1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:15,502 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother and Mia podcast. Mama Mia 2 00:00:15,622 --> 00:00:19,422 Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast 3 00:00:19,622 --> 00:00:27,942 Speaker 1: was recorded on It's nine AM on a Tuesday in 4 00:00:27,982 --> 00:00:30,982 Speaker 1: October two thousand and one, and a Sydney nurse has 5 00:00:31,022 --> 00:00:33,662 Speaker 1: just returned home after a night shift at a nearby hospital. 6 00:00:34,662 --> 00:00:37,222 Speaker 1: Her eighteen year old son emerges from the house and 7 00:00:37,342 --> 00:00:41,022 Speaker 1: tackles her to the ground. She manages to break free, 8 00:00:41,462 --> 00:00:43,982 Speaker 1: but pretty soon her ex husband and her fifteen year 9 00:00:44,022 --> 00:00:48,142 Speaker 1: old daughter join in. They drag her into the front yard, 10 00:00:48,622 --> 00:00:52,822 Speaker 1: where the two men attack her with knives. Her ex 11 00:00:52,982 --> 00:00:55,502 Speaker 1: screams at her that she is satan and that she's 12 00:00:55,542 --> 00:01:01,462 Speaker 1: going to die. She does in broad daylight in her 13 00:01:01,502 --> 00:01:08,022 Speaker 1: front garden while horrified neighbors watch on in shock. It 14 00:01:08,102 --> 00:01:11,582 Speaker 1: also horrified the first responders who were on it, and 15 00:01:11,622 --> 00:01:14,222 Speaker 1: it was the final straw for one of the detectives 16 00:01:14,222 --> 00:01:17,462 Speaker 1: who worked closely on the case. It was a crime 17 00:01:17,702 --> 00:01:21,942 Speaker 1: so horrible, so unimaginable, that after more than a decade 18 00:01:21,942 --> 00:01:25,782 Speaker 1: in the force, Luke Taylor started to think about retirement. 19 00:01:26,782 --> 00:01:29,702 Speaker 1: He credits this case as the one that started the 20 00:01:29,702 --> 00:01:45,342 Speaker 1: whisper in his mind. I've had enough, I'm Jemma Bath 21 00:01:45,502 --> 00:01:48,902 Speaker 1: and This is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 22 00:01:48,982 --> 00:01:52,302 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 23 00:01:52,342 --> 00:01:55,942 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. For fourteen years, 24 00:01:56,102 --> 00:01:58,862 Speaker 1: Luke worked across New South Wales investigating some of the 25 00:01:58,902 --> 00:02:03,982 Speaker 1: most heinous crimes you can imagine, homicide, armed robbery, drugs, 26 00:02:04,342 --> 00:02:07,902 Speaker 1: under cover work, child protection and sex crimes. He's done 27 00:02:07,942 --> 00:02:11,662 Speaker 1: it all. As time went on, Luke's mental health began 28 00:02:11,742 --> 00:02:14,782 Speaker 1: to suffer, until he eventually bowed out of the police 29 00:02:14,782 --> 00:02:18,302 Speaker 1: force for good in two thousand and nine. Now he's 30 00:02:18,342 --> 00:02:21,262 Speaker 1: a teacher, but he's found a way to combine his 31 00:02:21,382 --> 00:02:24,942 Speaker 1: former career with his new profession in an experimental learning 32 00:02:24,942 --> 00:02:28,702 Speaker 1: workshop called Crime Story, where he literally stages a crime 33 00:02:28,702 --> 00:02:32,462 Speaker 1: scene for his students to solve. Luke joins us, now, 34 00:02:42,222 --> 00:02:45,382 Speaker 1: Luke plunk me into your reality in the early two thousands, 35 00:02:45,422 --> 00:02:47,462 Speaker 1: Where were you at in your life and career at 36 00:02:47,462 --> 00:02:48,302 Speaker 1: that point. 37 00:02:48,542 --> 00:02:53,582 Speaker 2: Early two thousands. I was in Cabramatta at the time, 38 00:02:53,622 --> 00:02:56,182 Speaker 2: which was a very exciting place to work as a 39 00:02:56,182 --> 00:02:59,142 Speaker 2: young police officer, young detective. A lot of action, a 40 00:02:59,142 --> 00:03:02,542 Speaker 2: lot of drugs, a lot of violence, unfortunately, but I 41 00:03:02,542 --> 00:03:04,582 Speaker 2: think that's the thing you'd drawn to initially, I know 42 00:03:04,702 --> 00:03:06,822 Speaker 2: I was. It's the action you want to be working 43 00:03:06,822 --> 00:03:11,142 Speaker 2: on big important cases. From there, I went a short 44 00:03:11,182 --> 00:03:15,062 Speaker 2: spell at Windsor Police as a detective there and then 45 00:03:15,142 --> 00:03:17,542 Speaker 2: moved to child protection sex crimes. 46 00:03:18,222 --> 00:03:20,622 Speaker 1: So you'd already been in the force and particularly in 47 00:03:20,702 --> 00:03:23,942 Speaker 1: detectives for quite a while by this point. Yes, Before 48 00:03:23,942 --> 00:03:25,782 Speaker 1: we get into your involvement in this case, can you 49 00:03:25,862 --> 00:03:28,502 Speaker 1: tell me a bit more about the family situation of 50 00:03:28,542 --> 00:03:31,342 Speaker 1: a Sydney nurse who was killed outside her home in 51 00:03:31,382 --> 00:03:33,382 Speaker 1: October two thousand and one. 52 00:03:33,622 --> 00:03:37,622 Speaker 2: Yes, Well, we're aware that she had an AVO and 53 00:03:38,142 --> 00:03:42,822 Speaker 2: there was a family breakdown. The young teenage daughter was 54 00:03:42,862 --> 00:03:46,902 Speaker 2: still living at home with her and her strange husband, 55 00:03:47,062 --> 00:03:50,902 Speaker 2: and her elder teenage son moved out, so they were 56 00:03:50,902 --> 00:03:55,742 Speaker 2: living quite some distance away, and they were separated, and 57 00:03:56,382 --> 00:03:59,622 Speaker 2: there were some ongoing interactions with them. Nothing that had 58 00:03:59,702 --> 00:04:03,982 Speaker 2: really caused too much alarm at that stage. However, there 59 00:04:04,222 --> 00:04:08,702 Speaker 2: was an AVO and as it turned out, another officer 60 00:04:08,822 --> 00:04:11,622 Speaker 2: who I was working with, it's spoken to her probably 61 00:04:11,662 --> 00:04:14,222 Speaker 2: a week or two before this incident, and she actually 62 00:04:14,262 --> 00:04:17,462 Speaker 2: came into the police station and she said, look, he's 63 00:04:17,462 --> 00:04:19,582 Speaker 2: going to kill me one day it's going to end 64 00:04:19,622 --> 00:04:19,942 Speaker 2: like that. 65 00:04:21,302 --> 00:04:23,742 Speaker 1: What can you tell us about the circumstances that led 66 00:04:23,822 --> 00:04:25,462 Speaker 1: up to what happened to her, because it was quite 67 00:04:25,462 --> 00:04:29,462 Speaker 1: a strange and evolving situation in the twelve hours before 68 00:04:29,502 --> 00:04:29,982 Speaker 1: she died. 69 00:04:30,582 --> 00:04:34,982 Speaker 2: Yes, well, the husband and the son, they lived in 70 00:04:35,062 --> 00:04:40,142 Speaker 2: Katomber at the time, and look, they were heavy potsmokers. 71 00:04:40,542 --> 00:04:43,502 Speaker 2: The effects that has on schizophrenia and different things like 72 00:04:43,542 --> 00:04:47,022 Speaker 2: that is just absolutely incredible. So in that time they 73 00:04:47,022 --> 00:04:49,822 Speaker 2: had been smoking and consumed a lot of pot, and 74 00:04:49,902 --> 00:04:54,822 Speaker 2: there was a history of devil worshiping things like that. 75 00:04:55,622 --> 00:05:00,822 Speaker 2: Somehow during the night they formed the belief that mum 76 00:05:00,822 --> 00:05:03,982 Speaker 2: had died in a car accident or the ex wife 77 00:05:04,022 --> 00:05:06,982 Speaker 2: had died in a car accident, and it was their 78 00:05:07,022 --> 00:05:11,102 Speaker 2: responsibility to exercise the demon from her. 79 00:05:11,702 --> 00:05:14,702 Speaker 1: It's just something you don't expect, right, like in a 80 00:05:14,782 --> 00:05:16,622 Speaker 1: DV case. It's just kind of taking it to that 81 00:05:16,702 --> 00:05:19,022 Speaker 1: whole other level of bizarre. 82 00:05:19,622 --> 00:05:21,822 Speaker 2: We talk about, you know, once in a lifetime cases, 83 00:05:22,182 --> 00:05:24,982 Speaker 2: and that's certainly one of them, and it's one that's 84 00:05:25,022 --> 00:05:28,582 Speaker 2: lived with me and I know every other police officer 85 00:05:28,742 --> 00:05:32,342 Speaker 2: that was involved in that particular case. It was absolutely 86 00:05:32,342 --> 00:05:35,662 Speaker 2: horrendous the impact it had on them. And also, as 87 00:05:35,662 --> 00:05:39,222 Speaker 2: we'll find out, the civilians who were also witnesses and 88 00:05:39,342 --> 00:05:42,222 Speaker 2: involved in what actually transpired. 