1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mumma Mia podcast. Mamma Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:30,062 Speaker 1: recorded on It's a Tuesday evening on the twenty fourth 4 00:00:30,102 --> 00:00:33,502 Speaker 1: of September twenty twenty four in the American state of Missouri, 5 00:00:33,942 --> 00:00:38,502 Speaker 1: and Marcellus Williams is preparing to die. He's been sentenced 6 00:00:38,502 --> 00:00:41,422 Speaker 1: to death by lethal injection for the stubbing murder of 7 00:00:41,462 --> 00:00:44,582 Speaker 1: Felicia Gale, a local reporter who was found dead in 8 00:00:44,582 --> 00:00:48,502 Speaker 1: her home in nineteen ninety eight. Williams has been on 9 00:00:48,582 --> 00:00:52,222 Speaker 1: death row since two thousand and one, but doubt has 10 00:00:52,262 --> 00:00:56,262 Speaker 1: been cast over his guilt, a lot of doubt. The 11 00:00:56,302 --> 00:01:00,262 Speaker 1: fifty five year old's lawyers, the victim's family, the prosecution, 12 00:01:00,742 --> 00:01:04,382 Speaker 1: and the jurors who convicted him have all admitted he 13 00:01:04,502 --> 00:01:08,622 Speaker 1: may not be guilty, but those in charge aren't listening. 14 00:01:10,662 --> 00:01:14,942 Speaker 1: The governor has denied appeals, the Supreme Court hasn't intervened, 15 00:01:15,662 --> 00:01:20,422 Speaker 1: and so here we are. Williams has consumed his final 16 00:01:20,502 --> 00:01:24,022 Speaker 1: meal of choice, chicken wings and tater tots, and said 17 00:01:24,062 --> 00:01:28,342 Speaker 1: his final words, all Praise be to Allah. In every situation. 18 00:01:29,822 --> 00:01:35,342 Speaker 1: He is pronounced dead at exactly six ' ten PM. 19 00:01:35,382 --> 00:01:38,702 Speaker 1: But what does the evidence show? Should Williams have been spared? 20 00:01:39,782 --> 00:01:48,462 Speaker 1: Did Missouri just execute an innocent man? I'm Jemma Bath 21 00:01:48,622 --> 00:01:51,342 Speaker 1: and this is True Crime Conversations, a mum of Mere 22 00:01:51,382 --> 00:01:55,302 Speaker 1: podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to 23 00:01:55,342 --> 00:01:58,462 Speaker 1: the people who know the most about them. Marcellus Williams 24 00:01:58,542 --> 00:02:01,862 Speaker 1: was the one hundredth person executed in Missouri since nineteen 25 00:02:01,902 --> 00:02:06,102 Speaker 1: eighty nine. Officials from the Missouri Department of Corrections addressed 26 00:02:06,102 --> 00:02:07,102 Speaker 1: the media after his. 27 00:02:07,142 --> 00:02:10,622 Speaker 2: Death, we hope this gives finality to a case has 28 00:02:10,702 --> 00:02:15,582 Speaker 2: languished for decades, revictimizing miss Gale's family over and over again. 29 00:02:16,662 --> 00:02:20,382 Speaker 2: No juror nor judge has ever found Williams innocent's claim 30 00:02:20,462 --> 00:02:24,222 Speaker 2: to be credible. Thus the order of execution has been 31 00:02:24,262 --> 00:02:24,782 Speaker 2: carried out. 32 00:02:25,542 --> 00:02:28,982 Speaker 1: What this press conference fails to address is the mounting 33 00:02:29,062 --> 00:02:32,822 Speaker 1: evidence that suggested that Williams case wasn't as water tight 34 00:02:33,302 --> 00:02:36,062 Speaker 1: as this statement by Governor Mike Parson made it sound. 35 00:02:36,742 --> 00:02:40,422 Speaker 1: Even if Williams was guilty, what those fighting to save 36 00:02:40,462 --> 00:02:44,422 Speaker 1: his life insisted was there was reasonable doubt in this 37 00:02:44,502 --> 00:02:49,382 Speaker 1: conviction that alone should have saved his life. Three months 38 00:02:49,422 --> 00:02:52,142 Speaker 1: before his execution, host and creator of the true crime 39 00:02:52,142 --> 00:02:55,822 Speaker 1: podcast One Minute Remaining, Jack Lawrence spoke to Williams on 40 00:02:55,862 --> 00:02:56,742 Speaker 1: the phone from prison. 41 00:02:56,902 --> 00:03:00,222 Speaker 3: There's obviously people in the community who would you listen 42 00:03:00,222 --> 00:03:03,022 Speaker 3: to your story and people would turn around and say, oh, well, 43 00:03:03,062 --> 00:03:04,782 Speaker 3: you know, this guy was a career criminal, he was 44 00:03:04,942 --> 00:03:06,902 Speaker 3: out of prison. You know, why should we trust what 45 00:03:06,942 --> 00:03:07,382 Speaker 3: he says? 46 00:03:07,582 --> 00:03:10,662 Speaker 4: Well, marvais Mons would be you know, if you believe 47 00:03:10,822 --> 00:03:14,382 Speaker 4: in democracy, and you believe in the justice system that's 48 00:03:14,382 --> 00:03:18,302 Speaker 4: set up in this country, then you understand that the 49 00:03:18,422 --> 00:03:21,462 Speaker 4: rule of law is supposed to governing in regardless of 50 00:03:21,902 --> 00:03:24,222 Speaker 4: whatever I was going through. Those choices that I made 51 00:03:24,302 --> 00:03:28,142 Speaker 4: in those other cases have absolutely nothing to do with 52 00:03:28,502 --> 00:03:29,062 Speaker 4: this case. 53 00:03:29,102 --> 00:03:29,342 Speaker 1: Here. 54 00:03:29,422 --> 00:03:31,702 Speaker 4: Everything is supposed to be just in the light in 55 00:03:31,742 --> 00:03:33,662 Speaker 4: which they come and being presented to people. 56 00:03:34,302 --> 00:03:36,982 Speaker 1: After speaking to Williams and getting to know him, Jack 57 00:03:37,102 --> 00:03:42,902 Speaker 1: also joins the fight to save his life. Jack joins us, Now, Jack, 58 00:03:42,942 --> 00:03:46,742 Speaker 1: how did you find yourself chatting to Marcellus Williams from 59 00:03:46,782 --> 00:03:49,462 Speaker 1: prison mere months before his execution? 60 00:03:50,302 --> 00:03:53,302 Speaker 3: So I spotted I was on LinkedIn as you are 61 00:03:53,982 --> 00:03:56,822 Speaker 3: sort of scrolling through. I follow the Innocence Project on LinkedIn. 62 00:03:56,822 --> 00:03:59,142 Speaker 3: Obviously because of the sort of work I now do, 63 00:03:59,342 --> 00:04:02,342 Speaker 3: and they put up a post about Marcellus Williams and 64 00:04:02,382 --> 00:04:04,022 Speaker 3: the fact that you know, it's a bit of a 65 00:04:04,022 --> 00:04:07,822 Speaker 3: call to action to try and help him, because, for 66 00:04:07,822 --> 00:04:09,942 Speaker 3: those who don't know, the Innocence Project in the United 67 00:04:09,982 --> 00:04:12,582 Speaker 3: States works with people that they believe who have been 68 00:04:12,582 --> 00:04:15,182 Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted, and they work to try and help them 69 00:04:15,542 --> 00:04:18,382 Speaker 3: become exonerated. And he was one of their clients, and 70 00:04:18,462 --> 00:04:20,182 Speaker 3: they put a post up about him, and I sort 71 00:04:20,182 --> 00:04:22,382 Speaker 3: of did a bit of looking into his story, and 72 00:04:22,422 --> 00:04:24,222 Speaker 3: then I reached out to him, as I do with 73 00:04:24,342 --> 00:04:25,902 Speaker 3: most of the men and women who I find who 74 00:04:25,902 --> 00:04:29,662 Speaker 3: are incarcerated, sent him a message. I wasn't sure how 75 00:04:29,662 --> 00:04:30,862 Speaker 3: it was going to go, because I've tried to talk 76 00:04:30,862 --> 00:04:33,902 Speaker 3: to people on death row before, and they're under a 77 00:04:34,222 --> 00:04:38,342 Speaker 3: far more stricter rules than sort of regularly people who 78 00:04:38,342 --> 00:04:40,902 Speaker 3: are incarcerated. So I wasn't sure how I was going 79 00:04:40,942 --> 00:04:42,702 Speaker 3: to go. But and I've never actually spoken to someone 80 00:04:42,742 --> 00:04:44,582 Speaker 3: who'd been given their date like I've reached out to 81 00:04:44,582 --> 00:04:47,542 Speaker 3: people who are on death row, because people spend many, many, many, 82 00:04:47,542 --> 00:04:50,102 Speaker 3: many many many years on death row prior to actually 83 00:04:50,102 --> 00:04:51,382 Speaker 3: be given their date. 84 00:04:51,502 --> 00:04:53,462 Speaker 1: Well decades even yeah, yeah. 85 00:04:53,302 --> 00:04:56,182 Speaker 3: I mean some people even die on death row of 86 00:04:56,262 --> 00:04:58,542 Speaker 3: old age before they even get to the you know, 87 00:04:58,822 --> 00:05:01,102 Speaker 3: the death sentence. So he was the first person that 88 00:05:01,102 --> 00:05:02,822 Speaker 3: I had come across who actually been given this date. 89 00:05:02,862 --> 00:05:04,782 Speaker 3: So I sent him a message and sort of introduced 90 00:05:04,822 --> 00:05:06,702 Speaker 3: myself and told him what I do and I would 91 00:05:06,742 --> 00:05:10,062 Speaker 3: love to talk to him, and he said, yeah, happy 92 00:05:10,062 --> 00:05:11,702 Speaker 3: to sort of to you. I will give you a call. 93 00:05:12,302 --> 00:05:14,502 Speaker 3: And again I wasn't sure how that worked because most 94 00:05:14,542 --> 00:05:17,342 Speaker 3: of the people I speak to they use the sort 95 00:05:17,342 --> 00:05:20,582 Speaker 3: of phones in the wreck room, you know, the phones 96 00:05:20,582 --> 00:05:21,942 Speaker 3: in there, and they call me from there. So I 97 00:05:21,982 --> 00:05:23,702 Speaker 3: knew he wouldn't be in that situation. I knew he 98 00:05:23,702 --> 00:05:25,582 Speaker 3: would be in his cell, so I wasn't sure whether 99 00:05:25,582 --> 00:05:27,422 Speaker 3: they'd take him out of his cell to use a phone. 100 00:05:27,542 --> 00:05:30,302 Speaker 3: But anyway, long story short, he calls me. You know, 101 00:05:30,422 --> 00:05:32,382 Speaker 3: I said, I'll say how we're speaking at the moment. 102 00:05:32,422 --> 00:05:35,742 Speaker 3: He said it whenever someone gets given their date, as in, 103 00:05:35,902 --> 00:05:37,262 Speaker 3: you know, this is your final date, this will be 104 00:05:37,302 --> 00:05:39,782 Speaker 3: your execution, which was for him was for three months time. 105 00:05:40,422 --> 00:05:42,782 Speaker 3: One of the so called privileges they get, I guess, 106 00:05:42,942 --> 00:05:46,342 Speaker 3: is as a phone permanently in their room, which they're 107 00:05:46,382 --> 00:05:49,742 Speaker 3: allowed to use to call loved ones. I suppose attorneys. 108 00:05:49,982 --> 00:05:51,782 Speaker 3: So yeah, so he literally had a phone within his 109 00:05:52,262 --> 00:05:54,662 Speaker 3: within his cell, and he was essentially confined to his 110 00:05:54,702 --> 00:05:56,942 Speaker 3: cell and that was it. I said to him, like, 111 00:05:57,102 --> 00:05:59,382 Speaker 3: you the only person on the row as they call it, 112 00:05:59,422 --> 00:06:00,742 Speaker 3: at the moment. He goes, no, No, he's a guy 113 00:06:00,782 --> 00:06:03,182 Speaker 3: next to me, mister house. He said, he's got his 114 00:06:03,302 --> 00:06:04,862 Speaker 3: date actually for next Tuesday. 115 00:06:05,462 --> 00:06:05,662 Speaker 1: Wow. 116 00:06:05,662 --> 00:06:08,062 Speaker 3: And that was a real sobering like thing that his 117 00:06:08,182 --> 00:06:11,702 Speaker 3: next door neighbor was up for his eight following Tuesday 118 00:06:11,742 --> 00:06:14,902 Speaker 3: and this mister hows and gentleman was killed the following Tuesday. 119 00:06:15,062 --> 00:06:17,342 Speaker 3: So yeah, so that's basically how it all came about. 120 00:06:17,542 --> 00:06:19,622 Speaker 1: Well, it really would be a privilege then having that 121 00:06:19,702 --> 00:06:21,902 Speaker 1: phone when you're so alone, and all of a sudden 122 00:06:21,942 --> 00:06:23,822 Speaker 1: you've got this lifeline to the outside world that you 123 00:06:23,862 --> 00:06:25,702 Speaker 1: can use, I'm assuming whenever you want. 124 00:06:26,422 --> 00:06:28,422 Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe it was a case of using when 125 00:06:28,422 --> 00:06:30,622 Speaker 3: you're over ever you're on. Because people are incarcerated, they 126 00:06:30,662 --> 00:06:33,182 Speaker 3: do have access to phones, but there's obviously a time 127 00:06:33,222 --> 00:06:36,222 Speaker 3: period where they have access to those phones. They're switched 128 00:06:36,262 --> 00:06:38,342 Speaker 3: on and switched off. You know, they can't use them 129 00:06:38,422 --> 00:06:40,622 Speaker 3: during what they call count times. Obviously they go around 130 00:06:40,662 --> 00:06:43,382 Speaker 3: and make sure everybody is there and no one's decided 131 00:06:43,422 --> 00:06:46,182 Speaker 3: to leave the prison a certain amount of time. Some 132 00:06:46,582 --> 00:06:48,742 Speaker 3: facilities give them fifteen minutes to talk and then it 133 00:06:48,822 --> 00:06:51,342 Speaker 3: just cuts them off. Some are thirty minutes, others are 134 00:06:51,342 --> 00:06:54,702 Speaker 3: ten minutes and then they have to wait that alloted 135 00:06:54,702 --> 00:06:56,702 Speaker 3: time again before they can use the phone again. To 136 00:06:56,702 --> 00:06:59,182 Speaker 3: stop people obviously using the phones. There's other people I 137 00:06:59,182 --> 00:07:02,022 Speaker 3: talked to incarcerated who can't use the phones because gangs 138 00:07:02,062 --> 00:07:05,302 Speaker 3: control the phones. So the fact he had his own phone, yeah, 139 00:07:05,422 --> 00:07:08,502 Speaker 3: was essentially it was a privilege, you know, But I 140 00:07:08,502 --> 00:07:10,422 Speaker 3: mean that privilege came with the fact that he was 141 00:07:10,542 --> 00:07:12,502 Speaker 3: going to die in three months, so you know, it's 142 00:07:12,542 --> 00:07:15,182 Speaker 3: a odd privilege, shall we say? 143 00:07:15,342 --> 00:07:18,902 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, how many conversations did you have with him? 144 00:07:18,942 --> 00:07:22,102 Speaker 1: And what kind of rapport did you build with this man? 145 00:07:22,982 --> 00:07:25,782 Speaker 3: Actually far less of a rapport with him than most 146 00:07:25,822 --> 00:07:27,542 Speaker 3: of the men and we might speak to purely because 147 00:07:27,542 --> 00:07:30,662 Speaker 3: of you know, the situation he was in. We I 148 00:07:30,662 --> 00:07:32,902 Speaker 3: only spoke on the phone once. I did try and 149 00:07:33,062 --> 00:07:35,702 Speaker 3: get back on the phone with him again, but you know, 150 00:07:35,782 --> 00:07:37,622 Speaker 3: he obviously had a bigger fish to fry than speaking 151 00:07:37,622 --> 00:07:40,822 Speaker 3: to some podcast bloke in Australia. But We did have 152 00:07:40,862 --> 00:07:43,222 Speaker 3: a lot of messages backward and forward ya sort of 153 00:07:43,262 --> 00:07:45,422 Speaker 3: email that he had access to a tablet where he 154 00:07:45,422 --> 00:07:49,582 Speaker 3: could send out email via the prison mailing system. So 155 00:07:49,622 --> 00:07:53,262 Speaker 3: we had some messages backward and forward conversations. But it's 156 00:07:53,502 --> 00:07:56,102 Speaker 3: I find my conversations speaker and castro are very difficult, 157 00:07:57,502 --> 00:07:59,302 Speaker 3: knowing the right thing to say and what you know, 158 00:07:59,342 --> 00:08:02,022 Speaker 3: you don't want to say the wrong thing. And it 159 00:08:02,062 --> 00:08:04,942 Speaker 3: was even harder with a man who was in his position, 160 00:08:05,222 --> 00:08:07,622 Speaker 3: because of what do you say? What do you say 161 00:08:07,662 --> 00:08:10,662 Speaker 3: to a man's who's literally been told you're going to 162 00:08:10,702 --> 00:08:13,342 Speaker 3: die on this date at this time. But we had, 163 00:08:13,422 --> 00:08:14,782 Speaker 3: you know, we had some back and forth. I really 164 00:08:14,862 --> 00:08:17,182 Speaker 3: enjoyed my conversation with him on the phone. You know. 165 00:08:17,222 --> 00:08:20,902 Speaker 3: He was a very articulate man, you know, seemed like 166 00:08:21,062 --> 00:08:23,702 Speaker 3: a very nice man. I mean, he was no choir boy. 167 00:08:24,142 --> 00:08:27,222 Speaker 3: You know, he had an extensive record and he openly 168 00:08:27,262 --> 00:08:29,302 Speaker 3: admits to that. You know, so I'm not trying to 169 00:08:29,302 --> 00:08:31,982 Speaker 3: sit here go oh, you know, play the violin sort 170 00:08:32,022 --> 00:08:33,942 Speaker 3: of thing. He did the wrong thing a lot of 171 00:08:33,942 --> 00:08:37,302 Speaker 3: times in his past. I personally, I'm not sure about 172 00:08:37,342 --> 00:08:39,502 Speaker 3: the one he was killed for. I certainly don't believe 173 00:08:39,542 --> 00:08:41,422 Speaker 3: he should have been killed for it. But yeah, I 174 00:08:41,502 --> 00:08:43,262 Speaker 3: enjoyed our conversation, and like I do with most of 175 00:08:43,262 --> 00:08:45,262 Speaker 3: the people are I speak to are incarcerated who you know, 176 00:08:45,302 --> 00:08:47,782 Speaker 3: I enjoy my conversations with these people because you know, 177 00:08:48,022 --> 00:08:49,862 Speaker 3: they're deep thinkers a lot of the time, and he 178 00:08:49,942 --> 00:08:50,742 Speaker 3: was a deep thinker. 179 00:08:51,662 --> 00:08:54,822 Speaker 1: Well, as you've alluded to, you speak to so many 180 00:08:54,862 --> 00:08:58,422 Speaker 1: men and women in prison, some of them on death row, 181 00:08:58,982 --> 00:09:00,902 Speaker 1: and a lot of them telling you that they're innocent. 182 00:09:01,702 --> 00:09:04,302 Speaker 1: Have you started to kind of be able to tell 183 00:09:04,822 --> 00:09:07,462 Speaker 1: if they're telling the truth or if you believe that 184 00:09:07,462 --> 00:09:08,422 Speaker 1: they're telling the truth. 185 00:09:08,702 --> 00:09:10,942 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny should I say, because one of my 186 00:09:10,982 --> 00:09:13,662 Speaker 3: recent episodes I covered this, Because you know, I do 187 00:09:13,742 --> 00:09:15,702 Speaker 3: get a lot of people telling me, telling me that 188 00:09:15,702 --> 00:09:17,782 Speaker 3: they're innocent, and so many people say to me, oh, 189 00:09:17,822 --> 00:09:19,582 Speaker 3: you can't believe them all, And of course I don't 190 00:09:19,582 --> 00:09:21,942 Speaker 3: believe all of them. I don't think I've got the 191 00:09:21,982 --> 00:09:25,342 Speaker 3: answer to who is truly innocent and who is you know, guilty, 192 00:09:25,342 --> 00:09:26,662 Speaker 3: Because obviously I talk to a lot of people who 193 00:09:26,662 --> 00:09:28,422 Speaker 3: say they're innocent. I believe a number of them. I 194 00:09:28,462 --> 00:09:31,422 Speaker 3: wholehelfly billion. I believe a number of them, But I 195 00:09:31,822 --> 00:09:34,462 Speaker 3: sort of found this sort of tell with people who 196 00:09:34,502 --> 00:09:37,262 Speaker 3: I think are more genuine should I say, as opposed 197 00:09:37,262 --> 00:09:40,182 Speaker 3: to absolutely in this but more genuine, and that is 198 00:09:40,222 --> 00:09:42,982 Speaker 3: that they their empathy because the way I see it, 199 00:09:43,422 --> 00:09:44,622 Speaker 3: you know, a lot of the people I'm talking to 200 00:09:44,702 --> 00:09:48,422 Speaker 3: have been committed for the crime of murder, and that 201 00:09:48,502 --> 00:09:51,102 Speaker 3: to me is a very selfish act in itself. Yeah, 202 00:09:51,142 --> 00:09:53,822 Speaker 3: you know, people who commit murder have done it as 203 00:09:53,822 --> 00:09:55,622 Speaker 3: a selfish you know, it's just a selfish act. It is, 204 00:09:55,622 --> 00:10:00,022 Speaker 3: whether monetary purposes, because of anger over whatever it was. 205 00:10:00,142 --> 00:10:02,702 Speaker 3: It's a selfish act. And there's people who I talk 206 00:10:02,782 --> 00:10:05,542 Speaker 3: to who have been convicted of that crime who say 207 00:10:05,582 --> 00:10:08,542 Speaker 3: they're innocent, and it's all about them. It's them, them, them, them, 208 00:10:08,862 --> 00:10:11,422 Speaker 3: I'm innocent. I will I'll prove my innocent's all, you know, 209 00:10:11,502 --> 00:10:13,462 Speaker 3: I'll show them when I get out of here. Blah 210 00:10:13,462 --> 00:10:16,062 Speaker 3: blah blah, you know what. And it's it's very intense. 211 00:10:16,102 --> 00:10:18,862 Speaker 3: And that the people who say they're innocent, who I 212 00:10:18,902 --> 00:10:22,942 Speaker 3: find more genuine they asked me about myself. You know, 213 00:10:23,342 --> 00:10:25,302 Speaker 3: there's a guy called Tarek mcpool who have spoken to 214 00:10:25,342 --> 00:10:27,342 Speaker 3: and this is actually in his episode I talked about 215 00:10:27,342 --> 00:10:30,142 Speaker 3: this because you know, every message you would send me 216 00:10:30,142 --> 00:10:32,022 Speaker 3: would ask me about my family, and you know, my 217 00:10:32,102 --> 00:10:34,422 Speaker 3: father was very sick when we were talking, and he 218 00:10:34,462 --> 00:10:36,942 Speaker 3: would ask me about how my father's going, and just 219 00:10:36,982 --> 00:10:38,782 Speaker 3: a lot of empathy there. And when you spoke to 220 00:10:38,822 --> 00:10:42,342 Speaker 3: them on the phone, very quietly spoken, very apathetic, very 221 00:10:42,782 --> 00:10:44,582 Speaker 3: you know, there was empathy there. 222 00:10:44,662 --> 00:10:46,062 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. 223 00:10:46,182 --> 00:10:48,942 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one little tell I think I've got. 224 00:10:49,302 --> 00:10:51,822 Speaker 1: Did you get any of those tells with Marcella's. 225 00:10:51,822 --> 00:10:55,222 Speaker 3: Ah, he actually he did. He sent me one of 226 00:10:55,302 --> 00:10:58,822 Speaker 3: his messages asking me about because again, my father was 227 00:10:59,022 --> 00:11:00,302 Speaker 3: my father was sick for a long time. So I 228 00:11:00,342 --> 00:11:02,862 Speaker 3: was saying, mother, I was sick. And you know, I 229 00:11:02,982 --> 00:11:04,822 Speaker 3: do try and build a rapport with these men and 230 00:11:04,862 --> 00:11:07,222 Speaker 3: women I speak to, and I'm very comfortable talking about 231 00:11:07,382 --> 00:11:09,702 Speaker 3: my personal life with them because I'm asking them to 232 00:11:09,742 --> 00:11:12,662 Speaker 3: share with me their life, so I'm you know, I 233 00:11:12,702 --> 00:11:15,782 Speaker 3: share myself as well. And he did ask about my father, 234 00:11:15,862 --> 00:11:17,622 Speaker 3: said my father would be in his prayers because he's 235 00:11:17,662 --> 00:11:20,262 Speaker 3: a very religious man. You know, he'd he'd become a 236 00:11:20,342 --> 00:11:23,342 Speaker 3: Muslim while in prison, So there was that, and he 237 00:11:23,382 --> 00:11:25,742 Speaker 3: was a nice, softly spoken man. And you know, again 238 00:11:25,862 --> 00:11:27,782 Speaker 3: that's not doesn't mean much, you know, because I'm sure 239 00:11:27,782 --> 00:11:29,862 Speaker 3: there's serial killers out there that were softly spoken people. 240 00:11:30,102 --> 00:11:32,062 Speaker 3: But yeah, I just I just got a sense of, 241 00:11:32,542 --> 00:11:35,102 Speaker 3: you know, not an angry man, which you would expect 242 00:11:35,102 --> 00:11:36,862 Speaker 3: someone to be, I suppose, you. 243 00:11:36,822 --> 00:11:38,182 Speaker 1: Know, if they're preparing to die. 244 00:11:38,342 --> 00:11:40,382 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and not in that. There's people I speak 245 00:11:40,382 --> 00:11:42,182 Speaker 3: to who have been wrongful in charscer that I know, 246 00:11:42,422 --> 00:11:44,742 Speaker 3: I truly believe a wrongfully incarcrot because if you look 247 00:11:44,742 --> 00:11:47,182 Speaker 3: at their case and it's a no brainer and they're 248 00:11:47,462 --> 00:11:49,662 Speaker 3: not as angry as they should be in my opinion, 249 00:11:49,782 --> 00:11:52,222 Speaker 3: Like there's a gentleman, ever Esa Salis Junior, who actually 250 00:11:52,262 --> 00:11:55,102 Speaker 3: we may have spoken about we did previously and he's 251 00:11:55,142 --> 00:11:57,262 Speaker 3: been exonerated now, and he was the same, you know, 252 00:11:57,422 --> 00:12:01,062 Speaker 3: just so empathetic, so calm, thoughtful, like he was looking 253 00:12:01,102 --> 00:12:04,222 Speaker 3: at it, you know, in a very philosophical way and 254 00:12:04,262 --> 00:12:07,262 Speaker 3: you're like, how are you doing this? Whereas there's other 255 00:12:07,262 --> 00:12:09,222 Speaker 3: people are just angry and they're just like, I will 256 00:12:09,262 --> 00:12:12,822 Speaker 3: prove my innocence, you know, just like wow, Okay, So yeah, 257 00:12:12,942 --> 00:12:15,902 Speaker 3: I did feel that with Marcello's that sort of you know, gentle, 258 00:12:15,982 --> 00:12:19,102 Speaker 3: sort of thought full, philosophical side of it. 259 00:12:19,462 --> 00:12:22,062 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the start. What kind of upbringing 260 00:12:22,142 --> 00:12:23,142 Speaker 1: did Marcellus have? 261 00:12:24,022 --> 00:12:28,262 Speaker 3: So he grows up in Missouri, in Saint Louis. He's 262 00:12:28,342 --> 00:12:32,022 Speaker 3: the third of four boys. He grew up in his 263 00:12:32,062 --> 00:12:35,742 Speaker 3: grandparents home with his mother. No father figure that in 264 00:12:35,822 --> 00:12:38,542 Speaker 3: his life, apart from his grandfather, who said, you know, 265 00:12:38,702 --> 00:12:40,982 Speaker 3: was a hard worker and were working to take care 266 00:12:41,022 --> 00:12:42,742 Speaker 3: of the family. But no real sort of solid like 267 00:12:42,942 --> 00:12:44,982 Speaker 3: his father wasn't in his life. He sort of says, 268 00:12:45,022 --> 00:12:47,542 Speaker 3: his childhood was happy. I mean they were poor, but 269 00:12:47,622 --> 00:12:50,022 Speaker 3: he said that you know, they never went without food 270 00:12:50,102 --> 00:12:52,462 Speaker 3: or anything like that. So from a young age there 271 00:12:52,542 --> 00:12:54,822 Speaker 3: was you know, apart from having no father, said the 272 00:12:54,822 --> 00:12:57,342 Speaker 3: family was close, tight knit family. You know, there was 273 00:12:57,382 --> 00:13:00,102 Speaker 3: no from what he told me, there's no abuse or 274 00:13:00,102 --> 00:13:03,462 Speaker 3: anything like that, just poverty. Really, he said it was 275 00:13:03,462 --> 00:13:06,022 Speaker 3: when he got to his teens that he started going 276 00:13:06,022 --> 00:13:08,742 Speaker 3: a little bit wayward, as a lot of people do. 277 00:13:08,782 --> 00:13:10,262 Speaker 3: I suppose when you're a teenager and you want to 278 00:13:10,262 --> 00:13:12,022 Speaker 3: se the boundaries and all that sort of stuff. And 279 00:13:12,102 --> 00:13:15,062 Speaker 3: he said, you know, he started seeing people with things, 280 00:13:15,622 --> 00:13:18,702 Speaker 3: you know, nice clothes and that sort of stuff and 281 00:13:18,822 --> 00:13:22,782 Speaker 3: started wanting for those things, and he essentially started just 282 00:13:22,862 --> 00:13:26,302 Speaker 3: going the wrong way. About obtaining those nice things, and 283 00:13:26,382 --> 00:13:29,302 Speaker 3: you know that came in the form of burglaries and 284 00:13:29,862 --> 00:13:32,742 Speaker 3: bits and pieces. And in fact, he found himself incarcerated 285 00:13:32,782 --> 00:13:34,582 Speaker 3: for the first time in nineteen eighty eight at the 286 00:13:34,582 --> 00:13:35,782 Speaker 3: age of eighteen. 287 00:13:36,182 --> 00:13:40,302 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, because he had about sixteen convictions prior to 288 00:13:40,342 --> 00:13:41,982 Speaker 1: being arrested for the murder. 