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Speaker 1: There are a few very famous Australian criminals Ned Kelly,

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Speaker 1: Ronald Ryan, the last man to be hanged in Australia,

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Speaker 1: chop A Red and Ivan Malatt, to name a few,

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Speaker 1: but none are more famous for their escape attempts than

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Speaker 1: John Killick. Killick was a bank robber, you know the

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Speaker 1: ones you see portrayed in movies, the stick him up

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Speaker 1: and hand us all the money from the drawer kind

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Speaker 1: of bank robber. He even holds the record as Australia's

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Speaker 1: first decimal currency bank robber, hitting the A and Z

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Speaker 1: ending Cabramatta on the very day of the changeover from

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Speaker 1: pounds and shillings turned to dollars and cents. He was

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Speaker 1: also the kind to escape custody on remind for burglary.

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Speaker 1: A young John Killick ran while at a court appearance,

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Speaker 1: able to keep that freedom for one full hour before

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Speaker 1: he was found and taken back to Bathurst Jail. He

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Speaker 1: ended up in Penridge, where, again on a court appearance,

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Speaker 1: he tried to flee. That one would land him in

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Speaker 1: the notorious h division where violence was an everyday occurrence,

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Speaker 1: a block that Chopper Reid would one day oversee. When

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Speaker 1: he was finally released He married Gloria and had a

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Speaker 1: child together, but a run in with a notorious New

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Speaker 1: South Wales police officer, one that we in recent years

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Speaker 1: were introduced to through the Underbelly TV series Roger Rogerson,

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Speaker 1: he got sent back inside. Killick would take up with

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Speaker 1: another woman who would bust him out of the notorious

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Speaker 1: Bogo Road jail in Queensland in the mid eighties after

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Speaker 1: getting a firearm to him while on a hospital visit.

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Speaker 1: But it was on March twenty fifth, nineteen ninety nine

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Speaker 1: that the name John Killick would seal itself into Australian

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Speaker 1: criminal legend. I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations,

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Speaker 1: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking

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Speaker 1: to the people who know the most about them. John

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Speaker 1: Killick is a reformed man these days. Now in his

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Speaker 1: early eighties, he's been out of prison since twenty fifteen

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Speaker 1: after being released on parole, spending more than thirty years

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Speaker 1: of his life incarcerated. He's taken full responsibility for not

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Speaker 1: just his crimes, but how those crimes impacted those who

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Speaker 1: got caught up in them, like the bank tellers, for example,

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Speaker 1: who are at the other end of his grab for cash.

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Speaker 1: He now spends his time helping others, but no matter

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Speaker 1: where he goes or what he does, people still ask

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Speaker 1: him about that day in nineteen ninety nine when his

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Speaker 1: Russian girlfriend hijacked a helicopter and landed it on the

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Speaker 1: grounds of Silver Water Prison, with his face plastered on

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Speaker 1: the front pages of newspapers from coast to coast. Kilick

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Speaker 1: didn't know then that his dash across the Oval and

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Speaker 1: his flight to freedom would become folklore, the subject of books,

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Speaker 1: and even the inspiration for a song. John Killick and

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Speaker 1: author Mark Dappan, who works closely with John, joins us Now. Mark, John,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us live in the

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Speaker 1: studio today. We really appreciate you both coming in and

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Speaker 1: having a chat to us about I mean, we have

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Speaker 1: many chapters to get through, but I would really like

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Speaker 1: to first John, ask you how people react to you

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five now compared to like back in

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Speaker 1: the nineties when all this was kind of headline news.

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Speaker 1: How do people react to you now today in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five.

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Speaker 2: See Claire. Look, most people are great, they really are.

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Speaker 2: The police, particularly that never when I see the police,

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Speaker 2: and particularly the young ones very point. They know who

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Speaker 2: I am around where I work. But I would say

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Speaker 2: that it doesn't matter where you go, where you talk,

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Speaker 2: what you do, there's always going to be yeah, and

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Speaker 2: this human nature, they will always be a minority. It's

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Speaker 2: more minority with me, but the people that are really

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Speaker 2: against me. And I did a talk at Chatwood recently.

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Speaker 2: There was three guys. I don't know if you noticed them,

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Speaker 2: but there were three guys there Andy Moon, you know,

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Speaker 2: and they were very much handy.

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Speaker 1: Moon when you said they're auntie you what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Like are they well?

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Speaker 2: They they don't buy And I can't understand is they

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Speaker 2: don't buy that someone my background can turn around, you know.

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Speaker 2: They they think it's sort of act and it isn't.

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Speaker 2: It isn't. And I look, I was, I was a

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Speaker 2: good kid on the saying it for nothing. I was

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Speaker 2: a good kid right up until I seven, never thought

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Speaker 2: about any crime or anything. It was book. My mother

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Speaker 2: committed suicide on a seven Owen. We come from a

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Speaker 2: pretty bad background. Father was abuse, you've drunk, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And I left the very day she died. Elet and

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Speaker 2: I was in trouble sooner, I think getting mixed up

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Speaker 2: with kids a bit older man. I was in jile

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Speaker 2: at seven a at Long Bay in January nineteen sixty

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Speaker 2: and those things turn around. You change your ethics, your

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Speaker 2: code of ethics. You learn a new cade of etics

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Speaker 2: to survive. And I did that, and I was pretty

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Speaker 2: dirty on the world about what had happened to my mother.

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Speaker 1: And I blamed a banks to the ground.

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Speaker 2: Well it was my father what happened, but also I

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Speaker 2: blawed the banks because they had full clothes on our

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Speaker 2: house and we finished up with the worst house in

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Speaker 2: the suburb. And I was shaved of my know my

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Speaker 2: mother was, and I think that contributed a bit to

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Speaker 2: the way she went. In those days, people didn't get

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Speaker 2: diagnosed with depression and all that. And the nights she died,

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Speaker 2: she died because we didn't have a phone, we didn't

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Speaker 2: have a car. I got my pushbike. She'd fell out

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Speaker 2: of bed and I rushed around to phone the first

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Speaker 2: phone and damaged by vandals, had to get to another one.

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Speaker 2: In those days, you putting a penny and to get

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Speaker 2: to ring up and by the time I got to

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Speaker 2: a doctor that the doctor wouldn't come because we had

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Speaker 2: the money. By the time we got another doctor. It

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Speaker 2: was probably twenty five minutes before somebody got there. And

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Speaker 2: whereas if we'd had a car, I could have taken

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Speaker 2: a straight hospital. And you look back at as you

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Speaker 2: never forget those things. Yeah, they make and particularly when

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Speaker 2: you're seven owned, they make a huge impact on it.

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Speaker 2: But I'm also a great believer for what I've learned

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Speaker 2: and come through the system. I've met some of the

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Speaker 2: hardest people you'll ever meet, assistan I murders, bad murders,

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Speaker 2: bad criminals, people that are people like my lad. All

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Speaker 2: these peoples, and a lot of them had bad backgrounds

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Speaker 2: as well. But getting back, I know I turn you

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Speaker 2: off the track. But getting back some people will accept me,

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Speaker 2: most people except me. There will always be something that won't.

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Speaker 2: And I accept that. I know who I am, I

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Speaker 2: know I'm doing good things, so I feel good about

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Speaker 2: myself and I feel that I've got a great way

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Speaker 2: to sending records straight.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about like you've kind of

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Speaker 1: given me an idea of where your head was out

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Speaker 1: as a seventeen year old kid, But can you explain

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Speaker 1: what that first bank robbery was like? Like what was

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Speaker 1: it like to walk into a place and know that

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Speaker 1: you were going to threaten people for money because you

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Speaker 1: go from being a good kid to meeting some dodgy

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Speaker 1: characters who've kind of changed who you are a little bit,

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Speaker 1: and you're mad at the system. Do you put that

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Speaker 1: into that? Is like, that's what the motivation is.

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Speaker 2: I had the if it's a school or it's just

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Speaker 2: a mind set that I was already going to. I

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Speaker 2: was aldly going on another mindset and convinced myself that

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Speaker 2: it was me against the banks.

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Speaker 1: So he kind of disassociated from the actual like the

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Speaker 1: people in there is more.

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Speaker 2: But what I how I used to justify it was

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Speaker 2: that I would I would think that what happened I

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Speaker 2: was in love with a girl. You wouldn't believe it.