89 00:05:43,262 --> 00:05:46,102 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. Because the nurse, she was thirty 90 00:05:46,142 --> 00:05:48,222 Speaker 1: five thirty five year old woman living in Sydney. She 91 00:05:48,342 --> 00:05:50,782 Speaker 1: came home from a night shift, you know, around eight 92 00:05:50,862 --> 00:05:54,262 Speaker 1: forty five nine am in the morning. What happened to her. 93 00:05:54,982 --> 00:05:57,542 Speaker 2: So during the night the estrange husband and son had 94 00:05:57,582 --> 00:06:00,062 Speaker 2: made their way down. They caught a train and it 95 00:06:00,102 --> 00:06:03,582 Speaker 2: was quite a lengthy journey to get from Katoomba out 96 00:06:03,622 --> 00:06:07,502 Speaker 2: to one of the northwestern suburbs, out past Windsor. They 97 00:06:07,542 --> 00:06:10,822 Speaker 2: made their way down, arrived at the house and the 98 00:06:10,902 --> 00:06:14,662 Speaker 2: daughter let them into the house. They explained the situation 99 00:06:14,782 --> 00:06:18,022 Speaker 2: to her and the words that were basically used was 100 00:06:18,062 --> 00:06:23,622 Speaker 2: that mum has died in a car accident and when she, 101 00:06:23,982 --> 00:06:26,982 Speaker 2: or her we think might be her, comes home in 102 00:06:27,022 --> 00:06:30,622 Speaker 2: the morning, it's actually not her, it's the devil and 103 00:06:30,662 --> 00:06:35,462 Speaker 2: we have to exercise her. So they held some sort 104 00:06:35,502 --> 00:06:40,182 Speaker 2: of cultish ritual in the house. There were glasses that 105 00:06:40,222 --> 00:06:43,982 Speaker 2: were filled where wine. It was purported to be like 106 00:06:44,422 --> 00:06:48,222 Speaker 2: drinking blood and things like that, and so they'd convinced 107 00:06:48,222 --> 00:06:51,142 Speaker 2: her as well. So they were quite in a frenzy 108 00:06:51,422 --> 00:06:53,622 Speaker 2: by this particular time. And then, like I said, about 109 00:06:53,622 --> 00:06:56,262 Speaker 2: eight thirty in the morning, Mom has finished her shift 110 00:06:56,542 --> 00:07:00,422 Speaker 2: at Westmeat Hospital and come home. As she's basically putting 111 00:07:00,422 --> 00:07:03,102 Speaker 2: the key into the screen door or the front door 112 00:07:03,142 --> 00:07:05,382 Speaker 2: to open there, they have just all three of them 113 00:07:05,462 --> 00:07:10,382 Speaker 2: launched through the door, armed with kitchen knives and started 114 00:07:10,622 --> 00:07:15,542 Speaker 2: stabbing and attacking her and chasing her. She was able 115 00:07:15,622 --> 00:07:21,302 Speaker 2: to ring Triple O and throughout the next couple of 116 00:07:21,342 --> 00:07:25,022 Speaker 2: minutes as she was chased over the road down the street, 117 00:07:25,782 --> 00:07:30,542 Speaker 2: she was relaying what was actually happening. So she's run 118 00:07:30,542 --> 00:07:32,102 Speaker 2: over the road. Now at the time, there's also a 119 00:07:32,102 --> 00:07:34,862 Speaker 2: couple of young schoolgirls with their mum who were waiting 120 00:07:34,862 --> 00:07:36,702 Speaker 2: to catch the bus to go to school. I think 121 00:07:36,702 --> 00:07:40,702 Speaker 2: they were primary over daylight. It is, yeah, absolutely amazing, 122 00:07:40,862 --> 00:07:43,662 Speaker 2: and they've run past her, run into the house over 123 00:07:43,702 --> 00:07:46,062 Speaker 2: the road, tried to use the phone off the wall. 124 00:07:46,102 --> 00:07:48,462 Speaker 2: They've chased her through into the backyard. They've ripped the 125 00:07:48,462 --> 00:07:51,702 Speaker 2: phone off that wall in that house. They've chased her 126 00:07:51,702 --> 00:07:54,062 Speaker 2: into the backyard. She's come around and ended up about 127 00:07:54,062 --> 00:07:57,542 Speaker 2: another two houses down before they've eventually caught up with her. 128 00:07:58,102 --> 00:08:01,262 Speaker 2: When we played this triple O call back. So this 129 00:08:01,462 --> 00:08:05,302 Speaker 2: was going live and obviously the calls went over police radio. 130 00:08:05,742 --> 00:08:10,342 Speaker 2: So we've head out there and when we played the 131 00:08:10,502 --> 00:08:14,342 Speaker 2: tape back, I remember my boss at the time basically said, 132 00:08:14,862 --> 00:08:17,742 Speaker 2: lock it away in the evidence cabinet. No one is 133 00:08:17,782 --> 00:08:20,422 Speaker 2: to hear that tape again. It was just too intense, 134 00:08:20,542 --> 00:08:25,062 Speaker 2: too intense, and obviously police, even though we're dealing with 135 00:08:25,782 --> 00:08:30,422 Speaker 2: the trauma and horrible events, there is that curiosity as well, 136 00:08:30,822 --> 00:08:33,262 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of people they said I'd like 137 00:08:33,342 --> 00:08:36,982 Speaker 2: to hear that for whatever reason. And it's not morbid, 138 00:08:37,142 --> 00:08:39,382 Speaker 2: it's not black. It's more the fact that I think 139 00:08:39,422 --> 00:08:42,862 Speaker 2: it's the way we're wide. We're investigators. There's an unknown 140 00:08:42,942 --> 00:08:45,822 Speaker 2: element and there is that fascination and it might be 141 00:08:45,942 --> 00:08:48,942 Speaker 2: hard for listeners to understand that, but it's about understanding 142 00:08:49,022 --> 00:08:52,382 Speaker 2: the processes. But our boss just said, not lock it away, 143 00:08:52,742 --> 00:08:55,142 Speaker 2: that will be too traumatic for people to listen to. 144 00:08:56,782 --> 00:08:58,862 Speaker 1: Well, you were one of the first on the scene, 145 00:08:58,902 --> 00:08:59,262 Speaker 1: won't you. 146 00:08:59,862 --> 00:09:02,342 Speaker 2: Yeah. It was interesting because I'd had an operation just 147 00:09:02,422 --> 00:09:05,542 Speaker 2: recently and most of my office was actually at a 148 00:09:05,542 --> 00:09:08,662 Speaker 2: district court matter for a previous matter over at Penrith, 149 00:09:08,862 --> 00:09:11,062 Speaker 2: and not only just arrived at the station, and I 150 00:09:11,142 --> 00:09:13,622 Speaker 2: just had the foot operations. I was sitting around with 151 00:09:13,662 --> 00:09:16,342 Speaker 2: my foot in the moonboot. So the uniform guys were 152 00:09:16,422 --> 00:09:18,502 Speaker 2: first off, and I've jumped in one of the cars 153 00:09:18,502 --> 00:09:21,862 Speaker 2: and gone out there. When we've turned up, I remember 154 00:09:21,862 --> 00:09:25,302 Speaker 2: the uniform guys when girls were there, they'd spray them 155 00:09:25,662 --> 00:09:29,582 Speaker 2: with capsicum spray. They were standing around the body and 156 00:09:29,622 --> 00:09:35,342 Speaker 2: they were chanting and words about Mephistopheles and biel Zabar 157 00:09:35,462 --> 00:09:41,342 Speaker 2: Bobbi's devil references. They wouldn't leave her, and so they 158 00:09:41,422 --> 00:09:43,982 Speaker 2: basically got sprayed and then chucked in the back of 159 00:09:43,982 --> 00:09:45,462 Speaker 2: the paddy wagon. And even in the back of the 160 00:09:45,462 --> 00:09:47,822 Speaker 2: paddy wagon and I've got that you could still hear 161 00:09:47,862 --> 00:09:54,142 Speaker 2: them carrying on with this cultish devil stuff that they 162 00:09:54,222 --> 00:09:55,782 Speaker 2: were sprouting. 163 00:09:56,782 --> 00:10:00,342 Speaker 1: The outpouring of grief from her death. Can you describe 164 00:10:00,662 --> 00:10:02,822 Speaker 1: that and what that was like to witness. 165 00:10:05,302 --> 00:10:08,022 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was massive, and that's for me one of 166 00:10:08,022 --> 00:10:12,502 Speaker 2: the big things that hit me. Because our coroner is 167 00:10:12,542 --> 00:10:16,382 Speaker 2: at Westmead as Coiren is the aison officer, and the 168 00:10:16,382 --> 00:10:18,582 Speaker 2: fact that I was on restricted duty had just made 169 00:10:18,582 --> 00:10:22,062 Speaker 2: sense that I would go down for the autopsy, and 170 00:10:22,102 --> 00:10:24,542 Speaker 2: because that was in the same hospital where she worked 171 00:10:25,382 --> 00:10:29,062 Speaker 2: her colleagues and friends. They were gathered around and I've 172 00:10:29,102 --> 00:10:31,942 Speaker 2: never felt anything like it. I have never to this 173 00:10:32,022 --> 00:10:36,022 Speaker 2: day felt anything like it. And that outpouring of emotion. 174 00:10:36,302 --> 00:10:38,782 Speaker 2: And then there was a service in the chapel at 175 00:10:38,782 --> 00:10:41,542 Speaker 2: the hospital as well. They said, look, we're going to 176 00:10:41,582 --> 00:10:43,022 Speaker 2: have a few minutes of service if you want to 177 00:10:43,022 --> 00:10:45,702 Speaker 2: come up for that, and it was it was next level. 178 00:10:46,822 --> 00:10:49,982 Speaker 1: This case is obviously horrible, but as a detective you 179 00:10:50,022 --> 00:10:53,902 Speaker 1: were pretty used to horrible by this stage. What was 180 00:10:53,942 --> 00:10:58,062 Speaker 1: it about this particular case that ultimately made you want 181 00:10:58,062 --> 00:11:00,542 Speaker 1: to leave? Started that process for you of wanting to 182 00:11:00,622 --> 00:11:01,182 Speaker 1: leave the job. 183 00:11:01,702 --> 00:11:04,222 Speaker 2: A lot of it I actually put down to a 184 00:11:04,262 --> 00:11:08,262 Speaker 2: communication barrier that in some ways I had built up. 185 00:11:08,302 --> 00:11:13,342 Speaker 2: Like working in Cabramatta with Vietnamese populations, there was always 186 00:11:13,342 --> 00:11:16,342 Speaker 2: a language barrier. Whilst you could see and feel grief 187 00:11:16,382 --> 00:11:20,702 Speaker 2: and things, it never really had that same impact. Now 188 00:11:20,742 --> 00:11:24,462 Speaker 2: I've never had anything with a family like this one right, 189 00:11:24,542 --> 00:11:27,182 Speaker 2: which also played into it. But there was definitely some 190 00:11:27,262 --> 00:11:29,662 Speaker 2: things where I was at a point even where I'm thinking, 191 00:11:29,662 --> 00:11:33,342 Speaker 2: am I that cold? That I'm not actually feeling a 192 00:11:33,382 --> 00:11:35,902 Speaker 2: lot of the stuff. I was almost robotic, And this 193 00:11:35,982 --> 00:11:38,582 Speaker 2: is the cases before the cases before that, and also 194 00:11:39,262 --> 00:11:45,702 Speaker 2: as coinnes Liason obviously meant oversighting, deceased murders, suicides, accidental deaths, 195 00:11:46,022 --> 00:11:49,862 Speaker 2: natural deaths, overdoses, and maintaining that it was like well 196 00:11:49,862 --> 00:11:53,902 Speaker 2: over one hundred a year, not all murders, and there 197 00:11:53,982 --> 00:11:56,062 Speaker 2: is that coldness to it where you're putting on your 198 00:11:56,062 --> 00:11:58,702 Speaker 2: hat and AKA, there's a process and you go through that, 199 00:11:58,742 --> 00:12:00,542 Speaker 2: and I think that's what a lot of us do 200 00:12:01,022 --> 00:12:04,502 Speaker 2: for survival. There's also a lot of gangland stuff that 201 00:12:04,582 --> 00:12:07,542 Speaker 2: was going on, so there's a lot of retribution. It 202 00:12:07,582 --> 00:12:09,702 Speaker 2: was all over the drugs. It was the heroin capital 203 00:12:09,702 --> 00:12:11,662 Speaker 2: of basically the southern the hemisphere of the world at 204 00:12:11,662 --> 00:12:14,982 Speaker 2: that stage, and there's a lot of gangland violence and 205 00:12:17,062 --> 00:12:20,502 Speaker 2: didn't have that same emotional impact as when you have 206 00:12:20,702 --> 00:12:24,742 Speaker 2: that family unit and kids involved, kids witnessing it, and 207 00:12:24,822 --> 00:12:27,582 Speaker 2: this was just like a little suburban place where we 208 00:12:27,662 --> 00:12:30,262 Speaker 2: all grow up from there. 