1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,341 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,182 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:26,061 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:26,101 --> 00:00:29,461 Speaker 2: Parenting Out Loud. I'm Jesse Stevens and I am joined 5 00:00:29,622 --> 00:00:32,702 Speaker 2: by Amelia Lester, and we are here to talk about 6 00:00:32,781 --> 00:00:36,022 Speaker 2: some of the stories that dominated the week, because if 7 00:00:36,062 --> 00:00:40,022 Speaker 2: parents are thinking about it, we're talking about it. Amelia, Welcome, 8 00:00:40,342 --> 00:00:44,141 Speaker 2: Thanks Jesse. I wanted to thank you because a lot 9 00:00:44,182 --> 00:00:46,702 Speaker 2: of people may know you as a fashionistuf I believe 10 00:00:46,742 --> 00:00:50,582 Speaker 2: this tree is the correct term, and you recommended to 11 00:00:50,622 --> 00:00:55,782 Speaker 2: me your Lulu Lemon fled pants. We both agreed that 12 00:00:55,822 --> 00:00:58,182 Speaker 2: they were an elevated active way. 13 00:00:58,102 --> 00:01:02,822 Speaker 1: Look, an elevated pant, the term that fashion needs to be. 14 00:01:04,021 --> 00:01:07,021 Speaker 2: And I bought them. I went and found them like secondhand, A. 15 00:01:07,021 --> 00:01:08,542 Speaker 1: You're wearing your elevated pants. 16 00:01:08,581 --> 00:01:10,222 Speaker 2: I feel solf. 17 00:01:11,182 --> 00:01:14,502 Speaker 1: They're so good because no one knows their leggings except you. 18 00:01:14,822 --> 00:01:16,902 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're my new uniform. 19 00:01:17,102 --> 00:01:20,502 Speaker 1: Like I feel so jens Z like how I'm like 20 00:01:20,582 --> 00:01:23,382 Speaker 1: Billie Eilish, that's same. I feel she has them. 21 00:01:23,462 --> 00:01:24,862 Speaker 2: I'm so bad in them. 22 00:01:24,942 --> 00:01:28,062 Speaker 1: I just we just mixed metaphors there. But let's go with. 23 00:01:28,022 --> 00:01:31,622 Speaker 2: It infinitely cooler, So you are my cool guru. 24 00:01:32,142 --> 00:01:35,222 Speaker 1: Glad people say that to me a lot, actually, And. 25 00:01:35,222 --> 00:01:37,982 Speaker 2: On the show today, one of the most pervasive pieces 26 00:01:38,022 --> 00:01:41,422 Speaker 2: of parenting advice is making everyone feel bad about themselves. 27 00:01:41,702 --> 00:01:44,622 Speaker 2: We've solved the mystery of what happened to the family 28 00:01:44,622 --> 00:01:48,982 Speaker 2: dinner table. Plus Courtney Kardashian thinks school is dated, why 29 00:01:49,022 --> 00:01:53,142 Speaker 2: more kids are being homeschooled than ever before? And Skinny 30 00:01:53,182 --> 00:01:56,782 Speaker 2: Talk Amelia is here to explain the social media phenomenon 31 00:01:57,022 --> 00:01:58,982 Speaker 2: promoting a skinny lifestyle. 32 00:01:59,422 --> 00:02:02,542 Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, Kate Hudson has 33 00:02:02,622 --> 00:02:06,102 Speaker 1: revealed Mindy Kayling was back to work an hour after 34 00:02:06,142 --> 00:02:10,022 Speaker 1: giving birth, which made me feel bad. Hudson, who will 35 00:02:10,061 --> 00:02:12,542 Speaker 1: be forever almost famous to me and I'm assuming to 36 00:02:12,621 --> 00:02:15,821 Speaker 1: you too, Jesse, but is in fact, somehow now forty 37 00:02:15,822 --> 00:02:18,462 Speaker 1: six years old and has three children. She is on 38 00:02:18,502 --> 00:02:20,462 Speaker 1: a press tour with Mindy Kayling and they have a 39 00:02:20,502 --> 00:02:23,462 Speaker 1: new show on Netflix called Running Point. I had to 40 00:02:23,462 --> 00:02:25,582 Speaker 1: look up what this was about. It's apparently about a 41 00:02:25,622 --> 00:02:28,462 Speaker 1: reformed party girl put in charge of her family's pro 42 00:02:28,542 --> 00:02:29,462 Speaker 1: basketball team. 43 00:02:29,942 --> 00:02:31,982 Speaker 2: Apparently it's a lot of fun. It's like a female 44 00:02:32,022 --> 00:02:33,462 Speaker 2: ted LASSI that's what I've med. 45 00:02:33,622 --> 00:02:36,142 Speaker 1: Okay, well, it's not an immediately interesting plot to me, 46 00:02:36,181 --> 00:02:38,062 Speaker 1: I had to admit, but I do love everything Mindy 47 00:02:38,142 --> 00:02:41,782 Speaker 1: Kayling does, and she co created the show. Anyway, Hudson said, 48 00:02:41,942 --> 00:02:44,302 Speaker 1: we had a script she and Mindy at our first 49 00:02:44,302 --> 00:02:47,222 Speaker 1: table read she's on zoom. Then she has a baby 50 00:02:47,262 --> 00:02:49,702 Speaker 1: and is sending notes like an hour after she has 51 00:02:49,742 --> 00:02:53,182 Speaker 1: the baby. I was like, isn't Mindy literally in labor? 52 00:02:53,742 --> 00:02:56,662 Speaker 1: She is a powerhouse and delivers what she's going to deliver. 53 00:02:56,862 --> 00:03:00,542 Speaker 1: Hudson continued, I want to unpack this with you because 54 00:03:00,982 --> 00:03:03,182 Speaker 1: so Mindy Kayling is forty five, she has three children. 55 00:03:03,582 --> 00:03:06,542 Speaker 1: I don't have an issue with Mindy Kayling doing anything 56 00:03:06,582 --> 00:03:09,822 Speaker 1: an hour after giving birth. Godspeed to Mindy Kaling. She's 57 00:03:10,022 --> 00:03:14,022 Speaker 1: an amazing creative woman. But I think what I'm annoyed 58 00:03:14,022 --> 00:03:18,142 Speaker 1: about here is Kate Hudson lionizing the behavior. I think 59 00:03:18,222 --> 00:03:21,182 Speaker 1: that's what annoys me because doesn't it just put pressure 60 00:03:21,222 --> 00:03:24,742 Speaker 1: on other women who have maybe less power, fewer financial 61 00:03:24,782 --> 00:03:27,702 Speaker 1: resources to immediately get back to work after having a 62 00:03:27,702 --> 00:03:28,942 Speaker 1: baby when they hear stuff like this. 63 00:03:29,302 --> 00:03:32,222 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I agree with you. I'm in two minds 64 00:03:32,262 --> 00:03:36,542 Speaker 2: about it because, like you, I think a woman can do. 65 00:03:36,902 --> 00:03:39,182 Speaker 2: I was gonna say whatever she wants post birth probably 66 00:03:39,222 --> 00:03:41,302 Speaker 2: limits on that. I think that she can pick up 67 00:03:41,302 --> 00:03:43,782 Speaker 2: her phone if she wants, right, I've heard. I remember 68 00:03:43,862 --> 00:03:46,822 Speaker 2: Roxy just saying co speaking years ago, she's had two babies, 69 00:03:46,902 --> 00:03:49,582 Speaker 2: and she joked that she took one hour maternity leave, 70 00:03:49,622 --> 00:03:51,862 Speaker 2: and she said she checked her emails laying in the 71 00:03:51,862 --> 00:03:53,662 Speaker 2: hospital bed, and when she was sort of pressed on it, 72 00:03:53,702 --> 00:03:55,822 Speaker 2: she said, the baby was sleeping. I was going to 73 00:03:55,862 --> 00:03:57,342 Speaker 2: turn on the TV. I was going to have a sleeper. 74 00:03:57,382 --> 00:03:59,222 Speaker 2: I was going to open my emails. And I chose that. 75 00:03:59,302 --> 00:04:01,822 Speaker 2: And she's a woman running her own business like you 76 00:04:01,902 --> 00:04:04,782 Speaker 2: do you. I actually find it really infantalizing when people 77 00:04:04,822 --> 00:04:08,022 Speaker 2: tell women what they can and can't do. Yep. But 78 00:04:08,342 --> 00:04:11,422 Speaker 2: I agree that the pressure it then puts on other 79 00:04:12,142 --> 00:04:15,582 Speaker 2: mothers in particular, because let's not pretend like we wouldn't 80 00:04:15,662 --> 00:04:19,062 Speaker 2: have any issue really with a dad checking his emails 81 00:04:19,181 --> 00:04:21,181 Speaker 2: an hour a birth, that doesn't have the same. 82 00:04:21,062 --> 00:04:23,302 Speaker 1: He's probably checking his emails during during. 83 00:04:23,101 --> 00:04:25,622 Speaker 2: Birth, yep, just checking his slack, making sure there's nothing 84 00:04:25,741 --> 00:04:30,462 Speaker 2: urgent coming through. But women, I think we do put 85 00:04:30,501 --> 00:04:34,142 Speaker 2: this pressure on each other. I remember seeing this imagery 86 00:04:34,301 --> 00:04:37,501 Speaker 2: of a woman pumping in the boardroom and that being 87 00:04:37,582 --> 00:04:39,501 Speaker 2: like it was some image that was going around and 88 00:04:39,541 --> 00:04:40,342 Speaker 2: it's like working mother. 89 00:04:40,501 --> 00:04:42,621 Speaker 1: I feel like when I was growing up, that was 90 00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:44,981 Speaker 1: just sort of an image you saw every day. It 91 00:04:45,301 --> 00:04:47,101 Speaker 1: was like in the nineties there was this say, you 92 00:04:47,142 --> 00:04:50,742 Speaker 1: have women in boardrooms pumping, yeah, with babies. 93 00:04:50,421 --> 00:04:53,581 Speaker 2: And I saw that and I felt furious because it 94 00:04:53,662 --> 00:04:55,662 Speaker 2: was like, but I don't want to be pumping in 95 00:04:55,662 --> 00:04:57,541 Speaker 2: a boardroom. I want to be at home with my baby. 96 00:04:57,621 --> 00:05:00,701 Speaker 2: And does that make me less ambitious or less hard working? 