289 00:13:42,142 --> 00:13:44,942 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was in and out, in and out. So 290 00:13:44,982 --> 00:13:47,262 Speaker 3: he goes in in nineteen eighty eight. I believe he 291 00:13:47,382 --> 00:13:49,982 Speaker 3: did about a year on that one and was out 292 00:13:50,102 --> 00:13:53,302 Speaker 3: in the end of eighty nine. And that one was 293 00:13:53,382 --> 00:13:55,662 Speaker 3: for So when they say, you know, sixteen charges, there's 294 00:13:55,702 --> 00:13:58,302 Speaker 3: probably multiple charges because the first time he goes in 295 00:13:58,342 --> 00:14:02,422 Speaker 3: there was a motor vehicle burglary charge and assault on 296 00:14:02,502 --> 00:14:03,702 Speaker 3: a police officer. 297 00:14:03,622 --> 00:14:05,102 Speaker 1: Which is probably wrapped up to one. 298 00:14:05,222 --> 00:14:07,702 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah conviction. He had multiple charges in that. And 299 00:14:07,742 --> 00:14:10,262 Speaker 3: then when he came out, he says, he gets he 300 00:14:10,302 --> 00:14:12,222 Speaker 3: got a job, and he started actually going to a 301 00:14:12,262 --> 00:14:15,822 Speaker 3: trade school. He had a partner, and then his first 302 00:14:15,902 --> 00:14:18,782 Speaker 3: child came along at that stage, so he was trying 303 00:14:18,822 --> 00:14:21,462 Speaker 3: to work to be better and to not go down 304 00:14:21,502 --> 00:14:24,102 Speaker 3: that route. But he said, eventually the pool of the 305 00:14:24,142 --> 00:14:28,262 Speaker 3: criminality just again easy money as opposed to know what 306 00:14:28,302 --> 00:14:30,182 Speaker 3: he was trying to do to get ahead with his family, 307 00:14:30,462 --> 00:14:33,222 Speaker 3: and he ends up basically back in prison. I think 308 00:14:33,222 --> 00:14:35,542 Speaker 3: it was January of nineteen ninety So he wasn't out 309 00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:38,102 Speaker 3: for very long and he was back in again, and 310 00:14:38,142 --> 00:14:40,982 Speaker 3: that was for a seven year stretch. So again multitude 311 00:14:40,982 --> 00:14:43,422 Speaker 3: of charge is involved in that one as well. And 312 00:14:43,462 --> 00:14:45,262 Speaker 3: then he comes out of prison and then again he's 313 00:14:45,542 --> 00:14:47,622 Speaker 3: not out for very long at all, and he was 314 00:14:47,662 --> 00:14:50,982 Speaker 3: back into prison in nineteen ninety eight, and then they 315 00:14:51,022 --> 00:14:52,142 Speaker 3: he was never released again. 316 00:14:52,662 --> 00:14:55,662 Speaker 1: So the body of Felicia Gail was found stabbed in 317 00:14:55,702 --> 00:14:59,342 Speaker 1: her apartment in the August of nineteen ninety eight. Firstly, 318 00:14:59,382 --> 00:15:00,502 Speaker 1: what do we know about her? 319 00:15:00,942 --> 00:15:04,742 Speaker 3: So newspaper reporter, was a newspaper reporter, but a social 320 00:15:04,782 --> 00:15:09,022 Speaker 3: worker as well. She was married essentially, you know, a 321 00:15:09,022 --> 00:15:12,822 Speaker 3: lovely person, did no wrong, you know, she was just 322 00:15:12,862 --> 00:15:15,382 Speaker 3: an all round lovely person, you know, and that's I think, 323 00:15:15,422 --> 00:15:17,582 Speaker 3: you know. And they lived in her and her husband 324 00:15:17,582 --> 00:15:20,502 Speaker 3: lived in a reasonably affluent part of town, you know. 325 00:15:20,542 --> 00:15:22,502 Speaker 3: And this is why again it caused so much uproar, 326 00:15:22,542 --> 00:15:25,342 Speaker 3: because not only was this a murder, but it was 327 00:15:25,462 --> 00:15:28,022 Speaker 3: quite a brutal murder. I mean, I think she was 328 00:15:28,022 --> 00:15:30,862 Speaker 3: stabbed over forty times, maybe forty two times she was 329 00:15:30,902 --> 00:15:33,382 Speaker 3: she was stabbed, so of course, I mean, you know, 330 00:15:33,662 --> 00:15:36,822 Speaker 3: the community was just in uproar about that situation. How 331 00:15:36,862 --> 00:15:39,462 Speaker 3: this lady can be just at home. You know, she 332 00:15:39,542 --> 00:15:41,862 Speaker 3: was reportedly in the shower. I've got out of the 333 00:15:41,902 --> 00:15:44,542 Speaker 3: shower and that's when she was brutally stabbed. I mean, 334 00:15:44,582 --> 00:15:47,742 Speaker 3: forty two times is obviously horrific. Yeah, it's insanity. 335 00:15:51,142 --> 00:15:54,822 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. 336 00:15:55,182 --> 00:15:58,902 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with journalist Jack Lawrence about the execution of 337 00:15:58,982 --> 00:16:02,502 Speaker 1: Marcellus Williams. Up next, we talk about the evidence that 338 00:16:02,582 --> 00:16:04,662 Speaker 1: was left at the crime scene and how it was 339 00:16:04,742 --> 00:16:11,182 Speaker 1: used to convict Williams of murder. Do we know anything 340 00:16:11,182 --> 00:16:13,542 Speaker 1: about the crime scene, whether there was any evidence. 341 00:16:14,102 --> 00:16:16,542 Speaker 3: Well, this is a thing, and this is why this 342 00:16:16,702 --> 00:16:20,502 Speaker 3: case has been so I suppose it's caused so much 343 00:16:20,502 --> 00:16:24,982 Speaker 3: attention because of the amount of evidence that was at 344 00:16:25,022 --> 00:16:30,902 Speaker 3: that crime scene that didn't match Marcellus Williams. So we'll start. 345 00:16:30,942 --> 00:16:32,902 Speaker 3: There was hair found, for instance, to start with, So 346 00:16:32,902 --> 00:16:36,302 Speaker 3: there was hair found near Felicia at the time. I 347 00:16:36,342 --> 00:16:38,542 Speaker 3: think some may have been on her and nearby her 348 00:16:38,782 --> 00:16:42,222 Speaker 3: was found. I was tested did not match Marcellus Williams, 349 00:16:42,262 --> 00:16:44,822 Speaker 3: nor did it match her. So the question mark became 350 00:16:45,062 --> 00:16:49,822 Speaker 3: whose hair is that? There was like, apparently a plethora 351 00:16:49,862 --> 00:16:54,662 Speaker 3: of fingerprints, bloody fingerprints, But apparently I've heard different stories 352 00:16:54,662 --> 00:16:57,822 Speaker 3: as opposed to what was the issue with these fingerprints, 353 00:16:57,902 --> 00:17:01,022 Speaker 3: But there was some that stated that basically the prints 354 00:17:01,022 --> 00:17:02,982 Speaker 3: weren't of a good enough quality, any of them to 355 00:17:03,382 --> 00:17:05,982 Speaker 3: actually come up with a match for anyone, let alone 356 00:17:05,982 --> 00:17:08,982 Speaker 3: Marcellus Williams. And then I heard somewhere along the line 357 00:17:08,982 --> 00:17:11,142 Speaker 3: that they may have even just disap here. They've been 358 00:17:11,142 --> 00:17:14,382 Speaker 3: thrown out the evidence that was gathered there. Then you've 359 00:17:14,422 --> 00:17:18,622 Speaker 3: got a bloody footprint that it was pointing in the 360 00:17:18,622 --> 00:17:21,062 Speaker 3: direction of leaving the scene of the crime, which was 361 00:17:21,582 --> 00:17:24,622 Speaker 3: again tested against Marcellus for the size. Obviously they could 362 00:17:24,662 --> 00:17:26,742 Speaker 3: get a good idea of the size of the footprint, 363 00:17:26,902 --> 00:17:29,982 Speaker 3: and it was too small to be Marcellus's foot. So 364 00:17:30,022 --> 00:17:32,702 Speaker 3: again the question is, well, who's made that bloody footprint? 365 00:17:32,982 --> 00:17:35,222 Speaker 3: You know? But the biggest one, of course is the knife. 366 00:17:35,662 --> 00:17:39,702 Speaker 3: The knife that killed Felicia was left still in her view. 367 00:17:39,822 --> 00:17:41,982 Speaker 3: She had the knife still in it when they found her, 368 00:17:42,222 --> 00:17:44,782 Speaker 3: and that was obviously the biggest piece of evidence. But 369 00:17:45,062 --> 00:17:48,622 Speaker 3: the weird thing was that was never tested for DNA 370 00:17:49,382 --> 00:17:51,742 Speaker 3: or anything at the time. For some reason, that was 371 00:17:51,782 --> 00:17:54,422 Speaker 3: just never tested and it wasn't until later down the 372 00:17:54,462 --> 00:17:58,822 Speaker 3: track that that knife would actually be tested. And that 373 00:17:58,902 --> 00:18:01,622 Speaker 3: was the biggest conjecture about this whole case, because initially 374 00:18:01,622 --> 00:18:05,862 Speaker 3: it comes back that Marcellus has been excluded from that knife, 375 00:18:06,182 --> 00:18:08,382 Speaker 3: like his DNA is just not on there. But then 376 00:18:09,542 --> 00:18:12,862 Speaker 3: there was DNA on that and the biggest thing that 377 00:18:12,902 --> 00:18:16,182 Speaker 3: came out was it belonged to one of the prosecutors 378 00:18:16,182 --> 00:18:18,782 Speaker 3: in the case. And then he eventually actually had had 379 00:18:18,822 --> 00:18:21,662 Speaker 3: an evidentiary hearing that was had not that long ago. 380 00:18:22,382 --> 00:18:26,302 Speaker 3: He admitted to mishandling the murder weapon, handling it without 381 00:18:26,302 --> 00:18:29,542 Speaker 3: gloves basically, and he wasn't the only one. Multiple people 382 00:18:29,582 --> 00:18:32,902 Speaker 3: had done it. So in fact, they destroyed any chance 383 00:18:32,902 --> 00:18:35,582 Speaker 3: of ever working out whether Marcellus's DNA was on that 384 00:18:36,062 --> 00:18:39,622 Speaker 3: knife or not. And the prosecutor's office, you know, openly 385 00:18:39,622 --> 00:18:41,382 Speaker 3: put their hands up and said, you know what, this 386 00:18:41,582 --> 00:18:44,302 Speaker 3: is completely we've messed up here. This is you know, 387 00:18:44,382 --> 00:18:46,662 Speaker 3: blah blah blah, and they actually spoke, They actually made 388 00:18:46,662 --> 00:18:51,262 Speaker 3: a deal with Marcellus's defense team to commute his sentence 389 00:18:51,262 --> 00:18:53,662 Speaker 3: from death to life in prison. Marcellus wasn't going to 390 00:18:53,742 --> 00:18:56,502 Speaker 3: admit to have committed this crime, but they said, look, 391 00:18:56,582 --> 00:18:59,582 Speaker 3: we will agree to commute this down to a life 392 00:18:59,622 --> 00:19:02,502 Speaker 3: sentence and take away the death penalty. He agreed to 393 00:19:02,542 --> 00:19:05,102 Speaker 3: that because obviously you can't fight your case if you're dead, 394 00:19:05,502 --> 00:19:08,302 Speaker 3: So he agreed to that, hoping that they could continue 395 00:19:08,342 --> 00:19:10,302 Speaker 3: the fight and eventually something will come out that will 396 00:19:10,462 --> 00:19:13,662 Speaker 3: fully exonerating It. Was like the best of a bad situation, really, 397 00:19:13,782 --> 00:19:17,382 Speaker 3: but unfortunately the Attorney General of Missouri got involved and 398 00:19:17,382 --> 00:19:21,062 Speaker 3: fought that, and the High Court came back and reinstated 399 00:19:21,062 --> 00:19:21,742 Speaker 3: the death penalty. 400 00:19:22,222 --> 00:19:25,062 Speaker 1: I want to get to that series of events in 401 00:19:25,142 --> 00:19:28,302 Speaker 1: more detail soon, but firstly, if we go back to 402 00:19:28,302 --> 00:19:30,422 Speaker 1: the start, were there any other suspects that we know 403 00:19:30,502 --> 00:19:31,742 Speaker 1: of apart from Marcella's. 404 00:19:32,062 --> 00:19:34,302 Speaker 3: No, It's one of those situations that they didn't have 405 00:19:34,342 --> 00:19:36,582 Speaker 3: any lead. There was actually a similar burglary that it 406 00:19:36,662 --> 00:19:39,662 Speaker 3: had happened not that long prior to that, but they 407 00:19:39,702 --> 00:19:42,742 Speaker 3: had no one for that either, you know, very similar mo, 408 00:19:43,422 --> 00:19:46,182 Speaker 3: but they had no leads on anyone, and it was 409 00:19:46,262 --> 00:19:51,502 Speaker 3: only until the old classics prison snitch comes along that 410 00:19:51,582 --> 00:19:54,902 Speaker 3: they finally had a suspect. And this is the issue 411 00:19:54,902 --> 00:19:57,102 Speaker 3: that I find in so many cases that I deal with, 412 00:19:57,262 --> 00:20:00,382 Speaker 3: is that police having no leads, especially in their cases 413 00:20:00,382 --> 00:20:01,782 Speaker 3: where you hear this a lot or they were under 414 00:20:01,782 --> 00:20:02,942 Speaker 3: a lot of pressure to get us at this one, 415 00:20:03,022 --> 00:20:05,182 Speaker 3: so they're under a lot of pressure. And when the 416 00:20:05,182 --> 00:20:06,782 Speaker 3: cops are under a lot of pressure, what do they 417 00:20:06,782 --> 00:20:08,542 Speaker 3: want to do? Quickly solve this case so they've got 418 00:20:08,542 --> 00:20:11,542 Speaker 3: no more pressure. So if someone comes along to him 419 00:20:11,542 --> 00:20:14,262 Speaker 3: and says, yeah, this is the guy who did it, okay, 420 00:20:14,262 --> 00:20:16,622 Speaker 3: tell us more. They had so little to go on 421 00:20:16,662 --> 00:20:19,462 Speaker 3: with this casel, so we had no one that the 422 00:20:19,542 --> 00:20:23,062 Speaker 3: partner of Felicia, her husband at the time, offered up 423 00:20:23,102 --> 00:20:26,182 Speaker 3: a reward ten thousand dollars for information that would lead 424 00:20:26,222 --> 00:20:29,982 Speaker 3: to an arrest. And it wasn't until that reward was 425 00:20:29,982 --> 00:20:33,582 Speaker 3: announced that hey, amazingly, all of a sudden, this guy 426 00:20:34,382 --> 00:20:37,702 Speaker 3: has had a full confession from Marcellus Williams as to 427 00:20:37,862 --> 00:20:39,942 Speaker 3: him committing this crime. And apparently it was an in 428 00:20:40,062 --> 00:20:43,342 Speaker 3: prison confession. Marcellus was in prison with this guy, whom 429 00:20:43,382 --> 00:20:45,822 Speaker 3: Marcellus told me was actually a distant relative of his, 430 00:20:45,902 --> 00:20:49,022 Speaker 3: and he didn't realize and they ended up being incarcerated together, 431 00:20:49,302 --> 00:20:53,582 Speaker 3: and literally as this guy's released, he goes straight to 432 00:20:53,622 --> 00:20:56,382 Speaker 3: the place that says, oh, yeah, I know who did this. 433 00:20:56,462 --> 00:20:58,502 Speaker 3: He told me about it. He admitted to it. And 434 00:20:58,542 --> 00:21:02,062 Speaker 3: not only that, one of Marcellos's former partners she also 435 00:21:02,542 --> 00:21:04,862 Speaker 3: basically joined forces with this guy who was in prison 436 00:21:05,182 --> 00:21:08,742 Speaker 3: and said, yeah, Marcellus definitely did this. You know, she said, 437 00:21:08,782 --> 00:21:11,022 Speaker 3: I saw him with this purse. Then we've got this 438 00:21:11,102 --> 00:21:13,862 Speaker 3: laptop issue that we can talk about because there were 439 00:21:13,942 --> 00:21:19,222 Speaker 3: items belonging to Felicia Gow that were found in Marcellus's grandfather's. 440 00:21:18,462 --> 00:21:21,782 Speaker 1: Car, which is a strange link to get to. So 441 00:21:21,862 --> 00:21:24,942 Speaker 1: has Marcellus admitted to anything in this case? Did he 442 00:21:24,982 --> 00:21:26,302 Speaker 1: steal from Felicia? 