 I think that so often when young people get completely lost. 0:10:08.434 --> 0:10:11.874 It's because they do not have that base. That's what 0:10:11.954 --> 0:10:15.034 I thought. I thought it was I think a love Love. 0:10:15.314 --> 0:10:18.634 Loved the part about her mom getting really pissed off 0:10:18.674 --> 0:10:19.914 with her daughter's fame. 0:10:20.234 --> 0:10:22.274 I thought it was so interesting, so well written, and 0:10:22.314 --> 0:10:22.954 so insightful. 0:10:22.954 --> 0:10:26.074 So because her mom was an artist, as I said, 0:10:26.074 --> 0:10:28.394 and had not really a level of fame, but a 0:10:28.434 --> 0:10:30.634 level of fame in the art world, and suddenly your 0:10:30.714 --> 0:10:34.274 daughter is this absolute lightning rod and journals are going 0:10:34.274 --> 0:10:37.674 to your shows to try and glean secrets and make judgments, 0:10:37.714 --> 0:10:40.874 and your Lena Dunham's mother instead of being yourself, And 0:10:41.234 --> 0:10:44.074 how annoying that would be. I could really relate to that. 0:10:44.074 --> 0:10:47.314 That would be so annoying. And I loved how honest 0:10:47.394 --> 0:10:49.834 she was about all that and about them coming back together. 0:10:49.874 --> 0:10:53.394 I thought she wrote about them with really clear eyes. 0:10:54.474 --> 0:10:58.394 She describes her parents as helicopter parents, but you could 0:10:58.394 --> 0:11:01.594 also tell with the way she talks about them that 0:11:01.634 --> 0:11:04.274 she was very much leaning into it and very much 0:11:04.394 --> 0:11:05.554 wanted that. 0:11:05.554 --> 0:11:06.714 That part where. 0:11:06.514 --> 0:11:08.474 She came out of one of her surgeries and she 0:11:08.554 --> 0:11:11.354 said she could have chosen to go home with Jack, 0:11:11.394 --> 0:11:13.834 who was there waiting for her and she chose to 0:11:13.834 --> 0:11:15.914 stay with a parent and would message him and say, 0:11:16.154 --> 0:11:18.714 I need one more day with my parents before I 0:11:18.754 --> 0:11:20.794 come home. It was like she would always use a 0:11:20.914 --> 0:11:22.834 parent as kind of a safety blanket. 0:11:22.954 --> 0:11:25.234 Does it arrest your development though? Does it stop you 0:11:25.234 --> 0:11:25.914 from growing up? 0:11:25.994 --> 0:11:28.914 I disagree with you. Oh yeah, I think it does. 0:11:29.034 --> 0:11:31.354 I think it's interesting to say it was clear eyed. 0:11:31.514 --> 0:11:35.834 I actually thought it was lacking in a willingness to 0:11:36.034 --> 0:11:39.474 question or interrogate the way she was brought up. It 0:11:39.594 --> 0:11:41.474 was like this was the best possible way it could 0:11:41.514 --> 0:11:43.914 be brought up. There were no trade offs, Like, yes, 0:11:43.994 --> 0:11:47.074 say her dad comes in swoops into rescue her when 0:11:47.074 --> 0:11:48.954 she gets a Q tip stuck in her ear, when 0:11:48.994 --> 0:11:52.714 she is literally making a show on HBO, Like that's 0:11:52.834 --> 0:11:55.474 probably one of the most adult tasks you could ever 0:11:55.514 --> 0:11:57.953 be given. And he's still coming in to get the 0:11:58.034 --> 0:12:00.434 Q tip out of her ear. And I just wondered 0:12:00.474 --> 0:12:03.274 at moments like that, where the questioning of that kind 0:12:03.354 --> 0:12:09.514 of ameshment and that slightly overbearing presence that did to her, 0:12:09.594 --> 0:12:11.274 whether it did arrest her development. 0:12:11.474 --> 0:12:14.634 I'll be harsher. I think she is a failure to launch. 