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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking about.

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Speaker 2: On Monday, the ninth of December. I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm

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Speaker 2: mea Friedman and today filling in for the wonderful Jesse

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Speaker 2: Stevens is Mama MIA's US correspondent, Amelia Lester. Welcome Amelia, Hello, Hello.

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Speaker 3: Can I just say also, as you get old of

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Speaker 3: you notice your she'll go oh like when you start

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Speaker 3: a whoops are daisy.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into today's show. On Friday's show, in

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Speaker 2: My Best and Worst, I talked about mammograms and breast

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Speaker 2: cancer and I just wanted to clarify that the advice

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Speaker 2: from the Department of Health and Aging is that women

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Speaker 2: over forty can have a free mammogram every two years.

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Speaker 2: I talked about how women over fifty, like myself, we

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Speaker 2: get an alert in our phones. Women over fifty actively

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Speaker 2: get invited, but women over forty can have a free

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Speaker 2: mammogram every two years.

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Speaker 3: The McGrath Foundation recommends women's self check breasts every month,

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Speaker 3: and they say that it's really important to regularly check

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Speaker 3: your breasts because you kind of need a baseline. You

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Speaker 3: need to know what's normal for your breasts and that's

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Speaker 3: the best way to spot any changes. If in doubt,

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Speaker 3: speak to your healthcare professional and will pop a link

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Speaker 3: in the show notes to the Breastscreen Australia program.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, a man was shot dead on a

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Speaker 2: New York City street and within forty eight hours his

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Speaker 2: killer had become pinup worthy, so pinup worthy that there

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Speaker 2: was a lookalike competition. Amelia Lester, please explain, also planning

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Speaker 2: to freeze your teenage daughter's ex incredible generosity or helicopter

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Speaker 2: parenting soaring ever higher? And No, Jennifer Garner and Ben

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Speaker 2: Affleck are not reuniting. The likely reason they keep being

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Speaker 2: photographed together is because Garner is man keeping and maybe

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Speaker 2: you are too. But first me a freedman.

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Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Donald Trump, Prince William Bill Biden,

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Speaker 3: French President Emmanuel Macron, Ukrainian President Voladimir Zelenski all walked

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Speaker 3: into a bar together on the weekend. Except it wasn't

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Speaker 3: a bar. It was the Notre Dame Cathedral. Which has

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Speaker 3: just reopened after the world famous landmark was badly damaged

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Speaker 3: by fire five years ago. Remember that, and it resulted

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Speaker 3: in some very weird photos being released of Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: with Prince William and also Donald Trump I'm wrestling with

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Speaker 3: Emmanuel macrank. That gives off deep fake vibes. But this

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Speaker 3: is actually the world now, Holly, Welcome to Dystropia.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 2: It's such a strange moment where even on Prince William's

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Speaker 2: official Instagram, so you know, he and Kate's official Instagram,

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Speaker 2: they're the picture of him and Trump and it's like

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Speaker 2: tagging the real Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: And it's just such a.

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Speaker 1: Strange reality we live in.

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Speaker 2: And then Trump and Jill Biden are sharing a little

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Speaker 2: smile on the front row of the pews. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what are they all doing there?

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Speaker 3: All I could think of? Have you heard that mean

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Speaker 3: nightmare blunt rotation?

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Speaker 4: So I guess it started around twenty twenty one on

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Speaker 4: TikTok and Twitter. It's referring to who you would like

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Speaker 4: to smoke cannabis with on who you would not like

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Speaker 4: to smoke.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you mean like when you're sitting around and everyone's

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Speaker 3: passing around exactly.

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Speaker 4: I have two little tipbits for you on this because

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Speaker 4: I'm obsessed with this news event. The first is that mccron.

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Speaker 1: Rolled out the actual red carpet.

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Speaker 4: For Trump, and apparently that's a really big deal because

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Speaker 4: the actual French red carpet should only be for sitting leaders,

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Speaker 4: and of course Trump is not yet the.

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Speaker 3: Actual used to not get along.

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Speaker 4: They never really got along. Now I've got along with him,

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Speaker 4: which is not surprising really. But now he's just doing

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Speaker 4: everything he can to get into Trump's good books. But

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Speaker 4: on the campaign trail, Trump was often mocking Macron. Do

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Speaker 4: you remember this? He would imitate his accent. He talked

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Speaker 4: about how he was going to put all these tariffs

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Speaker 4: on champagne being shipped to the US. It's just great

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Speaker 4: to see them now together again, isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Fun? Fact?

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Speaker 4: Did you know that Trump's ambassador to France is the

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Speaker 4: father of Jared, His son in law Jared Kushner. His

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Speaker 4: name is Charles Kushner. He pleaded guilty to eighteen criminal

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Speaker 4: accunts in two thousand and five. One of them involved

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Speaker 4: him hiring a sex worker to seduce his brother in law.

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Speaker 4: He videotaped it and then he sent that video to

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Speaker 4: his own sister, so maybe that's what they were talking about.

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Speaker 2: Such wholesome family dynamics.

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Speaker 5: It's head to New York because police there are continuing

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Speaker 5: there hunt for the gunman who killed the boss of

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Speaker 5: one of the biggest companies in the world. On Thursday,

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Speaker 5: detective shared new images of the man they want a

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Speaker 5: question over the shooting of the United Healthcare executive Brian

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Speaker 5: Thompson outside a hotel on Wednesday morning.

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Speaker 6: The breaking news We've got new details about the gun

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Speaker 6: used by the suspected shooter, police revealing just moments ago

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Speaker 6: that they are looking into the possibility that the assassin

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Speaker 6: used a veterinarian gun.

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Speaker 4: If you're confused why the Internet is celebrating the murder

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Speaker 4: of a business executive in broad daylight in New York

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Speaker 4: c lass week, let me explain. United Healthcare CEO Brian

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Speaker 4: Thompson was killed by a masked gunman outside his hotel

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Speaker 4: in Midtown Manhattan last Wednesday morning. Rompson was survived by

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Speaker 4: his wife, who was a physical therapist, and two sons.

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Speaker 4: At the time of recording, the murderer has not been found.

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Speaker 4: There's been a huge man hunt going on in New

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Speaker 4: York and beyond as a killer has, according to police,

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Speaker 4: tried to become a ghost. He escaped by bike to

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Speaker 4: Central Park where he abandoned a backpack, and that's really

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Speaker 4: the police's only clue as to his identity so far.

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Speaker 3: The Internet was very strange on the weekend because as

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Speaker 3: soon like, first of all, there was the footage and

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Speaker 3: it usually cut out just before the guns were fired.

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Speaker 3: But I saw a lot of footage on social of

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Speaker 3: the killer. This guy, he's fifty years old, is walking

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Speaker 3: early in the morning. He had a conference at a

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Speaker 3: hotel and again it was in broad daylight, and he

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Speaker 3: put his It looked like something out of a movie, right.

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Speaker 3: But then when the Internet kind of lost it was

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Speaker 3: when some photos of the killer were released when he

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Speaker 3: was in a hostel and he pulled his mask down,

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Speaker 3: and suddenly everyone was thirsty after the killer as well

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Speaker 3: as celebrating this murder. And hopefully you can explain why

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Speaker 3: that is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, first of all, he looked striking like Jake

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Speaker 4: Jillenhal to me in the security camera footage, so you think.

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Speaker 4: And also people were talking about how we went to

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Speaker 4: Starbucks beforehand, and he seems really kind of casual about this.

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Speaker 4: Become like this folk hero the murderer. Yeah, he's like

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Speaker 4: an American NT Kelly. Yes, So why so people are

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Speaker 4: calling this maybe the beginning of a class war. It

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Speaker 4: does seem like a real churning point in American life

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Speaker 4: that someone can be murdered in broad daylight and people

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Speaker 4: are laughing about it.

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Speaker 3: Cheering him on.

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Speaker 4: The bullets had delay and deny written on them, And

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Speaker 4: that's going to become important because this guy who was

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Speaker 4: killed was the CEO of a health insurance company, and

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Speaker 4: it's tapping into this deep anger people have with the

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Speaker 4: American health insurance industry.

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Speaker 2: To be clear, in America, they don't have a nationalized

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Speaker 2: health system like Medicare. They have private health insurance schemes,

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Speaker 2: which we also have here in Australia, and people pay

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Speaker 2: into them. But why are they anger?

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Speaker 4: So there's no Medicare in the US apart for people

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Speaker 4: over sixty five, So you have to take out private

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Speaker 4: health insurance. It's not like here where you can opt

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Speaker 4: in and it's sort of nicer and fancier.

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Speaker 3: You have to have it and your employer is usually

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Speaker 3: responsible for it.

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Speaker 4: So the most common way people afford it is by

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Speaker 4: having their employer share the cost of it. But even

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Speaker 4: then it's really expensive. So to give you an idea,

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Speaker 4: my employer in the US paid for about forty percent

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Speaker 4: of my children's health insurance, because yes, you also have

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Speaker 4: to get it for your children.