443 00:21:26,542 --> 00:21:29,422 Speaker 3: No? So, because this is the thing people come back to, 444 00:21:29,582 --> 00:21:31,262 Speaker 3: is like the biggest argument is like, well, if he 445 00:21:31,302 --> 00:21:32,942 Speaker 3: had nothing to do with it, how on earth has 446 00:21:32,942 --> 00:21:35,542 Speaker 3: he got her stuff? And I was the same, I'm like, 447 00:21:35,702 --> 00:21:37,222 Speaker 3: well yeah, I mean as soon as I heard that, 448 00:21:37,302 --> 00:21:40,742 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, okay, this isn't good because you've got stuff. 449 00:21:40,782 --> 00:21:44,382 Speaker 3: In fact, he even sells the laptop that belonged to 450 00:21:44,382 --> 00:21:48,542 Speaker 3: Felicia's husband to a guy for drugs or something. I think, 451 00:21:48,542 --> 00:21:49,582 Speaker 3: I don't know. If it was. I think it was 452 00:21:49,622 --> 00:21:51,902 Speaker 3: drugs that he was sort of swapping it for. So 453 00:21:51,942 --> 00:21:54,302 Speaker 3: I'm like, well, okay, well this doesn't look good. But 454 00:21:54,422 --> 00:21:58,302 Speaker 3: once you dig into that further more question marks come up. 455 00:21:58,542 --> 00:22:02,062 Speaker 3: So you find out that his former partner was working 456 00:22:02,142 --> 00:22:05,862 Speaker 3: as a sex worker and she was sleeping in his 457 00:22:06,342 --> 00:22:09,822 Speaker 3: grandfather's vehicle using it, and she was also using that 458 00:22:09,942 --> 00:22:13,982 Speaker 3: vehicle to conduct her business. And Marcellus admitted, you know 459 00:22:14,062 --> 00:22:17,022 Speaker 3: that he did take this laptop to this guy. And 460 00:22:17,062 --> 00:22:19,062 Speaker 3: they had actually the guy who took the laptop from 461 00:22:19,062 --> 00:22:22,262 Speaker 3: Marcellus on the stand to testify, yes, Marcellus Williams did 462 00:22:22,302 --> 00:22:24,702 Speaker 3: sell me this laptop. He was going to also say 463 00:22:24,742 --> 00:22:27,502 Speaker 3: that what Marcellus brought the laptop and said that he 464 00:22:27,542 --> 00:22:30,462 Speaker 3: got it from his girlfriend. She'd given it to him 465 00:22:30,782 --> 00:22:34,182 Speaker 3: and said, here, take this and go and swap it 466 00:22:34,222 --> 00:22:37,062 Speaker 3: for sell it for drugs or whatever. But the guy 467 00:22:37,062 --> 00:22:39,102 Speaker 3: who got the laptop was not allowed to testify to 468 00:22:39,142 --> 00:22:40,862 Speaker 3: that part of it. He was only allowed to testify 469 00:22:40,902 --> 00:22:42,782 Speaker 3: to the fact that Marcellus had sold him the laptop 470 00:22:42,862 --> 00:22:44,662 Speaker 3: or swapped it with him for drugs. 471 00:22:44,622 --> 00:22:48,262 Speaker 1: Which sounds bizarre because isn't that an important detail that. 472 00:22:48,142 --> 00:22:50,782 Speaker 3: They call is hearsay. They say it's a hearsay. So 473 00:22:50,862 --> 00:22:54,422 Speaker 3: hearsay is you know him saying, well, marcell has told 474 00:22:54,422 --> 00:22:56,822 Speaker 3: me that he got it from his girlfriend. That's heresay. 475 00:22:56,862 --> 00:22:59,262 Speaker 3: He didn't see Marcellus get it from his girlfriend. He's 476 00:22:59,302 --> 00:23:01,742 Speaker 3: got no way of knowing of Marcell's actually did get 477 00:23:01,782 --> 00:23:03,902 Speaker 3: it from his girlfriend. That's just what Marcello's telling him. 478 00:23:04,142 --> 00:23:06,262 Speaker 3: So the judge said, it's heresay, it's not allowed in. 479 00:23:06,582 --> 00:23:08,742 Speaker 3: But for me, I agree, it's a very important factor 480 00:23:09,142 --> 00:23:12,782 Speaker 3: of that case because there is a theory and I 481 00:23:12,822 --> 00:23:14,662 Speaker 3: put that in. It's just a theory, but there is 482 00:23:14,702 --> 00:23:18,182 Speaker 3: a theory that, you know, if it wasn't Marcellus who 483 00:23:18,262 --> 00:23:20,542 Speaker 3: committed his crime, the theory is that it could have, 484 00:23:20,582 --> 00:23:24,502 Speaker 3: in fact been a quote unquote client of his former 485 00:23:24,542 --> 00:23:28,462 Speaker 3: partner who committed the robbery and had exchanged what he 486 00:23:28,582 --> 00:23:32,902 Speaker 3: got from the robbery with her for her services. She's 487 00:23:32,982 --> 00:23:34,942 Speaker 3: then gone to Marcellus and said, hey, look I've got 488 00:23:34,942 --> 00:23:38,462 Speaker 3: this laptop, take that, sell it whatever. That's how he 489 00:23:38,462 --> 00:23:42,982 Speaker 3: has possession of the items. Now people say, oh, that's 490 00:23:43,022 --> 00:23:45,942 Speaker 3: a bit of a stretch. It's like, okay, but it's 491 00:23:45,982 --> 00:23:46,782 Speaker 3: not impossible. 492 00:23:47,382 --> 00:23:49,942 Speaker 1: And if we look at what Marcellus was charged over. 493 00:23:50,302 --> 00:23:53,342 Speaker 1: It was those links, right, So he's actually charged with 494 00:23:53,422 --> 00:23:57,462 Speaker 1: murder based on these items that were found in this car. 495 00:23:57,822 --> 00:24:00,062 Speaker 3: And the testimony of the girlfriend and the or the 496 00:24:00,102 --> 00:24:02,222 Speaker 3: former girlfriend and this guy from prison who stood to 497 00:24:02,222 --> 00:24:05,702 Speaker 3: get ten thousand dollars for their testimony, And there was 498 00:24:05,742 --> 00:24:10,142 Speaker 3: also evidence to show that his former girlfriend and the 499 00:24:10,142 --> 00:24:13,062 Speaker 3: guy who in prison had multiple calls phone calls back 500 00:24:13,102 --> 00:24:15,182 Speaker 3: and forth while he was in prison before he left. 501 00:24:15,302 --> 00:24:17,422 Speaker 3: Why are they talking and what are they talking about? 502 00:24:17,662 --> 00:24:20,702 Speaker 3: Is the question. And not only that, on top of that, 503 00:24:20,782 --> 00:24:24,582 Speaker 3: you have other people from both those people's lives who've 504 00:24:24,582 --> 00:24:26,702 Speaker 3: made statements. So you've got the son of the guy 505 00:24:26,742 --> 00:24:30,102 Speaker 3: who said that Marcella's admitted to him. He's come forward 506 00:24:30,142 --> 00:24:31,902 Speaker 3: and made a statement saying that his dad had mentioned 507 00:24:31,902 --> 00:24:33,342 Speaker 3: that he was going to be coming into some money 508 00:24:33,342 --> 00:24:36,542 Speaker 3: because of a caper that he was running. And then 509 00:24:36,662 --> 00:24:39,102 Speaker 3: the girlfriend or the former girlfriend, some of her friends 510 00:24:39,102 --> 00:24:41,382 Speaker 3: had come forward and said that she'd openly even admitted 511 00:24:41,382 --> 00:24:42,822 Speaker 3: to the fact she was setting him up to get 512 00:24:42,822 --> 00:24:45,742 Speaker 3: the cash. So there's a big thing that all these 513 00:24:45,742 --> 00:24:48,262 Speaker 3: people are like, oh, you know, it's so funny because 514 00:24:48,422 --> 00:24:50,742 Speaker 3: I've seen obviously some people who have staunched the fact 515 00:24:50,782 --> 00:24:53,462 Speaker 3: that Marcella's one hundredercent guilty, you know, deserve what he got. 516 00:24:53,622 --> 00:24:56,182 Speaker 3: And you know, they they come up and say, well, 517 00:24:56,182 --> 00:24:58,382 Speaker 3: how has he got his stuff? And you know, how 518 00:24:58,422 --> 00:25:01,342 Speaker 3: did this guy you know know details about what had happened, 519 00:25:01,382 --> 00:25:04,702 Speaker 3: and said, well, there's always you know, things that I 520 00:25:04,702 --> 00:25:06,262 Speaker 3: can give you to say, well this is how it 521 00:25:06,302 --> 00:25:08,582 Speaker 3: could have happened, and they go, oh whatever, yeah, sure, 522 00:25:08,702 --> 00:25:11,182 Speaker 3: like I mean, you know, oh yeah, that could have happened. 523 00:25:11,182 --> 00:25:13,142 Speaker 3: It's like, but it could have. It really could have. 524 00:25:13,342 --> 00:25:14,822 Speaker 3: So what I'm saying is what I've always said the 525 00:25:14,822 --> 00:25:16,742 Speaker 3: whole way through, is like, I'm not saying that he's 526 00:25:16,782 --> 00:25:19,942 Speaker 3: one hundred percent innocent. What I'm saying is there's far 527 00:25:19,982 --> 00:25:23,502 Speaker 3: too many question marks around this case to make it 528 00:25:23,542 --> 00:25:25,302 Speaker 3: that final where we're going to say we're going to 529 00:25:25,382 --> 00:25:26,262 Speaker 3: kill someone. 530 00:25:26,542 --> 00:25:29,262 Speaker 1: Especially when you know, we were just talking about hearsay. 531 00:25:29,862 --> 00:25:33,582 Speaker 1: But here we are believing the testimony of two people, 532 00:25:33,662 --> 00:25:35,902 Speaker 1: but we're not allowed to believe the testimony of anyone 533 00:25:35,942 --> 00:25:37,582 Speaker 1: else in those people's lives. 534 00:25:37,862 --> 00:25:39,942 Speaker 3: And what's amazing with that? You find as well in 535 00:25:39,982 --> 00:25:42,622 Speaker 3: these cases, especially with these whole snitch cases, where there's 536 00:25:42,622 --> 00:25:45,142 Speaker 3: people from prison who come up and give the cops 537 00:25:45,222 --> 00:25:47,862 Speaker 3: essentially what they need for a conviction. And I've seen 538 00:25:47,902 --> 00:25:50,502 Speaker 3: it happen in the past. Happened in the Everyessalist junior case. 539 00:25:50,822 --> 00:25:53,262 Speaker 3: A snitch in that case was the reason that he 540 00:25:53,302 --> 00:25:56,622 Speaker 3: got arrested. And eventually that snitch recandied. And then what 541 00:25:56,662 --> 00:25:58,462 Speaker 3: they say is once someone recanns, they go, well, we 542 00:25:58,502 --> 00:26:00,542 Speaker 3: can't trust that person. He's a criminal. It's like, well, 543 00:26:00,542 --> 00:26:02,382 Speaker 3: hold on a second, and that's literally what they said. 544 00:26:02,382 --> 00:26:04,342 Speaker 3: Ever reesa Salis junior case, they said, well, we can't 545 00:26:04,342 --> 00:26:06,142 Speaker 3: trust him, he's a criminal. It's like the whold of 546 00:26:06,182 --> 00:26:08,182 Speaker 3: a second. We were trusting him before when. 547 00:26:08,262 --> 00:26:09,502 Speaker 1: You used that evidence. 548 00:26:09,622 --> 00:26:12,582 Speaker 3: Yes, that was your evidence to get him convicted in 549 00:26:12,582 --> 00:26:14,662 Speaker 3: the first place, but now it's not, you know what 550 00:26:14,702 --> 00:26:16,942 Speaker 3: you want to hear, Oh, we can't trust that person. 551 00:26:17,502 --> 00:26:20,702 Speaker 3: So you know, and this snitch thing is just it's 552 00:26:20,742 --> 00:26:23,382 Speaker 3: so rife, and it still is in the US. So 553 00:26:23,822 --> 00:26:28,502 Speaker 3: they stood to gain from Marcellus being found guilty again 554 00:26:28,622 --> 00:26:31,702 Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars, you know. And it was funny because 555 00:26:31,902 --> 00:26:34,262 Speaker 3: that guy even got more help because Marcella's when he 556 00:26:34,382 --> 00:26:37,142 Speaker 3: was finally charged with this, he wanted a speedy trial 557 00:26:37,342 --> 00:26:39,062 Speaker 3: and you know, you have the right in America, two 558 00:26:39,062 --> 00:26:41,182 Speaker 3: way speedy trial. So he said, I want a speedy trial. 559 00:26:41,182 --> 00:26:43,462 Speaker 3: And his lawyer, he said, was actually trying to talk 560 00:26:43,542 --> 00:26:46,582 Speaker 3: him out of pushing for a speedy trial, and he's like, 561 00:26:46,582 --> 00:26:48,342 Speaker 3: I don't understand why he was doing that, and he said, 562 00:26:48,342 --> 00:26:51,222 Speaker 3: I regret. He ended up going with the atturney saying okay, 563 00:26:51,262 --> 00:26:53,222 Speaker 3: all right, well we won't push for that because I 564 00:26:53,222 --> 00:26:54,742 Speaker 3: think the attorney was like, you know, we need time 565 00:26:54,822 --> 00:26:57,702 Speaker 3: to build a better defense. Whereas he later found out 566 00:26:57,782 --> 00:27:01,382 Speaker 3: that the prosecution that had lost their key witness, the 567 00:27:01,382 --> 00:27:04,102 Speaker 3: guy he just disappeared on them like they've given him 568 00:27:04,102 --> 00:27:06,862 Speaker 3: some money and he'd gone off somewhere to blow the 569 00:27:06,902 --> 00:27:09,182 Speaker 3: money and you know whatever he was doing with it. 570 00:27:09,662 --> 00:27:12,702 Speaker 3: So they needed time to get him back because otherwise 571 00:27:12,742 --> 00:27:14,742 Speaker 3: he wouldn't even back in time to give the evidence. 572 00:27:15,422 --> 00:27:18,022 Speaker 1: How did the trial go, because that was in two 573 00:27:18,062 --> 00:27:18,742 Speaker 1: thousand and one. 574 00:27:19,022 --> 00:27:21,542 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean the biggest thing about the trial 575 00:27:21,702 --> 00:27:24,942 Speaker 3: was I believe it was very quick. But the other 576 00:27:25,222 --> 00:27:29,462 Speaker 3: issue was surrounding the jury. So you know, jury of 577 00:27:29,502 --> 00:27:32,862 Speaker 3: your peers, it was not There was eleven white people 578 00:27:32,862 --> 00:27:35,502 Speaker 3: and one black person. And this was another issue that 579 00:27:35,582 --> 00:27:38,542 Speaker 3: was brought forward in fact by the prosecutor's office, because 580 00:27:38,822 --> 00:27:41,022 Speaker 3: it was in fact the prosecutor's office that was pushing 581 00:27:41,142 --> 00:27:46,422 Speaker 3: to have Marcellus's sentence downgraded, not the old prosecution, this 582 00:27:46,502 --> 00:27:48,942 Speaker 3: new So there's a Wesley Bell who's the new prosecutor 583 00:27:49,582 --> 00:27:52,822 Speaker 3: of Saint Louis, and he's the one that said there's 584 00:27:52,862 --> 00:27:55,222 Speaker 3: issues with this case. There's a lot of issues with 585 00:27:55,262 --> 00:27:57,662 Speaker 3: this case. And one of those issues they had was 586 00:27:57,702 --> 00:28:01,062 Speaker 3: with this jury selection and how four African Americans were 587 00:28:01,102 --> 00:28:06,702 Speaker 3: removed from that jury, and essentially they believed wrongly removed 588 00:28:06,742 --> 00:28:11,462 Speaker 3: from the jury, and they believed it was a race removal. 589 00:28:12,462 --> 00:28:14,222 Speaker 3: I mean, there's not much you can much else you 590 00:28:14,262 --> 00:28:16,062 Speaker 3: can say that it is if you're just taking four 591 00:28:16,102 --> 00:28:19,262 Speaker 3: people of the jury and they're all African Americans. 592 00:28:19,062 --> 00:28:21,742 Speaker 1: And it's a case involving a person that is. 593 00:28:21,902 --> 00:28:24,942 Speaker 3: Black African American exactly, and it's just like, you know, 594 00:28:25,062 --> 00:28:27,902 Speaker 3: eleven to one, eleven you know, white people and one 595 00:28:27,902 --> 00:28:31,022 Speaker 3: black person. When it comes time for deliberation, I mean, 596 00:28:31,062 --> 00:28:33,382 Speaker 3: it's not going to take much for all those people 597 00:28:33,382 --> 00:28:36,102 Speaker 3: to gang up on one person so he's guilty and 598 00:28:36,102 --> 00:28:39,302 Speaker 3: then they cave unless they're the most solid human being 599 00:28:39,302 --> 00:28:43,462 Speaker 3: on earth. So trial wise, that was essentially one of 600 00:28:43,502 --> 00:28:46,462 Speaker 3: the the biggest issues from trial was this this jury 601 00:28:46,502 --> 00:28:48,782 Speaker 3: selection and how that was handled, and one of those 602 00:28:48,782 --> 00:28:51,382 Speaker 3: things that was brought up, but that was later dismissed. 603 00:28:51,422 --> 00:28:55,062 Speaker 3: In an evidentiary hearing. You know, I think the procecut 604 00:28:55,102 --> 00:28:56,902 Speaker 3: came forward and said, I it wasn't a race thing, 605 00:28:56,942 --> 00:28:59,142 Speaker 3: and this is the reason I did it, And the 606 00:28:59,222 --> 00:29:02,062 Speaker 3: judge was fine with that and said, okay, yeah, that's reasonable. 607 00:29:02,662 --> 00:29:06,462 Speaker 1: So, as we know, Marcellus was given the death penalty 608 00:29:06,622 --> 00:29:10,742 Speaker 1: as a result of that trial. Of his conviction. He 609 00:29:10,782 --> 00:29:13,822 Speaker 1: was first scheduled for execution in twenty fifteen and then 610 00:29:13,862 --> 00:29:17,902 Speaker 1: again in twenty seventeen. Why didn't they go ahead? What happened? 611 00:29:18,342 --> 00:29:20,622 Speaker 3: He was lucky enough to get a stay of executed 612 00:29:20,902 --> 00:29:23,462 Speaker 3: one of the times. I think the second time, he 613 00:29:23,622 --> 00:29:25,982 Speaker 3: was literally I think an hour away from the chair, 614 00:29:26,262 --> 00:29:29,062 Speaker 3: can you imagine, and the governor, I believe at the 615 00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:31,582 Speaker 3: time stepped in. The governor of the state has the 616 00:29:31,622 --> 00:29:35,902 Speaker 3: power to step in and say no. The latest governor 617 00:29:36,182 --> 00:29:39,022 Speaker 3: did not step in, obviously, but this previous governor did 618 00:29:39,062 --> 00:29:40,302 Speaker 3: looked at it and said, you know, I think we 619 00:29:40,342 --> 00:29:43,582 Speaker 3: need to look at this more. So it's just about 620 00:29:43,622 --> 00:29:46,142 Speaker 3: who's in power. At the time. Really, you know, that's 621 00:29:46,182 --> 00:29:50,422 Speaker 3: all it comes down to. And what amazes me the 622 00:29:50,422 --> 00:29:53,662 Speaker 3: most is that the only reason really that this ever 623 00:29:54,182 --> 00:29:56,262 Speaker 3: made it back into some sort of evidentary hearing was 624 00:29:56,302 --> 00:29:57,942 Speaker 3: because of the office that put him there in the 625 00:29:57,982 --> 00:30:02,062 Speaker 3: first place. You know, you've got the prosecutor's office going, guys, 626 00:30:02,102 --> 00:30:06,102 Speaker 3: this isn't doesn't look right. And in recent times they've 627 00:30:06,142 --> 00:30:10,102 Speaker 3: in fact exonerated like three people, one of which I've 628 00:30:10,102 --> 00:30:12,302 Speaker 3: spoken to while he was still in prison. Christopher had 629 00:30:12,342 --> 00:30:14,862 Speaker 3: done and it's all off the back of this prosecutor 630 00:30:15,062 --> 00:30:17,662 Speaker 3: who's brilliant, Wesley Bell. You know, he's doing what a 631 00:30:17,702 --> 00:30:20,862 Speaker 3: lot of prosecutors don't do and actually looking at these 632 00:30:20,902 --> 00:30:23,142 Speaker 3: cases properly and saying, no, there is an issue here, 633 00:30:23,142 --> 00:30:25,942 Speaker 3: and he's going in fighting for these people. And the 634 00:30:25,942 --> 00:30:27,822 Speaker 3: thing is he's coming forward and saying, you know, this 635 00:30:27,942 --> 00:30:30,302 Speaker 3: is wrong. I think this needs to be overturned. And 636 00:30:30,342 --> 00:30:32,302 Speaker 3: half the time he's the only option that they've got 637 00:30:32,902 --> 00:30:35,582 Speaker 3: because if they've exhausted all their appeals, they've got nothing left, 638 00:30:35,582 --> 00:30:38,622 Speaker 3: and the prosecutor has the power to say no, this 639 00:30:38,662 --> 00:30:40,342 Speaker 3: needs to go back in front of a judge to 640 00:30:40,342 --> 00:30:42,622 Speaker 3: be looked at. And then he did it again. He 641 00:30:42,622 --> 00:30:44,222 Speaker 3: did it. This time he said this needs to go 642 00:30:44,622 --> 00:30:46,302 Speaker 3: back to court to be looked at. I mean he 643 00:30:46,342 --> 00:30:50,022 Speaker 3: initially recommended that the Marcellus speaks on or it completely. 644 00:30:50,542 --> 00:30:52,302 Speaker 3: And then when the DNA came back, and then they 645 00:30:52,302 --> 00:30:57,062 Speaker 3: couldn't actually fully exclude Marcellus because it just you know, 646 00:30:57,142 --> 00:30:58,822 Speaker 3: they've mishandled it and there was just no way of 647 00:30:58,862 --> 00:31:00,742 Speaker 3: even telling if his DNA was on there at all. 648 00:31:01,382 --> 00:31:03,542 Speaker 3: That's when he said, well, look, this is what we 649 00:31:03,622 --> 00:31:08,902 Speaker 3: agree to. Even Felicia's family agreed to that. They signed 650 00:31:08,942 --> 00:31:11,262 Speaker 3: off on that. They said, yeah, they not want the 651 00:31:11,262 --> 00:31:15,262 Speaker 3: death penalty. They even said to because it was it's 652 00:31:15,302 --> 00:31:19,822 Speaker 3: only the Attorney General wanted this death penalty to go ahead. 653 00:31:19,942 --> 00:31:22,342 Speaker 3: He fights tooth and nail for anyone. That's I mean 654 00:31:22,382 --> 00:31:25,262 Speaker 3: Christopher Dunn who got exonerated. You know here they judge 655 00:31:25,302 --> 00:31:28,742 Speaker 3: literally brought the hammer down and said release that man immediately. 656 00:31:29,342 --> 00:31:32,302 Speaker 3: And then then the Attorney General rings the prison and says, 657 00:31:32,342 --> 00:31:33,262 Speaker 3: do not let him out. 658 00:31:33,822 --> 00:31:37,022 Speaker 1: Why why is he so steadfast on putting people to death? 659 00:31:37,902 --> 00:31:41,622 Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, you know, I've looked at this. He's 660 00:31:41,662 --> 00:31:44,062 Speaker 3: done it time and time and time and time and 661 00:31:44,102 --> 00:31:47,382 Speaker 3: time again. Every single person who the prosecutor's office have 662 00:31:47,382 --> 00:31:48,662 Speaker 3: come forward and said that, you know, this is a 663 00:31:48,662 --> 00:31:51,342 Speaker 3: wrongful conviction. He is there to fight it. He's in 664 00:31:51,382 --> 00:31:55,222 Speaker 3: fact in court. His team is fighting the prosecutor's office. 665 00:31:55,262 --> 00:31:57,942 Speaker 1: Which is wild because, like we should point out again, 666 00:31:58,022 --> 00:32:01,542 Speaker 1: the prosecution are the people that put you in prison. 667 00:32:01,942 --> 00:32:05,022 Speaker 1: And it's the prosecution coming out and saying, uh, oh, 668 00:32:05,102 --> 00:32:08,262 Speaker 1: we made a mistake like that's wild. 669 00:32:08,542 --> 00:32:10,982 Speaker 3: Isn't it. It's crazy. That's what blows. And I say 670 00:32:11,022 --> 00:32:12,622 Speaker 3: this all the time, like I do not understand it 671 00:32:12,622 --> 00:32:15,422 Speaker 3: when when your office, who is in charge of putting 672 00:32:15,422 --> 00:32:18,622 Speaker 3: people behind bars, is coming out and saying this is wrong, 673 00:32:20,222 --> 00:32:22,422 Speaker 3: you're still fighting it and you're going no, and they're 674 00:32:22,502 --> 00:32:26,262 Speaker 3: in court. Literally, you've got the Attorney General's office in 675 00:32:26,342 --> 00:32:29,342 Speaker 3: court saying that person is guilty. You've got the prosecutor 676 00:32:29,382 --> 00:32:31,062 Speaker 3: standing there going that man is innocent. 677 00:32:31,542 --> 00:32:32,622 Speaker 1: On the opposite side. 678 00:32:33,022 --> 00:32:36,502 Speaker 3: Yes, it's not even the defenses team. You know they're 679 00:32:36,542 --> 00:32:39,142 Speaker 3: in there as well fighting. But it just blows my mind. 680 00:32:39,182 --> 00:32:41,542 Speaker 3: You know, if anyone wants to see it, Like Christopher 681 00:32:41,582 --> 00:32:43,622 Speaker 3: Unne is a perfect case to look at. There's another 682 00:32:43,662 --> 00:32:46,902 Speaker 3: case was Missouri and you just look at the prosecutors 683 00:32:46,942 --> 00:32:50,182 Speaker 3: up there fighting back and forth with the attorney generals. 684 00:32:50,262 --> 00:32:52,782 Speaker 3: They're supposed to be on the same side. They are 685 00:32:52,822 --> 00:32:54,582 Speaker 3: on the same side. They put bad people in prison. 686 00:32:54,942 --> 00:32:58,382 Speaker 1: So in Marcellus's case, we've got the prosecution saying he 687 00:32:58,422 --> 00:33:01,422 Speaker 1: shouldn't be put to death. We've got the victim's family 688 00:33:01,662 --> 00:33:03,822 Speaker 1: saying that as well. And I believe the jewelry. 689 00:33:04,662 --> 00:33:07,942 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, everybody except the Attorney general. 690 00:33:08,462 --> 00:33:11,222 Speaker 1: For many years too, no one wanted the penalty because 691 00:33:11,262 --> 00:33:13,062 Speaker 1: it looks like, as far as I can see, this 692 00:33:13,182 --> 00:33:15,822 Speaker 1: kind of wheels in motion with the Board of Inquiry, 693 00:33:15,822 --> 00:33:19,222 Speaker 1: and everything kind of happened after the second stay of execution, 694 00:33:19,342 --> 00:33:21,462 Speaker 1: so after twenty seventeen, So this has been a fight. 695 00:33:21,502 --> 00:33:23,022 Speaker 1: They've been fighting for many years. 696 00:33:23,382 --> 00:33:23,582 Speaker 2: Yeah. 697 00:33:23,582 --> 00:33:25,462 Speaker 3: But the other thing is that one of the governors 698 00:33:25,582 --> 00:33:27,622 Speaker 3: put together's board of inquiry, but no results were ever 699 00:33:27,742 --> 00:33:28,262 Speaker 3: released for it. 700 00:33:28,462 --> 00:33:29,062 Speaker 1: Why was that? 701 00:33:29,222 --> 00:33:33,102 Speaker 3: No one knows, No one knows, no results. They put 702 00:33:33,102 --> 00:33:34,982 Speaker 3: together this whole team that's supposed to look into this case, 703 00:33:34,982 --> 00:33:37,622 Speaker 3: and all of a sudden they just went, nah, I 704 00:33:37,822 --> 00:33:40,462 Speaker 3: just closed the case, and just like, no results were 705 00:33:40,462 --> 00:33:42,342 Speaker 3: ever released. Nothing, just nothing. 706 00:33:42,662 --> 00:33:46,862 Speaker 1: But they did have an evidentiary hearing quite recently and 707 00:33:47,582 --> 00:33:50,222 Speaker 1: a lot of that damning kind of evidence that you 708 00:33:50,342 --> 00:33:55,182 Speaker 1: mentioned about the knife and the mishandling and the jury, 709 00:33:55,302 --> 00:34:00,062 Speaker 1: about the black African American jurors being discarded from the jury, 710 00:34:00,102 --> 00:34:02,222 Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff was revisited, right. 711 00:34:02,462 --> 00:34:04,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but again, the judge didn't see an 712 00:34:04,462 --> 00:34:07,302 Speaker 3: issue with the jury situation. You know, someone got up 713 00:34:07,302 --> 00:34:09,662 Speaker 3: and explained reasoning behind I can't remember that. There was 714 00:34:09,902 --> 00:34:13,102 Speaker 3: some bizarre reason behind post offices or something. It was 715 00:34:13,182 --> 00:34:15,422 Speaker 3: very odd. I didn't really understand it. But essentially the 716 00:34:15,502 --> 00:34:17,342 Speaker 3: judge was fine with that, and that was struck off. 717 00:34:17,382 --> 00:34:18,222 Speaker 1: What about the knife? 718 00:34:18,302 --> 00:34:20,502 Speaker 3: The knife again, But that's the thing. It's like, hold on, 719 00:34:20,862 --> 00:34:25,982 Speaker 3: you guys have messed up. Okay, So whether his DNA 720 00:34:26,062 --> 00:34:28,062 Speaker 3: is on that knife or not, we won't. We will 721 00:34:28,102 --> 00:34:32,422 Speaker 3: never know because you messed up. That's on you, okay. 722 00:34:32,782 --> 00:34:35,422 Speaker 3: So and the other thing is like, no one's saying 723 00:34:35,942 --> 00:34:38,222 Speaker 3: let this man leave and skip off into the sunset. 724 00:34:38,542 --> 00:34:41,182 Speaker 3: We're just saying, hey, let's just not kill him, just 725 00:34:41,262 --> 00:34:46,742 Speaker 3: in case, because if five, ten, fifteen, twenty years down 726 00:34:46,782 --> 00:34:48,742 Speaker 3: the track, it comes some more evidence comes out to 727 00:34:48,742 --> 00:34:53,102 Speaker 3: show oh, actually no, he's innocent. If he's dead, well, 728 00:34:54,222 --> 00:34:56,822 Speaker 3: I guarantee if some official will come out and go, yeah, 729 00:34:57,502 --> 00:34:59,542 Speaker 3: we really regret that, and we do apologize, and that 730 00:34:59,582 --> 00:35:01,582 Speaker 3: would be it and we'll move on with our lives, 731 00:35:01,782 --> 00:35:05,022 Speaker 3: you know. But if he was still alive, we can write. 732 00:35:05,342 --> 00:35:07,262 Speaker 3: You know, he's been in president obviously for that many years, 733 00:35:07,262 --> 00:35:09,422 Speaker 3: so that's terrible, but at least he can finally get out. 734 00:35:09,462 --> 00:35:12,422 Speaker 3: But obviously we're in this situation now where that's not possible. 735 00:35:12,942 --> 00:35:16,742 Speaker 3: And this is my biggest frustration. I don't understand. The 736 00:35:16,902 --> 00:35:19,702 Speaker 3: law in America is very confusing. 737 00:35:19,662 --> 00:35:22,182 Speaker 1: And in this instance, we're talking about an attorney general 738 00:35:22,502 --> 00:35:26,302 Speaker 1: that basically was like, no death penalty stands. But what 739 00:35:26,342 --> 00:35:28,822 Speaker 1: about the Supreme Court? What about the people higher up? 740 00:35:29,102 --> 00:35:30,182 Speaker 1: Couldn't they intervene? 741 00:35:30,462 --> 00:35:33,062 Speaker 3: Well they can, but they didn't. It's it's like the 742 00:35:33,062 --> 00:35:35,982 Speaker 3: governor again, he could have intervened, he could have stopped 743 00:35:35,982 --> 00:35:38,342 Speaker 3: the whole thing, but he chose not to. There was 744 00:35:38,982 --> 00:35:42,742 Speaker 3: over a million signatures for people not wanting this to happen. 745 00:35:43,462 --> 00:35:46,542 Speaker 3: I mean, Marcellus Williams had more support than I've seen 746 00:35:47,102 --> 00:35:48,662 Speaker 3: since I've been doing this. I mean, I've been doing 747 00:35:48,702 --> 00:35:50,862 Speaker 3: this that long, but I mean, he had an amazing, 748 00:35:50,902 --> 00:35:53,902 Speaker 3: insane amount of support from around the world and millions 749 00:35:53,902 --> 00:35:57,262 Speaker 3: of signatures. There was even news footage of people lined 750 00:35:57,342 --> 00:36:00,822 Speaker 3: up outside the office of you know, the governor with signatures, 751 00:36:00,862 --> 00:36:03,222 Speaker 3: like piles and piles of signatures, bringing them in, bringing 752 00:36:03,262 --> 00:36:05,702 Speaker 3: them in, bringing them in. But you know, the biggest 753 00:36:05,742 --> 00:36:09,342 Speaker 3: issue I think with this situation is that these people 754 00:36:09,382 --> 00:36:12,262 Speaker 3: in power, like you return General Andrew Bailey, who loves 755 00:36:12,262 --> 00:36:15,702 Speaker 3: a death penalty and putting people in prison, like the judges, 756 00:36:16,422 --> 00:36:20,382 Speaker 3: like you know, your governor's prosecutors, we'll not prosecuting in 757 00:36:20,382 --> 00:36:24,062 Speaker 3: this case. He's brilliant. But most prosecutors, they are elected positions, 758 00:36:24,622 --> 00:36:27,342 Speaker 3: so they're elected by the people, which is bizarre. It 759 00:36:27,462 --> 00:36:31,102 Speaker 3: is bizarre because they're politicians. They're not. And at the 760 00:36:31,222 --> 00:36:32,662 Speaker 3: end of the day, as I always say, you know, 761 00:36:32,982 --> 00:36:36,222 Speaker 3: their biggest catch cry is tough on crime, because we 762 00:36:36,302 --> 00:36:38,342 Speaker 3: all want our streets to be safe. You know, we 763 00:36:38,382 --> 00:36:39,742 Speaker 3: all want to be able to walk down the street 764 00:36:39,742 --> 00:36:41,382 Speaker 3: at night and not have to worry about, you know, 765 00:36:41,502 --> 00:36:46,182 Speaker 3: being murdered. So when someone comes out and says, you know, oh, 766 00:36:46,222 --> 00:36:48,182 Speaker 3: we've put away x amount of bad people, look how 767 00:36:48,262 --> 00:36:51,102 Speaker 3: good we are, the public go, oh yeah, fantastic. And 768 00:36:51,222 --> 00:36:55,582 Speaker 3: there's been research done around election time and the rates 769 00:36:55,582 --> 00:36:59,542 Speaker 3: of incarceration go up, you know, incarceration rates and lengths 770 00:36:59,542 --> 00:37:03,102 Speaker 3: of sentences go up. Judges are far harsher on their 771 00:37:03,102 --> 00:37:07,382 Speaker 3: sentencing because again they're elected officials and come election time, 772 00:37:07,462 --> 00:37:09,182 Speaker 3: they want to yell, look at me, look at my numbers. 773 00:37:09,182 --> 00:37:11,062 Speaker 3: Look how many bad people I'm putting way in prison. 774 00:37:11,502 --> 00:37:15,942 Speaker 3: I think it went really wrong for Marcellus when it 775 00:37:15,982 --> 00:37:18,622 Speaker 3: came to wanting, you know, someone like the governor to 776 00:37:18,662 --> 00:37:23,102 Speaker 3: get involved. Was I think there was too much support 777 00:37:23,102 --> 00:37:25,022 Speaker 3: for him, and that sounds weird, But what I mean 778 00:37:25,062 --> 00:37:26,982 Speaker 3: by that is that it got to a point where 779 00:37:27,022 --> 00:37:29,542 Speaker 3: I think the governor, one it didn't want to be, 780 00:37:29,742 --> 00:37:32,142 Speaker 3: did want to show that he might bend to public 781 00:37:32,182 --> 00:37:35,422 Speaker 3: pressure and that he was staunch and that he's like, no, 782 00:37:35,582 --> 00:37:37,982 Speaker 3: I'm gonna you know this. I believe this man is 783 00:37:38,022 --> 00:37:41,062 Speaker 3: guilty and we will continue on. But I go back 784 00:37:41,102 --> 00:37:44,422 Speaker 3: to the fact the family did not want this. So 785 00:37:44,662 --> 00:37:45,822 Speaker 3: this is supposed to be. 786 00:37:46,222 --> 00:37:48,622 Speaker 1: For the victims, justice for the victims. 787 00:37:48,262 --> 00:37:50,822 Speaker 3: Justice for victims. But if the victims don't want this, 788 00:37:51,342 --> 00:37:53,782 Speaker 3: then what are we doing it for. They actually, I 789 00:37:53,782 --> 00:37:55,542 Speaker 3: think they wrote a letter to police saying, please do 790 00:37:55,582 --> 00:37:57,262 Speaker 3: not kill this man in our name. We don't want 791 00:37:57,302 --> 00:37:59,982 Speaker 3: that but they did it anyway, and in the statement, 792 00:37:59,982 --> 00:38:01,742 Speaker 3: the governor said, I hope this, you know, can can 793 00:38:01,862 --> 00:38:03,782 Speaker 3: put the line under the sand and now the victims 794 00:38:03,782 --> 00:38:04,582 Speaker 3: family can move on. 795 00:38:04,782 --> 00:38:07,502 Speaker 1: So I don't usually get this riled up on an 796 00:38:07,502 --> 00:38:10,022 Speaker 1: episode of trick Time Conversations. 797 00:38:09,622 --> 00:38:12,582 Speaker 3: But mate, this is my life. It's so frustrating. 798 00:38:12,902 --> 00:38:15,582 Speaker 1: Like you say, we're not saying free the guy. But 799 00:38:15,622 --> 00:38:18,422 Speaker 1: it's so hard to look at this case when you're like, 800 00:38:18,582 --> 00:38:21,062 Speaker 1: there's supposed to be no reasonable doubt, and it is 801 00:38:21,222 --> 00:38:23,982 Speaker 1: very obvious to me and to you in this case 802 00:38:24,142 --> 00:38:25,422 Speaker 1: there is reasonable doubt. 803 00:38:25,582 --> 00:38:27,862 Speaker 3: There just is, absolutely there is. And that's the thing 804 00:38:27,902 --> 00:38:30,022 Speaker 3: I like, you know, I found myself stupidly and I 805 00:38:30,022 --> 00:38:33,382 Speaker 3: shouldn't but arguing with people online because I'm just like 806 00:38:33,462 --> 00:38:35,902 Speaker 3: going because everyone's like, ah, you know, it's like he 807 00:38:36,102 --> 00:38:37,982 Speaker 3: made his beddy lie. You know, it's like, but hold 808 00:38:37,982 --> 00:38:40,822 Speaker 3: on a second. Again, we're not saying let him skip 809 00:38:40,822 --> 00:38:43,822 Speaker 3: off into the sunset and have a wonderful life. We're saying, hey, 810 00:38:43,942 --> 00:38:46,502 Speaker 3: let's just not kill him. This is why I don't 811 00:38:46,582 --> 00:38:50,622 Speaker 3: understand why. You know, as we said, there is reasonable doubt, 812 00:38:50,662 --> 00:38:53,102 Speaker 3: whether you believe you know, whether you say, oh that 813 00:38:53,142 --> 00:38:56,462 Speaker 3: would never happen. But it could have, and that is 814 00:38:56,502 --> 00:38:59,542 Speaker 3: what we call reasonable doubt. It could have happened. You know, 815 00:38:59,622 --> 00:39:02,942 Speaker 3: it's not so far fetched that that laptop could have 816 00:39:02,982 --> 00:39:05,942 Speaker 3: been given to Marcellus's former partner as a form of 817 00:39:05,982 --> 00:39:07,902 Speaker 3: payment for the work she was doing, because we know 818 00:39:08,182 --> 00:39:11,062 Speaker 3: for a fact she was living in car. We know 819 00:39:11,182 --> 00:39:13,822 Speaker 3: for a fact she was working out of his car. 820 00:39:14,622 --> 00:39:17,502 Speaker 3: We know for a fact because the guy who took 821 00:39:17,542 --> 00:39:20,702 Speaker 3: the laptop from Marcellus said, you know, and you could say, well, 822 00:39:20,702 --> 00:39:22,702 Speaker 3: he could be wrong, or you know, Marcellus could have 823 00:39:22,702 --> 00:39:24,942 Speaker 3: been lying yes, but he may not have been as well. 824 00:39:25,902 --> 00:39:28,742 Speaker 3: She gave him that laptop and said, exchange it for drugs. 825 00:39:29,022 --> 00:39:31,142 Speaker 3: I don't know. It just blows my mind that they're 826 00:39:31,182 --> 00:39:33,622 Speaker 3: so willing to just draw a line under the sand 827 00:39:33,662 --> 00:39:37,982 Speaker 3: and make it that final when there is still reasonable doubt. 828 00:39:48,102 --> 00:39:51,262 Speaker 1: Something else that isn't in Marcellus's corner. I've read kind 829 00:39:51,302 --> 00:39:53,382 Speaker 1: of two sides of the coin when it comes to 830 00:39:53,422 --> 00:39:56,262 Speaker 1: the kind of prisoner he was over his many years 831 00:39:56,302 --> 00:39:59,142 Speaker 1: in prison. On the one hand, you hear all of 832 00:39:59,222 --> 00:40:02,502 Speaker 1: this information about him, you know, leading prayer and converting 833 00:40:02,502 --> 00:40:04,822 Speaker 1: to Islam and being this softly spoken man. But on 834 00:40:04,862 --> 00:40:07,142 Speaker 1: the other hand, he's also been disciplined over a hundred 835 00:40:07,222 --> 00:40:10,982 Speaker 1: times while in prison, verbal and physical ultra ration with 836 00:40:11,102 --> 00:40:15,902 Speaker 1: inmates and guards, and so I can see how the 837 00:40:15,942 --> 00:40:19,862 Speaker 1: public would get an idea in their head. But once again, 838 00:40:20,062 --> 00:40:21,702 Speaker 1: that doesn't make him a murderer. 839 00:40:21,822 --> 00:40:26,102 Speaker 3: No, necessarily, absolutely not. So there's a lot of people 840 00:40:26,142 --> 00:40:30,582 Speaker 3: I speak to who you know, prison is a dangerous 841 00:40:30,582 --> 00:40:33,702 Speaker 3: place to be, you know. Again, going back to Everiso 842 00:40:33,782 --> 00:40:36,062 Speaker 3: Salis Junior, I mean he joined a prison gang. He 843 00:40:36,142 --> 00:40:38,702 Speaker 3: joined a Hispanic prison gang when he went to prison. 844 00:40:38,702 --> 00:40:41,702 Speaker 3: He definitely didn't kill anyone. He's been exonerated, but he 845 00:40:41,742 --> 00:40:44,222 Speaker 3: did what he had to do to survive in those places. 846 00:40:44,302 --> 00:40:46,742 Speaker 3: You know, they are not nice places to live. You know, 847 00:40:47,342 --> 00:40:48,622 Speaker 3: as I said that at the very start of this, 848 00:40:48,702 --> 00:40:50,662 Speaker 3: some of the people I speak to can very rarely 849 00:40:50,662 --> 00:40:54,182 Speaker 3: get a phone because it's controlled by gangs. And if 850 00:40:54,222 --> 00:40:59,022 Speaker 3: you don't fight, you become a victim because they are 851 00:40:59,542 --> 00:41:03,622 Speaker 3: just ruthless places to be. So the fact that Marcellus 852 00:41:03,662 --> 00:41:05,982 Speaker 3: had this, I mean against officers, that's not of course, 853 00:41:06,022 --> 00:41:08,662 Speaker 3: that's not. But then again, the officers in this places 854 00:41:08,702 --> 00:41:11,462 Speaker 3: sometimes aren't very nice human beings z either, you know, 855 00:41:11,862 --> 00:41:14,702 Speaker 3: So you know, when you hear this person had infractions 856 00:41:14,702 --> 00:41:16,582 Speaker 3: in prison for fighting and that sort of stuff. To me, 857 00:41:16,662 --> 00:41:19,622 Speaker 3: it's like, you do what you've got to do in 858 00:41:19,662 --> 00:41:21,982 Speaker 3: those places, you know. I've spoken so many people who 859 00:41:21,982 --> 00:41:24,262 Speaker 3: were just normal people when they went into prison, and 860 00:41:24,302 --> 00:41:26,742 Speaker 3: then they went into prison, and they completely changed because 861 00:41:26,822 --> 00:41:31,102 Speaker 3: the environment that they're placed into, and you can very 862 00:41:31,182 --> 00:41:36,502 Speaker 3: quickly become a target for extortion, you know, sexual abuse, 863 00:41:36,782 --> 00:41:39,262 Speaker 3: all those sorts of things. You know. I speaking to 864 00:41:39,262 --> 00:41:40,622 Speaker 3: a guy at the moment who has been in prison 865 00:41:40,622 --> 00:41:43,142 Speaker 3: since nineteen eighty five, and we've spoken about, you know that, 866 00:41:43,502 --> 00:41:45,942 Speaker 3: how do you stay out of trouble? He said, We've 867 00:41:46,222 --> 00:41:48,262 Speaker 3: got to stand up for yourself. You've got to show 868 00:41:48,302 --> 00:41:51,382 Speaker 3: that you will not be pushed around otherwise it ain't 869 00:41:51,422 --> 00:41:52,262 Speaker 3: a nice time for you. 870 00:41:52,942 --> 00:41:55,902 Speaker 1: How does the process of execution go in that state. 871 00:41:55,902 --> 00:41:57,542 Speaker 1: We've talked about the fact that he had a freedom 872 00:41:57,582 --> 00:42:00,182 Speaker 1: of a phone. What else was he given in the 873 00:42:00,742 --> 00:42:03,342 Speaker 1: months and days and what do those final days and 874 00:42:03,382 --> 00:42:04,142 Speaker 1: hours look like. 875 00:42:05,022 --> 00:42:07,182 Speaker 3: I've actually recently had a man explain this to me. 876 00:42:07,742 --> 00:42:11,142 Speaker 3: It was quite sobering. Again, he's been in prison since 877 00:42:11,222 --> 00:42:13,542 Speaker 3: ninety eighty five. He was originally on death row. In fact, 878 00:42:13,542 --> 00:42:15,702 Speaker 3: he was on the death row with Ted Bundy. Oh wow, 879 00:42:16,062 --> 00:42:18,582 Speaker 3: and saw Ted Bundy being taken to the chair. It 880 00:42:18,662 --> 00:42:20,662 Speaker 3: was an electric chair back in those days, but now 881 00:42:20,662 --> 00:42:23,342 Speaker 3: it's slightly more humane. But once you've given you a date, 882 00:42:23,382 --> 00:42:25,862 Speaker 3: you are moved from In Missouri, actually if you're on 883 00:42:25,942 --> 00:42:28,902 Speaker 3: death row, you're not on what they call the row. 884 00:42:28,982 --> 00:42:31,862 Speaker 3: You're actually in general population, which is unusual generally for 885 00:42:31,982 --> 00:42:34,382 Speaker 3: people who are put on death row. They are placed 886 00:42:34,582 --> 00:42:37,422 Speaker 3: on what they called the row, and they have less 887 00:42:37,422 --> 00:42:42,022 Speaker 3: time outside of their cells, and any movement they make 888 00:42:42,222 --> 00:42:46,982 Speaker 3: is completely shackled, you know, two guards, arms, feet, everything 889 00:42:47,022 --> 00:42:48,742 Speaker 3: shackled wherever you go and all the rest of it. 890 00:42:48,862 --> 00:42:51,382 Speaker 3: So in the once you've given your date, you are 891 00:42:51,422 --> 00:42:53,942 Speaker 3: then moved to this other section of the prison where 892 00:42:54,302 --> 00:42:57,502 Speaker 3: everything you need is in your cell. You have a shower, toilet, 893 00:42:57,902 --> 00:43:01,342 Speaker 3: you know, you've got TV, bed, everything basically is done 894 00:43:01,342 --> 00:43:06,102 Speaker 3: within the cell because essentially they want to keep an 895 00:43:06,102 --> 00:43:09,302 Speaker 3: eye on you. And this gentleman Tommy, actually in the 896 00:43:09,342 --> 00:43:11,702 Speaker 3: sort of last week I think is the last full 897 00:43:11,742 --> 00:43:14,382 Speaker 3: week before you're executed, you in fact have someone a 898 00:43:14,422 --> 00:43:18,462 Speaker 3: guard sit outside yourself, so you have literally no privacy whatsoever. 899 00:43:18,822 --> 00:43:21,462 Speaker 3: You're in a cell that's fully just bars, snow doors 900 00:43:21,542 --> 00:43:24,142 Speaker 3: or anything like that. And the reason for the guard 901 00:43:24,262 --> 00:43:27,062 Speaker 3: sitting there is to make sure that you don't kill yourself. 902 00:43:28,222 --> 00:43:30,502 Speaker 3: How ridiculous is that. They don't want you to kill yourself. 903 00:43:30,662 --> 00:43:31,422 Speaker 1: They want to do it. 904 00:43:31,622 --> 00:43:34,022 Speaker 3: They want to make sure they're doing it, So they 905 00:43:34,462 --> 00:43:38,382 Speaker 3: sit and watch you for a week, and then what 906 00:43:38,422 --> 00:43:40,222 Speaker 3: they call a white hat comes to get you, or 907 00:43:40,222 --> 00:43:42,582 Speaker 3: what this gentleman to I mean this he's talking about Florida, 908 00:43:42,742 --> 00:43:45,782 Speaker 3: but you know, so Missouri might be slightly different. But 909 00:43:45,822 --> 00:43:48,302 Speaker 3: he taught me through the process of Florida. He said, 910 00:43:48,342 --> 00:43:50,142 Speaker 3: a white hat comes to get you, which is a captain. 911 00:43:50,942 --> 00:43:56,182 Speaker 3: He said that they attach you to what they affectually 912 00:43:56,222 --> 00:43:58,982 Speaker 3: call a dog pole. It's apparently a long pole, and 913 00:43:58,982 --> 00:44:01,542 Speaker 3: they've got a couple of them, because obviously they're walking 914 00:44:01,542 --> 00:44:04,062 Speaker 3: you to your death. So you may decide that, well, 915 00:44:04,102 --> 00:44:06,102 Speaker 3: I've got nothing left to lose, I may as well see, 916 00:44:06,342 --> 00:44:08,222 Speaker 3: you know how many officers I can take out on 917 00:44:08,262 --> 00:44:10,622 Speaker 3: the way. And he said, with these poles, they've they're 918 00:44:10,622 --> 00:44:13,422 Speaker 3: set up so that if you do try and resist, 919 00:44:13,542 --> 00:44:16,462 Speaker 3: they basically twist them and it sort of cuts through 920 00:44:16,502 --> 00:44:19,342 Speaker 3: your wrists and stuff. So it's very brutal and you're 921 00:44:19,422 --> 00:44:23,302 Speaker 3: led to the chamber, and in Missouri, I've seen a 922 00:44:23,342 --> 00:44:25,542 Speaker 3: photo of the room that they're in. It's very clinical, 923 00:44:25,782 --> 00:44:30,662 Speaker 3: very stale sort of looking room with a bed with 924 00:44:30,822 --> 00:44:33,782 Speaker 3: straps on it, and you're placed obviously onto the bed 925 00:44:33,822 --> 00:44:36,462 Speaker 3: you're strapped in. There's a phone on the wall, and 926 00:44:36,502 --> 00:44:39,022 Speaker 3: that phone is for the I think it's for It's 927 00:44:39,022 --> 00:44:42,062 Speaker 3: either for the attorney general or for the governor, but 928 00:44:42,222 --> 00:44:45,702 Speaker 3: essentially that's the phone call that either says yep, all 929 00:44:45,702 --> 00:44:49,382 Speaker 3: good or no, where we're taking back sort of thing. 930 00:44:49,822 --> 00:44:53,862 Speaker 3: Phone rings yep, go ahead with it, and you're asked 931 00:44:53,942 --> 00:44:57,102 Speaker 3: any final words, and in the state of Missouri has 932 00:44:57,102 --> 00:45:01,022 Speaker 3: said that it's an injection, two injections. I believe Marcellus 933 00:45:01,062 --> 00:45:04,742 Speaker 3: would have had a white sheet pulled over him up 934 00:45:04,782 --> 00:45:07,702 Speaker 3: to his neck so and his face is showing and yeah, 935 00:45:08,102 --> 00:45:11,982 Speaker 3: that's it, basically says his last words. And you have 936 00:45:12,062 --> 00:45:15,662 Speaker 3: the gallery obviously watching on his son, watching on his 937 00:45:15,702 --> 00:45:17,302 Speaker 3: son said he was always going to be there with him. 938 00:45:18,302 --> 00:45:21,982 Speaker 1: You kind of joined the fight to try and get 939 00:45:22,022 --> 00:45:24,062 Speaker 1: him off death row. Towards the end there you were 940 00:45:24,142 --> 00:45:27,902 Speaker 1: kind of calling out to your listeners as well. How 941 00:45:27,902 --> 00:45:31,382 Speaker 1: did you feel when that death date did actually come. 942 00:45:31,862 --> 00:45:34,062 Speaker 3: It was very weird. Like, as I said, I haven't 943 00:45:34,142 --> 00:45:36,422 Speaker 3: I didn't build the sort of relationship with him that 944 00:45:36,502 --> 00:45:38,782 Speaker 3: I have with a number of other people I've spoken to. 945 00:45:38,822 --> 00:45:41,062 Speaker 3: You know, some people I've speaking with for nearly three years. 946 00:45:41,782 --> 00:45:43,582 Speaker 3: We speak quite regularly, so I've got quite a strong 947 00:45:43,622 --> 00:45:46,222 Speaker 3: relationship with a number of people are incarcerated. But for him, 948 00:45:46,222 --> 00:45:48,902 Speaker 3: it was a much shorter period of time, and I 949 00:45:48,902 --> 00:45:52,702 Speaker 3: did feel strongly about not wanting him to be killed. 950 00:45:52,702 --> 00:45:55,342 Speaker 3: So I was rallying people to try and sign the 951 00:45:55,422 --> 00:45:58,022 Speaker 3: petitions and stuff like that, and then I was sitting 952 00:45:58,102 --> 00:46:01,822 Speaker 3: watching there as a visual happening outside the present where 953 00:46:01,942 --> 00:46:03,782 Speaker 3: it was being taken place, and I was watching that, 954 00:46:04,302 --> 00:46:06,542 Speaker 3: and everyone's sort of obviously hoping for that last stay. 955 00:46:07,422 --> 00:46:09,342 Speaker 3: You sit there waiting and waiting and waiting, and then 956 00:46:09,382 --> 00:46:12,102 Speaker 3: eventually someone says, you know, oh, the witnesses are now 957 00:46:12,102 --> 00:46:14,822 Speaker 3: coming out, which means it's happened. And then the statement 958 00:46:14,822 --> 00:46:17,942 Speaker 3: gets put out that it's you know, it happened. It's 959 00:46:18,062 --> 00:46:21,902 Speaker 3: very weird, very weird. Especially I put together a little 960 00:46:23,222 --> 00:46:26,022 Speaker 3: little thing, a little package from him and I his interview, 961 00:46:26,062 --> 00:46:29,942 Speaker 3: and that was weird listening to the conversation knowing that 962 00:46:29,982 --> 00:46:32,902 Speaker 3: he was no longer around, and he passed just literally 963 00:46:33,422 --> 00:46:35,542 Speaker 3: an hour prior. And you know, this is a little 964 00:46:35,582 --> 00:46:37,182 Speaker 3: bit at the end of our chat, is you know, 965 00:46:37,342 --> 00:46:39,262 Speaker 3: he said, I said, then, I thanks so much. Indeed, 966 00:46:39,342 --> 00:46:41,662 Speaker 3: was really lovely to chat with you, and we'll speak soon. 967 00:46:41,782 --> 00:46:43,702 Speaker 3: And he just said, God willing, lovely to talk to 968 00:46:43,702 --> 00:46:49,542 Speaker 3: you too. Nice meeting you, meeting you, of meeting you too, sir, 969 00:46:49,582 --> 00:46:50,782 Speaker 3: and I will talk to you very soon. 970 00:46:52,302 --> 00:46:54,542 Speaker 4: All right, we'll take her bye bye. 971 00:46:57,022 --> 00:46:58,822 Speaker 3: And yeah, it was just weird, you know. I mean, 972 00:46:58,822 --> 00:47:00,022 Speaker 3: I'm not going to sit here and say I was 973 00:47:00,062 --> 00:47:02,182 Speaker 3: balling my eyes out because I didn't know the man, 974 00:47:02,222 --> 00:47:06,702 Speaker 3: you know, but I did feel I felt a little 975 00:47:06,702 --> 00:47:11,102 Speaker 3: bit guilty. I suppose in a way, you know, I 976 00:47:11,142 --> 00:47:13,022 Speaker 3: feel guilty about talking to it, you know, with a 977 00:47:13,062 --> 00:47:14,702 Speaker 3: lot of the stories I talk about, because I feel 978 00:47:14,702 --> 00:47:16,582 Speaker 3: like I don't want to you know, I'm talking to 979 00:47:16,622 --> 00:47:18,462 Speaker 3: these people and I always say to them, look, I 980 00:47:18,462 --> 00:47:19,902 Speaker 3: don't want to give you any false hope that being 981 00:47:19,902 --> 00:47:21,702 Speaker 3: on here is going to do anything to help the situation, 982 00:47:22,302 --> 00:47:23,662 Speaker 3: you know. So I suppose there was a little bit 983 00:47:23,662 --> 00:47:27,982 Speaker 3: of guilt that nothing I did really helped him at all. So, yeah, 984 00:47:28,222 --> 00:47:30,382 Speaker 3: it's a weird one very weird Did he. 985 00:47:30,382 --> 00:47:31,822 Speaker 1: Tell you how he felt about death? 986 00:47:32,462 --> 00:47:34,902 Speaker 3: Well, his religion basically was because I said to him, 987 00:47:34,902 --> 00:47:36,982 Speaker 3: I said, you know, obviously we've talked about his stays 988 00:47:36,982 --> 00:47:38,862 Speaker 3: and how he had multiple stays, and I said, that's 989 00:47:38,942 --> 00:47:43,142 Speaker 3: got to really mess with him mentally. You know, you've 990 00:47:43,142 --> 00:47:45,262 Speaker 3: had multiple stays of execution, and now you've got this 991 00:47:45,302 --> 00:47:47,342 Speaker 3: other one coming up. And you know, we all know 992 00:47:47,502 --> 00:47:50,662 Speaker 3: that we're going to die, but the other thing is 993 00:47:50,702 --> 00:47:52,502 Speaker 3: we don't know when whereas this is. You know, you've 994 00:47:52,502 --> 00:47:54,022 Speaker 3: got this date, this is when you're going to die, 995 00:47:54,062 --> 00:47:56,582 Speaker 3: at the time you're going to die. So that must 996 00:47:56,622 --> 00:47:59,502 Speaker 3: really strung you. Must you know mentally, it must be hard. 997 00:47:59,502 --> 00:48:00,942 Speaker 3: And he's like, well, yeah, like as I'm you know, 998 00:48:00,982 --> 00:48:03,982 Speaker 3: I'm normal like everybody else. I have anxieties and things 999 00:48:03,982 --> 00:48:06,822 Speaker 3: like that, but I've put my faith in in my faith, 1000 00:48:06,862 --> 00:48:09,382 Speaker 3: and you know, if this is what's to happen, then 1001 00:48:09,382 --> 00:48:12,982 Speaker 3: this is what's to happen. So you know, and you'll 1002 00:48:13,022 --> 00:48:15,502 Speaker 3: find there's a lot you know, there's there's a big 1003 00:48:15,542 --> 00:48:18,262 Speaker 3: sort of running joke about people who become religious in prison. 1004 00:48:18,782 --> 00:48:20,942 Speaker 3: You know, everyone sort of laughs or so says, oh, yeah, 1005 00:48:20,942 --> 00:48:24,542 Speaker 3: we go another one who's converted. But when you're at 1006 00:48:24,582 --> 00:48:28,542 Speaker 3: your darkest moment, you know you need something, You need 1007 00:48:28,582 --> 00:48:31,942 Speaker 3: some especially for people who have been wrongfully convicted. You 1008 00:48:31,982 --> 00:48:33,502 Speaker 3: need there needs to be really you need to feel 1009 00:48:33,502 --> 00:48:34,662 Speaker 3: like there's a reason why. 1010 00:48:35,022 --> 00:48:37,462 Speaker 1: There's obviously been a lot of outrage. This has been 1011 00:48:37,462 --> 00:48:40,102 Speaker 1: getting a lot of media headlines, probably not as many 1012 00:48:40,102 --> 00:48:42,302 Speaker 1: as you would expect down under. 1013 00:48:42,582 --> 00:48:44,582 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean you've got one article in news 1014 00:48:44,582 --> 00:48:46,822 Speaker 3: dot com. I think once once he'd been killed, but 1015 00:48:46,902 --> 00:48:49,222 Speaker 3: even in the own country. But that's how fickle our 1016 00:48:49,222 --> 00:48:50,822 Speaker 3: news cycle is, though, isn't it. Because I mean it 1017 00:48:50,902 --> 00:48:53,422 Speaker 3: was huge for a couple of days, and then we 1018 00:48:53,542 --> 00:48:55,742 Speaker 3: move on something else, is you know, Donald Trump said 1019 00:48:55,742 --> 00:48:58,662 Speaker 3: something stupid or you know, and we move on. Someone 1020 00:48:58,662 --> 00:49:00,022 Speaker 3: actually asked me that day I did it, was doing 1021 00:49:00,062 --> 00:49:01,502 Speaker 3: a Q and A on my show, and they said, 1022 00:49:02,382 --> 00:49:04,902 Speaker 3: do you know if anyone's going after the state or 1023 00:49:04,982 --> 00:49:08,262 Speaker 3: anyone for going ahead with the execution? And I said, 1024 00:49:08,382 --> 00:49:10,742 Speaker 3: I thought about this myself. I wonder if people are 1025 00:49:10,782 --> 00:49:13,142 Speaker 3: still going to try and prove his innocence. You know, 1026 00:49:13,182 --> 00:49:16,782 Speaker 3: obviously he's got family and I'm sure they would love 1027 00:49:16,822 --> 00:49:18,502 Speaker 3: to keep doing that, but you can't do that without 1028 00:49:18,662 --> 00:49:21,382 Speaker 3: legal help. And you just wonder whether or not the 1029 00:49:21,422 --> 00:49:23,462 Speaker 3: Innocence Project They've got so many, so much work on, 1030 00:49:23,502 --> 00:49:25,382 Speaker 3: they probably like can't do. 1031 00:49:25,382 --> 00:49:27,062 Speaker 1: Much now, still trying to save people. 1032 00:49:27,182 --> 00:49:29,502 Speaker 3: And you wonder if anyone ever will try and fully 1033 00:49:29,502 --> 00:49:30,142 Speaker 3: clear his name. 1034 00:49:30,662 --> 00:49:33,622 Speaker 1: Why why are these cases not getting more attention or 1035 00:49:33,622 --> 00:49:34,622 Speaker 1: more prolonged attention. 1036 00:49:35,222 --> 00:49:38,502 Speaker 3: People don't care. But if I think about it, before 1037 00:49:38,582 --> 00:49:40,382 Speaker 3: I got into what I do now, I didn't give 1038 00:49:40,422 --> 00:49:42,902 Speaker 3: people in prison a second thought. You know, I didn't 1039 00:49:42,902 --> 00:49:44,902 Speaker 3: think about people in prison. I was of the opinion, 1040 00:49:44,902 --> 00:49:46,702 Speaker 3: if you're in prison, you did something wrong, you deserve 1041 00:49:46,742 --> 00:49:49,062 Speaker 3: to be there. It's only now that I'm engrossed in 1042 00:49:49,102 --> 00:49:50,982 Speaker 3: it all the time and I'm seeing these things. You know, 1043 00:49:51,022 --> 00:49:53,982 Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty five people already this year have 1044 00:49:54,062 --> 00:49:58,382 Speaker 3: been exonerated, you know, of twenty years, thirty years, you know, 1045 00:49:58,542 --> 00:50:02,422 Speaker 3: Christopher Dunn, thirty five, I think, thirty three, thirty four years, 1046 00:50:02,422 --> 00:50:04,902 Speaker 3: something like that. You know, there's been it's just but 1047 00:50:05,022 --> 00:50:06,982 Speaker 3: it just gets no attention, or it might be in 1048 00:50:07,022 --> 00:50:09,342 Speaker 3: the news that night, and then they move on. And 1049 00:50:09,382 --> 00:50:13,182 Speaker 3: these people aren't even eligible for compensation most of the 1050 00:50:13,262 --> 00:50:16,022 Speaker 3: time either, And that blows my mind. You know, they 1051 00:50:16,022 --> 00:50:16,862 Speaker 3: have to fight for that. 1052 00:50:17,342 --> 00:50:19,942 Speaker 1: But then there's stories like the Menendez brothers, and they've 1053 00:50:19,982 --> 00:50:22,102 Speaker 1: been in the headlines for months now. 1054 00:50:22,262 --> 00:50:25,222 Speaker 3: Netflix effect in it M true. Yeah, if you get 1055 00:50:25,222 --> 00:50:27,382 Speaker 3: a documentary made, you're probably going to get more attention. 1056 00:50:27,582 --> 00:50:29,782 Speaker 1: So do you think this will have any effect on 1057 00:50:29,782 --> 00:50:32,982 Speaker 1: Missouri that they'll change, They'll want to change, they will 1058 00:50:33,022 --> 00:50:34,622 Speaker 1: be affected by all the bad press. 1059 00:50:35,102 --> 00:50:37,022 Speaker 3: No, I mean the governor. If you look at the 1060 00:50:37,022 --> 00:50:41,702 Speaker 3: governor's Instagram or Facebook page after this happened. I mean, 1061 00:50:42,542 --> 00:50:44,222 Speaker 3: I don't know why he didn't turn comments off because 1062 00:50:44,262 --> 00:50:46,902 Speaker 3: it was just insane. So I don't know whether or 1063 00:50:46,902 --> 00:50:50,302 Speaker 3: not he might get re elected or who knows, he 1064 00:50:50,982 --> 00:50:53,542 Speaker 3: may not get relected the next time round. You know that. 1065 00:50:53,782 --> 00:50:56,382 Speaker 3: Andrew Bailey, the Attorney General, I mean, he's still going 1066 00:50:56,462 --> 00:50:59,222 Speaker 3: about his business, you know, speaking of Christopher Dune. I 1067 00:50:59,222 --> 00:51:01,222 Speaker 3: spoke to Christopher yesterday, who's now out of prison. But 1068 00:51:01,502 --> 00:51:03,422 Speaker 3: I said to him, and how things going goes? Oh, well, 1069 00:51:03,462 --> 00:51:05,982 Speaker 3: the attorney general's appealing to get me put back in 1070 00:51:06,022 --> 00:51:10,262 Speaker 3: prison and he's been exonerated. It's like, dude, you know, 1071 00:51:10,622 --> 00:51:13,502 Speaker 3: move on. So No, I don't think it will change 1072 00:51:13,502 --> 00:51:15,902 Speaker 3: anything at all, you know, you know, I always say 1073 00:51:16,062 --> 00:51:18,302 Speaker 3: to my American audience, that I've never I don't mean 1074 00:51:18,342 --> 00:51:20,702 Speaker 3: to attack your country because no one's got it right, 1075 00:51:20,742 --> 00:51:22,622 Speaker 3: you know, everyone's got it. You know. I think we've 1076 00:51:22,622 --> 00:51:25,822 Speaker 3: all got terrible legal systems. But I think when it's 1077 00:51:25,902 --> 00:51:30,542 Speaker 3: so ingrained in a society, like their gun situation, that's 1078 00:51:30,822 --> 00:51:34,382 Speaker 3: never going to change. No, they're too far gone, you know. 1079 00:51:34,462 --> 00:51:38,622 Speaker 3: And America has the highest incarceration rate in the world, 1080 00:51:39,542 --> 00:51:41,782 Speaker 3: in the world, like two million people in cart Rut. 1081 00:51:41,902 --> 00:51:45,102 Speaker 1: But the Australian justice system, we should give it props 1082 00:51:45,222 --> 00:51:47,622 Speaker 1: in comparison here because one, we don't have the death penalty, 1083 00:51:47,862 --> 00:51:50,422 Speaker 1: which I mean I don't believe in. I can see 1084 00:51:50,422 --> 00:51:52,422 Speaker 1: that you don't believe in the death penalty. But two, 1085 00:51:53,102 --> 00:51:56,422 Speaker 1: we don't elect our attorney generals. They get there on merit. 1086 00:51:56,942 --> 00:51:59,262 Speaker 1: So I mean there's two positives in our corner. We 1087 00:52:00,182 --> 00:52:04,022 Speaker 1: hopefully don't see as many cases of people wrongfully convicted. 1088 00:52:04,142 --> 00:52:07,382 Speaker 3: I would hope Norway. In those countries they've got phenomenal 1089 00:52:07,622 --> 00:52:10,022 Speaker 3: you know. You know, they're closing prisons. You know, you 1090 00:52:10,062 --> 00:52:11,942 Speaker 3: want to look a country that's doing it right. They're 1091 00:52:11,982 --> 00:52:16,302 Speaker 3: closing prisons because their recidivism rate is dropping dramatically. But 1092 00:52:16,342 --> 00:52:17,862 Speaker 3: then again, we don't have it I think we're of 1093 00:52:17,862 --> 00:52:19,822 Speaker 3: the other way. I think we're too soft in some respects, 1094 00:52:19,902 --> 00:52:21,822 Speaker 3: you know, because people always say to me, all you say, 1095 00:52:22,262 --> 00:52:24,782 Speaker 3: what do you want? There's no prisons and lardy dark no, no, no. 1096 00:52:24,902 --> 00:52:26,182 Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of people that should be 1097 00:52:26,182 --> 00:52:27,942 Speaker 3: in prison. In fact, a lot of them live around 1098 00:52:27,942 --> 00:52:31,302 Speaker 3: my area. But you know, I don't think anyway has 1099 00:52:31,342 --> 00:52:33,022 Speaker 3: got it right. I just think, you know, America is 1100 00:52:33,222 --> 00:52:36,302 Speaker 3: just insane. They hand out years like it's days. As 1101 00:52:36,342 --> 00:52:38,142 Speaker 3: one of my prisoners I spoke to once said to me, 1102 00:52:38,262 --> 00:52:40,622 Speaker 3: as they hand out years like it's days, you know, 1103 00:52:40,782 --> 00:52:42,102 Speaker 3: the guy is going to be talking to you very soon. 1104 00:52:42,142 --> 00:52:44,262 Speaker 3: It's got twelve hundred years sentenced. 1105 00:52:44,022 --> 00:52:45,462 Speaker 1: Twelve hundred years. 1106 00:52:45,982 --> 00:52:48,502 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's crazy. You know, I've got another guy who's 1107 00:52:48,542 --> 00:52:52,902 Speaker 3: got life plus one hundred and three just in case, 1108 00:52:53,022 --> 00:52:54,982 Speaker 3: you know, reincarnation and all that sort of stuff. 1109 00:52:55,102 --> 00:52:59,262 Speaker 1: I guess it just really makes you question the justice system. 1110 00:52:59,542 --> 00:53:01,782 Speaker 1: And I know that we're in Australia, so you know, 1111 00:53:01,982 --> 00:53:04,742 Speaker 1: if we were to be convicted of a crime, it 1112 00:53:04,742 --> 00:53:07,462 Speaker 1: would be in Australia. But it really does make you question, 1113 00:53:07,542 --> 00:53:10,582 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, how things like this can still happen. 1114 00:53:10,702 --> 00:53:12,782 Speaker 3: And That's what I say all the time, like, how 1115 00:53:12,862 --> 00:53:14,862 Speaker 3: is this still happening in twenty twenty four. But again, 1116 00:53:14,942 --> 00:53:17,462 Speaker 3: going back to the sheer volume of people who are 1117 00:53:17,502 --> 00:53:21,502 Speaker 3: incarcerated in America just means that the courts are just 1118 00:53:21,542 --> 00:53:24,262 Speaker 3: so overwhelmed that half the time they're not even reading 1119 00:53:24,702 --> 00:53:27,462 Speaker 3: the cases. They're just rubber stamping, you know, people putting 1120 00:53:27,462 --> 00:53:29,422 Speaker 3: through appeals, so they're just getting rubber stamped. I've got 1121 00:53:29,422 --> 00:53:31,702 Speaker 3: an attorney who joins me on the show every time 1122 00:53:31,702 --> 00:53:33,662 Speaker 3: we cover a case to give his opinion, so I'm 1123 00:53:33,662 --> 00:53:35,902 Speaker 3: not being completely biased. And you know, he comes with 1124 00:53:35,942 --> 00:53:37,622 Speaker 3: a clear head and says, well, hold on a second, 1125 00:53:37,702 --> 00:53:40,222 Speaker 3: let's look at this. But even he says, you know, 1126 00:53:40,262 --> 00:53:42,022 Speaker 3: in some cases he just shakes his head and he 1127 00:53:42,062 --> 00:53:44,742 Speaker 3: just goes And I say, I don't understand, Michael. How 1128 00:53:44,822 --> 00:53:46,782 Speaker 3: is someone not higher up in power looking at this 1129 00:53:46,862 --> 00:53:48,742 Speaker 3: and going, oh, actually, there's some issues here. Because you're 1130 00:53:48,742 --> 00:53:50,622 Speaker 3: telling me there's issues here. You're telling me there's great 1131 00:53:50,702 --> 00:53:52,942 Speaker 3: arguments for this person to be released, he said, because 1132 00:53:52,982 --> 00:53:56,022 Speaker 3: they're just not reading it. They get a top page, 1133 00:53:56,262 --> 00:53:59,462 Speaker 3: which is generally from the prosecutor why this person was convicted, 1134 00:53:59,622 --> 00:54:03,022 Speaker 3: and they go, oh, yeah, sounds plausible boom stamp denied, 1135 00:54:03,222 --> 00:54:03,862 Speaker 3: and away we go. 1136 00:54:07,622 --> 00:54:09,782 Speaker 1: Thanks to Jack for helping us to tell this story. 1137 00:54:10,422 --> 00:54:13,382 Speaker 1: Our Crime Conversations is a Muma MEA podcast hosted and 1138 00:54:13,382 --> 00:54:16,662 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio 1139 00:54:16,702 --> 00:54:19,902 Speaker 1: design by Tom Lyon. Thanks so much for listening. I'll 1140 00:54:19,902 --> 00:54:22,502 Speaker 1: be back next week with another true crime Conversation