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Speaker 2: Mark knows the story.

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Speaker 1: Well, Mark is laughing because it feels like being in

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Speaker 1: love with the girl has gotten into a hill of

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Speaker 1: a lot of trouble.

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Speaker 2: His stories beginning that same way.

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Speaker 3: Every Well, I was in love with this.

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Speaker 2: Girl, I'm still in touch with this girl, and that

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Speaker 2: she's seventy eight now and she's over in California, and

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Speaker 2: I was still talking to me. She's she's sick actually,

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Speaker 2: and well I call her quite a bit. But they

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Speaker 2: went to America wouldn't believe it. You know. It's like

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Speaker 2: that Bogart line of all the bloddy bars. He could

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Speaker 2: have gone. And the one girl I fell in love

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Speaker 2: with was going was an American, was going to America.

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Speaker 2: And when I tried to get over there, we were

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Speaker 2: pretty serious trying to go that they stopped me going

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Speaker 2: over there because I had just mind a criminal record,

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Speaker 2: and then they just and in the end, I actually

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Speaker 2: robbed the bank because what happened I was doing bringing

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Speaker 2: his stamp shops coin shops, got arrested, got bailed, and

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Speaker 2: our guys living with him and his wife, they put

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Speaker 2: up their property. That way war for me. And he

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Speaker 2: said to me, John, I didn't expect to get by,

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Speaker 2: And he said, John, he said, don't run out on

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Speaker 2: me or I lose faith in human nature. That's true story.

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Speaker 2: And what I did, I thought, I'm not sticking around.

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Speaker 2: I'm still going to go and I'm still going to

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Speaker 2: get to America. But I've got to fix him up.

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Speaker 2: And the only way I fixed him up was rober Bank.

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Speaker 2: And that's true. So I was justifying that I've got

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Speaker 2: to go in and rob this bank to get the

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Speaker 2: money to pay him, and I did it, and I

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Speaker 2: paid him, gave him money. I gave him money to

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Speaker 2: his daughter, actually, and then I was on the run

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Speaker 2: from there. And the second bank that I did was

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Speaker 2: on c Day nine and sixty six.

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Speaker 1: It's when we changed to decimal currency, and you committed

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Speaker 1: the first bank of the bank that I was giving

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Speaker 1: out decimal.

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Speaker 2: Currency camera matter zed. I thought there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of money there. And not only that, I got chased

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Speaker 2: by a bank manager had a gun and a butcher.

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Speaker 2: Because I took the butcher's money to time. He was

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Speaker 2: upset and I said, look, you were in shored I

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Speaker 2: knew he was insured, but he was very angry about it,

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Speaker 2: and they came after me and they can't, they commentated,

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Speaker 2: can't come out. Feels like I got got manager to

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Speaker 2: luded them. So I didn't think I'm being honest. I

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Speaker 2: thought about it years ago, years later, when I probably

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Speaker 2: about fifteen years ago, I started working with psychs before

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Speaker 2: I got out of jail, and they got it through

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Speaker 2: to me because I never accepted it was always me

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Speaker 2: against the banks. So I said, John, it's not you

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Speaker 2: against the banks, it's you against the people in the banks.

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Speaker 2: And you know it got driven Horne I had to

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Speaker 2: accept it that because guys are saying, I, you know,

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Speaker 2: guys rob banks, I love banks to get on a

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Speaker 2: high on all this or that never happened to me.

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Speaker 2: I was always frightened before I went in a bank.

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Speaker 2: I used to think about the night before. I think

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Speaker 2: this could be it. I could be dead because I

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Speaker 2: don't carry guns now, but I know when I first

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Speaker 2: started doing it, they used to carry weapons, and the

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Speaker 2: bank tailers used to have guns and they were trailers. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's just what I'm saying. Down to Melbourne, I did

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Speaker 2: one down there. After I did those twos Sydney, I

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Speaker 2: went to Marbourne and I got actually chased by the banks.

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Speaker 2: Fire shots at me, hit the back of the cart,

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Speaker 2: and I'd already been shot at before my police officer

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Speaker 2: when I was when I was and I escaped from

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Speaker 2: Badforst Courthouse and pushed the cops.

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Speaker 1: This is the thing I think that no people know

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Speaker 1: because you're so famous for one particular escapeing like you've

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Speaker 1: escaped like several times.

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Speaker 2: That one they shot them in and I thought I

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Speaker 2: was smarter than I was hitting a chip pen and

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Speaker 2: an old lady saw me get in a chick pen

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Speaker 2: right and they gave it. They used made a noise

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Speaker 2: because they didn't have a clue, and so that that

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Speaker 2: got me coordinate the truck pemper. He fired shots on

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Speaker 2: me and missed, and then they fired shots to me

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Speaker 2: down and down in Melbourne and missed. So I always

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Speaker 2: though it looking back all the times I've burned shot

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Speaker 2: at because we got shots three lines in the helicopter,

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Speaker 2: so probably eight or nine times, and I've all missed.

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Speaker 2: And I think, I really do think it's faint that

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Speaker 2: I meant to be here to get the story out,

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Speaker 2: to get it across the pool. You don't rob banks

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Speaker 2: because I put Gloria, she's eighty four now, and put

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Speaker 2: her in a bank. If she was in somebody idiot

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Speaker 2: come running in there. Y're not out as it's a bank,

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Speaker 2: Robbie waving a weapon and a massk she could have

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Speaker 2: a heart attack. And this man got across to me. Look,

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Speaker 2: you know, And I finally understood. While we get large

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Speaker 2: sentences for arm robberie, because we can never understand why

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Speaker 2: a murderer, like some murders, bad murders done one third

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Speaker 2: of a time I've done someone the pedophiles even less

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Speaker 2: than that. Bad pedophiles that have ruined many lives. So

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Speaker 2: we can never understand bank robbers and roberts why we

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Speaker 2: got so long. But I do accept that. I try

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Speaker 2: and get this across the young people now that I

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Speaker 2: do talk to that. Look, when you go in there,

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Speaker 2: there's ten people in there, ad them. Probably get over it. Okay,

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Speaker 2: there could be two people. You could have ruined their lives,

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Speaker 2: you know, they could have trum We could even ruin

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Speaker 2: their marriage, could ruin everything. So you've got to accept that.

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Speaker 2: I've got a lot of victims, and I do accept that.

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Speaker 2: And I've tried to give back a hell of a lot.

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Speaker 2: And I really have tried to give a hell of

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Speaker 2: a lot back in the last eleven years. Most of

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Speaker 2: the money I've made from books, and this is true,

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Speaker 2: I've given it alone.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like you'll be back level with

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Speaker 1: the crime as opposed to the time you're putting back

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Speaker 1: into it now.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like I've broken even.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you ever feel like you break even?

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Speaker 2: I think I'll just about even. I want to finish

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Speaker 2: your head. I think I've broken about even there, because

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Speaker 2: you can't just want to try and get across POVI

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Speaker 2: once you do something, you can't take it back. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can't take it back. And we all do things.

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Speaker 2: I don't care who the who we are. We all

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Speaker 2: do things that we shouldn't do because we're human beings

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Speaker 2: and we look back. I shouldn't have done that, you know,

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Speaker 2: And it might be a small thing, it might be amazing,

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Speaker 2: but that thing can change lives. Yeah, and I saw

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Speaker 2: a movie years ago. It was called Sliding Doors. It

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Speaker 2: was really good because you probably might have sewn it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you go through that door and it changed the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: I often think of that if I had done this

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Speaker 2: instead of that, you maybe things would have been different.

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Speaker 2: But my biggest regret to regrets that I've got is

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Speaker 2: one that I never had a mentor, because you know,

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Speaker 2: I talked to young guys and try and get across

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Speaker 2: to them, and if I had someone like me to

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Speaker 2: talk to it may be that I might have turned

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Speaker 2: it around. But the other thing is that I was

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Speaker 2: a gambler. So you know, people have said to me

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Speaker 2: John Knew could have been a lawyer, because I got

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Speaker 2: pretty good at law. He could have done this. But

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't mean any good at anything while was in

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Speaker 2: gambled because gamble was worse than drug addics.

