1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:24,207 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:24,287 --> 00:00:27,327 Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud and to our Friday show where 5 00:00:27,367 --> 00:00:29,847 Speaker 2: we take a breath from the news cycle and breathe out. 6 00:00:31,847 --> 00:00:35,647 Speaker 2: Today is Friday, the ninth of August, and I'm hollywayn Right. 7 00:00:35,727 --> 00:00:37,127 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm me a Friedman. 8 00:00:37,167 --> 00:00:39,647 Speaker 3: Hello, I'm Jesse Stephens. I'm trying to think of a 9 00:00:39,687 --> 00:00:43,167 Speaker 3: different way to today. 10 00:00:43,207 --> 00:00:46,927 Speaker 2: On the show. Today the burden of caring for babies, 11 00:00:47,127 --> 00:00:50,567 Speaker 2: for sick friends and parents. Is it time to recast 12 00:00:50,687 --> 00:00:54,887 Speaker 2: care work as a privilege? And we recommend two things 13 00:00:54,887 --> 00:00:57,127 Speaker 2: to watch and one thing to listen to all weekend 14 00:00:57,687 --> 00:01:01,567 Speaker 2: and our best and worsts, including a special exemption from 15 00:01:01,647 --> 00:01:05,567 Speaker 2: talking about news, some wholesome family content from the Friedman House, 16 00:01:05,927 --> 00:01:08,207 Speaker 2: and a night out at the greatest show in the world. 17 00:01:08,607 --> 00:01:09,607 Speaker 2: But first to me. 18 00:01:09,567 --> 00:01:12,127 Speaker 1: A Freedman in case you missed it. There's a new 19 00:01:12,247 --> 00:01:15,647 Speaker 1: kind of relationship that is causing issues in the dating world, 20 00:01:16,447 --> 00:01:18,007 Speaker 1: and it has to do with the color of your 21 00:01:18,047 --> 00:01:21,327 Speaker 1: text message. When you send a text. Young people are 22 00:01:21,327 --> 00:01:24,367 Speaker 1: expressing on the Internet their hatred of what they are 23 00:01:24,407 --> 00:01:29,127 Speaker 1: dubbing mixed phone relationships. Jesse, I believe you're in a 24 00:01:29,167 --> 00:01:30,487 Speaker 1: mixed phone relationship. 25 00:01:30,607 --> 00:01:33,087 Speaker 3: I am, but it's never really caused any issues, so 26 00:01:33,127 --> 00:01:33,927 Speaker 3: I'm very interesting. 27 00:01:33,967 --> 00:01:35,727 Speaker 1: I think you're wrong about that. I am too. Now, 28 00:01:35,767 --> 00:01:39,327 Speaker 1: if you're wondering what a mixed phone relationship is, it 29 00:01:39,487 --> 00:01:43,327 Speaker 1: means if you are partnered with someone or dating someone 30 00:01:43,487 --> 00:01:46,807 Speaker 1: who uses Android and you are on the Apple system, 31 00:01:47,247 --> 00:01:52,007 Speaker 1: because texting is a problem, particularly group texts, you know, 32 00:01:52,567 --> 00:01:54,927 Speaker 1: So if there's someone in your family, for example, and 33 00:01:54,967 --> 00:01:58,407 Speaker 1: I have two members of my family who are an Android, 34 00:01:58,567 --> 00:02:00,887 Speaker 1: and that's why we all had to switch to WhatsApp for. 35 00:02:00,847 --> 00:02:04,127 Speaker 3: Groups, Well we do Facebook Messenger. No, yes, we don't 36 00:02:04,167 --> 00:02:05,007 Speaker 3: do in our family. 37 00:02:05,247 --> 00:02:05,447 Speaker 4: Yeah. 38 00:02:06,167 --> 00:02:08,727 Speaker 1: Not everybody in my family is on FACEX because I 39 00:02:08,767 --> 00:02:10,887 Speaker 1: have people who are under the age of one hundred. 40 00:02:11,407 --> 00:02:14,447 Speaker 2: This explains a great deal to me, not about my relationship, 41 00:02:14,767 --> 00:02:16,847 Speaker 2: but about you know, like when you've got a kids 42 00:02:16,967 --> 00:02:19,967 Speaker 2: sporting group or whatever and you need to all talk 43 00:02:20,007 --> 00:02:22,887 Speaker 2: to the parents, and I'll always say, like, can we 44 00:02:22,927 --> 00:02:24,847 Speaker 2: have a group text or what's happened? Lots people will 45 00:02:24,847 --> 00:02:27,047 Speaker 2: be like, I don't what'sapp? I Facebook Message? And I'm like, 46 00:02:27,167 --> 00:02:28,807 Speaker 2: why do I have to have twenty five things? It's 47 00:02:28,967 --> 00:02:32,167 Speaker 2: you Android people. I think WhatsApp is do I look 48 00:02:32,167 --> 00:02:35,887 Speaker 2: at Jesse, she's on Apple, but I think default tends 49 00:02:35,967 --> 00:02:41,527 Speaker 2: to be WhatsApp is neutral. WhatsApp is the neutral messaging 50 00:02:41,607 --> 00:02:45,007 Speaker 2: service that everybody can be on, except for the people 51 00:02:45,047 --> 00:02:48,567 Speaker 2: who have ethical issues with meta And I can't help you. 52 00:02:48,807 --> 00:02:51,887 Speaker 3: So what's the problem if a message comes in as 53 00:02:51,927 --> 00:02:54,607 Speaker 3: green or blue? How does that affect me in my life? 54 00:02:54,687 --> 00:02:57,287 Speaker 3: So my mom's messages come in and green because she 55 00:02:57,607 --> 00:02:59,527 Speaker 3: is an Android user, and then she asks for help 56 00:02:59,607 --> 00:03:02,687 Speaker 3: and I say, I don't know what language this okay? 57 00:03:02,767 --> 00:03:06,127 Speaker 1: So for Apple users messaging other Apple users, the text 58 00:03:06,167 --> 00:03:09,247 Speaker 1: bubble is blue. But if an Apple user is message 59 00:03:09,447 --> 00:03:12,687 Speaker 1: an Android user saying someone who has a Samsung phone, 60 00:03:13,047 --> 00:03:16,047 Speaker 1: the text bubble is not blue, it's green. And that 61 00:03:16,167 --> 00:03:18,847 Speaker 1: is a red flag for some people. And this is 62 00:03:18,887 --> 00:03:21,727 Speaker 1: a real sticking point for gen Z. So we asked 63 00:03:22,007 --> 00:03:25,767 Speaker 1: our co host m Vernon if she had encountered this 64 00:03:25,887 --> 00:03:28,767 Speaker 1: mixed phone relationship situation, and of course she has. Here 65 00:03:28,767 --> 00:03:29,087 Speaker 1: she is. 66 00:03:29,367 --> 00:03:34,687 Speaker 4: So I dated a guy who had an Android, and 67 00:03:34,767 --> 00:03:36,727 Speaker 4: the reason I knew he had an Android was because 68 00:03:36,727 --> 00:03:40,527 Speaker 4: when we immediately started texting. We first matched on a 69 00:03:40,647 --> 00:03:42,927 Speaker 4: dating app and then we moved over to text and 70 00:03:43,127 --> 00:03:45,647 Speaker 4: his bubbles came up in green, and I think it's 71 00:03:45,727 --> 00:03:48,407 Speaker 4: like a write of passage. Like the first question I 72 00:03:48,447 --> 00:03:50,767 Speaker 4: asked him was do you have an Android? Because I'm like, 73 00:03:50,807 --> 00:03:53,487 Speaker 4: I want to understand the meaning behind the green bubble. 74 00:03:53,527 --> 00:03:55,847 Speaker 4: Maybe it doesn't like I message. Maybe he's saving some money. 75 00:03:56,327 --> 00:03:58,847 Speaker 4: And he's like, yeah, is that a red flag? And 76 00:03:58,887 --> 00:04:00,447 Speaker 4: I was like, oh no, no, I was just wondering. 77 00:04:00,487 --> 00:04:02,367 Speaker 4: And he's like, okay, good because every time I say 78 00:04:02,367 --> 00:04:04,087 Speaker 4: I have an Android to a girl, she ends up 79 00:04:04,087 --> 00:04:04,647 Speaker 4: ghosting me. 80 00:04:05,007 --> 00:04:07,647 Speaker 2: Oh, that seems harsh. 81 00:04:07,687 --> 00:04:10,567 Speaker 3: It's a specific personality. I'll say that, and I say 82 00:04:10,607 --> 00:04:14,287 Speaker 3: that with my mum and my husband. There is a 83 00:04:14,367 --> 00:04:18,567 Speaker 3: stubbornness that comes from being an Android person. There is 84 00:04:18,727 --> 00:04:23,487 Speaker 3: a smugness, smugness that's like, you got the default, you 85 00:04:23,607 --> 00:04:26,367 Speaker 3: got the mainstream, your basic bitch. What I did was 86 00:04:26,447 --> 00:04:29,727 Speaker 3: did my research, and so I have this phone that 87 00:04:29,767 --> 00:04:31,887 Speaker 3: no one else in the world uses, which is very 88 00:04:32,447 --> 00:04:33,247 Speaker 3: your husband. 89 00:04:33,327 --> 00:04:35,687 Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing that makes dayson happier than anything in 90 00:04:35,727 --> 00:04:38,807 Speaker 1: the world is when we have problems with our Apple devices. 91 00:04:39,087 --> 00:04:42,367 Speaker 1: He loves it. Android loves it. Being in a mixed 92 00:04:42,367 --> 00:04:45,167 Speaker 1: phone relationship has its challenges, including not being able to 93 00:04:45,207 --> 00:04:48,447 Speaker 1: air drop very annoying, no face time, can't FaceTime any 94 00:04:49,247 --> 00:04:51,447 Speaker 1: and sharing charges is a disaster. 95 00:04:51,567 --> 00:04:54,487 Speaker 3: Yeah, you say that, but the latest iPhone Android charger 96 00:04:54,967 --> 00:04:57,087 Speaker 3: we've moved to the US ba C and I think 97 00:04:57,087 --> 00:04:58,487 Speaker 3: we can all agree to the culture. 98 00:04:58,727 --> 00:05:00,687 Speaker 1: It's better for us. All. 99 00:05:00,847 --> 00:05:02,807 Speaker 3: Yep, that's just what we're on now. We're not invented, 100 00:05:02,887 --> 00:05:03,687 Speaker 3: but you have. 101 00:05:03,647 --> 00:05:06,287 Speaker 2: The latest Apple Yes, out louders, I bet there are 102 00:05:06,327 --> 00:05:09,447 Speaker 2: lots of you who are in mixed phone relationships. What 103 00:05:09,487 --> 00:05:11,607 Speaker 2: are the telltale signs of an Android user? That's what 104 00:05:11,647 --> 00:05:12,127 Speaker 2: I want to know. 105 00:05:14,047 --> 00:05:16,367 Speaker 3: If you had a friend who said to you, I'm 106 00:05:16,407 --> 00:05:19,127 Speaker 3: taking time off work to care for my terminally or mother, 107 00:05:19,687 --> 00:05:21,807 Speaker 3: or I'm the full time carer to my adult child 108 00:05:21,807 --> 00:05:24,527 Speaker 3: with additional needs, or even I'm at home with three 109 00:05:24,607 --> 00:05:26,687 Speaker 3: kids this weekend, how. 110 00:05:26,527 --> 00:05:28,647 Speaker 1: Would you respond, I'm so sorry. 111 00:05:28,887 --> 00:05:31,887 Speaker 3: Yeah, you might say that must be hard, I don't 112 00:05:31,927 --> 00:05:33,767 Speaker 3: know how you do it. In the case of a 113 00:05:33,847 --> 00:05:37,567 Speaker 3: parent with an illness, you would absolutely that it's tough, 114 00:05:37,567 --> 00:05:40,807 Speaker 3: that's really tough. What can I do? And all those 115 00:05:40,847 --> 00:05:45,007 Speaker 3: things would be a true and a compassionate response. We 116 00:05:45,087 --> 00:05:47,767 Speaker 3: might think about the burden of care, the emotional and 117 00:05:47,807 --> 00:05:52,087 Speaker 3: financial cost, maybe even feel some pity about people in 118 00:05:52,127 --> 00:05:54,047 Speaker 3: that situation or empathy. 