WEBVTT - The Murder That Broke A Detective 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:15.502 You're listening to a Mother and Mia podcast. Mama Mia 0:00:15.622 --> 0:00:19.422 acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast 0:00:19.622 --> 0:00:27.942 was recorded on It's nine AM on a Tuesday in 0:00:27.982 --> 0:00:30.982 October two thousand and one, and a Sydney nurse has 0:00:31.022 --> 0:00:33.662 just returned home after a night shift at a nearby hospital. 0:00:34.662 --> 0:00:37.222 Her eighteen year old son emerges from the house and 0:00:37.342 --> 0:00:41.022 tackles her to the ground. She manages to break free, 0:00:41.462 --> 0:00:43.982 but pretty soon her ex husband and her fifteen year 0:00:44.022 --> 0:00:48.142 old daughter join in. They drag her into the front yard, 0:00:48.622 --> 0:00:52.822 where the two men attack her with knives. Her ex 0:00:52.982 --> 0:00:55.502 screams at her that she is satan and that she's 0:00:55.542 --> 0:01:01.462 going to die. She does in broad daylight in her 0:01:01.502 --> 0:01:08.022 front garden while horrified neighbors watch on in shock. It 0:01:08.102 --> 0:01:11.582 also horrified the first responders who were on it, and 0:01:11.622 --> 0:01:14.222 it was the final straw for one of the detectives 0:01:14.222 --> 0:01:17.462 who worked closely on the case. It was a crime 0:01:17.702 --> 0:01:21.942 so horrible, so unimaginable, that after more than a decade 0:01:21.942 --> 0:01:25.782 in the force, Luke Taylor started to think about retirement. 0:01:26.782 --> 0:01:29.702 He credits this case as the one that started the 0:01:29.702 --> 0:01:45.342 whisper in his mind. I've had enough, I'm Jemma Bath 0:01:45.502 --> 0:01:48.902 and This is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 0:01:48.982 --> 0:01:52.302 exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 0:01:52.342 --> 0:01:55.942 people who know the most about them. For fourteen years, 0:01:56.102 --> 0:01:58.862 Luke worked across New South Wales investigating some of the 0:01:58.902 --> 0:02:03.982 most heinous crimes you can imagine, homicide, armed robbery, drugs, 0:02:04.342 --> 0:02:07.902 under cover work, child protection and sex crimes. He's done 0:02:07.942 --> 0:02:11.662 it all. As time went on, Luke's mental health began 0:02:11.742 --> 0:02:14.782 to suffer, until he eventually bowed out of the police 0:02:14.782 --> 0:02:18.302 force for good in two thousand and nine. Now he's 0:02:18.342 --> 0:02:21.262 a teacher, but he's found a way to combine his 0:02:21.382 --> 0:02:24.942 former career with his new profession in an experimental learning 0:02:24.942 --> 0:02:28.702 workshop called Crime Story, where he literally stages a crime 0:02:28.702 --> 0:02:32.462 scene for his students to solve. Luke joins us, now, 0:02:42.222 --> 0:02:45.382 Luke plunk me into your reality in the early two thousands, 0:02:45.422 --> 0:02:47.462 Where were you at in your life and career at 0:02:47.462 --> 0:02:48.302 that point. 0:02:48.542 --> 0:02:53.582 Early two thousands. I was in Cabramatta at the time, 0:02:53.622 --> 0:02:56.182 which was a very exciting place to work as a 0:02:56.182 --> 0:02:59.142 young police officer, young detective. A lot of action, a 0:02:59.142 --> 0:03:02.542 lot of drugs, a lot of violence, unfortunately, but I 0:03:02.542 --> 0:03:04.582 think that's the thing you'd drawn to initially, I know 0:03:04.702 --> 0:03:06.822 I was. It's the action you want to be working 0:03:06.822 --> 0:03:11.142 on big important cases. From there, I went a short 0:03:11.182 --> 0:03:15.062 spell at Windsor Police as a detective there and then 0:03:15.142 --> 0:03:17.542 moved to child protection sex crimes. 