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Speaker 1: Okay, before we get to the last escape, can we

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Speaker 1: talk about the other one in the eighties?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what happened there? I've got it. Before we talk

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Speaker 2: about it, we've got it. We've got to get to

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Speaker 2: where Roger Rogerson set me up, because really it's my life,

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Speaker 2: just change over Roger Rogerson.

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Speaker 1: Can we disestablish who Roger Rogerson here? Because we've for

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Speaker 1: the majority of us, we learned about him through Underbelly,

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Speaker 1: about him being a bit of a crooked cop. But

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Speaker 1: like him for you, he's a real life human being

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Speaker 1: who intercepted in your life. So what was his relationship

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Speaker 1: like with you?

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Speaker 2: I never met him. I never met him. And so

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Speaker 2: the thing is that I did all that time, you know,

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Speaker 2: for those two banks in Sydney and down in Melbourne,

300
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Speaker 2: and I was down in Melbourne, I was I got

301
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Speaker 2: on a really bad escape down there twice, two escapes,

302
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Speaker 2: one from from Hawthorne and went to hate Sish and

303
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,760
Speaker 2: where their bash is stupid down there, and then had

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Speaker 2: an overgoing sixty eight. And honestly that we've spoken about that.

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Speaker 2: They talk about that when I do tours down there,

306
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Speaker 2: they talk about that escape in sixty eight because what

307
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,640
Speaker 2: happened is that I have a power to prison. Officer

308
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,520
Speaker 2: took his gun and got barricaded up in ear Division

309
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Speaker 2: because I couldn't get out because Ryan and Walker escape,

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Speaker 2: they increased the security and didn't have to and they

311
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Speaker 2: brought in Aidaen karlads here. It's all the news. Ada

312
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Speaker 2: and Carlos what to him, shot out all the lights

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Speaker 2: and the siege was for about five or six hours.

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Speaker 2: And how I survived, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Did they shoot at you?

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Speaker 2: They shot the lights out.

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Speaker 1: Right, but they shoot that to you.

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Speaker 2: No, I didn't shoot it. Well. They finally shot at

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Speaker 2: me and they probably would have got me picked. After

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Speaker 2: I surrounded, I came down. I saw, you know, it

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Speaker 2: was dark, but I assume coming with a light and

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Speaker 2: they lose trained marksmen all that, and I thought, he's

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Speaker 2: only going to squeeze that trie and it you blame

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Speaker 2: me into oblivion, and I was very like, if you wouldn't,

325
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 2: if it happened again, you'd be dead. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I mean about fate. So I spent

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Speaker 2: four years in Hver that and that's where they bashed

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Speaker 2: people and we had rights down there, had Royal Commission

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Speaker 2: to it, and I was one of the people that

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Speaker 2: actually spoke at the Royal Commission and they headlined it

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Speaker 2: and I said, manmanity a man, and they grabbed hold

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Speaker 2: of it. But now I go down there and do

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Speaker 2: tours down there and point out what what happened, and

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Speaker 2: I lived. I was in the penthouse when I first

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00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 2: went down here because Para I wouldn't let me go

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Speaker 2: in to finish all my prom and I'm twenty three

337
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Speaker 2: years and I had to do all that before I

338
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Speaker 2: let me go. But when I went down there, so

339
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,240
Speaker 2: many prison of society only ones were there. And the

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Speaker 2: guy at time, they didn't know that I knew him.

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Speaker 2: I said, look it, look at him. He thinks he's

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Speaker 2: a movie He come down here, he's living in the

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Speaker 2: penh house. He's a millionaire. You know, I just just

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00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 2: appeared that way and I woked. So it's saying I'm

345
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 2: stilling your bases. So I sort of got bag on it.

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Speaker 2: You know. That was just my way hitting back of it,

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Speaker 2: because you know, we got some bad bashions down there,

348
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Speaker 2: and it was really bad. But I want to see

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Speaker 2: him when they reigned. It's a part of history. When

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Speaker 2: they hang Ronald Ryan.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with John Killick, the bank robber who became

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Speaker 1: a household name in the nineties when his girlfriend Lucy

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Speaker 1: dad Co busted him out of jail in a hijacked helicopter.

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Speaker 1: Up next, John tells us about his very first escape

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Speaker 1: from prison after being put there after a life of

357
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Speaker 1: robbing banks. Can we talk about that escape though in

358
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Speaker 1: the eighties, because again we laughed before about you know,

359
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Speaker 1: you being involved in women with women who get you

360
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 1: into trouble, but like women have played a pretty big

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Speaker 1: role in your escapes over the years.

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Speaker 2: Well that's true. Well, you know I even had stuff

363
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,560
Speaker 2: down in Melbourne that it was because of cafin I

364
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 2: wanted to try and get back to Maria, and so

365
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 2: what happened is that I was going really well, I

366
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Speaker 2: got married, had a son. Yeah, I'm married, Gy this

367
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Speaker 2: is the lady that I was taught about going to

368
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Speaker 2: the bank, and I'm still a Glorio. Still we're not

369
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 2: married anymore, but we're still great friends. And we've got

370
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Speaker 2: a son over in China who's nearly fifty years old.

371
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Speaker 2: He's been over there twenty five years. He's going great,

372
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Speaker 2: speaks five languages, he's pretty good. Yeah. So what happened

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00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 2: is I met a go out of the race. It's

374
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,240
Speaker 2: just quickly things were going bad. I lost that day.

375
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Speaker 2: He put it on me and wanted to rob a bank.

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Speaker 1: Here was and given would just come to you and say,

377
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Speaker 1: I know you're a bank rober. Do you want to

378
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: rob a bank?

379
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well he knew me in jails. No, this is

380
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,879
Speaker 2: very rare for something this happens. This is what I mean.

381
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Speaker 2: Sometimes I really believe fate takes in my life. And

382
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,720
Speaker 2: so I said, look, okay, I went along with it

383
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Speaker 2: because I knew. We lived in Adelaide for a couple

384
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 2: of years, and I saw his bank and I always

385
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,000
Speaker 2: saw it, and I thought, it's just a huge amount

386
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 2: of money at the back every Friday afternoon for some

387
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: reason had all this money. Then I thought, it's a bank,

388
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,119
Speaker 2: and you know a couple of guys could take this.

389
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,360
Speaker 2: So I told him we planned it and another guy,

390
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,879
Speaker 2: because I didn't have a gun at those stage, I

391
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,440
Speaker 2: had a lot of jobs, shops, the whole works, and

392
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 2: so we bought another guy into it. He had a gun.

393
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: But what happened when I went around a few days

394
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 2: before the robbery was in South Australia, I saw him

395
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,920
Speaker 2: fighting with his wife in the kitchen and I saw

396
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 2: noodles and white powdered it. Now, I didn't know much

397
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 2: about drugs. I went in to see the baby. The

398
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,399
Speaker 2: baby was crying, there was no food, and I just

399
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 2: realized I've burned tired by another guy. Drugs were just

400
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 2: starting now. John never trusts to junkie and this guy

401
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 2: burn a jounk himself. He said, I'm telling you so

402
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,439
Speaker 2: I called it off. And it's true I called it off.

403
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 2: It's pretty obvious. History shows that I called it off.

404
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 2: So he tried to him out of it, but they

405
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 2: went ahead. So substituted his wife as the driver of

406
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 2: the car. The other two guys did the bank. The

407
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 2: bank right, but they didn't know who each other were

408
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 2: because I'd introduced him. They're under false names. So he

409
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,679
Speaker 2: got caught with his wife driving back because somebody had

410
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 2: got the number of the of the car. The other

411
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 2: guy got away on a plane. He got away. Now

412
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,480
Speaker 2: when they got him, they knew it as a third party.

413
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 2: They said who was it? He made up a name,

414
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 2: but that didn't work. And I've seen all the transcripts

415
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 2: and that and all the stuff. So then he said,

416
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 2: John Kellick. So they come to me and grabbed me,

417
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 2: my wife and my baby and Hulers now harlest On

418
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 2: and said we know you did his bank and I said, no,

419
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 2: I didn't do it. I didn't know it. I wasn't

420
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 2: going to say yeah, look I planned got to put

421
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: them out. Yeah, so I didn't know. Now it's called

422
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 2: the Perli other By case. Everybody Insyny had see me.

423
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 2: They all see me. The lady who is buy a

424
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 2: sports and not that's aid racing pamies. She saw me,

425
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: a lady character had to shop for thirty years. They're

426
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: looking a life where anyway, I had all these witnesses

427
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: who saw me, but they still they sat there and

428
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 2: they used to do it the police type up statement.