209 00:12:30,782 --> 00:12:33,542 Speaker 1: Once you'd had that big emotional reaction, did you find 210 00:12:33,582 --> 00:12:37,582 Speaker 1: it harder to emotionally detach once you'd experienced that. 211 00:12:38,342 --> 00:12:41,902 Speaker 2: I look back now and realize that for me, that 212 00:12:42,102 --> 00:12:48,182 Speaker 2: was the start of basically the end. I started questioning myself, 213 00:12:48,262 --> 00:12:51,942 Speaker 2: questioning life and purpose, and things like that and just 214 00:12:52,262 --> 00:12:55,542 Speaker 2: not knowing. So yeah, I look back now, I can 215 00:12:55,582 --> 00:12:58,302 Speaker 2: definitely say that was a turning point. 216 00:12:59,302 --> 00:13:01,902 Speaker 1: This was a few years later that you actually ended 217 00:13:01,982 --> 00:13:04,902 Speaker 1: up leaving, but you checked yourself into a mental health 218 00:13:04,902 --> 00:13:08,542 Speaker 1: facility after retiring. Yeah, tell me about that decision. 219 00:13:09,302 --> 00:13:12,542 Speaker 2: That actually came a bit late. So after that, I 220 00:13:12,582 --> 00:13:15,542 Speaker 2: went to child protection and working with sex crimes, and 221 00:13:15,542 --> 00:13:19,302 Speaker 2: again that was I got to the point where I'm 222 00:13:19,302 --> 00:13:25,182 Speaker 2: looking around at so many people harming each other again, gangland, drugs, 223 00:13:25,222 --> 00:13:28,502 Speaker 2: things like that, and I'm thinking, what purpose am I serving? 224 00:13:28,702 --> 00:13:31,462 Speaker 2: Who am I helping? And I thought I looked around 225 00:13:31,502 --> 00:13:34,782 Speaker 2: and I thought this would be cool. I went into 226 00:13:34,822 --> 00:13:38,142 Speaker 2: it with such a little idea, and I remember when 227 00:13:38,142 --> 00:13:40,782 Speaker 2: I went for the interview for Child Protection and the 228 00:13:40,822 --> 00:13:43,702 Speaker 2: superintendent she said, what do you know about our unit? 229 00:13:44,822 --> 00:13:47,702 Speaker 2: Basically said, I you investigate, you deal with kids. Do 230 00:13:47,742 --> 00:13:51,222 Speaker 2: you know anymore? Nope, there's only the fact that I 231 00:13:51,302 --> 00:13:53,942 Speaker 2: had a little bit of experience as a detective. And 232 00:13:53,982 --> 00:13:57,582 Speaker 2: they said, okay, come on in. And I fell in 233 00:13:57,582 --> 00:14:00,142 Speaker 2: love with it, particularly working with teenagers. It just loved it. 234 00:14:00,182 --> 00:14:02,022 Speaker 2: I had a couple of step kids the same age, 235 00:14:02,742 --> 00:14:05,822 Speaker 2: and I was just attracted to that helping these kids 236 00:14:06,102 --> 00:14:08,182 Speaker 2: that you get kids who perhaps no one believes them 237 00:14:08,182 --> 00:14:11,102 Speaker 2: they're victims in their home, different things and actually see 238 00:14:11,142 --> 00:14:14,502 Speaker 2: you would and feel you're actually doing something, And that 239 00:14:14,582 --> 00:14:16,262 Speaker 2: was good for a while. I had my daughter around 240 00:14:16,262 --> 00:14:18,422 Speaker 2: about that time as well. And then you have those 241 00:14:18,422 --> 00:14:21,782 Speaker 2: obvious implications where you're raising a kid and you're going 242 00:14:21,782 --> 00:14:23,702 Speaker 2: to work and you're seeing abused kids and then the 243 00:14:23,742 --> 00:14:26,062 Speaker 2: same age as your little girl when you're going home. 244 00:14:26,142 --> 00:14:28,982 Speaker 2: So and that just kept building, I suppose, and then 245 00:14:29,022 --> 00:14:31,342 Speaker 2: you reached a point where you just wake up one 246 00:14:31,342 --> 00:14:34,222 Speaker 2: morning and you just can't do it. 247 00:14:34,302 --> 00:14:36,142 Speaker 1: Was it taboo for you to go to a mental 248 00:14:36,182 --> 00:14:37,422 Speaker 1: health facility as a detective? 249 00:14:38,422 --> 00:14:42,182 Speaker 2: I think I was on the crossover when we went 250 00:14:42,222 --> 00:14:45,502 Speaker 2: to child protection. We used to have quarterly psych appointments, 251 00:14:46,542 --> 00:14:49,902 Speaker 2: and I was showing signs and I got to the 252 00:14:49,942 --> 00:14:54,342 Speaker 2: point where I was talking very openly to the psychologist 253 00:14:54,582 --> 00:14:57,262 Speaker 2: or counselor that we were sent to, showing a lot 254 00:14:57,262 --> 00:14:59,942 Speaker 2: of signs. I raised this with the police Medical Officer 255 00:14:59,942 --> 00:15:04,182 Speaker 2: of the PMO. Unfortunately, I still don't think they treated 256 00:15:04,222 --> 00:15:07,862 Speaker 2: it as well as they perhaps do now and understand that, 257 00:15:08,502 --> 00:15:10,942 Speaker 2: and they sent me back in the field. They said, nah, 258 00:15:10,942 --> 00:15:13,382 Speaker 2: you're good. It's good to be angry and let you 259 00:15:14,142 --> 00:15:15,862 Speaker 2: and act the way you are, and here's your gun off. 260 00:15:15,902 --> 00:15:18,222 Speaker 2: You go go back to work and I think, oh, yeah, 261 00:15:18,262 --> 00:15:21,742 Speaker 2: I knew something was wrong, and I had a couple 262 00:15:21,782 --> 00:15:23,262 Speaker 2: of times. I took a bit of time off work, 263 00:15:23,262 --> 00:15:25,542 Speaker 2: I went back a little bit more time, and in 264 00:15:25,582 --> 00:15:29,782 Speaker 2: the end, it just absolutely cracked and basically couldn't even 265 00:15:29,822 --> 00:15:33,422 Speaker 2: leave the house. And that took years. I think in 266 00:15:33,462 --> 00:15:35,982 Speaker 2: the end, I'd had to retell my story to about 267 00:15:35,982 --> 00:15:40,742 Speaker 2: eighteen different shrinks, such as the process. It's not an 268 00:15:40,782 --> 00:15:43,982 Speaker 2: easy process, and that's a difficult thing, and you're constantly 269 00:15:44,022 --> 00:15:50,582 Speaker 2: being put under under examination, not just by medicos but 270 00:15:50,662 --> 00:15:54,142 Speaker 2: every party who's involved, and it's like they're testing you 271 00:15:54,622 --> 00:15:56,702 Speaker 2: to see if you can come back or you can't 272 00:15:56,702 --> 00:15:59,382 Speaker 2: come back. There's a lot of harassment as well that 273 00:15:59,462 --> 00:16:01,382 Speaker 2: went on. They didn't handle it really well, and my 274 00:16:01,462 --> 00:16:04,182 Speaker 2: own doctor had to basically send him a letter saying, listen, 275 00:16:04,502 --> 00:16:07,822 Speaker 2: you've got to give this guy some space, just back 276 00:16:07,862 --> 00:16:11,582 Speaker 2: off everything. It was probably about a month to two 277 00:16:11,702 --> 00:16:14,262 Speaker 2: year process to actually get out of the police, and 278 00:16:14,262 --> 00:16:19,502 Speaker 2: in that time, constantly revisiting and going through weekly, sometimes 279 00:16:19,582 --> 00:16:23,342 Speaker 2: twice weekly, appointments, medication, and then I was out of 280 00:16:23,382 --> 00:16:26,942 Speaker 2: the police. So once I was officially out, but it 281 00:16:27,022 --> 00:16:29,382 Speaker 2: was in a couple of years later I realized there 282 00:16:29,422 --> 00:16:31,702 Speaker 2: was so much stuff that I hadn't properly dealt with. 283 00:16:31,742 --> 00:16:36,102 Speaker 2: Even though I'd been so studious and hard working with 284 00:16:36,262 --> 00:16:39,302 Speaker 2: my sic and going through stuff, there was still some 285 00:16:39,342 --> 00:16:43,622 Speaker 2: stuff that just came back, and that bit me on 286 00:16:43,662 --> 00:16:46,542 Speaker 2: the backside harder what I thought, because here I'm thinking, okay, 287 00:16:46,542 --> 00:16:50,262 Speaker 2: I've put that side apart, and of all things. It 288 00:16:50,342 --> 00:16:52,622 Speaker 2: was a few years later I got a phone call 289 00:16:52,742 --> 00:16:58,022 Speaker 2: from headquarters in town saying, I'm going through your file here. 290 00:16:58,222 --> 00:17:01,982 Speaker 2: You're an ex police. I said, yep, and we've got 291 00:17:02,022 --> 00:17:05,622 Speaker 2: like your ten or fifteen year service medal that we 292 00:17:05,702 --> 00:17:07,902 Speaker 2: have to present to you, but as a mark on 293 00:17:07,942 --> 00:17:13,342 Speaker 2: your file it says don't ever contact because of PTSD 294 00:17:13,502 --> 00:17:16,582 Speaker 2: and it's triggering. I said, okay, yep, And they said, 295 00:17:16,582 --> 00:17:19,182 Speaker 2: do you want to come to a ceremony and receive it? 296 00:17:19,342 --> 00:17:20,822 Speaker 2: And I said, stick it in the mail. 297 00:17:23,422 --> 00:17:26,262 Speaker 1: It really sounds like they didn't treat you. Because you 298 00:17:26,302 --> 00:17:30,302 Speaker 1: can't be the only police officer or detective that experiences 299 00:17:30,342 --> 00:17:32,542 Speaker 1: mental health struggles in this job. It is one of 300 00:17:32,622 --> 00:17:36,462 Speaker 1: the hardest jobs that a person can do, and to 301 00:17:36,542 --> 00:17:38,942 Speaker 1: hear what you had to do to actually get support 302 00:17:39,102 --> 00:17:39,702 Speaker 1: is insane. 