119 00:05:54,287 --> 00:05:54,807 Speaker 1: Yeah. 120 00:05:54,887 --> 00:05:57,767 Speaker 3: Well, a woman named Alyssa Strauss wants to challenge that 121 00:05:57,807 --> 00:06:00,447 Speaker 3: a little bit. She has written a book called When 122 00:06:00,527 --> 00:06:03,567 Speaker 3: You Care, The Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others, and 123 00:06:03,567 --> 00:06:06,527 Speaker 3: she was interviewed for Anne Helen Peterson's newsletter this week. 124 00:06:07,367 --> 00:06:10,607 Speaker 3: She argues that basically, as a culture, we have no 125 00:06:10,767 --> 00:06:13,767 Speaker 3: curiosity when it comes to caring. We're doing a great 126 00:06:13,887 --> 00:06:17,567 Speaker 3: job at casting caring in the worst possible light. There's 127 00:06:17,647 --> 00:06:21,647 Speaker 3: no infrastructure or support for caregivers, so care makes you 128 00:06:21,807 --> 00:06:25,287 Speaker 3: poor and it exhausts you. She talks about compulsory or 129 00:06:25,327 --> 00:06:28,207 Speaker 3: coerced care, which is something that patriarchy has done a 130 00:06:28,207 --> 00:06:31,887 Speaker 3: great job of sustaining for a very long time. Feminism 131 00:06:31,927 --> 00:06:34,767 Speaker 3: has had to rebel against this in some ways. But 132 00:06:34,887 --> 00:06:39,847 Speaker 3: this view of caring as uninteresting or unproductive is very Western, 133 00:06:39,967 --> 00:06:43,047 Speaker 3: and it overlooks that care is actually what makes the 134 00:06:43,087 --> 00:06:47,287 Speaker 3: world go round. Strauss writes, nobody turns to the mum 135 00:06:47,447 --> 00:06:50,007 Speaker 3: or caregiver at a dinner party and asks for her 136 00:06:50,047 --> 00:06:54,727 Speaker 3: broader insights into life or human psychology or philosophy, even 137 00:06:54,767 --> 00:06:56,967 Speaker 3: though they might have a lot more insights than the 138 00:06:56,967 --> 00:06:59,087 Speaker 3: guy in the suit with a fancy degree or. 139 00:06:59,047 --> 00:07:02,167 Speaker 1: Whatever, yeah, instead or the lady in the suit, yeah, 140 00:07:02,207 --> 00:07:03,567 Speaker 1: who pushes buttons all day. 141 00:07:03,967 --> 00:07:06,287 Speaker 3: The lives of cares are assumed to be a bit 142 00:07:06,327 --> 00:07:09,287 Speaker 3: of a tragedy. But the people she interviewed found a 143 00:07:09,127 --> 00:07:12,007 Speaker 3: lot of purpose and meaning and what they did, and 144 00:07:12,087 --> 00:07:15,767 Speaker 3: these people doing the work of maintaining, preserving and cultivating 145 00:07:15,847 --> 00:07:20,087 Speaker 3: humanity are abundantly worthy of collective support. I think we 146 00:07:20,167 --> 00:07:23,487 Speaker 3: can agree in the interview, and Helen Peterson says, and 147 00:07:23,527 --> 00:07:26,687 Speaker 3: this is specifically about parenting, I just keep thinking of 148 00:07:26,727 --> 00:07:29,287 Speaker 3: how many parents I know of all genders, who are 149 00:07:29,367 --> 00:07:33,447 Speaker 3: utterly unprepared for parenting, in part because they'd never done 150 00:07:33,487 --> 00:07:36,847 Speaker 3: this sort of work, never woven it into their daily lives, 151 00:07:37,127 --> 00:07:39,927 Speaker 3: never die, put a baby, sure, but also never figured 152 00:07:39,927 --> 00:07:42,927 Speaker 3: out how to get through a boring day. We know 153 00:07:43,007 --> 00:07:46,247 Speaker 3: that care work is underpaid and undervalued and under resourced 154 00:07:46,527 --> 00:07:49,087 Speaker 3: or which needs to be addressed, But is it time 155 00:07:49,127 --> 00:07:52,407 Speaker 3: to talk about the meaning, the self worth and the 156 00:07:52,447 --> 00:07:54,967 Speaker 3: connection that can also come from care. 157 00:07:56,327 --> 00:07:59,087 Speaker 1: Wow, this is amazing. I think that at the heart 158 00:07:59,127 --> 00:08:04,127 Speaker 1: of this is that caring in our society has always 159 00:08:04,207 --> 00:08:09,607 Speaker 1: been a female task and a female responsibility. I won't 160 00:08:09,607 --> 00:08:13,687 Speaker 1: say privilege because women have rarely, as you said, had 161 00:08:13,687 --> 00:08:17,087 Speaker 1: a choice. And I think that any role or task 162 00:08:17,127 --> 00:08:20,367 Speaker 1: in our society that is predominantly done by women has 163 00:08:20,447 --> 00:08:25,167 Speaker 1: low status, always has So I think that when someone 164 00:08:25,207 --> 00:08:28,087 Speaker 1: has to care for someone else, it is seen as 165 00:08:28,127 --> 00:08:31,687 Speaker 1: a compromise and a sacrifice, the idea of it being 166 00:08:31,727 --> 00:08:36,527 Speaker 1: a privilege. I've experienced this caring for someone while they 167 00:08:36,527 --> 00:08:38,807 Speaker 1: were dying. I wasn't the sole career, but I was 168 00:08:39,167 --> 00:08:44,527 Speaker 1: in the inner circle, and that was an incredible privilege. 169 00:08:45,007 --> 00:08:47,687 Speaker 1: But it didn't go on for a really, really long time. 170 00:08:49,047 --> 00:08:52,647 Speaker 1: The types of caring where someone is sick or caring 171 00:08:52,687 --> 00:08:56,087 Speaker 1: for children, it is just long and monotonous. And I 172 00:08:56,087 --> 00:08:58,287 Speaker 1: think what you say is really interesting. It makes me 173 00:08:58,327 --> 00:09:02,207 Speaker 1: think about our conversations about babysitting. So, you know, my 174 00:09:02,327 --> 00:09:06,127 Speaker 1: son doesn't want a babysit loves lunar to pieces, but 175 00:09:06,127 --> 00:09:07,607 Speaker 1: doesn't want to change and happy. Now, I think that's 176 00:09:07,607 --> 00:09:11,367 Speaker 1: pretty typical of a fifteen year old. But also, if 177 00:09:11,407 --> 00:09:14,367 Speaker 1: you're in a big family, you just have to, like, 178 00:09:14,407 --> 00:09:16,167 Speaker 1: you just have to do that stuff, and it is 179 00:09:16,207 --> 00:09:19,367 Speaker 1: the stuff of life doing things you don't want to do. 180 00:09:19,607 --> 00:09:24,127 Speaker 1: I'm so about our society not preparing us for things 181 00:09:24,167 --> 00:09:27,167 Speaker 1: we don't want to do, because we get instant gratification. 182 00:09:27,327 --> 00:09:29,207 Speaker 1: You know, if you're bored, pick up your phone, if 183 00:09:29,207 --> 00:09:32,127 Speaker 1: you're thirsty, reach once in a meter for your water bottle. 184 00:09:32,727 --> 00:09:35,007 Speaker 1: We don't have to sacrifice anything. We don't have to 185 00:09:35,047 --> 00:09:37,447 Speaker 1: experience uncomfortable emotions. And I love what you say about 186 00:09:38,167 --> 00:09:39,447 Speaker 1: it's really can be really boring. 187 00:09:39,687 --> 00:09:42,647 Speaker 3: And we're obsessed with productivity, right, and we've seen that 188 00:09:42,727 --> 00:09:46,687 Speaker 3: as almost an impediment productivity where it's like, oh, if 189 00:09:46,727 --> 00:09:48,247 Speaker 3: I'm at home with the kids all day, I can't 190 00:09:48,247 --> 00:09:50,847 Speaker 3: get this done, as though that being with the kids 191 00:09:50,887 --> 00:09:53,847 Speaker 3: at home all day is not isn't also a thing, 192 00:09:54,047 --> 00:09:56,527 Speaker 3: And there's a gendered element, But there's another. 193 00:09:56,247 --> 00:09:57,807 Speaker 1: Element that's capitalism, right. 194 00:09:57,647 --> 00:10:01,367 Speaker 3: Capitalism, which is also about the cult of individualism that 195 00:10:01,407 --> 00:10:04,887 Speaker 3: we like to think and believe that we are individuals 196 00:10:05,407 --> 00:10:10,967 Speaker 3: who have agency and who have control and power and 197 00:10:11,127 --> 00:10:15,447 Speaker 3: can draw boundaries around ourselves. But that's a fallacy. Like 198 00:10:15,527 --> 00:10:19,527 Speaker 3: we are deeply interconnected, and whether it's as babies or 199 00:10:19,567 --> 00:10:21,327 Speaker 3: whether it's as elderly. 200 00:10:20,887 --> 00:10:21,967 Speaker 1: People rely on each other. 201 00:10:22,007 --> 00:10:23,967 Speaker 3: We rely on each other and we're probably going to 202 00:10:24,007 --> 00:10:27,247 Speaker 3: need nephew's changed on either side, but that's something we 203 00:10:27,247 --> 00:10:30,327 Speaker 3: don't want to think about until we're in it. I think, Holly, 204 00:10:30,487 --> 00:10:33,327 Speaker 3: do you think that this is a little bit dangerous? 205 00:10:33,407 --> 00:10:38,687 Speaker 3: Is it a way of kind of romanticizing something that's insane? 206 00:10:38,727 --> 00:10:42,967 Speaker 1: It's a privilege, it Chierley, You don't need to be paid. 207 00:10:42,967 --> 00:10:44,687 Speaker 1: It's I'm just caring for the honor of it. 208 00:10:44,927 --> 00:10:47,527 Speaker 2: Just Yeah, there's a lot of nuance in it, right, 209 00:10:47,607 --> 00:10:51,967 Speaker 2: because I entirely agree that caring is a privilege, and 210 00:10:52,127 --> 00:10:54,087 Speaker 2: I also entirely agree that it's going to teach you 211 00:10:54,127 --> 00:10:56,607 Speaker 2: more about life than many things. I love that quote 212 00:10:56,607 --> 00:10:59,407 Speaker 2: in the interview about you know, not turning to the 213 00:10:59,407 --> 00:11:01,447 Speaker 2: woman at the dinner table because you're like, well, what 214 00:11:01,487 --> 00:11:03,767 Speaker 2: do you know stay home with babies all day. I 215 00:11:04,007 --> 00:11:08,767 Speaker 2: entirely understand that, But I worry a little bit about 216 00:11:08,847 --> 00:11:12,127 Speaker 2: us framing, well, what an enormous privilege it is to 217 00:11:12,807 --> 00:11:15,687 Speaker 2: care for somebody in a thankless way, because it is 218 00:11:15,767 --> 00:11:20,367 Speaker 2: always women. It is always women, right, And I teach nurses, yes, 219 00:11:20,407 --> 00:11:23,527 Speaker 2: but they're paid but not well, yes, but the unpaid roles. 220 00:11:24,047 --> 00:11:27,367 Speaker 2: The tension in this is it's expected you'll do it, 221 00:11:27,807 --> 00:11:30,487 Speaker 2: and some people, male or female, will be good at it, 222 00:11:30,527 --> 00:11:32,807 Speaker 2: and some people won't. I hate the idea that we 223 00:11:32,847 --> 00:11:37,447 Speaker 2: think all women are nurturers and careers and somehow instinctively 224 00:11:37,487 --> 00:11:39,287 Speaker 2: going to be better at this, because I don't, actually, 225 00:11:39,727 --> 00:11:41,487 Speaker 2: like I could say about myself with a lot of 226 00:11:41,487 --> 00:11:44,127 Speaker 2: honesty that I do not think I'm a very nurturing person, 227 00:11:44,167 --> 00:11:46,487 Speaker 2: and I'm not very good at looking after people when 228 00:11:46,487 --> 00:11:48,847 Speaker 2: they're sick, and I know that if and when that 229 00:11:48,967 --> 00:11:52,527 Speaker 2: comes to me, in whatever form, it will be really 230 00:11:52,567 --> 00:11:54,807 Speaker 2: hard for me to do that. Whereas I know other 231 00:11:54,807 --> 00:11:59,607 Speaker 2: people who are such instinctive caregivers. They take care of 232 00:11:59,727 --> 00:12:01,927 Speaker 2: everyone around them all the time, you know, and they 233 00:12:01,967 --> 00:12:05,087 Speaker 2: almost force care upon you because they're like, I need 234 00:12:05,127 --> 00:12:07,207 Speaker 2: to look after you. It's part of their fabrics. 235 00:12:07,287 --> 00:12:09,447 Speaker 1: So you think that's because some people find so self 236 00:12:09,487 --> 00:12:12,687 Speaker 1: worth and meaning in care and status in care and 237 00:12:12,727 --> 00:12:13,407 Speaker 1: others don't. 238 00:12:13,847 --> 00:12:16,127 Speaker 2: I don't think it's all about that. I don't think 239 00:12:16,167 --> 00:12:18,207 Speaker 2: that I'm not very good at it because it doesn't 240 00:12:18,207 --> 00:12:21,207 Speaker 2: have status for me. I think I'm just not that 241 00:12:21,287 --> 00:12:24,447 Speaker 2: kind of person. And I also think that, like my mother, 242 00:12:24,567 --> 00:12:27,967 Speaker 2: isn't that kind of like it's I just don't agree 243 00:12:28,007 --> 00:12:30,327 Speaker 2: that women are always good at it. So, you know, 244 00:12:30,407 --> 00:12:32,327 Speaker 2: the default thing that we have discussed on the show 245 00:12:32,327 --> 00:12:35,727 Speaker 2: of the oldest Daughter syndrome, that very often the person 246 00:12:35,727 --> 00:12:37,887 Speaker 2: who will be the one who's making the decisions for 247 00:12:37,967 --> 00:12:42,287 Speaker 2: families about elder care and you know, health decisions for 248 00:12:42,647 --> 00:12:45,527 Speaker 2: will end up being the eldest daughter. Often that's whether 249 00:12:45,567 --> 00:12:48,287 Speaker 2: she's the best suited for that or not, and she 250 00:12:48,527 --> 00:12:50,887 Speaker 2: very well might not be so. 251 00:12:51,047 --> 00:12:53,087 Speaker 1: And it might not even be the oldest daughter. It 252 00:12:53,167 --> 00:12:57,167 Speaker 1: might be the youngest child. Sorry you're saying it's the 253 00:12:57,207 --> 00:12:59,407 Speaker 1: oldest daughter. So even if there's five children, but the 254 00:12:59,447 --> 00:13:01,687 Speaker 1: youngest one is a daughter, it'll be the daughter because 255 00:13:01,687 --> 00:13:02,327 Speaker 1: she's the oldest. 