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Speaker 3: But even then it was I'm going to.

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Speaker 4: Use some real figures here, it was about one thousand

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Speaker 4: Ousie dollars a month for me taken out of my

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Speaker 4: paycheck for this very very basic health insurance.

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Speaker 2: And then the anger is about the fact that this

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Speaker 2: is very expensive, very onerous on this people who are

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Speaker 2: paying for it. But then when you come to claim,

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Speaker 2: very often deny and delay. Is that the point?

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Speaker 1: Yes, there's all these horrific stories.

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Speaker 4: So, for instance, whenever you get an ambulance in the US,

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Speaker 4: it's quite common that your ambulance will not be covered

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Speaker 4: by your health insurance because the hospital that they take

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Speaker 4: you to might not be in your network. A friend

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Speaker 4: his father had his gallbladder removed and even after insurance,

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Speaker 4: it was twenty thousand Australian dollars a day for him

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Speaker 4: in the hospital.

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Speaker 3: So I've heard it said that if someone in your family,

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Speaker 3: for example, gets diagnosed with cancer, that's the worst day

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Speaker 3: in your life. And yet it can get worse because

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Speaker 3: it also probably means you'll be bankrupt.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sixty percent of bankruptcies in the US are classified

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Speaker 4: as medical bankruptcies, which is kind of shocking. A couple

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Speaker 4: of stories about the health insurance company, in particular that

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Speaker 4: the guy who was killed was the CEO.

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Speaker 3: Of United Health.

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Speaker 4: It's regarded by doctors as one of the worst health

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Speaker 4: insurance companies. They deny a third of all claims, and.

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Speaker 3: It ensures forty nine million Americans.

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Speaker 4: Yes, they recently introduced an AI program to deny claims.

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Speaker 4: Earlier on in the process. A hospital has even dropped

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Speaker 4: out of being in this insurance company's network as they

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Speaker 4: said they were denying too much.

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Speaker 3: There were a lot of people leaving sort of ironic

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Speaker 3: comments on news stories about his murder. What kinds of

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Speaker 3: things are people saying? So?

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Speaker 4: For instance, one person under an instant posts from CNN wrote,

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Speaker 4: does he have a history of shootings? Denied coverage? Another

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Speaker 4: person said, I'm sorry, prior authorization is required for thoughts

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Speaker 4: and prayers. This is sort of riffing on the idea

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Speaker 4: that health insurance companies will find any reason to deny

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Speaker 4: you coverage, And it felt like kind of a vindication

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Speaker 4: for people. Everyone's got a nightmare story about American health insurance.

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Speaker 4: In fact, just last week, around the time of the

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Speaker 4: shooting and now, the health insurance company released a policy

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Speaker 4: that said it would no longer pay for anesthesia if

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Speaker 4: a surgery past a pre allotted time limit.

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Speaker 3: So I guess the thinking is.

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Speaker 4: You're under the knife, you're in surgery, and then you're

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Speaker 4: meant to wake up from your anesthesia, and so excuse me,

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Speaker 4: the surgery has gone past the time limit. Please please

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Speaker 4: stop stop using the anestheticomy. That gives you a sense

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Speaker 4: of how insane the health insurance industry has become in

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Speaker 4: the US.

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Speaker 3: There are these amazing things about America, and I know

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Speaker 3: we've got a lot of American out louders, so I

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Speaker 3: want to be careful about what I say. And I'm

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Speaker 3: not talking about individuals, but I'm sort of talking about

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Speaker 3: overall laws and culture. There are some real anomalies about America.

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Speaker 3: One is guns. Another is the lack of health insurance.

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Speaker 3: And every time anyone has tried to introduce any kind

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Speaker 3: of Medicare type system, there's been massive pushback against it.

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Speaker 3: And this idea, I mean, everything I know about the

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Speaker 3: American health system comes from watching Er and Gray's anatomy

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Speaker 3: where it's a consideration whether you can get health care

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Speaker 3: or not based on whether you're ensured, and the idea

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Speaker 3: of going bankrupt because you or someone you love is

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Speaker 3: sick is just astonishingly cruel.

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Speaker 4: The thing that really stood out for me when I

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Speaker 4: was researching this and thinking about how to explain the

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Speaker 4: system that I've come to accept as normal, is that your.

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Speaker 1: Healthcare is tied to your job.

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Speaker 4: So it's a real disincentive to leave a job that

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Speaker 4: you don't like, or if you're fired from a job,

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Speaker 4: not only do you have that's financial stress, you also

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Speaker 4: have the stress of how you're going to pay for

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Speaker 4: your health insurance.

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Speaker 3: So there's no safety net for the poorest peace people

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Speaker 3: and unemployed people. There's no safety net.

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Speaker 4: There's no safety net. So Obama was the last president

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Speaker 4: to make sort of big strides on healthcare, but without

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Speaker 4: getting into the weeds on that there's no safety net.

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Speaker 4: He made it cheaper to access healthcare, but there isn't

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Speaker 4: a sort of worst case scenario. And in fact, this

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Speaker 4: health insurance company, United Health, had introduced this algorithm that

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Speaker 4: called therapists who were spending too much time with patients

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Speaker 4: or who were seeing patients too often, and this company

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Speaker 4: care advocate basically cut off reimbursements when they said that

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Speaker 4: the therapist was seeing patients too often.

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Speaker 2: So all of this goes some way to explain why

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Speaker 2: the cold blooded murder of basically a businessman in the

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Speaker 2: street is being sort of held up as a bit

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Speaker 2: of a Ned Kelly moment.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And then the fact that the shooter appears to

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Speaker 2: be handsome, yes, gives the internet something else to talk about.

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Speaker 4: I was flirting with the cashier at the hostel he

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Speaker 4: stayed at.

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Speaker 2: And it does, as Mia said before, very much feels

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Speaker 2: like a spy movie or a crime movie. But it

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Speaker 2: isn't right. This is a man has been murdered broad daylight,

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Speaker 2: and all I can see on x or even on

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Speaker 2: Instagram is a lot of people posting hilarious memes about it.

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Speaker 2: So when you say you think this is the beginning

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Speaker 2: of a bit of a phase of class warfare, what

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Speaker 2: do you mean?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? And by the way, what's really interesting is that

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Speaker 4: a lot of that spilling out anger and mirth at

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Speaker 4: this is actually coming from health care providers. So there

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Speaker 4: was a Reddit thread on a discussion board devoted to doctors,

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Speaker 4: which had to be shut down by Reddit because they

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Speaker 4: were doing too much celebrating and too much glorification of violence.

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Speaker 4: Because often, to your point, Mia, the people who feel

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Speaker 4: the most frustrated about this system are the doctors and

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Speaker 4: nurses who have to deal with these health insurance companies

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Speaker 4: saying that they know better than them.

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Speaker 3: And not being able to give the care that they

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Speaker 3: want to to their patients and that they know their

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Speaker 3: patients need because it's not covered by these healthcare exactly.

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Speaker 3: There's a tech journalist called Taylor Lorenzo's very well known,

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Speaker 3: who is posting photos of other CEOs of other health

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Speaker 3: insurance providers as if it's like, well, who's next, which

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Speaker 3: was just wild.

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Speaker 4: She's become quite radicalized because she has long COVID and

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Speaker 4: so she's obviously had a lot of interactions with the

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Speaker 4: healthcare system recently. I do think that there feels like

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Speaker 4: there's something brewing in the US, and Trump's election is

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Speaker 4: of a piece with this as well, and that might

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Speaker 4: seem strange because he's kind of famously a rich guy.

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Speaker 4: I think that the perception is that he's a rich guy,

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Speaker 4: he's going to fight for working people's interests in a

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Speaker 4: system which is stacked against working people. There's also talk

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Speaker 4: now that CEOs and other rich people are going to

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Speaker 4: become even more isolated from everyday people. CEOs are no

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Speaker 4: longer going to walk around in the streets, They're not

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Speaker 4: going to attend company conferences like this guy was without

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Speaker 4: further security, and we're going to have the further division

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Speaker 4: of American society into the really rich and then everyone else.

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Speaker 2: So there was like a lookalike doppelganga event, and I

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Speaker 2: say event in inverted commas because it was like thirty

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Speaker 2: people turned up, but in the way that we were

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Speaker 2: talking about on the show. Recently, they've become quite common

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Speaker 2: culturally to Timothy Chalamet and you know whoever else. It

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Speaker 2: was hes Ledge recently, and so people started putting up

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Speaker 2: posters and saying CEO shooter lookalike contest in Central Park

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Speaker 2: at this time. It also speaks a little bit to

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Speaker 2: me at the removal that everybody has with the violence

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Speaker 2: of this crime. Because I've seen the footage on the

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Speaker 2: internet many people have. It looks for all the world

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Speaker 2: like a video game. It looks I just think that

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Speaker 2: maybe we see so much of that that it's hard

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Speaker 2: to feel the humanity of it in a way, and

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Speaker 2: so the guys who are turning up dressed as the

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Speaker 2: shooter and having a bit of a laugh and hoping

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Speaker 2: to win fifty bucks feels like there's a real disconnect there.