429
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 2: They all typed up a statement where I was supposed

430
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 2: to confess. They all signed it. I didn't. Judge went

431
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 2: along and held me there. They extra oedh me to

432
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 2: New to South Australia. The judge realized that they were

433
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 2: false through the statements out, but then they called Ryer Rotison.

434
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 2: I never meant him and he walked in that courtroom,

435
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 2: and I still never forget it, and I was pretty

436
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 2: sure I was going to walk at this stage. They

437
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 2: didn't have any evidence at all. And he looked. I said,

438
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 2: good day, Johnny. And I saw it during and they

439
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: all looked at each other night. So yeah, he had

440
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,479
Speaker 2: this persona that I just had a way about him.

441
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: He got up and he smoothed to him and he

442
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 2: just said, look, John Tommy that he'd robbed the bank

443
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: and showed him an air ticket. He said, that's the

444
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 2: one that I did, etcetera, etcetera. And I mean, we

445
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: couldn't mind A lawyer just couldn't get it across the

446
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 2: jury that when I'm sparsed to have said this, I'm

447
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 2: at court during a lunch break, fighting fighting the extradition,

448
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: hearing fighting the extradition here and saying I didn't do it.

449
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 2: And yet during a lunch break, I'm telling a cop

450
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 2: that looked, you know, I did it. That's the hand ticket.

451
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: So they found me going and what happened is that

452
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 2: I wanted but it took me three and a half years,

453
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 2: and I wanted a High Court of Australia because you

454
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 2: just haven't got the money to get there, and I

455
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: won that and got convictions of Christ. But in the

456
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 2: meantime a lady used to come out of visit because

457
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 2: it was hard for Glory to get over. She only

458
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 2: got over a few times a year to see me.

459
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 2: And I met this girl who was coming out the daughter,

460
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: and when I got out, I stayed there at first night.

461
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 2: I got out because I won the high Quarter pill

462
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 2: and I had to go the next day and go home.

463
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 2: And she asked me why I shared the boyfriends, lying Wintigan,

464
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 2: I gave her a bit of advice about what to

465
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: do next. Thing she's turned up on our doorstep, you know,

466
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 2: and send h and just one thing led on another

467
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 2: and finished up. I was bitter, really better. I wasn't

468
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 2: getting on well with Gloria because I was just like

469
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: a time bomb. I've done this time that I shouldn't

470
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: have done. And I was absolutely outraged. You know, three

471
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: and a half years my marriage was half my stuff.

472
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: And finished up getting involved with the girl. And so

473
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: when Gloria found out, she kicked me out and said

474
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: that's it, it's all over. So we went off and

475
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 2: it went from there. I started hitting banks everywhere. I said,

476
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: you just want to get me for a bank that

477
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,199
Speaker 2: I didn't do comp this really I was.

478
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 1: And revenge bank, Robert, Yeah, it really was. Do you

479
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: have and this is going to sound super weird, do

480
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: you have a favorite jail that you've been in, Because

481
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 1: you've been in.

482
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: So many, I just need to know the last one

483
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: I was in. Finally, it took fifty years. I got

484
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: the minimum security, minimum security. It's not necessarily the jail there,

485
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: and there was much better actually, but it took fifty years.

486
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 2: A hard work. But look the thing is that hate

487
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: Vista was terrible because it was ill long we had

488
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: rights there. Men would come there and that strip them

489
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 2: off and follow them with batons and kick them in,

490
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 2: bash them. And I knew the risk I was taken,

491
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: but I still took that risk, you know. And that's

492
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,479
Speaker 2: what I mean. When I work with the Pikes, they

493
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 2: they classed me and they knew me pretty well. They said,

494
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 2: you're the highest level of risk taker. They said, you know,

495
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: you'll just take that risk and risk your life, et cetera.

496
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: Do you think that's just who you have? Always been?

497
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: A risk taker?

498
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah it is. But I wouldn't I won't

499
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 2: do it now. I wouldn't do it look, I go

500
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: in the shops and I see people still because the

501
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 2: people they're cutting, the staff they're doing, these people are

502
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: sticking things. I see it all the time. I don't

503
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: know how to help. It's gone. I wouldn't happen when

504
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: I was, but I would not stir anything. Wouldn't matter

505
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 2: how it is, because if I get caught, undo all

506
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: the good work I've done the last eleven years.

507
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: Do you like, if you're caught doing something criminal now, like,

508
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: what impact does that have on because because you've served

509
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: so much time before, does that automatically put you back

510
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: in for long story?

511
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: Now, they probably let me go. Yeah right, yeah, they

512
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 2: probably let me go if it's something. But I can't

513
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: afford that, you know. See, I really believe that I've

514
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 2: got my integrity back. I've never really lost integrity even

515
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: when I was a criminal. I mean, I had a

516
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: code of ethics. And the thing is robbing banks. To me,

517
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: it was me against them, you know, And now I

518
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: accept that the damage that you do do to people,

519
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: you know, I've got true remorse about about that, and

520
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 2: that's why I try and give as much back as

521
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 2: I can and people some of my ruities are upset

522
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: they're saying, you've given all this money away, you know,

523
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: So I'm just trying to give something back. I'm trying

524
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: to save these kids. And some of them oping the

525
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 2: Philipo has got terrible eyes. Some of them got a

526
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: pair of shoes with some of as they can't even eat.

527
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: Now I've helped those kids. I've got one girl over

528
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: there cause me dad for ten years, and she got

529
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: up on Facebook. The first book was called Game of Flood.

530
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: She said to the best writer in the world, she

531
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: can't write her any I mean, it was just so lovely,

532
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: you know, It's just so lovely. And the thing is

533
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 2: that they come to me. And I've got peoples saying, look,

534
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: they're usual. They probably got a hundred other people, but

535
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 2: they haven't the ones I've got genuine, you know. And

536
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 2: I've watched some She had a baby, she got pregnant

537
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: and couldn't this way back, couldn't the hospital wouldn't give

538
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: her a cesaian. She need a caesarean, and they wouldn't

539
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: do it. And they just let them die. They said,

540
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 2: just walk up and down, you'll be okay, and they'll

541
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: come out. And so I couldn't afford I got some friends.

542
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 2: I said, look, you've got to help me with this girl.

543
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: And we got on a private hospital, a private doctor

544
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 2: and had the caesarian. The baby's beautiful baby there, you know.

545
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: But I mean so I just feel good about that.

546
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: I haven't got my own grandkids, so I look at it.

547
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 2: But otherased up, I don't send the money. I don't

548
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: make that sort of money there. But I just feel

549
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: good that I do it, and I'll still do it

550
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:13,239
Speaker 2: while I can.

551
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned before that you were in prison with

552
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: Ron Ryan when he was hung and what was that

553
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: like to be in prison with someone.

554
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 2: Who was well. I just think it was the reason

555
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: it's so famous, because I think there's still today and

556
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: Markel Chad had a huge controversy about the conviction, about

557
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: the actual execution because there's a very strong argument that

558
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: had a prison actually killed our one because what happened

559
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: they fired simultaneously riot so he didn't find it. They

560
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: got over the wall, grabbed the most screws were having

561
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: a Christmas party. They grabbed the gun of him, got down,

562
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: got out the back. But what happened is that Ryan

563
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: ran to the right up the front accomedy of the car.

564
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: The walk got corded and a prison officer was hitting

565
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: him something. And Ryan aimed the rifle and he was

566
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: on a flat surface, and the prison officer admitted he

567
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: was up top. He fired a shot. He admitted he

568
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: fired a shot at Walker. The prison officer filled to

569
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: the ground dead. Later on forensics testified at the trial.

570
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: I remember this perfectly, that that the bullet traveled it

571
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: down with angle and and Ryan was on a flat surf.

572
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: There was great controversy about and the bullet was never found,

573
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: but it was it was political. There are hundreds of

574
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: thousand of people protesting, signing petitions. It was all went

575
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: all around the world. Even the stuff cented a coin.

576
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: She turned it down. But the fact is because of Bolie,

577
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: who was a premier at the time.

578
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: Was Bowie he wanted too.