256 00:13:02,447 --> 00:13:05,967 Speaker 3: That's why I liked the terminology of coercet, yes, and 257 00:13:06,167 --> 00:13:09,847 Speaker 3: explain that. Yes. So the history of it is that 258 00:13:10,007 --> 00:13:14,287 Speaker 3: it was difficult to find privilege in something that you 259 00:13:14,327 --> 00:13:17,287 Speaker 3: were forced to do. I'm talking in past tenses though 260 00:13:17,327 --> 00:13:19,607 Speaker 3: this is a relic of history, but it's not. It's 261 00:13:19,607 --> 00:13:22,007 Speaker 3: still something that happens. If you have a terminally ill 262 00:13:22,167 --> 00:13:26,287 Speaker 3: parent or spouse, then you do have to do that. 263 00:13:26,367 --> 00:13:29,247 Speaker 3: Maybe if you've got a really close relationship, then you 264 00:13:29,287 --> 00:13:32,487 Speaker 3: can find privilege in it. But other people have almost 265 00:13:32,567 --> 00:13:36,207 Speaker 3: been forced to care for children they didn't want to have, 266 00:13:36,487 --> 00:13:40,127 Speaker 3: for example, and that's a totally different thing trad wife. 267 00:13:40,167 --> 00:13:43,087 Speaker 1: So Tia Leving's who I interue don't know filter this 268 00:13:43,127 --> 00:13:46,967 Speaker 1: week she talks about you know, you think of the 269 00:13:47,247 --> 00:13:50,647 Speaker 1: douggers and nineteen kids in counting in those communities, often 270 00:13:50,687 --> 00:13:53,807 Speaker 1: religious communities, where women contraception is not available to them 271 00:13:54,247 --> 00:13:56,447 Speaker 1: or it is against their religion, and they are essentially 272 00:13:56,487 --> 00:13:59,647 Speaker 1: encouraged slash coer slash forced to keep having children, keep 273 00:13:59,647 --> 00:14:03,047 Speaker 1: having children, so they're forced to stay in this caregiving 274 00:14:03,127 --> 00:14:04,807 Speaker 1: role and some. 275 00:14:04,767 --> 00:14:05,607 Speaker 3: Of all consuming. 276 00:14:05,847 --> 00:14:08,767 Speaker 1: Yeah, and not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody 277 00:14:08,807 --> 00:14:10,527 Speaker 1: does feel like it's a blessing, and many of them 278 00:14:10,527 --> 00:14:13,487 Speaker 1: become very resentful and also they're trapped. 279 00:14:13,647 --> 00:14:15,487 Speaker 2: I want to talk about the issue of do we 280 00:14:15,527 --> 00:14:17,847 Speaker 2: need to change our language and the attitudes we have 281 00:14:17,927 --> 00:14:21,207 Speaker 2: towards people who are in caring roles or taking on 282 00:14:21,247 --> 00:14:24,127 Speaker 2: caring responsibilities. Absolutely, we do. We need to give it 283 00:14:24,207 --> 00:14:27,607 Speaker 2: much more respect and importance and support, especially because it 284 00:14:27,607 --> 00:14:30,167 Speaker 2: affects so many women. But one of the reasons why 285 00:14:30,247 --> 00:14:32,287 Speaker 2: it's seen as a very difficult thing to do is 286 00:14:32,327 --> 00:14:35,127 Speaker 2: because very often the women, if we're calling the women 287 00:14:35,167 --> 00:14:37,127 Speaker 2: who are doing it, they have a lot of other 288 00:14:37,167 --> 00:14:40,847 Speaker 2: responsibilities too. Right when you are in a position where 289 00:14:40,887 --> 00:14:43,327 Speaker 2: you are yes caring for an elderly parent or a 290 00:14:43,407 --> 00:14:46,127 Speaker 2: child who is not as independent as they could be, 291 00:14:46,167 --> 00:14:48,367 Speaker 2: whether that's because of an illness or because of a circumstance, 292 00:14:48,447 --> 00:14:50,407 Speaker 2: or because of a mental illness or for whatever reason, 293 00:14:50,727 --> 00:14:53,487 Speaker 2: you're very often also having to work if you possibly can, 294 00:14:53,807 --> 00:14:55,967 Speaker 2: look after other people in your life, do all these 295 00:14:56,007 --> 00:15:00,607 Speaker 2: other things. So it's like unpaid labor. And I know 296 00:15:00,647 --> 00:15:02,847 Speaker 2: that it's not right to call it labor when it 297 00:15:02,967 --> 00:15:06,127 Speaker 2: is a privilege, but it's that's not a joyful if 298 00:15:06,167 --> 00:15:06,567 Speaker 2: it's to. 299 00:15:06,567 --> 00:15:09,407 Speaker 1: Wipe a baby's bum every day, or wipe a old 300 00:15:09,487 --> 00:15:12,367 Speaker 1: person's bum every day, or you know, you think about 301 00:15:12,367 --> 00:15:15,007 Speaker 1: the kids who are forced into caring roles with their 302 00:15:15,007 --> 00:15:19,087 Speaker 1: own parents due to their parents' mental illness or physical illness, 303 00:15:19,687 --> 00:15:22,607 Speaker 1: and it's the kid who, sometimes at a really young age, 304 00:15:22,647 --> 00:15:23,567 Speaker 1: has to do that well. 305 00:15:23,607 --> 00:15:28,207 Speaker 3: I think meaning and insight, and not to romanticize it 306 00:15:28,247 --> 00:15:32,647 Speaker 3: too much, but meaning an insight doesn't occur in a 307 00:15:32,727 --> 00:15:35,407 Speaker 3: three second wipe of a bum, right like that is 308 00:15:35,487 --> 00:15:39,847 Speaker 3: one part of one day that most parents, I think 309 00:15:39,847 --> 00:15:42,607 Speaker 3: are just like this. Is part of the caring. And 310 00:15:43,527 --> 00:15:46,007 Speaker 3: there was this podcast I was listening to recently by 311 00:15:46,007 --> 00:15:49,487 Speaker 3: a neuroscientist. He's called like a compassion researcher or something, 312 00:15:49,527 --> 00:15:51,287 Speaker 3: and he's done all this study and he just says, 313 00:15:51,287 --> 00:15:53,807 Speaker 3: we don't talk about caring and compassion enough for what 314 00:15:53,847 --> 00:15:56,847 Speaker 3: it does for the brain. But there's something called like 315 00:15:56,887 --> 00:15:59,887 Speaker 3: a helper's high when someone needs something like let's say 316 00:15:59,967 --> 00:16:03,087 Speaker 3: baby is crying and you give them what they need 317 00:16:03,127 --> 00:16:05,647 Speaker 3: and they stop crying. There is something that happens to 318 00:16:05,687 --> 00:16:09,927 Speaker 3: your brain, like a dopamine serotonin release. That's something that's 319 00:16:09,927 --> 00:16:13,047 Speaker 3: happened to us biologically so that we care for the species. 320 00:16:13,487 --> 00:16:15,967 Speaker 3: But if you never do it, because you never have 321 00:16:16,087 --> 00:16:18,367 Speaker 3: to do it, because you've never been a teen babysitter, 322 00:16:18,527 --> 00:16:21,127 Speaker 3: or you've never cared for another sibling, or you've never 323 00:16:21,127 --> 00:16:23,327 Speaker 3: looked after your mum when she was sick, or you've 324 00:16:23,367 --> 00:16:26,967 Speaker 3: never had any contact with a grandmother who was very ill, 325 00:16:27,127 --> 00:16:30,047 Speaker 3: then it looks really bad from the outside, right, Like 326 00:16:30,087 --> 00:16:30,967 Speaker 3: you can't see. 327 00:16:31,127 --> 00:16:33,087 Speaker 2: It's like what Vernon was talking about last week when 328 00:16:33,087 --> 00:16:34,687 Speaker 2: she was talking about she looks at people who've just 329 00:16:34,687 --> 00:16:36,607 Speaker 2: had a baby and she's like, your life looks awful. 330 00:16:36,887 --> 00:16:38,047 Speaker 3: Oh looks terrible. 331 00:16:38,127 --> 00:16:42,767 Speaker 1: But Jessie, what about the people who are caring for people? 332 00:16:42,927 --> 00:16:45,767 Speaker 1: They don't get that, They don't get the validation. You know. 333 00:16:45,847 --> 00:16:48,247 Speaker 1: It might be a child who is on the autism 334 00:16:48,287 --> 00:16:52,527 Speaker 1: spectrum and is nonverbal and is distressed, or caring for 335 00:16:52,567 --> 00:16:56,247 Speaker 1: someone with Alzheimer's who is violent or has dementia, and 336 00:16:56,287 --> 00:17:00,247 Speaker 1: there is no dopamine hit from I gave them what 337 00:17:00,327 --> 00:17:02,447 Speaker 1: they wanted and I did a good thing. There's no 338 00:17:02,527 --> 00:17:04,047 Speaker 1: sort of validation or a ward. 339 00:17:04,127 --> 00:17:06,527 Speaker 3: And this is what I found a really clever point 340 00:17:06,567 --> 00:17:09,647 Speaker 3: in this where she said that in reshaping a caring society, 341 00:17:10,167 --> 00:17:12,927 Speaker 3: cares need care and at the moment, cares have no care. 342 00:17:13,287 --> 00:17:15,847 Speaker 2: Yeah, that validation should come in that case from the 343 00:17:15,887 --> 00:17:16,847 Speaker 2: society around them. 344 00:17:17,207 --> 00:17:19,687 Speaker 3: What for if I'm a care So, for example, I 345 00:17:19,687 --> 00:17:22,327 Speaker 3: have an auntie. At the moment, it's laughable the amount 346 00:17:22,327 --> 00:17:23,687 Speaker 3: of care work she's doing on top of a full 347 00:17:23,687 --> 00:17:26,247 Speaker 3: time job. But she's caring for my grandfather with dementia 348 00:17:26,287 --> 00:17:30,047 Speaker 3: and two of my relatives with intellectual disabilities. Now that 349 00:17:30,247 --> 00:17:34,167 Speaker 3: is really really hard. Someone should be cooking her dinner, you. 350 00:17:34,207 --> 00:17:34,807 Speaker 1: Know what I mean. 351 00:17:34,927 --> 00:17:37,567 Speaker 3: Like you look at that and you go some like 352 00:17:37,887 --> 00:17:40,247 Speaker 3: and this is the stuff that our family cares about, 353 00:17:40,847 --> 00:17:43,647 Speaker 3: caring for the care and going Okay, you need to 354 00:17:43,687 --> 00:17:46,047 Speaker 3: not go and see your dad today, we're actually going 355 00:17:46,087 --> 00:17:48,407 Speaker 3: to get your sibling, or which you know we're trying 356 00:17:48,447 --> 00:17:50,047 Speaker 3: more and more to do, but. 357 00:17:50,247 --> 00:17:52,527 Speaker 2: It can be very hard for care is to accept care. 358 00:17:53,127 --> 00:17:55,807 Speaker 2: And when I spoke to Catherine may on med who's 359 00:17:55,807 --> 00:17:59,967 Speaker 2: an author who writes a lot about burnout and input 360 00:18:00,047 --> 00:18:02,007 Speaker 2: in and put out and all that stuff, she said 361 00:18:02,007 --> 00:18:04,327 Speaker 2: a lot about how caring is a privilege, but also 362 00:18:04,407 --> 00:18:07,767 Speaker 2: receiving care as a privilege. One of the brilliant examples 363 00:18:07,767 --> 00:18:09,607 Speaker 2: she had about this, and it goes back to the 364 00:18:09,607 --> 00:18:11,887 Speaker 2: idea of why you don't ask the woman who's doing 365 00:18:11,887 --> 00:18:14,727 Speaker 2: the care work for insights is, she said, for all 366 00:18:14,767 --> 00:18:18,407 Speaker 2: the sort of mindfulness programs people sign up for, and 367 00:18:18,847 --> 00:18:21,487 Speaker 2: you know they're searching for meaning in life, and they're 368 00:18:21,487 --> 00:18:23,967 Speaker 2: spending all this money to travel to far fulong places 369 00:18:24,007 --> 00:18:26,127 Speaker 2: and do meditation workshops, all of which is very worthy 370 00:18:26,127 --> 00:18:28,247 Speaker 2: if that's what you're doing, she said, In some ways, 371 00:18:28,287 --> 00:18:33,927 Speaker 2: there is no more mindful and grounding and thoughtful exercise 372 00:18:33,967 --> 00:18:37,407 Speaker 2: than getting up to a baby through the night over 373 00:18:37,487 --> 00:18:40,407 Speaker 2: and over again, or a sick person and choosing kindness 374 00:18:40,447 --> 00:18:42,927 Speaker 2: and not anger and trying to be calm and doing 375 00:18:43,007 --> 00:18:44,607 Speaker 2: it over and over again. And that's the thing, as 376 00:18:44,647 --> 00:18:48,367 Speaker 2: Mia said before about the repetition of caring work, is 377 00:18:48,407 --> 00:18:52,047 Speaker 2: that choosing kindness over and over again. When you go 378 00:18:52,207 --> 00:18:55,447 Speaker 2: and unlock your elderly mother's front door and you don't 379 00:18:55,487 --> 00:18:57,087 Speaker 2: know what you're going to find there, and you don't 380 00:18:57,127 --> 00:18:58,807 Speaker 2: know what kind of mental state they're going to be 381 00:18:58,847 --> 00:19:00,287 Speaker 2: in and what you might have to do to calm 382 00:19:00,327 --> 00:19:04,687 Speaker 2: them down, over and over and over again, you are 383 00:19:04,807 --> 00:19:08,447 Speaker 2: learning so much. And that sounds patronizing, as if like, 384 00:19:08,567 --> 00:19:11,287 Speaker 2: go you like you don't need any rewarding because you're 385 00:19:11,287 --> 00:19:14,167 Speaker 2: But it's just so true that we don't value it. 386 00:19:14,167 --> 00:19:16,087 Speaker 2: It's so true when it's actually very deep. 387 00:19:16,247 --> 00:19:18,127 Speaker 1: Well, you know how you said you don't think you're 388 00:19:18,167 --> 00:19:22,247 Speaker 1: a very nurturing person, and I actually think I am 389 00:19:22,287 --> 00:19:26,527 Speaker 1: the same, to my great shame, or I'm conditionally nurturing. 390 00:19:26,607 --> 00:19:29,847 Speaker 1: Do you think it's because we're more selfish than people 391 00:19:30,527 --> 00:19:33,687 Speaker 1: like Jesse's aunt, Yes, No. 392 00:19:33,607 --> 00:19:37,247 Speaker 3: I don't think personally. I think that you're both very caring. 