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Speaker 4: And I also don't think that they're going to be

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Speaker 4: able to find this guy because the Internet is full

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Speaker 4: of these messages saying I'll provide him safe harbor, come

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Speaker 4: and stay with me, and no one's calling the police

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Speaker 4: tips line, even though there's a reward out because there's

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Speaker 4: this sort of ground swell of we're going to protect

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Speaker 4: this guy from law enforcement because he's speaking up for

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Speaker 4: us in the same way that Trump is in Both

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Speaker 4: of them have these very destructive ways about them, but

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Speaker 4: people are prepared to put up with that because they're

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Speaker 4: so angry.

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Speaker 2: After the break. A high profile fertility doctor says, the

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Speaker 2: egg freezing is the greatest gift I could possibly give

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Speaker 2: my teenage girls.

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Speaker 3: If you're looking for a Christmas present for the teenage

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Speaker 3: girl or young woman in your life, have you considered

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Speaker 3: a voucher for egg freezing. There's an article on Oprah

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Speaker 3: Daily this week called the greatest gift I could possibly

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Speaker 3: give my Teenage Girls, written by a woman called Jamie Knopman,

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Speaker 3: who is a fertility doctor. She talks about being at

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Speaker 3: a Taylor Swift concert. She has two daughters, I think

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Speaker 3: they're about fifteen and thirteen, and during the Taylor Swift

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Speaker 3: song twenty two, she starts crying, and her daughters think

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Speaker 3: that it's because she's so moved, perhaps by her ability

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Speaker 3: to secure tickets for the show, but she says it's

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Speaker 3: actually because the song is about the fleeting nature of

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Speaker 3: youth and looking back on your youth. And she says

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Speaker 3: twenty two is the age at which her daughters don't

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Speaker 3: know this yet, but that she's going to offer to

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Speaker 3: pay for their egg freezing. She wrote, my girls probably

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Speaker 3: thought I was crying tears of gratitude at that concert.

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Speaker 3: I was. I wish that the night could last forever,

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Speaker 3: and that I could freeze time. But they were also

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Speaker 3: tears of freedom, because I can freeze time in a

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Speaker 3: way for my girls. There would be so much misery

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Speaker 3: and magic ahead, most of it out of my control.

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Speaker 3: I will never be able to make mean girls be nice,

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Speaker 3: mitigate the sting of a breakup, or guarantee them healthy children.

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Speaker 3: But I can preserve their fertility, so they have the

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Speaker 3: gift of time. The sound you can hear out louders

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Speaker 3: is Holly Wainwright's eyes rolling back into her head and

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Speaker 3: onto the floor and out the door. Oh, I thought

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Speaker 3: there were tears of freedom.

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Speaker 2: It's a freedom, Holly.

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Speaker 3: I imagine that you're going to have a lot to

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Speaker 3: say about this, and none of it good.

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Speaker 2: The article she wrote was in Oprah magazine. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: I saw the headline on Instagram and I immediately stopped

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Speaker 2: my thumb and prepared myself to get cross.

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Speaker 3: Yes, sometimes she like to do that. Sometimes I prepare

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Speaker 3: myself for you getting cross, like I'm going to get cross.

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Speaker 2: And then I read it and I realized that in

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Speaker 2: a way, this was a bit of spon con for

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Speaker 2: this doctor, right, because she is apparently high profile fertility doctor.

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Speaker 2: She's known as the Queen of egg freezing in New

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Speaker 2: York City, and she's been enjoying a bit of a

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Speaker 2: boom because over the past decade it's become incredibly normalized

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Speaker 2: for young women to freeze their eggs. And in many

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Speaker 2: cases that's very good news. Right personally know a lot

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Speaker 2: of women who have frozen their eggs. But this article

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Speaker 2: and talking about that she wants to do it when

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Speaker 2: her daughters are twenty two. She's expanding her base because

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Speaker 2: the typical age that a woman thinks about getting her

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Speaker 2: eggs frozen is in her early thirties usually. But this

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Speaker 2: lady's like, no, girls, you need to be thinking about

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Speaker 2: it soon.

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Speaker 3: Good marketing.

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Speaker 2: But the other reason it made me cranky. And I

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Speaker 2: know I come from asition of privilege in this in

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Speaker 2: that I have children, But we talk all the time

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Speaker 2: about helicopter parenting, and mea, you are a very vocal

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Speaker 2: critic of helicopter parenting, while also putting your hand up

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Speaker 2: and admitting you are one. Yeah, we generally say that

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Speaker 2: helicopter parenting or snowplow parenting, this idea that you could

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Speaker 2: remove all obstacles from the path of your children, that

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Speaker 2: you can avoid anything negative ever happening to them, any

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Speaker 2: circumstances that may be uncomfortable or sad or difficult. We

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Speaker 2: generally have been agreeing lately that that hasn't been great

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Speaker 2: for this generation of young adults. We talk about things

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Speaker 2: like their resilience being down, we talk about high anxiety,

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Speaker 2: all those things, and yet articles like this are just

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Speaker 2: continually lifting the bar on, like, so now you know,

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Speaker 2: of course we're all like housing crisis. So if you

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Speaker 2: can afford to buy your kids a house or give

394
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Speaker 2: them a big deposit, you should definitely be doing that.

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Speaker 2: You know, you should be doing all these things, and

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Speaker 2: now apparently should also be making sure that you pay

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00:19:06,927 --> 00:19:09,207
Speaker 2: for their fertility treatments, whether they need them or not,

398
00:19:10,007 --> 00:19:12,567
Speaker 2: to make sure that they would never suffer well to

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Speaker 2: give them a pain of infertility in future. I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: what are we doing?

401
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Speaker 3: What are we doing? What do you think, Amelia? How

402
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Speaker 3: old your daughter?

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Speaker 4: This took me back a little bit because when I

404
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Speaker 4: was thirty two, I just had a really devastating breakup

405
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Speaker 4: with someone who I thought I was going to marry,

406
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Speaker 4: and I went very far down the road of egg freezing,

407
00:19:34,127 --> 00:19:37,087
Speaker 4: to the point where i'd gone to see the doctor

408
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Speaker 4: at the university in town that was the best place

409
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Speaker 4: to get your eggs frozen.

410
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Speaker 3: And I expected him to laugh me.

411
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Speaker 4: Out of there and say, you're only thirty two, you

412
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Speaker 4: don't need to do this, but of course he didn't,

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Speaker 4: because that is his business. And he showed me an

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Speaker 4: alarming graph, and I got as so far as to

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Speaker 4: have a cervical exam and then I called a friend

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Speaker 4: of mine who was a doctor, and I told her

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Speaker 4: what I was going to do, and she said something

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Speaker 4: that really stuck with me, which was she said, why

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Speaker 4: would you have a medical procedure when you don't have to?

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Speaker 4: And then she said something else that was kind of

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Speaker 4: confronting at the time, and I was a little bit

422
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Speaker 4: angry at but in retrospect I see where.

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Speaker 3: She said it.

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Speaker 4: She suggested that I was looking for a medical solution

425
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Speaker 4: to a problem that was not medical and nature the

426
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Speaker 4: problem was that I'd had this devastating breakup. I thought

427
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Speaker 4: I'd never meet anyone else. I wanted children, but more

428
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Speaker 4: than that, I wanted a partner who I could feel

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Speaker 4: happy and excited about and sharing my life with. And

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Speaker 4: in a way, I hoped that by throwing money at

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Speaker 4: this I could feel better about not having that.

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Speaker 3: I don't agree with your friend. To me, I think

433
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Speaker 3: this is about options and egg freezing. You know, firstly,

434
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Speaker 3: we want to just draw a ring around the women

435
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Speaker 3: who have egg freezing for medical reasons, perhaps because they

436
00:20:51,727 --> 00:20:55,887
Speaker 3: have to undergo cancer treatment, which is a whole other thing, yeah,

437
00:20:55,927 --> 00:20:58,287
Speaker 3: and which is not what we're talking about exactly. It's

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Speaker 3: a whole other thing.

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Speaker 2: I draw a ring around any woman who is being

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Speaker 2: advised to do that, like to have that like it's

441
00:21:05,287 --> 00:21:07,567
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with egg freezing. No, no, no, no, it's this

442
00:21:07,647 --> 00:21:11,807
Speaker 2: idea that we should be making there are children. Yeah, yeah,

443
00:21:11,807 --> 00:21:13,607
Speaker 2: that's interesting, isn't it Again.

444
00:21:13,927 --> 00:21:17,647
Speaker 3: I think that what your friend missed was that, of course,

445
00:21:17,687 --> 00:21:21,167
Speaker 3: it's the breakup that made you think about it, because

446
00:21:21,207 --> 00:21:24,807
Speaker 3: you were faced with the reality that unless you met

447
00:21:25,047 --> 00:21:28,167
Speaker 3: someone who wanted to have children and you wanted to

448
00:21:28,207 --> 00:21:30,407
Speaker 3: have children with them in the next couple of years,

449
00:21:30,807 --> 00:21:33,567
Speaker 3: things might be difficult, that window might close for you.

450
00:21:33,647 --> 00:21:36,287
Speaker 3: And I think that's actually just sensible. I don't think

451
00:21:36,327 --> 00:21:40,007
Speaker 3: that's you were looking for a medical solution to an

452
00:21:40,007 --> 00:21:42,607
Speaker 3: emotional problem. I think there was an emotional problem, but

453
00:21:42,887 --> 00:21:44,047
Speaker 3: I think it was contextual.

454
00:21:44,367 --> 00:21:46,447
Speaker 4: But I think her point was that, and this is

455
00:21:46,487 --> 00:21:49,647
Speaker 4: where it ties in with Holly. It's about control, wanting

456
00:21:49,687 --> 00:21:51,847
Speaker 4: to get the perception of control of its something that

457
00:21:51,927 --> 00:21:54,967
Speaker 4: you still don't control even if you freeze your eggsyah.

458
00:21:54,567 --> 00:21:56,167
Speaker 3: But you control it a bit more than if you

459
00:21:56,207 --> 00:21:59,807
Speaker 3: don't freeze your eggs No, yes, of course. And I

460
00:21:59,927 --> 00:22:01,927
Speaker 3: just answered it's good when I answer my own questions.

461
00:22:02,607 --> 00:22:06,087
Speaker 3: So to me, it's about I know a lot of

462
00:22:06,127 --> 00:22:10,247
Speaker 3: people who have children with the wrong person, or who

463
00:22:10,327 --> 00:22:14,927
Speaker 3: settle for someone because they're biological clocks ticking and they

464
00:22:14,967 --> 00:22:18,727
Speaker 3: don't want to start again at age thirty two. To me,

465
00:22:19,527 --> 00:22:25,367
Speaker 3: having frozen eggs just gives you more freedom and more control,

466
00:22:25,807 --> 00:22:28,327
Speaker 3: just like and I'm going to mangle this, but like

467
00:22:28,767 --> 00:22:31,607
Speaker 3: having the right to an abortion, whether you use it

468
00:22:31,727 --> 00:22:34,567
Speaker 3: or not, it's important that you have the right.

469
00:22:34,807 --> 00:22:37,247
Speaker 2: My issue is not with egg freezing, which again I

470
00:22:37,287 --> 00:22:38,927
Speaker 2: want to say, you know, I know people have got

471
00:22:39,007 --> 00:22:42,167
Speaker 2: children because they froze their eggs, much wanted children because

472
00:22:42,167 --> 00:22:42,967
Speaker 2: they're froze their eggs.

473
00:22:43,007 --> 00:22:43,407
Speaker 1: It's not that.

474
00:22:44,007 --> 00:22:48,127
Speaker 2: My issue with this idea that if you have daughters

475
00:22:48,247 --> 00:22:50,767
Speaker 2: and you think those daughters might want to live, as

476
00:22:50,767 --> 00:22:52,687
Speaker 2: this woman says, like all kinds of lives. You know,

477
00:22:52,727 --> 00:22:54,607
Speaker 2: she's like, go off an adventure and do this and

478
00:22:54,647 --> 00:22:57,167
Speaker 2: do that, But you wouldn't want to ever find yourself

479
00:22:57,167 --> 00:22:59,047
Speaker 2: in a situation where you might not be able to

480
00:22:59,087 --> 00:23:00,647
Speaker 2: have the children that you don't know whether or not

481
00:23:00,687 --> 00:23:02,647
Speaker 2: you want them yet, and you don't. And she also

482
00:23:02,687 --> 00:23:05,647
Speaker 2: has no idea yet whether her daughters want to have

483
00:23:05,727 --> 00:23:08,407
Speaker 2: babies or are going to have any issues having babies.

484
00:23:08,607 --> 00:23:12,167
Speaker 2: So by saying at twenty two, I'm going to strongly

485
00:23:12,247 --> 00:23:15,167
Speaker 2: encourage and in fact pay for you to do this

486
00:23:15,247 --> 00:23:17,847
Speaker 2: thing that you don't necessarily need to do, it smacks

487
00:23:17,887 --> 00:23:21,207
Speaker 2: to me of control, but not giving the girls control,

488
00:23:21,247 --> 00:23:24,607
Speaker 2: but parental control, because it's like, I'm buying the option

489
00:23:24,887 --> 00:23:27,087
Speaker 2: of having You've got no excuse not to give me

490
00:23:27,087 --> 00:23:28,687
Speaker 2: those grandchildren that I want, ladies.

491
00:23:28,767 --> 00:23:29,287
Speaker 3: That's true.

492
00:23:29,327 --> 00:23:32,847
Speaker 2: And also I'm really interested by the time where we

493
00:23:32,887 --> 00:23:36,087
Speaker 2: think that adult children are not children but adults. Right

494
00:23:36,607 --> 00:23:38,927
Speaker 2: where does she stop and they begin? Do you know

495
00:23:38,927 --> 00:23:41,447
Speaker 2: what I mean? Her kids when they're twenty two. She's like,

496
00:23:41,527 --> 00:23:43,807
Speaker 2: I'm gonna and maybe her kids will be like, thanks, mum,

497
00:23:43,847 --> 00:23:45,207
Speaker 2: that's amazing, that's great.

498
00:23:45,487 --> 00:23:47,487
Speaker 3: What if they don't want to, she did say, of course,

499
00:23:47,527 --> 00:23:49,127
Speaker 3: if they want to, but also going to hold them do.

500
00:23:49,247 --> 00:23:52,367
Speaker 2: But also it's a strong cultural signal to them that

501
00:23:52,527 --> 00:23:55,047
Speaker 2: a they order have babies, definitely have babies who want

502
00:23:55,167 --> 00:23:57,127
Speaker 2: who would want a life without babies in it, you know,

503
00:23:57,567 --> 00:24:00,447
Speaker 2: And that is a cultural issue in itself. It's sending

504
00:24:00,447 --> 00:24:02,487
Speaker 2: a very strong message to women that if they don't

505
00:24:02,487 --> 00:24:06,167
Speaker 2: have children, then that's a tragedy the end. And also

506
00:24:06,967 --> 00:24:10,527
Speaker 2: it's saying I'm going to try and ensure you against

507
00:24:10,527 --> 00:24:16,007
Speaker 2: every choice, priority, negative, experience risk that would get in

508
00:24:16,047 --> 00:24:18,487
Speaker 2: the way of this life that I've pictured for you.

509
00:24:18,927 --> 00:24:21,767
Speaker 2: That's the problem I have with this idea of normalizing

510
00:24:21,807 --> 00:24:24,127
Speaker 2: this as something that a good parent might do.

511
00:24:24,247 --> 00:24:27,007
Speaker 3: So like, I don't want you to have to ever

512
00:24:27,127 --> 00:24:29,927
Speaker 3: sacrifice anything. I don't want you to ever have to

513
00:24:29,967 --> 00:24:33,447
Speaker 3: make difficult choices right when life is about trade off? Yeah,

514
00:24:33,487 --> 00:24:35,407
Speaker 3: life is about trade offs. Look where she lost me

515
00:24:36,687 --> 00:24:39,807
Speaker 3: was where she said how she hasn't told them yet

516
00:24:39,847 --> 00:24:41,407
Speaker 3: that she's going to do this for them when they're

517
00:24:41,447 --> 00:24:42,887
Speaker 3: twenty two, or she going to offer this to them.

518
00:24:42,927 --> 00:24:45,487
Speaker 3: She said, I have also not told them that. On

519
00:24:45,527 --> 00:24:49,127
Speaker 3: several occasions, I have dmd Taylor Swift on Instagram asking

520
00:24:49,167 --> 00:24:51,807
Speaker 3: if she has frozen her eggs because I want her

521
00:24:51,887 --> 00:24:55,007
Speaker 3: too to have options or she loves that. That's creepy.

522
00:24:55,207 --> 00:24:57,967
Speaker 4: I do think one really interesting sort of cultural comment

523
00:24:58,007 --> 00:25:00,247
Speaker 4: in this article is that she mentioned that over the

524
00:25:00,287 --> 00:25:03,567
Speaker 4: last ten years she's gone from being called an infertility

525
00:25:03,647 --> 00:25:06,047
Speaker 4: doctor to a fertility doctor. Yeah.

526
00:25:06,247 --> 00:25:06,767
Speaker 3: Interesting.