579
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and he well, he ripped up the that's

580
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: right there is. He ripped up the petition on the

581
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: steps apartment and said any person or any man, He said,

582
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: any man who kills one of my officers, police or

583
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: prison officer will hang. And that was it. His word

584
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: was gone at that time. And that was all male jury.

585
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: But they've written books about it, they've done movies about it.

586
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: We'll too. He's showed about it. There's still grounds. Well,

587
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: now I concerned coming again and I might jump on

588
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: this time. Whereas I would love to see that conviction

589
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: get a possumous pardon. I think there's a lot of

590
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: doubt in that decision. They've done it rather decisions over

591
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: in England place in America, and I think that this

592
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: one is not a safe verdict. And that's why it

593
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: became the last execution Australia because it was so controversial.

594
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: There is doubt, There is definitely doubt. And the thing

595
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: is the law states that if there's doubt, you can't

596
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: find a person only particularly we're going to take a life.

597
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: You know what was that like to be in prison

598
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: at that time with him and know that that was

599
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: blooming over his head and.

600
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: I couldn't actually be I was down on hates to

601
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: and we were all vertually solitary, but we could see him.

602
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 2: I could see he was in an open cell. There's

603
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: called observations. You've seen it, you've seen it. And he

604
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: sat there twenty four hours a day. He had three

605
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: different shifts of prison office. Each eight hours they'd sit outside,

606
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: so he had no privacy whatsoever. And it took him

607
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: down to the yard for an hour's ex sidse and

608
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: a shower. That's it. That's it, and right up until

609
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: they they hang him, and there were protuce outside the jail,

610
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: there were produce everywhere. And the thing is that the

611
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: guy that escaped women did kill a tear truck driver

612
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: in the toilet and said that the tear truck driver

613
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: try to arrest him and they had a gun and

614
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: it went off and he got off a manslaughter that

615
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: was pretty bad. And that added, I think to what

616
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: had happened, because we've got we've got two people died,

617
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: we've got a prison off died, and a toe And

618
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, I looked

619
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: at it trying three stores of toilook it from both

620
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: sides point of view, and where the authority is looking

621
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: at it and they won't admit it, but where they're

622
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: looking at it is that if the escape hadn't go

623
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: on ahead, two men would have stayed alive. So let's

624
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: make it three. We'll take you about too. That's what

625
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: I think it is. I think I don't give it

626
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: stuff where it was him or not. They're not going

627
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: to allow a prison officer to be mine for that.

628
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: And the irony of it is that the prison officer

629
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: killed himself two years later. So it's an incredible case.

630
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: It's an incredible case also.

631
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: Like for you back then committing crimes when Australia still

632
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: had a death penalty, Like, did that ever cross your

633
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: mind that that could be you?

634
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: We talk about hypothetical situations, but when it actually happens,

635
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: we don't really know how we're going to react, you know,

636
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: And you know I often think that how would I

637
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 2: react if I had have burned a guy that's going

638
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: to be in you see it in the movies, you're

639
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: going to be executing. You've got twenty four hours ago,

640
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: and you think, oh, I do this ort of know

641
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: how we could crumble? We could do. We just don't

642
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: know how until it happened. It and it actually happened

643
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: when we in this book, you know, before I went

644
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: in my attitude and I got chased bye off duty

645
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: comp he threw house bricks at me. Half house bricks

646
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: missed me? Why that much? And I could have shown

647
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: him that seemed to be a theme for you.

648
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: Things just miss you by cracks.

649
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: That's just faint. I mean, really, he was standing there

650
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: and he went back and more so I fired a

651
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: shot over his head and another time I find but

652
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: you know, I showed him later. I said, if I

653
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: was a killer, you'd be dead man because he would

654
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: have took my head off. Plus people saw it going on.

655
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: There was doe coming out of the bag. It was

656
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: just a nightmare. And that's the last bang I did.

657
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: And they're ring enough.

658
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: So the die that they put in with the money, Yeah, I.

659
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: Finally after all last years, fifty years, so I finally

660
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: come on sunk with a die bomb. And that's because

661
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: a team another team where Robin banks further further field

662
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: and so the whole lot. They warned them they should

663
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: look there's him, and I feeling that And like.

664
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: You I mentioned in your book when we talk about

665
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: Ronald Ryan, is that you met his family later on,

666
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: And I guess this is something we also don't understand,

667
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: is that the implications and the knock on effect of

668
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: him being their relative and being the last person to

669
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: be hanged here at Australia like that's had long lasting

670
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: impact on them, hasn't it.

671
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean John and I met his niece at

672
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 3: you Long and she told her a really kind of

673
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 3: heartrending story about growing up and not really knowing this uncle,

674
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 3: no understanding who thisish romantic figure was that kind of

675
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 3: once passed through her life. But she said after the hanging,

676
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 3: like they were basically persecuted by the other people in

677
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: the town. Not only was her mother devastated, there's some

678
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 3: horrible film of the mother's despair around the time of

679
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 3: the execution. You've never seen somebody look so drained, so

680
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 3: she looked beyond dead herself.

681
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: Ryan's mother, Well, I saw it, see, that's the thing

682
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: I was. I was here, he was across from me,

683
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: and I mentioned that in the book. It was the

684
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: saddest thing you ever seen. This little old lady sitting

685
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: on a chair. They wouldn't let her hug him, and

686
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 2: he had iron bars turning and she sit there talking

687
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: to her son, knowing they're going to put a rape

688
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: around his neck and the state is going to kill him.

689
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: The state's going to murder him. That's what they're going

690
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: to do. That's let's put it in a proper effect.

691
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: The state is going to murder or something, you know,

692
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 2: and you're not allowed to hug him because that's the rules.

693
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: And one prison officer gave him a banana, and the

694
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: other prison or something to tower gave him up and

695
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 2: they half shoot him and took half his wages. And

696
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: he told me later he became a governor Lanner. He

697
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 2: said that bluddy'snook forgiving a bloke banana. I mean that's

698
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 2: they had a chudren that you've got.

699
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: But at Geelong Jail when the niece spoke, there was

700
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: a virtual reality presentation where it had one at a

701
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 3: time people could go into this say you're.

702
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: Right about this in the book. I can't even imagine this.

703
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: Please explain, because I can't believe that this is actually

704
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: a real thing that you can do.

705
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not sure you can do it now.

706
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: So at the time, we're in Gelong jail with the niece,

707
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 3: and I think the headset wasn't charged initially. I may

708
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 3: be the only person that actually did it in the end,

709
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 3: but it put me in cell put virtual a headset.

710
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: So the virtual reality presentation puts you in Ryan's life,

711
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: so you're there in court when he gets.

712
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: Found guilty and missing it from his perspective.

713
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: So all you can see with the virtuality virtual reality is,

714
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 3: as I say, the world through the eyes of Ryan,

715
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 3: both immediately before and immediately after he is condemned. At

716
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: one stage, actually the point of view shifts to that

717
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 3: of a female condemned prisoner. But all the time you

718
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 3: are condemned, you know your face and death, you know

719
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 3: your facing execution, you know you're going to be hanged.

720
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: But you can't imagine. I couldn't imagine how real it

721
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 3: was until such time as they come towards me with

722
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 3: the nurse and suddenly, like the floor drops.

723
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: Out, so you actually experience the hanging itself. Can't even

724
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: imagine what that must have been like, What was it

725
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: like in the prison after that happened, because it was

726
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: such an amazing response to it from the community.

727
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely the data, he got a couple of approves, and

728
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 2: one of the seventy two hours before I hanged him,

729
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: he got to approve. The Krim did a statement stutory

730
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: decoration saying I overheard and the conversation between two reason

731
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: I was saying that someone else did it, and they

732
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: gave it a temporary stay. And I remember, and I

733
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: wrote in a book that I know this one in

734
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 2: Gamming for Love, I wrote I covered them all, but

735
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: I wrote in that the way I felt, and they're

736
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: all going out. Ranie's got to approve all three to

737
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: dials banging because we had the earphones. And I thought,

738
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: he's you know, I heard the news and it's not

739
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 2: going to work.

740
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: So there was hope for a second.

741
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 2: That mad yeah, and that's what I thought. I thought.

742
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 2: So I put myself in his shoes, and I thought,

743
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: he's already prepared himself for death. He's got about, you know,

744
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: forty hours before they going to hang m not even

745
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: that at that stage when it comes through, he had

746
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: maybe eight hours of life left, you know, And so

747
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: he's vertually dead in his own mind. He's prepared himself.