393 00:19:37,287 --> 00:19:40,167 Speaker 3: But the people in my life who struggle with nurturing, 394 00:19:40,247 --> 00:19:43,087 Speaker 3: is it nurturing takes an enormous amount of patience. And 395 00:19:43,167 --> 00:19:45,967 Speaker 3: I think that's some people. They're fucking impatience. It's like 396 00:19:46,407 --> 00:19:50,167 Speaker 3: this keeps going, like when it's like I. 397 00:19:50,087 --> 00:19:52,727 Speaker 2: Will do anything for anyone that I love, of course, 398 00:19:52,887 --> 00:19:55,327 Speaker 2: and you know, when crisis brings something to your door, 399 00:19:55,367 --> 00:19:57,807 Speaker 2: you will handle it, and of course you will. So 400 00:19:57,847 --> 00:19:59,207 Speaker 2: I don't mean that I'm not nurturing, has it. 401 00:19:59,247 --> 00:20:01,607 Speaker 1: I'll be like, you know, the caring you're talking about 402 00:20:01,607 --> 00:20:04,567 Speaker 1: here is over a long period of time. It's endurance 403 00:20:04,607 --> 00:20:05,447 Speaker 1: caring essentially. 404 00:20:05,567 --> 00:20:07,807 Speaker 2: And I when I say I'm not, I don't think 405 00:20:07,847 --> 00:20:10,967 Speaker 2: i'm instinctively neur is that I know people. I have 406 00:20:11,047 --> 00:20:14,647 Speaker 2: people in my life who are exceptionally good at caring. 407 00:20:15,127 --> 00:20:17,207 Speaker 2: I just know that I'm not. I think it probably 408 00:20:17,287 --> 00:20:19,407 Speaker 2: is because I'm quite selfish, and I don't know. 409 00:20:20,327 --> 00:20:23,887 Speaker 3: It's also true a bit of a muscle, right, And 410 00:20:23,927 --> 00:20:25,607 Speaker 3: this is what they were trying to say, is that 411 00:20:25,647 --> 00:20:30,287 Speaker 3: it's like it can take a while to get into 412 00:20:30,327 --> 00:20:33,207 Speaker 3: that grooven, like any skill. I suppose, in a way 413 00:20:33,847 --> 00:20:35,967 Speaker 3: I was thinking about growing up, I lived with my 414 00:20:36,007 --> 00:20:38,927 Speaker 3: grandmother who had a stroke and she was blind, and 415 00:20:38,967 --> 00:20:41,127 Speaker 3: I lived with her for a lot of years, and 416 00:20:41,327 --> 00:20:44,567 Speaker 3: some of my first memories are and this is not recommended. 417 00:20:44,767 --> 00:20:47,327 Speaker 3: Alcohol companies will get to me, but I would get 418 00:20:47,367 --> 00:20:49,447 Speaker 3: like her scotch and soda and give it to her 419 00:20:49,487 --> 00:20:51,647 Speaker 3: at five o'clock every like just little job like that, 420 00:20:51,767 --> 00:20:55,087 Speaker 3: and like get her dessert for her and come and 421 00:20:55,087 --> 00:20:56,567 Speaker 3: sit and read to her or whatever. 422 00:20:57,087 --> 00:21:00,647 Speaker 1: I think that is an incredible lesson because I think 423 00:21:00,687 --> 00:21:03,887 Speaker 1: that one of the things we struggle with, particularly in 424 00:21:03,887 --> 00:21:07,967 Speaker 1: this generation where helicopter parenting is the default, is children 425 00:21:08,007 --> 00:21:09,687 Speaker 1: and young people thinking that they're this center of the 426 00:21:09,687 --> 00:21:12,967 Speaker 1: world and not ever putting anyone else's needs above their own, 427 00:21:13,047 --> 00:21:17,407 Speaker 1: because I don't think children instinctively want to do that, 428 00:21:17,487 --> 00:21:19,367 Speaker 1: like you want to go and play outside, or do 429 00:21:19,407 --> 00:21:20,527 Speaker 1: you want to sit with grandma? 430 00:21:20,727 --> 00:21:23,847 Speaker 3: And I never saw it as caring. I always saw 431 00:21:23,887 --> 00:21:27,807 Speaker 3: it as my relationship, which I got enormous amount back. 432 00:21:27,847 --> 00:21:30,087 Speaker 3: We would sit there, we would watch Doctor Phil, we'd 433 00:21:30,127 --> 00:21:32,367 Speaker 3: play Sale of the Century. She does trivia and we'd play. 434 00:21:32,447 --> 00:21:33,327 Speaker 1: So there was stuff in it. 435 00:21:33,367 --> 00:21:35,247 Speaker 3: I thought I was playing with my nan, But I 436 00:21:35,287 --> 00:21:37,727 Speaker 3: look back on it now and I'm caring. There was 437 00:21:37,767 --> 00:21:39,927 Speaker 3: an element of caring, and I wonder if. 438 00:21:39,847 --> 00:21:42,647 Speaker 2: And also giving respite to your mom, yeah, aunt or 439 00:21:42,727 --> 00:21:45,767 Speaker 2: whatever was and I also, I knew I was doing 440 00:21:45,807 --> 00:21:48,007 Speaker 2: a good thing when you do something for you in 441 00:21:48,007 --> 00:21:49,647 Speaker 2: that like she struggled to put her bra on, she 442 00:21:49,687 --> 00:21:51,407 Speaker 2: couldn't put it, so I'd help Nan put her bra on, 443 00:21:51,527 --> 00:21:53,447 Speaker 2: or I'd help her in the shower or whatever. 444 00:21:53,567 --> 00:21:56,767 Speaker 3: You walk away feeling pretty chuffed in saying that I 445 00:21:56,887 --> 00:21:58,447 Speaker 3: was a child and it wasn't my full time job. 446 00:21:58,687 --> 00:22:02,127 Speaker 3: But there were moments where I think now to looking 447 00:22:02,167 --> 00:22:05,687 Speaker 3: after Luna, and I've found it very difficult to explain 448 00:22:06,487 --> 00:22:11,007 Speaker 3: what the satisfaction feels like amongst the mundane, and that's 449 00:22:11,047 --> 00:22:13,167 Speaker 3: what it is. It's one of the best things for 450 00:22:13,287 --> 00:22:16,327 Speaker 3: my self worth. Yes, have been moments of caring. 451 00:22:16,647 --> 00:22:19,487 Speaker 1: It's just reading this week. Funnily enough, about one of 452 00:22:19,527 --> 00:22:25,127 Speaker 1: the most powerful ways to deepen your relationship with someone 453 00:22:25,607 --> 00:22:28,687 Speaker 1: is to ask them to do you a favor. Which 454 00:22:28,727 --> 00:22:30,847 Speaker 1: is counterintuitive, right because you would have think that to 455 00:22:30,967 --> 00:22:33,687 Speaker 1: offer someone a favor is how you have connection with them. 456 00:22:33,887 --> 00:22:36,927 Speaker 1: But there's something about the intimacy of someone asking you 457 00:22:37,007 --> 00:22:39,487 Speaker 1: to do a favor. I know I feel that way. 458 00:22:39,487 --> 00:22:41,527 Speaker 1: If someone asked me to do a favor, you feel 459 00:22:41,527 --> 00:22:43,887 Speaker 1: like I'm so close to them, and I do feel 460 00:22:43,927 --> 00:22:44,927 Speaker 1: like privileged. 461 00:22:45,327 --> 00:22:47,647 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, agree, And that's your brain going. If I'm 462 00:22:47,647 --> 00:22:49,447 Speaker 3: doing you a favor, I must really like you. 463 00:22:49,607 --> 00:22:51,767 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I get a lot of status from feeling 464 00:22:51,847 --> 00:22:54,247 Speaker 1: like I'm helping, But that tends to be a fairly 465 00:22:54,247 --> 00:22:54,967 Speaker 1: short term thing. 466 00:22:55,127 --> 00:22:58,887 Speaker 2: Can I throw a curly conundrum at you? So? On 467 00:22:59,207 --> 00:23:00,887 Speaker 2: the episode of Me to we launched this week, I 468 00:23:00,927 --> 00:23:03,167 Speaker 2: was talking to this woman called Leslie Morgan. There's episodes 469 00:23:03,207 --> 00:23:04,967 Speaker 2: about sex, and it's great, but that's not what this 470 00:23:05,007 --> 00:23:08,207 Speaker 2: is about. She's fifty nine and she is adamant that 471 00:23:08,247 --> 00:23:10,807 Speaker 2: she doesn't want to repart and I after her divorce 472 00:23:10,847 --> 00:23:13,367 Speaker 2: and she's had lots of relationships, and she said that 473 00:23:13,407 --> 00:23:17,087 Speaker 2: what everybody asks isn't she afraid of dying alone? And 474 00:23:17,127 --> 00:23:19,007 Speaker 2: I want to play you this and see what you think. 475 00:23:19,207 --> 00:23:22,247 Speaker 5: People always say to me, aren't you afraid? You know 476 00:23:22,327 --> 00:23:24,287 Speaker 5: you're going to die alone? And what I have to 477 00:23:24,327 --> 00:23:26,687 Speaker 5: say is, you know what. We are all going to 478 00:23:26,727 --> 00:23:29,367 Speaker 5: die alone. We are all going to die alone. Everybody 479 00:23:29,407 --> 00:23:32,607 Speaker 5: knows this. And have you met a man who is 480 00:23:32,727 --> 00:23:35,767 Speaker 5: capable of taking care of a woman, a dying woman, 481 00:23:35,807 --> 00:23:36,687 Speaker 5: an aged woman? 482 00:23:37,167 --> 00:23:38,967 Speaker 1: Older men, they don't put. 483 00:23:38,847 --> 00:23:41,927 Speaker 5: In their hearing aids. They're terrible at advocating for anybody. 484 00:23:41,967 --> 00:23:44,527 Speaker 5: They don't like hospitals, they don't like this. There's no 485 00:23:44,567 --> 00:23:46,127 Speaker 5: way on earth a man is going to take care 486 00:23:46,167 --> 00:23:48,607 Speaker 5: of us. I'm sorry to tell everybody listening to it, 487 00:23:48,847 --> 00:23:51,127 Speaker 5: but I'm actually happy to tell you this because it's true. 488 00:23:51,487 --> 00:23:53,687 Speaker 5: You're going to take care of you, and the people 489 00:23:53,727 --> 00:23:55,727 Speaker 5: are going to be there for you are your best friends, 490 00:23:56,087 --> 00:23:59,447 Speaker 5: male and female, the healthcare system, and your children if 491 00:23:59,487 --> 00:24:01,527 Speaker 5: you have them. That's just going to take care of you. 492 00:24:01,567 --> 00:24:03,607 Speaker 5: It's not going to be a man. There's no happily 493 00:24:03,647 --> 00:24:07,407 Speaker 5: ever after. And men think that women are going to 494 00:24:07,447 --> 00:24:09,927 Speaker 5: take care of them, and they're right because we've been 495 00:24:10,207 --> 00:24:11,967 Speaker 5: conditioned our whole life to do it. I'm not going 496 00:24:12,007 --> 00:24:13,487 Speaker 5: to do it, and I would urge you to think 497 00:24:13,567 --> 00:24:14,887 Speaker 5: about not doing it, because there are a lot better 498 00:24:14,967 --> 00:24:16,767 Speaker 5: things to do with your life than take care of 499 00:24:16,767 --> 00:24:19,007 Speaker 5: a man who would never take care of you anyway. 500 00:24:19,167 --> 00:24:21,847 Speaker 2: So that has pissed a few people off this statement. 501 00:24:22,247 --> 00:24:23,287 Speaker 2: I want to know what you think. 502 00:24:23,687 --> 00:24:27,527 Speaker 3: I would argue that men, I would like to do 503 00:24:27,567 --> 00:24:31,847 Speaker 3: a study that looked at men who spent a lot 504 00:24:31,847 --> 00:24:36,327 Speaker 3: of time with infant children and men who care for 505 00:24:36,447 --> 00:24:40,207 Speaker 3: elderly or sick or their spouse. I would like to 506 00:24:40,207 --> 00:24:42,327 Speaker 3: look at that ven diagram. I think that if you 507 00:24:42,367 --> 00:24:45,207 Speaker 3: are eighty years old and you're a man and your 508 00:24:45,287 --> 00:24:48,207 Speaker 3: wife becomes sick, I actually don't think you have any 509 00:24:48,207 --> 00:24:51,327 Speaker 3: skill set. You don't have any blueprint for what it 510 00:24:51,367 --> 00:24:53,647 Speaker 3: looks like to care for someone. And this is an 511 00:24:53,847 --> 00:24:54,927 Speaker 3: enormous generalization. 512 00:24:55,167 --> 00:24:58,207 Speaker 1: Oh, my grandfather cared for my grandmother. My friend's father 513 00:24:58,327 --> 00:25:01,927 Speaker 1: cared for her mother. I've seen it play out, definitely, 514 00:25:02,007 --> 00:25:03,127 Speaker 1: I've seen it play out. 515 00:25:03,247 --> 00:25:08,167 Speaker 3: I understand where the idea is coming from. Also, women 516 00:25:08,207 --> 00:25:10,327 Speaker 3: often live longer than men, so there's a lot of 517 00:25:10,367 --> 00:25:14,087 Speaker 3: women my marpens less often exactly. My nan used to 518 00:25:14,127 --> 00:25:17,407 Speaker 3: say her husband was a war veteran who lost a 519 00:25:17,527 --> 00:25:21,127 Speaker 3: leg and was quite disabled, and she used to sit 520 00:25:21,167 --> 00:25:24,247 Speaker 3: there at you know, eighty and go, I'm shitty, he's 521 00:25:24,287 --> 00:25:26,167 Speaker 3: not here. He never got to give it back, Like 522 00:25:26,367 --> 00:25:29,567 Speaker 3: he died before he could give the care back. 523 00:25:30,087 --> 00:25:30,287 Speaker 1: Yeah. 524 00:25:30,887 --> 00:25:33,127 Speaker 3: I know a lot of older women who feel like that. 525 00:25:33,207 --> 00:25:36,047 Speaker 3: But there was another great line in this that said, 526 00:25:36,487 --> 00:25:42,607 Speaker 3: ill disabled children, whatever it is, whatever context, they are 527 00:25:42,647 --> 00:25:46,327 Speaker 3: not welcome in neither are caregivers. And I thought that 528 00:25:46,527 --> 00:25:48,727 Speaker 3: is so true. That's what we've been trying to say 529 00:25:48,767 --> 00:25:51,927 Speaker 3: about you know, public spaces being welcome to children. But 530 00:25:52,007 --> 00:25:54,807 Speaker 3: you know, I've seen it with disability, with comments with 531 00:25:55,247 --> 00:25:57,927 Speaker 3: maybe it's someone being noisy, and maybe it's someone in 532 00:25:57,967 --> 00:26:01,807 Speaker 3: a cafe with their care who's you know, asking a 533 00:26:01,887 --> 00:26:03,687 Speaker 3: hundred questions and sitting a bit too close to you 534 00:26:03,767 --> 00:26:06,887 Speaker 3: or whatever. That's what the world looks like like it's 535 00:26:06,887 --> 00:26:07,927 Speaker 3: messy and it's chaotic. 