527
00:25:07,007 --> 00:25:10,327
Speaker 2: I find that really interesting too much a signal back

528
00:25:10,367 --> 00:25:14,047
Speaker 2: to that idea that while egg freezing is incredibly valid.

529
00:25:14,487 --> 00:25:15,287
Speaker 3: It's also a.

530
00:25:15,207 --> 00:25:20,247
Speaker 2: Booming business, and she's encouraging as many women as possible

531
00:25:20,287 --> 00:25:22,927
Speaker 2: to be thinking about this as early as possible. Benefits

532
00:25:23,487 --> 00:25:26,887
Speaker 2: the people who you're paying, because it's expensive. It's really expensive.

533
00:25:26,967 --> 00:25:29,287
Speaker 2: I know young women who've saved up to do this,

534
00:25:29,527 --> 00:25:32,527
Speaker 2: And I just find that very cynical that she's sort

535
00:25:32,527 --> 00:25:36,727
Speaker 2: of saying that, actually, my business now is not entreating infertility, but.

536
00:25:37,087 --> 00:25:40,327
Speaker 4: In not entreating it problem, but rather a preemptive solution

537
00:25:40,487 --> 00:25:42,007
Speaker 4: to a problem that you may or may not have.

538
00:25:42,247 --> 00:25:44,847
Speaker 3: She talks about the difference between young patients and her

539
00:25:44,887 --> 00:25:49,087
Speaker 3: being a fertility doctor versus older patients, where it's more

540
00:25:49,127 --> 00:25:52,127
Speaker 3: about infertility, and she says, rather than coming to my

541
00:25:52,167 --> 00:25:55,567
Speaker 3: office consumed by anguish and fear, the predominant undercurrent with

542
00:25:55,607 --> 00:25:59,527
Speaker 3: my older patients, younger women are boldly strategically preserving their

543
00:25:59,567 --> 00:26:03,087
Speaker 3: fertility before their eggs deteriorate. Not all of my patients

544
00:26:03,127 --> 00:26:05,007
Speaker 3: even know if they want kids, but they want to

545
00:26:05,007 --> 00:26:07,047
Speaker 3: make that decision when the time is right for them,

546
00:26:07,407 --> 00:26:11,807
Speaker 3: unfettered by biological barriers. It's a little bit like boatox, right.

547
00:26:11,927 --> 00:26:15,287
Speaker 3: It's like if I look good on the outside, maybe

548
00:26:15,567 --> 00:26:19,287
Speaker 3: that can delay the internal march of time, and life's

549
00:26:19,287 --> 00:26:20,327
Speaker 3: gonna have fetets.

550
00:26:20,367 --> 00:26:22,847
Speaker 4: Like she wants everything to be unfettered for her kids,

551
00:26:22,847 --> 00:26:24,567
Speaker 4: there's gonna be some fetters in there.

552
00:26:24,607 --> 00:26:28,287
Speaker 3: Definitely fetess. Look, I think it's interesting. I'm going to

553
00:26:28,367 --> 00:26:31,607
Speaker 3: offer it to my daughter if she wants it. Should

554
00:26:31,607 --> 00:26:34,727
Speaker 3: I offer it to my sons as well? For decades

555
00:26:34,807 --> 00:26:37,167
Speaker 3: they can be rupert Murdock and keep pumping.

556
00:26:37,327 --> 00:26:40,007
Speaker 4: Don't you worry that it's sending that message Holly talks

557
00:26:40,047 --> 00:26:43,287
Speaker 4: about where it's like having children is the only way

558
00:26:43,287 --> 00:26:44,927
Speaker 4: to be complete in this life.

559
00:26:45,207 --> 00:26:50,087
Speaker 3: No, I think it's saying options. To me, it's saying options.

560
00:26:50,167 --> 00:26:54,407
Speaker 3: It's a positive thing. You're right, it is about control

561
00:26:54,447 --> 00:26:57,047
Speaker 3: because it's like, well, maybe she won't rush into having

562
00:26:57,167 --> 00:26:59,687
Speaker 3: kids if she knows she can have them later. But yeah,

563
00:26:59,727 --> 00:27:01,527
Speaker 3: it Look it does feel a little interfero.

564
00:27:01,607 --> 00:27:03,647
Speaker 2: I sometimes wonder if we've swung that, you know how

565
00:27:03,807 --> 00:27:06,687
Speaker 2: we ten years ago were definitely saying women need to

566
00:27:06,687 --> 00:27:09,687
Speaker 2: be educated about their fertility, they need to understand after

567
00:27:09,727 --> 00:27:12,927
Speaker 2: thirty five, you know, fertility dipses and all of that

568
00:27:13,047 --> 00:27:15,207
Speaker 2: is true. But sometimes I think we've swung too far

569
00:27:15,247 --> 00:27:17,487
Speaker 2: the other way, where now we're telling twenty year olds

570
00:27:17,487 --> 00:27:19,847
Speaker 2: that they need to be really worried about their fertility,

571
00:27:19,887 --> 00:27:22,327
Speaker 2: and I just think we need to be aware that

572
00:27:22,327 --> 00:27:25,127
Speaker 2: that benefits some people more than others, of course.

573
00:27:25,167 --> 00:27:28,087
Speaker 3: And look, most people don't have ten grand like exactly

574
00:27:28,407 --> 00:27:29,567
Speaker 3: to give to their kids.

575
00:27:29,327 --> 00:27:32,327
Speaker 2: To for their like possible preemptive egg freezing.

576
00:27:32,367 --> 00:27:34,167
Speaker 4: No, I'd say that's better spend on a house to

577
00:27:34,247 --> 00:27:37,407
Speaker 4: bus it. It's my favorite time of year. Well that

578
00:27:37,527 --> 00:27:40,447
Speaker 4: might be overstaying it a bit, but Pantone has announced

579
00:27:40,487 --> 00:27:42,687
Speaker 4: its color of the Year for twenty twenty five.

580
00:27:42,767 --> 00:27:44,607
Speaker 3: Do you want to know what it is? Holly's wearing it?

581
00:27:44,687 --> 00:27:47,127
Speaker 3: I am you were out on purpose, even though.

582
00:27:47,087 --> 00:27:50,447
Speaker 2: Well sort of, even though I actively have dissed this choice,

583
00:27:50,887 --> 00:27:54,327
Speaker 2: I did come head to toe in this this color.

584
00:27:54,087 --> 00:27:55,207
Speaker 3: Today, Mike brown.

585
00:27:56,007 --> 00:27:59,927
Speaker 4: It's called Mokammosema not my brown, and according to design experts,

586
00:27:59,927 --> 00:28:03,847
Speaker 4: it is a soft and chocolatey brown. The Pantone Color

587
00:28:03,887 --> 00:28:07,247
Speaker 4: Institute is a global color authority and provider of professional

588
00:28:07,247 --> 00:28:11,127
Speaker 4: color language standards. They do this every year since nineteen

589
00:28:11,207 --> 00:28:13,807
Speaker 4: ninety nine. They announced the color for the upcoming year.

590
00:28:13,847 --> 00:28:16,407
Speaker 4: It's kind of a mix between a trend forecast and

591
00:28:16,447 --> 00:28:19,527
Speaker 4: their preference. It's very much a projection for the next year.

592
00:28:19,687 --> 00:28:22,007
Speaker 3: Can you explain why in twenty twenty there were two

593
00:28:22,407 --> 00:28:24,487
Speaker 3: because I went back and looked at all the different

594
00:28:24,727 --> 00:28:27,687
Speaker 3: Pantone colors of the year, and last year or this

595
00:28:27,767 --> 00:28:30,447
Speaker 3: year twenty twenty four, it was like a peachy color,

596
00:28:31,327 --> 00:28:33,407
Speaker 3: and then in twenty twenty you pointed out that it

597
00:28:33,447 --> 00:28:36,367
Speaker 3: was gray and yellow. I have that looked terrible together.

598
00:28:36,487 --> 00:28:38,487
Speaker 4: Well, actually, I had this weird thing where I always

599
00:28:38,567 --> 00:28:40,927
Speaker 4: like to get something that's the color of the year.

600
00:28:41,367 --> 00:28:45,287
Speaker 3: And in twenty twenty, I know it's really weird, very strange,

601
00:28:45,447 --> 00:28:47,127
Speaker 3: twenty like what kind of thing.

602
00:28:47,647 --> 00:28:49,927
Speaker 4: So in twenty twenty I got slippers because there's a

603
00:28:49,927 --> 00:28:53,527
Speaker 4: great slippers brand out of Portugal called Mahabi's. I call

604
00:28:53,607 --> 00:28:54,607
Speaker 4: them my thinking shoes.

605
00:28:54,767 --> 00:28:56,727
Speaker 2: Oh, they're always being served to me on the internet.

606
00:28:56,727 --> 00:28:58,207
Speaker 2: I thought that was an old person.