97 00:05:00,782 --> 00:05:04,861 Speaker 2: I think when it's used as a proxy for unshakable 98 00:05:04,941 --> 00:05:08,062 Speaker 2: work ethic, it's super, super dangerous because if there's ever 99 00:05:08,101 --> 00:05:11,701 Speaker 2: an excuse to not be on your emails, yeah, surely 100 00:05:11,782 --> 00:05:13,101 Speaker 2: it's when you've had a baby. 101 00:05:13,142 --> 00:05:17,621 Speaker 1: You've dislodged a memory deep within me of a cover 102 00:05:17,861 --> 00:05:21,061 Speaker 1: of a magazine with Rachel McAdams pumping. 103 00:05:21,262 --> 00:05:22,421 Speaker 2: Oh I remember that. 104 00:05:23,101 --> 00:05:25,901 Speaker 1: Now. There's also been covers. For instance, Australian l I 105 00:05:25,902 --> 00:05:27,861 Speaker 1: think was a World Leader in a cover with a 106 00:05:27,861 --> 00:05:31,741 Speaker 1: woman breastfeeding. So I guess I shouldn't have an issue 107 00:05:31,741 --> 00:05:35,181 Speaker 1: with the Rachel McAdams pumping cover. It's certainly not anything prudish, 108 00:05:35,342 --> 00:05:38,622 Speaker 1: but again, it's the sense of why are you multitasking? 109 00:05:39,222 --> 00:05:42,901 Speaker 1: Because now I have to multitask. Isn't it enough to 110 00:05:43,022 --> 00:05:44,821 Speaker 1: just do one thing at a time. 111 00:05:45,022 --> 00:05:47,622 Speaker 2: And the thing with pumping is that it's always it's 112 00:05:47,621 --> 00:05:50,141 Speaker 2: always spilling and you're always running, like that's the imagery 113 00:05:50,181 --> 00:05:54,421 Speaker 2: of the pumping that it's like, now you're not physically bound, 114 00:05:54,941 --> 00:05:56,342 Speaker 2: you too can do a marriage. 115 00:05:56,342 --> 00:05:59,662 Speaker 1: Sorry, do you not run when you pump? That's weird, Jessie. 116 00:06:00,061 --> 00:06:03,381 Speaker 2: It's like, if you do want to sit down, it's lazy. 117 00:06:03,421 --> 00:06:05,821 Speaker 2: And I looked at this story, and I even looked 118 00:06:05,821 --> 00:06:07,981 Speaker 2: at Roxy a little bit more closely, and I thought, 119 00:06:08,501 --> 00:06:11,901 Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone here is actually telling us 120 00:06:12,342 --> 00:06:16,622 Speaker 2: that this is aspirational. But there is this sensitivity when 121 00:06:16,662 --> 00:06:20,342 Speaker 2: it comes to anything motherhood that we internalize it, that 122 00:06:20,381 --> 00:06:22,981 Speaker 2: we immediately go, You've just made me feel bad. 123 00:06:22,861 --> 00:06:25,981 Speaker 1: And specifically the competition element, like this is probably my 124 00:06:26,142 --> 00:06:28,701 Speaker 1: problem more than it is Kate Hudson's. Yeah, yeah, I 125 00:06:28,741 --> 00:06:31,622 Speaker 1: should understand that what Mindy Kayling does after birth has 126 00:06:31,621 --> 00:06:35,341 Speaker 1: nothing to do with me, and yet we're always implicitly comparing. 127 00:06:36,022 --> 00:06:39,821 Speaker 2: One of the most pervasive pieces of parenting advice is 128 00:06:39,902 --> 00:06:42,141 Speaker 2: making people feel bad about themselves, and it's got to 129 00:06:42,142 --> 00:06:45,261 Speaker 2: do with the dinner table. Eating dinner as a family 130 00:06:45,541 --> 00:06:49,022 Speaker 2: is seen as a cornerstone of good parenting. According to 131 00:06:49,061 --> 00:06:52,821 Speaker 2: an article published in Slate last month, Research has linked 132 00:06:52,821 --> 00:06:57,821 Speaker 2: the practice too better nutrition, improved academic performance, decreased depression, anxiety, 133 00:06:57,861 --> 00:07:01,782 Speaker 2: and kids improve communication. I could go on, but the 134 00:07:01,821 --> 00:07:04,981 Speaker 2: author of this article, her name is Dawn t, says 135 00:07:05,061 --> 00:07:08,582 Speaker 2: that in reality, most families just can't make it work. 136 00:07:08,902 --> 00:07:13,422 Speaker 2: In Australia, less than half of families currently eat together. Amelia, 137 00:07:13,622 --> 00:07:16,342 Speaker 2: why do you think this is? On the surface, it 138 00:07:16,342 --> 00:07:17,902 Speaker 2: looks like a relatively simple thing to do. 139 00:07:18,862 --> 00:07:22,902 Speaker 1: I think, Jessie, that this is a real estate story. 140 00:07:23,142 --> 00:07:23,702 Speaker 2: In what way? 141 00:07:23,862 --> 00:07:26,862 Speaker 1: Let me unpack this? Do people even have dining room 142 00:07:26,902 --> 00:07:30,862 Speaker 1: tables anymore? And aren't they doubling mostly as laundry rooms? 143 00:07:31,062 --> 00:07:31,782 Speaker 1: Or is that just me? 144 00:07:32,102 --> 00:07:35,582 Speaker 2: I had my first dining table when I moved into 145 00:07:35,622 --> 00:07:37,742 Speaker 2: a home two months before we had Luna, and my 146 00:07:37,902 --> 00:07:40,062 Speaker 2: twin sister did not have a dining table for the 147 00:07:40,102 --> 00:07:42,462 Speaker 2: first year of her baby's life. 148 00:07:42,502 --> 00:07:44,942 Speaker 1: So did you grow up sitting around the dining room table? Yeah? 149 00:07:45,142 --> 00:07:50,222 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was reading about Actually, they surveyed a 150 00:07:50,262 --> 00:07:52,422 Speaker 2: bunch of millennials about whether you grew up in a 151 00:07:52,462 --> 00:07:54,982 Speaker 2: house or an apartment, and the overwhelming majority was a house, 152 00:07:55,022 --> 00:07:57,581 Speaker 2: not necessarily a big house, not necessarily in a city. 153 00:07:57,902 --> 00:08:00,742 Speaker 2: But there was a house, which meant you had a backyard, 154 00:08:01,302 --> 00:08:05,062 Speaker 2: it meant you didn't have super close neighbors who were 155 00:08:05,062 --> 00:08:09,902 Speaker 2: maybe sensitive to yelling and crying. And now the percentage 156 00:08:10,142 --> 00:08:13,422 Speaker 2: because of high density living in cities, I believe it's 157 00:08:13,462 --> 00:08:14,662 Speaker 2: gone through the roof. 158 00:08:15,102 --> 00:08:18,342 Speaker 1: Yeah. An SPS story basically summed it up with the 159 00:08:18,381 --> 00:08:21,341 Speaker 1: headline raised in a house, but parenting in an apartment. 160 00:08:21,502 --> 00:08:25,222 Speaker 1: That is the experience. It's certainly my experience. And just 161 00:08:25,302 --> 00:08:27,022 Speaker 1: to throw some numbers at you because I thought they 162 00:08:27,062 --> 00:08:29,662 Speaker 1: were really interesting, the number of families with children and 163 00:08:29,702 --> 00:08:33,462 Speaker 1: apartments has increased by fifty six percent from twenty eleven, 164 00:08:33,822 --> 00:08:36,742 Speaker 1: which is huge. Yeah, and then one in five apartments 165 00:08:36,742 --> 00:08:40,302 Speaker 1: now are occupied by a family with children. Certainly, anecdotally, 166 00:08:40,862 --> 00:08:44,662 Speaker 1: almost everyone I know lives in an apartment and yet 167 00:08:44,662 --> 00:08:45,582 Speaker 1: grew up in a house. 168 00:08:45,702 --> 00:08:48,182 Speaker 2: But apartments fundamentally are not built for families. 169 00:08:48,222 --> 00:08:50,702 Speaker 1: They're not. Well, this is what I need to get 170 00:08:50,742 --> 00:08:53,582 Speaker 1: on my high horse about. I think even though Australians 171 00:08:53,582 --> 00:08:55,982 Speaker 1: are now living more and more in apartments and raising 172 00:08:56,062 --> 00:08:58,942 Speaker 1: children and apartments. I don't think that culturally we've caught 173 00:08:59,022 --> 00:09:01,742 Speaker 1: up with this, and I want to mention one particular 174 00:09:01,782 --> 00:09:04,662 Speaker 1: aspect that you touched on before. I think noise is 175 00:09:04,662 --> 00:09:07,062 Speaker 1: a real issue. So i live in an apartment with 176 00:09:07,222 --> 00:09:10,942 Speaker 1: two kids, and I've noticed that I'm not the most 177 00:09:11,022 --> 00:09:14,502 Speaker 1: popular resident of the apartment building. I think that's safe 178 00:09:14,542 --> 00:09:16,422 Speaker 1: to say. I don't think any of them listen to this, 179 00:09:16,622 --> 00:09:18,502 Speaker 1: and I don't think that I need to worry about 180 00:09:18,542 --> 00:09:21,062 Speaker 1: them being offended. I just don't think they like us 181 00:09:21,142 --> 00:09:24,062 Speaker 1: living in the apartment very much. Can talk about the 182 00:09:24,142 --> 00:09:26,862 Speaker 1: various microaggressions, but this is not time for my real 183 00:09:26,982 --> 00:09:29,262 Speaker 1: estate gripes. It's not just in my head, because it 184 00:09:29,262 --> 00:09:33,142 Speaker 1: turns out a twenty eighteen study found that Australians correlate 185 00:09:33,222 --> 00:09:35,862 Speaker 1: being a good neighbor with being a quiet neighbor, which, 186 00:09:35,902 --> 00:09:38,262 Speaker 1: fair enough, I get it, Yeah, quiet neighbors are probably 187 00:09:38,342 --> 00:09:41,422 Speaker 1: better on balance than loud neighbors. But also the survey 188 00:09:41,502 --> 00:09:44,102 Speaker 1: found that people think that children shouldn't be the norm 189 00:09:44,142 --> 00:09:46,222 Speaker 1: in apartments. They think that they shouldn't be noise from 190 00:09:46,262 --> 00:09:50,382 Speaker 1: children in apartments. And so how this changes my parenting 191 00:09:50,462 --> 00:09:53,262 Speaker 1: is that I'm constantly telling my children to speak less loudly. 