748
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden they're saying, look, you've

749
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 2: got to reprieve. But it was only for forty eight

750
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: hours or seventy two hours. And then I saw one

751
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: again and I thought, mention what they can do to

752
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: you psychologically, you know. And so by the time we

753
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: the night before and that, they dismissed that, and we

754
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: knew this time was going ahead. And the governor came

755
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: up and the whole jar was like a powder kick,

756
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: and he came up. His name was Grinley. I thought

757
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: he wasn't a bad government. He probably kept me alive

758
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: with that suedge that I had, because they really wanted

759
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: to come in and go. And so what happened is

760
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: he said to everybody went, he said, look, I've just

761
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: burned down a seet Ronnie. He said, he's asked me,

762
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: he's begging his aw to not play up, that he's

763
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 2: accepted his fate and he doesn't want anyone getting into trouble,

764
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: any trouble. And so that they did. But the next

765
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: morning I thought we'd all be locked in. They let

766
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: us out and they said, as I saw laws, they

767
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: used to walk around one at a time, they're walking

768
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: in trees and the tension you'd walk out, and they said,

769
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: we know work today. We knew because if I was

770
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: just the work and when I went on, So we

771
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: walked out and everyone went out to get their breakfast

772
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: and tension. You know, I've never been in a jar,

773
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: and I've burned in. Charles would have been right, they've

774
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: burned a jar with a tension. That jar would have

775
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: went up like a powder peg and people could have

776
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: been killed. I reckon if could have gone off if it.

777
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: Wasn't for Ronald Ryan putting that message out. But it

778
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: probably would have happen, could.

779
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 2: Happened, jam, So I think that's what saved it. And

780
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: then we all went to ourselves at eight o'clock and

781
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 2: he phones and said he's dead because they hang you

782
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: in exactly on a dot of eight o'clock. Somebody said

783
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: the pigeons flew off the roof when they did it.

784
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: That's the last execution in Australia.

785
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. After the break, John tells us about his big

786
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: escape from prison. Okay, we have to talk about it,

787
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: John Escape, the Big Escape. How many times do you reckon?

788
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: You've told this story? First of all, how did you

789
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: even meet Lucy? Where does she come into your life?

790
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 2: I met her at a party and her husband was

791
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 2: putting work on my girl, and that's how it started.

792
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: And I said, look at him, I said, She said, obviously, shaw,

793
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: I'm leaving him anyway. She didn't care, and so it's

794
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: just so I said, Well, we started talking about Russian literature,

795
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: and she got surprised. I knew a lot about it

796
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: because I read all these books and Jarling, so she

797
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: didn't some of them classic illustrated comics, you know, but

798
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 2: I knew I knew quite a bit about Russian licher,

799
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 2: and she was quite impressed with that. And so I said, look,

800
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: give me a phone number, and she gave me. She

801
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: didn't even remember it, but I'm really good with the figures,

802
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: and I remember the number. So I rang her up

803
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: a few times and come out and have a coffee.

804
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: You have a chat. I said, you're going to leave

805
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: him anyway, and then and she did. And it went

806
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: from there, you know. So it was pretty pretty heavy

807
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: relationship when it got gone, you know, But who was Lucy?

808
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 2: She was like a Russian library. She was a Russian library,

809
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: and she was.

810
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: Impressed with your Russian literature there. She was a librarian.

811
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we had a similar sense of humor. And

812
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: then she introduced me to her daughter and to see

813
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: if I got on well with her. And I remember

814
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: the daughter. The report card was he's nice, but he's old,

815
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: So you know I was. I wasn't that I was

816
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: sixteen years old on her. But the white hair, soone, yeah,

817
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: I've been prematurely gray. I was going gray when I

818
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: was twenty three, twenty four, and that night in Hats

819
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: put a lot more grain in that sage. But yeah,

820
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: it just went from there and we had a very

821
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 2: strong relationship.

822
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: And did she know about your past?

823
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Actually I gave her a magazine I'd

824
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 2: written about Jackie and I was called the Two of Us.

825
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: She has plant to seed the idea on how to

826
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 1: help you escape?

827
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: You about Jesse, Oh, she always said she wanted the

828
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: meat checking. I had them talking on the phone a

829
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: couple of times. Yeah. But the thing is Lucy, you know,

830
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: I realized people didn't don't know much about it. Even now,

831
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: she's a mystery woman. And I put some things in

832
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 2: the book about her early life. And she's just such

833
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: a cool customer. She was an apprentice jockey over there,

834
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: and they do long distance riding over there and in Russia,

835
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: and she loved horse. She's a good horse one. Even

836
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: now she's pretty good. And what happened She was out

837
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: at night in the snow with his favorite horse for hers,

838
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: and all these starving wolves came after him and they

839
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: chased her, and so many women would have panicked. She

840
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: kept cooling. She she's talking to a horse. Where can

841
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: and she knew if they slipped over there, they're gone.

842
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: And she just got ahead of him and jumped into

843
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: the stable, got him in the stable and calmed him down,

844
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: and then about now later she went out and caught

845
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: a bus bus home.

846
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: So how did you end up back in silver Water?

847
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: Then? Well, we were living a pretty good life actually,

848
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 2: but we're having all the custody battles over the daughter.

849
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: And in the end we got custody five days a week,

850
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 2: head casty on the weekends. And what happened. They're just

851
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: worse and worse than criminal court. It's just shocking the

852
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 2: stuff that happens. And he threw everything at me because

853
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 2: my background, he was a professor, said that I was

854
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 2: fretting him and all and I wasn't. And you know,

855
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: he said to her, bashing was what happened. When he

856
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: brought her home. He'd lost the glasses. So we brought

857
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 2: another pair of glasses, rushed and paid extra, and he

858
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: smash knocked the glass down on them and brought them

859
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: back and give them to Loosey. And I was upstairs

860
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: when we had to run handed or so I heard

861
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: yelling out and I ran down on the lawn and

862
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: he's singing out, help me, this is what he was doing.

863
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: Help me. And she's got him by the jumper, you know,

864
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: And when he saw me, he ran and he jumped

865
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: into the car, but the window was down and I

866
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 2: ran around there and I said, what happened. She showed

867
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: me he smashed his glass and the buddy glasses, so

868
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: you know, he's kicking at me, and I waked him.

869
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: I waked him and broke his glasses and then he

870
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: drove off and I said, he's going to get the cops. Sure,

871
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: And the cops hated him because he used to get

872
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: the girl to run off all the time. There's camera cops.

873
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: So when they came, they said what happened? And this

874
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: big guy used to play rugby because he said once

875
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: before when he come around, he said, I know what

876
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: I do. He wanted to take him around and bash him,

877
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: you know, because they knew what he was doing. He

878
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 2: was getting the guy run on and we were worried

879
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: that she was going to run off and get bloody,

880
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 2: kidnapped or something, you know. So anyway, I said, look,

881
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 2: he was kicking at me and he hit his head

882
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 2: on the thing and she backed it up, said I

883
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: let it go, but he tried to get me charge

884
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: of that. Anyway, there was a warrant and they come

885
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: and they said John, and they were apologetic at the

886
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: cop said, you know, we've got to get you in

887
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: the morning going to court, and you're probably going to

888
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: go to one to Queensland. And I said, from what

889
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: they said parole they said, and it's not something you

890
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: can fight and courted. Parole is jail. You know you're

891
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: just going you'll be going straight to jarn. So they

892
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: gave us a break. They should report at nine thirty

893
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: in the one that they knew when. So we took

894
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: off at it started from and you know we lost

895
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: the bond and lost it, lost everything, and so couldn't

896
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: get any work after us. So I started on banks

897
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: again and the second one I come and done on

898
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 2: second bank.

899
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: So you're in seal order. How do you coordinate and

900
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: escape like that when you are behind us?

901
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 2: All right? So I get right the rest for this

902
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: bank at Barrel. Now Lucy come out to see me

903
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: and they reckoned. She was actually there and got away

904
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: with the money because the money wasn't found, but they

905
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: had nothing on her. She was not involved, and there

906
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: was somebody got so picked up a bag and I said, well,

907
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: you either look at one of the cops or somebody

908
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: that's walking past, because I threw them on away, especially

909
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: when red dimes on it. So yeah, you know, it

910
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: was about twenty eight thousand. So what happened is she

911
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: come to see me and said, look, I'm going to

912
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: get you out. And I said no, I said, it's impossible.