607
00:28:57,927 --> 00:29:00,487
Speaker 4: The comfy of slipper in the world. That's my recommendation

608
00:29:00,527 --> 00:29:02,807
Speaker 4: this week. Anyway, in twenty twenty, they did a gray

609
00:29:02,887 --> 00:29:06,167
Speaker 4: and yellow slipper the Pantone colors, and it turned out

610
00:29:06,207 --> 00:29:08,607
Speaker 4: to be great for twenty twenty because in twenty twenty

611
00:29:08,687 --> 00:29:10,967
Speaker 4: you were gray and gloomy most of the time, but

612
00:29:11,007 --> 00:29:14,527
Speaker 4: then you needed this artificial pepping up every time restrictions lift.

613
00:29:14,327 --> 00:29:18,127
Speaker 1: It was bright yellow, so I still have toilet pepper available.

614
00:29:19,527 --> 00:29:20,167
Speaker 2: Yellow day.

615
00:29:20,887 --> 00:29:23,487
Speaker 4: But I want to talk about how this is part

616
00:29:23,527 --> 00:29:25,927
Speaker 4: of this trend that I think we're seeing everywhere now

617
00:29:26,087 --> 00:29:29,207
Speaker 4: where colors just disappearing from the world. Have you noticed this?

618
00:29:29,527 --> 00:29:32,487
Speaker 2: Yes? And also the fact that if everyone's seen the

619
00:29:32,487 --> 00:29:35,367
Speaker 2: picture will put it obviously on social I can't look

620
00:29:35,407 --> 00:29:38,407
Speaker 2: at this whipped chocolate moves and not think about the Supermoji.

621
00:29:38,607 --> 00:29:40,047
Speaker 3: You can't not I can't not think.

622
00:29:40,687 --> 00:29:43,207
Speaker 2: So basically, what they're all telling me is that twenty

623
00:29:43,247 --> 00:29:44,087
Speaker 2: twenty five is going.

624
00:29:44,007 --> 00:29:44,367
Speaker 3: To be shit.

625
00:29:44,607 --> 00:29:45,487
Speaker 2: That's what I feel.

626
00:29:45,487 --> 00:29:47,447
Speaker 3: Then why have you dressed like a Pilmoji che.

627
00:29:49,087 --> 00:29:53,047
Speaker 4: So something called the Science Museum Group analyzed seven thousand

628
00:29:53,047 --> 00:29:56,527
Speaker 4: photographs of everyday objects between eighteen hundred and twenty twenty,

629
00:29:56,727 --> 00:29:59,607
Speaker 4: and they declared that color really is disappearing from the world.

630
00:29:59,647 --> 00:30:02,367
Speaker 4: It's not just your imagination. Have you noticed that on

631
00:30:02,407 --> 00:30:05,207
Speaker 4: the road there's way fewer yellow cars than they used

632
00:30:05,247 --> 00:30:09,607
Speaker 4: to be upon Apparently, gray, black, and white been the

633
00:30:09,607 --> 00:30:12,247
Speaker 4: most popular colors since the year two thousand. The most

634
00:30:12,247 --> 00:30:16,207
Speaker 4: popular paint color, according to Julux, is basically grayish. There's

635
00:30:16,287 --> 00:30:18,967
Speaker 4: that sad beige lady on TikTok, the one who mocks

636
00:30:19,007 --> 00:30:22,407
Speaker 4: all the kids stuff being like beige colors. McDonald's I

637
00:30:22,487 --> 00:30:25,007
Speaker 4: just learned traded in its red and yellow roofs, which

638
00:30:25,047 --> 00:30:27,927
Speaker 4: I remember from growing up for like classy wooden slate.

639
00:30:28,127 --> 00:30:30,167
Speaker 3: I have noticed when I've been looking to buy clothes

640
00:30:30,207 --> 00:30:32,247
Speaker 3: for Luna there are a lot of neutrals now that

641
00:30:32,327 --> 00:30:36,487
Speaker 3: you come to say, everyone looks like very few bright colors,

642
00:30:36,967 --> 00:30:38,767
Speaker 3: which is interesting because when my kids were small, it

643
00:30:38,807 --> 00:30:41,687
Speaker 3: was all about pastels. Then the bright colors came in

644
00:30:41,727 --> 00:30:43,207
Speaker 3: and it was like, oh, kids look so great in

645
00:30:43,247 --> 00:30:45,207
Speaker 3: bright colors. And of course I've always been bright colors.

646
00:30:45,807 --> 00:30:48,407
Speaker 3: I am going the opposite way. So color fell out

647
00:30:48,447 --> 00:30:51,527
Speaker 3: of my wardrobe in the last sort of eighteen months,

648
00:30:51,567 --> 00:30:53,927
Speaker 3: and I decided I needed to wear brown suits. You

649
00:30:54,047 --> 00:30:57,727
Speaker 3: did weirdly, and now I'm bringing all the color back,

650
00:30:57,887 --> 00:30:59,847
Speaker 3: particularly red. That's my color of the year.

651
00:30:59,927 --> 00:31:02,007
Speaker 2: I really noticed this, and I saw a TikTok that

652
00:31:02,127 --> 00:31:05,527
Speaker 2: was pointing out that interior design and everybody's houses just

653
00:31:05,527 --> 00:31:07,727
Speaker 2: being shades of white and gray and bait, and then

654
00:31:07,767 --> 00:31:10,287
Speaker 2: it showed that sort of I think about it as

655
00:31:10,327 --> 00:31:15,447
Speaker 2: like a Skims Kardashian e. Everything else brown, beige, natural,

656
00:31:15,727 --> 00:31:19,447
Speaker 2: putrono chrome neutrals, and you're like, this is depressed.

657
00:31:19,527 --> 00:31:21,847
Speaker 4: Do you know that there's a theory about why decor

658
00:31:22,007 --> 00:31:24,967
Speaker 4: is gone that way, And it's because people view houses

659
00:31:25,047 --> 00:31:28,607
Speaker 4: now less as an idiosyncratic expression of self and more

660
00:31:28,687 --> 00:31:32,687
Speaker 4: as an investment, a transitory investment, so that the appeal

661
00:31:32,767 --> 00:31:35,927
Speaker 4: to the most people here is a depressing fact. Apparently

662
00:31:35,967 --> 00:31:39,527
Speaker 4: European songbirds are less colorful now, that's the climate change.

663
00:31:39,527 --> 00:31:41,207
Speaker 4: So they got the memo from pantone.

664
00:31:41,247 --> 00:31:43,087
Speaker 2: You know, if you think about twenty twenty four and

665
00:31:43,207 --> 00:31:45,447
Speaker 2: a color, you'd think bratt green, wouldn't you?

666
00:31:45,767 --> 00:31:48,647
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, except itself. Oh no, one wants to think

667
00:31:48,687 --> 00:31:52,687
Speaker 3: that I've got a suit brat green. What am I

668
00:31:52,767 --> 00:31:53,567
Speaker 3: going to do with it?

669
00:31:54,087 --> 00:31:55,047
Speaker 2: Sad thing said?

670
00:31:55,047 --> 00:31:56,607
Speaker 3: I want you to wear it every day. This is

671
00:31:56,647 --> 00:32:02,247
Speaker 3: your fight song in a moment, Jennifer Ghana and Ben

672
00:32:02,247 --> 00:32:04,807
Speaker 3: Affleck getting back together. I don't really care, but Holly

673
00:32:04,887 --> 00:32:05,527
Speaker 3: has a theory.

674
00:32:06,527 --> 00:32:10,807
Speaker 2: I do one unlimited out Louder says, we drop episodes

675
00:32:10,847 --> 00:32:15,367
Speaker 2: every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow

676
00:32:15,407 --> 00:32:16,887
Speaker 2: the link of the show notes to get us in

677
00:32:16,927 --> 00:32:20,127
Speaker 2: your ears five days a week and a huge thank

678
00:32:20,167 --> 00:32:30,007
Speaker 2: you to all. Our current subscribers are Ben Affleck and

679
00:32:30,087 --> 00:32:32,607
Speaker 2: Jennifer Garner, who were married for ten years and have

680
00:32:32,647 --> 00:32:36,327
Speaker 2: been separated foremost as long getting back together. I'm asking

681
00:32:36,487 --> 00:32:40,647
Speaker 2: because they keep being photographed together, manning a Thanksgiving charity barbecue,

682
00:32:40,887 --> 00:32:44,327
Speaker 2: driving in a car to an unspecified location, and every

683
00:32:44,367 --> 00:32:47,447
Speaker 2: time they are it's splashed across celebrity gossip sites with

684
00:32:47,487 --> 00:32:51,207
Speaker 2: breathless suggestions that after his divorce from j Lo, they

685
00:32:51,327 --> 00:32:55,047
Speaker 2: must be reuniting. I have another theory, and I think

686
00:32:55,047 --> 00:32:59,087
Speaker 2: it stacks up. It's called man keeping, and man keeping

687
00:32:59,407 --> 00:33:03,527
Speaker 2: isn't about keeping a man right coined by Stanford Universe.