303 00:17:40,502 --> 00:17:44,742 Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, And I don't want to bag the police. 304 00:17:44,822 --> 00:17:47,742 Speaker 2: I absolutely love the police and I could see myself 305 00:17:47,782 --> 00:17:50,142 Speaker 2: doing nothing else but the police from when I joined 306 00:17:50,182 --> 00:17:52,182 Speaker 2: and I'm at a stage now I've come full circle 307 00:17:52,222 --> 00:17:54,702 Speaker 2: and I can appreciate it. I just think that we're 308 00:17:54,822 --> 00:17:58,742 Speaker 2: constantly learning and evolving. And I'm also a big believer 309 00:17:58,822 --> 00:18:02,622 Speaker 2: that every single job, every single walk of life has 310 00:18:02,662 --> 00:18:05,422 Speaker 2: its own pressure points. I've got a brother who's a 311 00:18:05,462 --> 00:18:09,422 Speaker 2: subcontractor in the construction industry. When a job finishes, he 312 00:18:09,422 --> 00:18:12,222 Speaker 2: doesn't know where his next job. Now, that's pressure as 313 00:18:12,222 --> 00:18:15,862 Speaker 2: opposed to all weekly paycheck. I see mums with pressures 314 00:18:15,902 --> 00:18:18,822 Speaker 2: of having a baby, holding a house together, doing things 315 00:18:18,822 --> 00:18:22,702 Speaker 2: like everything has their own pressure points. As a society, 316 00:18:23,382 --> 00:18:25,342 Speaker 2: we're still learning and we're going to be learning forever 317 00:18:25,382 --> 00:18:27,142 Speaker 2: with this. And my old adage is, if you've got 318 00:18:27,142 --> 00:18:29,502 Speaker 2: a broken leg, you go to a doctor. I've got 319 00:18:29,502 --> 00:18:31,902 Speaker 2: a broken brain, I go to a doctor. It's the 320 00:18:31,942 --> 00:18:33,542 Speaker 2: same thing. To look at that now, But no, we 321 00:18:33,542 --> 00:18:35,262 Speaker 2: weren't good at handling it. We were coming out of 322 00:18:35,262 --> 00:18:38,782 Speaker 2: the dark ages. We'd had the nineteen ninety four Royal 323 00:18:38,822 --> 00:18:42,422 Speaker 2: Commission into corruption, things were changing in the police that 324 00:18:42,422 --> 00:18:45,102 Speaker 2: they were realizing there were so many hardships that weren't 325 00:18:45,142 --> 00:18:47,622 Speaker 2: dealt with. A lot of that was following up on 326 00:18:47,822 --> 00:18:52,302 Speaker 2: a lot of the military investigations and the military research 327 00:18:52,382 --> 00:18:56,102 Speaker 2: that had been done with post traumatic stress. I think 328 00:18:56,142 --> 00:19:01,302 Speaker 2: for a long time, civilian peacekeeping like police was overlooked 329 00:19:01,662 --> 00:19:05,382 Speaker 2: because it doesn't have perhaps it doesn't seem to have 330 00:19:05,422 --> 00:19:08,942 Speaker 2: the same horrors as standing on a battlefield that the 331 00:19:09,022 --> 00:19:13,622 Speaker 2: soldiers have. But what we've learned in the reality is 332 00:19:13,662 --> 00:19:16,942 Speaker 2: that the police are actually in that position every day, 333 00:19:17,702 --> 00:19:20,062 Speaker 2: and there's also the fear of it. Again, we talk 334 00:19:20,102 --> 00:19:22,742 Speaker 2: about domestic violence a lot because to me, that's like terrorism. 335 00:19:22,822 --> 00:19:25,662 Speaker 2: It's the fear of what can happen next. Policing is 336 00:19:25,702 --> 00:19:28,982 Speaker 2: a lot like that military conflicts. Some people may do 337 00:19:29,062 --> 00:19:30,942 Speaker 2: a career in the military not actually go to a 338 00:19:30,942 --> 00:19:33,942 Speaker 2: hot zone. So we started to become a little bit 339 00:19:33,982 --> 00:19:35,582 Speaker 2: more aware of that and deal with it and put 340 00:19:35,622 --> 00:19:38,702 Speaker 2: those things into place, and again we're continuing to grow. Now. 341 00:19:38,742 --> 00:19:41,182 Speaker 2: I know the police stations and patrols now are actually 342 00:19:41,582 --> 00:19:44,942 Speaker 2: getting to the point where they're assigning a station counselor 343 00:19:45,062 --> 00:19:49,462 Speaker 2: or psychologist who you can actually go to. That's great. 344 00:19:49,622 --> 00:19:51,582 Speaker 2: We've got to keep putting those things, but it's going 345 00:19:51,622 --> 00:19:55,702 Speaker 2: to be time before each individual can say I'm not 346 00:19:55,782 --> 00:19:59,222 Speaker 2: afraid to walk through that door and have people see 347 00:19:59,262 --> 00:20:02,222 Speaker 2: me do that, because that matter about the nurse that 348 00:20:02,262 --> 00:20:06,822 Speaker 2: we're talking about. After that incident, the police response was 349 00:20:07,622 --> 00:20:09,462 Speaker 2: we better do a welfare check and send out a 350 00:20:09,502 --> 00:20:13,222 Speaker 2: counselor everyone involved. There may have been twenty or thirty 351 00:20:13,222 --> 00:20:17,222 Speaker 2: police involved, basically everyone on that day. They turn around 352 00:20:17,262 --> 00:20:19,982 Speaker 2: and say, are we're doing it about midday on Saturday? 353 00:20:21,422 --> 00:20:24,502 Speaker 2: Once we're not working that day. We're not paying you 354 00:20:24,542 --> 00:20:29,302 Speaker 2: to come in. It's voluntary, so it's minimal staffing on 355 00:20:29,342 --> 00:20:31,982 Speaker 2: that Saturday. Anyway, everyone came in. We sat in this 356 00:20:31,982 --> 00:20:35,702 Speaker 2: big room. Council sits in the middle. Now we've got 357 00:20:35,742 --> 00:20:39,302 Speaker 2: like the toughest thirty year veterans sitting there. Everyone's got 358 00:20:39,302 --> 00:20:42,542 Speaker 2: their arms crossed, you know, assuming this pose, and this 359 00:20:42,622 --> 00:20:44,942 Speaker 2: lovely council sits in the middle and says, must have 360 00:20:44,982 --> 00:20:47,582 Speaker 2: been traumatic. You'd like to share their feelings? 361 00:20:47,662 --> 00:20:51,062 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, in a room full of your colleagues. 362 00:20:50,662 --> 00:20:53,102 Speaker 2: And there's everyone there from a first year constable to 363 00:20:53,142 --> 00:20:57,862 Speaker 2: a thirty year veteran, and you've still got that vibe 364 00:20:57,942 --> 00:21:01,702 Speaker 2: that I'll deal with it myself and I'm not going 365 00:21:01,742 --> 00:21:04,662 Speaker 2: to blurt out in front of everyone how I actually feel. 366 00:21:05,062 --> 00:21:05,942 Speaker 2: It was just. 367 00:21:06,702 --> 00:21:09,662 Speaker 1: So awkward, So they meant, well, they just weren't doing 368 00:21:09,702 --> 00:21:10,422 Speaker 1: it in the right way. 369 00:21:10,782 --> 00:21:14,262 Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of those measures, there's massive gaps 370 00:21:14,302 --> 00:21:16,502 Speaker 2: in it, Like the quarterly appointments that I used to 371 00:21:16,542 --> 00:21:19,182 Speaker 2: go to for when I was in child protection. There 372 00:21:19,222 --> 00:21:21,582 Speaker 2: was one day I remember basically on my knees and 373 00:21:21,622 --> 00:21:26,182 Speaker 2: I'm crying talking to this counselor, and I say, this 374 00:21:26,222 --> 00:21:28,782 Speaker 2: is about the fifth appointment in a row that I've 375 00:21:28,822 --> 00:21:31,102 Speaker 2: told you how I'm feeling and what's going on. I said, 376 00:21:31,942 --> 00:21:32,782 Speaker 2: are they listening? 377 00:21:34,262 --> 00:21:37,622 Speaker 1: Timing wise, we're talking about the mid to late two thousands, 378 00:21:37,862 --> 00:21:41,702 Speaker 1: So I would hope that in twenty twenty four the 379 00:21:41,742 --> 00:21:43,662 Speaker 1: processes look a bit better. I know that you haven't 380 00:21:43,702 --> 00:21:45,462 Speaker 1: been in the cops for a while, but from what 381 00:21:45,502 --> 00:21:47,382 Speaker 1: you've seen, is it improving? 382 00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:50,142 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I still keep in contact with a number 383 00:21:50,182 --> 00:21:51,822 Speaker 2: of colleagues, and I say, that's where I heard that 384 00:21:51,862 --> 00:21:54,022 Speaker 2: they are trying to put in if they haven't already 385 00:21:55,022 --> 00:22:00,342 Speaker 2: counselors or health professionals at a station basis, and that 386 00:22:00,382 --> 00:22:00,782 Speaker 2: would be. 387 00:22:00,702 --> 00:22:03,302 Speaker 1: Greatly one on one, not in a group. 