536 00:26:08,167 --> 00:26:11,807 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree hundredercent to Leslie's thing. I think Mia, Yes, 537 00:26:11,887 --> 00:26:15,687 Speaker 2: we can all provide exceptions to that rule, including in 538 00:26:15,727 --> 00:26:18,167 Speaker 2: my family that my mother in law lived out all 539 00:26:18,207 --> 00:26:20,887 Speaker 2: her last years with one of her sons. He absolutely 540 00:26:21,007 --> 00:26:23,207 Speaker 2: views that as a privilege and says it was a 541 00:26:23,327 --> 00:26:25,647 Speaker 2: joy of his life to do it. But the idea 542 00:26:25,767 --> 00:26:29,287 Speaker 2: that when Leslie Morgan says so stridently, a man isn't 543 00:26:29,287 --> 00:26:32,647 Speaker 2: going to look after you. Obviously that's a provocative statement, 544 00:26:32,727 --> 00:26:35,767 Speaker 2: but what she means is they haven't been conditioned to 545 00:26:35,847 --> 00:26:39,007 Speaker 2: do that, to your point, Jesse, whereas women have and 546 00:26:39,087 --> 00:26:40,887 Speaker 2: just be like, well, this is my lot now, this 547 00:26:41,047 --> 00:26:43,007 Speaker 2: is what my life looks like for as long as 548 00:26:43,207 --> 00:26:46,607 Speaker 2: we whereas men are possibly more likely to go this 549 00:26:46,687 --> 00:26:49,007 Speaker 2: isn't what I signed up for. And I think it's 550 00:26:49,047 --> 00:26:52,727 Speaker 2: really interesting your point Jesse, Because as we blur the 551 00:26:52,847 --> 00:26:55,287 Speaker 2: lines of what manhood looks like a womanhood looks like, 552 00:26:55,327 --> 00:26:57,167 Speaker 2: and who's allowed to care and who stays home and 553 00:26:57,167 --> 00:27:00,607 Speaker 2: who doesn't, maybe those who are best suited to caring, 554 00:27:00,887 --> 00:27:14,447 Speaker 2: it won't be so gender divided. Mamma, it's Friday, so 555 00:27:14,527 --> 00:27:16,287 Speaker 2: we wanted to help set up your weekend with our 556 00:27:16,327 --> 00:27:20,367 Speaker 2: best recommendations as always me a Friedman. Actually, I think 557 00:27:20,407 --> 00:27:22,207 Speaker 2: you are listening to what I'm listening to. 558 00:27:22,447 --> 00:27:27,567 Speaker 1: Tell us chapel Rone. I don't know how I started 559 00:27:27,607 --> 00:27:32,007 Speaker 1: listening to her music. I know what it was. I 560 00:27:32,047 --> 00:27:35,367 Speaker 1: was reading about how some people were angry that Taylor 561 00:27:35,447 --> 00:27:39,167 Speaker 1: Swift keeps releasing slightly different versions of her album to 562 00:27:39,287 --> 00:27:42,207 Speaker 1: gain the charts and stay on top when there were 563 00:27:42,247 --> 00:27:44,927 Speaker 1: a couple of new releases Charlie XX with Brat and 564 00:27:45,007 --> 00:27:47,287 Speaker 1: Chapel Rone with the Rise and Fall of a Midwest 565 00:27:47,287 --> 00:27:51,047 Speaker 1: Princess to not new artists, but artists in that same 566 00:27:51,087 --> 00:27:55,407 Speaker 1: sort of demographic who released albums, and it's like Taylor 567 00:27:55,487 --> 00:27:57,847 Speaker 1: is jocking to keep them off the top of the charts, 568 00:27:58,127 --> 00:27:59,927 Speaker 1: which some people said was petty. So I was like, Oh, 569 00:27:59,927 --> 00:28:02,567 Speaker 1: who's chapel Roone. I probably have been in such a 570 00:28:02,607 --> 00:28:06,447 Speaker 1: deep tailor groove. I need to broaden my horizons, and 571 00:28:06,567 --> 00:28:08,487 Speaker 1: so I started listening to Chapel Rone and I was 572 00:28:08,527 --> 00:28:12,887 Speaker 1: a bit like, yep. Interesting. She uploaded a song when 573 00:28:12,927 --> 00:28:15,207 Speaker 1: she was seventeen called Die Young to YouTube, and then 574 00:28:15,287 --> 00:28:18,887 Speaker 1: she was signed by Atlantic Records in twenty seventeen. She 575 00:28:19,007 --> 00:28:22,407 Speaker 1: released her first album. She cut through in twenty twenty 576 00:28:22,447 --> 00:28:26,367 Speaker 1: with a single called Pink Pony Club, and her record 577 00:28:26,407 --> 00:28:28,807 Speaker 1: label dropped her that year, and then she released a 578 00:28:28,807 --> 00:28:34,007 Speaker 1: few independent things and reinvented herself. Her actual name is 579 00:28:34,127 --> 00:28:37,727 Speaker 1: Kaylie Rose and Stutz, but her stage name is Chapel 580 00:28:37,767 --> 00:28:41,367 Speaker 1: Roane and her esthetic is drag queen. Like she's not 581 00:28:41,407 --> 00:28:42,727 Speaker 1: a drag queen, but she's like Garga. 582 00:28:42,847 --> 00:28:46,807 Speaker 2: She's like old old world Gaga doing. There is one 583 00:28:46,847 --> 00:28:49,327 Speaker 2: song of hers at the minute that is everywhere you Go. 584 00:28:49,607 --> 00:28:51,447 Speaker 1: There's a single on the album called good Luck Babe, 585 00:28:51,447 --> 00:28:54,327 Speaker 1: which you've probably heard. My favorite song is actually not 586 00:28:54,367 --> 00:28:57,727 Speaker 1: on this new album. It's called Phemenomenon, which I'm obsessed with. 587 00:28:57,807 --> 00:29:00,447 Speaker 1: She released that a couple of years ago. But she's 588 00:29:00,487 --> 00:29:04,367 Speaker 1: that type of aesthetic with Charlie XCX and her where 589 00:29:04,367 --> 00:29:08,807 Speaker 1: it's like scary sexy, so it's very much not appealing 590 00:29:08,807 --> 00:29:12,407 Speaker 1: to them male gaze like her Aspeteka's drag queen. I'm 591 00:29:12,447 --> 00:29:15,007 Speaker 1: sure she's a queer woman. She talks about having sex 592 00:29:15,047 --> 00:29:19,567 Speaker 1: with women and she's incredibly cool and just refrect She's 593 00:29:19,567 --> 00:29:20,447 Speaker 1: a big Kate Bush. 594 00:29:21,287 --> 00:29:24,047 Speaker 2: It's amazing. The reason I know about her is literally 595 00:29:24,087 --> 00:29:27,847 Speaker 2: because there was this thing that she's your favorite artist's 596 00:29:27,847 --> 00:29:32,087 Speaker 2: favorite artist and that went viral and then I was like, 597 00:29:32,167 --> 00:29:34,447 Speaker 2: who is she? And then I listened to so and 598 00:29:34,527 --> 00:29:38,367 Speaker 2: she's amazing. Now I can't not play good Luck Babe 599 00:29:38,367 --> 00:29:41,327 Speaker 2: around the house all the time. Matilda thinks I'm so embarrassing. 600 00:29:42,287 --> 00:29:44,607 Speaker 2: I'm like, do you know who Chapel roon? And she's 601 00:29:44,647 --> 00:29:45,727 Speaker 2: just like, oh, I die. 602 00:29:46,127 --> 00:29:48,207 Speaker 1: And it's awful when your mum's listening to the same 603 00:29:48,287 --> 00:29:51,847 Speaker 1: music as you. Anyway, her album is The Rise and 604 00:29:51,887 --> 00:29:55,287 Speaker 1: Fall of a Midwest Princess. Get into your ears if 605 00:29:55,327 --> 00:29:56,927 Speaker 1: you want to be groovy, You've got. 606 00:29:56,847 --> 00:30:00,007 Speaker 3: A TV show, Jesse, I do I have the number 607 00:30:00,087 --> 00:30:03,207 Speaker 3: one recor of the year for me. This is the 608 00:30:03,247 --> 00:30:07,127 Speaker 3: best thing consume as well. 609 00:30:07,287 --> 00:30:09,087 Speaker 2: I don't trust her because she didn't like Fargo. 610 00:30:09,247 --> 00:30:10,167 Speaker 1: I trust him more than you. 611 00:30:10,207 --> 00:30:12,727 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I do too, know There's a new show 612 00:30:12,767 --> 00:30:16,767 Speaker 3: on Apple TV called Presumed Innocent and it has Jake Jillenhole. 613 00:30:17,327 --> 00:30:18,647 Speaker 2: Can somebody call my phone? 614 00:30:18,727 --> 00:30:19,407 Speaker 3: I'll call it. 615 00:30:20,887 --> 00:30:21,367 Speaker 1: Who is this? 616 00:30:22,047 --> 00:30:23,607 Speaker 6: Missus j d Let me tell your mom. 617 00:30:23,647 --> 00:30:24,567 Speaker 2: She looks beautiful. 618 00:30:25,207 --> 00:30:25,847 Speaker 5: Bye you guys. 619 00:30:27,727 --> 00:30:29,207 Speaker 6: I just want to make sure that we have everything 620 00:30:29,207 --> 00:30:29,967 Speaker 6: exactly right. 621 00:30:30,247 --> 00:30:31,167 Speaker 1: Let's get started. 622 00:30:31,767 --> 00:30:35,527 Speaker 6: You are aware the Carolina balloon, miss murder. When was the 623 00:30:35,567 --> 00:30:36,967 Speaker 6: last time you are in Carrollinn's apartment? 624 00:30:37,807 --> 00:30:40,927 Speaker 1: We had cases together. Sometimes we would work after hours 625 00:30:40,927 --> 00:30:45,407 Speaker 1: at her apartment. Your fingerprints were found in her bedroom. 626 00:30:45,567 --> 00:30:47,607 Speaker 1: Were you and Carolina or romantically. 627 00:30:49,167 --> 00:30:49,687 Speaker 5: Involved? 628 00:30:50,207 --> 00:30:52,647 Speaker 1: My suspect because they did. 629 00:30:52,527 --> 00:30:53,127 Speaker 5: Not kill her. 630 00:30:53,407 --> 00:30:56,247 Speaker 3: Jake Jillenhole is a brilliant actor. He's still got time 631 00:30:56,287 --> 00:30:59,087 Speaker 3: a scuff he does. And I keep thinking about that, 632 00:30:59,127 --> 00:31:01,447 Speaker 3: and I think all is forgiven. When you watch his 633 00:31:01,527 --> 00:31:03,487 Speaker 3: performance in this we forgive him for what he did 634 00:31:03,527 --> 00:31:07,687 Speaker 3: to Taylor. It is so suspenseful, so interesting. 635 00:31:07,767 --> 00:31:10,287 Speaker 1: Well I hate it now you'll love it. Is it violent? 636 00:31:10,687 --> 00:31:13,127 Speaker 3: It's crime, but it's not like you don't actually see 637 00:31:13,247 --> 00:31:17,607 Speaker 3: it starts off where prosecutor. That's Jake Gillenhole. He's this 638 00:31:17,647 --> 00:31:20,647 Speaker 3: prosecutor and he finds out that his colleague and fellow 639 00:31:20,647 --> 00:31:23,967 Speaker 3: prosecutor has been murdered in a way that resembles a 640 00:31:23,967 --> 00:31:26,087 Speaker 3: case they used to work on, and so you see 641 00:31:26,167 --> 00:31:27,247 Speaker 3: there's a bit of it's gory. 642 00:31:27,367 --> 00:31:27,967 Speaker 1: Is she a woman? 643 00:31:28,167 --> 00:31:30,247 Speaker 3: She's a woman who is the main character in the 644 00:31:30,247 --> 00:31:32,087 Speaker 3: Worst Person in the World, which is one of my 645 00:31:32,127 --> 00:31:35,407 Speaker 3: favorite movies of all time. Anyway, so he finds this 646 00:31:35,487 --> 00:31:37,807 Speaker 3: out and he's kind of the chief prosecutor, and then 647 00:31:37,847 --> 00:31:42,287 Speaker 3: it unfolds why he can't work on this case. And 648 00:31:42,407 --> 00:31:45,647 Speaker 3: it has some of the best twists. And I am 649 00:31:45,687 --> 00:31:47,087 Speaker 3: about six episodes. 650 00:31:46,687 --> 00:31:47,927 Speaker 2: In how many episodes? 651 00:31:48,127 --> 00:31:49,367 Speaker 3: I think they're seven or eight? 652 00:31:49,447 --> 00:31:50,167 Speaker 1: How long are they? 653 00:31:50,367 --> 00:31:53,367 Speaker 3: They actually vary. It's almost like watching these mini movies. 654 00:31:53,447 --> 00:31:55,607 Speaker 3: Luke and I got into bed last night and we went, 655 00:31:55,647 --> 00:31:56,207 Speaker 3: we're gonna. 656 00:31:56,087 --> 00:31:56,487 Speaker 2: Keep watching it. 657 00:31:56,567 --> 00:31:59,527 Speaker 3: Yeah, binging it, binging it. He goes to bed at nine. 658 00:31:59,607 --> 00:32:02,367 Speaker 3: It was ten forty five, and we could not turn 659 00:32:02,527 --> 00:32:05,367 Speaker 3: it off. Like I have no idea, you know, when 660 00:32:05,647 --> 00:32:07,567 Speaker 3: you're at the point end and you go, it could 661 00:32:07,647 --> 00:32:10,887 Speaker 3: be anyone. I can guess re television show. This one 662 00:32:11,087 --> 00:32:15,327 Speaker 3: has got me like the heaps of famous faces, brilliant scripting. 