913
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: This new General Electronics. I've looked at it, because first

914
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: thing I do is look at it. I said, this

915
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: is not an old jil, this is new. I said,

916
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 2: security is spot on. I said, we can't do it.

917
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: She said, Jackie got you out. I'm going to get

918
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 2: you out. I said, well how She said, well, you

919
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 2: know we'll go to court or the hospital. I said,

920
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 2: they know that, they know I to do that. And sure,

921
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: when I was going to court, they just put bloody

922
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: ankle races on me and have a special squad, special

923
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 2: train spot. So I just knew that there was no way.

924
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: So your reputation's gone to a point where they go,

925
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: this guy's going to do a runner if you can

926
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: find an open.

927
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and they were ready for it. I knew, and

928
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 2: I you know, she she had she had a little darringgin.

929
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: I'd given her two little shots and it's called an

930
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: assassin's gun, and I said, you point that in them,

931
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: they're just going to pull the gun out and shoot you.

932
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 2: And so I arranged to get her a machine gun

933
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: go and I paid this guy I didn't trust so

934
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: much anywhere. It turned out that done the foreign mechanism

935
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: had been cut in it. She went out to test

936
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: it and devotion and it didn't work. And the reason

937
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: that we got got that, it's because we decided we're

938
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: going to get out in helicopter.

939
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: Like, how do you have that conversation? Is in your

940
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: conversation not monitored while you're behind bars, do they not?

941
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: That's not your walk around big area. You ship down

942
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: some of them. I was definitely later when I went

943
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: to lift go. I know I was monitored some of

944
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: those visits, but at that stage they didn't suspect her,

945
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 2: you know. And the thing is, I know a journalist

946
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 2: come over from America. It was only there two minutes

947
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: and they come and took him out, and he got

948
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: upset about it. He said, I've burned some of the

949
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 2: toughest jars in America. I've interviewed some of the toughest criminals.

950
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: I'm sitting here for two minutes and you've got a

951
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: mule legally bug and I've come all this way. They

952
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 2: didn't care, and I knew it ended that that had

953
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: they had you to find hear what was saying.

954
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: So at this point they don't suspect her, so then

955
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: it's closely listening there.

956
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 2: I came, sure and smooth talk to him. We've got

957
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 2: a few extra visits, you know, because of the Russian accent,

958
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: bron you know, you know she that they didn't mind her,

959
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: you know, they liked it, so that that helped. But

960
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 2: the thing is, I said to Lucy, I said, I

961
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: really do think that it might be fate that we

962
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 2: get out of here, because I was going to court

963
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: and I was going to Queen in court out of

964
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 2: traffic things, and she came and on the visit and

965
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: she she had the bloody gun there and said I

966
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 2: can get this to her. I said, look, I said,

967
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: I knew how much goes. I said, we'll get killed.

968
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: I said, you slept at the moor. I said, where

969
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: are we going? She didn't have a cash come up

970
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 2: by train. I said, where are we going to go?

971
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: In Queen And I said, everybody knows we used to

972
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: live there. We used to live there. I said, we're

973
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: just not geared for it, and we we wouldn't have

974
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: got away, but it showed the goal she had in it.

975
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: But I said, Louise, we're going to get one chance.

976
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: And what I knew the chance was I'd sewn all

977
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 2: these holicopter's coming over. And it hit me that it

978
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: was fate because the only channel and Australias would have

979
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 2: worked was sad because when a helicopter comes over to prison,

980
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: they're alert, they're ready, they know every crim has been

981
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 2: dreaming about a farm for years and years.

982
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: Because other helicopters are around, than going to be less

983
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: focused on it.

984
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, focused on it. But Salt Water you had the

985
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: Olympics coming on. They were coming on in two thousand

986
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: and so people were coming over to have a look

987
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: at the Olympic village was right next to the prison,

988
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: and I thought of all the place like a BOI,

989
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: I'm in the right spot. I'm in the right spot.

990
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 1: That'spot right time. It sounds.

991
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: It's about time and succession. Fan is all about timing,

992
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: It's all about and this was time to affection. Really,

993
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 2: And I looked and I saw it there might be

994
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 2: chant them come over in an hour. And I looked

995
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 2: at it attitude of the prison. They didn't even look up.

996
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: Now any other jar. They're on a tower and a helicopter.

997
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: They're looking straight away and I thought it could be

998
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 2: done here. But then I thought, well, how are we

999
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 2: going to do it? We don't knowing about helicopters, you know,

1000
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 2: how are we going to do it? Is? And then

1001
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 2: guess what this one? Now? It's fate. There's a guy

1002
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:23,760
Speaker 2: con men got extra lot of from Africa to Scotland,

1003
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: from Scotland to New Zealand, from New Zealand to Sydney.

1004
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: They put him in sal water at the time that

1005
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: I was there, and they put him in my wing.

1006
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: There were twenty wings. They put him in my wing.

1007
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 2: And guess what? I got him in my song. So

1008
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm thinking about helicopter and the blue.

1009
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: I've got a helicopter pints sitting on my song. Now

1010
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: I started to think, like, am I being set up?

1011
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: Something idea in my head? They know what I'm doing.

1012
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: They give me a helicopsa the predecessor to our phones,

1013
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: listening to us. You have a thought in someone's.

1014
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 2: They give me a helicopter. Yeah, so he was a

1015
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 2: con man, and so he knew I was. And we

1016
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: started talking about helicoptersky. He said, I can get you

1017
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 2: out of here, and we agreed that he was going

1018
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 2: to get out and Lucy was going to help him,

1019
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: give him money and give him ten thousand. He was

1020
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: going to fly in. I jumped in the time and

1021
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 2: did fly out. It all happened in ten seconds, and

1022
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 2: he was able to get me overseas, so that that

1023
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: was what was all about. His name was Bennett. So

1024
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,399
Speaker 2: when I told Lucy, she was really excited. So I said, look,

1025
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 2: go and get her. Go and get her around. Because

1026
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 2: when I said I look, there's one way out. I said,

1027
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: you'll have to hijack a helicopter. And she said, and

1028
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 2: I'll never forget. She said, brilliant, Brillian's you know that

1029
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: was Lucy, you know, brilliant. Why didn't I think of that?

1030
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 2: You know because her father, they found out later, was

1031
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 2: the helicopter commander of helicopter flying but she never got

1032
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: anywhere near him. So we went ahead and did it.

1033
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 2: We planned it for a certain day and I had

1034
00:52:58,400 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: to when I had to get out of my saw.

1035
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: I got out of bit late. And the thing is

1036
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,800
Speaker 2: I had to be sure we're getting out, because what

1037
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: happens they classed Charles down. I only got out in

1038
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: the able twice twice a week for an hour a

1039
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 2: certain time, and if one of the prisoner I was sick,

1040
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 2: there's a fight on. And there can be a dozen reasons,

1041
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 2: particularly in jail. Why star shortage at all? Why you

1042
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 2: just don't come on the able, They don't know much reason.

1043
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: So I had to get to her and make sure

1044
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 2: that I'm on the able when she brings that chober in,

1045
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: because I knew she'd bring it in, and so I

1046
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 2: rang her. There was a big line on the phone

1047
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 2: and I said, look, guys, I got to ring a lawyer.

1048
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: It's dees wing to be fifteen seconds. So let me

1049
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: push in and I ran her and said look. She

1050
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 2: was waiting near the airport. I said, look, I'm just

1051
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 2: I'm just going out for a jog and I want

1052
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: to get back. She knew that was it, said okay,

1053
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 2: so she went ahead and she'd already booked the flight.

1054
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: But they were they were late. They didn't get the

1055
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 2: drop it. We ordered to order the bigger one and

1056
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 2: they apologize to this a small one. And so this

1057
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 2: was a scenic flight, wasn't it. It's like a sightseeing flight,

1058
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: she bo, Yeah, yeah, she you had to go over

1059
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 2: the and what happened? She got in and.

1060
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: She brought it as this machine gun did she have?