388 00:22:03,502 --> 00:22:06,182 Speaker 2: Not in a group. But again it's that stigma of 389 00:22:06,662 --> 00:22:08,582 Speaker 2: like it would be almost be putting an office in 390 00:22:08,622 --> 00:22:10,942 Speaker 2: the middle of the police station with this big red door. 391 00:22:11,422 --> 00:22:13,502 Speaker 2: You go into that and people are all gonna be going, oh, 392 00:22:13,582 --> 00:22:16,102 Speaker 2: what's wrong with him? What's wrong with her? They got 393 00:22:16,102 --> 00:22:18,622 Speaker 2: head noises? That was always expression. Now you've got head noises, 394 00:22:19,662 --> 00:22:22,702 Speaker 2: and you hear people talk about our billy blogs. I 395 00:22:22,782 --> 00:22:25,542 Speaker 2: don't think you'll ever be back. And then someone would 396 00:22:25,782 --> 00:22:30,062 Speaker 2: return from long term sick and I remember thinking it 397 00:22:30,102 --> 00:22:33,782 Speaker 2: was like a disease. It was a mystery, and it 398 00:22:33,822 --> 00:22:37,542 Speaker 2: was really hard, and people were awkward around them as well. 399 00:22:37,702 --> 00:22:40,542 Speaker 2: It's just yeah, it was treated like we don't want 400 00:22:40,542 --> 00:22:43,382 Speaker 2: to catch that. You just had to put up this 401 00:22:43,622 --> 00:22:48,982 Speaker 2: absolute bullshit mucho defense. Whether you're a female or a male. 402 00:22:49,142 --> 00:22:52,102 Speaker 2: It was just the machismo that had to be there, 403 00:22:53,222 --> 00:22:53,902 Speaker 2: push it down. 404 00:22:55,222 --> 00:22:57,422 Speaker 1: Is there anything you miss about being a detective? 405 00:22:58,462 --> 00:23:03,302 Speaker 2: The intellectual engagement, the critical thinking. Very few cases, though, 406 00:23:03,342 --> 00:23:05,342 Speaker 2: are as interesting as the ones we see on TV. 407 00:23:05,502 --> 00:23:08,622 Speaker 2: Most of them are cut and dried, but still it's 408 00:23:08,662 --> 00:23:12,302 Speaker 2: the challenge of cover all of your bases with time 409 00:23:12,342 --> 00:23:15,102 Speaker 2: and money. Of course, everything is investigated to a budget. 410 00:23:16,062 --> 00:23:19,142 Speaker 2: Your Alimi evidence, your other witness are just putting that 411 00:23:19,302 --> 00:23:23,582 Speaker 2: type brief of evidence together, and particularly what I found 412 00:23:24,022 --> 00:23:27,982 Speaker 2: in child protection, you want to put together the most 413 00:23:28,262 --> 00:23:33,182 Speaker 2: perfect brief of evidence because when you first present and 414 00:23:33,302 --> 00:23:36,742 Speaker 2: serve your brief of evidence on the defense, you want 415 00:23:36,782 --> 00:23:39,742 Speaker 2: them to look at it and go, Okay, that's tight. 416 00:23:40,662 --> 00:23:43,662 Speaker 2: You want to do everything to avoid that child going 417 00:23:43,702 --> 00:23:46,142 Speaker 2: to court to give evidence. Even though it's done remotely 418 00:23:46,262 --> 00:23:48,862 Speaker 2: through video through camera, they're not in the same room. 419 00:23:49,262 --> 00:23:52,182 Speaker 2: There's still a massive intimidation and you don't want to 420 00:23:52,222 --> 00:23:54,822 Speaker 2: put the family through that. So you don't want any 421 00:23:54,862 --> 00:23:56,782 Speaker 2: gaps in your evidence. You want it's so tight that 422 00:23:56,822 --> 00:23:58,822 Speaker 2: they look at and gay, yeah, we can't beat this, 423 00:23:59,022 --> 00:24:02,982 Speaker 2: will plead guilty. And for me, probably ninety nine percent 424 00:24:02,982 --> 00:24:04,982 Speaker 2: of my briefs ended that way. You just spend that 425 00:24:05,022 --> 00:24:08,342 Speaker 2: little bit more time make sure it's airtight. I love 426 00:24:08,382 --> 00:24:09,102 Speaker 2: that challenge of. 427 00:24:09,062 --> 00:24:11,502 Speaker 1: It because there is that part of your job where 428 00:24:11,742 --> 00:24:15,222 Speaker 1: you can do everything possible as the detective in the case, 429 00:24:15,262 --> 00:24:16,702 Speaker 1: but then there's a point where you have to pass 430 00:24:16,702 --> 00:24:19,582 Speaker 1: it over to the legal system and for them to 431 00:24:19,662 --> 00:24:23,222 Speaker 1: actually find the conviction or the answer or the jail 432 00:24:23,302 --> 00:24:26,542 Speaker 1: time is that hard watching that process. If it doesn't 433 00:24:26,582 --> 00:24:29,022 Speaker 1: go the way you wanted it to go, it. 434 00:24:28,942 --> 00:24:32,302 Speaker 2: Can be hard completely. And one of the things that 435 00:24:32,342 --> 00:24:33,982 Speaker 2: I teach in the workshops that I do, and we 436 00:24:34,062 --> 00:24:38,542 Speaker 2: talk about ethics, morality, law, where they all come together 437 00:24:38,582 --> 00:24:40,942 Speaker 2: at the end of the day. Like the DPP who 438 00:24:40,942 --> 00:24:44,022 Speaker 2: prosecute our matters, there is a public interest that they 439 00:24:44,062 --> 00:24:48,982 Speaker 2: have to serve. And I often talk about a murder 440 00:24:48,982 --> 00:24:52,342 Speaker 2: that we investigated and he was charged with murder, willing 441 00:24:52,382 --> 00:24:56,262 Speaker 2: to plead guilty to manslaughter with interfere with a corpse, 442 00:24:56,862 --> 00:24:59,182 Speaker 2: and the DPP had to weigh that up and they think, Okay, 443 00:24:59,982 --> 00:25:02,062 Speaker 2: we know what his defense is. He's going to say 444 00:25:02,102 --> 00:25:04,462 Speaker 2: it was self defense because that's what he told us 445 00:25:04,502 --> 00:25:08,942 Speaker 2: in an interview. He killed a guy. But they're saying, Okay, 446 00:25:09,062 --> 00:25:11,502 Speaker 2: if he pleads guilty to these we'll get eight years 447 00:25:12,142 --> 00:25:14,982 Speaker 2: if we take on the murder. If he gets acquitted, 448 00:25:15,062 --> 00:25:18,622 Speaker 2: if one of the jurors believes his story of self defense, 449 00:25:19,302 --> 00:25:21,182 Speaker 2: then we could have spent two or three million dollars 450 00:25:21,182 --> 00:25:24,982 Speaker 2: on a lengthy trial of taxpayer money and get nothing. 451 00:25:25,422 --> 00:25:27,782 Speaker 1: Which civilians won't really understand when they watch it from 452 00:25:27,782 --> 00:25:28,382 Speaker 1: the outside. 453 00:25:28,462 --> 00:25:30,742 Speaker 2: And I watched it as they explained to the mother 454 00:25:30,822 --> 00:25:34,622 Speaker 2: of this victim, and it's a bitter pill to swallow. 455 00:25:36,102 --> 00:25:39,982 Speaker 2: It's like, but why, Yeah, It's a reality that can 456 00:25:40,022 --> 00:25:42,622 Speaker 2: really wear you down. So I think the way to 457 00:25:42,662 --> 00:25:46,142 Speaker 2: survive is to treat it like a horrible game. It 458 00:25:46,222 --> 00:25:48,182 Speaker 2: really is, and you have this belief that, okay, there 459 00:25:48,222 --> 00:25:50,462 Speaker 2: will be justice at some stage, something will come around 460 00:25:50,502 --> 00:25:52,782 Speaker 2: where you believe in karma or things like that, but 461 00:25:52,822 --> 00:25:54,382 Speaker 2: you've just got to be happy knowing that you have 462 00:25:54,462 --> 00:25:55,782 Speaker 2: done everything that you can. 463 00:26:00,942 --> 00:26:04,742 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jimmy Bath. 464 00:26:05,222 --> 00:26:08,702 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Luke Taylor about his time as a detective. 465 00:26:09,622 --> 00:26:12,222 Speaker 1: Up next, tells us about what he did after he 466 00:26:12,302 --> 00:26:21,622 Speaker 1: made the decision to leave policing behind. The techniques that 467 00:26:21,662 --> 00:26:24,822 Speaker 1: you used as a detective, are there any I guess 468 00:26:24,822 --> 00:26:27,142 Speaker 1: that listeners would be surprised by. We're used to watching 469 00:26:27,142 --> 00:26:30,502 Speaker 1: TV and seeing the different techniques on the surface, But 470 00:26:30,542 --> 00:26:33,822 Speaker 1: I've heard you mentioned cabbage before, the old. 471 00:26:33,742 --> 00:26:36,102 Speaker 2: Luminol where they come into a crime scene and they 472 00:26:36,102 --> 00:26:39,502 Speaker 2: spray luminol on the wall. They turn the lights off 473 00:26:39,582 --> 00:26:41,862 Speaker 2: and it looks like a blood bath. And the beauty 474 00:26:41,862 --> 00:26:44,982 Speaker 2: of that is it's a presumptive test for organic matter, 475 00:26:45,862 --> 00:26:48,302 Speaker 2: so something that was once living. So as a crime 476 00:26:48,342 --> 00:26:49,942 Speaker 2: scene fellow, he's tried to hey once, he said, can't 477 00:26:49,982 --> 00:26:52,102 Speaker 2: rub a cabbage on the wall. He said, turn the 478 00:26:52,182 --> 00:26:54,342 Speaker 2: lights off and spray. You'll get the same effect. Really, 479 00:26:54,502 --> 00:26:56,662 Speaker 2: it's a presumptive test. So it's the first step we 480 00:26:56,702 --> 00:26:58,902 Speaker 2: know we've got something organic. Then that will be sent 481 00:26:58,902 --> 00:27:01,862 Speaker 2: away for DNA. And the other great thing that people 482 00:27:01,982 --> 00:27:04,822 Speaker 2: hate to hear is that when you send a sample away, 483 00:27:05,702 --> 00:27:09,262 Speaker 2: the screen doesn't split into a montage of color and 484 00:27:09,302 --> 00:27:12,702 Speaker 2: a Who song play and then after ten seconds it 485 00:27:12,822 --> 00:27:16,902 Speaker 2: flashes up suspect identified. A bit harder than that, and 486 00:27:16,942 --> 00:27:20,902 Speaker 2: a lot longer. Yeah, bulk crime could take months, if 487 00:27:20,942 --> 00:27:23,742 Speaker 2: not years for results to come back, and it's a 488 00:27:23,822 --> 00:27:24,542 Speaker 2: numbers game. 489 00:27:25,222 --> 00:27:28,342 Speaker 1: What's more important do you think DNA or fingerprints in 490 00:27:28,382 --> 00:27:29,022 Speaker 1: a crime scene? 