663 00:32:15,407 --> 00:32:18,087 Speaker 3: What's of courtroom? I love being in a courtroom. Jake 664 00:32:18,127 --> 00:32:21,167 Speaker 3: Jillen Hall as best. It is called Presumed Innocent. 665 00:32:21,687 --> 00:32:24,287 Speaker 2: Totally to watch that. I've seen it everywhere. It must 666 00:32:24,327 --> 00:32:27,687 Speaker 2: be good. I've got TV show too. It's also crime, 667 00:32:27,807 --> 00:32:29,927 Speaker 2: so this is a true crime binge for you this weekend. 668 00:32:29,967 --> 00:32:32,407 Speaker 2: It's also based on a true story, but it's also 669 00:32:32,607 --> 00:32:34,247 Speaker 2: very relevant to some of the things we've been talking 670 00:32:34,247 --> 00:32:36,527 Speaker 2: about lately. It's called Under the Banner of Heaven. It's 671 00:32:36,527 --> 00:32:39,527 Speaker 2: on SBS on demand, so it's free friends and it 672 00:32:39,607 --> 00:32:42,887 Speaker 2: stars Andrew Garfield, Daisy Egga, Jones, and Sam Worthington. 673 00:32:46,887 --> 00:32:51,607 Speaker 6: This stays between us in this case I'm working on. 674 00:32:52,447 --> 00:32:57,407 Speaker 6: It's a double murder. So far, what we've found isn't 675 00:32:57,487 --> 00:33:03,927 Speaker 6: pointing outward. The evidence points to things and to beliefs 676 00:33:05,447 --> 00:33:07,767 Speaker 6: that I have only ever heard whisperings about. 677 00:33:09,847 --> 00:33:13,527 Speaker 2: And it's set in Utah in nineteen eighty four, and 678 00:33:13,567 --> 00:33:16,367 Speaker 2: it's based on the true story of a murder that 679 00:33:16,447 --> 00:33:21,327 Speaker 2: happened within the Mormon community in Utah then, and Jones 680 00:33:21,407 --> 00:33:22,567 Speaker 2: is the victim of said murder. 681 00:33:22,567 --> 00:33:23,487 Speaker 1: How do I know her? Again? 682 00:33:24,047 --> 00:33:30,287 Speaker 2: She was normal people, normal people, craw dads. She's a 683 00:33:30,287 --> 00:33:33,407 Speaker 2: big star these days. The thing that's really interesting about 684 00:33:33,407 --> 00:33:36,527 Speaker 2: it is it's set in this tradwifey Mormon world, right, 685 00:33:37,567 --> 00:33:40,527 Speaker 2: and it delves into all of that world, but from 686 00:33:40,567 --> 00:33:43,967 Speaker 2: lots of different angles because the baddies in Inverted Commas 687 00:33:44,167 --> 00:33:48,127 Speaker 2: are in that world, but also the cop who's Andrew Garfield, 688 00:33:48,567 --> 00:33:50,807 Speaker 2: is also in that world. So he's LDS as they 689 00:33:50,807 --> 00:33:53,287 Speaker 2: call it, Church of the Latter day Saints, but so 690 00:33:53,367 --> 00:33:56,847 Speaker 2: are the victims. And it's like this amazing insight into 691 00:33:56,927 --> 00:34:01,487 Speaker 2: what that world is like, and it is who done it. 692 00:34:01,487 --> 00:34:04,047 Speaker 2: It's kind of thinky because it kind of goes back 693 00:34:04,047 --> 00:34:07,407 Speaker 2: in time or so to like the foundations of that religion. 694 00:34:07,967 --> 00:34:11,167 Speaker 2: But it's so good, so well done, it's so interesting, 695 00:34:11,247 --> 00:34:14,647 Speaker 2: and it's basically about what happens when women within that 696 00:34:14,687 --> 00:34:19,167 Speaker 2: religion start challenging the religion. And Andrew Garfield's character, the cop, 697 00:34:19,207 --> 00:34:21,447 Speaker 2: he has a very traditional marriage too, but he's not 698 00:34:22,047 --> 00:34:25,527 Speaker 2: quite so controlling as some of the really traditional guys. 699 00:34:25,727 --> 00:34:28,047 Speaker 2: And it talks about polygamy and it's just great anyway. 700 00:34:28,047 --> 00:34:30,167 Speaker 2: It's called Under the Banner of Heaven. It's on SBS 701 00:34:30,247 --> 00:34:32,527 Speaker 2: undermand and you can watch it whenever you want. For 702 00:34:32,607 --> 00:34:34,927 Speaker 2: links to all of our recommendations that we talk about 703 00:34:34,927 --> 00:34:37,607 Speaker 2: on the show, make sure you sign up to the 704 00:34:37,687 --> 00:34:40,847 Speaker 2: mumamea Out Loud newsletters. It's good, our friend em Vernon 705 00:34:40,887 --> 00:34:43,727 Speaker 2: writes it and it's got every recommendation that you would. 706 00:34:43,527 --> 00:34:45,927 Speaker 1: Like a lot of. Also behind the scenes footage of 707 00:34:46,007 --> 00:34:51,527 Speaker 1: us videos secrets, or put a link in the show notes. 708 00:34:53,687 --> 00:34:56,887 Speaker 3: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mummy 709 00:34:56,927 --> 00:35:00,487 Speaker 3: Are Out Loud just for Mummy subscribers. Follow the link 710 00:35:00,527 --> 00:35:02,647 Speaker 3: in the show notes to get your daily Joseph out 711 00:35:02,647 --> 00:35:15,287 Speaker 3: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers. 712 00:35:17,087 --> 00:35:19,807 Speaker 1: It is time for Best and Worst, the part of 713 00:35:19,847 --> 00:35:22,847 Speaker 1: the show where we share a little more from our 714 00:35:22,927 --> 00:35:28,287 Speaker 1: personal lives. I'm going to go first my worst. This 715 00:35:28,447 --> 00:35:32,607 Speaker 1: is just so basic. But I'm not getting any fresh 716 00:35:32,647 --> 00:35:37,487 Speaker 1: air out because I exercise indoors, which I always like. 717 00:35:37,807 --> 00:35:40,047 Speaker 1: I like it. It's safe, it's the same every day. 718 00:35:40,047 --> 00:35:41,327 Speaker 1: I don't have to think, I don't have to make 719 00:35:41,367 --> 00:35:44,687 Speaker 1: decisions the weather, it's all fine. And then I get 720 00:35:44,687 --> 00:35:47,447 Speaker 1: in my car and I drive to work. And then 721 00:35:47,487 --> 00:35:49,927 Speaker 1: I work in a building with no open windows. And 722 00:35:49,927 --> 00:35:51,607 Speaker 1: then I get back in my car and I go home. 723 00:35:51,727 --> 00:35:52,607 Speaker 1: You should get the bus. 724 00:35:52,647 --> 00:35:55,247 Speaker 2: I couldn't bear that. I go nuts if I don't 725 00:35:55,287 --> 00:35:56,047 Speaker 2: get some fresh air. 726 00:35:56,287 --> 00:35:58,047 Speaker 1: I don't have a garden, might only go for a 727 00:35:58,047 --> 00:36:01,127 Speaker 1: walk with the dogs. I don't know, because it's cold, 728 00:36:01,767 --> 00:36:07,287 Speaker 1: and yes, it's dark. It's something about winter like, because 729 00:36:07,327 --> 00:36:10,687 Speaker 1: in summer I'll go and sit out side. You know, 730 00:36:10,727 --> 00:36:12,447 Speaker 1: we've got a little outdoor area, and I can sit 731 00:36:12,487 --> 00:36:16,047 Speaker 1: outside and get fresh air, particularly on the weekends when 732 00:36:16,087 --> 00:36:18,047 Speaker 1: I get home from work, you know, have a little 733 00:36:18,087 --> 00:36:20,287 Speaker 1: cheeky glass of wine or cup of tea. But in 734 00:36:20,327 --> 00:36:23,207 Speaker 1: winter I don't, And so I'm just aware that I'm 735 00:36:23,287 --> 00:36:25,047 Speaker 1: just not breathing any fresh air. 736 00:36:25,207 --> 00:36:27,087 Speaker 2: And why is it your worst? Do you feel bad? 737 00:36:27,727 --> 00:36:29,167 Speaker 2: Like cousin? Do you feel a bit beat? 738 00:36:29,407 --> 00:36:30,607 Speaker 3: Do you need some vitamin day? 739 00:36:30,727 --> 00:36:33,607 Speaker 1: I feel like she does. I feel I feel like 740 00:36:33,647 --> 00:36:36,367 Speaker 1: I'm the air equivalent of scurvy. Does that make sense 741 00:36:36,927 --> 00:36:37,407 Speaker 1: a little bit? 742 00:36:37,527 --> 00:36:38,367 Speaker 2: Yeah? 743 00:36:38,407 --> 00:36:42,407 Speaker 1: So that's my worst. My best is on Saturday night, 744 00:36:42,887 --> 00:36:46,647 Speaker 1: I went over to my eldest son's house that's where 745 00:36:46,687 --> 00:36:48,127 Speaker 1: Jesse lives. That's where Jesse lives. 746 00:36:48,807 --> 00:36:51,247 Speaker 3: I was thankfully going out. I was like, bye, bitches, 747 00:36:51,287 --> 00:36:51,687 Speaker 3: I'm out. 748 00:36:51,887 --> 00:36:54,207 Speaker 1: She went out. I went over there with my younger 749 00:36:54,247 --> 00:36:57,967 Speaker 1: son and I spent the night eating pizza and watching 750 00:36:57,967 --> 00:37:02,487 Speaker 1: the Olympics with my two sons and I just I'm 751 00:37:02,527 --> 00:37:05,647 Speaker 1: about to cry. I had such a lovely time. 752 00:37:05,927 --> 00:37:08,007 Speaker 3: You forgot to mention the part where you also came 753 00:37:08,007 --> 00:37:13,167 Speaker 3: over on Friday night and watch the Olympically. Both nights 754 00:37:13,287 --> 00:37:17,407 Speaker 3: we had a glass of wine. You brought up Dinner's 755 00:37:17,447 --> 00:37:17,927 Speaker 3: worst night. 756 00:37:18,527 --> 00:37:19,607 Speaker 2: She just can have a seizure. 757 00:37:20,007 --> 00:37:22,887 Speaker 1: It's very upsetting for Holly because it's too much together. 758 00:37:23,247 --> 00:37:26,167 Speaker 1: But I did. And you know what, the Olympics is 759 00:37:26,207 --> 00:37:30,207 Speaker 1: bringing families together. What I've really missed is the monoculture, 760 00:37:30,327 --> 00:37:32,087 Speaker 1: because like, if you just look at the you know, 761 00:37:32,127 --> 00:37:34,927 Speaker 1: you've said you're watching a show with Luca, but I 762 00:37:34,927 --> 00:37:37,647 Speaker 1: can't come and watch that with you. You're watching a show. 763 00:37:38,567 --> 00:37:41,247 Speaker 1: My kids are watching something on YouTube able to try. 764 00:37:41,287 --> 00:37:43,567 Speaker 1: I'm like, what are we watching? 765 00:37:43,767 --> 00:37:44,647 Speaker 2: Oh? Too gruesome? 766 00:37:44,887 --> 00:37:47,687 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you know my kids are watching something 767 00:37:47,687 --> 00:37:50,207 Speaker 1: and everyone's watching on their laptops. I mean, no one 768 00:37:50,247 --> 00:37:53,007 Speaker 1: sits around the TV anymore. But even last night I 769 00:37:53,127 --> 00:37:54,727 Speaker 1: was out having dinner with a girlfriend and in the 770 00:37:54,727 --> 00:37:57,047 Speaker 1: family group chat, Jase was like, everyone come downstairs and 771 00:37:57,127 --> 00:38:00,247 Speaker 1: let's watch the Olympics. And you know, we're at a 772 00:38:00,327 --> 00:38:03,607 Speaker 1: stage where we've got people in really different life stages, 773 00:38:03,727 --> 00:38:06,607 Speaker 1: in and out of the house, Social Lives, whatever, and 774 00:38:06,687 --> 00:38:09,687 Speaker 1: it's just a lovely thing that there's no plot really, 775 00:38:09,967 --> 00:38:11,847 Speaker 1: you just all sit there and you watch whatever. And 776 00:38:11,887 --> 00:38:14,567 Speaker 1: the other thing that was just beautiful is that both 777 00:38:14,607 --> 00:38:16,967 Speaker 1: of my sons fell asleep at I think it was 778 00:38:17,007 --> 00:38:19,327 Speaker 1: eight thirty on the couch, and so did the dog. 779 00:38:19,607 --> 00:38:21,567 Speaker 1: So I was sitting on the couch in Jesse's house 780 00:38:22,007 --> 00:38:24,927 Speaker 1: watching the Olympics by myself, and suddenly it just goes quiet, 781 00:38:25,167 --> 00:38:29,487 Speaker 1: and I was just chatting away, and then I realized, oh, 782 00:38:29,767 --> 00:38:30,847 Speaker 1: everyone's asleep. 