0:12:15.674 --> 0:12:22.594 I think that she has this very infantilized role that 0:12:22.714 --> 0:12:25.714 she still plays with her parents. You know the fact 0:12:25.754 --> 0:12:28.474 that she's in an adult relationship with a man who 0:12:28.514 --> 0:12:31.914 she lives with. She has surgery, and she goes home 0:12:31.954 --> 0:12:36.474 to her parents constantly through the book, and I get 0:12:36.514 --> 0:12:38.994 that Jack was off and away, but sometimes he wasn't. 0:12:39.074 --> 0:12:42.674 And I went back and listened to the interview she 0:12:42.714 --> 0:12:44.954 did with The New York Times again after I'd read 0:12:44.954 --> 0:12:47.874 the book, and she says in that and I've heard 0:12:47.914 --> 0:12:50.394 her say it many times, my dad is my best friend. 0:12:51.794 --> 0:12:55.714 And I find that I've been really thinking about that. 0:12:55.914 --> 0:12:58.674 And I can think of two other women, famous women 0:12:58.714 --> 0:13:02.434 who say that, Gwyneth Paltrow and Nicole Kidman, and both 0:13:02.434 --> 0:13:04.314 of them have lost their fathers, but they said it 0:13:04.474 --> 0:13:06.354 very much when their fathers were alive, and they talk 0:13:06.354 --> 0:13:09.234 about being daddy's girls. And I think if a woman 0:13:09.314 --> 0:13:12.394 says that her dad is her best friend, it's not 0:13:12.474 --> 0:13:16.194 very adult. Because dads think their daughters are perfect. They 0:13:16.234 --> 0:13:19.274 have very unquestioning They don't make demands of their daughters 0:13:19.354 --> 0:13:22.194 on generalizing. But in the cases of you know, anyone 0:13:22.234 --> 0:13:25.234 that says their dad is their best friend, their dad 0:13:25.274 --> 0:13:27.114 thinks the moon and the stars of them now that 0:13:27.274 --> 0:13:30.314 is not an adult it's not an adult friendship, and 0:13:30.394 --> 0:13:34.354 it's certainly not a basis for a romantic relationship with 0:13:34.394 --> 0:13:34.674 a man. 0:13:34.794 --> 0:13:36.514 It's not what I would want. I mean when I 0:13:36.594 --> 0:13:38.514 say that I think it saved her. I don't mean 0:13:38.554 --> 0:13:41.594 to say that I think it was entirely positive and healthy. 0:13:41.714 --> 0:13:45.394 I just mean in terms of the context of fame, drugs, 0:13:45.674 --> 0:13:49.434 that world, having that saf nest, even whether that's a 0:13:49.474 --> 0:13:50.953 good thing or a bad thing to keep going back to, 0:13:50.994 --> 0:13:54.274 it is something that makes the difference so many times 0:13:54.314 --> 0:13:55.474 about how lost you can get. 0:13:55.714 --> 0:13:58.514 I think it saved her, but it also stunted. 0:13:58.034 --> 0:14:00.314 Her, and it also maybe led her down that path 0:14:00.394 --> 0:14:03.554 in some ways as well. Like I mean, I feel 0:14:03.594 --> 0:14:05.514 like it's interesting that you said that she said he 0:14:05.914 --> 0:14:08.674 her best friend. He would not say that she was 0:14:08.674 --> 0:14:11.114 his best friend. In fact, what came through to me 0:14:11.394 --> 0:14:14.834 was a curious asymmetry in that relationship. Remember when she 0:14:14.874 --> 0:14:18.594 first gets the girl's deal and he says something like 0:14:18.754 --> 0:14:20.874 is that a good thing? And it's like, come on, 0:14:21.074 --> 0:14:22.114 you know what's a good thing. 0:14:22.274 --> 0:14:25.154 I love that about them that they're always like unimpressed. 0:14:25.874 --> 0:14:30.434 Yeah, not in a gas lighty mean way. It's just 0:14:30.514 --> 0:14:31.514 not their current. 0:14:31.514 --> 0:14:35.114 Their world. 0:14:32.154 --> 0:14:38.194 They I wonder if that relationship dynamic with her parents 0:14:38.274 --> 0:14:40.354 is one where when she does have a Q tip 0:14:40.394 --> 0:14:42.674 stuck in her ear, or when she is at rock bottom, 0:14:42.954 --> 0:14:47.354 they're very comfortable taking care of her, but they seem 0:14:47.394 --> 0:14:49.994 patently less comfortable when she's succeeding. 