491 00:27:30,222 --> 00:27:33,342 Speaker 2: Great question. I think everything is important. Well, that's a 492 00:27:33,342 --> 00:27:38,382 Speaker 2: good political Everything is important in a crime scene. Obviously 493 00:27:38,542 --> 00:27:42,222 Speaker 2: DNA you could have identical twins, but then so that's 494 00:27:42,222 --> 00:27:46,582 Speaker 2: another point of elimination, whereas fingerprints are individual can be 495 00:27:46,662 --> 00:27:49,902 Speaker 2: hard to get fingerprints at times as well, and even DNA. 496 00:27:50,502 --> 00:27:52,582 Speaker 2: We've made a lot of advances in that stuff, but 497 00:27:52,622 --> 00:27:55,942 Speaker 2: it's still not infallible and DNA, like I had a 498 00:27:55,982 --> 00:27:59,662 Speaker 2: job years ago where a body was cut up and 499 00:27:59,702 --> 00:28:01,462 Speaker 2: we had a head. Pulled the head out of the 500 00:28:01,542 --> 00:28:03,862 Speaker 2: river and an only been in the water for about 501 00:28:03,902 --> 00:28:06,982 Speaker 2: thirty six hours, but we could not get a DNA 502 00:28:07,062 --> 00:28:09,942 Speaker 2: sample out of an entire head really, so we set 503 00:28:09,942 --> 00:28:12,702 Speaker 2: the sample to London, of all places back then, which 504 00:28:12,702 --> 00:28:15,302 Speaker 2: are a little bit more advanced to get mitochondrial DNA 505 00:28:15,382 --> 00:28:17,582 Speaker 2: so we could show us the lineage of the mother. 506 00:28:19,102 --> 00:28:21,982 Speaker 2: But now we've gone so far as well that even 507 00:28:21,982 --> 00:28:25,062 Speaker 2: touching this table it's in front of us, is that 508 00:28:25,222 --> 00:28:28,662 Speaker 2: you could pull maybe ten samples and they cross contaminated. Yeah, 509 00:28:28,702 --> 00:28:30,862 Speaker 2: and it's finding that balance, but then you've got the elimination. 510 00:28:31,462 --> 00:28:33,942 Speaker 2: Also fingerprints too, And one of the things I get 511 00:28:33,982 --> 00:28:36,102 Speaker 2: people to do also with their mobile phone is I'd 512 00:28:36,102 --> 00:28:38,382 Speaker 2: like to test with them saying would your fingerprint or 513 00:28:38,462 --> 00:28:40,542 Speaker 2: DNA if you only had one shot at it, what 514 00:28:40,582 --> 00:28:42,782 Speaker 2: would you do? And everyone obviously says it, well, fingerprints, 515 00:28:43,822 --> 00:28:45,982 Speaker 2: and say I hold your phone up, so grab your phone? 516 00:28:46,022 --> 00:28:47,342 Speaker 1: Now is holding my phone? 517 00:28:47,382 --> 00:28:49,542 Speaker 2: This is great for the list. You can do it 518 00:28:49,542 --> 00:28:51,582 Speaker 2: all yourself. Pick up your phone, have look at the 519 00:28:51,622 --> 00:28:52,542 Speaker 2: points of contact. 520 00:28:53,302 --> 00:28:53,982 Speaker 1: Yeah. 521 00:28:54,062 --> 00:28:55,702 Speaker 2: Now are you getting a full fingerprint? 522 00:28:55,782 --> 00:28:57,982 Speaker 1: No, not a single one. Even my son which is 523 00:28:57,982 --> 00:28:59,902 Speaker 1: on the side of my phone is slightly raised. 524 00:29:00,702 --> 00:29:02,942 Speaker 2: Excellent. And do you have a thumb identification? 525 00:29:03,382 --> 00:29:05,982 Speaker 1: No, because nowadays you do the little click. I've got 526 00:29:06,022 --> 00:29:07,942 Speaker 1: an iPhone, so I do a little click on the side. 527 00:29:08,142 --> 00:29:10,062 Speaker 2: Excellent. I've got a Samsung. And if I doesn't do 528 00:29:10,102 --> 00:29:12,782 Speaker 2: face recognition, I can put my thumb print. But then 529 00:29:12,782 --> 00:29:15,822 Speaker 2: what's the first thing I do once I open an app? 530 00:29:15,942 --> 00:29:16,542 Speaker 2: I swipe? 531 00:29:17,222 --> 00:29:18,182 Speaker 1: You're contaminating it. 532 00:29:18,262 --> 00:29:20,382 Speaker 2: Yes, So there's so many things. So when you get 533 00:29:20,382 --> 00:29:22,262 Speaker 2: an object like that, you've got to look at the physiology. 534 00:29:22,382 --> 00:29:25,022 Speaker 2: How is the object held, how is it used? Do 535 00:29:25,062 --> 00:29:27,102 Speaker 2: you put the phone to your ear or do you 536 00:29:27,102 --> 00:29:28,382 Speaker 2: speak into the speakerphone? 537 00:29:28,862 --> 00:29:32,302 Speaker 1: And that's going to be a different kind of DNA fingerprint. 538 00:29:32,462 --> 00:29:34,662 Speaker 2: We don't like to admit it, but we do spit 539 00:29:34,702 --> 00:29:38,022 Speaker 2: a fair bit when we talk straight into the microphone. 540 00:29:39,062 --> 00:29:41,902 Speaker 1: I've heard quite a few form of detectives people we've 541 00:29:41,942 --> 00:29:44,702 Speaker 1: had on the show talk about the fact that nowadays 542 00:29:44,702 --> 00:29:47,422 Speaker 1: it's a lot harder to get away with, say murder, 543 00:29:48,102 --> 00:29:50,502 Speaker 1: because of all of the technology that we've got. Would 544 00:29:50,542 --> 00:29:51,222 Speaker 1: you agree with that? 545 00:29:52,062 --> 00:29:55,942 Speaker 2: The era of ubiquitous computing, it is all around us, 546 00:29:56,542 --> 00:29:59,382 Speaker 2: all those little RFIDs and things. You can track people 547 00:29:59,502 --> 00:30:02,222 Speaker 2: anywhere you walk down your street now with your phone on, 548 00:30:02,782 --> 00:30:06,542 Speaker 2: and civilians have the capability. But that would be picked 549 00:30:06,622 --> 00:30:10,422 Speaker 2: up by so many different sources, every building, every life, 550 00:30:10,502 --> 00:30:12,502 Speaker 2: I said, r if I do all that radio frequency 551 00:30:12,502 --> 00:30:17,302 Speaker 2: identification things, it sends signals everywhere. Everyone has a phone, 552 00:30:17,902 --> 00:30:21,502 Speaker 2: everyone records stuff. We have dash cams, we have phones. 553 00:30:21,742 --> 00:30:26,022 Speaker 2: It's the era of constant surveillance, and it is we 554 00:30:26,062 --> 00:30:29,622 Speaker 2: can basically pinpoint. Nobody can go cold, nobody can go 555 00:30:29,662 --> 00:30:33,182 Speaker 2: off the grid. They think they can, and fortunately for us, 556 00:30:33,222 --> 00:30:37,262 Speaker 2: most crimes are crimes of passion and there's not that 557 00:30:37,342 --> 00:30:39,102 Speaker 2: much forethought that goes into it. 558 00:30:40,062 --> 00:30:43,182 Speaker 1: So it's almost like your phone could be the thing 559 00:30:43,222 --> 00:30:46,422 Speaker 1: that is your undoing. Really, like, could you solve a 560 00:30:46,502 --> 00:30:49,062 Speaker 1: crime just by tapping into someone's phone? 561 00:30:49,662 --> 00:30:52,862 Speaker 2: That's always the thing in any interview and things like that. 562 00:30:52,942 --> 00:30:56,262 Speaker 2: We won't talk about methodology, but yeah, there are so 563 00:30:56,382 --> 00:31:00,262 Speaker 2: many ways. I mean, everyone knows about cell towers, triangulation, 564 00:31:00,302 --> 00:31:03,142 Speaker 2: they're the basic things, and that still works. So your 565 00:31:03,142 --> 00:31:07,262 Speaker 2: phone's constantly searching for three points in cell towers. So 566 00:31:07,302 --> 00:31:09,622 Speaker 2: when you do triangulation, you put a trace you out 567 00:31:09,622 --> 00:31:11,782 Speaker 2: to keep trying to find that phone until it narrows 568 00:31:11,782 --> 00:31:13,422 Speaker 2: and narrows down. And that can be like a ten 569 00:31:13,502 --> 00:31:16,782 Speaker 2: square meter spot. So you narrow that down, it might 570 00:31:16,822 --> 00:31:19,742 Speaker 2: be back out here on Williams Street somewhere like that. 571 00:31:19,822 --> 00:31:21,902 Speaker 2: And then you'll pick up the other surveillance cameras you 572 00:31:21,942 --> 00:31:24,542 Speaker 2: see how many people were driving in the time. It 573 00:31:24,622 --> 00:31:27,302 Speaker 2: may be a traffic cam that might pick something up. 574 00:31:27,342 --> 00:31:29,262 Speaker 2: The traffic cam might actually pick up a car and 575 00:31:29,302 --> 00:31:30,982 Speaker 2: that car'll have a redger and you say, hey, have 576 00:31:31,022 --> 00:31:32,542 Speaker 2: you got a dash cam in there? Yes? I have? 577 00:31:32,622 --> 00:31:34,542 Speaker 2: If you come from this street, yes, can we check 578 00:31:34,582 --> 00:31:38,782 Speaker 2: your dash cam? Businesses with surveillance ATMs that constantly take 579 00:31:38,862 --> 00:31:41,462 Speaker 2: photos of the people at the ATM but also the 580 00:31:41,462 --> 00:31:43,862 Speaker 2: people who are walking behind them. You go to Cole's Now. 581 00:31:43,902 --> 00:31:46,742 Speaker 2: The other day, I'm putting a credit card in at 582 00:31:46,742 --> 00:31:49,022 Speaker 2: the Coles tap and go section because they don't have 583 00:31:49,142 --> 00:31:52,342 Speaker 2: enough staff to serve me, and it's taking photos of me. 584 00:31:52,422 --> 00:31:53,982 Speaker 2: My photo comes up on the screen. 585 00:31:53,742 --> 00:31:54,502 Speaker 1: There's a little video. 