0:03:18.222 --> 0:03:20.622 So you'd already been in the force and particularly in 0:03:20.702 --> 0:03:23.942 detectives for quite a while by this point. Yes, Before 0:03:23.942 --> 0:03:25.782 we get into your involvement in this case, can you 0:03:25.862 --> 0:03:28.502 tell me a bit more about the family situation of 0:03:28.542 --> 0:03:31.342 a Sydney nurse who was killed outside her home in 0:03:31.382 --> 0:03:33.382 October two thousand and one. 0:03:33.622 --> 0:03:37.622 Yes, Well, we're aware that she had an AVO and 0:03:38.142 --> 0:03:42.822 there was a family breakdown. The young teenage daughter was 0:03:42.862 --> 0:03:46.902 still living at home with her and her strange husband, 0:03:47.062 --> 0:03:50.902 and her elder teenage son moved out, so they were 0:03:50.902 --> 0:03:55.742 living quite some distance away, and they were separated, and 0:03:56.382 --> 0:03:59.622 there were some ongoing interactions with them. Nothing that had 0:03:59.702 --> 0:04:03.982 really caused too much alarm at that stage. However, there 0:04:04.222 --> 0:04:08.702 was an AVO and as it turned out, another officer 0:04:08.822 --> 0:04:11.622 who I was working with, it's spoken to her probably 0:04:11.662 --> 0:04:14.222 a week or two before this incident, and she actually 0:04:14.262 --> 0:04:17.462 came into the police station and she said, look, he's 0:04:17.462 --> 0:04:19.582 going to kill me one day it's going to end 0:04:19.622 --> 0:04:19.942 like that. 0:04:21.302 --> 0:04:23.742 What can you tell us about the circumstances that led 0:04:23.822 --> 0:04:25.462 up to what happened to her, because it was quite 0:04:25.462 --> 0:04:29.462 a strange and evolving situation in the twelve hours before 0:04:29.502 --> 0:04:29.982 she died. 0:04:30.582 --> 0:04:34.982 Yes, well, the husband and the son, they lived in 0:04:35.062 --> 0:04:40.142 Katomber at the time, and look, they were heavy potsmokers. 0:04:40.542 --> 0:04:43.502 The effects that has on schizophrenia and different things like 0:04:43.542 --> 0:04:47.022 that is just absolutely incredible. So in that time they 0:04:47.022 --> 0:04:49.822 had been smoking and consumed a lot of pot, and 0:04:49.902 --> 0:04:54.822 there was a history of devil worshiping things like that. 0:04:55.622 --> 0:05:00.822 Somehow during the night they formed the belief that mum 0:05:00.822 --> 0:05:03.982 had died in a car accident or the ex wife 0:05:04.022 --> 0:05:06.982 had died in a car accident, and it was their 0:05:07.022 --> 0:05:11.102 responsibility to exercise the demon from her. 0:05:11.702 --> 0:05:14.702 It's just something you don't expect, right, like in a 0:05:14.782 --> 0:05:16.622 DV case. It's just kind of taking it to that 0:05:16.702 --> 0:05:19.022 whole other level of bizarre. 0:05:19.622 --> 0:05:21.822 We talk about, you know, once in a lifetime cases, 0:05:22.182 --> 0:05:24.982 and that's certainly one of them, and it's one that's 0:05:25.022 --> 0:05:28.582 lived with me and I know every other police officer 0:05:28.742 --> 0:05:32.342 that was involved in that particular case. It was absolutely 0:05:32.342 --> 0:05:35.662 horrendous the impact it had on them. And also, as 0:05:35.662 --> 0:05:39.222 we'll find out, the civilians who were also witnesses and 0:05:39.342 --> 0:05:42.222 involved in what actually transpired. 0:05:43.262 --> 0:05:46.102 Let's talk about that. Because the nurse, she was thirty 0:05:46.142 --> 0:05:48.222 five thirty five year old woman living in Sydney. She 0:05:48.342 --> 0:05:50.782 came home from a night shift, you know, around eight 0:05:50.862 --> 0:05:54.262 forty five nine am in the morning. What happened to her. 0:05:54.982 --> 0:05:57.542 So during the night the estrange husband and son had 0:05:57.582 --> 0:06:00.062 made their way down. They caught a train and it 0:06:00.102 --> 0:06:03.582 was quite a lengthy journey to get from Katoomba out 0:06:03.622 --> 0:06:07.502 to one of the northwestern suburbs, out past Windsor. They 0:06:07.542 --> 0:06:10.822 made their way down, arrived at the house and the 0:06:10.902 --> 0:06:14.662 daughter let them into the house. They explained the situation 0:06:14.782 --> 0:06:18.022 to her and the words that were basically used was 0:06:18.062 --> 0:06:23.622 that mum has died in a car accident and when she, 0:06:23.982 --> 0:06:26.982 or her we think might be her, comes home in 0:06:27.022 --> 0:06:30.622 the morning, it's actually not her, it's the devil and 0:06:30.662 --> 0:06:35.462 we have to exercise her. So they held some sort 0:06:35.502 --> 0:06:40.182 of cultish ritual in the house. There were glasses that 0:06:40.222 --> 0:06:43.982 were filled where wine. It was purported to be like 0:06:44.422 --> 0:06:48.222 drinking blood and things like that, and so they'd convinced 0:06:48.222 --> 0:06:51.142 her as well. So they were quite in a frenzy 0:06:51.422 --> 0:06:53.622 by this particular time. And then, like I said, about 0:06:53.622 --> 0:06:56.262 eight thirty in the morning, Mom has finished her shift 0:06:56.542 --> 0:07:00.422 at Westmeat Hospital and come home. As she's basically putting 0:07:00.422 --> 0:07:03.102 the key into the screen door or the front door 0:07:03.142 --> 0:07:05.382 to open there, they have just all three of them 0:07:05.462 --> 0:07:10.382 launched through the door, armed with kitchen knives and started 0:07:10.622 --> 0:07:15.542 stabbing and attacking her and chasing her. She was able 0:07:15.622 --> 0:07:21.302 to ring Triple O and throughout the next couple of 0:07:21.342 --> 0:07:25.022 minutes as she was chased over the road down the street, 0:07:25.782 --> 0:07:30.542 she was relaying what was actually happening. So she's run 0:07:30.542 --> 0:07:32.102 over the road. Now at the time, there's also a 0:07:32.102 --> 0:07:34.862 couple of young schoolgirls with their mum who were waiting 0:07:34.862 --> 0:07:36.702 to catch the bus to go to school. I think 0:07:36.702 --> 0:07:40.702 they were primary over daylight. It is, yeah, absolutely amazing, 0:07:40.862 --> 0:07:43.662 and they've run past her, run into the house over 0:07:43.702 --> 0:07:46.062 the road, tried to use the phone off the wall. 0:07:46.102 --> 0:07:48.462 They've chased her through into the backyard. They've ripped the 0:07:48.462 --> 0:07:51.702 phone off that wall in that house. They've chased her 0:07:51.702 --> 0:07:54.062 into the backyard. She's come around and ended up about 0:07:54.062 --> 0:07:57.542 another two houses down before they've eventually caught up with her. 0:07:58.102 --> 0:08:01.262 When we played this triple O call back. So this 0:08:01.462 --> 0:08:05.302 was going live and obviously the calls went over police radio. 0:08:05.742 --> 0:08:10.342 So we've head out there and when we played the 0:08:10.502 --> 0:08:14.342 tape back, I remember my boss at the time basically said, 0:08:14.862 --> 0:08:17.742 lock it away in the evidence cabinet. No one is 0:08:17.782 --> 0:08:20.422 to hear that tape again. It was just too intense, 0:08:20.542 --> 0:08:25.062 too intense, and obviously police, even though we're dealing with 0:08:25.782 --> 0:08:30.422 the trauma and horrible events, there is that curiosity as well, 0:08:30.822 --> 0:08:33.262 and there's a lot of people they said I'd like 0:08:33.342 --> 0:08:36.982 to hear that for whatever reason. And it's not morbid, 0:08:37.142 --> 0:08:39.382 it's not black. It's more the fact that I think 0:08:39.422 --> 0:08:42.862 it's the way we're wide. We're investigators. There's an unknown 0:08:42.942 --> 0:08:45.822 element and there is that fascination and it might be 0:08:45.942 --> 0:08:48.942 hard for listeners to understand that, but it's about understanding 0:08:49.022 --> 0:08:52.382 the processes. But our boss just said, not lock it away, 0:08:52.742 --> 0:08:55.142 that will be too traumatic for people to listen to. 0:08:56.782 --> 0:08:58.862 Well, you were one of the first on the scene, 0:08:58.902 --> 0:08:59.262 won't you. 0:08:59.862 --> 0:09:02.342 Yeah. It was interesting because I'd had an operation just 0:09:02.422 --> 0:09:05.542 recently and most of my office was actually at a 0:09:05.542 --> 0:09:08.662 district court matter for a previous matter over at Penrith, 0:09:08.862 --> 0:09:11.062 and not only just arrived at the station, and I 0:09:11.142 --> 0:09:13.622 just had the foot operations. I was sitting around with 0:09:13.662 --> 0:09:16.342 my foot in the moonboot. So the uniform guys were 0:09:16.422 --> 0:09:18.502 first off, and I've jumped in one of the cars 0:09:18.502 --> 0:09:21.862 and gone out there. When we've turned up, I remember 0:09:21.862 --> 0:09:25.302 the uniform guys when girls were there, they'd spray them 0:09:25.662 --> 0:09:29.582 with capsicum spray. They were standing around the body and 0:09:29.622 --> 0:09:35.342 they were chanting and words about Mephistopheles and biel Zabar 0:09:35.462 --> 0:09:41.342 Bobbi's devil references. They wouldn't leave her, and so they 0:09:41.422 --> 0:09:43.982 basically got sprayed and then chucked in the back of 0:09:43.982 --> 0:09:45.462 the paddy wagon. And even in the back of the 0:09:45.462 --> 0:09:47.822 paddy wagon and I've got that you could still hear 0:09:47.862 --> 0:09:54.142 them carrying on with this cultish devil stuff that they 0:09:54.222 --> 0:09:55.782 were sprouting. 0:09:56.782 --> 0:10:00.342 The outpouring of grief from her death. Can you describe 0:10:00.662 --> 0:10:02.822 that and what that was like to witness. 0:10:05.302 --> 0:10:08.022 Yeah, that was massive, and that's for me one of 0:10:08.022 --> 0:10:12.502 the big things that hit me. Because our coroner is 0:10:12.542 --> 0:10:16.382 at Westmead as Coiren is the aison officer, and the 0:10:16.382 --> 0:10:18.582 fact that I was on restricted duty had just made 0:10:18.582 --> 0:10:22.062 sense that I would go down for the autopsy, and 0:10:22.102 --> 0:10:24.542 because that was in the same hospital where she worked 0:10:25.382 --> 0:10:29.062 her colleagues and friends. They were gathered around and I've 0:10:29.102 --> 0:10:31.942 never felt anything like it. I have never to this 0:10:32.022 --> 0:10:36.022 day felt anything like it. And that outpouring of emotion. 0:10:36.302 --> 0:10:38.782 And then there was a service in the chapel at 0:10:38.782 --> 0:10:41.542 the hospital as well. They said, look, we're going to 0:10:41.582 --> 0:10:43.022 have a few minutes of service if you want to 0:10:43.022 --> 0:10:45.702 come up for that, and it was it was next level. 0:10:46.822 --> 0:10:49.982 This case is obviously horrible, but as a detective you 0:10:50.022 --> 0:10:53.902 were pretty used to horrible by this stage. What was 0:10:53.942 --> 0:10:58.062 it about this particular case that ultimately made you want 0:10:58.062 --> 0:11:00.542 to leave? Started that process for you of wanting to 0:11:00.622 --> 0:11:01.182 leave the job. 0:11:01.702 --> 0:11:04.222 A lot of it I actually put down to a 0:11:04.262 --> 0:11:08.262 communication barrier that in some ways I had built up. 0:11:08.302 --> 0:11:13.342 Like working in Cabramatta with Vietnamese populations, there was always 0:11:13.342 --> 0:11:16.342 a language barrier. Whilst you could see and feel grief 0:11:16.382 --> 0:11:20.702 and things, it never really had that same impact. Now 0:11:20.742 --> 0:11:24.462 I've never had anything with a family like this one right, 0:11:24.542 --> 0:11:27.182 which also played into it. But there was definitely some 0:11:27.262 --> 0:11:29.662 things where I was at a point even where I'm thinking, 0:11:29.662 --> 0:11:33.342 am I that cold? That I'm not actually feeling a 0:11:33.382 --> 0:11:35.902 lot of the stuff. I was almost robotic, And this 0:11:35.982 --> 0:11:38.582 is the cases before the cases before that, and also 0:11:39.262 --> 0:11:45.702 as coinnes Liason obviously meant oversighting, deceased murders, suicides, accidental deaths, 0:11:46.022 --> 0:11:49.862 natural deaths, overdoses, and maintaining that it was like well 0:11:49.862 --> 0:11:53.902 over one hundred a year, not all murders, and there 0:11:53.982 --> 0:11:56.062 is that coldness to it where you're putting on your 0:11:56.062 --> 0:11:58.702 hat and AKA, there's a process and you go through that, 0:11:58.742 --> 0:12:00.542 and I think that's what a lot of us do 0:12:01.022 --> 0:12:04.502 for survival. There's also a lot of gangland stuff that 0:12:04.582 --> 0:12:07.542 was going on, so there's a lot of retribution. It 0:12:07.582 --> 0:12:09.702 was all over the drugs. It was the heroin capital 0:12:09.702 --> 0:12:11.662 of basically the southern the hemisphere of the world at 0:12:11.662 --> 0:12:14.982 that stage, and there's a lot of gangland violence and 0:12:17.062 --> 0:12:20.502 didn't have that same emotional impact as when you have 0:12:20.702 --> 0:12:24.742 that family unit and kids involved, kids witnessing it, and 0:12:24.822 --> 0:12:27.582 this was just like a little suburban place where we 0:12:27.662 --> 0:12:30.262 all grow up from there. 0:12:30.782 --> 0:12:33.542 Once you'd had that big emotional reaction, did you find 0:12:33.582 --> 0:12:37.582 it harder to emotionally detach once you'd experienced that. 0:12:38.342 --> 0:12:41.902 I look back now and realize that for me, that 0:12:42.102 --> 0:12:48.182 was the start of basically the end. I started questioning myself, 0:12:48.262 --> 0:12:51.942 questioning life and purpose, and things like that and just 0:12:52.262 --> 0:12:55.542 not knowing. So yeah, I look back now, I can 0:12:55.582 --> 0:12:58.302 definitely say that was a turning point. 0:12:59.302 --> 0:13:01.902 This was a few years later that you actually ended 0:13:01.982 --> 0:13:04.902 up leaving, but you checked yourself into a mental health 0:13:04.902 --> 0:13:08.542 facility after retiring. Yeah, tell me about that decision. 0:13:09.302 --> 0:13:12.542 That actually came a bit late. So after that, I 0:13:12.582 --> 0:13:15.542 went to child protection and working with sex crimes, and 0:13:15.542 --> 0:13:19.302 again that was I got to the point where I'm 0:13:19.302 --> 0:13:25.182 looking around at so many people harming each other again, gangland, drugs, 0:13:25.222 --> 0:13:28.502 things like that, and I'm thinking, what purpose am I serving? 0:13:28.702 --> 0:13:31.462 Who am I helping? And I thought I looked around 0:13:31.502 --> 0:13:34.782 and I thought this would be cool. I went into 0:13:34.822 --> 0:13:38.142 it with such a little idea, and I remember when 0:13:38.142 --> 0:13:40.782 I went for the interview for Child Protection and the 0:13:40.822 --> 0:13:43.702 superintendent she said, what do you know about our unit? 0:13:44.822 --> 0:13:47.702 Basically said, I you investigate, you deal with kids. Do 0:13:47.742 --> 0:13:51.222 you know anymore? Nope, there's only the fact that I 0:13:51.302 --> 0:13:53.942 had a little bit of experience as a detective. And 0:13:53.982 --> 0:13:57.582 they said, okay, come on in. And I fell in 0:13:57.582 --> 0:14:00.142 love with it, particularly working with teenagers. It just loved it. 0:14:00.182 --> 0:14:02.022 I had a couple of step kids the same age, 0:14:02.742 --> 0:14:05.822 and I was just attracted to that helping these kids 0:14:06.102 --> 0:14:08.182 that you get kids who perhaps no one believes them 0:14:08.182 --> 0:14:11.102 they're victims in their home, different things and actually see 0:14:11.142 --> 0:14:14.502 you would and feel you're actually doing something, And that 0:14:14.582 --> 0:14:16.262 was good for a while. I had my daughter around 0:14:16.262 --> 0:14:18.422 about that time as well. And then you have those 0:14:18.422 --> 0:14:21.782 obvious implications where you're raising a kid and you're going 0:14:21.782 --> 0:14:23.702 to work and you're seeing abused kids and then the 0:14:23.742 --> 0:14:26.062 same age as your little girl when you're going home. 0:14:26.142 --> 0:14:28.982 So and that just kept building, I suppose, and then 0:14:29.022 --> 0:14:31.342 you reached a point where you just wake up one 0:14:31.342 --> 0:14:34.222 morning and you just can't do it. 0:14:34.302 --> 0:14:36.142 Was it taboo for you to go to a mental 0:14:36.182 --> 0:14:37.422 health facility as a detective? 0:14:38.422 --> 0:14:42.182 I think I was on the crossover when we went 0:14:42.222 --> 0:14:45.502 to child protection. We used to have quarterly psych appointments, 0:14:46.542 --> 0:14:49.902 and I was showing signs and I got to the 0:14:49.942 --> 0:14:54.342 point where I was talking very openly to the psychologist 0:14:54.582 --> 0:14:57.262 or counselor that we were sent to, showing a lot 0:14:57.262 --> 0:14:59.942 of signs. I raised this with the police Medical Officer 0:14:59.942 --> 0:15:04.182 of the PMO. Unfortunately, I still don't think they treated 0:15:04.222 --> 0:15:07.862 it as well as they perhaps do now and understand that, 0:15:08.502 --> 0:15:10.942 and they sent me back in the field. They said, nah, 0:15:10.942 --> 0:15:13.382 you're good. It's good to be angry and let you 0:15:14.142 --> 0:15:15.862 and act the way you are, and here's your gun off. 0:15:15.902 --> 0:15:18.222 You go go back to work and I think, oh, yeah, 0:15:18.262 --> 0:15:21.742 I knew something was wrong, and I had a couple 0:15:21.782 --> 0:15:23.262 of times. I took a bit of time off work, 0:15:23.262 --> 0:15:25.542 I went back a little bit more time, and in 0:15:25.582 --> 0:15:29.782 the end, it just absolutely cracked and basically couldn't even 0:15:29.822 --> 0:15:33.422 leave the house. And that took years. I think in 0:15:33.462 --> 0:15:35.982 the end, I'd had to retell my story to about 0:15:35.982 --> 0:15:40.742 eighteen different shrinks, such as the process. It's not an 0:15:40.782 --> 0:15:43.982 easy process, and that's a difficult thing, and you're constantly 0:15:44.022 --> 0:15:50.582 being put under under examination, not just by medicos but 0:15:50.662 --> 0:15:54.142 every party who's involved, and it's like they're testing you 0:15:54.622 --> 0:15:56.702 to see if you can come back or you can't 0:15:56.702 --> 0:15:59.382 come back. There's a lot of harassment as well that 0:15:59.462 --> 0:16:01.382 went on. They didn't handle it really well, and my 0:16:01.462 --> 0:16:04.182 own doctor had to basically send him a letter saying, listen, 0:16:04.502 --> 0:16:07.822 you've got to give this guy some space, just back 0:16:07.862 --> 0:16:11.582 off everything. It was probably about a month to two 0:16:11.702 --> 0:16:14.262 year process to actually get out of the police, and 0:16:14.262 --> 0:16:19.502 in that time, constantly revisiting and going through weekly, sometimes 0:16:19.582 --> 0:16:23.342 twice weekly, appointments, medication, and then I was out of 0:16:23.382 --> 0:16:26.942 the police. So once I was officially out, but it 0:16:27.022 --> 0:16:29.382 was in a couple of years later I realized there 0:16:29.422 --> 0:16:31.702 was so much stuff that I hadn't properly dealt with. 0:16:31.742 --> 0:16:36.102 Even though I'd been so studious and hard working with 0:16:36.262 --> 0:16:39.302 my sic and going through stuff, there was still some 0:16:39.342 --> 0:16:43.622 stuff that just came back, and that bit me on 0:16:43.662 --> 0:16:46.542 the backside harder what I thought, because here I'm thinking, okay, 0:16:46.542 --> 0:16:50.262 I've put that side apart, and of all things. It 0:16:50.342 --> 0:16:52.622 was a few years later I got a phone call 0:16:52.742 --> 0:16:58.022 from headquarters in town saying, I'm going through your file here. 0:16:58.222 --> 0:17:01.982 You're an ex police. I said, yep, and we've got 0:17:02.022 --> 0:17:05.622 like your ten or fifteen year service medal that we 0:17:05.702 --> 0:17:07.902 have to present to you, but as a mark on 0:17:07.942 --> 0:17:13.342 your file it says don't ever contact because of PTSD 0:17:13.502 --> 0:17:16.582 and it's triggering. I said, okay, yep, And they said, 0:17:16.582 --> 0:17:19.182 do you want to come to a ceremony and receive it? 0:17:19.342 --> 0:17:20.822 And I said, stick it in the mail. 0:17:23.422 --> 0:17:26.262 It really sounds like they didn't treat you. Because you 0:17:26.302 --> 0:17:30.302 can't be the only police officer or detective that experiences 0:17:30.342 --> 0:17:32.542 mental health struggles in this job. It is one of 0:17:32.622 --> 0:17:36.462 the hardest jobs that a person can do, and to 0:17:36.542 --> 0:17:38.942 hear what you had to do to actually get support 0:17:39.102 --> 0:17:39.702 is insane. 0:17:40.502 --> 0:17:44.742 It is. Yeah, And I don't want to bag the police. 0:17:44.822 --> 0:17:47.742 I absolutely love the police and I could see myself 0:17:47.782 --> 0:17:50.142 doing nothing else but the police from when I joined 0:17:50.182 --> 0:17:52.182 and I'm at a stage now I've come full circle 0:17:52.222 --> 0:17:54.702 and I can appreciate it. I just think that we're 0:17:54.822 --> 0:17:58.742 constantly learning and evolving. And I'm also a big believer 0:17:58.822 --> 0:18:02.622 that every single job, every single walk of life has 0:18:02.662 --> 0:18:05.422 its own pressure points. I've got a brother who's a 0:18:05.462 --> 0:18:09.422 subcontractor in the construction industry. When a job finishes, he 0:18:09.422 --> 0:18:12.222 doesn't know where his next job. Now, that's pressure as 0:18:12.222 --> 0:18:15.862 opposed to all weekly paycheck. I see mums with pressures 0:18:15.902 --> 0:18:18.822 of having a baby, holding a house together, doing things 0:18:18.822 --> 0:18:22.702 like everything has their own pressure points. As a society, 0:18:23.382 --> 0:18:25.342 we're still learning and we're going to be learning forever 0:18:25.382 --> 0:18:27.142 with this. And my old adage is, if you've got 0:18:27.142 --> 0:18:29.502 a broken leg, you go to a doctor. I've got 0:18:29.502 --> 0:18:31.902 a broken brain, I go to a doctor. It's the 0:18:31.942 --> 0:18:33.542 same thing. To look at that now, But no, we 0:18:33.542 --> 0:18:35.262 weren't good at handling it. We were coming out of 0:18:35.262 --> 0:18:38.782 the dark ages. We'd had the nineteen ninety four Royal 0:18:38.822 --> 0:18:42.422 Commission into corruption, things were changing in the police that 0:18:42.422 --> 0:18:45.102 they were realizing there were so many hardships that weren't 0:18:45.142 --> 0:18:47.622 dealt with. A lot of that was following up on 0:18:47.822 --> 0:18:52.302 a lot of the military investigations and the military research 0:18:52.382 --> 0:18:56.102 that had been done with post traumatic stress. I think 0:18:56.142 --> 0:19:01.302 for a long time, civilian peacekeeping like police was overlooked 0:19:01.662 --> 0:19:05.382 because it doesn't have perhaps it doesn't seem to have 0:19:05.422 --> 0:19:08.942 the same horrors as standing on a battlefield that the 0:19:09.022 --> 0:19:13.622 soldiers have. But what we've learned in the reality is 0:19:13.662 --> 0:19:16.942 that the police are actually in that position every day, 0:19:17.702 --> 0:19:20.062 and there's also the fear of it. Again, we talk 0:19:20.102 --> 0:19:22.742 about domestic violence a lot because to me, that's like terrorism. 0:19:22.822 --> 0:19:25.662 It's the fear of what can happen next. Policing is 0:19:25.702 --> 0:19:28.982 a lot like that military conflicts. Some people may do 0:19:29.062 --> 0:19:30.942 a career in the military not actually go to a 0:19:30.942 --> 0:19:33.942 hot zone. So we started to become a little bit 0:19:33.982 --> 0:19:35.582 more aware of that and deal with it and put 0:19:35.622 --> 0:19:38.702 those things into place, and again we're continuing to grow. Now. 0:19:38.742 --> 0:19:41.182 I know the police stations and patrols now are actually 0:19:41.582 --> 0:19:44.942 getting to the point where they're assigning a station counselor 0:19:45.062 --> 0:19:49.462 or psychologist who you can actually go to. That's great. 0:19:49.622 --> 0:19:51.582 We've got to keep putting those things, but it's going 0:19:51.622 --> 0:19:55.702 to be time before each individual can say I'm not 0:19:55.782 --> 0:19:59.222 afraid to walk through that door and have people see 0:19:59.262 --> 0:20:02.222 me do that, because that matter about the nurse that 0:20:02.262 --> 0:20:06.822 we're talking about. After that incident, the police response was 0:20:07.622 --> 0:20:09.462 we better do a welfare check and send out a 0:20:09.502 --> 0:20:13.222 counselor everyone involved. There may have been twenty or thirty 0:20:13.222 --> 0:20:17.222 police involved, basically everyone on that day. They turn around 0:20:17.262 --> 0:20:19.982 and say, are we're doing it about midday on Saturday? 0:20:21.422 --> 0:20:24.502 Once we're not working that day. We're not paying you 0:20:24.542 --> 0:20:29.302 to come in. It's voluntary, so it's minimal staffing on 0:20:29.342 --> 0:20:31.982 that Saturday. Anyway, everyone came in. We sat in this 0:20:31.982 --> 0:20:35.702 big room. Council sits in the middle. Now we've got 0:20:35.742 --> 0:20:39.302 like the toughest thirty year veterans sitting there. Everyone's got 0:20:39.302 --> 0:20:42.542 their arms crossed, you know, assuming this pose, and this 0:20:42.622 --> 0:20:44.942 lovely council sits in the middle and says, must have 0:20:44.982 --> 0:20:47.582 been traumatic. You'd like to share their feelings? 0:20:47.662 --> 0:20:51.062 Oh gosh, in a room full of your colleagues. 0:20:50.662 --> 0:20:53.102 And there's everyone there from a first year constable to 0:20:53.142 --> 0:20:57.862 a thirty year veteran, and you've still got that vibe 0:20:57.942 --> 0:21:01.702 that I'll deal with it myself and I'm not going 0:21:01.742 --> 0:21:04.662 to blurt out in front of everyone how I actually feel. 0:21:05.062 --> 0:21:05.942 It was just. 0:21:06.702 --> 0:21:09.662 So awkward, So they meant, well, they just weren't doing 0:21:09.702 --> 0:21:10.422 it in the right way. 0:21:10.782 --> 0:21:14.262 Yeah, and a lot of those measures, there's massive gaps 0:21:14.302 --> 0:21:16.502 in it, Like the quarterly appointments that I used to 0:21:16.542 --> 0:21:19.182 go to for when I was in child protection. There 0:21:19.222 --> 0:21:21.582 was one day I remember basically on my knees and 0:21:21.622 --> 0:21:26.182 I'm crying talking to this counselor, and I say, this 0:21:26.222 --> 0:21:28.782 is about the fifth appointment in a row that I've 0:21:28.822 --> 0:21:31.102 told you how I'm feeling and what's going on. I said, 0:21:31.942 --> 0:21:32.782 are they listening? 0:21:34.262 --> 0:21:37.622 Timing wise, we're talking about the mid to late two thousands, 0:21:37.862 --> 0:21:41.702 So I would hope that in twenty twenty four the 0:21:41.742 --> 0:21:43.662 processes look a bit better. I know that you haven't 0:21:43.702 --> 0:21:45.462 been in the cops for a while, but from what 0:21:45.502 --> 0:21:47.382 you've seen, is it improving? 0:21:48.182 --> 0:21:50.142 Yeah? Well, I still keep in contact with a number 0:21:50.182 --> 0:21:51.822 of colleagues, and I say, that's where I heard that 0:21:51.862 --> 0:21:54.022 they are trying to put in if they haven't already 0:21:55.022 --> 0:22:00.342 counselors or health professionals at a station basis, and that 0:22:00.382 --> 0:22:00.782 would be. 0:22:00.702 --> 0:22:03.302 Greatly one on one, not in a group. 0:22:03.502 --> 0:22:06.182 Not in a group. But again it's that stigma of 0:22:06.662 --> 0:22:08.582 like it would be almost be putting an office in 0:22:08.622 --> 0:22:10.942 the middle of the police station with this big red door. 0:22:11.422 --> 0:22:13.502 You go into that and people are all gonna be going, oh, 0:22:13.582 --> 0:22:16.102 what's wrong with him? What's wrong with her? They got 0:22:16.102 --> 0:22:18.622 head noises? That was always expression. Now you've got head noises, 0:22:19.662 --> 0:22:22.702 and you hear people talk about our billy blogs. I 0:22:22.782 --> 0:22:25.542 don't think you'll ever be back. And then someone would 0:22:25.782 --> 0:22:30.062 return from long term sick and I remember thinking it 0:22:30.102 --> 0:22:33.782 was like a disease. It was a mystery, and it 0:22:33.822 --> 0:22:37.542 was really hard, and people were awkward around them as well. 0:22:37.702 --> 0:22:40.542 It's just yeah, it was treated like we don't want 0:22:40.542 --> 0:22:43.382 to catch that. You just had to put up this 0:22:43.622 --> 0:22:48.982