192 00:09:53,822 --> 00:09:55,782 Speaker 1: The net result is that they actually play less. They 193 00:09:55,782 --> 00:09:59,142 Speaker 1: certainly horse play less because that's very loud. And often 194 00:09:59,222 --> 00:10:01,342 Speaker 1: if I'm really stressed out about the volume, I'll just 195 00:10:01,382 --> 00:10:03,462 Speaker 1: turn on the TV because then I know they won't 196 00:10:03,462 --> 00:10:06,382 Speaker 1: be screaming and running through the apartment playing tip And 197 00:10:06,542 --> 00:10:07,942 Speaker 1: I think that we're seeing the same thing with the 198 00:10:07,982 --> 00:10:11,342 Speaker 1: dinner table idea. We're constantly top that you'll only raise 199 00:10:11,382 --> 00:10:13,822 Speaker 1: good conversation as if you sit down at the dinner table. 200 00:10:13,942 --> 00:10:16,302 Speaker 1: And certainly I was raised sitting at the dinner table 201 00:10:16,342 --> 00:10:19,102 Speaker 1: watching the news every night. I cannot imagine subjecting my 202 00:10:19,182 --> 00:10:21,062 Speaker 1: children to the news in this day and age. But 203 00:10:21,182 --> 00:10:23,862 Speaker 1: the idea of that's what makes you a good parent 204 00:10:24,022 --> 00:10:27,622 Speaker 1: is grounded in an assumption that people are living in houses, 205 00:10:27,782 --> 00:10:28,422 Speaker 1: not flats. 206 00:10:28,782 --> 00:10:32,102 Speaker 2: Exactly right, And I suppose as well, the difference from 207 00:10:32,142 --> 00:10:35,822 Speaker 2: parenting and an apartment is a necessity every single day 208 00:10:35,862 --> 00:10:38,422 Speaker 2: to get out of the house. There is no like 209 00:10:38,502 --> 00:10:42,062 Speaker 2: they talk about how important it is to know, not supervise, 210 00:10:42,142 --> 00:10:45,862 Speaker 2: and to let kids sort of play and explore. When 211 00:10:45,902 --> 00:10:48,381 Speaker 2: you've got an apartment that's for square meters, there'n't a 212 00:10:48,422 --> 00:10:51,142 Speaker 2: lot of places to explore, and I was reading about 213 00:10:51,142 --> 00:10:55,222 Speaker 2: how in Singapore, for example, they open up public schools 214 00:10:55,702 --> 00:10:58,582 Speaker 2: after school hours and stuff so that parents, because let's 215 00:10:58,662 --> 00:11:00,662 Speaker 2: not pretend like Australia is the only place with high 216 00:11:00,662 --> 00:11:04,582 Speaker 2: density living right like France, China, Singapore is one of them, 217 00:11:05,062 --> 00:11:08,742 Speaker 2: and so they've found ways to make communal green space 218 00:11:08,782 --> 00:11:13,142 Speaker 2: where people can go and play. And Australia or the cities, 219 00:11:13,862 --> 00:11:15,262 Speaker 2: it really depends on your subit. 220 00:11:15,622 --> 00:11:18,302 Speaker 1: This was something that really surprised me when I moved 221 00:11:18,342 --> 00:11:20,862 Speaker 1: back to Australia last year after many years in the US. 222 00:11:20,982 --> 00:11:25,022 Speaker 1: Public schools in the US routinely are open after school, 223 00:11:25,062 --> 00:11:27,982 Speaker 1: before school, and on the weekends they're just not closed 224 00:11:28,182 --> 00:11:30,022 Speaker 1: so you can take your kid in and play on 225 00:11:30,022 --> 00:11:33,062 Speaker 1: the playground equipment. Here, I was shocked by this notion 226 00:11:33,182 --> 00:11:35,942 Speaker 1: that when school ends, the gates close and you can't 227 00:11:36,022 --> 00:11:38,742 Speaker 1: use the playground, and it feels like a waste of 228 00:11:38,782 --> 00:11:41,742 Speaker 1: space because you've got all these areas for kids to play, 229 00:11:41,782 --> 00:11:44,342 Speaker 1: and it also again feels like it's a relic from 230 00:11:44,342 --> 00:11:46,982 Speaker 1: a time when kids went home from school and maybe 231 00:11:47,022 --> 00:11:49,381 Speaker 1: frolicked around the yard like chickens. We don't have a 232 00:11:49,502 --> 00:11:50,262 Speaker 1: yard now. 233 00:11:50,102 --> 00:11:52,302 Speaker 2: Most people din't it makes a really big difference. But 234 00:11:52,422 --> 00:11:55,982 Speaker 2: back to the dinner table example, I think even people 235 00:11:56,302 --> 00:11:59,262 Speaker 2: who live in homes or who do have dining tables, 236 00:11:59,262 --> 00:12:00,942 Speaker 2: and I think the apartment thing is that up and 237 00:12:01,022 --> 00:12:03,382 Speaker 2: it's too small for a dining table, or they've got 238 00:12:03,462 --> 00:12:05,942 Speaker 2: like built in benches, so the bench is kind of 239 00:12:06,342 --> 00:12:09,342 Speaker 2: the hub. But I think the way our homes have changed, 240 00:12:09,342 --> 00:12:11,382 Speaker 2: it's at the centerpiece of the house is now the 241 00:12:11,382 --> 00:12:14,782 Speaker 2: living room with the television. So true, and so screens 242 00:12:14,982 --> 00:12:18,742 Speaker 2: have stolen the time that we would ordinarily sit around 243 00:12:18,782 --> 00:12:22,902 Speaker 2: and have a chat. Maybe, and that's not like we 244 00:12:22,942 --> 00:12:26,142 Speaker 2: don't value that as much, or because we are living 245 00:12:26,222 --> 00:12:30,782 Speaker 2: in small or smaller places, the dining table has become 246 00:12:30,782 --> 00:12:32,182 Speaker 2: a place with just a lot of crap on it. 247 00:12:32,182 --> 00:12:34,302 Speaker 2: So it could be where you work during the day, 248 00:12:34,342 --> 00:12:36,942 Speaker 2: if you're working remotely. It could be homework. It could 249 00:12:36,982 --> 00:12:40,142 Speaker 2: be laundry because I don't have a laundry, like we 250 00:12:40,222 --> 00:12:43,342 Speaker 2: have to put it somewhere. The other thing I thought, Amelia, 251 00:12:43,382 --> 00:12:44,982 Speaker 2: and I wanted to know whether you feel the same 252 00:12:45,102 --> 00:12:47,942 Speaker 2: when I now picture a family sitting around at dinner table, 253 00:12:48,462 --> 00:12:52,502 Speaker 2: do you see that as class coded because I see 254 00:12:52,502 --> 00:12:56,542 Speaker 2: it as a sign of money. Yes, Like because you've 255 00:12:56,582 --> 00:13:00,022 Speaker 2: got both parents at home at six pm, which is 256 00:13:00,262 --> 00:13:02,622 Speaker 2: I would say, pretty rare. You've got someone who's made 257 00:13:02,622 --> 00:13:05,702 Speaker 2: the meal, but four six pm, or maybe you've got 258 00:13:05,822 --> 00:13:10,342 Speaker 2: help who's made the meal. But when I see that image, go, oh, 259 00:13:10,462 --> 00:13:12,862 Speaker 2: that's become really loaded with class for me. 260 00:13:13,022 --> 00:13:16,462 Speaker 1: You're so right, because there's a fundamental physics problem in 261 00:13:16,862 --> 00:13:20,502 Speaker 1: getting a hot meal on a table at the time 262 00:13:20,582 --> 00:13:23,342 Speaker 1: that children want to eat it when we're all working 263 00:13:23,622 --> 00:13:25,502 Speaker 1: around the clock. How does that work? 264 00:13:25,782 --> 00:13:27,422 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's like an impossible equation. 265 00:13:27,662 --> 00:13:30,582 Speaker 1: And so this idea of having the space for the 266 00:13:30,662 --> 00:13:34,502 Speaker 1: dining room table, having the parents who have divided the 267 00:13:34,622 --> 00:13:38,102 Speaker 1: labor of such that someone's made the meal or they, 268 00:13:38,302 --> 00:13:41,262 Speaker 1: as you say, assigned that to someone else, and then 269 00:13:41,622 --> 00:13:44,062 Speaker 1: having you all sit around the table, Yeah, it does 270 00:13:44,142 --> 00:13:46,102 Speaker 1: feel like a luxury in this day and age. But 271 00:13:46,182 --> 00:13:48,342 Speaker 1: I wonder do you think we should be worried about 272 00:13:48,382 --> 00:13:51,302 Speaker 1: this or do you think that the studies themselves are 273 00:13:51,382 --> 00:13:52,582 Speaker 1: kind of caught in the past. 274 00:13:53,022 --> 00:13:55,582 Speaker 2: Look, I think ideally it would be really good for us. 275 00:13:55,742 --> 00:13:59,622 Speaker 2: I think it would because in terms of nutrition and mindfulness, 276 00:13:59,622 --> 00:14:01,902 Speaker 2: when you're eating, it is better to not be looking 277 00:14:01,942 --> 00:14:03,822 Speaker 2: at a screen. I say, this is someone who often 278 00:14:03,822 --> 00:14:06,261 Speaker 2: eats in front of a screen. And the second thing 279 00:14:06,342 --> 00:14:11,702 Speaker 2: is I was reading about how evolutionarily we tend to 280 00:14:11,782 --> 00:14:14,902 Speaker 2: trust people we eat with. It's like a programmed thing. 