783 00:38:30,927 --> 00:38:32,927 Speaker 3: You know what's great about the Olympics too, is that 784 00:38:33,327 --> 00:38:37,447 Speaker 3: the commentary is good but not yes, listen, so you 785 00:38:37,487 --> 00:38:40,407 Speaker 3: can chat the whole time while you watch it. It's 786 00:38:40,447 --> 00:38:42,007 Speaker 3: quite a social experies to me. 787 00:38:42,207 --> 00:38:45,647 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm asking questions. I'm like, what's that person? Oh, 788 00:38:45,727 --> 00:38:47,727 Speaker 1: look it they've got good hair removal? How come no 789 00:38:47,767 --> 00:38:51,047 Speaker 1: one's popping a flap? And then like, it's just I 790 00:38:51,087 --> 00:38:52,127 Speaker 1: can't imagine why the. 791 00:38:52,087 --> 00:38:57,287 Speaker 2: Boys fell asleep. Okay, my worst of the week. I 792 00:38:57,407 --> 00:39:01,367 Speaker 2: asked for and received a special dispensation to talk about 793 00:39:01,367 --> 00:39:03,967 Speaker 2: this today because I couldn't not. Generally, our rule on 794 00:39:04,047 --> 00:39:08,727 Speaker 2: Fridays is no news cycle best and worst included. But 795 00:39:09,087 --> 00:39:11,927 Speaker 2: I have been very distressed this week at what's going 796 00:39:11,967 --> 00:39:14,967 Speaker 2: on in Britain. There have been riots across the country 797 00:39:15,047 --> 00:39:17,167 Speaker 2: and I really wanted to talk about it because I 798 00:39:17,207 --> 00:39:19,927 Speaker 2: think there's also just stuff to learn from this horror, 799 00:39:20,007 --> 00:39:22,967 Speaker 2: and so I got a special permission to do this. 800 00:39:23,207 --> 00:39:27,647 Speaker 2: So last Monday, a truly unthinkable crime, one that there's 801 00:39:27,647 --> 00:39:31,287 Speaker 2: literally no words for, happened in a small town in 802 00:39:31,327 --> 00:39:33,887 Speaker 2: England called Southport. It's in the northwest. It's about an 803 00:39:33,887 --> 00:39:36,687 Speaker 2: hour from where I grew up in Manchester. A young 804 00:39:36,767 --> 00:39:41,007 Speaker 2: man murdered three little girls and injured eight other children 805 00:39:41,207 --> 00:39:43,927 Speaker 2: and the adults who tried desperately to save them at 806 00:39:43,967 --> 00:39:46,287 Speaker 2: a little kids dance class on the first day of 807 00:39:46,327 --> 00:39:49,807 Speaker 2: school holidays. I'm going to say those girls' names because 808 00:39:49,847 --> 00:39:51,887 Speaker 2: I just think we've got to honor their lives. I 809 00:39:51,927 --> 00:39:55,687 Speaker 2: know this is very heavy. Bb King was six, else 810 00:39:55,807 --> 00:39:59,927 Speaker 2: Dot stand Home was seven, and Alice da Silva Agua 811 00:40:00,127 --> 00:40:03,687 Speaker 2: was nine. It's the kind of horror that Sydney Ciders 812 00:40:04,007 --> 00:40:07,207 Speaker 2: are too familiar with after Westfield Bondi Junction attack in 813 00:40:07,247 --> 00:40:11,487 Speaker 2: April this year, completely out of the blue, completely unimaginable, 814 00:40:11,807 --> 00:40:16,047 Speaker 2: the stuff of absolute nightmares. Right the young man arrested 815 00:40:16,047 --> 00:40:18,487 Speaker 2: and charged with this crime. He was arrested and charged 816 00:40:18,527 --> 00:40:21,647 Speaker 2: at the scene, very close to the scene, seventeen years old, 817 00:40:22,447 --> 00:40:25,367 Speaker 2: and in the chaotic hours after this attack, his name 818 00:40:25,407 --> 00:40:28,247 Speaker 2: and identity were withheld from the public because he's a minor, 819 00:40:28,447 --> 00:40:31,167 Speaker 2: right and that's the law in Britain at least, But 820 00:40:31,247 --> 00:40:34,567 Speaker 2: what happened next is still roiling through Britain's towns and 821 00:40:34,607 --> 00:40:38,247 Speaker 2: cities right now. Rumors immediately spread and were fueled and 822 00:40:38,327 --> 00:40:40,927 Speaker 2: fanned online that the attacker was a refugee who had 823 00:40:41,007 --> 00:40:43,207 Speaker 2: arrived illegally on a boat, and that's a really hot 824 00:40:43,247 --> 00:40:45,367 Speaker 2: button issue in Britain at the minute, as we're all 825 00:40:45,367 --> 00:40:48,327 Speaker 2: familiar with here in Australia, particularly on the back of 826 00:40:48,367 --> 00:40:52,167 Speaker 2: the recent elections there where a party called UK Reform 827 00:40:52,327 --> 00:40:54,807 Speaker 2: got four million votes so did really well, and they're 828 00:40:54,807 --> 00:40:57,247 Speaker 2: a right wing party who pushed very hard on anti 829 00:40:57,247 --> 00:41:02,087 Speaker 2: immigration and anti refugees. A crowd of people, fueled by 830 00:41:02,087 --> 00:41:05,807 Speaker 2: these rumors, formed outside the local mosque at Southport and 831 00:41:05,847 --> 00:41:08,887 Speaker 2: tried to break in. They attacked police, they caused damage 832 00:41:08,887 --> 00:41:12,247 Speaker 2: and harm an injury, and since then these so called 833 00:41:12,287 --> 00:41:15,447 Speaker 2: protests have spread all across England, particularly in the Northwest, 834 00:41:15,447 --> 00:41:18,527 Speaker 2: but not only in other places too, on tempered by 835 00:41:18,567 --> 00:41:21,087 Speaker 2: the truth of the matter, which actually got exposed this 836 00:41:21,127 --> 00:41:24,927 Speaker 2: week when they lifted the restrictions on reporting because they 837 00:41:24,967 --> 00:41:27,647 Speaker 2: wanted to end these rumors, and the fact that the 838 00:41:27,687 --> 00:41:31,967 Speaker 2: young man, the alleged attacker, obviously was born in the UK. 839 00:41:32,727 --> 00:41:34,407 Speaker 2: He was born in Wales, and he lived just down 840 00:41:34,407 --> 00:41:36,287 Speaker 2: the road from where this happened, and here's the child 841 00:41:36,327 --> 00:41:39,727 Speaker 2: of rwundant parents. His identity was revealed just before his 842 00:41:39,767 --> 00:41:43,327 Speaker 2: eighteenth birthday by the judge who was like, enough, the 843 00:41:43,447 --> 00:41:47,167 Speaker 2: riots are ugly and they're violent. They've been softly encouraged 844 00:41:47,167 --> 00:41:50,207 Speaker 2: by right wing commentators and online conspiracists and lots of 845 00:41:50,207 --> 00:41:53,327 Speaker 2: the familiar names like Andrew Tait who are insisting that 846 00:41:53,447 --> 00:41:56,047 Speaker 2: this is terrorism and that the police are hiding something 847 00:41:56,607 --> 00:41:58,647 Speaker 2: and there's something. So there's no. 848 00:41:58,607 --> 00:42:01,567 Speaker 1: Evidence for that. There's no evidence to ask about what 849 00:42:01,607 --> 00:42:06,407 Speaker 1: you just explained. So the alleged attacker was not in 850 00:42:06,447 --> 00:42:10,367 Speaker 1: fact a refugee who arrived on a boat, and it 851 00:42:10,487 --> 00:42:13,487 Speaker 1: was just similar to the Westfield Bondy junction. 852 00:42:13,727 --> 00:42:16,087 Speaker 2: It was just well, we don't know, I don't know, right, 853 00:42:16,247 --> 00:42:19,367 Speaker 2: so we don't know. He's appeared in court and there 854 00:42:19,367 --> 00:42:21,767 Speaker 2: are discussions about his mental state, of course, and all 855 00:42:21,767 --> 00:42:24,727 Speaker 2: those things, but we don't know. But there is no 856 00:42:24,767 --> 00:42:29,847 Speaker 2: evidence at all or that religion played any part of this. 857 00:42:30,247 --> 00:42:34,927 Speaker 2: That's all entirely unknown. And the thing is that's so distressing. 858 00:42:34,967 --> 00:42:36,967 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just stressing on so many levels. But 859 00:42:37,047 --> 00:42:41,007 Speaker 2: the trauma of this entire community, devastated by the loss 860 00:42:41,007 --> 00:42:44,087 Speaker 2: of these little innocent girls, has been co opted by 861 00:42:44,167 --> 00:42:48,047 Speaker 2: fake news, by rage bait, by all this hatred and 862 00:42:48,087 --> 00:42:51,447 Speaker 2: these gangs of mostly masked which we talked about recently 863 00:42:51,487 --> 00:42:55,167 Speaker 2: on the show too, of mostly masked racist thugs who 864 00:42:55,207 --> 00:43:01,527 Speaker 2: are openly throwing Nazi salutes, wearing swastickers, attacking mosques, attacking 865 00:43:01,607 --> 00:43:05,727 Speaker 2: hotels that house asylum seekers, they're fighting with police, they're 866 00:43:05,727 --> 00:43:09,087 Speaker 2: attacking police dogs there. It's just it's horrifying. And one 867 00:43:09,087 --> 00:43:10,767 Speaker 2: of the things I keep thinking about when I was 868 00:43:10,767 --> 00:43:13,407 Speaker 2: watching this footage and why I wanted to talk about it. 869 00:43:13,407 --> 00:43:16,807 Speaker 2: It's something that some commentators, including our own Emily Vernon 870 00:43:17,047 --> 00:43:20,127 Speaker 2: said after that terrible day at Bondi Junction. She was 871 00:43:20,127 --> 00:43:21,407 Speaker 2: on the show and she said this, and I know 872 00:43:21,447 --> 00:43:22,967 Speaker 2: she wasn't alone, and she said that a lot of 873 00:43:23,007 --> 00:43:27,727 Speaker 2: black and brown Australians held their breath when that attack 874 00:43:27,767 --> 00:43:31,527 Speaker 2: happened until they heard the news that the attacker was 875 00:43:31,607 --> 00:43:34,967 Speaker 2: not black or brown themselves, and a lot of people 876 00:43:35,007 --> 00:43:37,487 Speaker 2: were like, what is it, irrelevance? What does it matter? 877 00:43:38,327 --> 00:43:40,887 Speaker 2: If that had been the case, the tone of the 878 00:43:40,927 --> 00:43:43,167 Speaker 2: response would have been completely different. This is not to 879 00:43:43,207 --> 00:43:46,607 Speaker 2: say in any way like, of course that the incidents 880 00:43:47,207 --> 00:43:49,927 Speaker 2: there or here, they don't change the severity of that 881 00:43:50,047 --> 00:43:54,407 Speaker 2: and the horror what we're seeing playing out there, fueled 882 00:43:54,407 --> 00:43:56,967 Speaker 2: by this populist right. It's not unthinkable that's what would 883 00:43:56,967 --> 00:43:58,767 Speaker 2: have happened in Australia. I know we're in a different 884 00:43:58,767 --> 00:44:01,447 Speaker 2: country and it's just devastating to me that we're here 885 00:44:01,487 --> 00:44:03,047 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four. When I was a kid in 886 00:44:03,047 --> 00:44:05,647 Speaker 2: the eighties in Britain, there was the National Front who 887 00:44:05,647 --> 00:44:08,727 Speaker 2: were like a sort of racist swastika wearing skinhead par 888 00:44:09,407 --> 00:44:11,447 Speaker 2: you think it's from the past, you know, which I 889 00:44:11,487 --> 00:44:14,207 Speaker 2: guess is one of the lessons. Anyway, that's my worst 890 00:44:14,207 --> 00:44:16,087 Speaker 2: of the week. I just find it so distressing. If 891 00:44:16,127 --> 00:44:18,847 Speaker 2: there is a silver lining, it's that there are people, 892 00:44:19,367 --> 00:44:22,687 Speaker 2: ordinary people like the woman pat from Liverpool who's got 893 00:44:22,727 --> 00:44:26,607 Speaker 2: her NaNs against Nazi's sign, who are gathering outside these 894 00:44:26,647 --> 00:44:29,647 Speaker 2: mosques and outside these hotels and trying to sort of 895 00:44:29,887 --> 00:44:33,927 Speaker 2: tell these assholes to go away. That's my worst of 896 00:44:33,967 --> 00:44:36,287 Speaker 2: the week. My best of the week involves my friend 897 00:44:36,327 --> 00:44:39,887 Speaker 2: Mia right on our subscriber episode this week on Tuesday. Miha, 898 00:44:39,847 --> 00:44:42,607 Speaker 2: I'll be uncomfortable about this because she doesn't like holding 899 00:44:42,607 --> 00:44:44,447 Speaker 2: herself up as a poster person for this or whatever, 900 00:44:44,487 --> 00:44:47,407 Speaker 2: which I totally understand. But we talked about MIA's food 901 00:44:47,447 --> 00:44:51,487 Speaker 2: fixations in relation to her ADHD, and I realized that 902 00:44:51,647 --> 00:44:54,407 Speaker 2: very often when I'm talking to Mia and other friends 903 00:44:54,447 --> 00:44:57,967 Speaker 2: of mine who are neurodivergent and my son, who is neurodivergent. Obviously, 904 00:44:58,007 --> 00:45:00,487 Speaker 2: I don't want to be specific about protect Billy's privacy 905 00:45:00,487 --> 00:45:03,327 Speaker 2: as much as possible, but there's a little overlap between 906 00:45:03,647 --> 00:45:04,127 Speaker 2: Mia and. 907 00:45:04,287 --> 00:45:07,087 Speaker 1: I understand Billy so well in my soul, I. 908 00:45:07,007 --> 00:45:10,407 Speaker 2: Often ask questions like that, I'm kind of looking to solve, 909 00:45:10,727 --> 00:45:12,687 Speaker 2: like fix things somehow. And I was saying to me, 910 00:45:12,727 --> 00:45:15,127 Speaker 2: and I was telling us all about how she eats 911 00:45:15,167 --> 00:45:17,847 Speaker 2: the same food like it makes her feel safe. She's 912 00:45:17,847 --> 00:45:19,567 Speaker 2: the same food, And I was like, but how can 913 00:45:19,607 --> 00:45:22,887 Speaker 2: you change and how can I check? Because my son 914 00:45:23,087 --> 00:45:24,927 Speaker 2: is very similar and that he has a very limited 915 00:45:25,887 --> 00:45:28,127 Speaker 2: palette and very limited diet. And one of the things 916 00:45:28,167 --> 00:45:30,647 Speaker 2: about parenting, particularly in this day and age, it seems, 917 00:45:30,727 --> 00:45:34,247 Speaker 2: is like there's an obsession with healthy food and varied 918 00:45:34,287 --> 00:45:37,607 Speaker 2: food and food lover and I'm like quizzing me because 919 00:45:37,607 --> 00:45:39,607 Speaker 2: I'm hoping there's going to be some insight into how 920 00:45:39,607 --> 00:45:41,767 Speaker 2: I can make Billy eat all these things he doesn't eat. 921 00:45:42,007 --> 00:45:43,727 Speaker 2: And Mia just said to me at one point, because 922 00:45:43,767 --> 00:45:45,407 Speaker 2: I said, well, there's this one thing that Billy e 923 00:45:45,407 --> 00:45:46,927 Speaker 2: eat and She's like, well, why don't you just let 924 00:45:47,007 --> 00:45:47,967 Speaker 2: him eat that every day? 925 00:45:48,127 --> 00:45:51,727 Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, I thought I would just 926 00:45:51,727 --> 00:45:52,607 Speaker 3: get up and fight a battle. 