586 00:31:54,782 --> 00:31:57,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do my hair, make sure it's all looking good, 587 00:31:57,462 --> 00:31:58,902 Speaker 2: but it's. 588 00:31:58,782 --> 00:32:02,462 Speaker 1: Everywhere after the police force. I mean, you've already alluded 589 00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:04,502 Speaker 1: to it. But you did become an educator. You went 590 00:32:04,542 --> 00:32:07,502 Speaker 1: and restudied. Tell me about how you landed on that 591 00:32:07,542 --> 00:32:11,222 Speaker 1: as your next career, and particularly in creating this workshop, 592 00:32:11,302 --> 00:32:12,502 Speaker 1: these crime stories. 593 00:32:13,182 --> 00:32:16,062 Speaker 2: Yeah, I became a teacher by accident. So a few 594 00:32:16,102 --> 00:32:19,662 Speaker 2: years out I just had to re engage my brain. 595 00:32:19,902 --> 00:32:23,022 Speaker 2: I'd done a lot of reading and research, and so 596 00:32:23,422 --> 00:32:26,302 Speaker 2: one thing I loved was literature. And then it was 597 00:32:26,382 --> 00:32:29,182 Speaker 2: years later I thought, why am I trying to fit 598 00:32:29,302 --> 00:32:31,902 Speaker 2: myself into someone else's box. Just do it I love, 599 00:32:32,702 --> 00:32:34,542 Speaker 2: And so I'd picked up a couple of subjects. I'm 600 00:32:34,542 --> 00:32:39,222 Speaker 2: literally just eighteenth century English poetry, Shakespeare and things like that. 601 00:32:39,622 --> 00:32:42,062 Speaker 2: And for two years I was just doing subjects. I thought, 602 00:32:42,062 --> 00:32:43,742 Speaker 2: I'm going to be a writer or a journo. 603 00:32:44,142 --> 00:32:44,662 Speaker 1: Ah, there you go. 604 00:32:44,822 --> 00:32:47,102 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought I'm going to be an alcoholic journalist. 605 00:32:49,742 --> 00:32:51,022 Speaker 1: There's a stereotype for it. 606 00:32:51,142 --> 00:32:53,302 Speaker 2: I know. It's been like the alcoholic police, isn't it 607 00:32:53,382 --> 00:32:55,782 Speaker 2: the same thing, same stereotype. Yeah, And I started doing 608 00:32:55,782 --> 00:32:58,822 Speaker 2: those subjects. Did my pregnant After about two weeks of observation, 609 00:32:59,382 --> 00:33:02,022 Speaker 2: I got to stand up nervously in front of these 610 00:33:02,102 --> 00:33:04,302 Speaker 2: year ten kids because they're not judgmental. 611 00:33:05,662 --> 00:33:07,702 Speaker 1: I love that you're nervous about year ten kids when 612 00:33:07,742 --> 00:33:09,502 Speaker 1: you have come from the world of crime. 613 00:33:10,422 --> 00:33:12,022 Speaker 2: I tried to say to them. Look at twenty one, 614 00:33:12,022 --> 00:33:14,222 Speaker 2: I'm run around a gun on my hip, I said. 615 00:33:14,222 --> 00:33:17,422 Speaker 2: And then mid thirties. Here I'm shaking like a leaf 616 00:33:17,702 --> 00:33:20,822 Speaker 2: in front of these year ten kids. But it just 617 00:33:20,902 --> 00:33:25,702 Speaker 2: came out of me. I started talking about literary techniques 618 00:33:25,742 --> 00:33:28,822 Speaker 2: and things, and I said, now, oh, I'm not even working. 619 00:33:28,862 --> 00:33:31,942 Speaker 2: This is just amazing, and I get to share my 620 00:33:32,142 --> 00:33:34,862 Speaker 2: enthusiasm and just watch people respond to that, and I 621 00:33:34,902 --> 00:33:39,302 Speaker 2: absolutely loved it. It was basically just glorified babysitting in 622 00:33:39,302 --> 00:33:42,782 Speaker 2: a particular school. I got to work there. I signed 623 00:33:42,782 --> 00:33:45,022 Speaker 2: on this school I'd never been to before, and I 624 00:33:45,062 --> 00:33:48,382 Speaker 2: went and locked myself into toilets. I was soaking wet. 625 00:33:49,222 --> 00:33:52,062 Speaker 2: I'm pulling handtaels off the walls, sticking them down my shirt. 626 00:33:53,142 --> 00:33:55,302 Speaker 2: And it was a make or break moment. I thought, 627 00:33:55,382 --> 00:33:58,262 Speaker 2: I just want to run home. I'm in tears, I'm sweating, 628 00:33:58,662 --> 00:34:02,822 Speaker 2: I can't move. I was just paralyzed again. Yeah, that 629 00:34:02,942 --> 00:34:06,902 Speaker 2: moment I went out. I did a lesson and luckily 630 00:34:06,942 --> 00:34:09,742 Speaker 2: that was that got me through. But yeah, and you 631 00:34:09,782 --> 00:34:12,382 Speaker 2: still get days like that. You still have days like that. 632 00:34:12,462 --> 00:34:14,302 Speaker 2: Everything is a challenge. But I know I'm not going 633 00:34:14,342 --> 00:34:17,382 Speaker 2: to die. Yeah, that's a big thing. And I know 634 00:34:17,942 --> 00:34:20,502 Speaker 2: for most cases, I'm not putting myself in that position 635 00:34:20,502 --> 00:34:23,742 Speaker 2: that it was that the police are doing every day. 636 00:34:23,782 --> 00:34:26,662 Speaker 2: Now my heart goes out to them for they're still 637 00:34:26,662 --> 00:34:27,022 Speaker 2: doing it. 638 00:34:28,102 --> 00:34:30,222 Speaker 1: Well, eventually you found a way to kind of combine 639 00:34:30,502 --> 00:34:35,662 Speaker 1: your two loves detective work and teaching. If I was 640 00:34:35,702 --> 00:34:39,022 Speaker 1: to walk into one of your workshops crime story workshops, 641 00:34:39,022 --> 00:34:41,302 Speaker 1: what would I find or what would be presented to me? 642 00:34:41,422 --> 00:34:43,182 Speaker 2: Well, you wouldn't solve it. I don't think you're good enough. 643 00:34:43,222 --> 00:34:47,622 Speaker 1: What I could do it? Right? Is this what the 644 00:34:47,702 --> 00:34:48,382 Speaker 1: kids will say? 645 00:34:48,622 --> 00:34:50,582 Speaker 2: Ah, they pick up the first piece of evidence and 646 00:34:50,582 --> 00:34:53,542 Speaker 2: they're doing I got this, I've got this, And it 647 00:34:53,662 --> 00:34:58,702 Speaker 2: is so convoluted and twisting and turning with exculpatry and 648 00:34:58,782 --> 00:35:01,502 Speaker 2: culpatory evidence or red herrings as people like to call 649 00:35:01,542 --> 00:35:04,502 Speaker 2: them in the literary world. It messes with their minds. 650 00:35:04,542 --> 00:35:06,702 Speaker 1: So they literally walk into a crime scene that you 651 00:35:06,782 --> 00:35:07,262 Speaker 1: set up. 652 00:35:07,382 --> 00:35:11,182 Speaker 2: So we set them up, so we have these digitally 653 00:35:11,382 --> 00:35:15,582 Speaker 2: printed backdrops. They're six meters long two and a half 654 00:35:15,702 --> 00:35:18,902 Speaker 2: meters tall, big aluminium frame and they go over the 655 00:35:18,942 --> 00:35:20,422 Speaker 2: top of that. We have one on each end of 656 00:35:20,422 --> 00:35:22,702 Speaker 2: the room, so there's two crime scenes in front of that, 657 00:35:22,982 --> 00:35:25,142 Speaker 2: and they're based on real crimes that I've investigated, So 658 00:35:25,182 --> 00:35:28,622 Speaker 2: we've put components together of that, and all the exhibits 659 00:35:28,622 --> 00:35:32,262 Speaker 2: are laid out to evidence markers, and there's about eight 660 00:35:32,262 --> 00:35:35,182 Speaker 2: evidence most there's hundreds of exhibits and they've got to 661 00:35:35,182 --> 00:35:38,142 Speaker 2: work their way through that, and then they'll cross over 662 00:35:38,222 --> 00:35:40,862 Speaker 2: at the midway point and do the other investigation. And 663 00:35:40,862 --> 00:35:42,462 Speaker 2: then if you're doing a full day one, maybe we're 664 00:35:42,462 --> 00:35:45,702 Speaker 2: doing legal studies, or for the corporate workshops, we'll do 665 00:35:45,742 --> 00:35:48,862 Speaker 2: conversation management. They actually get to interview a couple of witnesses. 666 00:35:49,782 --> 00:35:53,422 Speaker 2: I get to play Gary the Garbo and I play hardball. 667 00:35:53,582 --> 00:35:54,702 Speaker 2: What do they learn. 668 00:35:54,622 --> 00:35:56,262 Speaker 1: By basically playing detective? 669 00:35:56,342 --> 00:35:56,422 Speaker 2: Like? 670 00:35:56,462 --> 00:35:57,462 Speaker 1: How does that help them? 671 00:35:57,982 --> 00:36:00,622 Speaker 2: Mine originally was based on writing. So I went to 672 00:36:00,662 --> 00:36:03,902 Speaker 2: got to Master's of writing, and while I'm sitting in class, 673 00:36:04,502 --> 00:36:08,182 Speaker 2: I'm watching these kids struggle with the concepts of writing. 674 00:36:09,502 --> 00:36:12,582 Speaker 2: The school I went who was big on project based learning, 675 00:36:12,622 --> 00:36:14,382 Speaker 2: and we were taught to do that and I took 676 00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:17,262 Speaker 2: some kids who were really low literacy, actually said to them, 677 00:36:17,542 --> 00:36:19,502 Speaker 2: you want to come and make a video game, so 678 00:36:19,622 --> 00:36:22,862 Speaker 2: let's make Grand Theft Auto. And what I did I 679 00:36:22,982 --> 00:36:27,062 Speaker 2: used these objects this experiential learning, so we basically described 680 00:36:27,062 --> 00:36:29,062 Speaker 2: our observations and what we were doing. I parked the 681 00:36:29,062 --> 00:36:31,622 Speaker 2: car and the bush left the doors open. We got 682 00:36:31,622 --> 00:36:33,142 Speaker 2: to it and said, right, the offenders had gone, which 683 00:36:33,142 --> 00:36:36,422 Speaker 2: way did they go? And we would record our observation. 