281 00:14:15,102 --> 00:14:18,862 Speaker 2: That's like there's a sense of connection we feel equal to. 282 00:14:19,422 --> 00:14:23,462 Speaker 2: It is hardwired into us that something social happens when 283 00:14:23,462 --> 00:14:26,102 Speaker 2: we eat, Like, for example, if you're doing a business negotiation, 284 00:14:26,182 --> 00:14:28,342 Speaker 2: you have snacks on the table, it's more likely to 285 00:14:28,382 --> 00:14:31,782 Speaker 2: go well. So that's hardwired into us. And I think 286 00:14:31,822 --> 00:14:34,062 Speaker 2: that that connection even growing up. I think they're some 287 00:14:34,142 --> 00:14:36,262 Speaker 2: of my favorite memories. So I keep going, I'll do 288 00:14:36,302 --> 00:14:39,622 Speaker 2: it eventually, I'll do it eventually. It's aspirational, it's a 289 00:14:39,662 --> 00:14:44,102 Speaker 2: work in progress. Courtney kutashi In, the forty six year 290 00:14:44,142 --> 00:14:47,302 Speaker 2: old reality star and mum of four biological children and 291 00:14:47,302 --> 00:14:51,022 Speaker 2: two step kids, says going to school is dated and 292 00:14:51,142 --> 00:14:51,902 Speaker 2: let me explain. 293 00:14:52,822 --> 00:14:52,942 Speaker 1: So. 294 00:14:52,982 --> 00:14:55,982 Speaker 2: She was recently on her sister Chloe's podcast and said 295 00:14:56,022 --> 00:14:59,502 Speaker 2: she has a rebel streak that includes questioning the purpose 296 00:14:59,582 --> 00:15:02,622 Speaker 2: of sending her kids to school. Apparently her kids started 297 00:15:02,702 --> 00:15:06,182 Speaker 2: sending her videos of successful people. She didn't quantify that. 298 00:15:06,222 --> 00:15:08,662 Speaker 2: I don't know what her definition is. I'm gonna say 299 00:15:08,662 --> 00:15:11,622 Speaker 2: that's coded for rich saying that their kids will never 300 00:15:11,662 --> 00:15:14,702 Speaker 2: go to school, And when she really grappled with what 301 00:15:14,862 --> 00:15:18,102 Speaker 2: the goal was, she agreed that it was unnecessary and 302 00:15:18,182 --> 00:15:22,862 Speaker 2: decided to homeschool, and Chloe enthusiastically agreed. Now, there are 303 00:15:23,062 --> 00:15:26,142 Speaker 2: a myriad of reasons why you at homeschool your children. 304 00:15:26,462 --> 00:15:29,822 Speaker 2: But Amelia, do you think it's possible that Courtney just 305 00:15:29,862 --> 00:15:31,782 Speaker 2: got played by her kids who didn't want to go 306 00:15:31,822 --> 00:15:32,622 Speaker 2: to school next week? 307 00:15:32,822 --> 00:15:35,462 Speaker 1: I am intrigued by this notion of the videos of 308 00:15:35,582 --> 00:15:40,422 Speaker 1: successful people saying the kids will never go to school. Look, 309 00:15:40,502 --> 00:15:42,742 Speaker 1: I think this is part of a trend that has 310 00:15:42,782 --> 00:15:46,302 Speaker 1: come out of the US post COVID, and I'm actually 311 00:15:46,342 --> 00:15:49,942 Speaker 1: surprised that this trend has taken so long to make waves. Basically, 312 00:15:50,222 --> 00:15:53,342 Speaker 1: I think that as society becomes less equal, as the 313 00:15:53,502 --> 00:15:56,222 Speaker 1: very rich become not just very rich, but sort of 314 00:15:56,262 --> 00:16:00,662 Speaker 1: gluttonously extravagantly rich, there's no wonder they've decided school is 315 00:16:00,702 --> 00:16:03,782 Speaker 1: not for them. School is a fundamental leveling field. It's 316 00:16:03,782 --> 00:16:06,302 Speaker 1: a place where all children are meant to go to 317 00:16:06,382 --> 00:16:08,982 Speaker 1: learn the same things. And it's actually surprising that we've 318 00:16:08,982 --> 00:16:11,982 Speaker 1: managed a whole onto this kind of egalitarian institution for 319 00:16:12,022 --> 00:16:14,902 Speaker 1: as long as we have in such a stratified society. 320 00:16:15,222 --> 00:16:17,902 Speaker 2: So in Courtney's defense, does it kind of not matter 321 00:16:17,902 --> 00:16:20,622 Speaker 2: if her kids go to school? Like for the rest 322 00:16:20,622 --> 00:16:23,302 Speaker 2: of us, it does matter because it is a great equalizer. 323 00:16:23,742 --> 00:16:27,462 Speaker 2: But if you are the child of Kourtney Kardashian, maybe 324 00:16:27,502 --> 00:16:29,822 Speaker 2: you don't need that. Maybe you don't need that background. 325 00:16:29,902 --> 00:16:32,302 Speaker 1: Well, now that we have this phrase generational wealth in 326 00:16:32,342 --> 00:16:35,222 Speaker 1: the language, I guess it doesn't really matter from a 327 00:16:35,662 --> 00:16:38,942 Speaker 1: financial perspective. But I think that once the rich start 328 00:16:38,982 --> 00:16:42,062 Speaker 1: pulling their kids from school, the institution starts to crumble. 329 00:16:42,102 --> 00:16:44,822 Speaker 1: I'm very worried about this. We've seen it also in 330 00:16:44,862 --> 00:16:47,822 Speaker 1: the US, with the way that Silicon Valley has rejected 331 00:16:47,862 --> 00:16:51,022 Speaker 1: the idea of higher education and of university. They've decided 332 00:16:51,022 --> 00:16:53,702 Speaker 1: that you don't need to go to university at all, 333 00:16:53,862 --> 00:16:56,862 Speaker 1: no matter what. It's a waste of time, it's indoctrinating 334 00:16:56,902 --> 00:16:59,982 Speaker 1: you and certain sort of center left ideological beliefs that 335 00:16:59,982 --> 00:17:02,862 Speaker 1: they don't approve of. Now they've come for school. It's 336 00:17:02,902 --> 00:17:04,262 Speaker 1: all part of the same movement. 337 00:17:04,502 --> 00:17:09,141 Speaker 2: There's obviously been this widespread rejection of institutions, some of 338 00:17:09,182 --> 00:17:12,342 Speaker 2: it which is really understandable. For example, the Catholic Church 339 00:17:12,542 --> 00:17:16,542 Speaker 2: that have been criticized, and understandably people are moving away. 340 00:17:17,022 --> 00:17:23,621 Speaker 2: But there's also this rejection of education, of the scientific method, 341 00:17:24,182 --> 00:17:29,421 Speaker 2: of academia, of studies, of any sort of rigor to 342 00:17:29,942 --> 00:17:32,341 Speaker 2: the ideas that we put forward. And I wonder if 343 00:17:32,381 --> 00:17:35,101 Speaker 2: this is the beginning of the end in terms of 344 00:17:35,141 --> 00:17:38,101 Speaker 2: any sort of enlightenment ideals like it is worth reading 345 00:17:38,101 --> 00:17:41,222 Speaker 2: what other people say so that you can evolve how 346 00:17:41,262 --> 00:17:41,742 Speaker 2: you'd think. 347 00:17:41,861 --> 00:17:45,022 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fundamentally anti intellectual. And I think that what 348 00:17:45,302 --> 00:17:47,181 Speaker 1: is of a piece with it is the Robert F. 349 00:17:47,262 --> 00:17:51,302 Speaker 1: Kennedy Make America Healthy Again movement, This idea that the 350 00:17:51,381 --> 00:17:55,062 Speaker 1: scientists might say that vaccines are worthwhile and that fluoride 351 00:17:55,302 --> 00:17:58,502 Speaker 1: makes your teams stronger, but what do they know. I'm 352 00:17:58,581 --> 00:18:02,701 Speaker 1: sure that Courtney Kardashian is sympathetic to that kind of 353 00:18:02,821 --> 00:18:06,101 Speaker 1: quasi scientific thinking as well. It's really a rejection not 354 00:18:06,182 --> 00:18:08,262 Speaker 1: just of education, but of expertise. 355 00:18:08,702 --> 00:18:11,742 Speaker 2: Yes, and the reject of that expertise doesn't hurt the 356 00:18:11,821 --> 00:18:15,061 Speaker 2: Kurtney Kardashians. It hurts the people who don't get the 357 00:18:15,141 --> 00:18:19,981 Speaker 2: vaccination and have comobidities and are black or Hispanic and 358 00:18:20,222 --> 00:18:22,582 Speaker 2: have you know, a number of things that would make 359 00:18:22,581 --> 00:18:26,262 Speaker 2: them particularly vulnerable to an illness, right, and that's what 360 00:18:26,381 --> 00:18:30,462 Speaker 2: I think. Hearing her talk about that, I agree, made 361 00:18:30,542 --> 00:18:34,142 Speaker 2: me worried. And I agree as well that this has 362 00:18:34,182 --> 00:18:36,701 Speaker 2: a lot to do with the pandemic because in Australia, 363 00:18:36,742 --> 00:18:41,101 Speaker 2: if you look at homeschooling rates, absenteeism, which we should 364 00:18:41,101 --> 00:18:43,821 Speaker 2: say are not the same thing, but absenteeism school refusal, 365 00:18:44,581 --> 00:18:49,542 Speaker 2: they've gone through the roof and experts have said they 366 00:18:49,661 --> 00:18:54,261 Speaker 2: think that COVID made parents see schooling as something that 367 00:18:54,302 --> 00:18:57,061 Speaker 2: could be done from home. So in the same way 368 00:18:57,061 --> 00:18:59,942 Speaker 2: that working from home became something all employees went, well, 369 00:18:59,982 --> 00:19:02,982 Speaker 2: it's possible, you just sent us home. If they saw 370 00:19:03,022 --> 00:19:05,222 Speaker 2: that as something that worked for them or was even 371 00:19:05,222 --> 00:19:08,342 Speaker 2: a possibility, then suddenly you've got literally there are more 372 00:19:08,341 --> 00:19:10,941 Speaker 2: Australians being homeschooled than before. And they say that's a 373 00:19:10,982 --> 00:19:14,941 Speaker 2: result of things like bullying, of obviously the increase in 374 00:19:15,061 --> 00:19:18,142 Speaker 2: tech that it can be done, and also of safety 375 00:19:18,262 --> 00:19:21,022 Speaker 2: like them not feeling safe at school, which I think 376 00:19:21,141 --> 00:19:25,942 Speaker 2: is everyone's prerogative. And also homeschooling is a lot higher 377 00:19:26,022 --> 00:19:29,141 Speaker 2: among people with an autism diagnosis or an ADHD diagnosis. 378 00:19:29,341 --> 00:19:31,101 Speaker 2: Maybe there's also a discussion to be had about the 379 00:19:31,101 --> 00:19:34,942 Speaker 2: failings of some schools to cater to those diverse needs. 380 00:19:34,661 --> 00:19:38,381 Speaker 1: And specifically the underfunding of public education around the country 381 00:19:38,422 --> 00:19:41,302 Speaker 1: as well. I've heard similar things from friends in the US. 382 00:19:41,341 --> 00:19:44,181 Speaker 1: I have a friend in a US state that is 383 00:19:44,302 --> 00:19:49,341 Speaker 1: very religious and she has to homeschool her child because 384 00:19:49,381 --> 00:19:51,901 Speaker 1: they do not have a lot of schools to choose 385 00:19:51,901 --> 00:19:55,381 Speaker 1: from around and her child has many additional needs that 386 00:19:56,022 --> 00:19:58,222 Speaker 1: the local schools were just not really able to meet, 387 00:19:58,621 --> 00:20:02,341 Speaker 1: so they made the decision to hire a private tutor 388 00:20:02,381 --> 00:20:05,942 Speaker 1: and homeschool their child. When she went to the local 389 00:20:06,222 --> 00:20:09,941 Speaker 1: town office to put in the application to homes school, 390 00:20:09,982 --> 00:20:12,861 Speaker 1: she was shocked by how easy it was to say 391 00:20:12,861 --> 00:20:14,901 Speaker 1: that you're going to homeschool your child and how little 392 00:20:14,942 --> 00:20:19,022 Speaker 1: supervision was applied to this process. So she basically filled 393 00:20:19,022 --> 00:20:22,381 Speaker 1: in a one page form that asked her very little 394 00:20:22,381 --> 00:20:24,542 Speaker 1: about what she was going to teach, didn't provide her 395 00:20:24,542 --> 00:20:27,941 Speaker 1: with any resources visa VIE, curriculum or anything else. She 396 00:20:28,061 --> 00:20:30,742 Speaker 1: essentially just had to say I want to homeschool my child. 397 00:20:30,821 --> 00:20:32,742 Speaker 1: I don't need to tell you the reasons, and then 398 00:20:32,982 --> 00:20:36,382 Speaker 1: got approved for it. And it was really viscerally upsetting 399 00:20:36,422 --> 00:20:39,022 Speaker 1: to her because while she's going to be making sure 400 00:20:39,061 --> 00:20:42,581 Speaker 1: that her child is meeting the state curriculum requirements and 401 00:20:42,661 --> 00:20:44,661 Speaker 1: has been in a position where she can hire a 402 00:20:44,702 --> 00:20:47,421 Speaker 1: tutor who she feels really confident in that can educate 403 00:20:47,422 --> 00:20:50,621 Speaker 1: her child properly. There are many people in this state 404 00:20:50,661 --> 00:20:55,302 Speaker 1: who clearly have parents who are not necessarily trying to 405 00:20:55,381 --> 00:20:58,061 Speaker 1: check all those boxes and are doing it because they 406 00:20:58,061 --> 00:21:01,462 Speaker 1: don't want them to be exposed to a mainstream school curriculum. 407 00:21:01,502 --> 00:21:05,222 Speaker 1: And that's really concerning to me. Yeah, yeah, I agree. 408 00:21:05,302 --> 00:21:09,021 Speaker 2: And that speaks to the Courtney Kardashian example too, because 409 00:21:09,621 --> 00:21:12,101 Speaker 2: I don't think any of us would imagine that Courtney 410 00:21:12,182 --> 00:21:13,941 Speaker 2: is going to sit at home and teach maths like 411 00:21:14,061 --> 00:21:16,581 Speaker 2: that's access to a private tutor, which is again like 412 00:21:17,182 --> 00:21:20,981 Speaker 2: something that's on offer to some families and not to others. 413 00:21:21,702 --> 00:21:24,622 Speaker 2: Another thing that I've heard everyone in my family, teachers 414 00:21:25,101 --> 00:21:29,061 Speaker 2: and both my parents spoke about an enormous rise in 415 00:21:29,101 --> 00:21:33,982 Speaker 2: this school refusal phenomenon after COVID. It's been almost rebranded 416 00:21:34,022 --> 00:21:37,462 Speaker 2: by some people in the space as school can't because 417 00:21:37,542 --> 00:21:40,621 Speaker 2: they say refusal suggests they're making a decision, and these 418 00:21:40,661 --> 00:21:44,421 Speaker 2: are kids who cannot go to school, and so all 419 00:21:44,502 --> 00:21:46,621 Speaker 2: these psychologists are trying to work out what to do, 420 00:21:46,661 --> 00:21:48,782 Speaker 2: because in Australia you have to go to school, like 421 00:21:48,821 --> 00:21:51,222 Speaker 2: there are repercussions and the school has to get involved, 422 00:21:51,262 --> 00:21:54,221 Speaker 2: and it can be really complicated. I would look at 423 00:21:54,222 --> 00:21:56,741 Speaker 2: these stories and kind of go, all right, there were 424 00:21:56,821 --> 00:21:58,542 Speaker 2: days I didn't want to go to school either, like 425 00:21:58,621 --> 00:22:00,981 Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of empathy for it. And 426 00:22:01,262 --> 00:22:04,022 Speaker 2: Dad told me this story about a kid, the poor 427 00:22:04,061 --> 00:22:06,782 Speaker 2: mother just putting the kid in the car, and Dad's 428 00:22:06,821 --> 00:22:09,181 Speaker 2: standing there and the mother just trying to pull him 429 00:22:09,182 --> 00:22:11,141 Speaker 2: by his ankles and being like, you have to go 430 00:22:11,141 --> 00:22:14,741 Speaker 2: to school, this is so important, and the kid just couldn't, like, 431 00:22:14,901 --> 00:22:16,742 Speaker 2: couldn't go into the classroom. 432 00:22:16,861 --> 00:22:18,022 Speaker 1: This is a post COVID study. 433 00:22:18,101 --> 00:22:21,621 Speaker 2: This is a post COVID story. And the numbers nearly 434 00:22:21,702 --> 00:22:24,381 Speaker 2: half of all students missed ten percent of school in 435 00:22:24,381 --> 00:22:28,502 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so that's actually quite a lot. The 436 00:22:28,542 --> 00:22:33,782 Speaker 2: sick days thing is becoming more and more prominent, which 437 00:22:33,821 --> 00:22:36,381 Speaker 2: I guess is probably to do with screens. But again 438 00:22:37,061 --> 00:22:40,702 Speaker 2: the idea that it's optional. When something becomes optional as well, 439 00:22:40,742 --> 00:22:44,022 Speaker 2: then I suppose you go I'm not going to go today. 440 00:22:44,341 --> 00:22:47,821 Speaker 1: I was surprised when I started my kids at their 441 00:22:47,861 --> 00:22:51,862 Speaker 1: school that they still give out prizes for best attendancy. 442 00:22:51,982 --> 00:22:56,542 Speaker 2: Yes, that's controversial, contras, I can see why, because kids 443 00:22:56,581 --> 00:22:58,101 Speaker 2: can't help it when they get sick. 444 00:22:58,462 --> 00:23:01,782 Speaker 1: Do we learn nothing from COVID? I'm just really surprised. 445 00:23:02,061 --> 00:23:04,461 Speaker 1: Why do you think schools I mean, I guess I'm 446 00:23:04,502 --> 00:23:06,381 Speaker 1: going to answer something own question here. I think schools 447 00:23:06,381 --> 00:23:09,902 Speaker 1: are persisting with that idea of perfect intendance and rewarding 448 00:23:10,101 --> 00:23:12,422 Speaker 1: kids who make it into school the most because they're 449 00:23:12,462 --> 00:23:16,901 Speaker 1: seeing this trend of school refusal or school can't and 450 00:23:16,942 --> 00:23:19,741 Speaker 1: they want to hammer home what an example of a 451 00:23:19,821 --> 00:23:21,022 Speaker 1: kid showing up every day. 452 00:23:20,861 --> 00:23:22,821 Speaker 2: Looks like and the importance of sitting in the classroom, 453 00:23:22,861 --> 00:23:25,421 Speaker 2: because my parents would say that, you know, you might 454 00:23:25,462 --> 00:23:26,982 Speaker 2: look at your nine, or you might look at your 455 00:23:27,022 --> 00:23:30,462 Speaker 2: five and go, come on, what's a day? But if 456 00:23:30,502 --> 00:23:34,542 Speaker 2: you repeatedly miss that, there are certain blocks in learning 457 00:23:34,782 --> 00:23:37,061 Speaker 2: that are very difficult to catch up on. So there 458 00:23:37,101 --> 00:23:38,701 Speaker 2: is something that you will learn in year five. I'm 459 00:23:38,742 --> 00:23:40,341 Speaker 2: not saying on one day. I'm just saying, like, if 460 00:23:40,381 --> 00:23:42,861 Speaker 2: you you know, and people who have had a prolonged 461 00:23:42,861 --> 00:23:45,341 Speaker 2: illness will know this, you miss that and it become 462 00:23:45,542 --> 00:23:47,262 Speaker 2: very hard to catch up in year six or year seven. 463 00:23:47,381 --> 00:23:50,422 Speaker 2: So I suppose it is like, if you're on the fence, 464 00:23:50,581 --> 00:23:54,581 Speaker 2: go but presentee, is there more forcing that also isn't 465 00:23:54,621 --> 00:23:55,061 Speaker 2: the ideal? 466 00:23:55,462 --> 00:23:57,302 Speaker 1: Yes, So I guess we're kind of talking about a 467 00:23:57,341 --> 00:24:01,742 Speaker 1: few different things here. One is the rise of homeschooling, 468 00:24:01,821 --> 00:24:06,061 Speaker 1: which I think we can attribute to the general decline 469 00:24:06,061 --> 00:24:09,942 Speaker 1: of trust in authority and expertise post COVID, and it's 470 00:24:10,061 --> 00:24:12,302 Speaker 1: right now. It's being led by very wealthy people, I 471 00:24:12,302 --> 00:24:14,582 Speaker 1: would say, who want to control what their children learn 472 00:24:14,702 --> 00:24:16,101 Speaker 1: and are maybe not very interested. 473 00:24:16,462 --> 00:24:18,741 Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, people with kids with 474 00:24:18,901 --> 00:24:22,342 Speaker 2: different needs. I think that's the other group. Yeah, we've 475 00:24:22,381 --> 00:24:25,581 Speaker 2: probably got to acknowledge and in fact, for them, the 476 00:24:25,661 --> 00:24:27,502 Speaker 2: outcomes are really good. 477 00:24:28,821 --> 00:24:31,542 Speaker 1: Liv Schmidt is a twenty three year old model in 478 00:24:31,581 --> 00:24:34,542 Speaker 1: New York City who makes her money encouraging women and 479 00:24:34,581 --> 00:24:38,502 Speaker 1: girls to follow the skinny lifestyle. This was a story 480 00:24:38,581 --> 00:24:41,861 Speaker 1: in The Cut last week that is causing people to 481 00:24:41,942 --> 00:24:45,061 Speaker 1: lose their minds. Basically I knew nothing about this, but 482 00:24:45,141 --> 00:24:47,741 Speaker 1: Live Schmidt. She was on TikTok until last year, then 483 00:24:47,782 --> 00:24:50,581 Speaker 1: she was banned after a Wall Street Journal article. Now 484 00:24:50,621 --> 00:24:53,782 Speaker 1: she's on Instagram. She's just been banned from Instagram as 485 00:24:53,782 --> 00:24:57,702 Speaker 1: a result of this article. Basically she mocks women who 486 00:24:57,742 --> 00:25:01,702 Speaker 1: she says are large and fat. She posts videos where 487 00:25:01,742 --> 00:25:04,861 Speaker 1: she says things like girls be three hundred pounds, saying 488 00:25:05,022 --> 00:25:09,141 Speaker 1: I'm a snack. No Megatron, you're the fkn vending machine. 489 00:25:09,661 --> 00:25:12,421 Speaker 1: So just really nice things like that. She has a 490 00:25:12,422 --> 00:25:17,662 Speaker 1: subscription only group called Skinny Society, which, for twenty dollars 491 00:25:17,702 --> 00:25:21,742 Speaker 1: a month, members gain access to exclusive content, including recipes, 492 00:25:21,782 --> 00:25:25,702 Speaker 1: workout videos, and diaries of everything Schmid eats in one day. 493 00:25:26,502 --> 00:25:29,901 Speaker 1: She gained some notoriety recently because she said that instead 494 00:25:29,942 --> 00:25:35,221 Speaker 1: of having dessert, you could swallow your boyfriend's semen, and 495 00:25:35,262 --> 00:25:37,941 Speaker 1: she said that semen's only something like five calories of 496 00:25:38,022 --> 00:25:40,821 Speaker 1: tea spoon, so that's good to know. There's also a 497 00:25:40,821 --> 00:25:43,701 Speaker 1: group dm thread that you get access to where people 498 00:25:43,742 --> 00:25:48,181 Speaker 1: basically egg themselves on to eat less. And it's just 499 00:25:48,302 --> 00:25:52,782 Speaker 1: really distressing to read about airmail. The publication Airmail recently 500 00:25:52,861 --> 00:25:55,422 Speaker 1: estimated that she makes one hundred and thirty thousand US 501 00:25:55,462 --> 00:25:57,621 Speaker 1: dollars a month from the six and a half thousand 502 00:25:57,702 --> 00:26:02,142 Speaker 1: members in the Skinny Society. So look, I think why 503 00:26:02,182 --> 00:26:05,462 Speaker 1: this article made such a splash is that people definitely 504 00:26:05,502 --> 00:26:09,302 Speaker 1: did not realize how thriving this somewhat underground community is 505 00:26:09,702 --> 00:26:12,982 Speaker 1: because as shown by the fact that TikTok and Meta 506 00:26:13,022 --> 00:26:15,861 Speaker 1: both had to ban her after news articles came out, 507 00:26:15,942 --> 00:26:19,342 Speaker 1: so clearly they're not moderating their platforms very well. If 508 00:26:19,341 --> 00:26:22,421 Speaker 1: you search skinny or skinny talk on TikTok and Instagram, 509 00:26:22,581 --> 00:26:25,821 Speaker 1: you'll apparently see thousands of videos along these lines of 510 00:26:25,982 --> 00:26:30,341 Speaker 1: very thin women showing off their locale diets. What's interesting 511 00:26:30,381 --> 00:26:33,262 Speaker 1: about liv Schmidt to me, having lived through the nineties 512 00:26:33,302 --> 00:26:36,502 Speaker 1: and Kate Moss and heroin Chic, is that she's very 513 00:26:36,542 --> 00:26:41,262 Speaker 1: careful not to advocate for particular foods, particular diets. She 514 00:26:41,381 --> 00:26:44,942 Speaker 1: frames it all in this sort of faux feminist empowering language. 515 00:26:44,982 --> 00:26:47,662 Speaker 1: She says things like eat like you're the main character, 516 00:26:47,782 --> 00:26:51,221 Speaker 1: because you are. She says, eat like your highest self 517 00:26:51,341 --> 00:26:55,742 Speaker 1: is watching. So it's a very interesting kind of twist 518 00:26:55,942 --> 00:27:00,102 Speaker 1: on that feminist rhetoric to basically further eating disorders. And 519 00:27:00,262 --> 00:27:03,141 Speaker 1: the Cut article found evidence of girls in high school 520 00:27:03,182 --> 00:27:07,142 Speaker 1: posting on skinny society, including about how thin they were 521 00:27:07,581 --> 00:27:11,502 Speaker 1: for their graduations. Shocked by this, but maybe that's because 522 00:27:11,502 --> 00:27:14,821 Speaker 1: I'm not super immersed in social media, Jesse. How did 523 00:27:14,821 --> 00:27:17,582 Speaker 1: this article make you feel. Were you shocked by it? 524 00:27:17,942 --> 00:27:22,181 Speaker 2: I was because I'm not being served this. But then 525 00:27:22,222 --> 00:27:24,821 Speaker 2: the way the algorithms work, the people who will be 526 00:27:24,861 --> 00:27:28,542 Speaker 2: most sensitive to it will And maybe it's easy for 527 00:27:28,621 --> 00:27:31,701 Speaker 2: us to assume that the culture has shifted. But I 528 00:27:32,061 --> 00:27:35,181 Speaker 2: was at something a few weeks ago where it was 529 00:27:35,222 --> 00:27:37,221 Speaker 2: like a kid's fun day thing, right, and there was 530 00:27:37,262 --> 00:27:39,221 Speaker 2: like an obstacle course, and there was a jumping castle 531 00:27:39,222 --> 00:27:42,782 Speaker 2: and there was face painting, and in the obstacle course 532 00:27:42,901 --> 00:27:46,582 Speaker 2: there was a tunnel thing, you know, kids like run 533 00:27:46,621 --> 00:27:48,941 Speaker 2: through these little tunnels. And there was a girl, she 534 00:27:49,061 --> 00:27:52,462 Speaker 2: might have been six or seven, and she was standing 535 00:27:52,502 --> 00:27:55,182 Speaker 2: there and her friend said, why aren't you going through 536 00:27:55,182 --> 00:27:57,461 Speaker 2: the tunnel like because she hadn't been doing it, and 537 00:27:57,502 --> 00:28:00,821 Speaker 2: she said, I can't fit through the tunnel. I'm too fat. 538 00:28:01,341 --> 00:28:04,942 Speaker 2: And the look on this girl's face, I went, Oh, 539 00:28:04,982 --> 00:28:07,422 Speaker 2: I thought that didn't happen anything. Yes, I thought that 540 00:28:07,422 --> 00:28:09,502 Speaker 2: that's not how we spoke exactly. It wasn't that she 541 00:28:09,621 --> 00:28:11,302 Speaker 2: said I can't fit, because she could have gone I'm 542 00:28:11,341 --> 00:28:12,782 Speaker 2: too big. She was a little bit older than the 543 00:28:12,782 --> 00:28:15,501 Speaker 2: four year old's going through. It was the way the 544 00:28:15,542 --> 00:28:18,942 Speaker 2: word fat came out of her mouth that I went, oh, 545 00:28:18,982 --> 00:28:23,061 Speaker 2: that's got to her at seven? Yeah, like that is sickening. 546 00:28:23,381 --> 00:28:27,821 Speaker 2: There is so much information now on food and solids 547 00:28:27,861 --> 00:28:30,542 Speaker 2: and feeding and all of that and how to prevent 548 00:28:31,182 --> 00:28:33,181 Speaker 2: you know, restriction and all of that. And I've been 549 00:28:33,222 --> 00:28:35,702 Speaker 2: deep in this because I have a child who eating 550 00:28:35,702 --> 00:28:38,702 Speaker 2: has never been very straightforward, and the idea that you 551 00:28:38,822 --> 00:28:40,782 Speaker 2: put it there and as you decide when you're full, 552 00:28:40,902 --> 00:28:45,142 Speaker 2: and you don't comment on things like that. But I've 553 00:28:45,142 --> 00:28:50,342 Speaker 2: certainly noticed that even like oh, she's so little or whatever, 554 00:28:51,142 --> 00:28:57,262 Speaker 2: has already started. And I wonder how you then protect 555 00:28:57,382 --> 00:29:00,782 Speaker 2: them from because inevitably, and I went through this, you 556 00:29:00,862 --> 00:29:03,221 Speaker 2: then go through puberty where your body starts to change 557 00:29:03,222 --> 00:29:05,701 Speaker 2: and suddenly you know, maybe you're not that little, or 558 00:29:05,782 --> 00:29:08,462 Speaker 2: parts of you, whatever it is, it's a really hard 559 00:29:08,502 --> 00:29:12,182 Speaker 2: thing to sort of recalibrate. I wouldn't think that seven 560 00:29:12,222 --> 00:29:14,102 Speaker 2: year old is even on social media, so I imagine 561 00:29:14,102 --> 00:29:15,702 Speaker 2: that it's just coming into the well. 562 00:29:15,702 --> 00:29:19,302 Speaker 1: It's like ground, as you point out with your own child, 563 00:29:19,422 --> 00:29:24,421 Speaker 1: people are already judging or commenting on her body, on 564 00:29:24,542 --> 00:29:29,982 Speaker 1: Luna's body, so it's happening early. And I completely agree 565 00:29:30,022 --> 00:29:32,142 Speaker 1: with what you said about thinking that we were over 566 00:29:32,182 --> 00:29:34,982 Speaker 1: this because you and I both lived through the body 567 00:29:35,062 --> 00:29:39,022 Speaker 1: positivity moment in the mid two thousands, and thinking back 568 00:29:39,062 --> 00:29:41,102 Speaker 1: to I guess it all started actually with the dove 569 00:29:41,222 --> 00:29:44,262 Speaker 1: ads and then it kind of snowballed from there, and 570 00:29:44,302 --> 00:29:47,582 Speaker 1: it coincided actually with the decline of magazines, which is 571 00:29:47,582 --> 00:29:51,181 Speaker 1: where I certainly inhaled a lot of this content in 572 00:29:51,222 --> 00:29:53,582 Speaker 1: the nineties, and I sort of thought we were just 573 00:29:53,622 --> 00:29:56,262 Speaker 1: beyond it, that along with them on nuanced understanding of 574 00:29:56,302 --> 00:30:00,262 Speaker 1: things like sexuality and race relations and the environment and 575 00:30:00,302 --> 00:30:03,022 Speaker 1: taking care of the environment, we were just getting more progressive, 576 00:30:03,062 --> 00:30:05,622 Speaker 1: more enlightened, and that our children wouldn't have to deal 577 00:30:05,702 --> 00:30:08,142 Speaker 1: with this. While it turns out I was wrong, And 578 00:30:08,462 --> 00:30:11,741 Speaker 1: what came through to me in this cut article is 579 00:30:11,782 --> 00:30:16,182 Speaker 1: that every generation ends up having this issue, and it's 580 00:30:16,222 --> 00:30:18,421 Speaker 1: just that the language around it changes and the media 581 00:30:18,462 --> 00:30:21,262 Speaker 1: in which it's consumed changes. So I mentioned that for 582 00:30:21,342 --> 00:30:23,661 Speaker 1: me in the nineties, it was very much magazines that 583 00:30:23,702 --> 00:30:26,462 Speaker 1: were conveying the diet tips. In the early two thousands, 584 00:30:26,502 --> 00:30:29,661 Speaker 1: it was probably live journal, Tumbler of those kinds of platforms. 585 00:30:29,782 --> 00:30:33,062 Speaker 2: Oh Tumblr, I forgot how and that was very much 586 00:30:33,182 --> 00:30:36,582 Speaker 2: the image that it had. This Really there was a 587 00:30:36,661 --> 00:30:40,302 Speaker 2: term that was used that was almost hashtagged, and it 588 00:30:40,382 --> 00:30:44,022 Speaker 2: attracted people who were struggling with eating disorders and glorified. 589 00:30:43,622 --> 00:30:46,142 Speaker 1: Bro Anna right, yes, yes, yeah, so that was the 590 00:30:46,182 --> 00:30:48,181 Speaker 1: thing then and now it's just moved on to a 591 00:30:48,222 --> 00:30:51,142 Speaker 1: different platform. What I want to ask you is, do 592 00:30:51,182 --> 00:30:53,782 Speaker 1: you think that there is any escaping it or is 593 00:30:53,822 --> 00:30:57,582 Speaker 1: this kind of like nihilistic idea that every generation of 594 00:30:57,661 --> 00:31:00,582 Speaker 1: young women inevitably has to cope with this. 595 00:31:01,182 --> 00:31:03,862 Speaker 2: I think it's true that we had this optimism. I 596 00:31:03,902 --> 00:31:06,261 Speaker 2: remember hearing mums talk about it in the office of like, 597 00:31:06,342 --> 00:31:08,382 Speaker 2: I'm going to get my daughter when she has a phone. 598 00:31:08,382 --> 00:31:11,102 Speaker 2: I'll just follow a bunch of diverse people on Instagram, 599 00:31:11,182 --> 00:31:13,062 Speaker 2: so she'll see all of those images and it'll be 600 00:31:13,102 --> 00:31:16,502 Speaker 2: the antithesis of a magazine or whatever, because she'll have 601 00:31:16,542 --> 00:31:19,262 Speaker 2: all of these different bodies and shapes coming up. You 602 00:31:19,382 --> 00:31:22,421 Speaker 2: can't do that on TikTok, like you just can't and. 603 00:31:22,862 --> 00:31:24,742 Speaker 1: Won't curate in that way. No control. 604 00:31:25,102 --> 00:31:27,542 Speaker 2: All it takes is you know, I'm pretty sure if 605 00:31:27,582 --> 00:31:29,941 Speaker 2: that app knows that you're a young girl, it's going 606 00:31:30,022 --> 00:31:32,181 Speaker 2: to go. I know what to give you, and then 607 00:31:32,222 --> 00:31:34,342 Speaker 2: all you have to do is stay for a second, 608 00:31:34,622 --> 00:31:37,342 Speaker 2: and you're just going to get more and more so 609 00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:41,342 Speaker 2: in that way, I don't think so. But from what 610 00:31:41,422 --> 00:31:44,701 Speaker 2: I've heard, people I know that grew up with a 611 00:31:44,782 --> 00:31:49,661 Speaker 2: real complex around weight seemed to absorb some of that 612 00:31:50,222 --> 00:31:54,262 Speaker 2: from their family. And I just maybe the hope or 613 00:31:54,262 --> 00:31:56,502 Speaker 2: the thing that I go the difference we can make 614 00:31:56,622 --> 00:31:59,102 Speaker 2: is like how we talk about it inside the house, yes, 615 00:31:59,462 --> 00:32:01,982 Speaker 2: and the language, how you speak about other people, how 616 00:32:01,982 --> 00:32:04,102 Speaker 2: you speak about food, how you speak about bodies, how 617 00:32:04,142 --> 00:32:05,742 Speaker 2: you look at yourself in the mirror, All of those 618 00:32:05,742 --> 00:32:08,302 Speaker 2: things I think does impact it. I grew up with 619 00:32:08,342 --> 00:32:12,501 Speaker 2: a mum who never commented on her body once, not negatively, 620 00:32:12,661 --> 00:32:15,302 Speaker 2: not her face, not anything, and I think it was 621 00:32:15,382 --> 00:32:17,342 Speaker 2: just like to me in my house, it felt irrelevant, 622 00:32:17,862 --> 00:32:20,742 Speaker 2: whereas I know that that really impacted other people who 623 00:32:20,742 --> 00:32:22,022 Speaker 2: grew up with a different experience. 624 00:32:22,342 --> 00:32:25,222 Speaker 1: It's also really hard to escape even when you are 625 00:32:25,262 --> 00:32:29,622 Speaker 1: trying to create a body neutral space within your family. 626 00:32:29,702 --> 00:32:33,102 Speaker 1: So for instance, I loved Roll Dyal books growing up. 627 00:32:33,142 --> 00:32:36,661 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, been reading them to my children, Matilda, Charlie 628 00:32:36,702 --> 00:32:39,582 Speaker 1: and the Chocolate Factory and the Twits. And the problem 629 00:32:39,622 --> 00:32:44,142 Speaker 1: with these books is that the word fat and the 630 00:32:44,262 --> 00:32:48,302 Speaker 1: idea that people who are ugly on the inside are 631 00:32:48,342 --> 00:32:50,942 Speaker 1: always ugly on the outside, and that those two things 632 00:32:50,942 --> 00:32:54,661 Speaker 1: are essentially synonymous. It pervades those books. A sort of 633 00:32:54,742 --> 00:33:00,502 Speaker 1: repulsion for women's bodies, particularly fat women's bodies, particularly women 634 00:33:00,582 --> 00:33:05,142 Speaker 1: who are maybe not your platonic ideal of beauty and 635 00:33:05,182 --> 00:33:08,262 Speaker 1: the merging of the inner and outer self. It's there 636 00:33:09,582 --> 00:33:12,462 Speaker 1: through those books. It's shot through them, and a lot 637 00:33:12,502 --> 00:33:16,302 Speaker 1: of older books do have that idea of inner beauty 638 00:33:16,342 --> 00:33:18,701 Speaker 1: being the same as out of beauty, and if fairy 639 00:33:18,702 --> 00:33:22,302 Speaker 1: tales have it too. In fact, the ugly stepsisters in Cinderella, 640 00:33:22,342 --> 00:33:26,702 Speaker 1: for instance, they're both ugly and mean. Cinderella is both 641 00:33:26,742 --> 00:33:31,982 Speaker 1: beautiful and kind, and to decouple those qualities if you're 642 00:33:31,982 --> 00:33:34,902 Speaker 1: going to read classic kids literature, it's really difficult to 643 00:33:34,942 --> 00:33:37,302 Speaker 1: convey that those two things are not synonymous. 644 00:33:37,502 --> 00:33:40,742 Speaker 2: That must be why every children's book now is animal. 645 00:33:41,222 --> 00:33:43,902 Speaker 2: It's like it's a gendlest animal because it's like we 646 00:33:43,982 --> 00:33:46,622 Speaker 2: could project on it. It doesn't matter the size. Sometimes 647 00:33:46,661 --> 00:33:49,342 Speaker 2: it's an elephant, sometimes it's a mouse. But it's like 648 00:33:49,542 --> 00:33:52,741 Speaker 2: you don't get all of that complexity of trying to 649 00:33:52,782 --> 00:33:56,542 Speaker 2: then identify them into a certain body, or you know that's. 650 00:33:56,422 --> 00:33:59,981 Speaker 1: True because it is also quite recent that we've started 651 00:34:00,022 --> 00:34:02,862 Speaker 1: to talk about this in this way. For instance, Harry 652 00:34:02,862 --> 00:34:05,782 Speaker 1: Potter is full of the same thing, and that was 653 00:34:05,782 --> 00:34:09,221 Speaker 1: written in the two thousands. So it just goes to 654 00:34:09,262 --> 00:34:12,222 Speaker 1: show that we're hopefully on the cutting edge of trying 655 00:34:12,222 --> 00:34:15,182 Speaker 1: to teach a different thing to our children. But then again, 656 00:34:15,702 --> 00:34:18,142 Speaker 1: I'm sure our feminist mothers thought that they were doing 657 00:34:18,181 --> 00:34:21,862 Speaker 1: that too. Alright, it's time for recommendations, Jesse, what have 658 00:34:21,942 --> 00:34:22,582 Speaker 1: you got for us? 659 00:34:22,741 --> 00:34:24,542 Speaker 2: Amelia? Have you ever been to a toy library? 660 00:34:24,661 --> 00:34:26,862 Speaker 1: No? I see these signs. Tell me what they're like. 661 00:34:27,261 --> 00:34:30,102 Speaker 2: They sound wondering, they're so good, and it's so not 662 00:34:30,221 --> 00:34:33,382 Speaker 2: something I would ever have gone and found. 663 00:34:33,502 --> 00:34:35,822 Speaker 1: Well, it would be weird if you didn't have kids 664 00:34:35,862 --> 00:34:38,422 Speaker 1: and were just hanging out at toy library exactly. 665 00:34:38,502 --> 00:34:41,742 Speaker 2: But the toy library is part of my local library, 666 00:34:41,781 --> 00:34:44,741 Speaker 2: which is on my strings, so very very easy. But 667 00:34:44,822 --> 00:34:46,622 Speaker 2: I looked it up and there are hundreds across the country. 668 00:34:46,622 --> 00:34:49,661 Speaker 2: It's not just my neighborhood. But a toy library is 669 00:34:49,701 --> 00:34:52,741 Speaker 2: literally you go in and it's got every toy you 670 00:34:52,781 --> 00:34:56,022 Speaker 2: could possibly imagine. It has costumes, you know, there's a 671 00:34:56,102 --> 00:34:58,701 Speaker 2: stage at which they might like a little pram to 672 00:34:58,741 --> 00:35:01,181 Speaker 2: practice their walking and you know, you need that for 673 00:35:01,221 --> 00:35:03,382 Speaker 2: like two months and then you never need it again. 674 00:35:03,661 --> 00:35:06,301 Speaker 2: It has things like that, and then you do aigh. 675 00:35:06,342 --> 00:35:08,542 Speaker 2: I think it was like seventy bucks for a twelve 676 00:35:08,542 --> 00:35:11,062 Speaker 2: month subscription, and I could go every week if I 677 00:35:11,102 --> 00:35:13,022 Speaker 2: want it, and I can get like three or four. 678 00:35:12,862 --> 00:35:14,781 Speaker 1: Toys, and then I get three at a time. Yeah. 679 00:35:14,862 --> 00:35:17,741 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you get multiple toys return them. And I 680 00:35:17,781 --> 00:35:19,502 Speaker 2: was like, can I donate toys to this because I 681 00:35:19,502 --> 00:35:22,181 Speaker 2: remember reading something a while ago about how there's an 682 00:35:22,221 --> 00:35:25,821 Speaker 2: ideal amount of toys for They say it's between ten 683 00:35:25,862 --> 00:35:26,822 Speaker 2: and fifteen. 684 00:35:27,181 --> 00:35:30,262 Speaker 1: So it probably wouldn't and probably wouldn't. 685 00:35:30,502 --> 00:35:33,702 Speaker 2: And it inspires creativity because it's like, if they don't 686 00:35:33,822 --> 00:35:35,821 Speaker 2: have the doll, then they have to make the doll 687 00:35:35,862 --> 00:35:39,422 Speaker 2: out of playtoes, which is yeah, yeah, that's. 688 00:35:39,462 --> 00:35:41,182 Speaker 1: That's where my parents went wrong. 689 00:35:42,542 --> 00:35:45,062 Speaker 2: But Toy Library is so so good because we all 690 00:35:45,102 --> 00:35:48,181 Speaker 2: know the clutter everything. Often your kid just wants it 691 00:35:48,221 --> 00:35:49,942 Speaker 2: for two weeks and then it disappears and they never 692 00:35:49,982 --> 00:35:52,661 Speaker 2: think about it again. So I love that. That's my 693 00:35:52,661 --> 00:35:54,462 Speaker 2: my hack. How about you, Amelia. 694 00:35:54,502 --> 00:35:57,942 Speaker 1: My recommendation is one very near and dear to my heart. 695 00:35:58,062 --> 00:36:00,461 Speaker 1: It's been a companion in my life. For years now. 696 00:36:00,661 --> 00:36:04,381 Speaker 1: It's a podcast. It's called Grim Grimmer Grimmist. Have you 697 00:36:04,382 --> 00:36:04,861 Speaker 1: heard of it? 698 00:36:04,942 --> 00:36:06,142 Speaker 2: Is it Grim Brothers related? 699 00:36:06,261 --> 00:36:06,461 Speaker 1: Yes? 700 00:36:06,502 --> 00:36:07,382 Speaker 2: Oh I love them. 701 00:36:07,902 --> 00:36:10,781 Speaker 1: Yes, it is Grim fairy tales. I mean the Grim 702 00:36:10,781 --> 00:36:13,102 Speaker 1: Brothers are like true crime for the eighteenth century? 703 00:36:13,221 --> 00:36:15,142 Speaker 2: Right, Were they twins or just brothers? I think they 704 00:36:15,142 --> 00:36:17,341 Speaker 2: want maybe just brothers. But Clara and I find them 705 00:36:17,422 --> 00:36:20,302 Speaker 2: very inspiring because they watch Yeah, it's really sweet. 706 00:36:20,342 --> 00:36:23,582 Speaker 1: So the host is Adam Gidwitz. It's an American podcast, 707 00:36:23,701 --> 00:36:26,741 Speaker 1: and the fifth season of this podcast drops, And yes 708 00:36:26,781 --> 00:36:29,662 Speaker 1: I did say dropped. I'm very excited about it. Dropped 709 00:36:29,701 --> 00:36:33,142 Speaker 1: a couple of days ago. That's my household version of 710 00:36:33,181 --> 00:36:35,181 Speaker 1: rep TV. Just to give you a sense of how 711 00:36:35,181 --> 00:36:38,301 Speaker 1: exciting this is. So here's the premise. Adam Gibwitz goes 712 00:36:38,342 --> 00:36:40,822 Speaker 1: to the classroom of a very fancy school in Brooklyn, 713 00:36:40,862 --> 00:36:43,462 Speaker 1: New York to tell grim fairy tales, and he records 714 00:36:43,542 --> 00:36:46,942 Speaker 1: himself telling the story and also records the kids responding 715 00:36:47,022 --> 00:36:50,461 Speaker 1: in real time to the story. So this podcast works 716 00:36:50,502 --> 00:36:54,262 Speaker 1: on a number of levels for parents. There's something slightly 717 00:36:54,342 --> 00:36:57,781 Speaker 1: voyeuristic about the milieu of this podcast, which is, like 718 00:36:57,822 --> 00:37:00,502 Speaker 1: I mentioned this very fancy school because the kids parents, 719 00:37:00,542 --> 00:37:03,782 Speaker 1: you learn through their anecdotes, are all like really fancy careers, 720 00:37:03,822 --> 00:37:07,182 Speaker 1: like their set designers, their novelists, and you're just getting 721 00:37:07,181 --> 00:37:10,261 Speaker 1: this glimpse into kind of like the upper crust of 722 00:37:10,302 --> 00:37:12,622 Speaker 1: New York and how they're raising their kids. It's heavy. 723 00:37:12,661 --> 00:37:14,062 Speaker 1: I love it, Yeah, I love it. And then the 724 00:37:14,102 --> 00:37:17,341 Speaker 1: second thing is the kids are extremely precocious and well 725 00:37:17,382 --> 00:37:20,301 Speaker 1: spoken because their parents are again set design as a 726 00:37:20,342 --> 00:37:22,261 Speaker 1: novelist in the upper crust of New York, so they 727 00:37:22,302 --> 00:37:26,382 Speaker 1: add in these actually very witty interjections to the stories. 728 00:37:26,822 --> 00:37:28,502 Speaker 1: And then the third thing that's great about it is 729 00:37:28,502 --> 00:37:31,221 Speaker 1: that the grim fairy tales are just the best stories. 730 00:37:31,221 --> 00:37:33,741 Speaker 2: It's like canceling Gretelin stuff. Yeah, right, Like it's all 731 00:37:33,781 --> 00:37:35,861 Speaker 2: the really disturbing ones that I loved. 732 00:37:35,902 --> 00:37:38,822 Speaker 1: Is really disturbing. And so that's why it's called grim, Grimmer, Grimmest, 733 00:37:38,942 --> 00:37:42,982 Speaker 1: because each fairy tale is ranked is it grim, is 734 00:37:42,982 --> 00:37:45,821 Speaker 1: it grimmer, or is it grimmest, And so you can 735 00:37:45,902 --> 00:37:48,382 Speaker 1: kind of pick how dark you want the story to be. 736 00:37:49,142 --> 00:37:51,502 Speaker 1: They're not sugarcoated, they're not done down. In fact, some 737 00:37:51,542 --> 00:37:53,742 Speaker 1: of the stories most of the stories are quite violent. 738 00:37:54,062 --> 00:37:57,622 Speaker 1: Love that, but in a kind of kid's storybook somehow 739 00:37:57,661 --> 00:38:01,102 Speaker 1: age appropriate way. How long are the episodes They range 740 00:38:01,142 --> 00:38:04,701 Speaker 1: in between about twenty and fifty minutes. You probably need 741 00:38:04,781 --> 00:38:08,701 Speaker 1: to buy some episodes if you want the whole back catalog, 742 00:38:08,781 --> 00:38:11,941 Speaker 1: but there's plenty of available for free on podcast platforms 743 00:38:11,982 --> 00:38:14,221 Speaker 1: to just try out. A good one to try out 744 00:38:14,302 --> 00:38:18,822 Speaker 1: versus Rumpelstiltskin, which is one of my favorites, and Gidwitz itself. 745 00:38:18,862 --> 00:38:21,781 Speaker 1: He's just a fantastic storyteller. There's a reason why when 746 00:38:21,822 --> 00:38:24,142 Speaker 1: you type his name into Google the first result is 747 00:38:24,542 --> 00:38:28,301 Speaker 1: Adam Gibwits married, because I've definitely googled that and you 748 00:38:28,422 --> 00:38:30,462 Speaker 1: will too. I love that. 749 00:38:30,661 --> 00:38:34,221 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That is all we have time 750 00:38:34,302 --> 00:38:37,502 Speaker 2: for on Parenting out Loud today. Mom and mea studios 751 00:38:37,582 --> 00:38:41,341 Speaker 2: are styled with furniture from Fenton Inventon. Visit Fentoninfenton dot 752 00:38:41,342 --> 00:38:48,262 Speaker 2: com dot au. We will see you next Saturday. Bye.