927 00:45:52,767 --> 00:45:55,207 Speaker 2: I thought a very single day I would rail against 928 00:45:55,247 --> 00:45:57,367 Speaker 2: my son. And I went home on Monday night after 929 00:45:57,367 --> 00:45:59,287 Speaker 2: we'd record that show and I told Brent about it, 930 00:45:59,327 --> 00:46:01,887 Speaker 2: and I was like, every day, and There'll be lots 931 00:46:01,927 --> 00:46:05,007 Speaker 2: of families around the country here every day we have 932 00:46:05,327 --> 00:46:08,687 Speaker 2: a discussion, a fight, an argument, a drama about food 933 00:46:08,727 --> 00:46:11,767 Speaker 2: in our house us maybe we just don't need to 934 00:46:11,767 --> 00:46:13,287 Speaker 2: have a lot. My best of the week is just 935 00:46:13,367 --> 00:46:15,767 Speaker 2: that I learn a lot from you, Mia, and you're 936 00:46:15,847 --> 00:46:18,447 Speaker 2: very generous sharing. You've made me look at something in 937 00:46:18,487 --> 00:46:19,527 Speaker 2: a different way, and thank you. 938 00:46:20,207 --> 00:46:24,127 Speaker 3: My worst of the week is also quite heavy. Our 939 00:46:24,167 --> 00:46:27,287 Speaker 3: family have had a really rough few weeks and this 940 00:46:27,367 --> 00:46:30,247 Speaker 3: kind of fits into the theme of today's show about caring. 941 00:46:30,807 --> 00:46:33,207 Speaker 3: But my cousin Simon, who have talked about a lot 942 00:46:33,367 --> 00:46:37,167 Speaker 3: on this podcast, is in disability accommodation because he has 943 00:46:37,207 --> 00:46:40,527 Speaker 3: an intellectual disability which impacts speech and motor skills and 944 00:46:40,647 --> 00:46:43,527 Speaker 3: a number of other things, and so he is given 945 00:46:43,607 --> 00:46:47,567 Speaker 3: like a grant by the NDIS who fund his like 946 00:46:47,767 --> 00:46:49,167 Speaker 3: housing and all those sorts of. 947 00:46:49,087 --> 00:46:51,647 Speaker 1: Things, so he can live semi independently. 948 00:46:52,087 --> 00:46:56,087 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly right. And in the last six months some 949 00:46:56,167 --> 00:47:00,167 Speaker 3: really serious allegations have been made about the accommodation that 950 00:47:00,207 --> 00:47:02,567 Speaker 3: he was in. There were some allegations made that were 951 00:47:02,607 --> 00:47:05,727 Speaker 3: really distressing to the family. We took him out immediately. 952 00:47:06,367 --> 00:47:09,207 Speaker 3: It was very difficult to find other accommodation. We found 953 00:47:09,287 --> 00:47:11,847 Speaker 3: the ndis really difficult to get on the phone too, 954 00:47:12,127 --> 00:47:15,807 Speaker 3: and to report and get action and all of that. 955 00:47:15,807 --> 00:47:17,527 Speaker 3: That was really hard. And then we moved to Simon 956 00:47:18,607 --> 00:47:21,287 Speaker 3: and then we discovered just in the last few weeks 957 00:47:21,447 --> 00:47:24,607 Speaker 3: that there has been another allegation made that is really 958 00:47:24,647 --> 00:47:27,807 Speaker 3: really serious, and for Simon's privacy, I won't say what 959 00:47:27,887 --> 00:47:31,607 Speaker 3: it is, but if the person who allegedly perpetrated it 960 00:47:31,767 --> 00:47:35,367 Speaker 3: were found guilty, then he would be convicted and go 961 00:47:35,407 --> 00:47:38,607 Speaker 3: to prison. Is very serious and so immediately we were like, 962 00:47:39,167 --> 00:47:41,527 Speaker 3: we need to speak to the NDAs. We've got a 963 00:47:41,767 --> 00:47:44,247 Speaker 3: coordinator who helps us navigate the NDIS. 964 00:47:44,327 --> 00:47:46,647 Speaker 1: It's really hard, and it's made sense of some of 965 00:47:46,687 --> 00:47:49,607 Speaker 1: the behaviors in Simon that have been different since you 966 00:47:49,647 --> 00:47:51,247 Speaker 1: moved him out of the home because you moved him 967 00:47:51,287 --> 00:47:53,487 Speaker 1: out of the home, not because of what you thought 968 00:47:53,487 --> 00:47:55,607 Speaker 1: had happened to him, but because of other things in 969 00:47:55,687 --> 00:47:58,807 Speaker 1: the home. Yes, and some behaviors have been very challenging 970 00:47:59,047 --> 00:48:01,927 Speaker 1: and distressing that you now understand better and different. 971 00:48:02,447 --> 00:48:05,367 Speaker 3: And so we've had this coordinator who has been trying 972 00:48:05,367 --> 00:48:08,207 Speaker 3: to get onto the NDAs dozens and dozens of emails 973 00:48:08,247 --> 00:48:11,127 Speaker 3: and this is my auntie and my mum and me, 974 00:48:11,487 --> 00:48:13,607 Speaker 3: and we're trying to get an answer, for example, to 975 00:48:13,647 --> 00:48:17,207 Speaker 3: the question did this support worker have any clearance to 976 00:48:17,247 --> 00:48:19,087 Speaker 3: be working with someone like Simon. We can't get an 977 00:48:19,127 --> 00:48:22,767 Speaker 3: answer to that. The provider has still been sort of 978 00:48:22,807 --> 00:48:26,407 Speaker 3: on the NDIS website. Is a recommended provider still now? 979 00:48:26,647 --> 00:48:26,847 Speaker 5: Yeah? 980 00:48:26,887 --> 00:48:28,047 Speaker 1: And so we're still operating. 981 00:48:28,127 --> 00:48:29,967 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're still operating, and we've got a whole family 982 00:48:30,007 --> 00:48:32,407 Speaker 3: of teachers who know how education works, which is that 983 00:48:32,447 --> 00:48:36,407 Speaker 3: when an allegation, a serious allegation is made, you stand 984 00:48:36,407 --> 00:48:39,127 Speaker 3: someone down for a minute and you investigate it. 985 00:48:39,167 --> 00:48:41,087 Speaker 1: And the allegation was not made by Simon, it was 986 00:48:41,127 --> 00:48:42,367 Speaker 1: made by someone. 987 00:48:42,207 --> 00:48:46,607 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly else, And then he was interviewed by detectives, 988 00:48:46,767 --> 00:48:50,167 Speaker 3: and the detectives have basically said, if Simon can't attest 989 00:48:50,247 --> 00:48:52,967 Speaker 3: to what happened, then we're stuck. We've got our hands tied. 990 00:48:53,367 --> 00:48:57,167 Speaker 3: Simon is, for anyone who's not his family, very difficult 991 00:48:57,207 --> 00:49:00,567 Speaker 3: to understand. It's not something he's able to articulate. We 992 00:49:00,647 --> 00:49:03,047 Speaker 3: want to know about, like psychological support, Where do we 993 00:49:03,087 --> 00:49:07,367 Speaker 3: go forward without retraumatizing him or asking questions that will 994 00:49:07,367 --> 00:49:08,567 Speaker 3: be distressing. 995 00:49:08,127 --> 00:49:10,887 Speaker 1: And what justice is there for someone because if. 996 00:49:10,847 --> 00:49:14,487 Speaker 3: That provider is still operating, and we know that there 997 00:49:14,527 --> 00:49:18,127 Speaker 3: are people in there who are also nonverbal. 998 00:49:17,687 --> 00:49:19,887 Speaker 1: Vulnerable, they are the. 999 00:49:19,327 --> 00:49:23,967 Speaker 3: Most vulnerable people in the world being cared for by 1000 00:49:24,727 --> 00:49:27,967 Speaker 3: people who have allegedly done really bad things. And I 1001 00:49:28,007 --> 00:49:31,367 Speaker 3: think that what's most disappointing is that we love the 1002 00:49:31,447 --> 00:49:39,527 Speaker 3: NDAs massive supporters incredible idea like pioneering, really support it, 1003 00:49:39,647 --> 00:49:43,487 Speaker 3: but whether it's been a result of underfunding or not 1004 00:49:43,487 --> 00:49:47,887 Speaker 3: structured correctly. There's no system and they inundated with complaints 1005 00:49:48,007 --> 00:49:51,567 Speaker 3: and you've got Australia's most vulnerable people being let down 1006 00:49:51,647 --> 00:49:55,967 Speaker 3: and it's just the most disillusioning experience. So that's been 1007 00:49:56,047 --> 00:50:01,567 Speaker 3: our worst of the week. My best, on a lighter note, 1008 00:50:02,487 --> 00:50:03,647 Speaker 3: was was it. 1009 00:50:03,607 --> 00:50:09,407 Speaker 1: Also me, Ah, you are adjacent. I'm trying to to 1010 00:50:09,447 --> 00:50:10,087 Speaker 1: go for two for two. 1011 00:50:10,207 --> 00:50:12,607 Speaker 3: It's also to do with good old Simon who had 1012 00:50:12,647 --> 00:50:16,287 Speaker 3: a brilliant Thursday night at Hamilton. Yes, so we went 1013 00:50:16,407 --> 00:50:20,087 Speaker 3: to Hamilton. So I was so excited rubbing shoulders with 1014 00:50:20,327 --> 00:50:21,807 Speaker 3: other musical enthusiasts. 1015 00:50:22,687 --> 00:50:24,887 Speaker 1: It's just it's so good. I missed it. 1016 00:50:24,887 --> 00:50:26,887 Speaker 3: It's so so good. I've been getting phone calls for 1017 00:50:26,927 --> 00:50:30,687 Speaker 3: two months from Simon about when Hamilton, like watching it 1018 00:50:30,727 --> 00:50:31,807 Speaker 3: on YouTube and listening to it. 1019 00:50:32,887 --> 00:50:33,807 Speaker 1: I sung at your wedding. 1020 00:50:33,927 --> 00:50:35,887 Speaker 3: It was sung at my wedding. And you know when 1021 00:50:36,247 --> 00:50:39,087 Speaker 3: when you've kind of not listened to something you love 1022 00:50:39,127 --> 00:50:40,927 Speaker 3: for a while and then you're like you get to 1023 00:50:41,007 --> 00:50:45,287 Speaker 3: rediscover it all over again. The cast is brilliant. It's 1024 00:50:45,767 --> 00:50:47,807 Speaker 3: at the moment, love love love. 1025 00:50:48,207 --> 00:50:52,047 Speaker 2: Childer she knows every word, rivaling Simon for the sing along. 1026 00:50:52,167 --> 00:50:54,007 Speaker 1: We bumped into quite a few out louders. 1027 00:50:54,167 --> 00:50:57,407 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, thank you out louders for being with 1028 00:50:57,527 --> 00:51:03,327 Speaker 2: us to our Friday show was light, We've got live. 1029 00:51:04,007 --> 00:51:06,847 Speaker 2: We hope you held on with us. 1030 00:51:06,887 --> 00:51:08,727 Speaker 1: I don't know what I want to know. 1031 00:51:09,247 --> 00:51:10,887 Speaker 2: I enjoyed it and then I was like, nah, I 1032 00:51:10,927 --> 00:51:11,287 Speaker 2: don't think. 1033 00:51:11,287 --> 00:51:13,407 Speaker 3: I think I'm just not the caring thing. I would 1034 00:51:13,407 --> 00:51:16,047 Speaker 3: love out louders who are care is or have had 1035 00:51:16,087 --> 00:51:18,247 Speaker 3: that experience. I'd just love to know how you feel 1036 00:51:18,247 --> 00:51:20,327 Speaker 3: about it, like the complexity of the feeling about it, 1037 00:51:20,367 --> 00:51:22,007 Speaker 3: and if you do feel like it's degraded or it's 1038 00:51:22,007 --> 00:51:24,327 Speaker 3: a privilege, or please jump in to the mum mea 1039 00:51:24,367 --> 00:51:26,687 Speaker 3: out Louders Facebook group and chat to us. We love 1040 00:51:26,807 --> 00:51:27,767 Speaker 3: to engage. 1041 00:51:27,967 --> 00:51:30,927 Speaker 2: That's all We've got time for a very big thank 1042 00:51:30,967 --> 00:51:33,207 Speaker 2: you to all of you and to our amazing team 1043 00:51:33,247 --> 00:51:35,687 Speaker 2: who help us produce this show. The show is produced 1044 00:51:35,727 --> 00:51:38,967 Speaker 2: by Emmaline Gazillis. There's been audio production from Leah Porge's 1045 00:51:39,127 --> 00:51:41,047 Speaker 2: We're going to see you back here on Monday. 1046 00:51:41,527 --> 00:51:42,967 Speaker 1: See that Bye bye. 1047 00:51:44,127 --> 00:51:44,927 Speaker 2: Shout out to. 1048 00:51:44,927 --> 00:51:48,127 Speaker 1: Any Muma Mia subscribers listening if you love the show 1049 00:51:48,407 --> 00:51:50,927 Speaker 1: and want to support us as well. Subscribing to mum 1050 00:51:50,967 --> 00:51:52,967 Speaker 1: and Miha is the very best way to do so. 1051 00:51:53,087 --> 00:51:55,047 Speaker 1: There is a link in the episode description