684 00:36:36,502 --> 00:36:37,942 Speaker 2: So I had the course of a week, these guys 685 00:36:37,942 --> 00:36:40,742 Speaker 2: put together a brilliant piece of writing for guys who 686 00:36:40,782 --> 00:36:44,622 Speaker 2: could hardly write. So I then looked into experiential learning 687 00:36:44,662 --> 00:36:46,462 Speaker 2: and thought, right, if we do this properly, there are 688 00:36:46,462 --> 00:36:47,942 Speaker 2: better ways to teach these kids. 689 00:36:49,062 --> 00:36:51,422 Speaker 1: So I'm imagining and like for someone to help them 690 00:36:51,462 --> 00:36:53,822 Speaker 1: with English. It's like by sitting there and having to 691 00:36:53,862 --> 00:36:56,462 Speaker 1: describe pieces of evidence, that's going to help them with 692 00:36:56,742 --> 00:36:59,582 Speaker 1: the way they use their words in their writing completely. 693 00:37:00,022 --> 00:37:02,462 Speaker 2: So I start the workshop with one of my stories. 694 00:37:03,302 --> 00:37:05,382 Speaker 2: I then get them to become detectives. I say, okay, 695 00:37:05,542 --> 00:37:07,702 Speaker 2: I was the star of the show. Now you're the 696 00:37:07,742 --> 00:37:10,902 Speaker 2: star of the show. What you need to be as 697 00:37:10,942 --> 00:37:13,622 Speaker 2: a writer is you need to then transfer that power 698 00:37:13,782 --> 00:37:16,102 Speaker 2: to the reader. So I'm saying to them, give the 699 00:37:16,142 --> 00:37:18,782 Speaker 2: power to the reader. Let them solve it. It's not 700 00:37:18,822 --> 00:37:21,182 Speaker 2: about you telling him your inferences and what you think 701 00:37:21,342 --> 00:37:25,422 Speaker 2: you've solved. The power of simply just recording their observations 702 00:37:25,422 --> 00:37:28,742 Speaker 2: at a crime scene and leaving it. You then have 703 00:37:28,782 --> 00:37:30,982 Speaker 2: the power of the reader going, oh, I think this 704 00:37:31,022 --> 00:37:33,782 Speaker 2: has happened or that's happened. You don't solve it, you 705 00:37:33,942 --> 00:37:37,022 Speaker 2: build it gradually. The human nature we all want to 706 00:37:37,022 --> 00:37:39,102 Speaker 2: solve things. We all want to be right, and we 707 00:37:39,102 --> 00:37:41,582 Speaker 2: all want to solve things. And the ability is not 708 00:37:41,662 --> 00:37:45,902 Speaker 2: to tell them. You guide them. So by using your observations, 709 00:37:45,942 --> 00:37:49,062 Speaker 2: even in a short piece of writing, it's powerful and engages. 710 00:37:50,582 --> 00:37:52,942 Speaker 1: What has surprise the kids about the experience. What is 711 00:37:52,982 --> 00:37:54,102 Speaker 1: the feedback you've been getting. 712 00:37:55,142 --> 00:37:59,342 Speaker 2: Even the most hard headed teenage boy who wants to 713 00:37:59,422 --> 00:38:03,142 Speaker 2: kick his football at your head and say this is lame. 714 00:38:03,262 --> 00:38:05,742 Speaker 2: I don't want to do this. They come into it 715 00:38:05,742 --> 00:38:07,902 Speaker 2: at the end of the workshop. They've got this book 716 00:38:07,942 --> 00:38:12,062 Speaker 2: of all is writing all these observations and paragraphs, and 717 00:38:12,102 --> 00:38:15,542 Speaker 2: they go, how did you get me to write? You 718 00:38:15,622 --> 00:38:18,582 Speaker 2: tricked me? That's the thing. They get so immersed in 719 00:38:18,582 --> 00:38:20,182 Speaker 2: this knowing that it's a true crime, and they con 720 00:38:20,222 --> 00:38:22,302 Speaker 2: solve it and they're the clues that they start acting 721 00:38:22,342 --> 00:38:24,902 Speaker 2: the way they always do. And that's when we can 722 00:38:24,982 --> 00:38:27,102 Speaker 2: work with and work with their strengths and say, right, 723 00:38:27,182 --> 00:38:30,462 Speaker 2: this is your natural ability, let's move this, let's work 724 00:38:30,502 --> 00:38:33,022 Speaker 2: with that. It's a real eye happened. They just yeah, 725 00:38:33,142 --> 00:38:36,262 Speaker 2: they don't know what they're actually doing and how much 726 00:38:36,302 --> 00:38:38,862 Speaker 2: they're achieving. And we reflect back on that throughout the day. 727 00:38:40,022 --> 00:38:43,262 Speaker 1: Do you ever hold a session with these kids and think, oh, 728 00:38:43,502 --> 00:38:44,862 Speaker 1: that kid could be a detective? 729 00:38:45,422 --> 00:38:53,222 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, I'm amazed. Particularly girls, they are obsessed with 730 00:38:53,302 --> 00:38:57,462 Speaker 2: true crime. They know more than me. They are amazing. 731 00:38:57,582 --> 00:39:01,302 Speaker 2: The things that they tell me. I just go, wow, 732 00:39:02,062 --> 00:39:04,742 Speaker 2: it's scary, but and I love it. It's the way 733 00:39:04,782 --> 00:39:07,822 Speaker 2: they think. And I've got to say that eighty percent 734 00:39:08,062 --> 00:39:13,582 Speaker 2: of the kids in school who can really get their 735 00:39:13,622 --> 00:39:17,102 Speaker 2: teeth into that, they are females. They're amazing. We're at 736 00:39:17,102 --> 00:39:18,822 Speaker 2: a school the other day at Lucas Heights. So were 737 00:39:18,822 --> 00:39:21,462 Speaker 2: fantastic and the boys were really good as well, but 738 00:39:21,462 --> 00:39:24,702 Speaker 2: they were all high performing kids and these guys were fantastic. 739 00:39:24,782 --> 00:39:27,742 Speaker 2: But generally it's the girls and it's the way they think. 740 00:39:28,302 --> 00:39:30,542 Speaker 2: They just go deep into it. As a lot, the 741 00:39:30,542 --> 00:39:33,302 Speaker 2: boys can be quite shallow. I was one of them, 742 00:39:33,382 --> 00:39:37,142 Speaker 2: still am, but I've grown up a bit and surface level, 743 00:39:37,142 --> 00:39:39,542 Speaker 2: whereas these girls go what if, what if? What if? 744 00:39:39,702 --> 00:39:42,662 Speaker 2: And they just go deeper and deeper and it's fantastic. 745 00:39:42,862 --> 00:39:46,342 Speaker 1: So does it give you confidence? Obviously we do have 746 00:39:46,422 --> 00:39:48,262 Speaker 1: amazing people in the police force now, but for the 747 00:39:48,302 --> 00:39:52,302 Speaker 1: future of the police force, and you're hopeful that when 748 00:39:52,342 --> 00:39:55,462 Speaker 1: these kids that you're teaching maybe one day become detectives, 749 00:39:55,462 --> 00:39:57,302 Speaker 1: that they are going to have that support and be 750 00:39:57,382 --> 00:39:59,582 Speaker 1: in that career for decades and decades and decades and 751 00:39:59,622 --> 00:40:01,942 Speaker 1: be able to kind of continue that job. 752 00:40:02,462 --> 00:40:04,702 Speaker 2: That would be amazing because I think the average career 753 00:40:04,742 --> 00:40:07,102 Speaker 2: is down about three years now. Really it was about 754 00:40:07,102 --> 00:40:08,102 Speaker 2: seven when I got out. 755 00:40:08,342 --> 00:40:09,102 Speaker 1: Three years. 756 00:40:09,422 --> 00:40:12,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a similar thing to teaching what I'm 757 00:40:12,422 --> 00:40:16,022 Speaker 2: seeing obviously having been in both industries. So when I joined, 758 00:40:16,502 --> 00:40:18,182 Speaker 2: you had people you could have a trade or you'd 759 00:40:18,182 --> 00:40:20,022 Speaker 2: have an HSC to get into the police. Then once 760 00:40:20,022 --> 00:40:22,702 Speaker 2: we got out, we had to do like a Constable's 761 00:40:22,702 --> 00:40:25,782 Speaker 2: Development program, which is basically to get you an advanced diploma. 762 00:40:25,982 --> 00:40:28,742 Speaker 2: My detective's course was an advanced diploma and then it's 763 00:40:28,862 --> 00:40:33,142 Speaker 2: now a degree level, and I think that they're going 764 00:40:33,182 --> 00:40:35,142 Speaker 2: to have five six careers. They've done a lot of careers, 765 00:40:35,182 --> 00:40:37,422 Speaker 2: work in skills. They're going to have five or six careers. 766 00:40:37,622 --> 00:40:40,422 Speaker 1: That's a shame with police because seniority is important. 767 00:40:40,862 --> 00:40:44,462 Speaker 2: It's amazing. Yes, that accumulating knowledge. You can't just buy that. 768 00:40:44,582 --> 00:40:47,062 Speaker 2: You cannot read a book to get that. You've got 769 00:40:47,102 --> 00:40:50,502 Speaker 2: to earn that and it takes time, and it scares 770 00:40:50,542 --> 00:40:53,222 Speaker 2: me that that knowledge can just disappear. 771 00:40:53,822 --> 00:40:56,782 Speaker 1: Well, hopefully all those smart girls and boys that you're teaching, 772 00:40:57,622 --> 00:40:58,542 Speaker 1: well one day get there. 773 00:40:58,742 --> 00:41:01,982 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's that critical thinking. And again it's what 774 00:41:02,102 --> 00:41:04,302 Speaker 2: they also realized and we try to help them realize, 775 00:41:04,302 --> 00:41:06,022 Speaker 2: which may not be good for the police, is it's 776 00:41:06,262 --> 00:41:09,742 Speaker 2: they're transferable skills. They can use that anywhere. That's the 777 00:41:09,862 --> 00:41:14,902 Speaker 2: essence train at anything. But if you've got communication, literacy 778 00:41:14,942 --> 00:41:18,662 Speaker 2: and those transferable skills and that empathy and understanding, you 779 00:41:18,702 --> 00:41:19,862 Speaker 2: could be trained to do anything. 780 00:41:25,382 --> 00:41:28,542 Speaker 1: Thanks to Luke for telling us his story. True Crime 781 00:41:28,582 --> 00:41:31,902 Speaker 1: Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by 782 00:41:31,902 --> 00:41:35,782 Speaker 1: me Jamma Bath with audio design by Scott Stronik. Our 783 00:41:35,822 --> 00:41:39,982 Speaker 1: executive producer is Crystal Cornielsen, thanks so much for listening. 784 00:41:40,182 --> 00:41:43,022 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation.