WEBVTT - Did America Just Execute An Innocent Man? 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a Mumma Mia podcast. Mamma Mea acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:30.062 recorded on It's a Tuesday evening on the twenty fourth 0:00:30.102 --> 0:00:33.502 of September twenty twenty four in the American state of Missouri, 0:00:33.942 --> 0:00:38.502 and Marcellus Williams is preparing to die. He's been sentenced 0:00:38.502 --> 0:00:41.422 to death by lethal injection for the stubbing murder of 0:00:41.462 --> 0:00:44.582 Felicia Gale, a local reporter who was found dead in 0:00:44.582 --> 0:00:48.502 her home in nineteen ninety eight. Williams has been on 0:00:48.582 --> 0:00:52.222 death row since two thousand and one, but doubt has 0:00:52.262 --> 0:00:56.262 been cast over his guilt, a lot of doubt. The 0:00:56.302 --> 0:01:00.262 fifty five year old's lawyers, the victim's family, the prosecution, 0:01:00.742 --> 0:01:04.382 and the jurors who convicted him have all admitted he 0:01:04.502 --> 0:01:08.622 may not be guilty, but those in charge aren't listening. 0:01:10.662 --> 0:01:14.942 The governor has denied appeals, the Supreme Court hasn't intervened, 0:01:15.662 --> 0:01:20.422 and so here we are. Williams has consumed his final 0:01:20.502 --> 0:01:24.022 meal of choice, chicken wings and tater tots, and said 0:01:24.062 --> 0:01:28.342 his final words, all Praise be to Allah. In every situation. 0:01:29.822 --> 0:01:35.342 He is pronounced dead at exactly six ' ten PM. 0:01:35.382 --> 0:01:38.702 But what does the evidence show? Should Williams have been spared? 0:01:39.782 --> 0:01:48.462 Did Missouri just execute an innocent man? I'm Jemma Bath 0:01:48.622 --> 0:01:51.342 and this is True Crime Conversations, a mum of Mere 0:01:51.382 --> 0:01:55.302 podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 0:01:55.342 --> 0:01:58.462 the people who know the most about them. Marcellus Williams 0:01:58.542 --> 0:02:01.862 was the one hundredth person executed in Missouri since nineteen 0:02:01.902 --> 0:02:06.102 eighty nine. Officials from the Missouri Department of Corrections addressed 0:02:06.102 --> 0:02:07.102 the media after his. 0:02:07.142 --> 0:02:10.622 Death, we hope this gives finality to a case has 0:02:10.702 --> 0:02:15.582 languished for decades, revictimizing miss Gale's family over and over again. 0:02:16.662 --> 0:02:20.382 No juror nor judge has ever found Williams innocent's claim 0:02:20.462 --> 0:02:24.222 to be credible. Thus the order of execution has been 0:02:24.262 --> 0:02:24.782 carried out. 0:02:25.542 --> 0:02:28.982 What this press conference fails to address is the mounting 0:02:29.062 --> 0:02:32.822 evidence that suggested that Williams case wasn't as water tight 0:02:33.302 --> 0:02:36.062 as this statement by Governor Mike Parson made it sound. 0:02:36.742 --> 0:02:40.422 Even if Williams was guilty, what those fighting to save 0:02:40.462 --> 0:02:44.422 his life insisted was there was reasonable doubt in this 0:02:44.502 --> 0:02:49.382 conviction that alone should have saved his life. Three months 0:02:49.422 --> 0:02:52.142 before his execution, host and creator of the true crime 0:02:52.142 --> 0:02:55.822 podcast One Minute Remaining, Jack Lawrence spoke to Williams on 0:02:55.862 --> 0:02:56.742 the phone from prison. 0:02:56.902 --> 0:03:00.222 There's obviously people in the community who would you listen 0:03:00.222 --> 0:03:03.022 to your story and people would turn around and say, oh, well, 0:03:03.062 --> 0:03:04.782 you know, this guy was a career criminal, he was 0:03:04.942 --> 0:03:06.902 out of prison. You know, why should we trust what 0:03:06.942 --> 0:03:07.382 he says? 0:03:07.582 --> 0:03:10.662 Well, marvais Mons would be you know, if you believe 0:03:10.822 --> 0:03:14.382 in democracy, and you believe in the justice system that's 0:03:14.382 --> 0:03:18.302 set up in this country, then you understand that the 0:03:18.422 --> 0:03:21.462 rule of law is supposed to governing in regardless of 0:03:21.902 --> 0:03:24.222 whatever I was going through. Those choices that I made 0:03:24.302 --> 0:03:28.142 in those other cases have absolutely nothing to do with 0:03:28.502 --> 0:03:29.062 this case. 0:03:29.102 --> 0:03:29.342 Here. 0:03:29.422 --> 0:03:31.702 Everything is supposed to be just in the light in 0:03:31.742 --> 0:03:33.662 which they come and being presented to people. 0:03:34.302 --> 0:03:36.982 After speaking to Williams and getting to know him, Jack 0:03:37.102 --> 0:03:42.902 also joins the fight to save his life. Jack joins us, Now, Jack, 0:03:42.942 --> 0:03:46.742 how did you find yourself chatting to Marcellus Williams from 0:03:46.782 --> 0:03:49.462 prison mere months before his execution? 0:03:50.302 --> 0:03:53.302 So I spotted I was on LinkedIn as you are 0:03:53.982 --> 0:03:56.822 sort of scrolling through. I follow the Innocence Project on LinkedIn. 0:03:56.822 --> 0:03:59.142 Obviously because of the sort of work I now do, 0:03:59.342 --> 0:04:02.342 and they put up a post about Marcellus Williams and 0:04:02.382 --> 0:04:04.022 the fact that you know, it's a bit of a 0:04:04.022 --> 0:04:07.822 call to action to try and help him, because, for 0:04:07.822 --> 0:04:09.942 those who don't know, the Innocence Project in the United 0:04:09.982 --> 0:04:12.582 States works with people that they believe who have been 0:04:12.582 --> 0:04:15.182 wrongfully convicted, and they work to try and help them 0:04:15.542 --> 0:04:18.382 become exonerated. And he was one of their clients, and 0:04:18.462 --> 0:04:20.182 they put a post up about him, and I sort 0:04:20.182 --> 0:04:22.382 of did a bit of looking into his story, and 0:04:22.422 --> 0:04:24.222 then I reached out to him, as I do with 0:04:24.342 --> 0:04:25.902 most of the men and women who I find who 0:04:25.902 --> 0:04:29.662 are incarcerated, sent him a message. I wasn't sure how 0:04:29.662 --> 0:04:30.862 it was going to go, because I've tried to talk 0:04:30.862 --> 0:04:33.902 to people on death row before, and they're under a 0:04:34.222 --> 0:04:38.342 far more stricter rules than sort of regularly people who 0:04:38.342 --> 0:04:40.902 are incarcerated. So I wasn't sure how I was going 0:04:40.942 --> 0:04:42.702 to go. But and I've never actually spoken to someone 0:04:42.742 --> 0:04:44.582 who'd been given their date like I've reached out to 0:04:44.582 --> 0:04:47.542 people who are on death row, because people spend many, many, many, 0:04:47.542 --> 0:04:50.102 many many many years on death row prior to actually 0:04:50.102 --> 0:04:51.382 be given their date. 0:04:51.502 --> 0:04:53.462 Well decades even yeah, yeah. 0:04:53.302 --> 0:04:56.182 I mean some people even die on death row of 0:04:56.262 --> 0:04:58.542 old age before they even get to the you know, 0:04:58.822 --> 0:05:01.102 the death sentence. So he was the first person that 0:05:01.102 --> 0:05:02.822 I had come across who actually been given this date. 0:05:02.862 --> 0:05:04.782 So I sent him a message and sort of introduced 0:05:04.822 --> 0:05:06.702 myself and told him what I do and I would 0:05:06.742 --> 0:05:10.062 love to talk to him, and he said, yeah, happy 0:05:10.062 --> 0:05:11.702 to sort of to you. I will give you a call. 0:05:12.302 --> 0:05:14.502 And again I wasn't sure how that worked because most 0:05:14.542 --> 0:05:17.342 of the people I speak to they use the sort 0:05:17.342 --> 0:05:20.582 of phones in the wreck room, you know, the phones 0:05:20.582 --> 0:05:21.942 in there, and they call me from there. So I 0:05:21.982 --> 0:05:23.702 knew he wouldn't be in that situation. I knew he 0:05:23.702 --> 0:05:25.582 would be in his cell, so I wasn't sure whether 0:05:25.582 --> 0:05:27.422 they'd take him out of his cell to use a phone. 0:05:27.542 --> 0:05:30.302 But anyway, long story short, he calls me. You know, 0:05:30.422 --> 0:05:32.382 I said, I'll say how we're speaking at the moment. 0:05:32.422 --> 0:05:35.742 He said it whenever someone gets given their date, as in, 0:05:35.902 --> 0:05:37.262 you know, this is your final date, this will be 0:05:37.302 --> 0:05:39.782 your execution, which was for him was for three months time. 0:05:40.422 --> 0:05:42.782 One of the so called privileges they get, I guess, 0:05:42.942 --> 0:05:46.342 is as a phone permanently in their room, which they're 0:05:46.382 --> 0:05:49.742 allowed to use to call loved ones. I suppose attorneys. 0:05:49.982 --> 0:05:51.782 So yeah, so he literally had a phone within his 0:05:52.262 --> 0:05:54.662 within his cell, and he was essentially confined to his 0:05:54.702 --> 0:05:56.942 cell and that was it. I said to him, like, 0:05:57.102 --> 0:05:59.382 you the only person on the row as they call it, 0:05:59.422 --> 0:06:00.742 at the moment. He goes, no, No, he's a guy 0:06:00.782 --> 0:06:03.182 next to me, mister house. He said, he's got his 0:06:03.302 --> 0:06:04.862 date actually for next Tuesday. 0:06:05.462 --> 0:06:05.662 Wow. 0:06:05.662 --> 0:06:08.062 And that was a real sobering like thing that his 0:06:08.182 --> 0:06:11.702 next door neighbor was up for his eight following Tuesday 0:06:11.742 --> 0:06:14.902 and this mister hows and gentleman was killed the following Tuesday. 0:06:15.062 --> 0:06:17.342 So yeah, so that's basically how it all came about. 0:06:17.542 --> 0:06:19.622 Well, it really would be a privilege then having that 0:06:19.702 --> 0:06:21.902 phone when you're so alone, and all of a sudden 0:06:21.942 --> 0:06:23.822 you've got this lifeline to the outside world that you 0:06:23.862 --> 0:06:25.702 can use, I'm assuming whenever you want. 0:06:26.422 --> 0:06:28.422 Yeah, I believe it was a case of using when 0:06:28.422 --> 0:06:30.622 you're over ever you're on. Because people are incarcerated, they 0:06:30.662 --> 0:06:33.182 do have access to phones, but there's obviously a time 0:06:33.222 --> 0:06:36.222 period where they have access to those phones. They're switched 0:06:36.262 --> 0:06:38.342 on and switched off. You know, they can't use them 0:06:38.422 --> 0:06:40.622 during what they call count times. Obviously they go around 0:06:40.662 --> 0:06:43.382 and make sure everybody is there and no one's decided 0:06:43.422 --> 0:06:46.182 to leave the prison a certain amount of time. Some 0:06:46.582 --> 0:06:48.742 facilities give them fifteen minutes to talk and then it 0:06:48.822 --> 0:06:51.342 just cuts them off. Some are thirty minutes, others are 0:06:51.342 --> 0:06:54.702 ten minutes and then they have to wait that alloted 0:06:54.702 --> 0:06:56.702 time again before they can use the phone again. To 0:06:56.702 --> 0:06:59.182 stop people obviously using the phones. There's other people I 0:06:59.182 --> 0:07:02.022 talked to incarcerated who can't use the phones because gangs 0:07:02.062 --> 0:07:05.302 control the phones. So the fact he had his own phone, yeah, 0:07:05.422 --> 0:07:08.502 was essentially it was a privilege, you know, But I 0:07:08.502 --> 0:07:10.422 mean that privilege came with the fact that he was 0:07:10.542 --> 0:07:12.502 going to die in three months, so you know, it's 0:07:12.542 --> 0:07:15.182 a odd privilege, shall we say? 0:07:15.342 --> 0:07:18.902 Yeah, of course, how many conversations did you have with him? 0:07:18.942 --> 0:07:22.102 And what kind of rapport did you build with this man? 0:07:22.982 --> 0:07:25.782 Actually far less of a rapport with him than most 0:07:25.822 --> 0:07:27.542 of the men and we might speak to purely because 0:07:27.542 --> 0:07:30.662 of you know, the situation he was in. We I 0:07:30.662 --> 0:07:32.902 only spoke on the phone once. I did try and 0:07:33.062 --> 0:07:35.702 get back on the phone with him again, but you know, 0:07:35.782 --> 0:07:37.622 he obviously had a bigger fish to fry than speaking 0:07:37.622 --> 0:07:40.822 to some podcast bloke in Australia. But We did have 0:07:40.862 --> 0:07:43.222 a lot of messages backward and forward ya sort of 0:07:43.262 --> 0:07:45.422 email that he had access to a tablet where he 0:07:45.422 --> 0:07:49.582 could send out email via the prison mailing system. So 0:07:49.622 --> 0:07:53.262 we had some messages backward and forward conversations. But it's 0:07:53.502 --> 0:07:56.102 I find my conversations speaker and castro are very difficult, 0:07:57.502 --> 0:07:59.302 knowing the right thing to say and what you know, 0:07:59.342 --> 0:08:02.022 you don't want to say the wrong thing. And it 0:08:02.062 --> 0:08:04.942 was even harder with a man who was in his position, 0:08:05.222 --> 0:08:07.622 because of what do you say? What do you say 0:08:07.662 --> 0:08:10.662 to a man's who's literally been told you're going to 0:08:10.702 --> 0:08:13.342 die on this date at this time. But we had, 0:08:13.422 --> 0:08:14.782 you know, we had some back and forth. I really 0:08:14.862 --> 0:08:17.182 enjoyed my conversation with him on the phone. You know. 0:08:17.222 --> 0:08:20.902 He was a very articulate man, you know, seemed like 0:08:21.062 --> 0:08:23.702 a very nice man. I mean, he was no choir boy. 0:08:24.142 --> 0:08:27.222 You know, he had an extensive record and he openly 0:08:27.262 --> 0:08:29.302 admits to that. You know, so I'm not trying to 0:08:29.302 --> 0:08:31.982 sit here go oh, you know, play the violin sort 0:08:32.022 --> 0:08:33.942 of thing. He did the wrong thing a lot of 0:08:33.942 --> 0:08:37.302 times in his past. I personally, I'm not sure about 0:08:37.342 --> 0:08:39.502 the one he was killed for. I certainly don't believe 0:08:39.542 --> 0:08:41.422 he should have been killed for it. But yeah, I 0:08:41.502 --> 0:08:43.262 enjoyed our conversation, and like I do with most of 0:08:43.262 --> 0:08:45.262 the people are I speak to are incarcerated who you know, 0:08:45.302 --> 0:08:47.782 I enjoy my conversations with these people because you know, 0:08:48.022 --> 0:08:49.862 they're deep thinkers a lot of the time, and he 0:08:49.942 --> 0:08:50.742 was a deep thinker. 0:08:51.662 --> 0:08:54.822 Well, as you've alluded to, you speak to so many 0:08:54.862 --> 0:08:58.422 men and women in prison, some of them on death row, 0:08:58.982 --> 0:09:00.902 and a lot of them telling you that they're innocent. 0:09:01.702 --> 0:09:04.302 Have you started to kind of be able to tell 0:09:04.822 --> 0:09:07.462 if they're telling the truth or if you believe that 0:09:07.462 --> 0:09:08.422 they're telling the truth. 0:09:08.702 --> 0:09:10.942 Yeah, it's funny should I say, because one of my 0:09:10.982 --> 0:09:13.662 recent episodes I covered this, Because you know, I do 0:09:13.742 --> 0:09:15.702 get a lot of people telling me, telling me that 0:09:15.702 --> 0:09:17.782 they're innocent, and so many people say to me, oh, 0:09:17.822 --> 0:09:19.582 you can't believe them all, And of course I don't 0:09:19.582 --> 0:09:21.942 believe all of them. I don't think I've got the 0:09:21.982 --> 0:09:25.342 answer to who is truly innocent and who is you know, guilty, 0:09:25.342 --> 0:09:26.662 Because obviously I talk to a lot of people who 0:09:26.662 --> 0:09:28.422 say they're innocent. I believe a number of them. I 0:09:28.462 --> 0:09:31.422 wholehelfly billion. I believe a number of them, But I 0:09:31.822 --> 0:09:34.462 sort of found this sort of tell with people who 0:09:34.502 --> 0:09:37.262 I think are more genuine should I say, as opposed 0:09:37.262 --> 0:09:40.182 to absolutely in this but more genuine, and that is 0:09:40.222 --> 0:09:42.982 that they their empathy because the way I see it, 0:09:43.422 --> 0:09:44.622 you know, a lot of the people I'm talking to 0:09:44.702 --> 0:09:48.422 have been committed for the crime of murder, and that 0:09:48.502 --> 0:09:51.102 to me is a very selfish act in itself. Yeah, 0:09:51.142 --> 0:09:53.822 you know, people who commit murder have done it as 0:09:53.822 --> 0:09:55.622 a selfish you know, it's just a selfish act. It is, 0:09:55.622 --> 0:10:00.022 whether monetary purposes, because of anger over whatever it was. 0:10:00.142 --> 0:10:02.702 It's a selfish act. And there's people who I talk 0:10:02.782 --> 0:10:05.542 to who have been convicted of that crime who say 0:10:05.582 --> 0:10:08.542 they're innocent, and it's all about them. It's them, them, them, them, 0:10:08.862 --> 0:10:11.422 I'm innocent. I will I'll prove my innocent's all, you know, 0:10:11.502 --> 0:10:13.462 I'll show them when I get out of here. Blah 0:10:13.462 --> 0:10:16.062 blah blah, you know what. And it's it's very intense. 0:10:16.102 --> 0:10:18.862 And that the people who say they're innocent, who I 0:10:18.902 --> 0:10:22.942 find more genuine they asked me about myself. You know, 0:10:23.342 --> 0:10:25.302 there's a guy called Tarek mcpool who have spoken to 0:10:25.342 --> 0:10:27.342 and this is actually in his episode I talked about 0:10:27.342 --> 0:10:30.142 this because you know, every message you would send me 0:10:30.142 --> 0:10:32.022 would ask me about my family, and you know, my 0:10:32.102 --> 0:10:34.422 father was very sick when we were talking, and he 0:10:34.462 --> 0:10:36.942 would ask me about how my father's going, and just 0:10:36.982 --> 0:10:38.782 a lot of empathy there. And when you spoke to 0:10:38.822 --> 0:10:42.342 them on the phone, very quietly spoken, very apathetic, very 0:10:42.782 --> 0:10:44.582 you know, there was empathy there. 0:10:44.662 --> 0:10:46.062 Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. 0:10:46.182 --> 0:10:48.942 Yeah, that's one little tell I think I've got. 0:10:49.302 --> 0:10:51.822 Did you get any of those tells with Marcella's. 0:10:51.822 --> 0:10:55.222 Ah, he actually he did. He sent me one of 0:10:55.302 --> 0:10:58.822 his messages asking me about because again, my father was 0:10:59.022 --> 0:11:00.302 my father was sick for a long time. So I 0:11:00.342 --> 0:11:02.862 was saying, mother, I was sick. And you know, I 0:11:02.982 --> 0:11:04.822 do try and build a rapport with these men and 0:11:04.862 --> 0:11:07.222 women I speak to, and I'm very comfortable talking about 0:11:07.382 --> 0:11:09.702 my personal life with them because I'm asking them to 0:11:09.742 --> 0:11:12.662 share with me their life, so I'm you know, I 0:11:12.702 --> 0:11:15.782 share myself as well. And he did ask about my father, 0:11:15.862 --> 0:11:17.622 said my father would be in his prayers because he's 0:11:17.662 --> 0:11:20.262 a very religious man. You know, he'd he'd become a 0:11:20.342 --> 0:11:23.342 Muslim while in prison, So there was that, and he 0:11:23.382 --> 0:11:25.742 was a nice, softly spoken man. And you know, again 0:11:25.862 --> 0:11:27.782 that's not doesn't mean much, you know, because I'm sure 0:11:27.782 --> 0:11:29.862 there's serial killers out there that were softly spoken people. 0:11:30.102 --> 0:11:32.062 But yeah, I just I just got a sense of, 0:11:32.542 --> 0:11:35.102 you know, not an angry man, which you would expect 0:11:35.102 --> 0:11:36.862 someone to be, I suppose, you. 0:11:36.822 --> 0:11:38.182 Know, if they're preparing to die. 0:11:38.342 --> 0:11:40.382 Yeah, yeah, and not in that. There's people I speak 0:11:40.382 --> 0:11:42.182 to who have been wrongful in charscer that I know, 0:11:42.422 --> 0:11:44.742 I truly believe a wrongfully incarcrot because if you look 0:11:44.742 --> 0:11:47.182 at their case and it's a no brainer and they're 0:11:47.462 --> 0:11:49.662 not as angry as they should be in my opinion, 0:11:49.782 --> 0:11:52.222 Like there's a gentleman, ever Esa Salis Junior, who actually 0:11:52.262 --> 0:11:55.102 we may have spoken about we did previously and he's 0:11:55.142 --> 0:11:57.262 been exonerated now, and he was the same, you know, 0:11:57.422 --> 0:12:01.062 just so empathetic, so calm, thoughtful, like he was looking 0:12:01.102 --> 0:12:04.222 at it, you know, in a very philosophical way and 0:12:04.262 --> 0:12:07.262 you're like, how are you doing this? Whereas there's other 0:12:07.262 --> 0:12:09.222 people are just angry and they're just like, I will 0:12:09.262 --> 0:12:12.822 prove my innocence, you know, just like wow, Okay, So yeah, 0:12:12.942 --> 0:12:15.902 I did feel that with Marcello's that sort of you know, gentle, 0:12:15.982 --> 0:12:19.102 sort of thought full, philosophical side of it. 0:12:19.462 --> 0:12:22.062 Let's go back to the start. What kind of upbringing 0:12:22.142 --> 0:12:23.142 did Marcellus have? 0:12:24.022 --> 0:12:28.262 So he grows up in Missouri, in Saint Louis. He's 0:12:28.342 --> 0:12:32.022 the third of four boys. He grew up in his 0:12:32.062 --> 0:12:35.742 grandparents home with his mother. No father figure that in 0:12:35.822 --> 0:12:38.542 his life, apart from his grandfather, who said, you know, 0:12:38.702 --> 0:12:40.982 was a hard worker and were working to take care 0:12:41.022 --> 0:12:42.742 of the family. But no real sort of solid like 0:12:42.942 --> 0:12:44.982 his father wasn't in his life. He sort of says, 0:12:45.022 --> 0:12:47.542 his childhood was happy. I mean they were poor, but 0:12:47.622 --> 0:12:50.022 he said that you know, they never went without food 0:12:50.102 --> 0:12:52.462 or anything like that. So from a young age there 0:12:52.542 --> 0:12:54.822 was you know, apart from having no father, said the 0:12:54.822 --> 0:12:57.342 family was close, tight knit family. You know, there was 0:12:57.382 --> 0:13:00.102 no from what he told me, there's no abuse or 0:13:00.102 --> 0:13:03.462 anything like that, just poverty. Really, he said it was 0:13:03.462 --> 0:13:06.022 when he got to his teens that he started going 0:13:06.022 --> 0:13:08.742 a little bit wayward, as a lot of people do. 0:13:08.782 --> 0:13:10.262 I suppose when you're a teenager and you want to 0:13:10.262 --> 0:13:12.022 se the boundaries and all that sort of stuff. And 0:13:12.102 --> 0:13:15.062 he said, you know, he started seeing people with things, 0:13:15.622 --> 0:13:18.702 you know, nice clothes and that sort of stuff and 0:13:18.822 --> 0:13:22.782 started wanting for those things, and he essentially started just 0:13:22.862 --> 0:13:26.302 going the wrong way. About obtaining those nice things, and 0:13:26.382 --> 0:13:29.302 you know that came in the form of burglaries and 0:13:29.862 --> 0:13:32.742 bits and pieces. And in fact, he found himself incarcerated 0:13:32.782 --> 0:13:34.582 for the first time in nineteen eighty eight at the 0:13:34.582 --> 0:13:35.782 age of eighteen. 0:13:36.182 --> 0:13:40.302 Yeah. Well, because he had about sixteen convictions prior to 0:13:40.342 --> 0:13:41.982 being arrested for the murder. 0:13:42.142 --> 0:13:44.942 Yeah, he was in and out, in and out. So 0:13:44.982 --> 0:13:47.262 he goes in in nineteen eighty eight. I believe he 0:13:47.382 --> 0:13:49.982 did about a year on that one and was out 0:13:50.102 --> 0:13:53.302 in the end of eighty nine. And that one was 0:13:53.382 --> 0:13:55.662 for So when they say, you know, sixteen charges, there's 0:13:55.702 --> 0:13:58.302 probably multiple charges because the first time he goes in 0:13:58.342 --> 0:14:02.422 there was a motor vehicle burglary charge and assault on 0:14:02.502 --> 0:14:03.702 a police officer. 0:14:03.622 --> 0:14:05.102 Which is probably wrapped up to one. 0:14:05.222 --> 0:14:07.702 Yeah, yeah conviction. He had multiple charges in that. And 0:14:07.742 --> 0:14:10.262 then when he came out, he says, he gets he 0:14:10.302 --> 0:14:12.222 got a job, and he started actually going to a 0:14:12.262 --> 0:14:15.822 trade school. He had a partner, and then his first 0:14:15.902 --> 0:14:18.782 child came along at that stage, so he was trying 0:14:18.822 --> 0:14:21.462 to work to be better and to not go down 0:14:21.502 --> 0:14:24.102 that route. But he said, eventually the pool of the 0:14:24.142 --> 0:14:28.262 criminality just again easy money as opposed to know what 0:14:28.302 --> 0:14:30.182 he was trying to do to get ahead with his family, 0:14:30.462 --> 0:14:33.222 and he ends up basically back in prison. I think 0:14:33.222 --> 0:14:35.542 it was January of nineteen ninety So he wasn't out 0:14:35.542 --> 0:14:38.102 for very long and he was back in again, and 0:14:38.142 --> 0:14:40.982 that was for a seven year stretch. So again multitude 0:14:40.982 --> 0:14:43.422 of charge is involved in that one as well. And 0:14:43.462 --> 0:14:45.262 then he comes out of prison and then again he's 0:14:45.542 --> 0:14:47.622 not out for very long at all, and he was 0:14:47.662 --> 0:14:50.982 back into prison in nineteen ninety eight, and then they 0:14:51.022 --> 0:14:52.142 he was never released again. 0:14:52.662 --> 0:14:55.662 So the body of Felicia Gail was found stabbed in 0:14:55.702 --> 0:14:59.342 her apartment in the August of nineteen ninety eight. Firstly, 0:14:59.382 --> 0:15:00.502 what do we know about her? 0:15:00.942 --> 0:15:04.742 So newspaper reporter, was a newspaper reporter, but a social 0:15:04.782 --> 0:15:09.022 worker as well. She was married essentially, you know, a 0:15:09.022 --> 0:15:12.822 lovely person, did no wrong, you know, she was just 0:15:12.862 --> 0:15:15.382 an all round lovely person, you know, and that's I think, 0:15:15.422 --> 0:15:17.582 you know. And they lived in her and her husband 0:15:17.582 --> 0:15:20.502 lived in a reasonably affluent part of town, you know. 0:15:20.542 --> 0:15:22.502 And this is why again it caused so much uproar, 0:15:22.542 --> 0:15:25.342 because not only was this a murder, but it was 0:15:25.462 --> 0:15:28.022 quite a brutal murder. I mean, I think she was 0:15:28.022 --> 0:15:30.862 stabbed over forty times, maybe forty two times she was 0:15:30.902 --> 0:15:33.382 she was stabbed, so of course, I mean, you know, 0:15:33.662 --> 0:15:36.822 the community was just in uproar about that situation. How 0:15:36.862 --> 0:15:39.462 this lady can be just at home. You know, she 0:15:39.542 --> 0:15:41.862 was reportedly in the shower. I've got out of the 0:15:41.902 --> 0:15:44.542 shower and that's when she was brutally stabbed. I mean, 0:15:44.582 --> 0:15:47.742 forty two times is obviously horrific. Yeah, it's insanity. 0:15:51.142 --> 0:15:54.822 You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. 0:15:55.182 --> 0:15:58.902 I'm speaking with journalist Jack Lawrence about the execution of 0:15:58.982 --> 0:16:02.502 Marcellus Williams. Up next, we talk about the evidence that 0:16:02.582 --> 0:16:04.662 was left at the crime scene and how it was 0:16:04.742 --> 0:16:11.182 used to convict Williams of murder. Do we know anything 0:16:11.182 --> 0:16:13.542 about the crime scene, whether there was any evidence. 0:16:14.102 --> 0:16:16.542 Well, this is a thing, and this is why this 0:16:16.702 --> 0:16:20.502 case has been so I suppose it's caused so much 0:16:20.502 --> 0:16:24.982 attention because of the amount of evidence that was at 0:16:25.022 --> 0:16:30.902 that crime scene that didn't match Marcellus Williams. So we'll start. 0:16:30.942 --> 0:16:32.902 There was hair found, for instance, to start with, So 0:16:32.902 --> 0:16:36.302 there was hair found near Felicia at the time. I 0:16:36.342 --> 0:16:38.542 think some may have been on her and nearby her 0:16:38.782 --> 0:16:42.222 was found. I was tested did not match Marcellus Williams, 0:16:42.262 --> 0:16:44.822 nor did it match her. So the question mark became 0:16:45.062 --> 0:16:49.822 whose hair is that? There was like, apparently a plethora 0:16:49.862 --> 0:16:54.662 of fingerprints, bloody fingerprints, But apparently I've heard different stories 0:16:54.662 --> 0:16:57.822 as opposed to what was the issue with these fingerprints, 0:16:57.902 --> 0:17:01.022 But there was some that stated that basically the prints 0:17:01.022 --> 0:17:02.982 weren't of a good enough quality, any of them to 0:17:03.382 --> 0:17:05.982 actually come up with a match for anyone, let alone 0:17:05.982 --> 0:17:08.982 Marcellus Williams. And then I heard somewhere along the line 0:17:08.982 --> 0:17:11.142 that they may have even just disap here. They've been 0:17:11.142 --> 0:17:14.382 thrown out the evidence that was gathered there. Then you've 0:17:14.422 --> 0:17:18.622 got a bloody footprint that it was pointing in the 0:17:18.622 --> 0:17:21.062 direction of leaving the scene of the crime, which was 0:17:21.582 --> 0:17:24.622 again tested against Marcellus for the size. Obviously they could 0:17:24.662 --> 0:17:26.742 get a good idea of the size of the footprint, 0:17:26.902 --> 0:17:29.982 and it was too small to be Marcellus's foot. So 0:17:30.022 --> 0:17:32.702 again the question is, well, who's made that bloody footprint? 0:17:32.982 --> 0:17:35.222 You know? But the biggest one, of course is the knife. 0:17:35.662 --> 0:17:39.702 The knife that killed Felicia was left still in her view. 0:17:39.822 --> 0:17:41.982 She had the knife still in it when they found her, 0:17:42.222 --> 0:17:44.782 and that was obviously the biggest piece of evidence. But 0:17:45.062 --> 0:17:48.622 the weird thing was that was never tested for DNA 0:17:49.382 --> 0:17:51.742 or anything at the time. For some reason, that was 0:17:51.782 --> 0:17:54.422 just never tested and it wasn't until later down the 0:17:54.462 --> 0:17:58.822 track that that knife would actually be tested. And that 0:17:58.902 --> 0:18:01.622 was the biggest conjecture about this whole case, because initially 0:18:01.622 --> 0:18:05.862 it comes back that Marcellus has been excluded from that knife, 0:18:06.182 --> 0:18:08.382 like his DNA is just not on there. But then 0:18:09.542 --> 0:18:12.862 there was DNA on that and the biggest thing that 0:18:12.902 --> 0:18:16.182 came out was it belonged to one of the prosecutors 0:18:16.182 --> 0:18:18.782 in the case. And then he eventually actually had had 0:18:18.822 --> 0:18:21.662 an evidentiary hearing that was had not that long ago. 0:18:22.382 --> 0:18:26.302 He admitted to mishandling the murder weapon, handling it without 0:18:26.302 --> 0:18:29.542 gloves basically, and he wasn't the only one. Multiple people 0:18:29.582 --> 0:18:32.902 had done it. So in fact, they destroyed any chance 0:18:32.902 --> 0:18:35.582 of ever working out whether Marcellus's DNA was on that 0:18:36.062 --> 0:18:39.622 knife or not. And the prosecutor's office, you know, openly 0:18:39.622 --> 0:18:41.382 put their hands up and said, you know what, this 0:18:41.582 --> 0:18:44.302 is completely we've messed up here. This is you know, 0:18:44.382 --> 0:18:46.662 blah blah blah, and they actually spoke, They actually made 0:18:46.662 --> 0:18:51.262 a deal with Marcellus's defense team to commute his sentence 0:18:51.262 --> 0:18:53.662 from death to life in prison. Marcellus wasn't going to 0:18:53.742 --> 0:18:56.502 admit to have committed this crime, but they said, look, 0:18:56.582 --> 0:18:59.582 we will agree to commute this down to a life 0:18:59.622 --> 0:19:02.502 sentence and take away the death penalty. He agreed to 0:19:02.542 --> 0:19:05.102 that because obviously you can't fight your case if you're dead, 0:19:05.502 --> 0:19:08.302 So he agreed to that, hoping that they could continue 0:19:08.342 --> 0:19:10.302 the fight and eventually something will come out that will 0:19:10.462 --> 0:19:13.662 fully exonerating It. Was like the best of a bad situation, really, 0:19:13.782 --> 0:19:17.382 but unfortunately the Attorney General of Missouri got involved and 0:19:17.382 --> 0:19:21.062 fought that, and the High Court came back and reinstated 0:19:21.062 --> 0:19:21.742 the death penalty. 0:19:22.222 --> 0:19:25.062 I want to get to that series of events in 0:19:25.142 --> 0:19:28.302