688
00:33:03,567 --> 00:33:06,487
Speaker 3: Confused with men scaping now, which is also a different thing,

689
00:33:06,567 --> 00:33:08,087
Speaker 3: and I don't want.

690
00:33:07,927 --> 00:33:11,087
Speaker 2: To think about that. I've seen flex baktatu coined by

691
00:33:11,207 --> 00:33:17,407
Speaker 2: Stanford University researcher Angelica Ferrera. Mankeeping describes the caretaking role

692
00:33:17,447 --> 00:33:19,767
Speaker 2: that women often play for the men in their lives,

693
00:33:20,087 --> 00:33:24,127
Speaker 2: looking after their emotional needs, bolstering their confidence, supporting their

694
00:33:24,167 --> 00:33:28,447
Speaker 2: well being. Examples of man keeping would include man in

695
00:33:28,487 --> 00:33:31,367
Speaker 2: your life loses job. You know that this has been

696
00:33:31,367 --> 00:33:33,727
Speaker 2: a blow not only to finances, but his confidence and

697
00:33:33,767 --> 00:33:35,887
Speaker 2: self worth, so you take it on as a project,

698
00:33:36,327 --> 00:33:39,367
Speaker 2: encouraging activities. You know he's good at reminding him of

699
00:33:39,407 --> 00:33:42,447
Speaker 2: how smart and capable he is. Oh Man in your

700
00:33:42,447 --> 00:33:45,407
Speaker 2: Life breaks his arm. You know that not exercising makes

701
00:33:45,447 --> 00:33:47,927
Speaker 2: him depressed, so he spends a lot of time encouraging

702
00:33:48,007 --> 00:33:50,967
Speaker 2: him to get outside, go for walk, see friends. Or

703
00:33:51,527 --> 00:33:54,087
Speaker 2: Man in your Life gets divorced from his mega famous

704
00:33:54,167 --> 00:33:57,927
Speaker 2: age defying sequin shimmying superstar wife of two years is

705
00:33:58,007 --> 00:34:02,207
Speaker 2: subject of mass international speculation, starts riding a motorcycle everywhere

706
00:34:02,247 --> 00:34:04,847
Speaker 2: and scowling a lot. You fear his sobriety may be

707
00:34:04,927 --> 00:34:07,847
Speaker 2: endangered by the drama, so you take him to charity

708
00:34:07,847 --> 00:34:09,287
Speaker 2: barbecues and drive him around.

709
00:34:09,127 --> 00:34:11,487
Speaker 3: In just being in a nice person.

710
00:34:11,847 --> 00:34:15,007
Speaker 2: Jen Garner, who is dating another guy but has three

711
00:34:15,087 --> 00:34:17,327
Speaker 2: kids with Affleck, is man keeping.

712
00:34:17,447 --> 00:34:20,847
Speaker 3: Isn't it different though, when it's your ex partner who

713
00:34:20,887 --> 00:34:25,287
Speaker 3: you share children with. Yes, that your care for him

714
00:34:25,687 --> 00:34:28,127
Speaker 3: is an extension of your care for your children because

715
00:34:28,167 --> 00:34:31,087
Speaker 3: you want him to be stable, particularly if your kids

716
00:34:31,087 --> 00:34:35,527
Speaker 3: are spending time with him in a shared custody arrangement. Yeah,

717
00:34:35,567 --> 00:34:37,567
Speaker 3: you're incentivized doing well.

718
00:34:37,887 --> 00:34:39,847
Speaker 2: So I think that what we're seeing here is that

719
00:34:39,927 --> 00:34:43,287
Speaker 2: every time Affleck is wobbly. He's suddenly with Garner a lot.

720
00:34:43,607 --> 00:34:47,007
Speaker 2: And I think that Ghana is like remember those famous

721
00:34:47,007 --> 00:34:49,367
Speaker 2: images of her that were allegedly her driving him to

722
00:34:49,407 --> 00:34:51,487
Speaker 2: rehab a few years ago. Maybe they've just got to

723
00:34:51,487 --> 00:34:53,847
Speaker 2: the shops. Who knows, but she's always there when things

724
00:34:53,927 --> 00:34:56,567
Speaker 2: go wobbly, because for exactly the reasons you said me

725
00:34:56,567 --> 00:34:58,647
Speaker 2: are so she's stepping in. But a lot of women

726
00:34:58,807 --> 00:35:02,047
Speaker 2: who are divorced or separated are like the man keeping

727
00:35:02,527 --> 00:35:05,647
Speaker 2: the mental load of your emotional wellbeing that I had

728
00:35:05,647 --> 00:35:07,407
Speaker 2: to take on while we were married. I still have

729
00:35:07,447 --> 00:35:09,527
Speaker 2: to take it on now. And I think that's Ganta.

730
00:35:09,607 --> 00:35:10,407
Speaker 2: What do you think, Amelily?

731
00:35:10,767 --> 00:35:13,807
Speaker 4: I find this fascinating. So is this something you've seen

732
00:35:13,847 --> 00:35:17,047
Speaker 4: in your lives? With divorced friends having to man.

733
00:35:16,927 --> 00:35:19,847
Speaker 2: Can absolutely where they're like, oh, thank God, I don't

734
00:35:19,847 --> 00:35:22,407
Speaker 2: have to deal with that anymore, And then they're like, oh,

735
00:35:22,527 --> 00:35:23,167
Speaker 2: but I do.

736
00:35:23,327 --> 00:35:26,447
Speaker 3: I only see it in my divorced friends whose ex

737
00:35:26,567 --> 00:35:28,927
Speaker 3: is a single, who've just broken up with Jaelo, who've

738
00:35:28,967 --> 00:35:31,127
Speaker 3: just broken up with ja Loo or their you know,

739
00:35:31,327 --> 00:35:34,807
Speaker 3: young girlfriend or whatever. The ones who've repartnered, usually with

740
00:35:35,007 --> 00:35:38,687
Speaker 3: much younger women, they're a fine. They're on their own lives.

741
00:35:39,407 --> 00:35:40,487
Speaker 3: It's another woman's.

742
00:35:40,167 --> 00:35:42,447
Speaker 2: Problem because now that woman is doing the man I

743
00:35:42,447 --> 00:35:45,487
Speaker 2: saw a friend the other day who's recently divorced, and

744
00:35:45,527 --> 00:35:47,727
Speaker 2: she was beaming from ear to ear and I said,

745
00:35:47,727 --> 00:35:49,687
Speaker 2: what's going on? She said, well, I've lost my job,

746
00:35:49,767 --> 00:35:54,007
Speaker 2: but it's okay because my ex has a girlfriend. And

747
00:35:54,047 --> 00:35:56,087
Speaker 2: she had to unpack for me why this was a

748
00:35:56,127 --> 00:35:59,287
Speaker 2: positive development. But I think that's exactly it. Why do

749
00:35:59,407 --> 00:36:02,047
Speaker 2: men need keeping? Do we think because obviously this is

750
00:36:02,087 --> 00:36:04,607
Speaker 2: a specific kind of ex situation, but they're saying that

751
00:36:04,647 --> 00:36:07,407
Speaker 2: man keeping is the fact that a woman is often

752
00:36:07,447 --> 00:36:10,167
Speaker 2: and this is obviously heterosexual relationship, but it could also

753
00:36:10,247 --> 00:36:12,287
Speaker 2: be your brother or you know, like somebody in your

754
00:36:12,287 --> 00:36:15,567
Speaker 2: life who's wobbling. You don't think women are always in

755
00:36:15,607 --> 00:36:17,127
Speaker 2: that role of having to be the king.

756
00:36:17,287 --> 00:36:20,607
Speaker 4: Like the chit up come on and a lated question

757
00:36:20,927 --> 00:36:24,007
Speaker 4: how charming is better? For how charming must he be

758
00:36:24,487 --> 00:36:27,367
Speaker 4: that all these women who have been presumably treated so

759
00:36:27,487 --> 00:36:30,167
Speaker 4: badly by him over the years stick by him. I

760
00:36:30,247 --> 00:36:32,367
Speaker 4: mean j Low still sticks by him.

761
00:36:33,127 --> 00:36:36,407
Speaker 3: Jennifer Garner famously said after they break up. I think

762
00:36:36,447 --> 00:36:39,127
Speaker 3: it's kind of been her only comment on that marriage.

763
00:36:39,167 --> 00:36:42,927
Speaker 3: She said, he shines the sun you know, it's very

764
00:36:42,967 --> 00:36:45,127
Speaker 3: warm when he's shining the sun on you, but it's

765
00:36:45,247 --> 00:36:49,087
Speaker 3: very cold in the shade. And I think that's probably

766
00:36:49,207 --> 00:36:51,807
Speaker 3: very true, and that he is clearly very charming, and

767
00:36:51,847 --> 00:36:56,607
Speaker 3: he's a delight, no doubt, but also the opposite of

768
00:36:56,647 --> 00:36:57,087
Speaker 3: a delight.