0:14:50.354 --> 0:14:52.834 Yeah, exactly, but like, what else are they meant to 0:14:52.834 --> 0:14:53.954 do if she gets. 0:14:54.034 --> 0:14:56.074 Maybe not say is that a good thing when she 0:14:56.114 --> 0:14:57.834 gets a TV deal? You don't have to be in 0:14:57.874 --> 0:15:00.074 that world to know that that's an impressive achievement. 0:15:00.274 --> 0:15:02.514 I reckon, No, I reckon, Like my dad would say 0:15:02.514 --> 0:15:02.994 the same thing. 0:15:05.354 --> 0:15:08.314 Individual relationships with so one of me. It struck me 0:15:08.314 --> 0:15:10.874 as an asymmetry and affection between her and her dad. 0:15:10.914 --> 0:15:13.154 But I think it's interesting because the other piece to 0:15:13.194 --> 0:15:15.074 this that's interesting about her mom. So you know, she 0:15:15.074 --> 0:15:17.714 obviously has that piece where she talks about their relationships 0:15:17.754 --> 0:15:20.474 had difficult times, but she also makes it very clear 0:15:20.514 --> 0:15:22.594 that from the minute she was walking and talking, her 0:15:22.634 --> 0:15:26.274 mom was telling everyone how great she was, Like when 0:15:26.274 --> 0:15:29.034 she said her teachers were was a drama teacher or 0:15:29.074 --> 0:15:32.234 something who was like criticizing Lena, and her mum was 0:15:32.234 --> 0:15:34.474 always in her court. I say, well, clearly there's something 0:15:34.474 --> 0:15:34.914 wrong with you. 0:15:35.354 --> 0:15:37.794 So I think, yeah, but that's because she's her creation. 0:15:38.114 --> 0:15:40.194 Like when she's a kid in drama class and the 0:15:40.274 --> 0:15:44.394 drama teacher doesn't recognize Lena's like obvious genius. That's a 0:15:44.434 --> 0:15:46.714 reflection on Laurie Simmons. I mean, I don't want to 0:15:46.714 --> 0:15:50.074 criticize them as people. I'm just finding what's interesting is 0:15:50.114 --> 0:15:53.194 that she doesn't ever reckon or grapple with any of 0:15:53.234 --> 0:15:56.514 these questions around to what extent was it helpful that 0:15:56.594 --> 0:15:59.074 they were so homesh amesh Why did she go home 0:15:59.074 --> 0:16:01.874 with her parents instead of her boyfriend. I just thought, 0:16:01.874 --> 0:16:06.234 for someone who's so unguarded and so frank in talking 0:16:06.274 --> 0:16:09.554 about sex, talking about other relationships, this is one area 0:16:09.634 --> 0:16:10.914 where she doesn't want to delve. 0:16:11.394 --> 0:16:14.194 Yeah, And I found what was also missing for me 0:16:14.394 --> 0:16:17.994 is that phase in life where you go from thinking 0:16:18.034 --> 0:16:21.594 your parents are your heroes and they're perfect, to becoming 0:16:21.634 --> 0:16:25.514 aware that they're very human, and then as you get older, 0:16:26.634 --> 0:16:30.354 feeling a level of responsibility for them. And maybe it's 0:16:30.434 --> 0:16:34.474 just that she's younger than and I don't even mean 0:16:34.474 --> 0:16:37.954 that they're getting sick, but she's like a lack of 0:16:38.034 --> 0:16:42.034 sort of protection she's always she's quite babyish with them, 0:16:42.434 --> 0:16:46.154 and it's interesting her she had a sibling who transitioned 0:16:46.754 --> 0:16:49.714 and that was really interesting too. She had to be 0:16:49.794 --> 0:16:51.954 very careful how she talked about that and the big 0:16:51.994 --> 0:16:54.994 falling out that they had over something that she wrote 0:16:55.034 --> 0:16:59.634 in her first memoir, and how they really detached themselves 0:17:00.114 --> 0:17:02.874 from her her brother over this time. 0:17:03.034 --> 0:17:05.793 I sensed every word she wrote about Cyrus her brother 0:17:06.434 --> 0:17:10.994 was agon. I think that relationship has been through the wars. 0:17:11.514 --> 0:17:14.594 Yeah, but I think that's clear right. She talks in 0:17:14.634 --> 0:17:18.874 the book about how much her brother's respect is all 0:17:18.914 --> 0:17:22.394 she wants. A lot of her relationships have all been 0:17:22.434 --> 0:17:25.394 about that, and I find I think it's interesting too 0:17:25.434 --> 0:17:28.474 to think that she did move to London so well 0:17:28.594 --> 0:17:30.394 as a mister she is with her family. 