1061
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 2: It wasn't a real machine it was more and more

1062
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: of it's sort of sub sub but it didn't work,

1063
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: but it was about it's probably about that big. I

1064
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 2: threw it away because it didn't work. I threw it

1065
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: away and I'm not going to shoot you. Whe just

1066
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 2: sladers down. We still had a little one, but she used.

1067
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 1: It would have been intimidating for a woman to jump

1068
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 1: on that helicopter with the submachineer.

1069
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, no, she she had it on a bag

1070
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: and you know, she had a week on et cetera.

1071
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,919
Speaker 2: And so she pointed a gun at him. The first

1072
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 2: of all, she said, I once sad. Is that of prison?

1073
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 2: Because she said, yeah, near the site said I was

1074
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: at a prison, and he said, I think it's a

1075
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: minimum security prison. He didn't realize it makes security she's

1076
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 2: and so could we have a look and he saw

1077
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: I'm my space, but okay, And so when he got

1078
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 2: over there, and then she pulled the small gun and

1079
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 2: she said, uh, land landed down there in the oble

1080
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: and he looked and he said, and he said he's

1081
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 2: done a lot of interviews, and he said, I looked,

1082
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 2: and I thought he's she wouldn't have learned X SA

1083
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 2: S guy and a guy in New Guinea. A soldier

1084
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: tried to hijack him and he overpowered the soldier and

1085
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 2: they said to him later, you overpowered a sign of

1086
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 2: white and you got this librarian there. And when he said,

1087
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 2: I thought she was a Russian hit woman.

1088
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: An assassin's gun and a Russian.

1089
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 2: Accent in a Russian accent was so cool because she

1090
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: pulled the gun on him and she saw him hesitate

1091
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 2: and she just put it away and grabbed them some

1092
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 2: pretendant and when he saw that, he just lost. It's

1093
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 2: all over, and so I did. So they landed down there,

1094
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 2: but he deliberately instead of landing straight down like I saw.

1095
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: Mate said he wouldn't. And I got out to the

1096
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 2: able and took my mate with me, and I thought,

1097
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: if he jumps out of the chopper, I've got my

1098
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 2: own helicopter. Yeah. I said, I were dirty on that too,

1099
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: because I had a helicopter pilot jumping in with me.

1100
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 2: So when she he came around like that attracted attention

1101
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 2: to himself and the sweat was pouring off me because

1102
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: she was late. And I saw about eight times hellicotas

1103
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 2: come through and none of them were none of my mind.

1104
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: I got mates, sent a message over, I want to

1105
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 2: see him. One guy, very notorious criminal, sent Billy Bay

1106
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 2: you'd probably heard of him, his major drunk and sent

1107
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 2: him over. Said John, you've got to see him. So

1108
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 2: in the end I had to go over and he

1109
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: had two chotments for me, and I said.

1110
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: Now is not the time.

1111
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I said, look, I'll get him tomorrow. Yeah, you know,

1112
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: but that cost him two months because I had an

1113
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 2: all the camera and the two major criminals they thought

1114
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: he was involved, put him in Zeareu for two months

1115
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: over the chocolates, and there wasn't any already to do

1116
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,959
Speaker 2: about it. So and we only pulled this off because

1117
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: no one knew. I'm a great believe in it. If

1118
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 2: you can't keep a secret yourself, don't expect others creep it.

1119
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter your best friend, your wife, anybody. We

1120
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 2: all get that temptatione to say, listen, I'm going to

1121
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 2: tell you something. Don't tell anybody and expect them not

1122
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: to tell anybody. If you can't coop yourself. So I

1123
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 2: just never some things. I just never tell anybody an

1124
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: if I know something, that's it. And that's why it worked.

1125
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 2: So he took too long, so they got on and

1126
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 2: they realized what was happening. Well by the time he'd landed,

1127
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 2: he didn't land he have it off the ground, about

1128
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 2: seven or eight feet off the ground. I ran across

1129
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 2: and that the guy with me, Bennett, he said you barstard,

1130
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 2: and he said good luck. He realized what was going on,

1131
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 2: and I jumped on the thing. Well by then I

1132
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 2: come out of the out of a gym, very fit guy.

1133
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: I started running form. Now the squad to card had

1134
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 2: come down. Two of them jumped out with pistols and

1135
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 2: the other guys were starting to run. About five them.

1136
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 2: The fire them actually stood together and that they didn't

1137
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 2: split out. They should have said that. They're all looking,

1138
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 2: and they didn't. Weren't sure what they do, and when

1139
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: they saw me run, they all started to make a move.

1140
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,439
Speaker 2: But I ran it and I jumped on the side

1141
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 2: of the helicopter and then the chest that I got in,

1142
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 2: she handed me the machine gun and I went like

1143
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: that and is waved it like that, and all the

1144
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 2: crimson screws. They all died on the ground, dropped the ground.

1145
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 2: But the guy in the tower, but I got to

1146
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: the town. He shouldn't have. He got the rifle out

1147
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: and he's gone bang bang bang. But I heard it

1148
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 2: three times hit the sign and he missed the silical time,

1149
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 2: and I thought missed again. They missed bloody. I was

1150
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: so lucky because they could have got me, and they

1151
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 2: could have brought us down. And even a pilot said,

1152
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 2: we're very lucky. I think he got a fair bit

1153
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 2: of money out of it, to be honest with you,

1154
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: but look, it was bad. What we did was dangerous

1155
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: for risk lives. And so the guy under the Geneva Convention.

1156
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 2: I knew under the Geneva Convention, you cannot fire at

1157
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 2: a helicopter over in prison. That that is in the

1158
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: Geneva Convention. But they just ignored that. He got He

1159
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 2: got into trouble over it too. So we got it.

1160
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 2: We got away, and as soon as I got in,

1161
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 2: I said, look, you know, I'm a life and I

1162
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 2: want to get into his head that I was dangerous.

1163
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 2: I said, on the life, And I said, but you

1164
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 2: can make a lot of money out of sixty minutes.

1165
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 2: We can be dead. It's up to you. He said,

1166
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 2: don't worry. I made I'll get you out of here.

1167
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 2: He and I got on well. He said, he wasn't

1168
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 2: worried about me. She's worried about the Russian.

1169
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Russian assassin you brought with you.

1170
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Russian assassin. He was worried about her, and

1171
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: she wanted to take him with us, And I said, nah,

1172
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 2: I mean, we had a bit of an ament about that.

1173
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 2: But she felt that if they come after us, we

1174
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 2: had him his honest. But I thought of something going

1175
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 2: a slow and it's turn said, he want, how would

1176
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 2: you you might have got a chance to do it?

1177
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: Mike, Why do you think we're still so obsessed with

1178
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: John's story and this escape? Like what is it about

1179
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: this that we just can't seem to let go of?

1180
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: And we forced John to retail over and over and

1181
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: over again.

1182
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 3: I think the elements the helicopter obviously, as John said,

1183
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 3: it's always been a fantasy of prisoners to get out

1184
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 3: of jail in a helicopter. A few people try, it

1185
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 3: rarely really works. The Russian, obviously is helpful for the story.

1186
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 3: Librarian is brilliant, like it's as if she was the

1187
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 3: least likely person, whereas in fact, as John realized she

1188
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 3: was the most likely person. But you know, it's Tim

1189
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 3: the hijacked Tim Joyce. He still talks about it. I've

1190
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 3: spoke to him about it.

1191
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 2: Great like this.

1192
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 3: He's quite affectionate about his hijacket and he actually chouts

1193
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 3: it on his website. He's still he runs scenic tours

1194
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 3: in veg and he said, oh, I'm the guy that

1195
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 3: got hijack.

1196
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: It's an audacious plan. And the fact that it was,

1197
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you did get caught, but at the time

1198
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: it was successful, right.

1199
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 2: It just shouldn't work.

1200
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 1: It's a movie, It shouldn't work. You can find a

1201
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: link to John's updated book, The Last Escape and Mark

1202
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 1: Dappens's most recent book, The First Murderer I Ever Met

1203
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: in our show notes, And if you want to listen

1204
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: to Mark talk about his time in a strip club

1205
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: with Chopper Red, you can find that episode of True

1206
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: Crime Conversations in the Notes too. True Crime Conversations is

1207
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 1: hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by Our Senior

1208
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: producer Tarlie Blackman and Our Group Executive producer Alaria Brophy,

1209
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: with audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening.

1210
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

1211
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

1212
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on