769
00:36:57,367 --> 00:36:59,807
Speaker 2: Well also, I mean, you still love somebody after you've

770
00:36:59,847 --> 00:37:02,727
Speaker 2: broken up, particularly if you do have family together. So

771
00:37:02,807 --> 00:37:05,167
Speaker 2: it's in her it's also in her interest and her

772
00:37:05,247 --> 00:37:08,527
Speaker 2: kids interest that he's okay. But this idea of mankeeping

773
00:37:08,647 --> 00:37:13,127
Speaker 2: is that it always is your responsibility somehow managing their emotions,

774
00:37:13,447 --> 00:37:14,327
Speaker 2: organizing help for them.

775
00:37:14,287 --> 00:37:15,767
Speaker 3: Should we get your doctor's appointment?

776
00:37:16,287 --> 00:37:17,927
Speaker 2: Do you think it's time for you to see a therapist?

777
00:37:18,087 --> 00:37:19,927
Speaker 3: I think a lot of daughters play that role in

778
00:37:19,967 --> 00:37:24,927
Speaker 3: their father's lives to adult daughters, because in my experience,

779
00:37:24,967 --> 00:37:29,087
Speaker 3: there's often a dynamic between a husband and wife that

780
00:37:29,287 --> 00:37:32,247
Speaker 3: a daughter can cut through because there's none of those

781
00:37:32,527 --> 00:37:36,807
Speaker 3: relationship dynamics that you have between romantic partners, and the

782
00:37:36,887 --> 00:37:39,487
Speaker 3: daughter can be the one that sits dad down and

783
00:37:39,607 --> 00:37:41,927
Speaker 3: is often sent as the envoy by the rest of

784
00:37:41,927 --> 00:37:45,567
Speaker 3: the family and often by the mother, to say, Dad,

785
00:37:45,927 --> 00:37:47,887
Speaker 3: you need to get that mole check. Dad, you need

786
00:37:47,927 --> 00:37:50,207
Speaker 3: to go to therapy. Dad, You've got to stop posting

787
00:37:50,207 --> 00:37:51,207
Speaker 3: those memes on faie.

788
00:37:51,847 --> 00:37:55,807
Speaker 2: I can't men look after themselves? Well, of course that

789
00:37:55,887 --> 00:37:57,087
Speaker 2: a big question, but on Monday.

790
00:37:57,127 --> 00:37:59,447
Speaker 3: That is a big question for Monday because it's I mean,

791
00:37:59,487 --> 00:38:02,567
Speaker 3: you know, in all seriousness, it's gender roles. And this

792
00:38:02,647 --> 00:38:05,647
Speaker 3: is the reason why in a society there are a

793
00:38:05,647 --> 00:38:09,007
Speaker 3: lot of advantagees to the society and the way society

794
00:38:09,007 --> 00:38:12,967
Speaker 3: works to have these traditional gender roles, because it's good

795
00:38:12,967 --> 00:38:16,567
Speaker 3: for the state, because you've got the women making sure

796
00:38:16,607 --> 00:38:20,847
Speaker 3: that the men are getting to the doctor, behaving, you know,

797
00:38:21,287 --> 00:38:24,527
Speaker 3: drinking too much, putting. You know, it's women as gatekeepers,

798
00:38:24,967 --> 00:38:28,167
Speaker 3: and so a lot of that kind of responsibility is

799
00:38:28,247 --> 00:38:30,967
Speaker 3: outsourced to women and always has been the job of caring.

800
00:38:31,447 --> 00:38:36,167
Speaker 4: Interestingly, Violet Affleck, their daughter, has become a public health advocate.

801
00:38:36,247 --> 00:38:36,967
Speaker 3: Have you seen this?

802
00:38:37,127 --> 00:38:41,287
Speaker 4: She as she's in a sense mankeeping for everyone because

803
00:38:41,327 --> 00:38:44,247
Speaker 4: she's advocating for more awareness around health issues.

804
00:38:44,327 --> 00:38:45,247
Speaker 3: I feel like I need.

805
00:38:45,127 --> 00:38:47,207
Speaker 2: To add an asterisk to this conversation that is like,

806
00:38:47,567 --> 00:38:50,727
Speaker 2: obviously we have no idea way. It's really a Jennifer

807
00:38:50,767 --> 00:38:56,167
Speaker 2: Garner's car. They to their private lives and all opinions

808
00:38:56,167 --> 00:38:57,287
Speaker 2: her expressed are our.

809
00:38:57,207 --> 00:39:01,927
Speaker 3: Own very out louders. Before we go, we are going

810
00:39:01,967 --> 00:39:04,367
Speaker 3: to start checking who's on top of the leaderboard in

811
00:39:04,447 --> 00:39:09,567
Speaker 3: terms of cities where tickets have been sold tour. Yeah,

812
00:39:10,247 --> 00:39:12,607
Speaker 3: we are touring the country well parts of it in

813
00:39:12,647 --> 00:39:15,327
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five so far. Guess who's on top of

814
00:39:15,367 --> 00:39:15,927
Speaker 3: the leaderboard.

815
00:39:16,327 --> 00:39:20,327
Speaker 2: Is it per It's perfay Firth Perth.

816
00:39:20,527 --> 00:39:23,127
Speaker 3: Eighty five percent of tickets are sold, which is lucky

817
00:39:23,167 --> 00:39:25,407
Speaker 3: because you complained a lot about us not coming to you,

818
00:39:25,767 --> 00:39:28,247
Speaker 3: and if we came to you and you didn't buy tickets,

819
00:39:28,567 --> 00:39:29,847
Speaker 3: we would be cranky.

820
00:39:30,287 --> 00:39:32,527
Speaker 2: We wouldn't be crying, we would actually, but.

821
00:39:32,527 --> 00:39:34,127
Speaker 3: We don't need to be because you are at the

822
00:39:34,127 --> 00:39:36,647
Speaker 3: top of the leaderboard. Mama Mere out loud Live. Doesn't

823
00:39:36,647 --> 00:39:37,607
Speaker 3: it sound like a fun tool.

824
00:39:38,327 --> 00:39:40,127
Speaker 2: He's going to tell you off when you get there.

825
00:39:40,287 --> 00:39:42,607
Speaker 2: You're going to get a stern talking to Tickets are

826
00:39:42,687 --> 00:39:44,647
Speaker 2: selling fast though I would at least if I didn't

827
00:39:44,647 --> 00:39:46,487
Speaker 2: say that, So make sure you go to.

828
00:39:46,927 --> 00:39:49,167
Speaker 3: It is the all or nothing Mama Mer out Loud

829
00:39:49,167 --> 00:39:52,247
Speaker 3: Live too, presented by Nivia's Cellular. There's a link in

830
00:39:52,287 --> 00:39:53,767
Speaker 3: the show notes to buy tickets.

831
00:39:54,127 --> 00:39:56,807
Speaker 2: Massive thank you out Louders, and to Amelia Lester for

832
00:39:56,887 --> 00:39:59,047
Speaker 2: filling in for Jesse today. Always a pleasure to have

833
00:39:59,127 --> 00:40:01,447
Speaker 2: you here, friend, and to all of you for listening

834
00:40:01,527 --> 00:40:03,447
Speaker 2: to the show and our fabulous team who put it together.

835
00:40:03,487 --> 00:40:04,927
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your hours tomorrow.

836
00:40:05,007 --> 00:40:07,967
Speaker 3: Gosh, we would have struggled explaining the American hair healthcare

837
00:40:08,007 --> 00:40:11,247
Speaker 3: system without a meal, haircare, wouldn't we or haircare? I

838
00:40:11,287 --> 00:40:13,407
Speaker 3: could have been okay. Or if we were discussing her

839
00:40:13,447 --> 00:40:16,367
Speaker 3: hair care, Oh my god, I can't even speak in sentences. Also,

840
00:40:16,967 --> 00:40:20,087
Speaker 3: as we're recording, Taylor Swift is performing her final concert,

841
00:40:20,127 --> 00:40:23,407
Speaker 3: speaking of is she pregnant? Has she frozen her eggs?

842
00:40:23,967 --> 00:40:25,087
Speaker 3: What's she going to announce?

843
00:40:25,607 --> 00:40:27,687
Speaker 2: Maybe she's just gonna say goodbye, thank you very much.

844
00:40:27,767 --> 00:40:31,767
Speaker 3: Maybe she will shout out to any MoMA Maya subscribers listening.

845
00:40:31,927 --> 00:40:34,207
Speaker 3: If you love the show and want to support us

846
00:40:34,247 --> 00:40:37,087
Speaker 3: as well, subscribing to Mama Maya is the very best

847
00:40:37,127 --> 00:40:38,887
Speaker 3: way to do so. There is a link in the

848
00:40:38,927 --> 00:40:39,847
Speaker 3: episode description