0:17:30.634 --> 0:17:31.194 That's true. 0:17:31.314 --> 0:17:34.434 She actually did when she was finally getting through this 0:17:34.594 --> 0:17:38.114 incredibly because she was so young when all this happened. 0:17:38.154 --> 0:17:40.674 She still was a kid, you know, And I think 0:17:40.714 --> 0:17:43.314 that in a way, the fact that she actually did 0:17:43.354 --> 0:17:46.754 remove herself from that family probably tells you a lot. 0:17:46.794 --> 0:17:49.394 It's so interesting memoir, how you there are some things 0:17:49.394 --> 0:17:50.994 in here that you think, as a parent, you'd be 0:17:50.994 --> 0:17:55.874 devastated to read, but you also know that broadly speaking, 0:17:56.074 --> 0:17:58.273 she's not going to throw them under any boses. 0:18:00.714 --> 0:18:05.594 Let's talk about Jack and Jenny. Oh so good, Amelia 0:18:05.634 --> 0:18:08.794 in my Roman Empire hat for a long time has 0:18:08.834 --> 0:18:12.794 been the fallout of Jenny Connor and Lena Dunham's relationship, 0:18:13.394 --> 0:18:15.874 and it's always pained us deeply that we would never 0:18:15.994 --> 0:18:18.714 know why, because it seemed like there were a lot 0:18:18.714 --> 0:18:21.954 of NDAs and they just seem like they never talk 0:18:21.994 --> 0:18:25.514 about it, And here we are, Amelia or not to. 0:18:25.554 --> 0:18:28.313 Explain, I got to get your So we've already disagreed 0:18:28.354 --> 0:18:31.874 about this because to me, she hates Jenny, and Jenny 0:18:31.874 --> 0:18:32.714 comes across as a gool. 0:18:32.794 --> 0:18:35.674 But wait, you need to take people on the journey 0:18:35.914 --> 0:18:37.354 of who is Jenny Connor? 0:18:37.554 --> 0:18:40.033 Who is Jenny Connor? So she What I didn't realize 0:18:40.074 --> 0:18:42.714 is that Jenny Connor came from a Hollywood family. Her 0:18:42.754 --> 0:18:46.714 father wrote for the Sopranos, Her uncle lived next door 0:18:46.794 --> 0:18:49.514 to Lena's family, which I thought was a crazy coincidence. 0:18:50.114 --> 0:18:54.874 And basically jud Apatow was close with Jenny, and when 0:18:54.914 --> 0:18:58.954 Tiny Furniture came out, jud was like, you're really talented 0:18:58.994 --> 0:19:03.274 and essentially broken a relationship between Jenny and Lena. 0:19:03.114 --> 0:19:07.394 Because HBO gave her this deal. She was an executives, 0:19:07.434 --> 0:19:13.273 a director, writer, star, but she'd never done anything before really, 0:19:13.434 --> 0:19:17.554 and so they needed she needed a chaperone, essentially, and 0:19:18.194 --> 0:19:23.394 Jenny had executive produced on other shows and had more 0:19:23.434 --> 0:19:25.674 experience and was a lot older, So she was about 0:19:25.674 --> 0:19:28.474 thirty eight and Lena was twenty four when they met, 0:19:28.514 --> 0:19:31.154 and Lena chose her. So she interviewed a number of 0:19:31.434 --> 0:19:35.114 potential creative partners and she chose Jenny. 0:19:35.674 --> 0:19:38.754 Jenny was giving Cheryl Samberg and Kellless People to me. 0:19:38.914 --> 0:19:41.754 Has anyone read Kellless People, Sarah Wynn William's book about 0:19:41.794 --> 0:19:44.834 working at Facebook. There's this kind of, I'm going to 0:19:44.914 --> 0:19:47.674